Rock Climb Every Day

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rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 12, 2014 - 09:03pm PT

Anyone ever heard of a rock climbing guide service...Rock Climb Every Day?
Can't find them at the AMGA.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Oct 12, 2014 - 09:24pm PT

Never heard of them until your post.

Did a search and found http://rockclimbeveryday.com

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

extraordinaire

Oct 12, 2014 - 09:57pm PT

Prune juice works just fine for me.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2014 - 02:53am PT

kunlun....Biotech...fortmental....thank you, very helpful. Have you seen all the S Cal locations they guide at? But has anyone ever heard of them? Has the AMGA heard of them?

Srbphoto

climber

Kennewick wa

Oct 13, 2014 - 08:04am PT

It is interesting that they don't mention anybody's name and experience on the site.

at least they are friendly outdoor enthusiasts.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Oct 13, 2014 - 09:01am PT

The website says they are in Ontario California, but the WHOIS data shows Ontario Canada, CANUCKS!!!!

Actually the website might be a ruse to sell gear

Domain Name: ROCKCLIMBEVERYDAY.COM
Registry Domain ID: 1835638504_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.tucows.com
Registrar URL: http://tucowsdomains.com
Updated Date: 2014-09-17 13:01:35
Creation Date: 2013-11-15 21:50:22
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2015-11-15 21:50:22
Registrar: TUCOWS, INC.
Registrar IANA ID: 69
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: domainabuse@tucows.com
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.4165350123
Reseller: Hover
Reseller: help@hover.com
Reseller: 416.538.5498
Reseller: http://help.hover.com
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Registry Registrant ID:
Registrant Name: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0136054514
Registrant Organization: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0136054514
Registrant Street: 96 Mowat Ave
Registrant City: Toronto
Registrant State/Province: ON
Registrant Postal Code: M6K 3M1
Registrant Country: CA
Registrant Phone: +1.4165385457
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax:
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: rockclimbeveryday.com@contactprivacy.com
Registry Admin ID:
Admin Name: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0136054514
Admin Organization: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0136054514
Admin Street: 96 Mowat Ave
Admin City: Toronto
Admin State/Province: ON
Admin Postal Code: M6K 3M1
Admin Country: CA
Admin Phone: +1.4165385457
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax:
Admin Fax Ext:
Admin Email: rockclimbeveryday.com@contactprivacy.com
Registry Tech ID:
Tech Name: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0136054514
Tech Organization: Contact Privacy Inc. Customer 0136054514
Tech Street: 96 Mowat Ave
Tech City: Toronto
Tech State/Province: ON
Tech Postal Code: M6K 3M1
Tech Country: CA
Tech Phone: +1.4165385457
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email: rockclimbeveryday.com@contactprivacy.com
Name Server: NS1.BLUEHOST.COM
Name Server: NS2.BLUEHOST.COM

Olga_i

Sport climber

Valley Village

Oct 13, 2014 - 06:47pm PT

Hi this is Olga and Carlos, owners and founders of RCED. Company is fairly new and very different from other guiding companies. We are not going to put up a wall of guides that are currently independent contractors with us (or as well call it “hall of fame”) for several reason… 1) is what everyone else does, 2) the number of guides we have available varies every season, 3) many more...

The business model has been tailored to be more on the simple side of things for both customers and us. I am currently looking for more help and will be posting several jobs on the new job board soon.

We are based out of Ontario, California - not Canada. Not sure where or why all that other Canadian info came on on that search someone else did.

Please feel free to contact us with questions.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Oct 13, 2014 - 07:54pm PT

Olga, thanks for being up front. Get ready for the flames. And, ignore them.

You are doing what many of us have dreamed of doing. I hope it works for you.

I sure wouldn't take it on. Lot of people want to learn to climb.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Oct 13, 2014 - 08:13pm PT

^ Jon, looks like its Tucows, the domain registrar for rockclimbeveryday.com, that's in Ontario, Canada. This kind of listing prevents the store/website owner's, sometimes home, mailing address from being listed on the internet. Good for basic privacy.

Website server is in Provo, UT.

I know you all are hoping to discover that Piton Pete is their (unadvertised, non AMGA) head guide, from the Ontario that's north of the border :-)

Olga_i

Trad climber

Ontario, CA

Oct 13, 2014 - 08:32pm PT

Oh Spider Savage, Thank you for your comment. It has been one of the nicest things anyone, beside our clients, have said to us in quite a while. Funny you mention, we just started getting the heat. We have gotten the nasties emails in the past week or so. Your advice comes to us with perfect timing. It has been quite the roller coaster ride. What you have said, really means a lot to all of us.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Oct 13, 2014 - 08:44pm PT

Olga, that you are posting up like this is a good sign. As Spider says, don't get sucked in by "trolls". Some people on the internet have nothing better to do than see if they can create trouble, and entangle and waste other's time.

Best of luck with your business. There's a big need for good training, especially with so many new climbers starting inside. People need to learn different skills to be safe on real rock in an outside environment :)

Olga_i

Trad climber

Ontario, CA

Oct 13, 2014 - 08:59pm PT

Kunlun_Shan, Thank you. We are keeping our focus and heads up, and people like you remind us what this is all about. Safety 1st, community, collaboration, education, and much more... Thanks again

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 04:40pm PT

Ha, Ha, Ha.....bad guess, Locker, that's just a link. Having a link to the AMGA doesn't mean an affiliation with the AMGA. The AMGA has no knowledge of this business and the AMGA representative indicated that there is a high level of "STINK" in the CEO, Olga, claiming to be certified, especially through the AMGA. Joshua Tree National Park, the San Bernadino National Forest, and the Angeles National Forest have NO "outfitter" permit on file for Rock Climb Every Day. Looks like a bootleg operation at best.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 05:03pm PT

Locker...what do they call a dumb cow??

An Oxy Moron!!!

Small minds are easily amused. You ought to know that.

But you digress. The point is that you can't assume that a business or individual is affiliated with another entity just because they post a link on their website. It's deceptive and misleading, and a poor business practice.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 05:17pm PT

Come on, Lock. Get your old butt off the floor and take this seriously. Someone could bet hurt or worse, badly injured by a wild cat guide.

little Z

Trad climber

un cafetal en Naranjo

Oct 16, 2014 - 05:30pm PT

rurprider, what's the deal? are you owner of a competing guide service? do you have a vested interest in this disscusion? full disclosure requested

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 05:34pm PT

Lil' Z...I just found the website while looking at Fixehardware, Backcountry, etc and saw all the trips and thought sh@t, that's a lot of business and wondered why we'd never heard of them before? RMI, Sierra Mountaineering Int'l, Yosemite Mountaineering, Vertical Adventures...we've seen them and know they're legit, but here's a company that leads tons of trips to Joshua Tree, Idyllwild, Barstow, Santa Clarita, Riverside,....but apparently has no affiliation with the AMGA ...just seems off. That's it. And I like messing with Locker 'cause he loves lost gear posts so much. What's your story...big guy??? Just surfing for a gooood time?

little Z

Trad climber

un cafetal en Naranjo

Oct 16, 2014 - 05:43pm PT

thanks for sort of answering my question, hope the disscusion continues

poor Locker, get's no respect, he's the Rodney Dangerfield of ST

edit. insert Cosmic manip here

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 05:56pm PT

Cool, Cosmic. I love "Parrotheads!" Middle aged, adolescents. Bring on the Jimmy Buffet stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBsPZV14I-k

We need more Cheeseburgers and less BS.

Vegasclimber

Trad climber

Las Vegas, NV.

Oct 16, 2014 - 07:02pm PT

Just took a look at the website. They have the AMGA in a link area called "Protect America's Climbing" along with the Access Fund and Friends of Joshua Tree. I don't get the impression by that, that they are claiming to be AMGA certified nor can I find any evidence they are claiming that anywhere on their site. I'd like to know where you see any evidence of the owners claiming to be so, to the point where you felt the need to talk to the AMGA and ask about it? I must be missing something, I'm not seeing the "STINK" you're referring to.

That being said, I would also like to know how they are offering all these "guided" trips when they don't seem to have a guide permit on file anywhere they say they are going. I don't like wildcat guiding services, people get hurt and then it makes all guides look bad. Not to mention it's too damn easy to starve to death trying to work as a certified guide as it is.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2014 - 07:25pm PT

The stink is....there's a company claiming to be a "different" kind of guide service and posting links on their website in order to appear affiliated with the AMGA and the Access Fund, but in fact they aren't. Definitely, deceptive and misleading. Shady!! If you're going to guide there ought to be some oversight and regulation to ensure client safety. There doesn't appear to be any credentials and/or evidence that Rock Climb Every Day has certification or permits in place for the locations they conduct classes.

Vegasclimber

Trad climber

Las Vegas, NV.

Oct 17, 2014 - 12:04am PT

Ok, I hear what you're saying but I don't see your point still.

How does having a link to a worthwhile program with no other modifier (such as other wording) make it seem like they are affiliated? I agree that it could be misconstrued, if you were a total idiot, but I don't see an outright fabrication here that really warranted a call to AMGA. I think a heads up to the actual enforcement entities (NPS etc.) would be much more effective.

I've had a link to the Access Fund and other outdoor related programs on websites of mine before. Because I support them and what they do - not to claim I was affiliated with them.
Does that make me wrong as well?

If they had ANY wording in that link section that indicated in any way that they were affiliated, I'd agree with you. Again, please note that I agree with you 100% that illegal guiding should be eradicated whenever possible.

I find it kind of interesting though, that you seem to feel that all legal guiding services have to be AMGa certified to be safe. In Vegas, the only requirement for guides as per BLM requirements is that they have First Aid certs. Are you saying that due to that, all the guides here are unsafe?

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 04:02am PT

I am sure they are nice people, but from my info neither has ever lead a multi pitch trad route. They have only been climbing roughly 2 years and definitely don't have a permit to guide here in JTNP. All the reputable guide schools have their permits in order etc.

Not listing the guides or their qualifications is a bit questionable in my opinion. I also have to wonder if they have liability insurance.

The whole setup seems pretty sketchy to me.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 05:36am PT

No, I'm not suggesting that all guides need to be AMGA to be safe, but just having a 1st aid certification doesn't seem to be a high enough standard either. At least the AMGA requires a minimum level of experience, training, and 1st aid. Before having a surgery, typically, a second opinion or a call to the state medical board or AMA is prudent to verify that the surgeon is in good standing and doesn't have a record of botched procedures. Calling the AMGA, AAC, or another local guide to verify this companies qualifications just seemed wise. As the saying goes "Caveat Emptor" (let the buyer beware). No one I've talked to seems to know their history or their qualifications. Like Rlf says pretty sketchy.

Olga_i

Trad climber

Ontario, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 01:02pm PT

Good Lord, I had no idea there were so many rumors of us all over the internet, but I guess any press, good or bad, must mean our marketing is working.

To answer some of the questions posted on this forum about RCED. Most people have never heard of us, because we officially launched in January 2014. We were in business a few months before then, but moved our official release date to January 2014 to ensure all compliance.

Do we have permits in place on every National Park in California? No. We have a few, not everywhere. We do have paperwork and pay taxes for every city we advertise in. This is where many get confused. We also own several private properties which allow us to have all legal rights to do what we do and we also teach in areas that don't require such.

How and why are we different? We have seen the growing number of guiding services now available. We have also seen and experienced the growing number of novice climbers that show up to the crags and put their life and others in danger. We saw a problem, and we took action. Our business model has been tailored to be different from all others. Yes, classes and teachings of fundamentals can be the same, but we don't stop there.

Do we need to give our entire business model to the word? No. It took a lot of time, money and effort to build RCED. It is not anybody's legal right to make such demands without being invested in the process.

Do ALL our guides have AMGA Certification? No. We DO work with AMGA certified guides also, but there are a lot of great guides out there that are not AMGA certified. We are not going to post on our website that our company or every single guide that works for us is AMGA certified, because that would be a lie. The day that AMGA becomes a legal requirement to guide, we will abide to such law. Is very simple.

Do our guides have CPR, FA, and WFA certifications? Yes. Some even have more than that.

NSP's and ANF's take on it? We have gotten several phone calls and letters from several park services in areas where we do not have a permit, caused by what I can only assume is people who have been on a mission to take us down from day one. It is only then that we have the opportunity to discuss with park services what we do, how we do it, where we teach and how we are not breaking the law. There has been instances in which a photograph is all it takes to trigger a domino effect, but we have been compliant. In the end, is to them that we need to answer to, not the general group of negative people that do not want us in business.

Do the owners have trad climbing experience? Yes. I saw a post someone wrote here, saying the opposite. I find it funny someone would write online about us, without actually knowing us. We trad climb and multi-pitch regularly.

How do the negative comments affect us? The good: the more people talk, the more about us gets around, so is nice marketing for us. The bad: well - it has always been the norm, in any community, to have positive and negative feedback. The negative feedback can be strong enough to run our efforts to the ground and eventually could cause for us to cut jobs, or even close. Who knows. Maybe the good will overcome the bad, and we will continue to grow and bring more jobs to our community.

I hope this answers most questions. I know that at times, answering certain things will not be possible for us without giving away trade secrets or confidential information, but we will do our best to respond to what we can.

Regards, Olga

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 04:10pm PT

Do the owners have trad climbing experience? Yes. I saw a post someone wrote here, saying the opposite. I find it funny someone would write online about us, without actually knowing us. We trad climb and multi-pitch regularly.

That's a very different story from what I have heard from someone who has climbed with you. I trust their opinions thoroughly.

The issue here is not bringing you down, it's all about your qualifications to be guiding and/or your ability to hire qualified guides. And I don't mean certified.

The guide market is now getting clogged by incompetent guides thanks to the PCGI and AMGA with their Single Pitch Instructor's type certs. It's a cash cow for those accredited to teach the class.

Best of luck to you.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 04:31pm PT

You nailed it Brick!
Olga sounds like the consummate slippery politician.......she yammered on for eleven paragraphs and aside from the First aid, WFA, CPR response managed to dance around answering any of the important questions. This company has a big "Stink" about it.

"We can't answer certain questions without giving away trade secrets or confidential information," and INCRIMINATING ourselves.

Bad press isn't good advertising.......again, Olga tries to put a happy face/positive spin on a business catch without certification and permits and taking advantage of loopholes.
Where are the certifications and qualifications? Where are the permits? Let's see proof, specifics, evidence.
Survey says........we smell a rat.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 04:53pm PT

Liability insurance is the biggy. One of the big reasons for permits is it takes the liability away from the governing agency. This way if you kill or injure one of your clients the land managers are clear. This is why they require liability insurance for your permit.

This whole thing sounds so shoddy.

Olga_i

Trad climber

Ontario, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 05:19pm PT

Brick - again, jumping the gun. Our Facebook post of Tahquitz is not a guided tour. We were out multi-pitch climbing with friends - for free by the way. We do that all the time. Is called "Climbing with friends".

rlf - Name the place and time and bring your trusting source along. I will bring my rack and partner. Let's plan a trip. I am always happy to get some climbing in.

Meeting people face to face always worked better for me than this endless internet gossip.

Regards, Olga

Vegasclimber

Trad climber

Las Vegas, NV.

Oct 17, 2014 - 05:29pm PT

If there was any confusion or grey area at all in this situation, I think Olga did a nice job of clearing it up. Not in a positive light for their "company" but oh well. It was fun to play devil's advocate a bit, but I have no choice but to agree totally with the general consensus here.

As an FYI, this "negative attention being good for your marketing?" Guess what - Supertopo blows you out of the water on SEO. If people search for you, guess what's going to come up first?

By being quite clear that they are guiding without permits, have no experience to speak of, and all the other run-around BS in regards to their guides, they make it very obvious that at the very least they don't go anywhere that is actually worth climbing - maybe some choss pile in someones yard. It appears that you're going after new people, and I would guess that's more because you want to get people that don't know any better, as opposed to wanting to save people from getting hurt.

At two years in I was lucky enough to get myself and my partner up and down, and you're running a "guide" service?

If RLF's friend said that you don't know what you're doing, I would wager that you don't. It's pretty clear that you've already attracted the attention of the management authorities, if you have been hearing from them. And I doubt they would be contacting you just because some single person called complaining.

This is about the worst PR nightmare that you can get into, as many of the people who post here have a MASSIVE amount of pull in the community. If you have some proof to back up your business, quite frankly you would be an idiot not to produce it to protect your company.

Edit to add. If you post pictures of you out climbing with people on a company Facebook page then people are going to assume you're guiding there.
If you don't know that then you have an awful lot to learn.
I see this all the time with bandit river rafting companies - "If the authorities show up and talk to you, we are all just out as "friends," you didn't pay us."

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 17, 2014 - 05:31pm PT

Given enough rope...
these people, RCED, will hang themselves
.Hopefully no one will get hurt
or worse.before they get shut down.

It is the collateral damage that worries the general climbing community

The; One Bad Apple spoils the bunch. theory.

As was clear from your post, RCED, you have a very limited climbing history.

The gym does not count! none of your time in the gym counts toward outdoor climbing
expertise

YOU are the ones who need a climbing program or school or professional training.

Do not disparage the community that you claim to serve.

you want to make money off climbing novices what climbers call noObs

YOU ARE THE DEFINITION OF NOoB AND HAVE NO BUSSINESS TAKING ANYONE
././././.././././././././CLIMBING OR DISPERSING ANY INFORMATION ABOUT CLIMBING

That you will turnout incompetent and dangerous climbers is seemingly a given.

If the community here smells you than, I’m sure that it will rub off on any one that you take climbing.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 05:35pm PT

You have yet to answer any questions here.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Oct 17, 2014 - 05:40pm PT

You are still obfuscating and not answering basic questions, while running a persecution complex.

Survey say: Sketch.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 17, 2014 - 05:43pm PT

OLGA_i

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 05:51pm PT

Damn, Locker....that was priceless. I nearly fell on the floor laughing and spilled my beer.
Unfortunately, probably too close to the truth.

John M

climber

Oct 17, 2014 - 06:50pm PT

Damn, Locker….that was priceless.

Come on.. thats a beginners pose. An advanced belayer would have something to prop his/her head on. Got to avoid the neck strain.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2014 - 07:06pm PT

John M.....you are wise beyond your years. Forgot about the neck strain, but with belay glasses neck strain is so passé. Also, no need to over think the situation as the implication is that the belayer is incompetent and more likely to suffer crushing trauma from dropping the climber on himself then straining his neck.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 07:46pm PT

Olga, all your claims are pure bullsh#t. Forget about guiding. Find a job as a spokesman for a politician. You are very adept at answering questions with no real answer.

Every place you have listed are owned by other people (read agencies). Without proper insurance they are potentially liable for your incompetence.

By the way, the person I spoke with took you and your husband and/or boyfriend to Tahquitz to climb Whodunnit. He wasn't willing to let either of you lead except for the last pitch which is basically a solo with maybe two 5.6 moves early on.

I have no interest in roping up with you. I guide for a living, I really am not interested in doing it for free.

My guess, a few well placed phone calls will bring the truth out. You're running a pirate guide service.

You shouldn't be running a guide service, you should be hiring one.

Olga_i

Trad climber

Ontario, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 08:41pm PT

Loker you crack me up LOL

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 17, 2014 - 09:22pm PT

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Being Mr. 5.13 has nothing to do with being a qualified guide.

Nothing to see here, just move along.

By the way, the Sierra Club is now sub contracting their climbing guide services out because of accidents due to the incompetence of their "guides".

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Oct 17, 2014 - 10:20pm PT

oh supertopo;.......must be friday night posting while drunk.

Maybe I can help sort some of this out....
I am personal friends with Olga and Carlos, who run Rock Climb Every Day. I have climbed with them and had an awesome time climbing with them.
Yes, they are a new company;....everyone has to start somewhere. I believe their guide company and services offered are awesome and wonderful;..they love climbing, are passionate about their quest and journey, and have lots to share. I believe that the people they have taken out climbing have loved their experiences with them and could tell you all about it! Olga and Carlos are "easy targets" for the supertopo lynch mob because they young, new, less experienced than the old guard, and up-and comers are easy prey;.....it's obvious while reading these posts.
I also was the one who climbed Whodunnit with Olga and Carlos;..they were strong , confident, safe, and yeah;..I did lead most of the pitches;...mainly on my request because it was their first time on Tahquitz;...NOT because they were incompetant or lacking in anything other than familiarity.......(just wanted to put that out....).....
anyways;.....I usually don't have much to say word wise on supertopo;...I mainly stick to just posting pics with a few words for captions...
I support Olga and Carlos and their company, wish them nothing but good luck and good fortune, and appreciate their awesome attitudes towards sharing their love and psyche for climbing.........I look forward to climbing with them more this year, and look forward to watching their climbing business grow, mature, and prosper. I'm sure if you have a legit beef with them or their business, they would gladly chat with you about it;..they are very up-beat and kind people who I consider my friends.

As for comments by rlf;.....most of you know;...he's a gnarly old school dude with a zillion guiding days;....if you are the new kid on the block;...consider it a "compliment" that you are being giving the "once over" by "the establishment"........(don't take it personal;.....he's rough and tumble with everyone;....and we wouldn't have it any other way.....would we....)..........

As for Locker;.....everything he says is gospel......word......

carlos ortiz

Trad climber

calif

Oct 17, 2014 - 10:31pm PT

We love climbing and dont mind sharing our passion for the sport. Thanks Todd for being "real". Here's to climbing together again. So Happy!

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 18, 2014 - 04:51am PT

I like Bob Gains .....

I, like Bob Gains, have now got quite a tummy.

I am sure this; my belly is karmic, because thirty years ago I questioned Bob's size

As well as a number of other great older climbers whose love of the good life,

heavy food, cheese, wine and beer had changed their phisychs (Physics + physiques)

From young Adonis to near Santa like size,

These are the gods of climbing, I am talking about
as they had aged some had grown, even become fat

I was a sprite, not much more than a shadow of my current self back in the day

Kor could have and did, knock me over when he exhaled

Bruce Hawkins stepped over me while I clung to holds below his need and he climbed right over me laughing and leaving me in Buttermilk dust.

There are some other similarities that Bob and I share, beyond our changing from
Hard men to hard men of sizable girth.

He guided rock climbing and so did I
He was friends with Todd Gordon, and way back when, so was I.
((hi Todd good to get the chance to finally say hello where did all your Great JTree pics go??))

As many have posted some very harsh barbs aimed at this new guide service,

I watched it ramp up to out of control.

At first I used restraint, then after a fast search and following this thread right into the fray I posted my best shot.

Not as mean as some.

but I regret ending my post with an unkind
right cross to the head

of the poorly (IMHO)named new group calling it self wrecked; well really RCED.

So Olga and Carlos I apologize
Good luck it is gonna be tuff.

Stay away from the Cheese Burgers, pizza and beer.

not all of us, like kamps did, keep, our vigor for all the long years ... cheers

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 05:53am PT

With all due respect Todd, the issue at hand here is not whether or not their nice people. I'm sure their nice people. "Sharing their love of climbing" with others, and charging for it is another thing. They are clearly running an illegitimate guiding service. We pay taxes is double talk for we're not permitted anywhere.

Again the liability insurance is a real big one. The guide service industry is growing. Land managers are starting to crack down on guide services that aren't permitted. There has been a lot of pirate guiding in the past several years. Here in JT, they have been asking to see guides permits. All's it's going to take is one bad accident from a "guide school " with no permits and it's going to impact us all.

If they want to run a guide school, fine. Do it properly.

Sorry folks but the days of wandering into the local eatery or pub to find a guide are over. We're under scrutiny and people like this are not helping.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2014 - 06:27am PT

Uh, contrare...... more like A GENERAL INQUIRY INTO REALITY thread.
While Olga and Carlos Ortiz maybe up-beat and kind and new at their day jobs, that doesn't legitimize running a pirate guide service, without the required permits, as rlf has stated. That's being "real."

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 12:07pm PT

Hey, I wish them the best of luck too. Just do it legitimately. Get the insurance, get the permits. More power to you.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 18, 2014 - 12:37pm PT

^^^^
Here, here.

It's incredibly frustrating to run a guide service legitimately, with all required operating permits, liability insurance, proper classification of employees (not as Independent Contractors), and have to compete against the dozens of pirates (knowingly or ignorantly) that run around the crags these days.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 18, 2014 - 12:44pm PT

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 01:33pm PT

It's incredibly frustrating to run a guide service legitimately, with all required operating permits, liability insurance, proper classification of employees (not as Independent Contractors), and have to compete against the dozens of pirates (knowingly or ignorantly) that run around the crags these days.

I really would not want Mark's job (my boss). He put's up with a lot of garbage. As a general rule, we go out, have a good time with the clients, get tipped and go home.

Notice how there is still the sound of crickets concerning any of the very direct questions?

Sorry Todd, and I appreciate your efforts to diffuse this. But are you really going to try and convince me that they are strong climbers but were on unfamiliar terrain is an excuse? Let's think about this for a second. How many of us have gone to areas we were completely new to and had no problems leading our share of a route?. Hell, the first time I went to Holcoumb Valley I did 13 routes in a day, and soloed 11 of them. Granted not very difficult routes, but I had no problems finding my way around.

This issue that the OP has brought up is still the same issue. We have two people running an illegitimate guide school. They are under cutting prices of legit guide schools. The clearly do not have the qualifications to be teaching anybody anything.

Todd Gordon

Trad climber

Joshua Tree, Cal

Oct 18, 2014 - 02:28pm PT

Robert;...for the record....on every pitch they both asked to lead;...but with three people on a long route and first time on Tahquitz;....I just said no and hogged all the leads. I just remember when I first starting climbing on Tahquitz;.....getting lost so often and off route....., I didn't want any "glitches" that would slow down a party of three on a 6 pitch route...that's all........I just figured that it was easiest and best this way;....and they could return and lead ALL the pitches next time.....which they have since done..........(I'm an old man and want things done MY way.........can you relate, Robert?.....)......as it turned out....everything went very smoothly and safely...and I had a blast on the climb!...

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Oct 18, 2014 - 02:45pm PT

Survey says!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Jawon

climber

Oct 18, 2014 - 05:34pm PT

Olga_i wrote: I hope this answers most questions. I know that at times, answering certain things will not be possible for us without giving away trade secrets or confidential information, but we will do our best to respond to what we can.

Please take this constructively, but I have to agree there is something not quite right.

I don't know RCED but my guess is that one of their "trade secrets" may be organizing and being a corporate sponsor of meetup groups (meetup.com). I apologize if that is sharing something you'd rather not have in public, but it's not much of a secret if some random joe can put 1 and 1 together thru the internet without even trying.

They host a lot of meetups (I believe some paid, some for fun) and I can see it is a cost-effective and accessible resource for beginners. Good for them for filling that market gap. However, Carlos himself says in his profile that he is a "beginner climber" (as of a couple years ago at most).

I have no skin in this game and I don't want to mess with anyone's livelihood, but on the other hand I CRINGE thinking about my children or their friends ending up with a guiding service like this. After multipitch climbing for 15 years I took a certified guiding course just out of curiosity only to realize how different climbing for myself and guiding is and how little I knew about guiding even after all those pitches.

I wish RCED the best of luck and kudos for sharing your passion with others, but please take things slowly and heed some of the input from experienced climbers and guides here. You are playing with people's sons and daughters.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2014 - 06:00pm PT

Wow, Jawon, that was AWESOME!!! You have gone far beyond adding 1 & 1 and applied some serious higher level math skills to connect the dots between the meetups and Rock Climb Every Day. That was some super sleuthing and a brilliant deduction. Looks like you saw through the business plan to take advantage of the potential pool of beginning climbers at meetups to cultivate clients and reap corporate profits. Glad you enlightened us all before someone's son or daughter got seriously hurt. Many thanks!!!

ThomasKeefer

Trad climber

San Diego

Oct 18, 2014 - 06:22pm PT

What is going on in that pic? There is the locker to locker clip using a PAS(?) and then it looks like there is a cinch belay device buried in there too ? What??

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 18, 2014 - 06:36pm PT

She's a guide. Leave her alone.

(Nice lycra.)

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 18, 2014 - 06:55pm PT

she is belaying the third (carlos?)up, locking biners chained(gives the third place to a clip in) Mr Gordon is Taking another wonderful Photo.
ugh! I am sorry to chime back in. I have not talked to Todd Gordon in 30yrs
I was very sad to see all his great JTree pics go away they were small rock heaven to me
whats that tag all about ?Day pass? park required seasonal pass
Yes the Gym crowd wants To go climbing outside.
things that make you go HMMM

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 07:14pm PT

Sorry Todd, but I'm not going to bow down to you or anyone else on this. These people are clueless. Good intentions, but clueless. As I, and others have pointed out over and over again, she has yet to answer one single question.

She claims experience she doesn't have. She's advertising services she cannot deliver much less has the expertise to deliver. She has no permits, she has no insurance. The only thing we do know is that she pays her taxes.

Based on what she posted on MountainProject, if this is a tough climb/tough decent, she needs a rope just to get out of the parking lot.

Posted on MountainProject, read the following:

Ok, I read all the comments on this multi-pitch route, and I didn't seem to find some very relevant information I wish I knew before the 3 of us went on this route.

First off, let it be known that the descent of this route is way too long. No comments or notes have been made of this info on the guide book or here. There are bolts behind the top on a ledge for an 80' rappel, BUT after getting down from that 80' rappel you are still way far from the actual ground level. There is a super long scramble down a lot of small and large boulders to get to the bottom. I wish we would have known this before we decided to do this complete route.

Bring small cams and tinny nuts, to set up your first belay station off the ground over a small ledge. You can choose to belay off the ground if you want to, but the first ledge is only about 15-20 feet up and only has one small crack to place all of your protection.

The off-width chimney on P3- all I have to say about this is, unlike everyone else's comments, I can pass on this particular pitch any day. This section was possible, but darn painful for skinny people like me that do not have enough back and butt padding to smear and put opposite pressure against the other side of the rock. Plus I am not a fan of long run outs, or not being able to place any protection. On this section, expect to put nothing, because is too far to reach when you are doing the off-width.

On P4 there is a traverse, so be sure to bring long slings for this one or else you will have massive rope drag. We had 2 ropes, since there were 3 of us, and pulling 2 ropes up that pitch without any rope drag is heavy enough.

Once you reach the summit, is not over... you have to down climb behind the rock to a large ledge. Don't put your hand on the wall hole to the left of the anchors! I did and woke up a bat that came out flying out and scared me half to death!

After rappelling the 80' wall, prepare to scramble your way to the ground a long ways. 350'-80' = about 270 feet of down hill scramble. Yep, that is no joke.

I love climbing and muti-pitches, but this was by far the most time consuming climb I have ever experienced.

Pitch 1 and 2 were great. Everything after that, I could do without. If we ever go back, ever, we will just rap off the 2nd anchor and move on with our lives.

Studly

Trad climber

Oct 18, 2014 - 07:19pm PT

I hate to break it to you guys, but any chick that wears lycra like that can charge as much as she wants.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 07:31pm PT

Haha! Todd Gordon called you guys out !!

Nobody got called out. And I can assure the conversation I had with him over the phone about this was quite different. He knows exactly what my position is, and he understands the lay of the land. He just doesn't like confrontation.

Let Olga get her paperwork in order then leave her alone !!

I don't believe she ever had any intentions of doing this. Maybe this will finally motivate her to start running a proper operation. I guarantee her rates are going to go up when get's a $12K bill for liability insurance.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 07:34pm PT

I retracted my response because it was inappropriate.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 07:50pm PT

By the way, the re-post from MountainProject was a year ago, almost to the day.

I did that decent in my sandals.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2014 - 08:28pm PT

OMG...have you checked out YELP, GROUPON, FACEBOOK, LIVING SOCIAL, TRIP ADVISOR.....
Olga and Rock Climb Every Day has taken their guide service to the mass media and look at all the photos of her clients and Olga guiding without permits throughout the S. California. To learn more just google; Olga, rock climb every day, Yelp.
Do the matching helmets tell you anything??

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 18, 2014 - 08:43pm PT

Yup, those pictures are from Trashcan and Atlantis Wall. But she informed the NPS that she doesn't guide here, she "guides in Joshua Tree".

What a crock.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2014 - 08:54pm PT

Check out the schedule for Rock Climb Every Day for Sunday, October 19, 2014. Olga is leading the Inland Empire Christian Rock Climbing Group to Santa Clarita. Twelve clients!! Does she have a permit? More fun gang roping a crumbly wall for $75/per, on public land, with no permit and no certification!!

Farming twenty-six different meetup groups for beginning climbers to join her Rock Climb Every Day classes. Not only is she a fraud, Olga's exploiting Christianity for profit.

Jawon

climber

Oct 18, 2014 - 09:07pm PT

Maybe the lesson here is that guides (of all things) need to be transparent. I'd prefer a guide who tells me they lack experience in a certain area so that I know in which situations I can trust them, over a guide who bloats their experience in indirect or unclear ways.

I hope you don't take this as a witch hunt, it's more that the life of a guide is somewhat under the limelight and imho rightfully so. I have the HIGHEST REGARD for successful climbing guides (I am not one) who have put in the miles and there is a level of integrity the industry deserves.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2014 - 09:58pm PT

Well put, Jawon. I too have the utmost respect for hard working guides with integrity, but that's not who we're working with at Rock Climb Every Day. There is no transparency and there is no integrity. Olga has told the authorities at Joshua Tree National Park that she is not running a guide service there, but we see photos on Yelp of her classes, all in matching helmets, enjoying climbs at the Atlantis Wall. There has to be some accountability, which means Rock Climb Every Day needs to follow the rules and regulations like the legitimate guide services, with the necessary certifications and permits.

Studly

Trad climber

Oct 18, 2014 - 10:29pm PT

Is that Rurprider or Rumprider, because it sure seems like....

little Z

Trad climber

un cafetal en Naranjo

Oct 19, 2014 - 06:12am PT

well, I will say they could have picked a better photo for their "Lead Climbing" advert. Looks like "Hangdog 101" to me. I'd think a "leader never falls" attitude would be better for outdoor beginners, at least to start, rather than the "let it fly" gym style. Of course I have no idea how they actually teach. Just sayin'...

Show me a photo of someome on the Bachar-Yerian. That's inspirational. That's the kind of leader I want to be. Teach me how to do, or at least aspire to do, that!

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2014 - 06:35am PT

Oh, Studly..... you big bad repressed beast...was that a case of parapraxes? If it's rump you subconsciously desire....here it is.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 19, 2014 - 07:27am PT

Nice buns.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2014 - 10:26am PT

Cosmic.....Olga could fit you with some Lycra and you could enjoy endless gang TR adventures. Just imagine the social gym-like experience.

ThomasKeefer

Trad climber

San Diego

Oct 19, 2014 - 10:27am PT

cragsman... If you find out you have, please let me know! I now feel like I have been missing out.

Back to my last post, is AMGA thinking biner to biner with a PAS on the lower biner (again, WTF?) exemplary guide behavior? I am genuinely curious since I have not checked back in to the textbook knowledge stuff and I have learned something on more than one occasion.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2014 - 05:21pm PT

Operating a pirate guide service in Joshua Tree.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 19, 2014 - 07:08pm PT

Still awaiting an honest response from Olga... Crickets...

Vegasclimber

Trad climber

Las Vegas, NV.

Oct 19, 2014 - 08:16pm PT

Yeah well my friend, people tend to shut up when multiple photos of them guiding illegally surface ;)
On a brighter note, the wife and I will be down to see you at some point this winter RLF. Maybe we should hire RCED to show us around! Hahahaah

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 19, 2014 - 09:12pm PT

Love to see you guys. Let me know!

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:30am PT

Olga, I hate big groups, Top Roping all the climbs at any given place.

I am glad I know about YOUR GUIDE SERVICE, cause if I ever walk up and see 20 -30 folks TRing the heck out of a place and its on NPS, State or BLM land... I will get motivated to become a snitch. I promise you.

Guy Keesee

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 20, 2014 - 11:59am PT

Just curious, what are the rules regarding large groups like MeetUp, boy scouts or college outdoor clubs in Jtree.

Although those groups are not being "guided," they create the same situation as a guide with large group. The last time I went to Jtree with a couple of beginners, EVERY "beginner" crag we visited was filled with this kind of group, and it was difficult to find a place where I could set-up a TR for my novice partners.

I know that I should just probably hike a few miles and find a deserted area, and I know that it is a public area and I should quit whining about crowds. However, I cannot help but wonder if JT would be a more enjoyable place if large groups like this were more tightly regulated.

Oh yeah, IMO pirate guides suck. Being a guide is a hard profession that doesn't pay a ton. The pirates make it even more difficult for the legit services to make a living, not to mention that they are basically stealing from all of us by not following the rules and paying to get a permit.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 20, 2014 - 01:03pm PT

1000's and 1000's of climbs in the park...

If anyone is coming upon a clogged, overcrowded area, then they're not paying attention to what the place offers...

You are correct.

Despite my efforts, I probably came off as a whiner in my above post. It was not my intention.

That being said, for a JT noob like myself, with limited time and partners that only climb 5.easy, it is not that easy to find places to climb. In that situation, I am part of the herd of gumbies. Based on that experience, I realize that the herd might be culled or made more manageable by regulating these types of groups.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 20, 2014 - 02:16pm PT

Thanks! I really appreciate that. Locker, you are the man.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 20, 2014 - 04:24pm PT

Groups can do pretty much as they please. The Boy Scouts have some large groups here in the winters down in Indian Cove. YMCA, etc all the same. If they hire a guide service, then there are restrictions on where we get to go if it's on weekends/holidays.

little Z has a point. Nobody but a competing top rope specialist gives a good goddamn.

You might want to think a little bit on that attitude. There are some broader issues here. This has nothing to do with top roping.

I'll give you a hint, think land managers, access, liability.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 20, 2014 - 04:53pm PT

Thanks for the reply rlf. I agree that it is not about top roping, and only slightly about crowds. IMHO, it is about access, RCED not paying their way and (probably) a pair of marginally experienced climbers selling lessons to noob's who really don't know any better.

FWIW, it really looks like these folks are running a guide service in JT with no permit.

This is from their website:

stormeh

climber

Oct 20, 2014 - 06:47pm PT

Man, you guys are really sh1tt1ng on this woman. I'm guessing the most vehement detractors have "pirate guided" at least several times in their lives, probably when they were new to guiding and couldn't cough up the money for permits and/or insurance.

rlf, what say you? Have you ever pirate guided in your life? Perhaps when you were just starting out?

I also find it funny how ST sh1ts all over AMGA certification but then seems to require it when they don't like a new guiding company, and says "look, these guys aren't even certified!"

I agree that in an ideal world, all guides should have proper certifications, permits, insurance, etc. But do you really have to be so harsh on someone that is trying to share their love of rock climbing with n00bs, and make barely enough money to survive doing it?

I feel like the old guard are the ones that are protesting the loudest in this thread, even though their entire guiding career was in the heyday when none of the things they are calling for were required.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 06:55pm PT

stormeh.....old guard, noob, man, woman.....who cares! The bottom line is Rock Climbing Every Day is operating a pirate guide service in a national park, and regardless of whether the detractors have done it or not, IT ISN'T RIGHT. Time for the Tar & Feathers!!!!!

edit...drljefe is soooo right. What a "BARNEY!"

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:18pm PT

I like the idea of The Cosmic Craigsman's School of Rock.

We could get an old school bus and paint it colors and stuff. Drive it out to the desert every weekend.

Get a busdriver that looks just like Manson.

$50 bucks a head, paid in cash, directly to Cosmic. Plus travel expenses and $5 for a cheap BBQ hot dog and a bag of chips.

BLM land only: Graffiti, broken glass, whatever.

And, they would get some good instruction, Cuz that dood does know how to climb.

EDIT: Motto " Yer just gonna die anyway. "

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:27pm PT

Nope, I have not. I learned a long time ago the problems and the stigma this creates in small communities. It has taken me a long time to become a member of this community. I have worked hard to get where I am today. Am I some kind of hot shot guide? Nope. I do my job well, and I take pride in the job I do.

I received a phone call from a friend of mine who lives in the L.A. area. He and some friends developed a small area with about 40+ sport routes. This was with their own money. They took the time to create established trails to the climbs, and maintain them.

There are now getting really worried the BLM will start seeing the vegetation damage etc and close the place down.

Then comes Olga. Apparently she has been bringing huge groups to an area that cannot handle that much constant traffic. Apparently the area is now getting trashed due to the amount of traffic. Lot's of new trails despite their efforts to keep it contained. Litter ect. They have tried to talk with her about this but she just isn't interested in listening.

Despite Todd's plea's of what a delicate princess she is, the more I am hearing the more I am realizing she could care less about anything or anyone other than herself.

The people who put these routes up are concerned because it's on BLM land. They never imagined somebody would start massively abusing the area like this. I trust his word.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:37pm PT

"IMHO, it is about access, RCED not paying their way and (probably) a pair of marginally experienced climbers selling lessons to noob's who really don't know any better."

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Same kinda bullshit happens in all kinds of professions, though. Caveat emptor, is the usual retort amongst those who don't have much of a stake in the whole affair.

To those who make it a career choice, though, and want to do the best work they can do, it really sucks having put all of time & effort into your career, only to be perceived by the customer as equivalent (and cheaper!) than some unskilled, well-intended, inexperienced upstart. (I'm not gonna mention REI's Outdoor School as being in this same vane. Ooops...I just did.)

Edit: " ...the more I am hearing the more I am realizing she could care less about anything or anyone other than herself."

I'm down with you most all the way, but to be honest, I don't get this sense about Olga. Her program is just another well-intended, naive, inexperienced 'guiding' program in our industry. Annoying, but not necessarily with ill intent.

TGT

Social climber

So Cal

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:40pm PT

vein

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 20, 2014 - 07:52pm PT

Apogee, I frankly thought the same thing in the beginning. But, the more I've been digging, the more I see her game. She has some very clever way's of skirting the system. She love's the meetup and groupon sites. She just says it's a day of climbing with friends. Yet, she is charging per head.

I've received some emails etc, not to mention the phone call that indicate to me otherwise.

She has completely refused to answer any direct questions. But she completely claims this huge complex that everybody is out to get her. I ain't buying it for a second.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 07:54pm PT

"Your So VAIN." You probably think this post is about you, don't you, you're so VAIN.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 20, 2014 - 08:08pm PT

I got almost no skin in this game and I go to JT only a few times a year, but I am curious about this. I have a few friends that guide (legally, with permits) here in AZ and know that the local land managers look don't like and go after pirate guides. With that in mind, I am curious how RCED gets away with it in a place like JT. She obviously doesn't have permits to guide there, and yet she is guiding. Does she just lie to the rangers? Does she have her "clients" lie too? How does it work?

That being said, tapping into the MeetUp system and helping people to move from gym to crag seems like a good business opportunity. One of you experienced guides should be ALL OVER THIS, and provide this potential customer base with the opportunity to learn from some legal and experienced guides. Then again, I have no experience with this market and I might be way off.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

Oct 20, 2014 - 08:09pm PT

What if I only want to rock climb on Thursdays?

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2014 - 08:19pm PT

Dave Kos.......as rlf has indicated previously, with minimal searching (Olga, Rock Climb Every Day, Yelp .... or Inland Empire Christian Climbing Group) you'll find that Olga has tapped into Yelp, Facebook, Groupon, Meetup, Christian churches, etc. She has left NO stone unturned regarding utilizing social media to tap into the potential for beginning climbers hungry to get out of the gym and TR in a highly social situation.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 20, 2014 - 08:23pm PT

What if I only want to rock climb on Thursdays?

I'm available. The only problem is that your young, smart, capable, and will out climb me :) I on the other hand am old.

As far as the marketing is concerned, that's up to the owners of the schools. Those groupon/meetup groups are bottom dollar at best.

jeff constine

Trad climber

Ao Namao

Oct 20, 2014 - 08:31pm PT

Take it easy Ben Chapman.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 20, 2014 - 08:42pm PT

I've said a number of times on this thread, all she has to do is get her permits and insurance in order and she can do whatever she wants to do.

DVS

Trad climber

Downey, Ca.

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:08pm PT

Anyone with connected brain cells should demand complete and total transparency from the organization that they are intrusting their lives to. If said company refuses to provide it, run as fast as you can in the opposite direction. I totally agree with the statement that this impacts the entire climbing community in a negative way. This is the kind of thing that ends up denying us access. Beyond that, if I were Bob Gains, or some other guide, I'd be pissed at the fact that I'm complying by shelling out the big bucks for a permit and insurance only to have some rogue outfit moving into my turf free of charge and with no credentials, and probably snaking potential clients with their cut-rate prices that they can afford to offer because they haven't spent the money to be in compliance. The first time someone gets hurt and land management gets sued, we'll all be impacted. The climbing community needs to come together and shut this down before they shut us down.

Studly

Trad climber

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:10pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:24pm PT

I disagree any bonehead can learn to do it you did. It's not rocket science. I think you could get a couple of college credits for what a day of guided rock climbing costs.

Jawon

climber

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:24pm PT

In all seriousness, there seem to be some reasonable charges here against RCED. As an unbiased observer, I'd say silence hurts rather than helps.

I'm not one to jump to conclusions, but I also don't have much appetite for people and businesses who try to sweep issues under the rug... or claim to follow the letter of the law but knowingly break the spirit of it.

If you are legal, how hard is it to respond? I have no skin in this game so maybe I should shut up, but it just rubs me really wrong when businesses are shady at the expense of their customers as well as other businesses trying to do things the right way. This does not seem to be a victimless offense.

So who's gonna start a "pirate guide" thread?

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:27pm PT

Awww, dammit.

It is vein.

I hate it when TGT is right about something.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:37pm PT

"She obviously doesn't have permits to guide there, and yet she is guiding. Does she just lie to the rangers? "

Report her & her group, the next time you or anyone else sees them in the Park. It would make my heart sing, along with many other legitimate operators. As mentioned, the Rangers have been more diligent in recent years about checking the SUA's of any organized group they encounter in the Park.

Without getting too far into the weeds, there are different types of operating permits for groups in JTNP. Traditional guiding operations fall pretty squarely within the Special Use Authorization system, but there are TONS of other users that climb in the Park under differing operating models...and there's several types of permits to accommodate them.

You can get a SUA for short term use....some groups operate under other organization's SUA's...some groups hold a different type of permit if they are more volunteer/non-paid in nature (i.e. Scouts, school/church groups). They pretty much have to follow the Park's requirement to have an AMGA or PCGI certified guide present, but there's lots of creative ways to work around that.

Groups like MeetUp probably fit into some weird gray area that the Park hasn't clearly adapted to (yet). Make some noise, though, and help put a light on it. We'd all appreciate it.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 20, 2014 - 10:50pm PT

Sorry, Apogee. I was not sure myself and had to look it up. I found...

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/in_the_same_vein

http://www.grammar-monster.com/easily_confused/vain_vein_vane.htm

This might be the fist time TGT has been correct about anything!

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 21, 2014 - 01:27am PT

the sad truth is the gym has moved outside

this is what has ruined the Gunks

Olga_i

Trad climber

Ontario, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 01:45am PT

Ok, is past midnight and I am just having the time a night to respond to all these posts. But not before I had to reply to some emails. Yes, we get emails too, from the same guys here and that one other area that was mentioned on this post, we supposedly bring large groups to and trash.

We understand the locals and that mentality to want to keep the crag to themselves, I know how that feels. I have been a local before, when I use to surf. We have made it a point to wait a while before we go back, so that the locals can come to realize is not us disturbing the peace and trashing the place. Funny we have even been accused of bringing a big dog into the area, when we don't even own a dog.

We are friendly and meet people just about anywhere. So when we walk into a crag, we see people we have met before at gyms or at other crags. We say hello to them, regardless of if we know them or not. This does not make us friends or guilty of bringing them to the crag.

The places we have been to recently, get frequent visits from motorcycle riders and teenage drunks. We do our share to pick up trash from trails, and we do our part in keeping natural resources and vegetation intact. All this talk about us bringing large groups that are trashing certain crags, is a lie. There may be some confusion as to what number of people we bring and how many of the many that visit the crag, on a certain day, are with us. There is nothing we can do about other visitors.

Like I told someone who emailed me earlier, trade secrets are not to be construed as illegal activity.

Everyone can jump into conclusions about Jtree, but we don't do guiding at the national park. We own land/property in the area and we have all the liability insurance and appropriate permits we need to teach where needed.

As someone here mentioned, Meetup is a great market all guiding services should be tapping into. Meetup is not a Christian network. Meetup is an online world-wide community based network founded by a man that was in NY, and lived there when 911 happened. He realized how many of his neighbors he did not know. How many people were forced together by the horrible event and decided to do something about it. He saw a problem with the community, and he tried to bring something to the world, a tool that would help organizers around the world bring community members together and meet. Simple as that.

About Meetup:
Meetup is the world's largest network of local groups. Meetup makes it easy for anyone to organize a local group or find one of the thousands already meeting up face-to-face. More than 9,000 groups get together in local communities each day, each one with the goal of improving themselves or their communities.

Meetup's mission is to revitalize local community and help people around the world self-organize. Meetup believes that people can change their personal world, or the whole world, by organizing themselves into groups that are powerful enough to make a difference.

I have been organizing events of many different interests for them for years. Long before the thought of RCED.

I was offered several guiding jobs before RCED and I introduced meetup to them as a networking and advertising tool. There is a group for just about any interest, from cooking to surfing, and all in between. And as we speak, there are some guiding companies that are using it already.

On a nice day, we may post a climbing outing for climbers and we limit number of RSVPs allowed for one event to 10 members. So if I am going with my husband, that leaves room for only 8 more people. RSVP lists rarely get full, so when it does, there may be 10 of us, in which case we will find a far away place that is not hit by crowds so we can climb together and not hog up routes. I have been to crags before, especially at Jtree, where you reach a wall you want to climb and a large crowd arrives only to hog up the entire wall without even to common courtesy of asking if we are going to climb a certain route. They simply walk up and drop their rope in front of you, as if cutting in the line would seem ok. We don't argue with people like this, we just educate them. We tell them, nicely, so that when the situation arises again, they don't repeat their mistake. We don't take it personal, because we know they need to be educated. Do they listen? I don't know. We do our share to educate and move on.

I also organize larger events, in which 20, 30 or even 50 people can attend, but these events are not related to climbing what so ever. Some are camping trips, some are weekend adventures, others are hiking. I have a camping trip coming up in Jtree, where I was able to get a campsite for 20 people. Out of that 20 people, only about 5 of us are climbers, and the rest are people that just like plain old camping, hiking, bird watching, star gazing, photographing, etc. So I am sure, there will be many assumptions on that trip and lots of talk about me bring 20 climbers out there - but that won't be the case at all.

Back to when we post climbing events, we expect everyone to already know all the fundamentals. Pretty much have the adequate experience or have taken the classes necessary to gain the required experience necessary to climb outdoors with us. Those climbing events are not business related, so basically we are just gathering with old friends, new friends, and strangers. Yes, strangers because this is what meetup.com is all about. You build a group based on a particular interest, you post your events, and anyone who has joined your particular group can RSVP to your event. Then we all get together, we sit down to talk and after getting to know each other and learning each new person's skill level we decide what to climb. All dependant on the group number of people, and level of skills. If we have some climbers that can only climb 5.5 and we have others that can climb 5.12s then we try and find some walls that can provide us all those options and in between. We don't charge anyone for this. This is where many people get confused. People are supposed to already have experience, bring their own equipment and if they don't have all the proper equipment they need to ask and if accepted into the event, they need to do their share to help carry gear in and out of the crag. Same goes for those beginners, we welcome at times - if such is possible and we educate them (not a class or guiding service) we simply tell them you need to get your own gear, do you have questions regarding what to get? Stuff like that. And even at times, we meet beginners that get to know us, like us, and trust us enough to ask when will our next class will be. This is one of the many reasons why we are different. We build relationships with people on a regular basis. We give people a change to get to know us first too. Tell me how many companies you know do that? Can you call anybody from any other company and say, "hey can I get to know you first for free?" or "hey, can I come out and watch you climb for free?" That is what we encounter on meetup all of the time and we call it an opportunity. There are many people out there that just want to come to climbing outings to get a free ride, and they show up with no gear expecting a belay and freeloaders left and right. We educate them, get your own gear, get experience, or get your free ride elsewhere. Simple as that.

We are a small and family operated business. We also take our family and friends out climbing with us for free. Just like any friend would for another. So just because you see a small group of orange or matching helmets, doesn't necessarily mean we are guiding.

Another reason why I see people get confused with meetup, these meetup invitations are open to our students. Once someone has taken a class with us, they are free to join any of our groups and go climbing with us on a personal level or even join us for dinner on a Friday night. Last Friday, when you were all here beating on us, we were out having dinner through a meetup event I organized and we met a lot of nice people. Some live close by, some live far away. Some were interested in what we do, as well as we were interested in what they do. And all of a sudden I have a new contact person for photographs, a new local person that loves to dance is going to look for places around town that offer dancing so she can invite us, and out of all the people that we met - about 3 of them were interested in trying climbing. Is THAT simple. We just step outside the box, and meet people. Plan camping events. Last weekend we Ziplined in Wrightwood, while being out there camping for the weekend. Introduced several people to the magical world of camping. So simple. Everyone we meet on a regular basis is a potential client for business or personal use, or a potential friend, or all 3. RCED sponsors several meetup groups, one thing is totaly unrelated from meetup itself. Just like people plan trips on meetup that include airfare, but meetup is not responsible for the airline. Or dinners, meetup is not responsible for restaurant foods. Our groups also have other sponsors, including gyms and others.

Back to us, someone brought kids into the picture to earn sympathy. We have 3 of them. We are human, humble and caring people. We are not rolling in the doe like most people think here. We are not skipping steps or cutting corners to make this happen. That is not our mission, nor our program. I am sorry I don't have more time here, is really too time consuming for us. And as I told someone else here too who emailed us, Bob Gains is our inspiration. We need to gain the years of experience, as Bob Gaines did, to earn people’s trust and respect. I am willing to wait for that.

Good night

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 21, 2014 - 02:03am PT

I am going to read it...It has been read, saying very much ..not saying anything...

I will say

you are a big stinky turd

that climbing spawend such an evil and self serving pile of crap is of no surprise

S T F U you are going to do what ever you want that is clear

Jealous old men who deserve more respect,
and hard working REAL SKILLED EXPERIANCED guides will suffer
so will access and climbing
and you do not care

I HAVE KIDS, TOO, AND TRY NOT TO SWEAR.

After talking to my ten year old and thinking what's the point I felt that I should not say
any more

Fire Flames and no rest to you

the number one rule is Do not wreck it for every one, by messing it up.

the rule above shortens down to a very nice swear but as you and I both have kids
I will not go there

your savvy business acumen is what is pissing off some, not me. I object to a lot of things;

the lack of foresight, for one.
the fact that the exponential damage that will result from you and your gumby horde
is some thing that you wash your hands of,and take no responsibility for.

indoors is coming outside and wrecking the place!

How is that indoor gym thing going?

it is clearly making YOU money
so I guess it is workin' for ya

very funny that you would try and pull the- "we have kids too" stuff

the concern is- that monkey see monkey do,- will as it did in the east,
Get places shut down.

if you do the math then it is only a matter of time before regulations will
ruin the freedom that is left in the hills
Good day

little Z

Trad climber

un cafetal en Naranjo

Oct 21, 2014 - 06:15am PT

We are not rolling in the doe

do you mean, rolling with the doe?

or rolling the dough?

aaaah, you mean rolling in the dough!

now I get it

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 06:16am PT

Olga,

You really are the master of spin and crying out like the wounded lamb to the wolf.

As a number of us have pointed out, you have lot's of non answers to direct questions. I did love the part about how locals want the crags to themselves. Again, the wounded lamb routine. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you honestly believe that, then you are delusional.

The groupon/meetup's is pure cover up. What a great marketing arm. You can organize these, list it as sponsored by Olga, then while people are having fun you can now talk up your guide services. The only problem here is that you are not permitted or insured.

You speak of Bob Gaines as your inspiration. Great, Bob's a good guy, he run's an excellent school with excellent guides. If he is inspiring to you, then follow the big arrow that points to permits and insurance.

Frankly, I seriously question and doubt you're ability to not only guide, but to assess the skills of the so called "guides" that you might hire. If you honestly think that Right On was a hard and lousy climb, and that the decent was way to long and difficult, you have no business guiding. That thing is a walk in the park. That decent is trivial compared to some of the stuff that's out here, yosemite, red rocks etc.

So let's simplify this whole thread into a few basic direct questions:

1) Are you insured for liability?
2) Are you permitted to guide in the areas you guide in?
3) NONE OF THE ABOVE

See, that's not hard.

Karen

Trad climber

So Cal urban sprawl Hell

Oct 21, 2014 - 07:28am PT

I've not read all the postings so kinda clueless how this thread evolved. I wish I could climb, period !!!!! I have a severe case of that damn Plantar fasciitis so there won't be any climbing in my near future. Yes, feeling sorry for myself....I freaking can't even walk, argh!

I love to climb and it is the one activity that keeps me sane, SO, for the time being I will succumb to insanity:)

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 21, 2014 - 07:30am PT

Olga said:

...Everyone can jump into conclusions about Jtree, but we don't do guiding at the national park...

But yet on your website you show this:

It looks like an event taking place at JTree National Park. It is not the only one. I counted at least 60 events listed as taking place at JTree. You also have numerous pics of some kind of group climbing at JTree National Park. I recognize the crag, and it is definitely in the park. So, my question is a simple one;

How do you reconcile your quote above with the fact that you advertise paid events taking place at Jtree?

survival

Big Wall climber

Terrapin Station

Oct 21, 2014 - 07:42am PT

I agree with Dingus. You're a good man Todd.

Pirate guiding has gone on since the very beginning. I can personally name some world class climbers who practice pirate guiding. But I won't.

That being said, I won't be going to any top rope areas where a group dating site is taking shape.

Keep it safe folks!

Spider Savage

Mountain climber

The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles

Oct 21, 2014 - 07:49am PT

Olga, You go girl!

Thank you for including low impact ethics in your program.

I've never met a climber who left tape, trash and empty water bottles at the base of the crag but I sure have seen it.

Guys, If I took a big old Boy Scout Troop out to JT or TC or anywhere (which could happen). No one would say squat.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 21, 2014 - 09:35am PT

Olga, I'd appreciate some clear answers to some of those basic operational questions, too, if you don't mind.

Expanding & refining some of rlf's questions:

*What are the specific crags where you offer your MeetUps? (NP's, USFS, BLM, other)
*For each of those sites, do you hold a commercial operating permit there?
*Does your company have a commercial liability policy? What are the limits?
*How many employees does your company have?
*Do you treat them as formal employees (payroll taxes deducted, worker's comp), or as Independent Contractors?
*What are the minimum qualifications & certifications of your guides/instructors?

That was quite the lengthy tome you posted last night, but it still leaves a number of specific questions unanswered. I'd appreciate your indulgence.

And for the record...I don't necessarily take issue with the operational model of using MeetUp- it's an intriguing strategy, actually. I have a much stronger opinion on the basic operating structure of outdoor programs, how this affects the industry & user experience, and fair competition amongst providers.

Vegasclimber

Trad climber

Las Vegas, NV.

Oct 21, 2014 - 10:03am PT

Everyone can jump into conclusions about Jtree, but we don't do guiding at the national park

Then explain the photos of your "clients" at Trashcan Rock.

So just because you see a small group of orange or matching helmets, doesn't necessarily mean we are guiding.

Bullsh#t, plain and simple. All of your "friends who are climbers and just happened to meet up with you" all forgot their helmets at home and you brought an extra bag of them? Do you really think we are that stupid?

I agree with the above - I know that RLF has a dog in this hunt and will probably help take steps to get this illegal group out of the park. This thread has enough content on them to affect their business as it is.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 11:04am PT

Well, apparently there is a serious lack of reading comprehension skills in this thread. There is a far bigger picture than just JT. This isn't about JT. This is about guiding without insurance or permits on public lands. You pretty much can't swing a dead cat without hitting federal land management. NFS, NPS, BLM. Then we get to the state and county/city land managers.

With the litigious nature of society these days, the insurance is the biggest. In no way am I saying that Olga will personally crash the system. But she is a prime example of what potentially can crash the system. The last thing the climbing and the guiding community needs is more intervention from land managers. Believe me, they are in the position to do it, and they will if they feel the need.

By the way, to keep the record straight, I didn't contact the park service. They contacted me. That was two months ago. I want to be very clear on this point.

Simply put, Olga has created this sh#t storm all by herself. She has yet to answer any direct questions with honest direct answers. I also am not buying her claim to how low impact her groups are.

Believe it or not, there is far more to managing a group of people than just making sure the knot is tied correctly and their harness is correct. One of our jobs is to ensure that our clients are not completely trashing the area. It ain't easy once you have someone on the end of the rope and you have people milling about behind you. You have to have eyes in the back of your head.

Simply put, we are stewards of the areas we work in.

Get your insurance and permits Olga, then all this will end. In know way am I attempting to take food off someones table, steal their income or anything else like it. There are certain rules we all have to play by. If you get all this straightened out, welcome to the game!

Also, let's keep any personal insults out of this. It serves no purpose. That's not what this is about.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 21, 2014 - 11:17am PT

The point is taken no personal insults. Sorry.

If Olg_i has friends in high places they will skate along with out being questioned or sited.

The group of Professionals needs to go the Other Way, Go top down.

(Who is in charge, Todd Swain? he knows from the Gunks how to do this)

Join forces, get a free legal advocate and send a letter of intent to all the powers that be.
Stating that you all are also suspending compliance until enforcement is extended to all the parties that advertise or organize groups or whatever.

Seems to me that if you approach this right you can undo decades of regulation, or threaten to.
Are you, as professionals, held to a higher standard for any reasons?
Why is this unfit business, exempt?
She picked your High season on purpose, Point that out. Time is of the essence.

Then tell the Law enforcement Officers to show up that should have a chilling effect.
It is the contract that is in force; you agree to carry insurance and limit the number of clients per guide etc., and the powers that be are under contract to enforce the rules to give a ‘level playing field’ to all.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 11:27am PT

So from now of make sure you follow every single rule, regulation and law in the grand old United States of America...

Are you kidding me? You can't even breathe without breaking a law. I can just see the future, "Sorry you took to many breaths. You get to spend the next 20 years in prison watching your cellmate Bob eat his mattress."

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 11:46am PT

Hypocrites ONE and ALL!!!...

United we stand, together we fall!

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Oct 21, 2014 - 11:57am PT

What about grinding and driving?

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2014 - 06:53pm PT

In just 4-hrs of hands-on instruction in the fundamentals of setting top-rope anchors, with Rock Climb Every Day, you too can build bombproof anchors like this. A "must take" class if you want go outdoors.

Studly

Trad climber

Oct 21, 2014 - 08:52pm PT

Whats wrong with the single carabiner? Does that scare you?

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 09:04pm PT

4 Hours? When I teach this class it takes 4 hours just to get off the picnic table. How to coil a rope, flake, stack, pancake. Then on to knots. Next soft goods, then the hardware. Passive gear, slcd's etc. The real stuff doesn't even start till after lunch.

I guess I've been teaching this class wrong for years. I think maybe I need to start taking classes from them.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 21, 2014 - 09:07pm PT

Whats wrong with the single carabiner? Does that scare you?

Well you could argue the redundancy issue. But frankly two biners make the system run a tad smoother. A little more surface area. I've always used 2 for top rope setups.

I could be incorrect, but I'm pretty sure the AMGA is now advocating 3 biners at the power point. I think it's beyond excessive and unnecessary. Do as you please.

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber

Out Of Bed

Oct 22, 2014 - 07:12am PT

Not the place to insult the slag wench but
Hey Olga_i we got eyes on you
V V VV<>VV<>VV V V
as to why three 'biners at the rope anchor junction
1)more surface area wider bend in the rope
2)as the last person guide (helper,trainee)arives to break it down the third 'biner can be used to clip in and still have a fully safe tr anchor (redundancy bit of overkill but good point for training)
3)the amga always has three reasons for everything they do

Rhodo-Router

Gym climber

sawatch choss

Oct 22, 2014 - 07:37am PT

Oh for f*#k's sake, it's a demonstration photo. Find something else to get yer panties wadded about.

WBraun

climber

Oct 22, 2014 - 08:14am PT

N00bs can't guide.

It takes years and years and lifetimes to become a so called guide.

N00bs will just tech you academics and hardware.

From masters you will learn all the subtle arts and improvisations that help you stay alive and make you dynamic in all facets of your life and death.

Masters talk less and do more.

A real student talks less and studies the master more.

The master never ever says he's a master.

The master also learns from the student and vice versa.

Rock climbing is now mainstream on main street like Starbucks.

It's now big big business.

But where did the the "master" of rock go?

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 22, 2014 - 10:13am PT

I personally think that posting this thread and going on the attack here is wrong for many reasons...

Locker and DMT, I often find myself agreeing with your posts in other threads, and would be interested in why you feel the way you do about this. For the record, I'm NOT trying to start an argument here. I'm just curious.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 22, 2014 - 10:37am PT

Right!?!? I am just a shocked as you!

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 22, 2014 - 11:45am PT

"But in business, publicly running down your competition is not generally a good idea. Warning a prospective customer to 'check for this skill set, check for that cert' is fine. But saying Competitor X sucks because of x,y and z? Bad form, sorry. And it is not typically well-received by the potential customer who perhaps is thinking, "I can make up my own mind?""

I get your 'high road' drift, and do believe that's the better path to take in running a business. That said, it's incredibly frustrating to see customers with limited/no knowledge of the critical elements of a quality service be swayed by price, convenience & glitz. When you've been in a line of work for decades, and dedicated yourself to the highest quality that can be achieved, it's really hard sometimes to not want to point these differences out whenever you have a chance.

nah000

climber

canuckistan

Oct 22, 2014 - 11:55am PT

the problem with a thread like this is that it is based almost 100% on potentially libelous statements, as 99% of what is in this thread are subjective and speculative statements and accusations masquerading as "factual" ones.

because there are so few substantiated facts in here, all a thread like this serves is to make everyone involved look unprofessional:

1. the accusers: because maybe they are wrong when they say things like "i know that crag in the photo, they don't have a permit and i know they are guiding "[first we'd need to have a legal definition for what exactly "guiding" is and then second we'd need more than a photo to determine whether that definition was actually met...] or "so and so told me that they can't do a walk off in climbing shoes that i can do in my teva's", and etc. and etc.

2. the accusees: because their answers are vague [even though they have every right to keep them vague] and this leaves the door open to the possibility that the accusations are correct.

ultimately it's just a big sh#t show and is similar to listening in on a fight between a husband and wife.

and now i just got in the middle... hahaha.

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 22, 2014 - 12:08pm PT

Thanks for the reply, DMT. I am glad you took the time to write it out. Your perspective on the issue is somewhat different from mine, but I get where you are coming from.

Cheers!

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Oct 22, 2014 - 12:24pm PT

DMT.... you are a sales pro.

The only issue I have with these folks is the huge MEET-UP thing and how large groups like this can damage, thrash and otherwise mess up a nice little roadside crag.

It might sound harsh to some, cause as climbers we are and have been welcoming to noobs/begineers/what ever you wish to call em... forever.

If this outfitt shows up on you, while on a nice day climbing, you will be pissed.

If they are running around without the proper permits, insurance, etc....
and somebody gets injured or worse. There will be hell to pay!

Attorneys in lawsuits can be the toughest MOFOs out there and I don't think Ol_ga will be able to brush off the hard questions.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 22, 2014 - 12:42pm PT

"If this outfitt shows up on you, while on a nice day climbing, you will be pissed. "

Agreed, but MeetUp groups like this are only one of dozens of large groups that one commonly encounters at climbing areas these days. Sure, there are regulations on many public lands that are supposed to specify limits on those groups, but whether they get enforced is widely variable. NPS tends to be pretty good about policy management...USFS is spotty...BLM is virtually non-existent...State or City parks vary widely....

Olga's MeetUp groups are the Group Size problem du jour, and not the primary offender by any means. Not trying to justify them, as I take great issue with large group sizes at the crags, but suggesting some perspective is appropriate.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2014 - 11:59pm PT

nah000 & Locker.....this thread was not based on libelous statements, just the question of whether anyone had heard of a rock climbing guide service, "Rock Climb Every Day." And as scrubbing bubbles indicated there weren't any wildly, outrageous inflammatory remarks.....just intense scrutiny of material from the "Rock Climb Every Day" website, photos of Olga with "clients" in matching helmets, in Joshua National Park, and a fair amount of prose by Olga where she steadfastly avoided or sidestepped answering questions regarding having certification, permits, and liability insurance for her business.

nah000

climber

canuckistan

Oct 23, 2014 - 01:09am PT

rurprider wrote: nah000 & Locker.....this thread was not based on libelous statements, just the question of whether anyone had heard of a rock climbing guide service, "Rock Climb Every Day." And as scrubbing bubbles indicated there weren't any wildly, outrageous inflammatory remarks.....just intense scrutiny of material from the "Rock Climb Every Day" website, photos of Olga with "clients" in matching helmets, in Joshua National Park, and a fair amount of prose by Olga where she steadfastly avoided or sidestepped answering questions regarding having certification, permits, and liability insurance for her business.

seriously?

i was bored so i went back and looked solely at your [rurprider's] posts.

3nd post: "the AMGA representative indicated that there is a high level of "STINK" in the CEO, Olga, claiming to be certified" here you wrote that olga claimed to be certified. good luck proving that. if you can't that would be a libelous statement.

5th post: "Someone could bet hurt or worse, badly injured by a wild cat guide." given, everything else you have said and that this is posted in a thread about rced, there is an implication that they are wild cat guides that are operating in an unsafe manner. good luck backing that up.

8th post: "posting links on their website in order to appear affiliated with the AMGA and the Access Fund" didn't know that one couldn't post a link to an organization one supports on their website. good luck proving that it was done "in order to appear affiliated". if you can't prove it, that will be more libel.

10th post: "Olga tries to put a happy face,positive spin on a business catch without certification and permits and taking advantage of loopholes." she says she has permits for where she guides. if you are wrong, your statement is libel.

ok. ten of your posts in and i'm done being bored. mostly because it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

and more importantly you aren't even near the worst offender. within the first few pages, that i took another look at, there are other people claiming olga and co have never led a trad climb, etc. and etc.

if you don't think this thread is filled with potentially libelous statements and accusations then i'm happy for your good fortune: you obviously haven't spent much time around lawyers.

and while, you are of course free to carry on, i hope if you do you'll trust me on the following: you and all those making use of a public soapbox that has an international reach to continually harass a fellow climber, are making yourself look unprofessional and/or like jackasses.

i'm actually pretty surprised the powers that be haven't killed this thread already. i suspect it's only because they haven't actually taken notice of what is in here...

while, olga didn't answer the questions to your satisfaction or more importantly in a way that was able to convince you that your suspicions are wrong, she did give answers to your questions.

and ultimately, she doesn't owe you anything on supertopo...

if you are truly trying to be of service to the climbing community and have any evidence of wrongdoing contact the nps, the blm, the amga, or whatever other authority it is whose regs are not being followed.

or carry on with your attempt at a trial in the court of public opinion and continue to have a lot of the mud being slung, stick to your own self in the process.

your call.

rurprider

Trad climber

Mt. Rubidoux

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2014 - 03:24am PT

Seriously...nah000....while you're being BORED you should go back and reread RLF's posts. Robert HAS contacted the NPS via a ranger. As I indicated the AMGA was contacted (reps Vicky & Ed) and felt the RCED had a high level of STINK to it. And just in case you CAN'T read between the lines, Yelp, Groupon, Meetup, and the Inland Empire Christian Center were contacted, as well.
Some problem with your reading comprehension? Call Sylvan Learning at (855) 567-2848 They're having a Groupon special, save 74%. And thanks for helping scrubbing bubbles get some inflammatory remarks he can sink his teeth into.

nah000

climber

canuckistan

Oct 23, 2014 - 09:59am PT

rurprider:

my only intention was to establish that this thread is primarily based on potential libel [rather than innocent questions as you asserted], and so as mentioned, i only reread enough to a paint a quick sketch for you...

if you and your co-accusers have contacted all of the relevant authorities with your "evidence", good on ya.

to my knowledge, no authority has of yet made any determination of fact, and so every post of yours i quoted remains potentially libellous.

but carry on attacking, smearing and defending, i'm sure you are swaying hearts and minds as we speak. /s

i tried calling sylvan, but the number was for the topeka chapter, so no dice on the discount. i appreciate your caring enough to google that for me, though...

Studly

Trad climber

Oct 23, 2014 - 10:46am PT

Keep up the Rumpriding boys, sad times when that's what it comes down to. Oh no, the last thing we need is getting more people into the sport who top rope the 5.6s and the 5.9s so the "real climbers" can't lead them. Maybe some of them city folks would have signed up with "real guides" to learn but I doubt it. Who wants to learn from bitter old dudes with a bad attitude. Maybe take a hard look and ask why you have not been able to attract enough clientele in the worlds fastest growing sport that you go all Gestapo on these kids. I think the reason is right here on this thread.
But all rumpriding aside, what about the Lycra?

ncrockclimber

climber

The Desert Oven

Oct 23, 2014 - 11:10am PT

But all rumpriding aside, what about the Lycra?

I think that the lycra CAUSES the rumpriding.

DVS

Trad climber

Downey, Ca.

Oct 31, 2014 - 09:10am PT

I can tell you that I had an extensive e-mail exchange with Olga over the course of a couple of weeks. I expressed concern over the fact that it did not appear as if they had insurance or permits to guide in places like JTree, New Jack City, or any of the other locations that they guide in that require permits.She insisted that they had both insurance AND permits. I offered to be a neutral party and look at the documents via e-mail, and informed Olga that if in fact she had an insurance document and permits, I would go on-line in her defense, and set the record straight. She responded by stating she would make those available shortly. After waiting a week and not receiving anymore communication, I followed up with an e-mail inquiring as to the status of the papers. She then informed me that her attorney had opened a file regarding the comments being made on this and other social media sites, and had also been in touch with a high ranking law enforcement offical in her city. I responded by giving her my attorneys contact info and informed her that if her guy was keeping a file and charging her for that, she was getting ripped off. I informed her that we live on the side of the ocean that enjoys the first ammendment right of free speech.I also informed her that I had contacted the special permit office in JTree, and that she had no permit to guide there. She then insisted that they don't guide in the park despite the pictures on their website which are clearly taken in the park. To that she responded with a story about how those pictures were of friends and models taken for marketing purposes, and that they own property in JTree and that is where they guide. When I pointed out the fact that the website shows a map with a pinpoint as to where to meet for the JTree class and that it is the corner of Park Av and HWY 62, and that is not her property.....there was no explanation. She has continued to hide behind "not revealing our business model" as the reason she doesn't prove up insurance and permits. Insurance has nothing to do with a business model unless your model is to run without it, and undercut the competition by not paying the cost of doing business in a legit manner. When asked why her guides were not listed, or their qualifications, the answer was "they are private contractors". When I pointed out that all of Vertical Adventures guides were listed with their qualifications, and that it is stated at the bottom of Vertical Adventures site "all of our guides are private contractors", there was also no response. Throughout my exchange with Olga, the two points I continually tried to drive home to her was 1)If someone gets hurt while in your class, and you have no insurance, that can create a horrible financial burden for the family of the injured party. It also creates a problem for the rest of the climbing community because that persons family will likely hire a lawyer who will sue the Park Service for allowing an un-insured, and un-permitted service to guide in the park.2) This is exactly what threatens our access to places like this. The climbing community needs to police itself against rogue guiding services like this that operate outside of the regulations.You would not buy gear or ropes from a company that cuts corners, nor should we trust our lives, or the lives of our fellow climbers to organizations like this. If they are seen guiding where we know insurance and permits are required, officials should be contacted immediately.....it's the only way to stop this kind of thing before someone is hurt and our access is threatened. If anyone cares to view the e-mail thread, simply contact me at vinjection@aol.com and I will gladly forward the exchange to you.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Oct 31, 2014 - 10:38am PT

I always appreciate seeing illegitimate competing guide services brought to task & made to hold the same professional standards as anyone else, but the process to get there can sure be icky.

nah000

climber

canuckistan

Oct 31, 2014 - 11:53am PT

DK: didn't get a chance to thank you for your excellent advice a few posts back!

i've opened a coffee shop called FREE LEGAL EVERY DAY and have indeed found the meetup market to be a lucrative one...

as per the name, there is no charge for legal advice, but there is a one coffee per hour minimum in order to use one of the tables at our establishment.

all coffees are $75.

drop by anytime... we work out of a food truck, so check our twitter feed [@fled] to see where we are going to pop up next!

nah000

climber

canuckistan

Oct 31, 2014 - 12:36pm PT

^^^^

not so sure about the bricks and mortar... rapidly deployed mobility is key to our continued survival...

but the groupon combo is a great idea: it could be a two dayer...

DAY 1: intro to climbing with RCED
DAY 2: intro to personal injury claims and injury compensation lawsuits with FLED

FLED: Coffee, Free Legal, and now with Payday Loans...

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Oct 31, 2014 - 01:36pm PT

What a crock. All's that has been requested of her is simple honest answers of two questions. I don't need to see any documentation. Just answer the questions.

She won't.

Now she has a lawyer? Too funny.

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