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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 29, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
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This is a good thread.....nice dialogue of respectfully stated opinion, for the most part.
Still, the ad hominems have begun ("Crankblather", "...stupid politard crankcase..." "...What a total moron crankynutcase is...").
From the usual mastur-trollers.
Don't take the bait. Rise above.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 29, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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Can you list the number of people who have gone to jail who are members of a corporation, and were directly or indirectly responsible for the economic collapse of 2008?
Apogee, that requires criminal behavior. Getting defrauded by borrowers is not a crime. Helping borrowers defraud federally-insured lenders so you can sell more houses, RV's, cars, loans or anything else is a crime, and I know people who served time for doing that. Of course the people most resopnsible for the collapse of 2008 all worked for the government, and are exempt from criminal or civil liability for stupidity or worse.
John
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
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Neither Democrats or Republicans work for the voting public. Voters are not their constituency anymore.
They work for one group only. Donors. The public gets served only along lines that happen to correspond with the needs of wealthy interests.
You do not live in a democratic republic at all. I'm not sure what to call it.
Your vote is meaningless. Both candidates with any chance to win have been found acceptable to the donor class long before you get to vote on them.
Our so called form of Democracy is truly just opium for the masses.
Read this .. it's nothing new. These types of memo's have been leaked before suggesting that any candidate spend at least half their time fundraising. Or more. Not working for the people.
Finally a political OP I can get behind...not that I will post more than once to this thread. Pretty much sums up my assessment of the situation as well. Vote for the party of choice based on which corporation you want to run the country. Need to change those camPAIN finance laws again. Corportations are NOT people too.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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You can love your child, yet still be disappointed in their behavior. The whole "love it or leave it" crowd seem to be too simple minded to understand that.
Moof get back to ur drum circle!
Reily Jul 29, 2014 - 10:01am PT
So I wonder if people in Costa Rica bitch about not having the government
they deserve or chose. It must suck to be without a military in addition
to have to put up with that rather universal health care system.
costa rica will never have a military because they are protected by U.N and U.S.A!
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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Of course the people most resopnsible for the collapse of 2008 all worked for the government,
correct
The people who worked for the government leading up to the collapse of 2007-8 failed miserably at their jobs.
Those people failed to recognized the looming danger of the newly created and hence very unregulated financial derivative markets, and by their inaction they are directly responsible for that bubble and the collapse of the stock market and economy.
Those same people, again by their failure to recognize the consequences of very loose mortgage underwriting guidelines, are also directly responsible for the collapse of the US Housing Market.
"Those people" in charge during those years were "overseen" by Republicans, and make no mistake about it they did nothing but watch as those markets imploded, deluded with their own ignorant belief that markets don't need responsible regulation and all will be well if markets are left to be "free".
Never in US history has the consequences of such a failed political philosophy been demonstrated with such devastating results as when John's Republicans were in charge.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Bank bailouts were the worst..
I have a buddy who worked for BofA.....their main goal is to find any kinda Fee! and to think we bailed out the thief's..
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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"Those people" in charge during those years were "overseen" by Republicans, and make no mistake about it they did nothing but watch as those markets imploded, deluded with their own ignorant belief that markets don't need responsible regulation and all will be well if markets are left to be "free".
I wish your statement was completely false, Norton, but it is not. The Republican policies of the mid-2000's bear much of the responsibility for the bubble whose bursting led to the 2008 collapse. I disagree, of course, that the lack of regulation was the primary cause, though. Rather, the "nothing to worry about" budgeting, as well as the continuing housing stimulus and government encouragement (if not compulsion) to expand home ownership to those unable to pay were the government policies most responsible. The Republicans were in charge from 2003-2007, and mostly in charge from 2001-2003, so they get the lion's share of the blame. To the extent there were regulatory failures, particularly enforcing a pseudo-monopoly on ratings agencies, you can add 2007-Jan. of 2009 to the Republicans' Wall of Shame.
Sad to say, though, they had accomplices. Two of the biggest were Mssrs. Dodd and Frank, who insisted that Frannie and Freddie were doing just fine, when astute observers -- and the Wall Street Journal's Editorial Page -- were insisting that they were not as early as 2001.
There was also the activity of ordinary people believing that what goes up must keep going up. Last time I checked, that does not constitute criminal behavior.
John
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
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It's not just money and campaign finance, though that's a big part of it.
Also involves gerrymandered, non-competitive districts and closed primaries that allow the most extreme members of a party to dominate conversations and nominations.
Generally fairly depressing, and I don't really know how to fix it short of a bunch of constitutional amendments that won't ever happn.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 29, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
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"ITS BOTH OF THE PARTYS!
"I wish your statement was completely false, Norton, but it is not. The Republican policies of the mid-2000's bear much of the responsibility for the bubble whose bursting led to the 2008 collapse."
John's honesty and reason is most apparent when placed in contrast.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 29, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
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The people who cry, "it's both of the parties"
1. Aren't paying much attention.
2. When they do, they get their information from Fox News and talk radio.
3. Don't really want any government.
Both candidates with any chance to win have been found acceptable to the donor class long before you get to vote on them.
And this is a broad over-generalization.
Look, you go ahead and run for city council. Suddenly, you're a politician, it's just the nature of things; you need to understand politics to win. Why run if you don't try to win? You need to raise $$. People give $$ to the person with the best chance of winning. Sometimes that's the smartest and hardest working person, sometimes not. People bet on winners.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 29, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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I have an answer: they're all corrupt special interest group shills who should be kicked hard in the nut sack. F*#k politicians.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 29, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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John posted Apogee, that requires criminal behavior. Getting defrauded by borrowers is not a crime. Helping borrowers defraud federally-insured lenders so you can sell more houses, RV's, cars, loans or anything else is a crime, and I know people who served time for doing that. Of course the people most resopnsible for the collapse of 2008 all worked for the government, and are exempt from criminal or civil liability for stupidity or worse.
John
US District Attorneys seem to think there has been criminal behavior considering that there have been cases that have gone to trial. Unfortunately, these were the easiest ones to prove and they failed and so everyone else has given up. And the people "most responsible" do not just work for the government.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 29, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
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Bill Clinton's biggest blunder was a blow job
You don't think his lying about it under oath wasn't bigger?
He also could have saved many hundreds of thousands of lives if he had sent in
a Ranger battalion to Rwanda.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 29, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
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The Party for keepning government out of our personal lives , the Republican Party , needed to know whether Clinton received head because...?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 29, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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Crankster writes:
"Try running for a local office in your community. Try spending no $$ when your neighbor is raising $$ like crazy. Two things will happen: 1. you lose, or 2. you raise $$."
Third possibility:
You run against Meg Whitman or Eric Cantor. Money didn't do a damn thing for them. Remember Al "checkbook" Chechi?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 29, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
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Because, as John keeps asserting, the most important thing is that a Democratic President be constantly under investigation for misleading the American public. Also: reasons.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
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Ever wonder if you are stuck in a mental prison? That the real world and freedom are just a step away? But somehow you have been brainwashed to stay on a mousewheel?
Here we have a perfect example
In the last 20 or so posts.. already folks are trying to fall into partisan positions dem vs rep. It is what Americans culturally are conditioned to do.
I am really asking you to look at the bigger picture and consider how to create a government that works. Put yourselves in the founders shoes. You have a goal. You want what is in the preamble to the constitution, what is written in the declaration of independence what Lincoln spoke of in the Gettysburg address. Government of the people by the people for the people.
The great experiment continues but it's purpose is threatened.
Crankster wroteLook, you go ahead and run for city council. Suddenly, you're a politician, it's just the nature of things; you need to understand politics to win. Why run if you don't try to win? You need to raise $$.
It's just the nature of things..you need to raise money...hmm.. really? It is the status quo .. I'll give you that. But I do think it's the biggest problem we have regarding government for the people.
Human nature Dingus Said.. I agree.. One key principle of human nature is you works for who pays ya.
SO now we have representation of the donor being more important than representing the voter. Why because you cannot get voted for if you do not first have the donor. You certainly cannot afford to screw your donors even if what they want is not in the public interest.
10Million for a senate race? What does a senator make? 200 300K not sure.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 29, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
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Lawrence Leissig (sp?) has some interesting ideas on levelling the influence of $$$ in the election process.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 29, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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Climbski posted 10Million for a senate race? What does a senator make? 200 300K not sure
What does the salary have to do with anything? You realize the candidate isn't spending their own money and that the donors are paying to support him getting a better paying job. What are you talking about?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
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It is a roundabout thing HighDesert. But if your job depends on keeping certain people happy.. who do you work for? I suppose the salary of the job is not particularly relevant. As you perhaps pointed out.
Lawrence Leissig (sp?) has some interesting ideas on levelling the influence of $$$ in the election process.
Coool wanna link a few for the lazy.
I am really enjoying this thread so far. It's been a good discussion overall.. Ideas would be a solid plus Apogee
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