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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
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When I see images of flight recorders been handed over to Malaysians and at the same time - reports that rebels refusing to give them away
don't know what yr talking about here-- the times and guardian both covered that in real time.
we're all guessing at the behind-the-scenes negotiation, of course. but it isn't coincidence that the handover basically coincided with the vote on the un resolution.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 22, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
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The guardian article - well, only slightly accurate, and mostly quoting rumors. You could write one like that yourself if you just got the assignment and spend half an hour on the internet researching the subject
what are you talking about? "only slightly accurate"-- on what? write it myself? the whole point is that their reporters on the ground interviewed locals who corroborated the video and still photos. that's how you do it for news journalism in real time. do i have great faith in eyewitness accounts? no. but eyewitness accounts that corroborate a variety of still photos and at least one video, yes, that's pretty helpful.
or are you saying that the guardian is lying, that they don't have reporters there, the reporters didn't interview locals?
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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Guardian is withholding the information. Close enough to lying.
There are on-the ground eyewitness reports of SU-25 in the air. I'm sure Guardian journalist heard them. Any pubs yet? Or it is not in the assignment?
Rebels ANNOUNCED that they captured 1 Buk launcher 2 weeks ago. They ANNOUNCED that they used it to shut down Ukrainian army AN-26 on Monday LAST week. Why are you calling discovering that rebels indeed do have it, a week later - journalism?
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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Bruce, My thinking is a bit lumpy, so it is easy to misread. What I meant to say, exactly, that Russians did not say SU-25 were used to shut down the plane. They described, in detail, Ukrainian air defense activity in the area at the time of the crash, which BTW according to Ukrainians did not happen.They were actually pointing at Ukrainian Buk deployed into Torez area, 8 km south of the crash site - new information at least to me, may be Guardian had it before? Sorry I missed then.
And they pointed at 2 SU-25-s. They said that one of SU-25 s approached 777 to the distance of 3-5km right before the crash, minutes if I remember. And they said among other things, that after the plane went down SU-25 was making circles around the crash site surveying it, for 4 minutes.
They presented sat images of Ukrainian Buks locations - I understand, this is boring technical detail for the public to see so thee is no reason to mention, nor publish the images.
They also described the air to air capabilities of SU-25 - which is a bomber, not a fighter. 2 R-60, 7km operational celling, can reach 10000m for a short time. It is a capable aircraft. Never approached 777 closer than 3 km, the reach of R-60 is 10km, 5 km guaranteed interception. They never said it was the weapon used, but it is definitely capable of shutting down 777 - according to Reilly anyways, and 2 of them flew into the area in question minutes before the incident.
Then when someone wrights that Russians said that SU-25 was used to shut down the 777 and that is not true - is mudding the waters, or - in plain wards, lying. Russians specifically did not put out any conclusions, only presented the intel. They never mentioned rebels Buk, not denied it existence,
Looks like (that is me saying, not the Russians, based on the same info which was repeated by Guardian) rebel's Buk was somewhere in Snezhnoe - about the same distance from the crash site as Ukrainian deployed Buk was at that moment. BTW if you believe that you need lots of training to operate Buk - which is BS BTW, well, here is a well-trained professional crew, right were you were looking for it. Not some drunk Russians
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labrat
Trad climber
Auburn, CA
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Jul 22, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
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"viani, Have you considered for a moment that you may be biased in alegiance toward Russia?"
x2!
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Why me is important? I'm trying to figure the facts in that mess. I know people generally dislike the truth. So it is OK to dislike me for that.
I did watch the war at Ukraine East for some time, so my starting point is different that yours I guess, and I see many obvious fallbacks of US media better that you do. Propaganda I guess them the fallbacks are called. I dislike been lied to. Do not care much about Europe media - this is not were I live.
One fact I've learned in life BTW is that one easy way to get away with a theft is to cry "Thieves!!" louder that others. See anything like that around MH17?
BTW are you guys biased against Russia? Just asking.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
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vlani has good brain.
Those that argue against him are stoopid with no brain at all ......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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Vlani, I'm sure you're a good person too. But I just can't help thinking
of that quote of Turgenev:
"Nobody respects the truth as much as a Russian because they are the
greatest liars in the world."
Don't shoot the messenger, okay? ;-)
(BTW, I have books on disinformation)
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
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Those things fly directly into the engine.
Not necessarily. The R-60 (AA-8)is an all aspect missile. Beause of the closing velocity (1-3 mach depending on aspect), the missile is proximity fused, so even if the missile doesn't directly impact the aircraft it still causes big time fragmentation damage.
Of course none of that matters, since ELINT is showing it as a Buk (SA-11) launch. Which is why the rebels are currently cutting those pieces off the aircraft that corroborate that evidence.
Or else it was aliens
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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What did Turgenev new about the rest of the world?
The biggest liars are politicians, regardless of nationality.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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I think we can all agree on that
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 22, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
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Koneshno, but politicians as a professional class didn't really exist
when he was writing, pravilno?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 22, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
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Assuming Ukraine was responsible.
Wouldn't the separatists and Russia want full investigation and disclosure right away?
Why would the separatists go to so much trouble interfering with the independent airline safety officials at the site?
Why would they interfere once they let the officials in?
Why didn't they turn over the flight recorders immediately?
And why did they apparently not invite the Russians in to help?
The very strong implication is they didn't want the facts known before they could alter them by moving/destroying/changing evidence.
If they had nothing to hide, one would expect them to welcome all the non-Ukrainian help they could get.
Looks like they knew they had really f**ed up, panicked and entered news damage control.
Evidence? The YouTube vids that were taken down.
US missile tracking imagery showing the ground launch from near the Russian border.
And for the R-60 air to air missile? The photo of the jillion holes in the side of the fuselage pretty much refutes that. The early R-60 has an expanding rod warhead. The newer ones a continuous rod warhead.
This rapidly expanding ring, when hitting the aircraft, can be more effective than an equivalent fragmentation warhead: the ring's effectiveness decreases as 1/R, rather than 1/R2 for fragments.[2] Portions of the aircraft intercepted by the expanding ring will receive a continuous cut through the skin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead
Classic propaganda. Obfuscate the simple truth by throwing out a dozen red herrings. Sow uncertainty and dissent among the critics. Blame one or two others as culprits. Interfere with collecting evidence. For good measure blame the victim: why was MH17 even there? (because plenty of other airlines were using the same corridor)
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
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Not going through all your points
US missile tracking imagery showing the ground launch from near the Russian border. The whole area is near the Russian border, that is very obscure statement.
Have you seen the said imagery? Could you post the link? That is one thing I was asking all along - where was the launch position? Withholding this information is mudding the waters, unless you could come up with a valid reason not to do so. I cannot.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 22, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
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It is easy to call Russians reports false. But you cannot call false the obvious - complete silence in the Western media about them in the last 24 hours. This by itself is a very telling and disturbing fact. I was naive to think that at least some media is at least somewhat independent. We are hiding the facts, as you hopefully can see. Well, if you know the truth but do not want to share - means you do not like what you know, right? Bu seriously - why they are hiding the facts? 'Trust us people we know we are doing the right thing' does not work, not after Snowden.
Here we go with the usual conspiracy theory nonsense.
And this..The biggest liars are politicians, regardless of nationality. Wow, takes a lot of balls to say this! Zzzz. Climbers are easily the best liars.
As usual, the NYTimes has it correct..
On Monday, Dutch forensics experts and representatives of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe finally examined the four refrigerated rail cars holding the remains of the crash victims, which were taken to Kharkiv, Ukraine, for proper identification. As President Obama said in a brief statement on Monday, returning the remains to their families as soon as possible is “the least we can do.”
But it is far from all that must be done. The facts about the shooting down of the plane must be established by trusted, international experts. The most likely finding, for which American and other Western officials say there is strong evidence, is that the jetliner was brought down by rockets fired from rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine. That would require not only ground-to-air missiles but also the expertise and equipment to guide them, raising the possibility of assistance from Russia itself. Russia has denied any such role, and its military officials have pushed a competing scenario, inculpating Ukraine.
These are very serious charges. Innocent victims are sadly common in conflicts, but whoever unleashed a lethal missile not knowing how to distinguish between a military and a civilian plane is not only irresponsible and stupid, but a war criminal. The evidence lies in those same fields that the separatists have effectively sealed off for days. Though they surrendered the flight recorder boxes to Malaysian officials on Monday, their delay gave them plenty of time to hide or destroy incriminating evidence.
President Vladimir Putin of Russia issued a statement on Monday saying, “Everything possible must be done to ensure that international experts can work in safety at the crash site,” and Russia joined in a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding full access to the crash site and condemning the downing of the plane. But then Mr. Putin has said many reasonable and conciliatory things since the Ukrainian crisis began, and he has done nothing to rein in the thugs who have seized control of parts of eastern Ukraine, or to block the fighters and sophisticated weapons supplied them from Russia.
In that same statement, Mr. Putin also sought to transfer blame to Ukraine, saying the tragedy would not have happened if Kiev had maintained a cease-fire. And he sanctimoniously declared “no one has the right to use this tragedy to pursue their own political goals.” That is not terribly convincing coming from Mr. Putin, who has cynically encouraged a dangerous secessionist conflict to grow until it became a threat to the world.
The comments from European leaders have been clear and tough, but words will count for little unless European Union foreign ministers enforce more stringent sanctions against Russia if it fails to cooperate in an immediate and independent investigation of the plane crash, and take tangible measures to curb the rebels. After the downing of Flight 17 and the brutish handling of the victims, it is time for Europe to hold Mr. Putin to his words.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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Jul 22, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
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Two fully loaded Ukraine fighter jets flying next to Malaysian Airliner minutes before shut down make things little more complicated .
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 22, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
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Nothing complicated at all
Just a thug's toadies f*#ked up!
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Jul 22, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
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^^^ TGT, please move your image. Its skewing the page, and making it necessary to scroll back and forth.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jul 22, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
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This incident was likely a mistake.
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Jul 22, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
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This incident was likely a mistake. That would be the better outcome of that horror story. It will be much worse if it turns out that it was a premeditated crime serving the goals of some f*ed up third grade politician in some f*ed up third grade country.
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