Why U.S. Elected Representatives are wrong about everything.

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crankster

Trad climber

Jul 29, 2014 - 09:36am PT

Just what we need, another thread to allow Ron to pick the low-hanging fruit of blaming the media for everything. Rightwing playbook 101.

Ron, look outside the rightwing media bubble now and then.

And did you ever see an article in any new media of the meetings to discuss the plans- BLM was having over the sale of our lands to fracking companies??

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/fracking-protested-blm-auction-reno

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jul 29, 2014 - 10:01am PT

So I wonder if people in Costa Rica bitch about not having the government
they deserve or chose. It must suck to be without a military in addition
to have to put up with that rather universal health care system.

crankster

Trad climber

Jul 29, 2014 - 10:13am PT

Reilly, we are mostly a nation of serial complainers, with Fox News setting the tone.

Braunini

Big Wall climber

cupertino

Jul 29, 2014 - 10:53am PT

Just what we need, another thread to allow Ron to pick the low-hanging fruit of blaming the media for everything. Rightwing playbook 101.

Reilly, we are mostly a nation of serial complainers, with Fox News setting the tone.

Something seems off here but I can't quite put my finger on it

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:01am PT

"Your vote is meaningless. "

While there are many areas where red or blue is essentially the same, there are also many more where there is a difference in the Parties.

Democrats are less likely to get us into wars of one kind or another. Both Parties have history, but I have greater faith in the Democrats around restraint in military engagement.

Democrats are much more likely to defend and expand the rights of women, including abortion.

Democrats tend to support the concept of gay relationships and marriage.

Democrats will push social programs such as healthcare reform (even if it turns to shit).

SCOTUS Justices tend to vote on issues in ways that I support.

I get your drift...in too many ways, there really isn't much difference between the two....but in respect to many very tangible issues, there really is a difference.

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:09am PT

There is no utopia. I would much prefer to have a representative system instead of a winner takes all system. A much shorter ~2 month campaign system with strict limits on the money spent would also be welcomed.

It is ever more clear that you have to be fairly corrupt just to get on the ballot. It take far more money and influence than a normal citizen possesses, which necessitates that politicians sell their souls (or have none to start with) to get the funding to get into office. To stay there requires continued soul selling.

How do we get out of our current distopian mess? Hell if I know. My guess if that over the next 50-100 years things will get ever more corrupt and fouled up. Eventually it will weigh us down too much and we will become another irrelevant former empire (think Russia vs. the former USSR, or the UK). It will not be a complete mess, but it will be far short of what we could be if we had an empowered citizenry that was trying to build a better America instead of having a frail America being mis-governed to allow the few to bleed off riches for themselves.

Fund schools not wars. Even with our current lousy schools, doubling the funding would lead to far fewer kids falling through the cracks. Halving our current military would still leave a very lethal force that would be more than capable of defending ourselves.

And yes, I would happily pay more taxes to have a better funded safety net, school system, etc. I would be overjoyed if most of my tax dollars for the military were drawn down to a fraction of what they are.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:25am PT

You need $$ to get your message out. You need $$ to counter the attacks your opponents put out. You need $$ because it influences the way people vote.

Again, your problem is with the Supreme Court. And voters.

I'm exceedingly reluctant to get into this thread, since I've seen things change dramatically, depending on who wins elections, but here goes:

The quote above deomonstrates an understanding that it takes money to have effective speech affecting elections with large numbers of voters. Accordingly, all the Supreme Court did was understand that restricting money available to candidates restricts speech (in McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commision), and preventing the purchase of advertising restricts speech (in Citizens United).

People use the term "special interest groups" pejoratively, but what, really is a "special interest group?" When climbers, through the AAC or the Access Fund, participate in the planning process for the Merced River Plan, are we not a "special interest group?" Should we not have our collective voice heard? "Special interest groups" are merely aggregations of people with similar political desires. Money doesn't come from metaphysical entities, it comes from individuals, however concerted their actions.

Our alleged "problem" is simply the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech. No matter how much I don't like aspects of living in the U.S., I have no desire to trade our exceedingly strong Constitutional and jurisprudential safegaurds of freedom of speech with those of any other earthly country.

John

Jingy

climber

Somewhere out there

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:28am PT

Why U.S. Elected Representatives are wrong about everything.

Mainly because Americans are ignorant to the core and based on the results... Republicans will vote for a squid as long as its got a southern drawl...

and unfortunately Americans cannot like outside the box enough to elect the loudest most ignorant fools into positions of power

Luckily... there is an antidote to the stop the virus..
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Maybe republicans can get rid of all the rigging that they spent their lives putting in place...

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 11:29am PT

While there are many areas where red or blue is essentially the same, there are also many more where there is a difference in the Parties

I have considered this a great deal. Yes there do seem to be some slight but significant differences. My thought is this. The real voters (donors) are not perfectly monolithic in their interests. There is democratic representation going on in our current system. Not for the average citizen but in regards to the donors.

To the degree that Unions have different interests than Walmart for example.

When it comes to social issues such as LGBT. I don't think very many wealthy interests other than LGBT could give a crap less and therefore a bone of freedom is thrown to the masses.

It's a sad state of affairs when the only advances "we the people" can attain are those that have only positive or at the very least no negative influence on corporate productivity.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:33am PT

Seems our exceedingly strong Constitutional and jurisprudential safeguards we're traded away long ago.

pyro

Big Wall climber

Calabasas

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:34am PT

Beggar's can't be choosers! I LOVE THE USA...

crankster

Trad climber

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:35am PT

John, I think you nailed it.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 11:35am PT

I love the USA too. I want it to be better. I am continually astounded by the possibilities and saddened by the falling short of so much opportunity.

I really have tried to figure out what is going wrong. The biggest problem that I can identify so far is that the vast power of this nation has been derailed and focused away from being used for the good of all it's citizens.

The key mechanism in this corruption seems to be the need to work for donors.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 29, 2014 - 11:41am PT

" I don't think very many wealthy interests other than LGBT could give a crap less and therefore a bone of freedom is thrown to the masses."

Or women's rights, either. This is not the kind of stuff that drives our fecked up, over-moneyed, non-citizen-representative political system.

But these kinds of issues affect me and people around me every day. These ends are very important and tangible to people, even if the means are so dysfunctional to get there.

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

Jul 29, 2014 - 12:46pm PT

One main difference is the notion of "scope" in a courts decision in terms of which circumstances the decision can be applied to: Conservatives: narrow scope, so personhood for corporations only in respect to their political spending privileges and no accountability. Democrats: broad scope, so personhood for corporations means it comes with all the bumps and warts of being a person, along with all the privileges.

This statement assumes facts not in evidence. No accountability? Tell that to the tort bar, that make billions from verdicts for which corporations allegedly lack accountability. If a corporation sends adulterated drugs into the stream of commerce, individuals go to jail, often even if the individuals had neither knowledge nor intent to so act. If a corporation fixes prices illegally, the individuals who agreed to do so will serve time.

I do agree that the major parties differ. Democrats generally fear sellers (other than labor unions) and those who have money, but give government free rein to do what it pleases. Republicans generally fear unchecked government, but only fear nominally private interests if they have the government's muscle to enforce monopolistic behavior. Actually, both parties are too cozy with the notion of giving away taxpayers' money to buy votes.

I also agree that presidential elections affect the SCOTUS, and it terrifies me to think that the SCOTUS is one presidential appointment away from saying that the First Amendment protects only those who the SCOTUS likes, or that the Bill of Rights generally limits the rights of the people, rather than the power of government.

John

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Jul 29, 2014 - 12:56pm PT

"If a corporation sends adulterated drugs into the stream of commerce, individuals go to jail..."

Can you list the number of people who have gone to jail who are members of a corporation, and were directly or indirectly responsible for the economic collapse of 2008?

I can't think of any, either. A very good example of how the lapdog of corporate interests is red & blue striped.

More to the point...corporations provide excellent cover for the actions & responsiblities of individuals.

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Jul 29, 2014 - 01:02pm PT

Beggar's can't be choosers! I LOVE THE USA...

You can love your child, yet still be disappointed in their behavior. The whole "love it or leave it" crowd seem to be too simple minded to understand that.

I love my country, and still really want it to act better. I want us to stop picking fights, stop bullying, stop lying to ourselves, stop spying on ourselves, start paying our fair share, etc.