Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
|
The stink is....there's a company claiming to be a "different" kind of guide service and posting links on their website in order to appear affiliated with the AMGA and the Access Fund, but in fact they aren't. Definitely, deceptive and misleading. Shady!! If you're going to guide there ought to be some oversight and regulation to ensure client safety. There doesn't appear to be any credentials and/or evidence that Rock Climb Every Day has certification or permits in place for the locations they conduct classes.
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 12:04am PT
|
Ok, I hear what you're saying but I don't see your point still.
How does having a link to a worthwhile program with no other modifier (such as other wording) make it seem like they are affiliated? I agree that it could be misconstrued, if you were a total idiot, but I don't see an outright fabrication here that really warranted a call to AMGA. I think a heads up to the actual enforcement entities (NPS etc.) would be much more effective.
I've had a link to the Access Fund and other outdoor related programs on websites of mine before. Because I support them and what they do - not to claim I was affiliated with them.
Does that make me wrong as well?
If they had ANY wording in that link section that indicated in any way that they were affiliated, I'd agree with you. Again, please note that I agree with you 100% that illegal guiding should be eradicated whenever possible.
I find it kind of interesting though, that you seem to feel that all legal guiding services have to be AMGa certified to be safe. In Vegas, the only requirement for guides as per BLM requirements is that they have First Aid certs. Are you saying that due to that, all the guides here are unsafe?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 04:02am PT
|
I am sure they are nice people, but from my info neither has ever lead a multi pitch trad route. They have only been climbing roughly 2 years and definitely don't have a permit to guide here in JTNP. All the reputable guide schools have their permits in order etc.
Not listing the guides or their qualifications is a bit questionable in my opinion. I also have to wonder if they have liability insurance.
The whole setup seems pretty sketchy to me.
|
|
rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 05:36am PT
|
No, I'm not suggesting that all guides need to be AMGA to be safe, but just having a 1st aid certification doesn't seem to be a high enough standard either. At least the AMGA requires a minimum level of experience, training, and 1st aid. Before having a surgery, typically, a second opinion or a call to the state medical board or AMA is prudent to verify that the surgeon is in good standing and doesn't have a record of botched procedures. Calling the AMGA, AAC, or another local guide to verify this companies qualifications just seemed wise. As the saying goes "Caveat Emptor" (let the buyer beware). No one I've talked to seems to know their history or their qualifications. Like Rlf says pretty sketchy.
|
|
Olga_i
Trad climber
Ontario, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
|
Good Lord, I had no idea there were so many rumors of us all over the internet, but I guess any press, good or bad, must mean our marketing is working.
To answer some of the questions posted on this forum about RCED. Most people have never heard of us, because we officially launched in January 2014. We were in business a few months before then, but moved our official release date to January 2014 to ensure all compliance.
Do we have permits in place on every National Park in California? No. We have a few, not everywhere. We do have paperwork and pay taxes for every city we advertise in. This is where many get confused. We also own several private properties which allow us to have all legal rights to do what we do and we also teach in areas that don't require such.
How and why are we different? We have seen the growing number of guiding services now available. We have also seen and experienced the growing number of novice climbers that show up to the crags and put their life and others in danger. We saw a problem, and we took action. Our business model has been tailored to be different from all others. Yes, classes and teachings of fundamentals can be the same, but we don't stop there.
Do we need to give our entire business model to the word? No. It took a lot of time, money and effort to build RCED. It is not anybody's legal right to make such demands without being invested in the process.
Do ALL our guides have AMGA Certification? No. We DO work with AMGA certified guides also, but there are a lot of great guides out there that are not AMGA certified. We are not going to post on our website that our company or every single guide that works for us is AMGA certified, because that would be a lie. The day that AMGA becomes a legal requirement to guide, we will abide to such law. Is very simple.
Do our guides have CPR, FA, and WFA certifications? Yes. Some even have more than that.
NSP's and ANF's take on it? We have gotten several phone calls and letters from several park services in areas where we do not have a permit, caused by what I can only assume is people who have been on a mission to take us down from day one. It is only then that we have the opportunity to discuss with park services what we do, how we do it, where we teach and how we are not breaking the law. There has been instances in which a photograph is all it takes to trigger a domino effect, but we have been compliant. In the end, is to them that we need to answer to, not the general group of negative people that do not want us in business.
Do the owners have trad climbing experience? Yes. I saw a post someone wrote here, saying the opposite. I find it funny someone would write online about us, without actually knowing us. We trad climb and multi-pitch regularly.
How do the negative comments affect us? The good: the more people talk, the more about us gets around, so is nice marketing for us. The bad: well - it has always been the norm, in any community, to have positive and negative feedback. The negative feedback can be strong enough to run our efforts to the ground and eventually could cause for us to cut jobs, or even close. Who knows. Maybe the good will overcome the bad, and we will continue to grow and bring more jobs to our community.
I hope this answers most questions. I know that at times, answering certain things will not be possible for us without giving away trade secrets or confidential information, but we will do our best to respond to what we can.
Regards, Olga
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
|
Do the owners have trad climbing experience? Yes. I saw a post someone wrote here, saying the opposite. I find it funny someone would write online about us, without actually knowing us. We trad climb and multi-pitch regularly.
That's a very different story from what I have heard from someone who has climbed with you. I trust their opinions thoroughly.
The issue here is not bringing you down, it's all about your qualifications to be guiding and/or your ability to hire qualified guides. And I don't mean certified.
The guide market is now getting clogged by incompetent guides thanks to the PCGI and AMGA with their Single Pitch Instructor's type certs. It's a cash cow for those accredited to teach the class.
Best of luck to you.
|
|
rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
|
You nailed it Brick!
Olga sounds like the consummate slippery politician.......she yammered on for eleven paragraphs and aside from the First aid, WFA, CPR response managed to dance around answering any of the important questions. This company has a big "Stink" about it.
"We can't answer certain questions without giving away trade secrets or confidential information," and INCRIMINATING ourselves.
Bad press isn't good advertising.......again, Olga tries to put a happy face/positive spin on a business catch without certification and permits and taking advantage of loopholes.
Where are the certifications and qualifications? Where are the permits? Let's see proof, specifics, evidence.
Survey says........we smell a rat.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
|
Liability insurance is the biggy. One of the big reasons for permits is it takes the liability away from the governing agency. This way if you kill or injure one of your clients the land managers are clear. This is why they require liability insurance for your permit.
This whole thing sounds so shoddy.
|
|
Olga_i
Trad climber
Ontario, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
|
Brick - again, jumping the gun. Our Facebook post of Tahquitz is not a guided tour. We were out multi-pitch climbing with friends - for free by the way. We do that all the time. Is called "Climbing with friends".
rlf - Name the place and time and bring your trusting source along. I will bring my rack and partner. Let's plan a trip. I am always happy to get some climbing in.
Meeting people face to face always worked better for me than this endless internet gossip.
Regards, Olga
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
|
If there was any confusion or grey area at all in this situation, I think Olga did a nice job of clearing it up. Not in a positive light for their "company" but oh well. It was fun to play devil's advocate a bit, but I have no choice but to agree totally with the general consensus here.
As an FYI, this "negative attention being good for your marketing?" Guess what - Supertopo blows you out of the water on SEO. If people search for you, guess what's going to come up first?
By being quite clear that they are guiding without permits, have no experience to speak of, and all the other run-around BS in regards to their guides, they make it very obvious that at the very least they don't go anywhere that is actually worth climbing - maybe some choss pile in someones yard. It appears that you're going after new people, and I would guess that's more because you want to get people that don't know any better, as opposed to wanting to save people from getting hurt.
At two years in I was lucky enough to get myself and my partner up and down, and you're running a "guide" service?
If RLF's friend said that you don't know what you're doing, I would wager that you don't. It's pretty clear that you've already attracted the attention of the management authorities, if you have been hearing from them. And I doubt they would be contacting you just because some single person called complaining.
This is about the worst PR nightmare that you can get into, as many of the people who post here have a MASSIVE amount of pull in the community. If you have some proof to back up your business, quite frankly you would be an idiot not to produce it to protect your company.
Edit to add. If you post pictures of you out climbing with people on a company Facebook page then people are going to assume you're guiding there.
If you don't know that then you have an awful lot to learn.
I see this all the time with bandit river rafting companies - "If the authorities show up and talk to you, we are all just out as "friends," you didn't pay us."
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
|
Given enough rope...
these people, RCED, will hang themselves
.Hopefully no one will get hurt
or worse.before they get shut down.
It is the collateral damage that worries the general climbing community
The; One Bad Apple spoils the bunch. theory.
As was clear from your post, RCED, you have a very limited climbing history.
The gym does not count! none of your time in the gym counts toward outdoor climbing
expertise
YOU are the ones who need a climbing program or school or professional training.
Do not disparage the community that you claim to serve.
you want to make money off climbing novices what climbers call noObs
YOU ARE THE DEFINITION OF NOoB AND HAVE NO BUSSINESS TAKING ANYONE
././././.././././././././CLIMBING OR DISPERSING ANY INFORMATION ABOUT CLIMBING
That you will turnout incompetent and dangerous climbers is seemingly a given.
If the community here smells you than, I’m sure that it will rub off on any one that you take climbing.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
|
You have yet to answer any questions here.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 05:40pm PT
|
You are still obfuscating and not answering basic questions, while running a persecution complex.
Survey say: Sketch.
|
|
rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
|
Damn, Locker....that was priceless. I nearly fell on the floor laughing and spilled my beer.
Unfortunately, probably too close to the truth.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
|
Damn, Locker….that was priceless.
Come on.. thats a beginners pose. An advanced belayer would have something to prop his/her head on. Got to avoid the neck strain.
|
|
rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
|
John M.....you are wise beyond your years. Forgot about the neck strain, but with belay glasses neck strain is so passé. Also, no need to over think the situation as the implication is that the belayer is incompetent and more likely to suffer crushing trauma from dropping the climber on himself then straining his neck.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
|
Olga, all your claims are pure bullsh#t. Forget about guiding. Find a job as a spokesman for a politician. You are very adept at answering questions with no real answer.
Every place you have listed are owned by other people (read agencies). Without proper insurance they are potentially liable for your incompetence.
By the way, the person I spoke with took you and your husband and/or boyfriend to Tahquitz to climb Whodunnit. He wasn't willing to let either of you lead except for the last pitch which is basically a solo with maybe two 5.6 moves early on.
I have no interest in roping up with you. I guide for a living, I really am not interested in doing it for free.
My guess, a few well placed phone calls will bring the truth out. You're running a pirate guide service.
You shouldn't be running a guide service, you should be hiring one.
|
|
Olga_i
Trad climber
Ontario, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
|
Loker you crack me up LOL
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
|
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Being Mr. 5.13 has nothing to do with being a qualified guide.
Nothing to see here, just move along.
By the way, the Sierra Club is now sub contracting their climbing guide services out because of accidents due to the incompetence of their "guides".
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!