Why U.S. Elected Representatives are wrong about everything.

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climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 28, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Neither Democrats or Republicans work for the voting public. Voters are not their constituency anymore.

They work for one group only. Donors. The public gets served only along lines that happen to correspond with the needs of wealthy interests.

You do not live in a democratic republic at all. I'm not sure what to call it.

Your vote is meaningless. Both candidates with any chance to win have been found acceptable to the donor class long before you get to vote on them.

Our so called form of Democracy is truly just opium for the masses.

Read this .. it's nothing new. These types of memo's have been leaked before suggesting that any candidate spend at least half their time fundraising. Or more. Not working for the people.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/28/michelle-nunn-fundraising_n_5628018.html

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2014 - 08:59pm PT
Nah.. It's just reinforced daily.. What bugs me is that it is so clear these days. it's not really even hidden anymore. Yet folks sit around pretending that republicans or democrats are worse than each other. When in fact they are basically working for the same donors.

For example what's the biggest single campaign item reported on during the runnup to presidential elections. It is how much each primary candidate has managed to raise. How many times do you hear.. "so and so is not viable he simply has not raised enough money"

bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
I hear ya, but well entrenched Eric Cantor of Virginia got taken out recently by some no name guy who had about 20k in the bank. I know, it was Eric Cantor, but he wasn't supposed to lose and he did. I guess there is a glimmer of hope occasionally.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
We still have two parties in government.

One stands for Big Government.

The other one stands for REALLY Big Government.

Take your choice.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
Lazy stuff, this "they're all the same". You are not paying close enough attention.

It's the VOTERS fault. They are stupid enough to be swayed by negative political ads on TV!

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
I hear ya, but well entrenched Eric Cantor of Virginia got taken out recently by some no name guy who had about 20k in the bank. I know, it was Eric Cantor, but he wasn't supposed to lose and he did. I guess there is a glimmer of hope occasionally.


He lost a primary.. the donor side still has one candidate in the race. Who will probably win.

Sure there are exceptions .. but they just prove the rule.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
Your problem is with the Supreme Court and their interpretation of the constitution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-strikes-down-limits-on-federal-campaign-donations/2014/04/02/54e16c30-ba74-11e3-9a05-c739f29ccb08_story.html
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
If government power was cut down to size, political donations would dry up to nothing, because campaign donations would be a bad investment.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
Government power is vast. ALWAYS. (or it's not a much of a government and you have a land in disarray) Thus our founders tried to design a government that was forced to use that power to serve the people. I am not at all in favor of weak government. Chaos is often worse than tyranny.

Sadly they did not foresee the power of wealthy interests and our systems weakness in being corrupted to serve it instead.

Ok that's not quite true. Some of them definately felt that only wealthy interests should be served. Those guys kinda succeeded. This is not a new battle in the USA.. it's just pathetic how badly the people are losing it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
It's not in there perhaps.

The question is this

How do "We the people"

"establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity"

I do not think it is best for the people to have a government that serves only the highest bidder.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:41pm PT
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/28/war-coming-paul-craig-roberts/


July 28, 2014
War Is Coming - Paul Craig Roberts

The extraordinary propaganda being conducted against Russia by the US and UK governments and Ministries of Propaganda, a.k.a., the “Western media,” have the purpose of driving the world to war that no one can win. European governments need to rouse themselves from insouciance, because Europe will be the first to be vaporized due to the US missile bases that Europe hosts to guarantee its “security.”

As reported by Tyler Durden of Zero Hedge, the Russian response to the extra-legal ruling of a corrupt court in the Netherlands, which had no jurisdiction over the case on which it ruled, awarding $50 billion dollars from the Russian government to shareholders of Yukos, a corrupt entity that was looting Russia and evading taxes, is telling. Asked what Russia would do about the ruling, an adviser to President Putin replied, “There is a war coming in Europe.” Do you really think this ruling matters?”

The West has ganged up on Russia, because the West is totally corrupt. The wealth of the elites is based not only on looting weaker countries whose leaders can be purchased (read John Perkins’ Confessions of an Economic Hit Man for instruction on how the looting works), but also on looting their own citizens. The American elites excel at looting their fellow citizens and have wiped out most of the US middle class in the new 21st century.

In contrast, Russia has emerged from tyranny and from a government based on lies, while the US and UK submerge into tyranny shielded by lies. Western elites desire to loot Russia, a juicy prize, and there stands Putin in the way. The solution is to get rid of him like they got rid of President Yanukovich in Ukraine.

The looting elites and the neoconservative hegemonists have the same goal: make Russia a vassal state. This goal unites the Western financial imperialists with the political imperialists.

I have recorded for readers the propaganda that is used in order to demonize Putin and Russia. But even I was stunned by the astounding and vicious lies in the UK publication The Economist on July 26. The cover is Putin’s face in a spider web, and, you guessed it, the cover story is “A Web of Lies.”

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21608645-vladimir-putins-epic-deceits-have-grave-consequences-his-people-and-outside-world-web?spc=scode&spv=xm&ah=9d7f7ab945510a56fa6d37c30b6f1709

You need to read this propaganda both in order to see the gutter level of propaganda in the West and the obvious drive to war with Russia. There is no evidence whatsoever in the story to support The Economist’s wild accusations and demand for the end of Western “appeasement” of Russia and the harshest possible action against Putin.

The kind of reckless lies and transparent propaganda that comprises The Economist’s story has no other purpose than to drive the world to war.

The Western elites and governments are not merely totally corrupt, they are insane. As I have previously written, don’t expect to live much longer. In this video one of Putin’s advisors and Russian journalists speak openly of US plans for a first strike on Russia:

http://financearmageddon.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/official-warning-u-s-to-hit-russia-with.html
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
Meh no point in worrying about that if true Tom.

Then again might not be much point to worrying about what I'm saying either. Just once in a while I want to scream out a bit of truth with the hope that the people will all see it and demand a return of their government that has been stolen from them.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 28, 2014 - 09:46pm PT
"Sadly they did not foresee the power of wealthy interests and our systems weakness in being corrupted to serve it instead."


They certainly foresaw it. Why do you think the words "shall not" "will not" and "no" appear so many times in The Constitution? The Constitution's all about limits.

The problem is The Constitution lacks the teeth to back itself up. It left that to our elected represenitives, who drop the ball time and again, because they're a big part of the problem.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 28, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Perhaps not Randisi. The robber baron's are nothing new.

No.. I do think it did exist early on in our nations history... perhaps the first 20 or 30 years.

If not and in any case... it should exist.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 28, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
One of the few things Sen. McCain ever got right was campaign finance reform.

Curt
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 29, 2014 - 04:26am PT
Yes, unfortunately the whole political system has just become an extention of Hollywood. Its intent is to mislead and deceive the publc into thinking they have a voice or say. We are ruled by "special interest" who have a completely separate agenda then what is good for the people of this nation. Divide and conquer, what do you think the whole repub/ democrat thing is about now? Its simply to divide us and distract the American public from what is really going on, and allow no bridge building of any kind. The wholesale looting of our nation has begun, and its not going to be pretty.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 06:49am PT
If you're just now figuring out that $$ rules in politics, well, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Try running for a local office in your community. Try spending no $$ when your neighbor is raising $$ like crazy. Two things will happen: 1. you lose, or 2. you raise $$.

You need $$ to get your message out. You need $$ to counter the attacks your opponents put out. You need $$ because it influences the way people vote.

Again, your problem is with the Supreme Court. And voters.

Public financing and extreme limits on spending get my vote.


And people who believe this bs are the biggest part of the problem:
That, no matter your "party" affiliation should be refreshing. The next and most obvious problem we have is the absolutely controlled and biased major news medias- nothing more than butt puppets to our corrupt govt.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 29, 2014 - 07:12am PT
huh?

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 07:13am PT
It so f*#king sucks to be American! Wah!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where's my starbucks?

DMT

Fair point DMT. Being a disenfranchised citizen of the USA is somewhat of a first world problem. Perhaps the definition of it. Lol

But it is irksome.

I'm am not at all for a government so poorly run as to destroy the ability of corporations to flourish. It might sound that way but it would be really terrible for society if we did not have the GEs the Boeings, the Ford's, various Communications systems.. on an on.

I would like to see the laws of the land and the taxes spent benefit the people more than they now do. Everyone needs a seat at the table. We have mostly lost ours.

Real representation. Seems like a reasonable desire.

Ron..Media is a major issue. But I do not think the government controls it. More the other way around.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 07:40am PT
Dingus. I'm certainly not advocating for real democracy. I want quality brilliant hard working representatives to do excellent work. I want people hired to craft and adjust quality laws. I want them to be paid by the people we want them to work for (US)I want them to have the time needed to research and learn about the stuff they pass laws on.

I want them to do the best they can for our society, wage earners and business alike. To strike a good balance if never a perfect one that cannot exist.

Basically I'm talking grade school level elective representative republic stuff here.

But at the moment the people have lost their seat at the table.. once in a while they barge into the room and yell a bit gain a concession if it's not too much to ask... then are quickly ushered out the adults go back to work.

I am very tired of hearing Republicans are fascists.. democrats are socialists... as if those political parties even matter anymore. Which political party you like is not even relevant when it comes to what our problems are politically.

Who the representatives work for is the problem.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Just what we need, another thread to allow Ron to pick the low-hanging fruit of blaming the media for everything. Rightwing playbook 101.


Ron, look outside the rightwing media bubble now and then.
And did you ever see an article in any new media of the meetings to discuss the plans- BLM was having over the sale of our lands to fracking companies??

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/fracking-protested-blm-auction-reno
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 10:01am PT
So I wonder if people in Costa Rica bitch about not having the government
they deserve or chose. It must suck to be without a military in addition
to have to put up with that rather universal health care system.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 10:13am PT
Reilly, we are mostly a nation of serial complainers, with Fox News setting the tone.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 29, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Just what we need, another thread to allow Ron to pick the low-hanging fruit of blaming the media for everything. Rightwing playbook 101.

Reilly, we are mostly a nation of serial complainers, with Fox News setting the tone.

Something seems off here but I can't quite put my finger on it
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:01am PT
"Your vote is meaningless. "

While there are many areas where red or blue is essentially the same, there are also many more where there is a difference in the Parties.

Democrats are less likely to get us into wars of one kind or another. Both Parties have history, but I have greater faith in the Democrats around restraint in military engagement.

Democrats are much more likely to defend and expand the rights of women, including abortion.

Democrats tend to support the concept of gay relationships and marriage.

Democrats will push social programs such as healthcare reform (even if it turns to shit).

SCOTUS Justices tend to vote on issues in ways that I support.


I get your drift...in too many ways, there really isn't much difference between the two....but in respect to many very tangible issues, there really is a difference.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:09am PT
There is no utopia. I would much prefer to have a representative system instead of a winner takes all system. A much shorter ~2 month campaign system with strict limits on the money spent would also be welcomed.

It is ever more clear that you have to be fairly corrupt just to get on the ballot. It take far more money and influence than a normal citizen possesses, which necessitates that politicians sell their souls (or have none to start with) to get the funding to get into office. To stay there requires continued soul selling.

How do we get out of our current distopian mess? Hell if I know. My guess if that over the next 50-100 years things will get ever more corrupt and fouled up. Eventually it will weigh us down too much and we will become another irrelevant former empire (think Russia vs. the former USSR, or the UK). It will not be a complete mess, but it will be far short of what we could be if we had an empowered citizenry that was trying to build a better America instead of having a frail America being mis-governed to allow the few to bleed off riches for themselves.

Fund schools not wars. Even with our current lousy schools, doubling the funding would lead to far fewer kids falling through the cracks. Halving our current military would still leave a very lethal force that would be more than capable of defending ourselves.

And yes, I would happily pay more taxes to have a better funded safety net, school system, etc. I would be overjoyed if most of my tax dollars for the military were drawn down to a fraction of what they are.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:25am PT

You need $$ to get your message out. You need $$ to counter the attacks your opponents put out. You need $$ because it influences the way people vote.

Again, your problem is with the Supreme Court. And voters.

I'm exceedingly reluctant to get into this thread, since I've seen things change dramatically, depending on who wins elections, but here goes:

The quote above deomonstrates an understanding that it takes money to have effective speech affecting elections with large numbers of voters. Accordingly, all the Supreme Court did was understand that restricting money available to candidates restricts speech (in McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commision), and preventing the purchase of advertising restricts speech (in Citizens United).

People use the term "special interest groups" pejoratively, but what, really is a "special interest group?" When climbers, through the AAC or the Access Fund, participate in the planning process for the Merced River Plan, are we not a "special interest group?" Should we not have our collective voice heard? "Special interest groups" are merely aggregations of people with similar political desires. Money doesn't come from metaphysical entities, it comes from individuals, however concerted their actions.

Our alleged "problem" is simply the First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech. No matter how much I don't like aspects of living in the U.S., I have no desire to trade our exceedingly strong Constitutional and jurisprudential safegaurds of freedom of speech with those of any other earthly country.

John
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Why U.S. Elected Representatives are wrong about everything.

 Mainly because Americans are ignorant to the core and based on the results... Republicans will vote for a squid as long as its got a southern drawl...

and unfortunately Americans cannot like outside the box enough to elect the loudest most ignorant fools into positions of power

Luckily... there is an antidote to the stop the virus..
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Maybe republicans can get rid of all the rigging that they spent their lives putting in place...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 11:29am PT
While there are many areas where red or blue is essentially the same, there are also many more where there is a difference in the Parties

I have considered this a great deal. Yes there do seem to be some slight but significant differences. My thought is this. The real voters (donors) are not perfectly monolithic in their interests. There is democratic representation going on in our current system. Not for the average citizen but in regards to the donors.

To the degree that Unions have different interests than Walmart for example.

When it comes to social issues such as LGBT. I don't think very many wealthy interests other than LGBT could give a crap less and therefore a bone of freedom is thrown to the masses.

It's a sad state of affairs when the only advances "we the people" can attain are those that have only positive or at the very least no negative influence on corporate productivity.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Seems our exceedingly strong Constitutional and jurisprudential safeguards we're traded away long ago.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Beggar's can't be choosers! I LOVE THE USA...
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:35am PT
John, I think you nailed it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 11:35am PT
I love the USA too. I want it to be better. I am continually astounded by the possibilities and saddened by the falling short of so much opportunity.

I really have tried to figure out what is going wrong. The biggest problem that I can identify so far is that the vast power of this nation has been derailed and focused away from being used for the good of all it's citizens.

The key mechanism in this corruption seems to be the need to work for donors.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:41am PT
" I don't think very many wealthy interests other than LGBT could give a crap less and therefore a bone of freedom is thrown to the masses."

Or women's rights, either. This is not the kind of stuff that drives our fecked up, over-moneyed, non-citizen-representative political system.

But these kinds of issues affect me and people around me every day. These ends are very important and tangible to people, even if the means are so dysfunctional to get there.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
One main difference is the notion of "scope" in a courts decision in terms of which circumstances the decision can be applied to: Conservatives: narrow scope, so personhood for corporations only in respect to their political spending privileges and no accountability. Democrats: broad scope, so personhood for corporations means it comes with all the bumps and warts of being a person, along with all the privileges.

This statement assumes facts not in evidence. No accountability? Tell that to the tort bar, that make billions from verdicts for which corporations allegedly lack accountability. If a corporation sends adulterated drugs into the stream of commerce, individuals go to jail, often even if the individuals had neither knowledge nor intent to so act. If a corporation fixes prices illegally, the individuals who agreed to do so will serve time.



I do agree that the major parties differ. Democrats generally fear sellers (other than labor unions) and those who have money, but give government free rein to do what it pleases. Republicans generally fear unchecked government, but only fear nominally private interests if they have the government's muscle to enforce monopolistic behavior. Actually, both parties are too cozy with the notion of giving away taxpayers' money to buy votes.

I also agree that presidential elections affect the SCOTUS, and it terrifies me to think that the SCOTUS is one presidential appointment away from saying that the First Amendment protects only those who the SCOTUS likes, or that the Bill of Rights generally limits the rights of the people, rather than the power of government.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
"If a corporation sends adulterated drugs into the stream of commerce, individuals go to jail..."

Can you list the number of people who have gone to jail who are members of a corporation, and were directly or indirectly responsible for the economic collapse of 2008?

I can't think of any, either. A very good example of how the lapdog of corporate interests is red & blue striped.

More to the point...corporations provide excellent cover for the actions & responsiblities of individuals.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jul 29, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Beggar's can't be choosers! I LOVE THE USA...

You can love your child, yet still be disappointed in their behavior. The whole "love it or leave it" crowd seem to be too simple minded to understand that.

I love my country, and still really want it to act better. I want us to stop picking fights, stop bullying, stop lying to ourselves, stop spying on ourselves, start paying our fair share, etc.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Don't take the bait of the mastur-trollers, crank. Rise above.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 01:05pm PT
Dang, apogee, suckered again, thanks.

crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
Lunch.


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
This is a good thread.....nice dialogue of respectfully stated opinion, for the most part.

Still, the ad hominems have begun ("Crankblather", "...stupid politard crankcase..." "...What a total moron crankynutcase is...").

From the usual mastur-trollers.

Don't take the bait. Rise above.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Can you list the number of people who have gone to jail who are members of a corporation, and were directly or indirectly responsible for the economic collapse of 2008?

Apogee, that requires criminal behavior. Getting defrauded by borrowers is not a crime. Helping borrowers defraud federally-insured lenders so you can sell more houses, RV's, cars, loans or anything else is a crime, and I know people who served time for doing that. Of course the people most resopnsible for the collapse of 2008 all worked for the government, and are exempt from criminal or civil liability for stupidity or worse.

John
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
Neither Democrats or Republicans work for the voting public. Voters are not their constituency anymore.

They work for one group only. Donors. The public gets served only along lines that happen to correspond with the needs of wealthy interests.

You do not live in a democratic republic at all. I'm not sure what to call it.

Your vote is meaningless. Both candidates with any chance to win have been found acceptable to the donor class long before you get to vote on them.

Our so called form of Democracy is truly just opium for the masses.

Read this .. it's nothing new. These types of memo's have been leaked before suggesting that any candidate spend at least half their time fundraising. Or more. Not working for the people.

Finally a political OP I can get behind...not that I will post more than once to this thread. Pretty much sums up my assessment of the situation as well. Vote for the party of choice based on which corporation you want to run the country. Need to change those camPAIN finance laws again. Corportations are NOT people too.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
You can love your child, yet still be disappointed in their behavior. The whole "love it or leave it" crowd seem to be too simple minded to understand that.

Moof get back to ur drum circle!


Reily
Jul 29, 2014 - 10:01am PT
So I wonder if people in Costa Rica bitch about not having the government
they deserve or chose. It must suck to be without a military in addition
to have to put up with that rather universal health care system.

costa rica will never have a military because they are protected by U.N and U.S.A!
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Of course the people most resopnsible for the collapse of 2008 all worked for the government,

correct

The people who worked for the government leading up to the collapse of 2007-8 failed miserably at their jobs.

Those people failed to recognized the looming danger of the newly created and hence very unregulated financial derivative markets, and by their inaction they are directly responsible for that bubble and the collapse of the stock market and economy.

Those same people, again by their failure to recognize the consequences of very loose mortgage underwriting guidelines, are also directly responsible for the collapse of the US Housing Market.

"Those people" in charge during those years were "overseen" by Republicans, and make no mistake about it they did nothing but watch as those markets imploded, deluded with their own ignorant belief that markets don't need responsible regulation and all will be well if markets are left to be "free".

Never in US history has the consequences of such a failed political philosophy been demonstrated with such devastating results as when John's Republicans were in charge.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
Bank bailouts were the worst..

I have a buddy who worked for BofA.....their main goal is to find any kinda Fee! and to think we bailed out the thief's..
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
"Those people" in charge during those years were "overseen" by Republicans, and make no mistake about it they did nothing but watch as those markets imploded, deluded with their own ignorant belief that markets don't need responsible regulation and all will be well if markets are left to be "free".

I wish your statement was completely false, Norton, but it is not. The Republican policies of the mid-2000's bear much of the responsibility for the bubble whose bursting led to the 2008 collapse. I disagree, of course, that the lack of regulation was the primary cause, though. Rather, the "nothing to worry about" budgeting, as well as the continuing housing stimulus and government encouragement (if not compulsion) to expand home ownership to those unable to pay were the government policies most responsible. The Republicans were in charge from 2003-2007, and mostly in charge from 2001-2003, so they get the lion's share of the blame. To the extent there were regulatory failures, particularly enforcing a pseudo-monopoly on ratings agencies, you can add 2007-Jan. of 2009 to the Republicans' Wall of Shame.

Sad to say, though, they had accomplices. Two of the biggest were Mssrs. Dodd and Frank, who insisted that Frannie and Freddie were doing just fine, when astute observers -- and the Wall Street Journal's Editorial Page -- were insisting that they were not as early as 2001.

There was also the activity of ordinary people believing that what goes up must keep going up. Last time I checked, that does not constitute criminal behavior.

John
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
It's not just money and campaign finance, though that's a big part of it.
Also involves gerrymandered, non-competitive districts and closed primaries that allow the most extreme members of a party to dominate conversations and nominations.

Generally fairly depressing, and I don't really know how to fix it short of a bunch of constitutional amendments that won't ever happn.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
"ITS BOTH OF THE PARTYS!


"I wish your statement was completely false, Norton, but it is not. The Republican policies of the mid-2000's bear much of the responsibility for the bubble whose bursting led to the 2008 collapse."



John's honesty and reason is most apparent when placed in contrast.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
The people who cry, "it's both of the parties"

1. Aren't paying much attention.
2. When they do, they get their information from Fox News and talk radio.
3. Don't really want any government.

Both candidates with any chance to win have been found acceptable to the donor class long before you get to vote on them.

And this is a broad over-generalization.

Look, you go ahead and run for city council. Suddenly, you're a politician, it's just the nature of things; you need to understand politics to win. Why run if you don't try to win? You need to raise $$. People give $$ to the person with the best chance of winning. Sometimes that's the smartest and hardest working person, sometimes not. People bet on winners.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 29, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
I have an answer: they're all corrupt special interest group shills who should be kicked hard in the nut sack. F*#k politicians.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
John posted
Apogee, that requires criminal behavior. Getting defrauded by borrowers is not a crime. Helping borrowers defraud federally-insured lenders so you can sell more houses, RV's, cars, loans or anything else is a crime, and I know people who served time for doing that. Of course the people most resopnsible for the collapse of 2008 all worked for the government, and are exempt from criminal or civil liability for stupidity or worse.

John

US District Attorneys seem to think there has been criminal behavior considering that there have been cases that have gone to trial. Unfortunately, these were the easiest ones to prove and they failed and so everyone else has given up. And the people "most responsible" do not just work for the government.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
Bill Clinton's biggest blunder was a blow job

You don't think his lying about it under oath wasn't bigger?

He also could have saved many hundreds of thousands of lives if he had sent in
a Ranger battalion to Rwanda.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 29, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
The Party for keepning government out of our personal lives , the Republican Party , needed to know whether Clinton received head because...?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jul 29, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Crankster writes:

"Try running for a local office in your community. Try spending no $$ when your neighbor is raising $$ like crazy. Two things will happen: 1. you lose, or 2. you raise $$."



Third possibility:

You run against Meg Whitman or Eric Cantor. Money didn't do a damn thing for them. Remember Al "checkbook" Chechi?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
Because, as John keeps asserting, the most important thing is that a Democratic President be constantly under investigation for misleading the American public. Also: reasons.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
Ever wonder if you are stuck in a mental prison? That the real world and freedom are just a step away? But somehow you have been brainwashed to stay on a mousewheel?

Here we have a perfect example

In the last 20 or so posts.. already folks are trying to fall into partisan positions dem vs rep. It is what Americans culturally are conditioned to do.

I am really asking you to look at the bigger picture and consider how to create a government that works. Put yourselves in the founders shoes. You have a goal. You want what is in the preamble to the constitution, what is written in the declaration of independence what Lincoln spoke of in the Gettysburg address. Government of the people by the people for the people.

The great experiment continues but it's purpose is threatened.


Crankster wrote
Look, you go ahead and run for city council. Suddenly, you're a politician, it's just the nature of things; you need to understand politics to win. Why run if you don't try to win? You need to raise $$.

It's just the nature of things..you need to raise money...hmm.. really? It is the status quo .. I'll give you that. But I do think it's the biggest problem we have regarding government for the people.

Human nature Dingus Said.. I agree.. One key principle of human nature is you works for who pays ya.

SO now we have representation of the donor being more important than representing the voter. Why because you cannot get voted for if you do not first have the donor. You certainly cannot afford to screw your donors even if what they want is not in the public interest.

10Million for a senate race? What does a senator make? 200 300K not sure.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 29, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
Lawrence Leissig (sp?) has some interesting ideas on levelling the influence of $$$ in the election process.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Climbski posted
10Million for a senate race? What does a senator make? 200 300K not sure

What does the salary have to do with anything? You realize the candidate isn't spending their own money and that the donors are paying to support him getting a better paying job. What are you talking about?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
It is a roundabout thing HighDesert. But if your job depends on keeping certain people happy.. who do you work for? I suppose the salary of the job is not particularly relevant. As you perhaps pointed out.



Lawrence Leissig (sp?) has some interesting ideas on levelling the influence of $$$ in the election process.

Coool wanna link a few for the lazy.

I am really enjoying this thread so far. It's been a good discussion overall.. Ideas would be a solid plus Apogee
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 29, 2014 - 10:55pm PT
Money is supposed to be a medium of exchange for trading goods and services.

Money still serves that function on a minor scale, which serves to obscure it's major function as controlled by the central bankers who own the government.

Money (fiat currency = debt i.e. US dollar) is primarily a tool for manipulating (enslaving) people.

GOLD is the money of the KINGS,
SILVER is the money of the GENTLEMEN,
BARTER is the money of the PEASANTS,
but DEBT is the money of the SLAVES!!!

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
The only way you win this fight is through education. Informing people of what is really going on.

I'll get partisan. I saw Obama for what he was a mile way, the minute he opened his pie-hole and spoke. Everybody called me names, racist, or whatever...

He's still a loser.

As for trusting COngress? You really have to listen to people and watch them when they speak. Most people with a good heart and mind can see the liars, they are evident.

Pelosi is a liar, fyi.

EDIT:
We are actually pretty damn close. Re-instate the banking regulations that were in place until Reagan showed up.

If yer talking about the Gold Standard, that was Nixon, I believe....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
Not all, Randisi, but most.

I haven't lost complete faith yet. And neither should you.

As long as there are honest people like you and me, there is still hope for honest gov't. Right?

Have faith...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:43pm PT
it's not about the politicians, they are just the entertainers who distract you from what is being done behind the curtain...(or rather behind that red cape being waved by the matador with the sword)...

it's all about the banksters and their handlers
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:49pm PT
Ya know what stuck me immediately about Romney, was that he was incapable of lying or being dishonest.

That was his only problem, but his biggest mark of character. I blame the easily duped voters, not the person who was elected.

You get the gov't you elect. Vote carefully, and with wisedom...

EDIT;
it's all about the banksters and their handlers


Of course it is, but see my previous statements. There ARE good people out there in the House. But K-Street is a big problem.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 06:04am PT
bluering posted
Ya know what stuck me immediately about Romney, was that he was incapable of lying or being dishonest.

Obvious troll is obvious.

bluering continued
As long as there are honest people like you and me, there is still hope for honest gov't. Right?

Sorry, bluering. I'm not quite sure our last best hope for functioning democracy lies with people who spent as much energy as you did questioning the citizenship of our President.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 06:36am PT
Romney lied almost every time he opened his mouth.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney/statements/byruling/false/

But if you far-righties want him again, well, as Bush said, "Bring em on".
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2014 - 07:06am PT
Both lied.. wow! How odd. Wonder why?

How much did both get in campaign contributions .. how much from the same contributors?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:07am PT
Ya know what stuck me immediately about Romney, was that he was incapable of lying or being dishonest.

:-)

Bluering, you've become one of my all-time favorite Internets posters!
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:29am PT
Just see the politards how steeped they are in their daily phantasmic illusions ......
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:21am PT
Just see the politards how steeped they are in their daily phantasmic illusions ......

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 10:28am PT
Jammer is right... the only source of monetary value is labor.

Strongly disagree, DMT. The only source of monetary value is what you can exchange it for. Since I am required to pay my taxes in U.S. dollars, and I can be jailed if I don't, I can exchange U.S. dollars for my freedom which, to me, has value.

In addition, labor is simply one factor of production. You can't eat unless you harvest a crop, but you can't plant a crop unless you have seed for the crop, and unless you water it, and unless you have soil in which to plant it, etc. etc. In general, production requires varying amounts of the following (in alphabetical order):

1. Capital;

2. Entrepreneurial leadership;

3. Labor; and

4. Resources (some older texts lump all resources as "land").

Trying to say that any one factor of production is "primary" leads to the equivalent of proving the chicken came before the egg or vice versa.

Incidentally, the popular "Marxist" idea that labor is the sole source of value contradicts what Marx himself believed. He used a labor definition of value (thus, if have to work four hours to buy a suit, the suit is "worth" 4 hours to me. It didn't matter to Marx that it took ten minutes of labor in the factory to make it.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:03am PT
A recent article about Lessig's views:

http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/07/a-radical-fix-for-the-republic
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Jammer, you and Gary share the same view on the value of labor. You eliminate an essential ingredient in acquiring capital. It is not enough merely to labor for it. You need to spend less than you make. Deferred gratification enriches economies. Unless you reward that deferred gratification, you will have no incentive to accumulate capital.

Similarly, entrepreneurial leadership involves more than labor. It involves bearing financial risk. If I work as a farm laborer, I get paid whether the farmer makes money or not. Not everyone wants to take the entrepreneurial risk. The entrepreneur assumes more risk in exchange for the expectation of a higher reward.

Finally, resource ownership also implies more than labor. Once I extract the resource, or plow the ground, or build the building, someone needs to decide what to do with that resource. Accumulation of resources are really a form of capital, and it cost the owner (in the form of other opportunities foregone) to acquire those resources. Unless the owner gets paid for those resources, there is no incentive to acquire them.

So ultimately, your "labor theory of value" needs an awful lot of refinement before it truly explains economic activity. Those refinements end up being equivalent to the factors of production I set forth above.

John

Edit: Since money is really just a Ponzi scheme, why don't we agree to let people free themselves of that worthless asset by, say, giving it to me?

;-)
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:32am PT
The entrepreneur assumes more risk in exchange for the expectation of a higher reward.

Entrepreneur= Genuis
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:33am PT
'Genius'

Or maybe you were referring to:

Genuis
When you think that you're smart, but in actuality you aren't.


or


Genuis
To act as a channel for devine or aka bad ass information or abilities...root word from Greek of Genus or like Geni as of the god, or gods

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Genuis
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:38am PT
Interesting article on Lessig, Apogee, but he has a fundamentally flawed premise when he says the public domain has no lobbyists. It has lobbyists, but they are diverse. Those who benefit from keeping intellectual property out of the public domain are identifiable and work more closely in concert.

Virtually every change in every law produces economic winners and losers. When the stakes affect substaintial interests on both sides (e.g. worker's comp law in California), there will be intense interest by those on all sides of the issue, it will receive a full hearing, and proper political outcomes will determine the result.

If, however, one side of a potential change has a relatively small number of people who will suffer a great deal with the change, while the other side has a relatively large number of people who will gain a little by the change, it is likely that those opposing the change will be heard more clearly than those who support the change, because those who would benefit from the change have less incentive individually to do anything about it. The classic example of this is the sugar import quotas, which hurt the economy generally, but greatly benefit domestic suger growers.

The battle between owners of intellectual property and public domain status is like the sugar quota example. The public domain has lots of businesses that benefit from expansion of public domain status, but none benefits enough to put a lot of money into expanding it. That could reflect two possible states of being:

1. The gain from expansion of the public domain does not offset the cost of doing so; or

2. The gain from expansion of the public domain exceeds the cost of doing so, but the transactions cost of changing the law exceeds the gain that would result.

Lessig's view assumes that case No. 2, above, prevails in real life. That's not particularly clear from readily available facts.

Lessig's beef really is not with influence or corruption; it's with transactions costs. It costs way more money to identify and coordinate action among those who would benefit from an expansion of the public domain than it does to identify and coordinate action among those who oppose that expansion. That's true no matter what "political reforms" get passed, so we'd better make sure that any such reforms actually ameliorate the transactions cost asymmetry, rather than distort economic reality.

incidentally, the Bankruptcy Code created a new entity, the United States Trustee, whose job is to look after the interest of parties whose eocnomic stake in a bankruptcy is too small to hire a lawyer. I have reservations about how well the idea works, but it was an attempt to deal directly with a transactional cost problem.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:43am PT
Lessig readily acknowledges that this idea is not a panacea, but the levelling effect would still be a far cry from where we stand now, don't you think?

Since Citizens United has effectively entrenched our current system even deeper, there don't seem to be a plethora of potential solutions being offered up these days. Mostly complicit resignation and cynicism.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:46am PT
Its labor that is at risk; it could be all for nothing.

Um no, unless your definition of "labor" makes your statement a tautology. When our law firm revenues were low, the employess of our firm who were not partners made their full salary, and the partners got to wait to get paid. My income could vary drastically from year-to-year. The incomes of the non-partner employees would be exactly what we promised, regardless of how well we did.

I've represented perhaps 1,000 owners of businesses that failed. Their employees lost their jobs with the employers, but never (in my cases, anyway) their pay for work they'd already performed. In contrast, the owners lost everything they put into the business, plus, usually, every other non-exempt asset they owned. The risks are in no way comparable, as everyone in business for themselves knows or finds out.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:47am PT
BTW...stop seeing this whole issue from an economist's viewpoint. I know it's your natural locus, but our Representative government is supposed to be about the people first. The $$ is a necessary reality & evil, but it's supposed to follow the people, not supplant them.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:53am PT
Since Citizens United has effectively entrenched our current system even deeper, there don't seem to be a plethora of potential solutions being offered up these days. Mostly complicit resignation and cynicism.

Citizens United did no such thing. It had nothing to do with lobbying, for instance. The issue in Citizens United was whether a corporation could air an ad critical of a presidential candidate within sixty days of the election. It was an issue of regulation of political speech because of its content and the identity of who wanted to say it. The majority found that "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging freedom of speech" meant what it said. The dissent found that "abridging freedom of speech" did not occur if the party seeking to speak was a party the government didn't want to speak.


It's no accident that the dissent was about four times as long as the majority opinion. It takes a lot of effort to say that words mean what they don't say.

And no, I don't think that Lessig's proposed reforms make things better than they are now. I simply don't trust any government run by anyone but God to decide the content of permissible political debate.

John

Edit: Apogee, this entire argument centers around the proper use of money in society. "We the People" are now hundreds of millions of us, and the way we communicate our opnions, wants and needs implicates economic matters. The OP's argument rests on an assumption that the current system, which requires money to communicate effectively, needs to change. That's a fair opinion, but the only way to evaluate it requires that we consider the other options in communicating our positions and making determinations.

That inquiry, in turn, requires that we consider both the economic issues (what resources do we need to communicate effectively, and what is the optimal way of doing so) and philosophical issues (i.e. what is "fair?") The Founders set up a system of limited representative government. That always involves a trade-off between commuication and corruption. The Founders resolved that conflict in favor of communication, but at that time, the size of government was sufficiently small that the gains from influencing legislation were rather modest.

Now, the scope of gain by influencing legislation is enormous, because we've given -- through our representative government -- much greater power to the government over matters affecting our lives. For that reaosn, Lessig and you could be right. My inherent mistrust of government leads me to the opposite conclusion, but I don't think you're irrational for seeing it differently.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:54am PT
Well, seeing as how God isn't going to be showing up anytime soon, I guess we have to find our own way to deal with it, don't we?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:57am PT
our Representative government is supposed to be about the people first.

Well, only in a limited sense. Most people in the US today think that "about the people" means something like: "Serving my interests and desires."

The founders thought of government as protecting negative rights, rather than supplying positive desires.

Here's a thought: To be eligible to vote, you cannot be sucking on the federal teat. If you, as an individual, are directly getting welfare, food stamps, government subsidized housing, or other such "milk" from the teat, you don't get to vote.

To paraphrase de Tocqueville, "The American experiment in democracy will last just until the people realize that they can vote themselves entitlements."

Talking about "lobbying" by the people, when people can successfully lobby for more and more entitlements, your nation is doomed. It takes decades for the doom to accumulate, but it becomes inevitable.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:58am PT
oh for Christ's sakes
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:58am PT
And your alternative would be, then (madbolter)?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
I personally think it is painfully obvious that labor is not valued at it's free-market rate in our current system, and that theft is outright rewarded. You seem to liken that to "acquiring capital" and "the means of production".

I absolutely agree. Members of governmental employeee' unions get far more than what a free market would pay, and steal it from the rest of us through their purchase of the legislature and government generally. When those who allege that private money corrupts government do something to deal with the obvious theft and conflict-of-interest from public employee unions, then I may conclude that they're serious about fixing the corrupting effect of money in government generally.

Of course, in the truly private sector, where anyone is free to go into business, the choice of obtaining a return solely by labor or some other means is up to the individual. As long as individuals remain free to enter or leave businesses as they choose, long-term, systematic exploitation in those secotrs remains unlikely.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
"So it was the right thing to enfranchise corporations rather than fix the problems with the unions and lobbying in general?"

It appears to me that the SCOTUS (and John) don't read that much into the Citizen's United decision. They seem to look at this from a simplistic, idealistic principle without much regard for the realities of how it plays out in today's USA.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
And your alternative would be, then (madbolter)?

I think I answered that. Those drawing entitlements have a vested interest in voting themselves yet more and more entitlements. And the whole political landscape changes to more and more cater to the (ever increasing) number of these voters.

Take entitlement-voting out of the system, and you return to voting in the interests of the nation rather than endless deficit-spending (17 trillion and counting).
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
"voting in the interests of the nation"

Nation = mass of individuals

Individuals are going to vote in their own interests, right?

Therefore,

'Voting in the interest of the nation' = voting in your own interests (& vice versa)

Right?



And....what exactly do you define as 'entitlements'? The standard definition tends to circulate around SS or Medicare, etc.....but are roads & highways 'entitlements'? Schools? Military & defense?

Every one of those areas have lobbyists promoting their interests.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
apogee=genius :)
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
You're too kind.

I'm thinking more like 'Genuis'.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
Apogee posted
Individuals are going to vote in their own interests, right?

People more tend to vote their identities, not their interest. That's why so many cash strapped Americans vote Republican and so many well-to-do Republicans think they are the underdog.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
Individuals are going to vote in their own interests, right?

Of course. The problem emerges when large groups of individuals can form factions and ultimately majority factions. In a democracy or republic, majority faction is the end. We are almost there at present, as we are approaching half the country that sucks on the teat.

There is a huge difference between individual, direct entitlement-distribution and general public goods, such as roads, etc.

And calling SS an "entitlement" really conflates the issues. Most people drawing SS will never get back out of that system what they paid into it. It has been the most outrageous Ponzi scheme in human history. That system needs to be fully funded for some particular period of time, take no new "payers" (i.e.: more people getting fleeced), and then end when everybody presently on it dies off. We make good on our present commitments but don't add to those commitments.

People that paid into SS are ENTITLED to get back what they can from it! That is not even close to the same thing as saying, "People are entitled to housing, food, health care, etc., even if they can't/won't pay for it."

It is the second sense of "entitlement" to which I refer. Tax credits just because you're poor? Sorry. No. Tax credits just because you're poor and keep pumping out the kids? Sorry. Double, triple no! Illegal alien that manages to pump out a kid on American soil and then jump on the welfare roles? Infinitely NO! You don't get to vote yourself a fuller and fuller teat at taxpayers' expense just because you and a huge pile of people like you CAN. If you don't PAY taxes to keep this nation running, then you do not have the long-term best-interests of this entire nation fundamentally at heart. And that is the sense in which "people voting their interests" implodes.

People that KNOW that money doesn't grow on trees, and that the piper DOES have to get paid, do not "vote their interests" in such a way as to full-on kill the golden goose. Entitlement-voters DO.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
Well, I'm with you in respect to Medicare & SS...those aren't 'entitlements' in my book, either, as individuals have paid into them expecting to receive the benefits that were part of the deal. Fact is, though, as far as politics is concerned, SS & Medicare are the textbook definition of 'entitlements'.

You and John E will have to work out your differences as to when coalescing individuals become a faction or majority faction (or however you want to define it). John seems to see this quite differently, saying (if I remember correctly) that lobbying groups are nothing more than a bunch of individuals with a common interest.

And anyway....isn't the concept of 'majority faction', in essence, the simple principle behind our democratic election process?

Are tax credits the only example of 'entitlements' that you can offer?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
curious, Madbolter

what do you propose instead of Social Security?

secondly, a question:

what is the name of the Federal Legislation that you refer to that gives "welfare" to people who are in this country illegally?


seriously, I would like to look this up and read about it

thanks in advance
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
madbolter posted
It is the second sense of "entitlement" to which I refer. Tax credits just because you're poor? Sorry. No. Tax credits just because you're poor and keep pumping out the kids? Sorry. Double, triple no! Illegal alien that manages to pump out a kid on American soil and then jump on the welfare roles? Infinitely NO! You don't get to vote yourself a fuller and fuller teat at taxpayers' expense just because you and a huge pile of people like you CAN. If you don't PAY taxes to keep this nation running, then you do not have the long-term best-interests of this entire nation fundamentally at heart. And that is the sense in which "people voting their interests" implodes.

Nevermind that poor people vote in overwhelmingly tiny numbers, the amount of myths that you are required to believe in for anything in that paragraph to be taken seriously precludes a proper rebuttal.

I will say, just to keep a shred of decency going in this terrible conversation, that we should in fact be helping poor people because it is the right thing to do.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
And anyway....isn't the concept of 'majority faction', in essence, the simple principle behind our democratic election process?

No, not quite. A "faction" exists to magnify its own interests at the expense of the fundamental rights (such as property rights) of those not party to the faction.

So, majorities do ultimately rule in a democracy or republic. But they do not become a "faction" until their rule becomes rights-violating. Federalist Paper 10 was greatly concerned with this problem, as the founders saw it as the greatest weakness in a democratic/republican form of government.

Are tax credits the only example of 'entitlements' that you can offer?

In 2010 the federal department of Health and Human Services (as just one example department) had a budget that was almost 20% of the US GDP. That department oversees everything from Medicare to medical research grants. Good things!

However, rolled in there in almost impossible-to-tease-out fashion is (according to their site) also: Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, or TANF; Child Support Welfare; Energy or Utility Assistance; Food Stamps; Medical Assistance Program; and others. In typical euphemistic fashion, it is said: "The US Dept of Health and Human Services oversees a variety of state welfare programs available for those in need across the country. These programs are regulated by the individual states to ensure the right people are getting welfare help that they need."

So, let's skip the ambiguous word "entitlement" and go straight to "welfare," which is more widely understood to mean "sucking on the teat."

And HighDesert's idea, "just because it's right," is both an actual reversal of what the founders meant by "right," and it is an utterly arbitrary approach to outright theft.

Let's say that a guy comes up to you, Norton, and says, "Hey buddy. Can you spare a buck?"

I would assume from your comments that you ALWAYS give money. In fact, you ALWAYS give money to EVERY homeless person or beggar you see. Without exception. I mean that! NO exceptions! "Because it's right."

If you make ANY exceptions, then you have destroyed your own perspective in actual practice. WHATEVER basis you employ to make a single exception, THAT exception is one that you took upon yourself and helped yourself to the idea that it is sometimes legitimate to not give EVEN THOUGH "it is right."

Perhaps you just didn't have the money at that time.

Perhaps you were in some way suspicious of a particular beggar.

Perhaps you felt that you had "helped enough" that day.

Whatever your reason for making ANY exception, you helped yourself to some principle of legitimacy for NOT helping.

Now, two points:

1) Whatever principle of legitimacy that was, it can be writ large and applied across the nation to all taxpayers.

2) When the government FORCIBLY takes money from taxpayers TO "help" because "it's just right," there can be NO exceptions.

When the feds get into the welfare game, they necessarily violate the property rights of individuals by taking the fruits of one man's labors and giving it to another. The individual has NO choice in the matter, and this GUTS the entire basis of property rights. It is outright theft, plain and simple.

IF it is ALWAYS "just right" to help EVERYBODY that "has a need," then individuals SHOULD indeed ALWAYS help.

But it is NOT the case that it is ALWAYS right to do so, and it is NOT the case that individuals should ALWAYS help. You yourself recognize this FACT, because you yourself do NOT always help everybody you see that needs help. Individual freedom of choice is critical here, and it is the very thing that the feds eliminate when they engage in taxpayer-funded welfare.

Finally, the inevitable comparison between "working together" to "solve the poverty problem" or "help those in need" and the idea of public works projects, such as dams, roads, etc., is flatly ridiculous.

As an individual, I join a government for two primary reasons: to have a powerful entity help me protect my inalienable rights; and to have a collective work on projects that benefit me directly that I cannot perform all by myself.

In both cases, I submit to governmental authority and agree to pay taxes BECAUSE both forms of submission directly benefit me.

In the case of welfare, I am FORCED to pay an arbitrary amount of money to people I would not otherwise be willing to support, and that payment provides neither protection of my inalienable rights nor produce a product I could not otherwise produce on my own and that directly benefits me.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 30, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
Jammer, you and Gary share the same view on the value of labor. You eliminate an essential ingredient in acquiring capital. It is not enough merely to labor for it. You need to spend less than you make. Deferred gratification enriches economies. Unless you reward that deferred gratification, you will have no incentive to accumulate capital.

John, you're correct that capital needs to accumulate in order to advance an economy. But what purpose does the capitalist serve? Why must this capital be concentrated into the hands of a few individuals?

Capital does not create labor, labor creates capital. At least that's what some Republican president said once:
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."
    Abraham Lincoln
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
what do you propose instead of Social Security?

That people plan for their own retirement and suffer the consequences if they don't have impulse control and thereby squander their futures on immediate gratification.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
Government of Ukraine Collapses

Today the Ukrainian government resigned. The prime minister Yatsenyuk, or “Yat” as affectionately called by Victoria Nuland who put Yat into office, resigned along with the entire Cabinet. The parliament refused to vote the harsh conditions demanded by the IMF. I am not sure what this means. Perhaps it is just a tactic to force the parliament to do as the IMF says. Or perhaps Yat, Washington’s stooge, has realized that IMF or no IMF, Ukraine’s economy is imploding and wants to get out of the blame.

The point for now is that I checked the BBC, the New York Times, and CNN and there is not one word about the collapse of the government of Ukraine.

I did notice that the BBC, now a reliable element of Washington’s Ministry of Propaganda, reported, as if it were true, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf’s claim that the Russian military is shelling Ukrainian forces. When Harf tried this out today on a roomful of journalists, they laughed her out of the room. Evidence, evidence! they demanded. Why, Harf was asked, do you think something is made true by you saying it!?

So, as usual, real news is missing from the Western press, but fake news is reported.

Professor Michael Chossudovsky has provided an account of the collapse of the Ukrainian government on Global Research. http://www.globalresearch.ca/collapse-of-ukraine-government-prime-minister-yatsenyuk-resigns-amidst-pressures-exerted-by-the-imf/5393168
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 30, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
In the case of welfare, I am FORCED to pay an arbitrary amount of money to people I would not otherwise be willing to support, and that payment provides neither protection of my inalienable rights nor produce a product I could not otherwise produce on my own and that directly benefits me.

Didn't Jesus say something about that?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
You have a very strange definition of 'entitlements'.

You might feel that there are those who receive Welfare develop an inappropriate level of entitlement attitude towards it, but pretty much the rest of the world defines welfare as a 'Social Program'.

And you are pretty spiteful about it, too. I have known a number of people who are on welfare, and none of them wanted to start receiving it, and all of them did everything they could to get off of it, and back on their own feet, as soon as possible.

Of course, there are abuses....and you seem to have gained the view that all persons receiving welfare wish to do nothing more than suck on the gov't teat for the rest of their lives, and that we should not (as a country) do anything to help those in genuine need. Man, that's a negative view of the world.



madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
You have a very strange definition of 'entitlements'.

I thought that we got past that point already. I guess not. I guess you didn't read where I said, "... let's use the term 'welfare.'"

Or, you're just nit-picking as a tactic because you don't agree with me in general.

You might feel that there are those who receive Welfare develop an inappropriate level of entitlement attitude towards it, but pretty much the rest of the world defines welfare as a 'Social Program'.

Who cares what it's called. Regardless of what HighDesert says, huge numbers of people DO vote for it, and more and more of it. And the demoncrats DO base their entire existence on more and more "social programs" that are cried for by the masses, thus to ever-increase their voting base.

Majority faction is just about upon us.

And you are pretty spiteful about it, too.

You do not know that. I am very unhappy to see the greatest nation on Earth slowly pitch off the cliff in exactly the way that the founders hoped to avoid and that de Tocqueville predicted. But "spiteful?"

Why don't you quit analyzing ME and start systematically responding to arguments?

I have known a number of people who are on welfare, and none of them wanted to start receiving it, and all of them did everything they could to get off of it, and back on their own feet, as soon as possible.

Good for them. That says nothing whatsoever in response to my arguments about majority faction or the role of the federal government in FORCING taxpayers to distribute their property to those that have not earned it.

Of course, there are abuses....

Yes there are. And the fact that individual choice is taken out of the process of "helping" MEANS that it is no longer "helping." It is outright theft and forced redistribution.

and you seem to have gained the view that all persons receiving welfare wish to do nothing more than suck on the gov't teat for the rest of their lives, and that we should not (as a country) do anything to help those in genuine need.

Utterly irrelevant comments. (Oh, and inaccurate as well.)

How LONG they do it is irrelevant. What their attitude is in doing it is irrelevant. THAT they do it and the feds FORCE us to "help" them do it is the only thing that is relevant.

And the FACT is that they DO vote, and they DO vote across-the-board Democratic and in favor of yet more of the same. Oh, and there are growing numbers of them.

Man, that's a negative view of the world.

Utterly irrelevant. (Oh, and inaccurate as well.)
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
MB -- "I am very unhappy to see the greatest nation on Earth slowly pitch off the cliff in exactly
the way that the founders hoped to avoid and that de Tocqueville predicted."

Yep so true.

And then you have these stupid brainwashed idiot politards here babbling incessantly parroting MSM with no clue what's going on ......
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
And then you have these stupid brainwashed idiot politards here babbling incessantly parroting MSM with no clue what's going on ......

Hey, Spike, why don't you go bully folks on the "Mind" thread and leave us alone? And schedule a mental health appointment for your anger issues.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Jul 30, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
Werner-What is going on?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 30, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
The "entitlement" class lives on Wall Street, and you better believe it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
Andddd... the puppet-masters win again: class warfare and class envy are alive and well.

We fight among ourselves and don't enact REAL campaign finance reform (we once had it, but the pricks undid it).

Throw every one of the incumbents out of office as a first step.

LOL... what am I thinking? It will never, ever happen.

We're doomed, and the SHTF scenario will be upon us, hopefully later than sooner.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Man...what a miserable way to live your life.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Andddd... the puppet-masters win again: class warfare and class envy are alive and well.

Very true.


“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

― Warren Buffett
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
Throw every one of the incumbents out of office as a first step.

This is lazy. There are plenty of good people in congress.

Who are you going to replace them with, anyway? Who are these Super Civilians?
Aren't they incumbents as soon as they take office?

If we lost all the tea party goons, that would be a start. Lois Lerner was right.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:14pm PT
There are plenty of good people in congress.

Oh, you must be referring to the ones that voted AGAINST the bill overturning the campaign finance limits that had been in place for decades, thereby opening the doors WIDE for the big-money (that only corporations can throw around) to flow in.

Those guys? Those are the "good people" you are referring to?

Then there is not a one "good person" in congress. Not one of them voted against it. They ALL want the big corporate dollars flowing in. Not a ONE actually cares to represent US against the corporations.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2014 - 11:32pm PT
Who are you going to replace them with, anyway? Who are these Super Civilians?

There are thousands of brilliant caring hardworking folks out there who could serve.

I could easily list people I would be proud to have represent our interests..

Some of them on st

JEleazarian for one. But not with the current system.. those who I would trust to send to Washington and be paid to work hard to find good solutions to our real world problems could not do that job in the system that exists

THIS IS THE KEY ISSUE .. How can we send the BEST people to Washington? How can we enable them to do the work that really needs doing?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 31, 2014 - 12:06pm PT
Thanks for the vote of confidence, climbski2, but flattery will get you nowhere!

;>)

John
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 31, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
climbski2,

I agree with you, but the problem is the current system does not reward that kind of motivated, level headed thinking. Even if they got into office they would soon be dragged back down again.

We need to change the game so that creative solutions to problems and bi-partisan compromise aren't seen as a weakness. The fringe loonies have taken over the asylum and we can't seem to get it back.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 31, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
I'd vote for JE. We may not agree much politically, but we both want the same thing for the country.

Besides, it'd be nice to have someone who could play that big Steinway in the White House.

As for keeping the crooks out, Plato was right. Anyone who wants that power can't be trusted with it. So, we choose by lottery. Everyone has to enter the lottery. We'd have a more representative group in the legislature than what we have now, for sure.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 3, 2014 - 06:01am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
JElezaarian is my favorite economist....

Strongly disagree, DMT. The only source of monetary value is what you can exchange it for. Since I am required to pay my taxes in U.S. dollars, and I can be jailed if I don't, I can exchange U.S. dollars for my freedom which, to me, has value.

In addition, labor is simply one factor of production. You can't eat unless you harvest a crop, but you can't plant a crop unless you have seed for the crop, and unless you water it, and unless you have soil in which to plant it, etc. etc. In general, production requires varying amounts of the following (in alphabetical order):

1. Capital;

2. Entrepreneurial leadership;

3. Labor; and

4. Resources (some older texts lump all resources as "land").

Trying to say that any one factor of production is "primary" leads to the equivalent of proving the chicken came before the egg or vice versa.

Incidentally, the popular "Marxist" idea that labor is the sole source of value contradicts what Marx himself believed. He used a labor definition of value (thus, if have to work four hours to buy a suit, the suit is "worth" 4 hours to me. It didn't matter to Marx that it took ten minutes of labor in the factory to make it.

John


He offers irrefutable points on a regular basis. I totally subscribe to his theories, but sometimes he disassociates his from mine. Which is all fine. John is rock-solid on economics.

If you disagree with that, yer prolly a pinko.... (I said that because John won't).
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
And this whole notion that the current House is wrong on everything, isn't that because you don't their stances on policy as a branch of gov't? Is this temper-tantrum time? The Dems held both Houses of Congress for 2 f*#king years, and probably passed the worst bill ever, the ACA. But that is debatable.

Point is, now the Repubs hold the House and you little brats are whining!~ This is the way our gov't works.

Sometimes, no bills are good bills. No more bullsh#t.

It's not the job of Congress to constantly legislate, but only when necessary, when there's a need.

There has been far too much pork and bullshit flowing through Congress. Also, ask yourselves why Harry Reid won't even allow votes in the Senate on certain bills.

To me, that rule should be repealed. Anything that passes the House should get a vote in the Senate.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
Nevertheless, the only source of monetary value is labor. Diamonds and all the gold in the world are worthless pieces of earth, without labor. No part of civilization exists without it. No part of civilization gets built without it. No diamond, gold, oil or even grazing grass for (human manufactured, with LABOR) cows without labor. You can't even print money without it, much less distribute it.

Money is a promise of work. Nothing more.

DMT


Spoken like a true world-workers member. Does this apply to intellectual property too, ideas?

What about trade?

The only monetary value comes from what someone is willing to pay/trade for it. It has nothing to do with the initial value of PAYING someone to extract that good. It the good is useless with no buyer, the labor is worthless, it has no value. Quite the opposite...

Supply, demand.

EDIT:
Its the Teabaggers. Even their own party hates them.

DMT


I hope you can see the irony here with your anti Tea Party and Anti-Establishment sh#t....

Tea-Baggers hate the GOP for the most part....
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
I absolutely agree with the premise of the thread. It has been the lesser of two evils for a few decades now. A legitimate 3rd party would help, not solve, some of the issue, but at this point the special interests have enough to cover 3 parties worth of donations.

"Popular resentment of the privileges enjoyed by the clergy and aristocracy grew amidst a financial crisis following two expensive wars and years of bad harvests, motivating demands for change."

Sound familiar? We are getting closer and closer every day to needing a modern day Americanized French Revolution.

Meanwhile...

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/07/29/gop-house-set-to-work-only-14-days-in-the-next-four-months/
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
Roughster, the "tea party" is the libertarian wing of the GOP with some moderate Dems joining in.

I know what ya mean. Gov't needs to start responding to people, instead of us being a victim of it.

That's the Tea Party. We want our independence back. Fair taxes, lower gov't spending, and personal independence.

Be nice if the got the Southern Border under control too...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Bluering this is NOT a democrat vs republican thread..teaparty vs liberal really is irrelevant. I do think the teaparty represents the frustration about ineffective government but I suspect they are focused on the wrong root causes.

I am trying to get to a deeper very fundamental issue. The concept of getting our representatives to work for the people first instead of donors. Perhaps freeing them to work for us is a better way of putting it.

Crafting quality laws and administering an effective government are not realistically possible when you have to spend over half your time in office begging for donations. Or being afraid to piss off donors.

I suspect governing well is difficult for the most brilliant hardworking decent people who have every second of their time focused on it.

This is not about sound bites or talking points. It is not about liberal or conservative. None of that is even relevant if first we cannot get them to work for us. Currently all that stuff you guys argue about seems like a smokescreen and good cop bad cop routine to placate the masses who have no or at best very poor representation

JEleazarian made a statement early on that he was concerned how fixing this issue could affect freedom of speech. Something like that. I meant to ask him what those concerns were.

Hope he reads this and comments on that. Seems that when you really dig into law or even just scratch the surface things get complicated fast.. avoiding unintended consequences can be difficult.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
Climb2ski, I think my points were entirely relevant to yer topic. If the Senate refuses to even vote on a bill by the House, what have we got?

Don't blame it in the House! Blame it on Harry Reid for not even allowing a vote by the Senate!!!!

Who is the obstructionist here? Politics is almost ALWAYS partisan. We don't like it, but that's the way it is.

As I said, I find it stupid that the Senate Majority Leader can block a vote on his whims, WTF???? That is wrong. Vote on it and let the chips fall as they must.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2014 - 04:59pm PT
I do not see it as one side or the other.

Because they are not working for us. They do not have our best interests as their guiding force. The system is a hypocritical mess. Their priorities are corrupted and thus their work is inept, haphazard, unfocused, innefective.

It's almost as if we the people need to free them..to work for us.

Help them help us?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
There are about 10% of the House and 5% of the Senate that do you bidding.

Vote more wisely. And talk to people about why some people truly do suck...

That's why I do.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
How do you vote more wisely?

Candidates don't make it to the ballot until they are chosen by the donors. They don't get back on if they piss em off.

Lets see should I vote for the candidate representing G.E. or the one representing Teamsters local 631? (each may actually represent both to various degree's)

Old Joke.. Will the Senator from Standard Oil please stand up....reply.. which one?

In 1899 it was considered outrageous and a scandal that Standard oil got involved in Florida politics with their money. Now it's considered the norm and protected by the supreme court.

A Senatorial candidate that cannot raise 10 million dollars is considered sub par.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 6, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Why do you think Dems are putting money towards Gop dicks? To defeat Tea-Part guys that present a danger to the "old-boys" club.

The 2 party's are in on the scam. You have to get people that are non-establishment, on both sides!

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
You have to get people that are non-establishment, on both sides!

How? I suggest we change the establishment instead, But again how. More importantly. Before we ask how to change things we should first identify exactly what to change.

You think we have a people problem.. I think we have a structural problem. People are people. They play the game as it's dealt. Gotta change the game.

Without a clear concise and most importantly, effective goal.. there is zero chance of succeeding.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 6, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
Doesn't the tea-party think ebola is coming up through mexico? or is that the "conservatives" who think that? Somebody thumping gawd thinks it. Unclear who.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 6, 2014 - 05:46pm PT
The Established parties are going to let that happen blue? The system's broken dude. It was set up that way. A government of the banker, by the banker, for the banker.....

http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 6, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-tunisia-act-of-one-fruit-vendor-sparks-wave-of-revolution-through-arab-world/2011/03/16/AFjfsueB_story.html


The Washington Post

In Tunisia, act of one fruit vendor sparks wave of revolution through Arab world

By Marc Fisher March 26, 2011

SIDI BOUZID, TUNISIA — On the evening before Mohammed Bouazizi lit a fire that would burn across the Arab world, the young fruit vendor told his mother that the oranges, dates and apples he had to sell were the best he’d ever seen. “With this fruit,” he said, “I can buy some gifts for you. Tomorrow will be a good day.”

For years, Bouazizi had told his mother stories of corruption at the fruit market, where vendors gathered under a cluster of ficus trees on the main street of this scruffy town, not far from Tunisia’s Mediterranean beaches. Arrogant police officers treated the market as their personal picnic grounds, taking bagfuls of fruit without so much as a nod toward payment. The cops took visible pleasure in subjecting the vendors to one indignity after another — fining them, confiscating their scales, even ordering them to carry their stolen fruit to the cops’ cars.

Before dawn on Friday, Dec. 17, as Bouazizi pulled his cart along the narrow, rutted stone road toward the market, two police officers blocked his path and tried to take his fruit. Bouazizi’s uncle rushed to help his 26-year-old nephew, persuading the officers to let the rugged-looking young man complete his one-mile trek.

The uncle visited the chief of police and asked him for help. The chief called in a policewoman who had stopped Bouazizi, Fedya Hamdi, and told her to let the boy work.

Hamdi, outraged by the appeal to her boss, returned to the market. She took a basket of Bouazizi’s apples and put it in her car. Then she started loading a second basket. This time, according to Alladin Badri, who worked the next cart over, Bouazizi tried to block the officer.

“She pushed Mohammed and hit him with her baton,” Badri said.

Hamdi reached for Bouazizi’s scale, and again he tried to stop her.

Hamdi and two other officers pushed Bouazizi to the ground and grabbed the scale. Then she slapped Bouazizi in the face in front of about 50 witnesses.

Bouazizi wept with shame.

“Why are you doing this to me?” he cried, according to vendors and customers who were there. “I’m a simple person, and I just want to work.”

Revolutions are explosions of frustration and rage that build over time, sometimes over decades. Although their political roots are deep, it is often a single spark that ignites them — an assassination, perhaps, or one selfless act of defiance.

In Tunisia, an unusually cosmopolitan Arab country with a high rate of college attendance, residents watched for 23 years as Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali’s dictatorship became a grating daily insult. From Tunis — the whitewashed, low-rise capital with a tropical, colonial feel — to the endless stretches of olive and date trees in the sparsely populated countryside, the complaints were uniform: It had gotten so you couldn’t get a job without some connection to Ben Ali’s family or party. The secret police kept close tabs on ordinary Tunisians. And the uniformed police took to demanding graft with brazen abandon.

Still, the popular rebellion that started here and spread like a virus to Egypt, Libya and the Persian Gulf states, and now to Yemen and Syria, was anything but preordained. The contagion, carried by ordinary people rather than politicians or armies, hits each country in a different and uncontrollable way, but with common characteristics — Friday demonstrations, Facebook connections, and alliances across religious, class and tribal lines. This wave of change happened because aging dictators grew cocky and distant from the people they once courted, because the new social media that the secret police didn’t quite understand reached a critical mass of people, and because, in a rural town where respect is more valued than money, Mohammed Bouazizi was humiliated in front of his friends.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
I like that example Tom.

Eventually things hit a tipping point then something happens to ignite change.

Here we have had the Tea-party and the occupy movement. Occupy stood for nothing other than a general grumpiness. The tea-party doesn't seem much better but at least a bit more focused.

But without an effective goal all we get is fire. I sure don't want that. Rather stick with what we have than chaos.

Lets free our politicians
crankster

Trad climber
Aug 7, 2014 - 06:27am PT
I doubt many of the Perpetual Complainer's posting here even know who their representative is.

Yes, there's plenty to ridicule. Almost the entire Republican delegation is a joke.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2014 - 09:28pm PT
Most expensive midterms in history.

R.I.P. Government of the people by the people for the people in the USA
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:36am PT
America is not being run by the best and the brightest...

There are no laws that say you have to do your job once you are elected...

America has awakened from the American Dream. Now they have to pay a rich white man in order to continue life.

Its too bad all the clean water is tainted with all that fracking fluids that only server to spread the wildfire.


[Click to View YouTube Video]

 I guess we don't get clean air...
I guess we cannot ask for clean water... Big s[spenders made it so that they got to dump that toxic sludge anywhere they want...
Here comes the sludge fires across the country...


Wait.... The republicans are here to help Americans Achieve The American Dream....





Let me ask you..... Do you really believe that?



Why isn't anyone asking... how much influence does McConnells step family have on American legislation.

And lets not forget the drugs found no their ships...

Not connected... but
[Click to View YouTube Video]

 America Gets What It Deserves

There goes any hope for the middle class... and working families...

I'm glad I am not you... But certainly will meet my own for of pain while you do
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2014 - 06:42am PT
The ski is on to something!
John M

climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 09:03am PT
Here is a prime example of that Liberal Democratic thieving buffoonery that was re-elected to the Senate tonight... A fuming Comedian who can't or doesn't know how to pay his taxes.

not really defending the democrats, but this is a poor example. The tax code is a living nightmare. How its read depends on who your lawyer is and your tax accountant.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 5, 2014 - 09:34am PT
Here is a prime example of that Liberal Democratic thieving buffoonery that was re-elected to the Senate tonight... A fuming Comedian who can't or doesn't know how to pay his taxes.

 "the right-wing noise machine."
hashbro

Trad climber
Mental Physics........
Nov 5, 2014 - 10:07am PT
stupidity, apathy and self-centuredness are tragically pervasive among "our" people
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Nov 5, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Unfortunately, the facts are grim.

There are more republicans in america than any other party.
Republicans are smarter in most every way.
It is clear that america wants the "pay to play" representation that the republican party represents.
You and I matter very little in the over all, unless we have a substantial amount of money piled behind us whenever we get to talk to one privately.

But it's mostly because they are smarter and a more benevolent class of people.

They show this all to be true every day.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:31pm PT
We lived okay in small tribes.

Larger tribes survived better (even if individuals did about the same).

Moving forward through history we come to today.

The purpose of a government should be to make it possible for the individual to live and thrive with out interruptions from warring nations and criminals. To perhaps help build and run an infrastructure too.

Those who choose to go for elected office seem to be unaware of this.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 5, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
The purpose of a government should be to make it possible for the individual to live and thrive with out interruptions from warring nations and criminals. To perhaps help build and run an infrastructure too.


This is where the American Voter has really lost their power it seems to me. They have forgotten that government is an artificial construct that can be designed for a purpose. SO many of us have immersed in the system without questioning the purpose. They never consider the purpose and how best to achieve it.

The purpose should not be complicated. Spider summed it up well.

I think it's best stated this way "Government of the people by the people for the people."

Stop thinking inside that box of Liberal or Conservative. The Us vs Them mentality you have been brainwashed to participate in.

Think instead how do I ensure that intelligent honorable dedicated men and women are hired to work for the people. If the government actually worked diligently for the people things would be vastly different than they are now.

Not the childishly insulting PR tested soundbite BS we hear. Instead we could have real discussion and effort to deal with the complex issues. Solutions that would actually work much better.

The key problem is how do we get our government back to working for all instead of just those with power?

Things go far beyond the lines that have been drawn for us. It is not Corporations VS Workers. it is not Environment VS necessary resources.. it MUST be all of the above.. all must thrive and balance. It's difficult to do at best and it's impossible when our societies systems are not constructed to serve all.
MisterE

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
I rarely post on political threads, but the two-party system is designed to divide and conquer.

So it remains and continues.
WBraun

climber
Nov 5, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Yes

But the idiot politards can't see that.

They're long goners and brainwashed fools ...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 26, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
Gohmert presidential commentary in Texas tribune

He is also not a prolific fundraiser, at least on the scale needed to run a viable presidential campaign. Gohmert raised $772,000 for his most recent congressional race. Presidential campaigns are now billion-dollar enterprises.

More presidential race ..uhm I mean money race commentary..

Senator Ted Cruz admits he doesn't have a hope of beating Jeb Bush—in the fundraising game.

"Nobody is going to manage to keep up," the Texas Republican told ABC News in an interview that aired Tuesday. "He is going to shatter every fundraising record that's ever been set. He set the goal of $100 million this first quarter. My guess is he blows past that goal. He ends up raising way more than $100 million."

--


Money may not be the deciding factor in the end.. but it is the deciding factor in the beginning. You can't get there unless you sell yourself to someone other than the people first.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Mar 27, 2015 - 03:33am PT
"Sadly they did not foresee the power of wealthy interests and our systems weakness in being corrupted to serve it instead."

read "Plain, Honest Men" by Richard Beeman

this is not to convince you to agree with everything the framers accomplished but to show that they were not only highly intelligent but also remarkably prescient

in fact, they did forsee the potential for corruption even in the near-perfect structure they created; originally, there was a three-way sharing of power: 1) the nation would elect a president; 2) the people would elect representatives; and 3) the states would appoint senators...this system ended with the 17th amendment that allowed "the people" to elect senators, eliminating any substantive difference between senators and representatives and taking power away from the states

repeal the 17th! it won't solve everything, but it will restore some balance

other suggestions:

congress should convene only twice a year: 6 weeks jan-feb and 6 weeks sep-oct; all bills must be introduced in the opening session and voted on in the closing session--RIGHT BEFORE ELECTIONS (the prez can always recall congress in an emergency); this will keep members close to their constituents and away from lobbyists

all members of congress must be present for all debates on bills; no show = no vote

all congressional salaries (and their staff's) should be determined and paid by their constituents (i like ted cruz, but he doesn't work for me so i shouldn't have to pay him)

no bill can be longer than the civil rights bill (65 pages, 12-point font, one-inch margins)--period!

either end riders or give the prez the line-item veto

ALL discretionary spending must appear in a single separate bill with the names of the rep/sen asking for the money

a balanced budget amendment

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
The biggest single thing voters can do for anti-corruption is to vote for the next president who may get Citzens United reversed.
This basically means vote against a Repub for the next president.
It is the conservatives on the Supreme Court who held that corporations are people.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
^^^^
+1
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
The biggest single thing voters can do for anti-corruption is to vote for the next president who may get Citzens United reversed.
This basically means vote against a Repub for the next president.
It is the conservatives on the Supreme Court who held that corporations are people.

The most important thing the American people can do to avoid corruption in government is to elect leaders who limit the government's role to enrich some people at the expense of others. The left's rants against free speech, denominated as being against the majority opinion Citizens United, are nonsensical. As long as the government can determine economic outcomes base don nothing more than the power to do so, corruption will be rampant.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 27, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
^^^
-1


John, I appreciate your high ideal, but that's just not in touch with reality.

$$$ = Political Power.

Corporations are not people.

These are realities.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Mar 27, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
Corporations are not people.

These are realities.

With all due respect, corporations are a shorthand for people acting in concert, as are political parties, interest groups such as the American Alpine Club or the Access Fund, or any other combination of people united by a common interest. While muzzling the Access Fund would not muzzle any one individual person, it would greatly affect a very large number of people, and make their voice more difficult to be heard. When we say corporations aren't people, in the free speech context, we're saying that speech by groups of people acting together is not protected speech. That's contrary to both the letter and spirit of the First Amendment.

John
couchmaster

climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
Hmm, can't resist tractor pull....Mayhaps we need to expand the voting roles to make it easier for people to vote? These vids should help explain what we need to do to straighten this mess out. Here's Mark Dice working with some normal voters.


First up:

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Then

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Finally:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

It could be funny if you were not a US citizen and lived in another country with a high literacy rate, say, like Norway, Japan or Sweden.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2015 - 04:46pm PT
elect leaders who limit the government's role to enrich some people at the expense of others

How can we do that when we do not get to choose who is on the ballot?

Almost the only way you get on the ballot is to get the approval of powerful special interests with big dollars.

Serious question!

Even the majority opinion stated that freedom of speech is not the highest ideal when it comes to elections and that curtailing donations can be warranted if there is real danger of corruption of the election process. Then they stated that the donations are not currently corrupting the process..

(I disagree with the last part of that strongly.)

I severely paraphrased this from vague memory.. but the gist is there.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 27, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
The problem isn't completely the Representatives we have ...

The problem is the voters and the non-voters. They are 100% responsible.

They have been corrupted by big money to vote for Republicans Or NOT Vote At all.

all the millions of dark money goes to formulating propaganda and funneling it to Right Wing Media, voter suppression and Negative campaign ads.
100s of millions go into negative campgaign ads which have been proven to do one thing very well, discourage voting (They're all the same, even the Dem is bad, why vote at all, it's hopeless!)

If the populace were not bombarded by all this misinformation they would vote a lot differently.

And if everyone was an informed voter, this country would look a lot different.
Jorroh

climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:27pm PT
"With all due respect, corporations are a shorthand for people acting in concert"

Actually that is complete and utter rubbish.

My ownership of a portion of widget corp. does not in any way indicate that I support their financial donations to the gumby party.

My political interests as an owner are of zero concern to those who run the corporations that I own a share of.
10b4me

Social climber
Mar 27, 2015 - 06:38pm PT
With all due respect, corporations are a shorthand for people

John, I respect you as a voice of reason, albeit with a conservative viewpoint. However, I disagree with your statement.
Those "people" are corporate CEOs.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
Here is a real patriot ..he has the right message. He put his life on the line for it and for a country he clearly loves.

After listening to his views I feel like I found a lost brother.

Gyrocopter lands in the capitol.

http://video.tampabay.com/A-Special-Delivery-for-Congress-28895951?vcid=28895951&freewheel=90964&sitesection=tbtimes


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