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Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jul 17, 2014 - 10:49am PT
Whatever happened, that airline definitely has bad karma !
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jul 17, 2014 - 10:59am PT
the majority of airlines have banned flights over this area. There is bad luck, and then there is recklessness.

on the political side - Russia has made their bed, now they can sleep in it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:02am PT
The FAA sorta predicted this

The whole area has been off limits for US carriers.

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/04/25/2014-09545/prohibition-against-certain-flights-in-the-simferopol-ukfv-flight-information-region-fir

The FAA has safety and national security concerns regarding flight operations in a portion of the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR. On March 28, 2014, the Russian Federation issued a Notice-to-Airmen (NOTAM) purporting to establish unilaterally a new FIR, effective April 3, 2014, in a significant portion of the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR. The affected airspace includes sovereign Ukrainian airspace over the Crimean Peninsula and the associated Ukrainian territorial sea, as well as international airspace managed by Ukraine over the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov under a regional air navigation agreement approved by the Council of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO). This action by the Russian Federation contradicts international law, including provisions of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, done at Chicago, December 7, 1944 (also known as the “Chicago Convention”) and the standards established in Annex 11 to the Chicago Convention. Ukraine has rejected the Russian Federation's purported establishment of a new FIR within the existing Simferopol (UKFV) FIR and continues to provide air traffic control services in both Ukrainian territorial airspace and international airspace assigned to Ukraine.

In response to the Russian Federation's actions, Ukraine established a prohibited area over the Crimean Peninsula for flight operations below flight level 290 by means of a NOTAM and closed various air traffic services (ATS) route segments. The Russian Federation further responded by the issuance of a NOTAM that rejected and directly conflicts with Ukrainian NOTAMs concerning the establishment of the prohibited area and the route segment closures. On April 2, 2014, ICAO's Regional Director for Europe and the North Atlantic Regions issued a state letter to countries and their civil aviation authorities highlighting the possible existence of serious risks to the safety of international civil flights. ICAO stated that, due to the unsafe situation where more than one ATS provider may be controlling flights within the same airspace from April 3, 2014, 0600 Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) onwards, consideration should be given to implementing measures to avoid the airspace and to circumnavigate the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR with alternative routings.

In the FAA's view, the potential for civil aircraft to receive confusing and conflicting air traffic control instructions from both Ukrainian and Russian ATS providers while operating in the portion of the Simferopol (UKFV) FIR covered by this SFAR is unsafe and presents a potential hazard to civil flight operations in the disputed airspace. In addition, political and military tension between Ukraine and the Russian Federation remains high, and compliance with air traffic control instructions issued by the authorities of one country could result in a civil aircraft being misidentified as a threat and intercepted or otherwise engaged by air defense forces of the other country
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:09am PT
It did occur to me that this might turn out to be similar to the Korean Airline that was shot down years ago over the Kamchatka Peninsula. It turned out in that case, that the pilots had been routinely flying over Russian territory to conserve fuel and then received a kickback from the savings.

Who knows? Maybe what this country needs is a new Cold War? I don't see us achieving unity under any other circumstance.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Let's invade! Bombs are the answer!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:16am PT
What is really frustrating about this latest incident is not knowing who to direct my hate at. Until proven otherwise I will hold 6 year hold illegal immigrants responsible.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Wow! Just got a good deal on Malaysian airlines: San Francisco to Bangkok round trip $30.00 US funds and first class.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:22am PT
From a previously reliable source over at Rantburg.

#9 People I know say the "rebels" got a Buk system in June. That has the reach 18000m. And the leader Strelkov said this morning "We warned Ukraine not to fly in our skies", and about an hour before the reports came in, rebel forces were claiming a shoot down of Ukrainian aircraft.

Inexperienced crew can make serious targeting errors, and without proper command discipline its entirely possible to target civilian airliners.

In other words: the rebels did it, and they did it with Russian supplied weapons which required high level political approval, this blood is on Putin's hands, and on the hands of the savages of people who encouraged the rebels with bigoted nationalistic bullsh#t.
Posted by OldSpook 2014-07-17 13:47
Jodie

Sport climber
Oregon
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:39am PT
"the 80's called and wants their foreign policy back" :p
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Malaysian pilot has some culpability flying over a war zone
where 2 other aircraft shot down this week.






crankster

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Terrible.

The right-wing conspiracy theories should be starting soon.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:53am PT
What insanity. Vice magazine runs a series called Russian Roulette: Dispatches from the Ukraine:

https://news.vice.com/topic/ukraine

It's worth watching them all to get a feel for the madness that is going on there.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:56am PT
It is beyond me why anybody, especially Americans, were still flying with these clowns.
What sort of good deal is worth your life? They were on the verge of
bankruptcy anyway and you were likely to get stranded somewhere when they
folded their wings, so to speak.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:00pm PT
Malaysian pilot has some culpability flying over a war zone
where 2 other aircraft shot down this week.

More so the airline's flight planning and dispatch departments. the pilots have little to no say over the routing, and even the speeds that they fly. It is all optimized for min cost, and I guarantee fuel savings was a factor in flying the route that they did.
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Where did you see that it was shot down? The news reports I have seen say that it crashed and a cause has not been determined.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
Wag more
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
Puke less
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 17, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
Just used valuable lunch time to plot the great circle shortest fuel saving
route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and it passes almost a
120 miles north of the crash site which would have been out of the war zone.



http://www.flightstats.com/go/FlightStatus/flightStatusByFlightPositionDetails.do?id=405599863&airlineCode=MH&flightNumber=17


would it be worth recovering the tracking pings of the pilots cell phones
the last 24hrs in Amsterdam. Did they have a good time in the red light district and missed the news about the shoot downs in eastern Ukraine?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
ooops, Russia F@#KED UP!

T Hocking, how the f*#k are you gonna decide that Russia is somehow responsible for it?

PS: I am Ukrainian. Have no clue who is responsible. And believe the point of this attack was to throw the blame on the other side. In any case, It is either pro Russian rebels in Ukraine, or pro Ukrainian forces. I don't think Russia has much to do with it.

In any case, carry on with your brainwashed delusions..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
Looks like nothing more than another

BBBBBBBEEEEEEENNNNNNNGGGGGGHHHHHHAAAAZZZZZIIIIIII!!!!!!!!

opportunity for Republicans to show how 'soft' Dems have been on foreign policy, with the upshot of undermining Hillary's prospects.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
I don't think Russia has much to do with it

even if this turns out to be a non-military, "normal" aviation accident, because it happened at this location, a place that Russia has gone out of its way to make and maintain as unstable, this incident can become the match in the dry tinderbox.

don't see the "truth" coming out of this any time soon. In the meantime, everyone can use it as an excuse to execute whatever plan favors their agenda.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Obviously the shooters are the culprit. I think what Ron meant to say is, Malaysia airlines was clearly negligent in planning the flight through that airpace when it was easily avoidable.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
Braunini, I'm sure the courts will find Malaysian criminally negligent.
If they still have landing rights in US they should be revoked immediately.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
Who dun it and where they got their hands on the missile.


http://news.yahoo.com/rebel-suggests-insurgents-shot-down-malaysia-plane-mistake-174750060.html
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 17, 2014 - 01:57pm PT

interesting blog from two days ago

Yesterday's news that long-range anti-aircraft rockets, apparently fired from Russia, downed a Ukrainian transport plane flying at 21,000ft, is worrying. Today, a Ukrainian jet bombed allegedly separatists in Snizhne, near Donetsk. Take a look at eastern Ukraine on FlightRadar24.com, and you'll see a procession of civilian aircraft flying along an air corridor between Luhansk, Donetsk, Horlivka, Kramatorsk - places where battles are raging and people are being killed. Yet blithely oblivious to what's happening on the ground, some of the world's largest civilian airliners are criss-crossing the area at 38,000ft.

Below: a Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A330, followed by a Singapore Airlines Airbus A380, flying over the battlefields below. Other planes from India, Malaysia, Qatar, Austria, Germany are also overflying this area (click to enlarge). Eddie reminds me of the shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 by

http://jeziorki.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/high-over-eastern-ukraine.html

crankster

Trad climber
Jul 17, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
Didn't take long...the Wingnut-o-Sphere is abuzz with the news that the president maintained his normal schedule today, even having lunch.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 17, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
Man....who has time to do that kind of sh#t?

(Mock avatars, that is)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 17, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
It's Malaysia's fault, that's all you need to know.
overwatch

climber
Jul 17, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
Good one
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
from http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/latest-updates-on-malaysia-airlines-plane-crash-in-ukraine/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

Ukraine Says Rebels Spoke of Crash in Intercepted Calls

Ukraine’s intelligence agency — the State Security Service, known as the S.B.U. — just released what it said was audio from intercepted phone calls between separatist rebels and Russian military intelligence officers on Thursday, in which they appeared to acknowledge shooting down a civilian plane.

The Ukrainian foreign ministry sent reporters a link to the edited audio of the calls posted on YouTube, with English subtitles, by the S.B.U.

According to a translation of the Russian audio by the English-language Kyiv Post, the recording begins with a separatist commander, Igor Bezler, telling a Russian military intelligence official, “We have just shot down a plane.”

In another call, a man who seems to be at the scene says that a group of Cossack militiamen shot down the plane. He adds that it was a passenger plane and that the debris contains no sign of any military equipment. Asked if there are any weapons, he says: “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medical equipment, towels, toilet paper.”

Asked if there are any documents among the debris, the man says, “Yes, of one Indonesian student.”

Myroslava Petsa, a Ukrainian journalist in Kiev, said that the rebels sounded shocked by what they found in the wreckage.


and translation of call here:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).

One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
Anyone who can read spanish - is it legit?
https://twitter.com/spainbuca
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
"Cossacks"^^^^

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/03/31/198583/-History-for-Kossacks-Cossacks#

The unenviable reputation of the Cossacks as brutal executioners in the Czar's service originated from this phase of their service in the Russian Army. Three Russian words -- the pogrom, the knut (or nagaika) and the Cossack -- entered hand in hand into the pages of Western dictionaries and school books. The impression was created and universally accepted that the Cossacks conducted the pogroms and terrified the Jewish population of the western provinces of Russia
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
I am surprised that none of you have (as of yet) blamed this horrible tragedy on President Obama.

A surprising display of maturity for those posteurs here (so far) of a conservative bent.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
Those Cossacks ^^ were exterminated by Stalin. The modern ones claim the ancestry, but in reality just clowns.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
Hear you there ,Fritz.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
It's coming, Fritz.

'Another example of how Dems are weak on foreign policy!'

Translated: Undermine Hillary 'cause we got nuthin'....
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
Rush Limbaugh did so almost immediately.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 17, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
I can grip the idea that the airline is at fault,Ron.
But just wait,This will turn sideways,mark my words.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Anyone who can read spanish - is it legit?

if you mean the video of plane going down in flames, no. It is from some other accident. Nothing on CNN site about it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
"But just wait,This will turn sideways,mark my words."


Annnnnnnddd guess where that sideways turn will start....?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
I heard on CNN that some intercepted communications indicate that the separatists thought that they had shot down a Ukrainian Antonov An-26 military transport.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
They did that about a week ago.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 17, 2014 - 05:56pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Anyone here able to translate this intercept?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:10pm PT
Obama is out of control and can't control his foreign policies.




















Just want to let that simmer.

TFPU, WBraun.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
the intercept ^^
Sounds like a fake. The way they speak - very similar to actors speaking in Russian movies, very elaborate.
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
EVERYONE FREAK OUT FIRE WEAPONS ITS THE ONLY ANSWER
bergbryce

climber
East Bay, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
I WOULD TOTALLY HIRE THOSE GUYS TO PROTECT MY CHANGE JAR
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Anyone here able to translate this intercept?

from my post on the previous page:

translation of call here:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

and here:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
Palestinian's dressed as clowns were in the cockpit...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jul 17, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
Forgive TGT for missing that...it takes forever for his 386 Compaq & dialup modem to load pages.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 17, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
Tensions with Russia and the US are at a level as high as any day of the cold war now.
Never too early for a little yellow journalism eh, Ron? You don't even remember the Cold War, and I don't mean the Raygun years!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
Werner scores again!

At time of the shootdown, it has been reported that Vlad was returning from BRICS conference in Brazil to Moscow. It's possible that this plane was mistaken for his plane.

A couple of problems though.

Why would Putin's pilot fly over a zone where other planes were shot down?

Putin's plane would have had multiple anti-missile counter measures on board. Maybe he deployed those measures and the missile found the next nearest target. The planes were reportedly minutes apart at that airspace.

Why would pro-Russian rebels publicy show up at the crash if they shot it down? Are they that stupid, or just concerned?

We need more info. I cannot see Putin doing this. He's more clever than this. He'd have known that this would be blamed on him.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
From Russia Today:

Reports that Putin flew similar route as MH17, presidential airport says 'hasn't overflown Ukraine for long time'

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
Piutin's IL-96 painted almost the same colors as Malaysian Air 777, except it has a Russian flag on it's tail and large "RUSSIA" instead of 'Malaysian Air' on it. And 4 engines, a little detail. Size is about the same. It supposedly was in the are at the moment of the crash.

There is a report of 2 Ukrainian military jets closely following the 777 3 minutes before the crash.

All that can be another fake anyways.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Werner...What channel is your pirate , radio , talk-show on...? rj
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
BTW to support Ron's take on Malaysian Air responsibility. Over the last 2 months over that area of conflict about 20 aircrafts were downed, something like 5 bombers, 2 transport planes, the rest is military helicopters. Most were taken down by smaller missals with about 3000-3500m celling.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:35pm PT
Werner...What channel is your pirate , radio , talk-show on...? rj

WBSA 91.1

All mental speculation, all the time





*Not to be confused with non-mental speculation
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
Anybody who believes any 'reports' from Russia or the Ukraine has been owned. These are
the people who invented disinformation.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
Hey now...I'm sure there will be a full and accurate disclosure of whatever is on the black boxes
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:42pm PT
Yes - that's why I watch Wolf Blitzer!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
Braunini...WBSA...? I googled that and all i could find was Werner Braun Stupid Austrian..? WTF...! rj
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 17, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
Screw the plane - anyone else notice that Israel has invaded the Gaza strip?

Go short on Oil Futures anyone?
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
Hammas or Hummus - only Trader Joe's knows for sure.

I still think my 401(k) will tank tomorrow.
Rudbud

Gym climber
Grover Beach, CA
Jul 17, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
Yer all stoopid American mental speculators.

The Ukrainian terrorists thought it was the Putinators plane.

The Putinator just flew over minutes earlier.

They missed him and thought the Malaysian airliner was him in it.

Yes it's Obama's fault ultimately.

He started this sh!t in Ukriane months ago thru the bitch Victoria Nuland and that numb f*#k terrorist McCain.

Obama is out of control and can't control his foreign policies.

All his stupid foreign policy people are out of control.

The whole Ukraine debacle was started to ultimately save the petrol-dollar.

You Americans are stooopid as the rocks in yer heads.

The dumb fuk nutcase politard Crankcase will now have another leg humper secession because he's so stoopid gay homo.

Heh heh rolls eyes .....

Werner for President! Vitaley for Vice Pres!
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 17, 2014 - 11:51pm PT
Someone smart for president? It will break the tradition.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:49am PT
Yeah, those Rhodes Scholar's, Harvard & Yale grads don't know anything. Climbers, now there's a bunch you want to go to for advice on foreign policy and economics.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:12am PT
We once had a president that knew how to deal with murderers!

One speech and he completely galvanized world opinion.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:00am PT
Imagine, instead of a loose missile, it was a loose nuke. We could be waking up to a warning to stay inside as the radioactive cloud passes overhead.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:03am PT
The FAA has forbidden US airlines from over-flying the Crimea since April. Apparently all
those airlines thought that saving a few thousands on fuel was worth it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:14am PT
Nice clip of Reagan.

Anybody remember that we shot down an airliner too?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:15am PT
well,that one was attacking a US naval vessel. ;-|
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:16am PT
Everything points to the separatists and a captured missile system.

But, the separatists are a wholly owned subsidiary of the GRU and the Putin thugocracy.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:18am PT
Reagan always gets my vote as the worst president in modern history. Lovable dunce? Not so lovable according to his kids.

vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:24am PT
Ron, looks like they are the only ones who has the capabilities. 10000m is pretty high.

Recently the 'terrorists' acquired 1 Ukrainian SU 25 bomber, and even used it once in the fight. In response, Ukrainian Buks were deployed into the area of conflict.

The 'terrorist' also have 1 Buk launcher, but with no supporting equipment it is efficient up to 6000m ceiling. They must have used it to shut down Ukrainian transport plane on Monday - it was flying too high for shoulder-launcher missiles. My guess that technically, if you are lucky, you could hit a plane at 10000m with a stand-alone Buk launcher as well.
Baggins

Boulder climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:31am PT
Obama just confirmed that the missile originated from separatist held territory. This plus the intercepted phone call of the separatists describing the targeting and downing of a "ukraine military supply plane" which they consequently realize is in fact a civilian plane (ie MH17) makes the case sealed tight, no doubt left now. Whats next for the region is another matter however.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:33am PT
The missiles have a ceiling over 25km. and as far as the standalone tracking of a huge 777 that is squawking its transponder..I think that might not be too tough
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 09:38am PT
Yes the civil airplane been directed/allowed to fly over the war zone is totally at fault of Ukrainian authorities. And yes Malaysians should of know better.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 18, 2014 - 10:01am PT
Pretty insane to have a no-fly zone to FL 320 but allow airliners to overfly at FL330.
More insane to accept that routing.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2014 - 10:48am PT
With so many cell phones, you just can't hide your massive missile anywhere!


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/07/caught-on-tape-russian-buk-sam-missile-launcher-in-ukraine-with-missing-missile/
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:10am PT
It should be two missiles missing? One was used on Monday.

Assuming too much I guess.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:18am PT
tgt, thanks for posting that in its entirety.

Yeah, I guess that's one reason why I'm a so-called Reagan Democrat.

Then again, I liked Jimmy Carter, too.



And as far as today goes, I'm grateful to the hilt my president is Obama, not Putin!
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
President Reagan was actually fairly bright. Her husband, Ronnie, not so much.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 18, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
Yep,she was a good potus.

They [abc news] are saying the truck carrying only 2 of 4 missles was filmed booking back to Russia from the area where fired.
Dead to rights,Russia and Putin have some answering to do.
That said,NATO warned commercial airlines to forgo flying over eastern Ukraine.
As Ron has said ,the airline has some fault in this.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
It looks more and more like the airliner was a set up. Who actually shot it down is unclear, but less important. Unclear even was that a missile or a plane.

And even more unclear is who is the target of that set up. Rebels? Ukrainian president? Putin?
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Is that you klimmer?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:16pm PT
Interestingly the twitter https://twitter.com/spainbuca that supposedly belongs to the spanish air traffic controller working in Ukraine does not exist anymore.

From what I understand using google translate yesterday he was talking about two fighter jets next to Malaysian Boeing 3 minutes before the crash, and about military appearing in control tower minutes after the crash, like they were waiting behind the doors. He was saying 'if they shut me down I still have put that out'.

He was a naive guy, I guess.
Greg Barnes

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
Set up? Ha ha!

Ukrainian government would never risk shooting down anything which might have a Russian citizen on it - might as well hand Putin a "please invade us again" invitation on a gold platter. Besides the separatists probably don't even have large airplanes flying at high altitude (or any planes at all?).

Russians are almost certainly not incompetent enough to target a civilian airliner.

Which leaves the separatists, who also happen to control the territory, and happen to have successfully shot down a large high altitude Ukranian government plane recently.

Duh.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
AN-26 is half the speed turboprop, cannot fly higher that 7500m. Much easier target.

Pobly no difference for the modern warfare though.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:28pm PT
tioga wrote,
America-hating racist criminal Obama... Obama should burn in hell, he's in on every civilian killed in Eastern Ukraine...

omg! now suddenly all your last year's posts make sense!!


Hey, where's Daphne and whatevergirrl, maybe they can get their angst up over something that really matters. :)
Capt.

climber
some eastside hovel
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
Some of the people on this site just quite simply must be ignored. tioga is one. Sh!t, I didn't ingore.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
The fruitcakes are ready!
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
The picture (they keep showing) of the toilet paper rolls (unrolled)
falling out of the sky near to the smoke plume tells
us something of how this Boeing 777 got ripped open at altitude.



Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
Classy.

Good day to stop taking your meds huh?

Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Is it a full moon or something
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Tioga, you crack me up. Thanks for the laugh!
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
Tioga, you are behaving like an azzHOLE. Jeeze dude, get a grip.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
Did the voices in your head say they were
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 18, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
Well all of you actually

Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha! So, like most threads this has turned into the Revenge of the Delusional.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Ron on page 1
Which makes Malaysian airliner company the true culprit here
Great. Blame the victim. "Culprit" requires intent. Am I a culprit if I stupidly walk out into the street and get run over?

So why WAS the Malaysian airliner flying that route?
That's a very good question.
Some facts among the noise.
 Until very recently, approximately last week, the separatists only had shoulder fired AA missiles, commonly called ManPads. Max altitude about 3500 meters/11000 feet. Zero threat to an airliner at altitude.
 On Monday, a Ukraine heavy transport was shot down flying at high altitude. Ukraine thought the separatists didn't have high altitude missiles and blamed Russia.
 Unlike the US/Nato/Ukraine/Russia, the separatists are likely not connected with an integrated air defense network which is capable of determining (sometimes) the nature of that blip on the radar screen.
 Whoever launched the missile yesterday had no way of knowing it was a civilian airliner. It was just blips on the radar screens.
 Airlines have been flying over Afghanistan for years and still do. None have been shot down.
 the IAOC had not closed the Ukraine air routes as they have now.
 Russia had not closed the route MH17 was about to enter.

Remember the USS Vincennes and the Iranian airliner?
The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.
According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter (a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force).
One of our most advanced anti-aircraft ships couldn't tell the difference between an Airbus at 14,000 feet and an F-14.
the airliner was transmitting an identification friend or foe code for a civilian aircraft, but Captain William C. Rogers III in an interview insisted that he believed the code alone did not mean the aircraft was non-hostile. Captain Rogers described the attack as a self-defense measure to save his ship and the lives of the crew.
It's called the Fog Of War
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
Hey guys, please stop commenting on this story, there were not enough Americans on board to have an opinion. Thanks in advance



Pinc, this is where you make a comment critical of the US government
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
Excellent troll tioga . . . you are joking, right?

Pretty sad situation this . . . yet another paragraph in the time written novel, "Human Savagery".
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:06pm PT
Yea well look at you guys, posting up all your f*#king American presidential videos and crap, its stupid. It is funny how America think they are the all mighty when they can't even feed there own people.

Right on cue, thanks


It's almost like you should shut up about it though since by your logic it's got "nothing to do with you"
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
America will be the down fall of the world

You may well be correct, who knows? Your position, however, is a gross simplification of the overall depth and magnitude of the human condition.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
Good job taking this thread that has nothing to do with America and making it all about America I guess

Stay tuned for more cutting edge logic, coming up next on WBSA 91.1
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:23pm PT
America is all like yea we get to go to war now. I guess it is kind of a jew thing to want to control every thing.

Gonna go ahead and quote that before you change it.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
Why are we acknowledging infantile rantings?
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
I guess it is kind of a jew thing

Dude, I an no Zionist, but you really need to let go of your racial view of the world . . . all the racial divisions and sub-divisions are part of an antiquated world perspective. We are all humans, like it or not.
dirtbag

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:26pm PT
What HT said.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Why are we acknowledging infantile rantings?

I thought everybody agreed all content is good content

Wouldn't be a campfire otherwise right





Keep after it Pinc, I feel like your credibility is really starting to take off on this issue
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
HT there is one little difference with Vincennes case. Unlike on that vessel, he people in Eastern Ukraine are getting killed daily by Ukrainian military. Only today it was about 20 civilians and some unknown number of troops killed. They are killed by the missiles coming from the aircrafts along with artillery shells, and they will down any aircraft within their reach and means. This week at least two Ukrainian SU-25 bombers were shot down, and the AN-26 transport plane mentioned in the news.

It is a war zone, but this is not some central Africa where Kalashnikov gun is the only weapon. The modern warfare is available here, and people are trained to use it. Ukraine is the world capital of the illegal arms trade after all. Pretty much every male in the area has military training and that includes modern air defense systems personal. The military officers are getting retired pretty young - like 40, probably younger, and yet very capable.

Russia sure could stop this conflict, it would take may be a week. But the problem is that to do that they would have to enter their troops, and troops would not stop until reached the Polish border.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
As for the separatists having access to a BUK missile launcher
the Associated Press news agency reported last night that one of its journalists saw a launcher that resembled a Russian BUK system near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier in the day....
Rebels from the separatist Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) overran a Ukrainian army garrison on June 29 and claimed to have captured at least one such weapon. They then posted a Twitter picture of the missile system, which was deleted yesterday as reports of the downed airliner spread.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974861/Malaysian-Airlines-crash-Russian-Mobile-missile-launcher-could-be-responsible.html
This was before the Ukraine transport was shot down. The BUK launcher carries 4 missiles.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:50pm PT
Russia sure could stop this conflict
Putin certainly encouraged it. As you say, it may now be beyond his control.
He is a thug and I'm convinced Russia is covertly helping the separatists.
As if the US doesn't do the same in other places.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
The BUK's warhead is on what is known as a proximity fuse, which is activated by a radar that tells the detonator when it is nearing the target. It usually blows up within metres or tens of metres of the target.

Mr Richardson said he could not be certain from the pictures of the wreckage as to whether it had been caused by a missile, as the pattern of debris would depend partly on the proximity and angle at which the warhead had exploded against the plane.

That is the part I do no see too - the perforation on the plane's larger parts from the missile's shrapnel. When Ukrainians shot Russian TU-154 over the Black See it was clearly seen. The shrapnel is usually 1/2 to 3/4 inch peaces.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
Plane gets shot out of the sky, America is right there straight away pretty much saying. Who was it.
You've got a point there.

, we will go to war
Not on Obama's watch. Just ask McCain, Cheney and a dozen others. They'd have had us in Crimea.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
What's that thing where someone makes stuff up in their head and then they argue with other people about it?

Oh yeah schizophrenia
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:13pm PT
wow.

this is nuke bait.

shut it down.
overwatch

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:20pm PT
If it was a campfire, Pinc would probably be tossed in by now
overwatch

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
decided not to feed the troll
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 18, 2014 - 07:48pm PT
the source or cause of a problem
That puts Putin at the top of the culprit list.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
Here, Tioga, just for you. Maybe watch when you're not so angry...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbZ_3vpZ7-k

I'm proud of my president, I think he stands in stark relief to Putin.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
That puts Putin at the top of the culprit list.
HT you are overestimating the guy. Ukraine has a 20-something years of statehood history, and it has developed into an extremely corrupt state run by reach crooks. The new elected president is just one of them. The whole 'revolution' was nothing but the oligarchs (read gangsters) struggle for power, and it is not over yet. Putin distances himself from that sh!t, as there is no points to collect for him. Without the West reaction - very predictable, everyone understands - he would probably go for military invasion to end that bloodbath, even if that would be not to his or Russia's benefit in short term. But now he is merely watching from the sideline. If Ukrainians will start killing people by hundreds every day like it happens in Syria he will be forced to react regardless of the West's game, but up to certain pain level he is just watching.
overwatch

climber
Jul 18, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Pinky is starting to sound like gilchrist

In a book called Koba the Dread about Stalin, the author talks about when Stalin gave speeches and people would stand up to applaud he would have the first person who stopped executed.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jul 19, 2014 - 12:42am PT
Lets hope Putin never truly goes off the deep end

Too late bro.

God bless Obama . . . the man is at the very least sincere. Tough job when you have a pile of sh#t to walk through on a daily basis.

Putin is worth 60-70 billion . . . never mind the change. Dude can afford to go large. What are we going to do about it???
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 19, 2014 - 07:31am PT
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/how-us-satellites-pinpointed-source-of-missile-that-shot-down-airliner/
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:56am PT
Red Sox vs Yankees...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:39am PT
Good pick Eastman...Damn Yanquis...rj
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:07am PT
I guess TGT was a toddler in 1983. Revisionist history always looks better than reality.

On the heels of the plane explosion, Fox News has rushed to disparage Obama for continuing his planned fundraising trip in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, drawing comparisons to Reagan's initial response to a Korean Air passenger jet downed by the Soviet Union in 1983.

In fact, Reagan initially sent aides to respond to the attack on the airliner, waiting four days before delivering the speech condemning the Soviet Union that is now being lauded by many pundits at Fox News.

Fox's Wallace pushed back against his network peers, noting that "sometimes the best thing presidents can do is nothing, to continue on." He continued, noting that Reagan had to be persuaded to leave his ranch and return to Washington for a speech that came four days after the attack (emphasis added):

WALLACE: I know there's like an immediate reaction, that you want to say he should have run back to Washington and gone back to the Situation Room. I know that a lot of folks at Fox here are saying that. As somebody who covered the White House and saw for six years Ronald Reagan in various situations, sometimes the best thing presidents can do is nothing, to continue on. If he had gone back to Washington and gone to the situation room -- first of all, there's not much he can do, we're not in control of the situation. And it would have dialed it up.

WALLACE: I was covering Ronald Reagan at that time. He was in Santa Barbara at his ranch when that happened, and quite frankly he didn't want to leave. And his advisers realized how terrible this looked, and eventually persuaded him he had to fly back to Washington and had to give this speech to the nation, but it did take him four days.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:33am PT
Whatever the state of the art is now for rocket launch detection
it used to be not so good. As the Sun passes overhead everyday
the reflection from shiny things on Earth is detected and cataloged.

Welders and plasma cutters are hated by launch detection
personnel everywhere.

And sometimes we and the Russians shine lasers at each others rocket launch detection satellites in a tit for tat blinding exercise during actual
rocket test launches to prevent them from gathering spectrum data.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:59am PT
Shocking!

"Russia caught editing Wikipedia entry about downed Malaysian airliner"

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/07/russia-caught-editing-wikipedia-entry-about-downed-malaysian-airliner/
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 19, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
I'm always amused by folks who choose to believe the world is 'such a mess right now'.

1) 'Mess' is nature's way. Anything else would be, well, unnatural.

2) Are we in the middle of WWII? The Great Depression? The Civil War?

'mess' is a very subjective concept.

The world is overpopulated by angry hairless monkeys - our climate provides the barometer for that assessment. That's a mess.

But how we're treating each other these days? Not very messy in comparison to even the not-so-distant past.

Anyway, nothing will compare to the coming robot apocalypse. But hey, that will cure the climate problem, so even that has a silver lining.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 19, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
But how we're treating each other these days? Not very messy in comparison to even the not-so-distant past

Oh, just you wait...
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 19, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
Our evolved traits, as illustrated by our history, does make that a very interesting question. There is little doubt that we will face increasing scarcity - when that scarcity gets to the basic food level - we are certainly pre-programmed for 'not nice'.

Or will voluntarily depopulation (1st world = fewer kids (religious kooks notwithstanding) and rely on tech to fix the rest of what ails us? Will our advanced social structures and the less violent norms they reward help save us from our angry hairless monkey selves?

It's going to have to, because we have already fkd ourselves food production wise for at least the next several centuries, its seems. Our 'advanced social structures', for the most part, reward double downing on this self destruction, so that remedy probably won't stem the tide.

But who cares, really? The robots are coming for us sooner than later, whether or not we're growing our own organic veggies on the parking strip. The Kristians have their End Times, and they may, in fact, be on to something there.

The only part they may be getting wrong is that they, too, will still be solidly part of the herd when the Great Buffalo Hunt begins.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
There will be nothing "done" about this. Be it a mistake or not, its Russia - and the Ukraine.

And what do you think SHOULD be done, Rong?

You are full of outrage, but not full of solutions.

57,000 children, and you have not been able to describe what to do with ONE of them, not ONE---except to execute them.

so what do you do with Russia, big Decider?
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
Sorry for the drift, but I have to ask;

GLillegard is this the Gary Lillegard whose father owned Pack and Piton in Glendora and later Upland in the 70's and 80's?
If so, send me a pm,it would be great to talk to you after all these years.
If not, please disregard and carry on....
Tony Yeary
TY
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 19, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner?

Paul Craig Roberts

Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing
the facts that we do have.

One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.

The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertake–unless there was a plan to frame Russia.

One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washington’s propaganda. The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.

As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

One way to begin is to ask: Why was the missile system where it was? Why risk an expensive missile system by deploying it in a conflict environment in which it is of no use? Incompetence is one answer, and another is that the missile system did have an intended use.

What intended use? News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putin’s presidential airliner and confused the Malaysian airliner with the Russian airliner.

The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putin’s airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: “I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.”

I have not seen an official Russian denial, but according to news reports, the Russian government in response to the Interfax news report said that Putin’s presidential plane no longer flies the Ukraine route since the outbreak of hostilities.

Before we take the denial at face value, we need to be aware that the implication that Ukraine attempted to assassinate the president of Russia implies war, which Russia wants to avoid. It also implies Washington’s complicity as it is highly unlikely that Washington’s puppet in Kiev would risk such a dangerous act without Washington’s backing. The Russian government, being intelligent and rational, would obviously deny reports of an attempted assassination of the Russian president by Washington and its Kiev puppet. Otherwise, Russia has to do something about it, and that means war.

The second explanation is that the extremists who operate outside the official Ukrainian military, hatched a plot to down an airliner in order to cast the blame on Russia. If such a plot occurred, it likely originated with the CIA or some operative arm of Washington and was intended to force the EU to cease resisting Washington’s sanctions against Russia and to break off Europe’s valuable economic relationships with Russia. Washington is frustrated that its sanctions are unilateral, unsupported by its NATO puppets or any other countries in the world except possibly the lap-dog British PM.

There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation. There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit.

Another problem with the video is that whereas we could say that separatists conceivably could confuse an airliner at 33,000 feet with a military attack plane, the Russian military would not. The only conclusion is that by involving the Russian military, the video doubly discredited itself.

The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.

In my previous article http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/17/sanctions-airliners-paul-craig-roberts/ I reported on the BBC news report which I heard and which was obviously primed to place all blame on Russia. The program ended with a BBC correspondent breathlessly reporting that he has just seen the youtube video and that the video is the smoking gun that proved Russia did it. There is no longer any doubt, he said. Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington.

The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner. The entire BBC report aired over National Public Radio was orchestrated for the sole purpose of establishing prior to any evidence that Russia was responsible.

Indeed the entire Western media spoke as one: Russia did it. And the presstitutes are still speaking the same way.

Possibly, this uniform opinion merely reflects the pavlovian training of the Western media to automatically line up with Washington. No media source wants to be subject to criticism for being unamerican or to find itself isolated by majority opinion, which carries the day, and earn black marks for being wrong. As a former journalist for, and contributor to, America’s most important news publications, I know how this works.

On the other hand, if we discount the pavlovian conditioning, the only conclusion is that the entire news cycle pertaining to the downing of the Malaysian airliner is orchestrated in order to lay the blame on Putin.

Romesh Ratnesar, deputy editor of Bloomberg Businessweek, provides convincing evidence for orchestration in his own remarks of July 17. http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-17/the-malaysia-airlines-shootdown-spells-disaster-for-putin?campaign_id=DN071814 Ratnesar’s opinion title is: “The Malaysia Airlines Shootdown Spells Disaster for Putin.” Ratnesar does not mean that Putin is being framed-up. He means that prior to Putin having the Malaysian airliner shot down, “to the vast majority of Americans, Russia’s meddling in Ukraine has largely seemed of peripheral importance to U.S. interests. That calculus has changed. . . . It may take months, even years, but Putin’s recklessness is bound to catch up to him. When it does, the downing of MH 17 may be seen as the beginning of his undoing.”

As a former Wall Street Journal editor, anyone who handed me a piece of sh#t like Ratnesar published would have been fired. Look at the insinuations when there is no evidence to support them. Look at the lie that Washington’s coup is “Russia’s meddling in Ukraine.” What we are witnessing is the total corruption of Western journalism by Washington’s imperial agenda. Journalists have to get on board with the lies or get run over.

Look around for still honest journalists. Who are they? Glenn Greenwald, who is under constant attack by his fellow journalists, all of whom are whores. Who else can you think of? Julian Assange, locked away in the Ecuadoran Embassy in London on Washington’s orders. The British puppet government won’t permit free transit to Assange to take up his asylum in Ecuador. The last country that did this was the Soviet Union, which required its Hungarian puppet to keep Cardinal Mindszenty interred in the US Embassy in Budapest for 15 years from 1956 until 1971. Mindszenty was granted political asylum by the United States, but Hungary, on Soviet orders, would not honor his asylum, just as Washington’s British puppet, on Washington’s orders, will not honor Assange’s asylum.

If we are honest and have the strength to face reality, we will realize that the Soviet Union did not collapse. It simply moved, along with Mao and Pol Pot, to Washington and London.

The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing. However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing. What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him.

I understand Putin’s strategy, which contrasts Russian reasonableness with Washington’s threats, but it is a risky bet. Europe has long been a part of Washington, and there are no Europeans in power who have the vision needed to separate Europe from Washington. Moreover, European leaders are paid large sums of money to serve Washington. One year out of office and Tony Blair was worth $50 million dollars.

After the disasters that Europeans have experienced, it is unlikely that European leaders think of anything other than a comfortable existence for themselves. That existence is best obtained by serving Washington. As the successful extortion of Greece by banks proves, European people are powerless.

Here is the official statement of the Russian Defense Ministry: http://www.globalresearch.ca/mh-17-crash-in-ukraine-official-statement-from-russian-defense-ministry/5392000

Washington’s propaganda assault against Russia is a double tragedy, because it has diverted attention from Israel’s latest atrocity against the Palestinians locked up in the Gaza Ghetto. Israel claims that its air attack and invasion of Gaza is merely Israel’s attempt to find and close the alleged tunnels through which Palestinian terrorists pour into Israel inflicting carnage. Of course there are no tunnels and no terrorist carnage in Israel.

One might think that at least one journalist somewhere in the American media would ask why bombing hospitals and civilian housing closes underground tunnels into Israel. But that is too much to ask of the whores that comprise the US media.

Expect even less from the US Congress. Both the House and Senate have passed resolutions supporting Israel’s slaughter of Palestinians. Two Republicans–the despicable Lindsey Graham and the disappointing Rand Paul–and two democrats–Bob Menendez and Ben Cardin–sponsored the Senate resolution backing Israel’s premeditated murder of Palestinian women and children. The resolution passed the “exceptional and indispensable” people’s Senate unanimously.

As a reward for its policy of genocide, the Obama regime is immediately transferring $429 million of US taxpayers’ money to Israel to pay for the slaughter.

Contrast the US government’s support for Israel’s war crimes with the propaganda onslaught against Russia based on lies. We are living all over again “Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction,” “Assad’s use of chemical weapons,” “Iranian nukes.”

Washington has lied for so long that it can’t do anything else.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Putin distances himself from that sh!t,
sh!t referring to gangsterism.

Putin is in fact a gangster. Pretty much a Fascist gangster. Complete with fabulously wealthy oligarchs, a complacent Church (Putin and wife frequent their Russian Orthodox Church on Sundays); throwing Pussy Riot and Greenpeace demonstrators in prison. Talk about throttling dissent.

The previous President of Ukraine was in league with Putin. His lapdog, if you like.
The new President, whatever his other faults sees Putin as a mortal enemy of Ukraine, and he might be right. (see Crimea for instance)

Shooting down MH17 was no accident. It was however, almost certainly mistaken identity.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
Separatists do have 1 SU-25 and have used it in the battle at least once.
Ukrainian Buk systems deployed to the region right after that case.

And separatists do have competent personal to operate Buk launcher, at least experienced enough to shot down slow-flying AN-26 at 6500m.

Why bother writing something that lengthy without checking the events just couple days back? As they say "I'm a writer, not a reader?"
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
This way or another Putin has nothing to do with this incident. It is the responsibility of Ukrainian government to provide safety to the flight over it's territory. The simple way to provide safety over the territory they do not control is to close the airspace above it. This is exactly what they did with Crimea - they do not have any control over it, they completely closed it, even it is perfectly safe zone.

Donetsk is the zone of a conflict, where Ukraine has no control AND aircraft are shot down daily. To allow the civil air traffic over it is irresponsible at best. Criminal is the better fitted word.

Ukrainian military did degrade greatly since the Soviet times. They has been proving that for some time. But it is not proven that they are at fault here. There is one version that it was not an accident but a provocation and not ground to air missile but fighter jets were used. And yes both separatists and the government have Buk systems in place. Government forces have more systems but separatists have much more incentive (read - hostile targets) to use the only launcher they got.

But to be simple, if you accept that Ukraine is an independent state - then it is at fault here, period. Or you can easily come to the idea that the Ukrainian government is a US poppet - and then the blame goes to who? Mr.Obama?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
CMON people...

The Russians (actual troops) are all over Ukraine..

I remember how they took Crimea. Bunch of Russian regular army without proper uniforms. The whole time Putin was saying.. not us..while his navy blockaded bases, sunk ships in their naval channels and his troops took over....Russian military is on the ground all over Ukraine. Putin is doing a textbook takeover.

The whole Ukrainian situation is 100% Putin. The place was basically stable till Ukraine threw out Putins lapdog.. then Putin waited for the Olympics to end.. and all hell broke loose immediately.

Running a BUK? Guarantee it's not that complicated. F-15s are not that hard to fly and the weapons system is surprisingly easy to use for that matter. A BUK cannot be harder than that. 20 minutes of instruction and some intelligent guy could probably score a hit.

Mistakes? Easy to make .. Ask the USA about that Iranian jetliner our top-notch navy shot down.

Not gunna matter much.. Putin is gonna get all of Ukraine eventually.

Sucks so many decent folks have to die over it though.. R.I.P.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Paul Craig Roberts - wrong yet again. I can't believe folks keep quoting him.

The Ukrainians do know how to use their Buks as do the Russian mercenaries currently operating in eastern Ukraine and who already used them once. It was clearly they who brought down the Malay flight.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:38pm PT
I remember how they took Crimea.
Yes? it took 2 weeks, right? No Ukrainian military personnel dared to resist?

They are obviously NOT doing it to the rest of Ukraine. And if the situation keeps developing the way it is - Putin again will be blamed for NOT taking action.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
Putin doesn't care.. he's taking Ukraine..and no one is going to stop him. At first I thought he might stop with Crimea.. but clearly he's going for it all.

This is just a minor bump along the way to him.

Resistance is futile. Seriously.

Only thing left to do is take advantage of the outrage and and shore up whatever interests we have that we can on the cheap.

It's a pathetic game.

DMT has it right.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 19, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
Doubt that.

Some 95% of Crimea population dreamed of becoming a part of Russia again. Not the same for the rest of Ukraine. Putin will not take this poison pill. If and when the situation will change and 95% of the Ukrainians will dream of been Russians - then yes he may take it.

Which may happen. 30% of working Ukrainian male are in Russia. If economy of Ukraine will keep falling as it is now - it may happen sooner.

It is 45 million people, a third of Russia's population.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
Washington is doing everything possible to promote a war with Russia and China to save the dollar, so we don't have to pay off the $20 trillion national debt......and under the misconception that it is possible to win a nuclear war...

...and disregarding that Russia, China, and India contain contain well over half the world's population, while the USA is a much smaller population percentage.

China is financially stronger than any country in history, and the USA is far deeper in debt than any country in history.

Washington's incentive is that as soon as the dollar collapses from being the world reference currency, the USA loses its privileged position and can no longer print money to fight wars of aggression, and sinks to being a third world country as the BRICS takes over.

Putin is doing everything possible to look the other way and avoid war with the USA...as practically speaking a nuclear exchange between major powers means the end of modern civilization...so far he has successfully sidetracked several USA attempts to spark World War III...and this is just the latest such provocation...

Putin is betting all our futures on the hope that European leaders will see the light and not go along with Washington's provocations.

It is not clear that the clouding turmoil in Europe and Washington's bribery of its leaders will permit them to see what is at risk...
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:09pm PT
lol where do you find this sh!t
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
They only had 2 planes in their fleet, and they both crashed.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 19, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
Let him go, he's on a roll
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:19am PT
This may, indeed, turn out to be the Shot Heard Around the Weird.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:58am PT
http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20/inside-buk-telar-images/
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:43am PT
Paul Craig Roberts - wrong yet again. I can't believe folks keep quoting him.

prolly just couldn't find a david icke rant linking mh17 to the the jewish-reptilian alien conspiracy
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:51am PT

We once had a president that knew how to deal with murderers!

Hahahaha!!! Yeah, he knew how to deal with terrorists. Cut and run!

When he wasn't selling the terrorists missiles himself, of course.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:40am PT
here is the fuel for whats happening out there .

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/2014/07/18/mccain-us-cowardly-ukraine-plane-shot-down/12844427/
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:16am PT
He is still Arizona senator? Shame to the people of Arizona.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:19am PT
Luckily, he is as a lone voice howling in the wilderness that is the US Congress.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 11:30am PT
So, Rong, Mr. American Opinion, I asked you before:

WHAT SHOULD BE DONE about the airliner shootdown?

Or are you just what everyone says you are: a full-on racist that only lives to be opposed to ANYTHING that the President does, and has to reserve your opinion, just to make sure that you never, ever suggest the thing that he does?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Paul Craig Roberts
I've never heard of him. Fortunately.
Reading the long quotation from him, I counted at least 4 known factual errors in the first 8 paragraphs.
Perhaps I've not heard of him because he's so obviously unreliable?

Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing
the facts that we do have.
So what about Russia's propaganda machine and the deleted online separatist videos?
One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.
FALSE
As I noted earlier, Al Jazeera reported a few days earlier they had captured a Buk launcher.
Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia.
True Statement #1
Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.
ABSOLUTE BS. Later he claims they might have thought it was a Ukraine transport, not a low flying attack aircraft. Which is it? However as I noted earlier consider one of our best anti-aircraft ships: USS Vincennes which mistook a Boeing airliner for an F-14. Wikipedia is your friend in case you don't remember 1988 as well as I do.
The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.
questionable. The nearest Ukrainian bases are many miles to the west. Ukraine is a BIG country, not some potty little place.

Wikipedia: The most capable radar, assuming it has a line-of-sight (no terrain between the radar and the target), can track targets (depending on size) as low as 100 feet (30 meters) and a far as 85 miles (140 kilometers). The most capable missile can hit targets as far as 30 miles (50 kilometers) and more than 80,000 feet (25,000 meters) in altitude.
Consider that the separatists control nearly all the real estate within 50 miles of the crash site and it's within a few miles of the Russian border.

Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive....
True statement #2
One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weapon’s use.
Very questionable. Consider the source and the distance to main Ukraine troops.
The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia.
BS again. The Ukrainian military has been modernizing these weapons over the years
Wikipedia: The An-24 and An-26 aircraft, as well as the anti-aircraft artillery systems S-300 and "Buk M1", have been continually modernized, and their service life has been extended.

Ukraine has been cozy with Russia on an off several times in that period. They even have been training with Russian troops.
Wikipedia: The combined training of the Air Force of Ukraine and the Russian Air Force in the practical control of their air defense Stand-by Forces has become more systematic. Moreover, interoperability has been achieved between the forces of Ukraine and the command and control elements of the Air defense of the Russian Federation during the detecting, tracking, and neutralizing of air targets during simulated terrorist attacks.
Wikipedia, Ukrainian Air Force


The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.
"accident" is a strange thing to call a deliberate act even if the target was mistaken.
That would let off a lot of murderers.
The problem with the general’s explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.
True statement #3
What intended use? News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putin’s presidential airliner
Highly unlikely
The planes were 37 minutes apart. If they were looking for Putin's plane they were completely incompetent.
The following paragraphs are just propaganda and distortions.
for example
The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.
the propagandist accusing others of propaganda
Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington
This is a surprise? And so what? It's more telling that the video was pulled down.
The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner.
No one has claimed evidence that "Putin did it". It's easy enough to infer but there is nothing in the video I saw to suggest Russia knew about it in advance.
Indeed the entire Western media spoke as one: Russia did it. And the presstitutes are still speaking the same way.
This nonsense speaks for itself.
I use absurd made up words like Republitards. Precisely because I'm expressing my own absurd and snide opinion. I'm not pretending to be a journalist.
The flaw in Putin’s diplomacy is that Putin’s diplomacy relies on good will and on truth prevailing. However, the West has no good will, and Washington is not interested in truth prevailing but in Washington prevailing. What Putin confronts is not reasonable “partners,” but a propaganda ministry aimed at him.
Is this a deliberate propagandist inversion or is Roberts really this idiotic?

One more totally bogus statement:
Israel claims that its air attack and invasion of Gaza is merely Israel’s attempt to find and close the alleged tunnels through which Palestinian terrorists pour into Israel inflicting carnage. Of course there are no tunnels and no terrorist carnage in Israel.
He's obviously not keeping current. There are videos all over the internet by Hamas showing their troops in tunnels. Yesterday several Hamas and IDF soldiers were killed in battles at the tunnel outlets in Israel.
Certainly the power and casualties are terribly one sided but that doesn't absolve a "journalist" from being factually accurate.

By the way, he left the WSJ in 1980
He is certainly colorful and prone to exaggeration and strange conclusions
.....all over the west. There is no democracy, there are oligarchies, some of these smaller European countries are not even run by their own governments, they are run by Wall Street... There is probably more democracy in China than there is in the west. Revolution is the only answer...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
Walter Duranty reincarnate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
HighTraverse, Ukrainian Buks are deployed in the area. This is a fact none is trying to deny.
Separatist do have 1 SU-25 bomber, and they proudly reported it been used in the battle.

The training of Ukrainian military personnel must be pathetic, given the state of Ukrainian military in general.

If you remember they did shot down Russian passenger plane about 10 years back. It was not intended, true act of incompetence. Not much changed since.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:03pm PT
Nothing says "I think we may have a PR problem" like downing an airliner.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Ukrainian Buks are deployed in the area.
I'd like to see some evidence. I couldn't find any such information when I looked.
So the US Navy was also incompetent when we shot down the Iranian Airbus in 1988 with one of our best anti-aircraft ships. 290 dead.
It's called the Fog of War and these accidents don't necessarily indicate the capabilities of the militaries involved, US, Ukrainian or Russian.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:05pm PT
there aren't any ukrainian buks in the area for the simple reason that the entire area has been under the control of the separatists for weeks.

but we have an AP report and video and photos of Buks in insurgent hands-- they claimed to have captured one from Ukraine several weeks back.

for the few folks who care, the Brits have the best English-language coverage, especially The TIme and The Guardian. The Times is paywall, but TheGuardian isn't.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/three-pro-russia-rebel-leaders-suspects-over-downed-mh17

The Telegraph has alos been better than the US papers or BBC.

The German papers have had some interesting coverage--

http://www.faz.net/
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/todesflug-mh-rekonstruktion-der-grossen-katastrophe-1.2053424

The Dutch are covering this closely for obvious reasons, but my Dutch consists of my bad english and bad German mixed together.

This is obviously an EU issue-- Germans Brits and French are Russia's main western trading partners (not the US), and they're the ones dependent on Russian energy to keep their economies uprght in winter. Looks to me like this will really push folks to re-evaluate relations with Putin. There'll be sanctions, but they'll have a tough time agreeing on what sort.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Had anyone seen any mentioning of this twitter https://twitter.com/spainbuca anywhere in the news?
The account disappeared, but I have it still open in my browser window. It is in Spanish, but google translate does a reasonable job with it.

The guy was writing about 2 Ukrainian fighter jets following HU17 minutes before the crash. He was supposedly working in Kiev, air traffic controller. Probably married to Ukrainian girl and moved in, his twitter existed since 2010.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
As of 'no Ukrainian Buks in the area' - given the 35-55 km range, depending on the missile, they are well in the area.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
they are well in the area.

ah, you're one of those who believes that the various satellite reads on the launch are western agi-prop.

party on, dude.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Did they post the position of the launch reads along with the timestamp? I have not seen that. Buk has a dissent range.

The only difference it makes, BTW - was it an accident (rebel's Buk) or provocation (Ukrainian army Buk or fighter jets). Big difference though. But in no case it takes the blame away from Ukrainian authorities - who bare the whole responsibility for it's airspace safety.

It sounds strange, but up to the moment there is no direct evidence it was Buk hit. It must be pretty straightforward to prove, by the character of the damage.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
C'mon Ron Ukraine did not exist in 1700. Not in 1800 or 1900. BTW in 1900 Poland or Finland did not exist either. The name was invented by Pols who called the occupied part of Russia that way in around 1700.

Holodomor been exposed by Stalin to kill Ukrainians is a Ukrainian nation-building legend. It was done by local communists, whom you could call Russians, but then it was no Ukraine, or if it was Ukraine - they are Ukrainians. Pick one.

In reality, Ukraine never existed before 1989. The rest is propaganda.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
US assets (reconnaissance satellites) recorded the launch flash and the strike on the aircraft.
The US gov't knows exactly where the missile came from.
But of course there will be the paranoid/right wing/"communist"/conspiracy theories. At least Roberts pretended to be logical, he was either very confused or very loose with his facts.
There is now overwhelming valid evidence of what happened. Why and how are different questions.
It is the Russians and Russian separatists who are doing their best to hide and obscure the facts.
The separatists are acting like the undisciplined rabble they really are.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Ron
for once I agree with you!
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
perhaps i just should have used "people of the region"
Given the scale of things communist and Stalin did - communists come first, in the place of Stalin it could of been a few other guys, some like Trotsky are much more fierce - Holodomor was a routine, almost insignificant event.

You probably should call Trotsky Ukrainian BTW. He was "people of the region".
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
The US gov't knows exactly where the missile came from.
And they are not sharing this info with the public because...?

This is a somewhat unusual situation, is not it? Why they are sitting on it - trying to figure the way get the most of it?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:05pm PT
PLEASE!

Putin's GRU run rabble f*#ked up and murdered 295 people.


Give it a rest!
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
Did they post the position of the launch reads along with the timestamp? I have not seen that. Buk has a dissent range.

The only difference it makes, BTW - was it an accident (rebel's Buk) or provocation (Ukrainian army Buk or fighter jets). Big difference though. But in no case it takes the blame away from Ukrainian authorities - who bare the whole responsibility for it's airspace safety.

It sounds strange, but up to the moment there is no direct evidence it was Buk hit. It must be pretty straightforward to prove, by the character of the damage.

the launch detection was presented as part of the US presentation to the UN. Since that region is one of the most intensely surveilled, the one that NATO was originally built to surveil;; and since none of the 11 other signatories to NATO who share command and control and have access to that intel have dissented; i think we can take it as a firm bit of evidence and not another yellowcake moment.

the US has also verified the authenticity of that conversation intercept the Ukrainians posted, along with corroboration of the Buks in separatist control.

i don't think there is much doubt in the international community that it was a mistake by the separatist rebels, and that Russian technical advisors either facilitated or did the launch.

the separatist obstruction of journalists and international observers at the crash scene; and the multiple reports from journalists on-site that parts of the aircraft were disappeared in the first 48 hours; leave little doubt that the russians, too, believe they're on the hook for this.

if putin and his advisors really believed that the ukrainians had shot down the airliner, you'd have seen a jillion russian technical specialists on the crash site, bringing in as many foreign journalists as possible, to show off wreckage with ukrainian fingerprints all over it. it'd be a blank check for putin, and a major lever for reworking NATO.

instead we're getting exactly what we saw after kal. same exact game plan, only this time there's no iron curtain.

your comment that ukraine is culpable makes no sense to me or to anyone else, seemingly, in the international community.

these kind of incidents happen frequently in wars in border zones-- this is just a spectacularly large and tragic one. how europe responds will probably be mostly up to the germans and the french. the cold war is over, and while the us certainly has a strategic interest in a stable ukraine, all of the saber-rattling by folks like mccain seems pretty foolish.

but that's mostly for domestic consumption, because mcain, the neocons, and the realists are all in a battle of wills with the rising isolationsit wing of the gop. this becomes for them another front in that battle.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
Where Stalin starved more people than Hitler killed Jews during WW11
Modern estimates of the Holodomor are about 3 million in Ukraine and several more million in adjacent republics. Soviet records are deliberately sparse and vague where they do exist.

Ukraine never existed before 1989
Ukraine has existed as a national identity since early in the Soviet Union. There is a map of Ukraine in 1918 here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#mediaviewer/File:Ukrainian_State_1918.5-11.png
In 1945, the Ukrainian SSR became one of the founding members of the United Nations organization
True independence was a fiction under the USSR

You can say its borders have been extremely fluid and has not been an independent whole nation until 1989.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
your comment that ukraine is culpable makes no sense to me
Well, that means you are not watching the conflict closely. Allowing civil air traffic over the area where your own military aircrafts are downed on regular basis is madness, IMHO. Or may be 'provocation' is a better suited word?

BTW I do think that likely it was rebel's Buk, but still there are loose ends here and there. Unlikely operated by Russians - there is plenty of capable men in Ukraine. If you remember, during Russia-Georgia war in Ossetia russian surveillance plane was downed by Buk missile - operated by very capable Ukrainians.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
The Russians aren't very nice guys. Who knew?

On top of their other crimes, the Russians are treating the dead like garbage. Looks like he's ready to shoot this one again.

vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
You can say its borders have been extremely fluid...
Much more than that. Borders did not matter at all - it was administrative subdivision. Not even like between CA and NV - more like between Santa Clara and say Alameda county. Or may be like between Inyo and San Bernardino - it must be a border somewhere down there, you know.

The whole subdivision of Russia into the 'Republics' was artificial and existed only to make an illusion of the other European countries freely joining the Great Union when the time comes. Time never came, lucky world.
WBraun

climber
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
the Russians are treating the dead like garbage

Says the forum surfer who's thousands of miles form the incident.

You ever been on a MCI???

You people look at pictures and just plain make up sh!t along with the biased stupid American news media.

Go there for real instead of running your mouth making up sh!t.

You Americans are dumber then ever ......

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 20, 2014 - 05:51pm PT
http://sofrep.com/36195/one-missile-298-lives-lost-profile-buk-9k37-sa-11-gadfly-sam/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
Allowing civil air traffic over the area
So why hadn't Russia closed the air corridor that MH17 would have entered in 2 or 3 minutes?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
Hmm... letmethink.. There is no war in Russia? Nor in Poland?

BTW Aeroflot was also flying above Donetsk. Idiots.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
Hm, Bruce, what was the last time you've been bombed over? What was you reaction after the first shock? Was it 'derilection of duty of care to know exactly what you are shooting out of the sky' of some sort?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Well, of cause nothing, but you are judging the people who fight the brutal war, who's families are getting killed, wives raped. Of cause they had no right to declare their land their own and so are just criminals and have to be treated as such. They are Russians after all, or at least that is what they believe they are. That is a crime by itself, right?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
Well, Bruce, you have to admit it is unlikely the trigger men will be brought to bay and we're
not gonna get much satisfaction out of their puppet master although it will be interesting to
watch Angela feint and jab. So that leaves the pursuit of the only semi-rational culpable
parties, the airlines and ATC entities, as the remaining worthwhile pastime, especially for the
legal eagles.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
Don't worry about the trigger man. He must be in his private hell right now. Not that many people can survive things like that. If he does - he will be judged by others, no doubt.

Blaming him is the easiest solution. If he has killed himself already - problem solved? No and no.

But if all what are you saying is that flying over the war zone is perfectly fine and everyone who shuts down an aircraft without it's country's government permission is a mere criminal - well, I guess you are right, but you are on your own here. Ron's position comes from somewhat different angle, which my guess you are completely oblivious of.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
This particular weapon system was provided by the Ukrainian military forces who did not evacuate, not to mention protect, the air defense base in Avdiivka (check the map).

That implies - they have meant to make separatists to shut down some passenger jet that Ukrainian authorities will conveniently direct to fly over the known launcher location? I see you logic here.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Well, what you did not like about your logic? Follow the money you said - and I did. Was it anything new to you in it?

The fantasy stories are booming, that is true. Lots of people with sick imagination and free internet. The one with all dead people is not the wildest I've seen.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:08pm PT
Well, we seeing the different evidence then. Russia has no gain in that play, Ukraine sure does have quite a bit. There is a conflict that they are obviously cannot handle, and they were calling for Big Brother to come and help for some time now.

Also a sh!tload of local Ukrainian politics there as well, and those people have a long track record of completely screwed up moral values. Water is as muddy as it gets, fishing time.

With that much politics involved I doubt we will ever know the whole truth. There are two simple rules here, though. Never believe what Ukraine said, and never believe what Russia said. Unless they said something they completely did not mean to say.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
United States Assessment of the Downing of Flight MH17 and its Aftermath
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html

Based on some serious YouTube evidence.. What is it? Another political appointment?

"At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11."

And the launch position was - ?? Is there a serious reason not to make this information public??
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
He got an alibi for himself, a smarta$$. He was on the plane, flying back from Brasil.

Bu seriously - why they are hiding the facts? 'Trust us people we know we are doing the right thing' does not work, not after Snowden.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 20, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
This particular weapon system was provided by the Ukrainian military forces who did not evacuate, not to mention protect, the air defense base in Avdiivka (check the map).

Just so we are clear, if I throw your ass down on the ground and take your possessions, you would describe that as "providing them" to me.

Interesting way for Russians to think.

And then using your possessions to bludgeon someone else to death.....YOU are the criminal.

At least we understand.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 12:01am PT
Always turn your other chick, Ken, always do. None will accuse you of anything and you will always be guilty of nothing. Just make sure you got no family or friends - they may not understand that this is the right way.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 07:52am PT
Always turn your other chick, Ken, always do. None will accuse you of anything and you will always be guilty of nothing. Just make sure you got no family or friends - they may not understand that this is the right way.

Do you have a comprehension problem? Is that the problem with Russians?

Turn the chick? Russians? When you are not slaughtering your own political opposition by the millions, let me just remind you:
Afghanistan.
Chechnya.

When are the just Russians going to hold a poll in Chechnya to see if the people want to remain part of Russia, like they advocated so strongly in Crimea?
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Hmmm...did the US poll the citizens of Hawaii before they annexed it?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:28am PT
Interesting development.

Russian Defense Ministry released it's information on the MH17. They reported detecting 2 Ukrainian SU-25 planes in close proximity to Boeing, something Ukraine denied all along. One was as close as 3km at some point. They are saying the second one was flying low and it took them a while to figure it out. This matches the tweets of Spanish dude working in Kiev Air Control, the one that I've posted early and the account went dead shortly after.
SU-25 is a bomber, but it's standard equipment includes 2 air-to-air R-60 missiles, short range - 7-10 km, 3-3.5 kg warhead, IR guidance.

On top of that, they presented the satellite imagery of the positions of Ukrainian Buk launchers, 3 batteries total in the area, one launcher was deployed 8km south of the crash site, just for that day only. Something that Ukrainians were denying all along as well.

They also reported a spike of radar activity of Ukrainian Buk systems that day.

And they have requested US data on detected Buk launch position.

That Ukrainian Buk launcher info may explain why the launch position was not released yet by US authorities. Russians might know where exactly the separatist's launcher was, but US may not.

The most interesting part so far is that all that info (released some-3-4 hours ago) is completely ignored by the Western media - at least by CNN and BBC, I have not checked others. All you see there is 'rebels tempting with evidence, they are hiding something' theme started yesterday.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 21, 2014 - 10:12am PT
Will not be surprised to see this news headline sometime soon
"Aeroflot 777 disappears over Atlantic! Dutch naval ship in area
says they saw nothing!"
dirtbag

climber
Jul 21, 2014 - 10:22am PT
Thanks again for the laughs Tioga.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Big F-ing Game.. I hate politicians.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2014 - 10:57am PT
Russian Defense Ministry released it's information on the MH17

BwaHaHaHaHa! It's a gud thing I know for a fact that the Easter Bunny rools!
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 11:24am PT
Oh, Reillly - are you working for one of those big media outlets? That is your employer official position then?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 21, 2014 - 11:29am PT
Ты еше спрашиваешь?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
Interestingly, US 'free' media keeps ignoring the Russian allegations. _-Ukrainian president just said the SU-25-s had nothing to do with NH17 crash - acknowledging this way that he lied before about them not been there. Baby step, but the step in the right direction.- Sorry - I was wrong here, he did not acknowledge anything

And US by staying quiet confirms not only Russian's theory of MH17 been deliberately shot down by the Ukrainian military, but consequently it's own involvement. Could they say at least something beyond referring to some doctored youtube videos and social media posts? All this "we know Russia is guilty an has to be punished' starts sounding a bit like Bush and Iraq WMD story.

All that sucks. Could we get at least some professional help in the State Department?
Rock Monkey

Mountain climber
Thousand Oaks, California
Jul 21, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
Rocky vs. Drago rematch, eh?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 03:16pm PT
CNN video ^^ so that is the media reaction I was waiting for - prepare the audience to discard anything that Russians saying, it is all conspiracy theories? Muddy the water?

The Russian intelligence presented the facts they see it, and now Obama is on a hard spot. It is obvious - I hope at least by now it is obvious to the people in the administration - that Russians saved some for the later, and none knows what it is. All the Ukrainian military equipment is Russian-made, and that includes the communication systems. Who knows what they have recorded.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 21, 2014 - 05:32pm PT
Fingerprints allover - that is exactly what I'm asking for. US intelligence said they got fingerprints, me - and now apparently Russians - what to see them, so matching can be done. So far, all the proof US presented is social media files, which is beyond laughable.

Now there is a direct request to give away the coordinates of the rocket launch - this should tell us who done it, right? And all we got back is 'we know the truth'. Well, if you know the truth but do not want to share - means you do not like what you know, right?

It is all that simple - the launch position and time , and explosion position and time. The sat was, as Russians said 'accidentally or not' right above the area at the launch time. US working hard on placing blame on Russia - stop BS, prove it.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 21, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
Radio hosts. Yup. Figured.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 21, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
Four days later Ron, wow.

I bet Raegan acted instantly In 88, or how about 82?

First you bitch about taking four days, then you turn around and say we shouldn't get
our nose in these things.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
I kinda liked Putin a few years ago!
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:27pm PT
For the most part I liked your post Ron.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 21, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
Anyone on a Russian Aeroflot jet is a frickn potential suicide
until the score gets evened. The whole planet is a
no fly zone for Vlad's carrier right now. Just need to pick the
right one. Eenie meenie miney mo.....Hey MO!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 21, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/

Guilt By Insinuation

How American propaganda works.

by Paul Craig Roberts

Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?

The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center.

The Russian Defense Ministry pointed out that at the moment of destruction of MH-17 an American satellite was flying over the area. The Russian government urges Washington to make available the photos and data captured by the satellite.

President Putin has repeatedly stressed that the investigation of MH-17 requires “a fully representative group of experts to be working at the site under the guidance of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).” Putin’s call for an independent expert examination by ICAO does not sound like a person with anything to hide.

Turning to Washington Putin stated: “In the meantime, no one [not even the “exceptional nation”] has the right to use this tragedy to achieve their narrowly selfish political goals.”

Putin reminded Washington: “We repeatedly called upon all conflicting sides to stop the bloodshed immediately and to sit down at the negotiating table. I can say with confidence that if military operations were not resumed [by Kiev] on June 28 in eastern Ukraine, this tragedy wouldn’t have happened.”

What is the American response?

Lies and insinuations.

Yesterday (July 20) the US Secretary of State, John Kerry confirmed that pro-Russian separatists were involved in the downing of the Malaysian airliner and said that it was “pretty clear” that Russia was involved. Here are Kerry’s words: “It’s pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence, that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point and time, so it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.”

Kerry’s statement is just another of the endless lies told by US secretaries of state in the 21st century. Who can forget Colin Powell’s package of lies delivered to the UN about Saddam Hussein’s “weapons of mass destruction” or Kerry’s lie repeated endlessly that Assad “used chemical weapons against his own people” or the endless lies about “Iranian nukes”?

Remember that Kerry on a number of occasions stated that the US had proof that Assad crossed the “red line” by using chemical weapons. However, Kerry was never able to back up his statements with evidence. The US had no evidence to give the British prime minister whose effort to have Parliament approve Britain’s participation with Washington in a military attack on Syria was voted down. Parliament told the prime minister, “no evidence, no war.”

Again here is Kerry declaring “confidence” in statements that are directly contradicted by the Russian satellite photos and endless eye witnesses on the ground.

Why doesn’t Washington release its photos from its satellite?

The answer is for the same reason that Washington will not release all the videos it confiscated and that it claims prove that a hijacked 9/11 airliner hit the Pentagon. The videos do not support Washington’s claim, and the US satellite photos do not support Kerry’s claim.

The UN weapons inspectors on the ground in Iraq reported that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction. However, the fact did not support Washington’s propaganda and was ignored. Washington started a highly destructive war based on nothing but Washington’s intentional lie.

The International Atomic Energy Commission’s inspectors on the ground in Iran and all 16 US intelligence agencies reported that Iran had no nuclear weapons program. However, the fact was inconsistent with Washington’s agenda and was ignored by both the US government and the presstitute media.

We are witnessing the same thing right now with the assertions in the absence of evidence that Russia is responsible for the downing of the Malaysian airliner.

Not every member of the US government is as reckless as Kerry and John McCain. In place of direct lies, many US officials use insinuations.

US Senator Diane Feinstein is the perfect example. Interviewed on the presstitute TV station CNN, Feinstein said: “The issue is where is Putin? I would say, ‘Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say, if this is a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.’”

Putin has been talking to the world nonstop calling for an expert non-politicized investigation, and Feinstein is asking Putin why he is hiding behind silence. We know you did it, Feinstein insinuates, so just tell us whether you meant to or whether it was an accident.

The way the entire Western news cycle was orchestrated with blame instantly being placed on Russia long in advance of real information suggests that the downing of the airliner was a Washington operation. It is, of course, possible that the well-trained presstitute media needed no orchestration from Washington in order to lay the blame on Russia. On the other hand, some of the news performances seem too scripted not to have been prepared in advance.

We also have the advanced preparation of the youtube video that purports to show a Russian general and Ukrainian separatists discussing having mistakenly downed a civilian airliner. As I pointed out earlier, this video is twice damned. It was ready in advance and by implicating the Russian military, it overlooked that the Russian military can tell the difference between a civilian airliner and a military airplane. The existence of the video itself implies that there was a plot to down the airliner and blame Russia.

I have seen reports that the Russian anti-aircraft missile system, as a safety device, is capable of contacting aircraft transponders in order to verify the type of aircraft. If the reports are correct and if the transponders from MH-17 are found, they might record the contact.

I have seen reports that Ukrainian air control changed the route of MH-17 and directed it to fly over the conflict area. The transponders should also indicate whether this is correct. If so, there clearly is at least circumstantial evidence that this was an intentional act on the part of Kiev, an act which would have required Washington’s blessing.

There are other reports that there is a divergence between the Ukrainian military and the unofficial militias formed by the right-wing Ukrainian extremists who apparently were the first to attack the separatists. It is possible that Washington used the extremists to plot the airliner’s destruction in order to blame Russia and use the accusations to pressure the EU to go along with Washington’s unilateral sanctions against Russia. We do know that Washington is desperate to break up the growing economic and political ties between Russia and Europe.

If it was a plot to down an airliner, any safety device on the missile system could have been turned off so as to give no warning or leave any telltale sign. That could be the reason a Ukrainian fighter was sent to inspect the airliner. Possibly the real target was Putin’s airliner and incompetence in implementing the plot resulted in the destruction of a civilian airliner.

As there are a number of possible explanations, let’s keep open minds and resist Washington’s propaganda until facts and evidence are in. In the very least Washington is guilty of using the incident to blame Russia in advance of the evidence. All Washington has shown us so far are accusations and insinuations. If that is all Washington continues to show us, we will know where the blame resides.

In the meantime, remember the story of the boy who cried “wolf!” He lied so many times that when the wolf did come, no one believed him. Will this be Washington’s ultimate fate?

Instead of declaring war on Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, and Syria, why did Washington hide behind lies? If Washington wants war with Iran, Russia, and China, why not simply declare war? The reason that the US Constitution requires war to begin with a declaration of war by Congress is to prevent the executive branch from orchestrating wars in order to further hidden agendas. By abdicating its constitutional responsibility, the US Congress is complicit in the executive branch’s war crimes. By approving Israel’s premeditated murder of Palestinians, the US government is complicit in Israel’s war crimes.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 21, 2014 - 11:28pm PT
What happened to my post responding to Ron?

It was before Cocchrane posted his cut and paste and now is gone.
I've never deleted a post.
Wierd.


Sorry Ron, I read your post as a jab at Obama out of habit.
I gave a comparison as a measure.

I'd be the first to agree that we need to quit being the playground monotor around the world. Sadly most of the war mongers on capital hill want to flex our might at every little skirmish.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:09am PT
The USA has done much the same as Russia around the world, in places like Afghanistan for instance

Yup.
And all this talk about making Russia "pay" etc. from idiots like John McNobrain is hypocritical at best. More like insane.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:55am PT
Tioga, Malaysian was already three sheets to the wind financially before
the first one disappeared. It has been kept afloat, so to speak, only because
it is a guvmint operation.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:24am PT
BBC Russia has published some info from Russian military briefing on MN17:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/07/140716_russia_boeing_mh17_findings.shtml - limited though, may be a quarter of facts what were presented.

And this one on US military briefing today where Mat Lee (sp?) from AP was trying to get an answer to the simple question - you saying Russians are wrong were are your proofs? The only answer he got - we do use other that social media sources. http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/07/140722_mh17_us_russia_dispute.shtml

Here they talk about Ukrainian SU-25 seen near Boeing, saying that locals did see the plane Russians talk about. Trying to disproof the point that Rissoan defense ministry did not make - that SU-25 is not suited to shut down target at 10000m. Wrong, BTW. It is not a fighter, but not toothless against fighters .http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/07/140716_russia_boeing_mh17_findings.shtml

None of the articles exist in normal version, or they are hidden well. C'mon, "the best news organisation in the world"!

BTW the black boxes were handed over to Malayans yesterday, news reaching Western media today only. Malaysians could not get to the crash sight yesterday - the train station where they were waiting was shelled by Ukrainian military, in continuing fighting. The boxes were handed over in Donetsk instead. I think Malayans finally got to the crash site today.

Russians allegations are pretty serious. They never saying that but it easily concludes to no accident - Boeing was shut down deliberately by the Ukraine military. There is more than one reason why would they do that.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:56am PT
So let the Western European intelligence community find the smoking gun.
(presumably meant sarcastically by the OP)

US and NATO have the "technical assets" to monitor Ukraine airspace. Since there's a war going on adjacent to NATO countries, you can bet we're doing it.
Meaning the military spy satellites, intercepted phone and internet communications, etc etc.
The NATO air defense system knows a great deal about what goes on in the airspace behind the old Iron Curtain including Ukraine. Satellites, AWACS, radar, "signals intelligence". Likewise for Russia looking westward and eastward (China). This is What We and Russia Do. All day every day and night. We and they are very good at it.
Russia pretending we did it?
That's about as valid as Putin calling himself a democrat.

I have no doubt, none, zero that we know the technical details about what happened. Just ask Snowden.
The psychology, the human chain of decision and events are certainly more opaque. It's likely the chain of command is very shaky from the separatist leadership down to the units on the ground. It's entirely likely the "Leader" in Donetsk had no idea in advance. Or maybe he did. This we may never know.
Did Putin know in advance? I seriously doubt it. Putin is a nasty, untrustworthy SOB, manipulator and near dictator. An intelligent ex KGB Colonel with operational responsibilities. I don't think he's stupid enough to plan or approve this disaster.
This is a foreign policy nightmare for Russia.
I don't believe there was any intention to shoot down a civilian plane. It was an operational cock-up.

Ask yourself a fundamental question: given that Poroshenko, Obama, Putin and Malaysian Airlines are rational (which doesn't de-facto mean honest or trustworthy). What could ANY of them benefit from this? The separatist leader? Who knows about his rationality?
Collusion between US and Ukraine to do this?
No friggen way. Eventually the truth will out. Nobody intentionally wanted this disaster.

Were Russian "trainers" involved? Did Russia purposely deliver the Buks to the separatists? Very possibly. But not with the intent to shoot a civilian airliner with 290 people out of the sky.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:11am PT
Y'all are over-thinking this unless, of course, you subscribe to some conspiracy
help line. Of course the Russian military supplied the Buks. But those
'freedom fighters' are drunken Russian nationalists, on a good day. Proof
of their stupidity and incompetence is the shoot-down. They couldn't tell
a SU-25 or an AN-26 from a B-777? Right.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:19am PT
Russia pretending we did it?
Why would you include Ukraine in the 'we'? We are hiding the facts, as you hopefully can see. Does not mean direct involvement.

Reilly you are a bit out of touch here. Watching Ukrainian TV or something?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:23am PT
Я не вижу ничего ТВ, кроме как спорт. ;-))
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:33am PT
Good choice Reilly))

given that Poroshenko, .. rational
Well that was a stretch of cause, but who said it was him? Ukraine is pretty chaotic right now, and he could easily been a target. The only game he would have then - deny everything blame Russia. Precisely what he is doing right now.

There are few personas in high Ukrainian politics who are well capable of a plot like that, and have a proven record. The previous president was overthrown by executing 100 people right at the central square of Kiev and placing blame on the state officials, president fled the country. It was a success, so why not again?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:34am PT
Ron last evening:
The only thing that has changed is the USA wanting to nose into every civil war in the world. We need to curb that trend asap
Again we agree!
(twice in three days? that's almost frightening)

Looks to me as if Obama is holding a steady course to keep us out of as much of other nations' chaos as possible.
Much to the annoyance of the Republitard (I do mean those who are demonstrably STUPID) politicians and the quacking neo-con heads.
Most notably McCain who should bloody well know better by now.
Last week McCain said:
So first, give the Ukrainians weapons to defend themselves and regain their territory. Second of all, move some of our troops into areas that are being threatened by Vladimir Putin, other countries like the Baltics and others. Move missile defense into the places where we got out of, like the Czech Republic and Poland and other places. And impose the harshest possible sanctions on Vladimir Putin and Russia. That's just for openers.
Has he ever heard of NATO? Does he even know that Ukraine borders Hungary, Romania, Czech Republic and Poland, all members of NATO?
Of all Ukraine's neighbors, only Belarus and Russia are not NATO members.
We deployed an F-16 squadron to Poland in response to Crimea. 6 more US f-16s were deployed from England to Lithuania. All of this in March.
He of all people knows that even on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier, things can go Very Very Wrong and that War Is Hell, especially from inside a Hanoi prison. I used to have some respect for the guy (McCain-Feingold, supporting gun control). Choosing Palin for VP cured me.

Then Lindsey Graham who can't find his own arse with two hands.
Cheney who's got more than enough blood on his hands to go around.
Wolfowitz the "brain" behind the Iraq war.
Bill Kristol, the Iraq war head cheerleader.
Shrub has been notably quiet. Surprisingly he might be smarter than the others. He might have learned his lesson. Being President means tough decisions as he found out.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:40am PT
It was a success, so why not again?
Reasonable points except
How would this disaster help the Ukraine political opposition?
The obvious (to anybody with a brain) outcome is just what has happened. Greater support for the Ukraine government vs the separatists. Not likely to increase instability in western Ukraine.
I really don't think Putin wanted this but he'll certainly lie, obfuscate, create and destroy evidence as much as he can to implicate Ukraine.

shows irrefutable proof that Russia did it
I wouldn't call it irrefutable proof that they did it or even that they deliberately enabled shooting down a civilian aircraft.
It's highly likely Russia delivered the Buks and possible they trained the separatists or even had advisors on site. It's likely they thought it was another military transport like the one they had shot down about a week earlier.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 10:47am PT
HT, don't overlook the point that continued instability is in Putin's favor
as it keeps the Ukraine weak especially as long as the limp-wristed Euros
prevaricate meaningful measures. Merkel really is a hypocrite because up to
300,000 German jobs depend on Russian trade. That said the sanctions already
in place have to be causing some discomfiture to Putin, albeit not directly,
inasmuch as some of his oligarch friends are prolly bitching that the sanctions
are hurting them.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Reilly
agreed
but
Merkel really is a hypocrite because up to
300,000 German jobs depend on Russian trade.
Germany, in fact all of Europe (except UK, Norway and Sweden), is in a bind since they get a very large amount of their gas in pipelines from Russia through Ukraine. They also get about 30% of their enriched uranium for domestic power production from Russia.
Neither of these critical energy sources can be quickly replaced. European winter starts in about 3 months.
What about Russia? They're highly dependent on the gas and uranium revenues. It's the majority of their foreign exchange.

Merkel and Putin are playing a game of chicken which neither can really afford to lose. Why Merkel? Because Germany is the largest western European economy.
Obama holds the trump cards because about the only thing we totally rely on Russia for is getting us to and from the Space Station.

You can bet Putin's Oligarch buddies are not happy about events since the annexation of Crimea. Doesn't mean they're not on his side. There's always the implicit thread of a microscopic Polonium pellet in your foot. Eastern Europe is still a tough neighborhood.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:15am PT
photo here of damage inflicted by surface-to-air missile.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/21/photographs-emerge-of-shrapnel-damage-on-malaysia-airlines-flight-17/?hpid=z1

but i doubt this will kill the kremlinbot "ukrainianfighterjetsshotitdown" talk.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:20am PT
OMG
so much for my vain hope that the passengers died quickly.
That is too gruesome to contemplate for more than a minute.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:37am PT
How would this disaster help the Ukraine political opposition?
For the one, this lady is not in opposition:
But she is not in power either, and extremely ambitious. She by the way benefited the most from overthrowing the previous president - it got her out of jail.

There are a few more like her.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:40am PT
this thread just dropped from 334 to 319 posts.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:43am PT
Hope this helps
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
"ukrainianfighterjetsshotitdown"
I doubt the damage inflicted to Boeing can be done with R-60s. It bares 3 kg warhead - will it be enough to blow the plane body in peaces? And it has IR-guidence - it should hit the engine, not the fuselage. Boeing most likely will not even loose the wing with such hit and will keep flying, at least for some time.

My current thinking is SU-25 were on reconnaissance/backup mission. If Ukrainian officers were told that the target was the Punin's plane, they would try to verify that before launching SAM. According to Russian surveillance data SU-25 never been closer that 3km to Boeing. From that far the colors would match close enough. Putin does not fly 777, but how those guys would know. They may have been given fake pictures

It is easy to call Russians reports false. But you cannot call false the obvious - complete silence in the Western media about them in the last 24 hours. This by itself is a very telling and disturbing fact. I was naive to think that at least some media is at least somewhat independent.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
I doubt the damage inflicted to Boeing can be done with R-60s. It bares 3 kg warhead

You're not being serious, are you?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
You think it can be done with R-60? I've never been playing with explosives myself. 3kg of explosives and shrapnel- is it a lot for 777? That thing is huge and built crazy strong. Also R-60 warhead should have not the small chips for the shrapnel but some sort of sticks or rods, supposedly more efficient.

Buk missile carries 70kg warhead, the old mod that Ukrainians have has something like bearing balls for shrapnel, newer mod also has those stick things.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
It depends where it hits it but I can't think of too many places that would
not cause catastrophic failure. Anywhere in the hull is going to cause
explosive decompression. Almost any flight surface other than the very wing
tips would also be catastrophic. The only hope would be that it goes through
the meaty part of the wing and only blows a ginormous hole in it without
taking an engine off. Not very good odds.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
It is easy to call Russians reports false. But you cannot call false the obvious - complete silence in the Western media about them in the last 24 hours. This by itself is a very telling and disturbing fact.

it is especially easy when you have russian state media offering up the possibility that the airplane had been filled with corpses before takeoff as part of an anti-russian conspiracy.

the russian presser on ukrainian fighter jets was widely reported in us, british and german outlets-- i can't vouch for the dutch or french because i haven't been following them closely.

there isn't any "silence." it's just that a ukrainian jetstrike doesn't align with any of the other widely available evidence, most especially russian and russian separatist stonewalling of the crash scene as compared with the eagerness of the ukrainians to have international observers on site.

moreover, anyone actually following this story understands that there were pretty frantic backroom negotiations going on with the kremlin up to the vote on the un resolution yesterday.
russia was clearly given some kind of assurance about the extent of eu sanctions in return for promising to make the separatists hand over the bodies and recorders and to not veto the un resolution.

vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Not 100% sure but R-60 should be strictly IR, no RF guidance. Those things fly directly into the engine.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
I was only addressing the likely damage and as I noted it wouldn't matter
much what the guidance was. Besides, even if it initially did less damage
the aerodynamic forces at Mach .83 will tear a plane apart in seconds. A
famous case occurred over Canada where the flight director went goofy and
the freighter's pilots didn't catch it as it happened quite slowly but it
eventually put them into a high speed spiral which caused supersonic speeds
over the outer portions of the wings. That was enough to peel wing panels
right off! The pilots did a commendable job of regaining control but I don't
think that 747 was ever declared airworthy again.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
there isn't any "silence
Any links?

Finding controversy in what Russians did not say is actually called disinformation.

Russians did not say SU-25 shot down 777, they saying it was in the close proximity and Ukrainian lied about it. Two of SU-25, actually. And also they said Ukrainian Buk launcher was installed right in the incident area, in about the same proximity as assumed rebel's launcher position, just before the incident, and removed immediately after, and Ukrainians lied about it. On top. they call most of Ukrainian social media kind of evidence fabricated - that you can see by yourself, form your own opinion. No court would even consider any of it.

I kinda think that Russians probably inspected the detected location of the Ukrainian launcher, and have the evidence in the bug. Rocket launch should burn the ground aroundt, you have to bulldoze it over to hide it, and still traces can be detected. The missile weights about 1000 pounds, you cannot just wipe the fingerprints.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
Reilly - so you think if you blow a hole in the fuselage at that speed, even at 10000 m - the whole plane disintegrates into pieces? That is what happened?

I remember pictures of 777 cart-weeling on SFO tarmac. That thing seems invincible.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
hey call most of Ukrainian social media kind of evidence fabricated

here, for instance, we now have guardian reporters lining up eyetwinesses (in addition to the AP reporter) who say they and other saw the missle launcher in town just as depicted in the video and photos.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/ukraine-sightings-missile-launcher-mh17

loook, if you want to do the kremlinbot thing, you need to keep up. i understand that many north americans don't know how to identify, find, and then read the major european editorial reportage sites. so much earlier in this thread, i posted links to the brit and german papers with the best coverage-- and from across the political spectrum --each one of those papers included something on the russian presser.

if you were actually following the story, you'd have seen that coverage. i thought you were russian? do you really not understand which are the major, most reliable euro news investigators?

my guess is, that you've bunkerized yourself and are reading only conspiracy sites and maybe russian state media.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
I cannot read German, and I'm looking at English-speaking coverage and some Russian coverage. I do not have to believe much to what Russian media said, but evidence is evidence. When I see images of flight recorders been handed over to Malaysians and at the same time - reports that rebels refusing to give them away - well, they said from the beginning that they will not handle the evidence over to Ukrainians because they do not trust them, but, at the time of publication they were already handed over, period. There are journalist on the ground, the were invited I'd believe. Some NPR dude sits in Donetsk right now.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
The guardian article - well, only slightly accurate, and mostly quoting rumors. You could write one like that yourself if you just got the assignment and spend half an hour on the internet researching the subject. Pretty worthless at that day and time as an information source.

And you still missing the point. It was one of the launchers present in the area at that moment. It was about 20 more, and actually demonstrating high level of RF activity - why? According to Ukrainians there is no flying hostile targets in the area.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2014 - 02:53pm PT
When I see images of flight recorders been handed over to Malaysians and at the same time - reports that rebels refusing to give them away

don't know what yr talking about here-- the times and guardian both covered that in real time.

we're all guessing at the behind-the-scenes negotiation, of course. but it isn't coincidence that the handover basically coincided with the vote on the un resolution.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 22, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
The guardian article - well, only slightly accurate, and mostly quoting rumors. You could write one like that yourself if you just got the assignment and spend half an hour on the internet researching the subject

what are you talking about? "only slightly accurate"-- on what? write it myself? the whole point is that their reporters on the ground interviewed locals who corroborated the video and still photos. that's how you do it for news journalism in real time. do i have great faith in eyewitness accounts? no. but eyewitness accounts that corroborate a variety of still photos and at least one video, yes, that's pretty helpful.

or are you saying that the guardian is lying, that they don't have reporters there, the reporters didn't interview locals?



vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
Guardian is withholding the information. Close enough to lying.

There are on-the ground eyewitness reports of SU-25 in the air. I'm sure Guardian journalist heard them. Any pubs yet? Or it is not in the assignment?

Rebels ANNOUNCED that they captured 1 Buk launcher 2 weeks ago. They ANNOUNCED that they used it to shut down Ukrainian army AN-26 on Monday LAST week. Why are you calling discovering that rebels indeed do have it, a week later - journalism?
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
Bruce, My thinking is a bit lumpy, so it is easy to misread. What I meant to say, exactly, that Russians did not say SU-25 were used to shut down the plane. They described, in detail, Ukrainian air defense activity in the area at the time of the crash, which BTW according to Ukrainians did not happen.They were actually pointing at Ukrainian Buk deployed into Torez area, 8 km south of the crash site - new information at least to me, may be Guardian had it before? Sorry I missed then.
And they pointed at 2 SU-25-s. They said that one of SU-25 s approached 777 to the distance of 3-5km right before the crash, minutes if I remember. And they said among other things, that after the plane went down SU-25 was making circles around the crash site surveying it, for 4 minutes.

They presented sat images of Ukrainian Buks locations - I understand, this is boring technical detail for the public to see so thee is no reason to mention, nor publish the images.

They also described the air to air capabilities of SU-25 - which is a bomber, not a fighter. 2 R-60, 7km operational celling, can reach 10000m for a short time. It is a capable aircraft. Never approached 777 closer than 3 km, the reach of R-60 is 10km, 5 km guaranteed interception. They never said it was the weapon used, but it is definitely capable of shutting down 777 - according to Reilly anyways, and 2 of them flew into the area in question minutes before the incident.

Then when someone wrights that Russians said that SU-25 was used to shut down the 777 and that is not true - is mudding the waters, or - in plain wards, lying. Russians specifically did not put out any conclusions, only presented the intel. They never mentioned rebels Buk, not denied it existence,

Looks like (that is me saying, not the Russians, based on the same info which was repeated by Guardian) rebel's Buk was somewhere in Snezhnoe - about the same distance from the crash site as Ukrainian deployed Buk was at that moment. BTW if you believe that you need lots of training to operate Buk - which is BS BTW, well, here is a well-trained professional crew, right were you were looking for it. Not some drunk Russians
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
"viani, Have you considered for a moment that you may be biased in alegiance toward Russia?"

x2!
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Why me is important? I'm trying to figure the facts in that mess. I know people generally dislike the truth. So it is OK to dislike me for that.

I did watch the war at Ukraine East for some time, so my starting point is different that yours I guess, and I see many obvious fallbacks of US media better that you do. Propaganda I guess them the fallbacks are called. I dislike been lied to. Do not care much about Europe media - this is not were I live.

One fact I've learned in life BTW is that one easy way to get away with a theft is to cry "Thieves!!" louder that others. See anything like that around MH17?

BTW are you guys biased against Russia? Just asking.

WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
vlani has good brain.

Those that argue against him are stoopid with no brain at all ......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
Vlani, I'm sure you're a good person too. But I just can't help thinking
of that quote of Turgenev:

"Nobody respects the truth as much as a Russian because they are the
greatest liars in the world."

Don't shoot the messenger, okay? ;-)

(BTW, I have books on disinformation)
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
Those things fly directly into the engine.

Not necessarily. The R-60 (AA-8)is an all aspect missile. Beause of the closing velocity (1-3 mach depending on aspect), the missile is proximity fused, so even if the missile doesn't directly impact the aircraft it still causes big time fragmentation damage.

Of course none of that matters, since ELINT is showing it as a Buk (SA-11) launch. Which is why the rebels are currently cutting those pieces off the aircraft that corroborate that evidence.


Or else it was aliens
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
What did Turgenev new about the rest of the world?

The biggest liars are politicians, regardless of nationality.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
I think we can all agree on that
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Koneshno, but politicians as a professional class didn't really exist
when he was writing, pravilno?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 22, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Assuming Ukraine was responsible.
Wouldn't the separatists and Russia want full investigation and disclosure right away?
Why would the separatists go to so much trouble interfering with the independent airline safety officials at the site?
Why would they interfere once they let the officials in?
Why didn't they turn over the flight recorders immediately?
And why did they apparently not invite the Russians in to help?

The very strong implication is they didn't want the facts known before they could alter them by moving/destroying/changing evidence.
If they had nothing to hide, one would expect them to welcome all the non-Ukrainian help they could get.
Looks like they knew they had really f**ed up, panicked and entered news damage control.
Evidence? The YouTube vids that were taken down.
US missile tracking imagery showing the ground launch from near the Russian border.

And for the R-60 air to air missile? The photo of the jillion holes in the side of the fuselage pretty much refutes that. The early R-60 has an expanding rod warhead. The newer ones a continuous rod warhead.
This rapidly expanding ring, when hitting the aircraft, can be more effective than an equivalent fragmentation warhead: the ring's effectiveness decreases as 1/R, rather than 1/R2 for fragments.[2] Portions of the aircraft intercepted by the expanding ring will receive a continuous cut through the skin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead

Classic propaganda. Obfuscate the simple truth by throwing out a dozen red herrings. Sow uncertainty and dissent among the critics. Blame one or two others as culprits. Interfere with collecting evidence. For good measure blame the victim: why was MH17 even there? (because plenty of other airlines were using the same corridor)
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
Not going through all your points
US missile tracking imagery showing the ground launch from near the Russian border.
The whole area is near the Russian border, that is very obscure statement.

Have you seen the said imagery? Could you post the link? That is one thing I was asking all along - where was the launch position? Withholding this information is mudding the waters, unless you could come up with a valid reason not to do so. I cannot.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
It is easy to call Russians reports false. But you cannot call false the obvious - complete silence in the Western media about them in the last 24 hours. This by itself is a very telling and disturbing fact. I was naive to think that at least some media is at least somewhat independent.
We are hiding the facts, as you hopefully can see.
Well, if you know the truth but do not want to share - means you do not like what you know, right?
Bu seriously - why they are hiding the facts? 'Trust us people we know we are doing the right thing' does not work, not after Snowden.

Here we go with the usual conspiracy theory nonsense.

And this..
The biggest liars are politicians, regardless of nationality.
Wow, takes a lot of balls to say this! Zzzz. Climbers are easily the best liars.

As usual, the NYTimes has it correct..
On Monday, Dutch forensics experts and representatives of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe finally examined the four refrigerated rail cars holding the remains of the crash victims, which were taken to Kharkiv, Ukraine, for proper identification. As President Obama said in a brief statement on Monday, returning the remains to their families as soon as possible is “the least we can do.”

But it is far from all that must be done. The facts about the shooting down of the plane must be established by trusted, international experts. The most likely finding, for which American and other Western officials say there is strong evidence, is that the jetliner was brought down by rockets fired from rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine. That would require not only ground-to-air missiles but also the expertise and equipment to guide them, raising the possibility of assistance from Russia itself. Russia has denied any such role, and its military officials have pushed a competing scenario, inculpating Ukraine.

These are very serious charges. Innocent victims are sadly common in conflicts, but whoever unleashed a lethal missile not knowing how to distinguish between a military and a civilian plane is not only irresponsible and stupid, but a war criminal. The evidence lies in those same fields that the separatists have effectively sealed off for days. Though they surrendered the flight recorder boxes to Malaysian officials on Monday, their delay gave them plenty of time to hide or destroy incriminating evidence.

President Vladimir Putin of Russia issued a statement on Monday saying, “Everything possible must be done to ensure that international experts can work in safety at the crash site,” and Russia joined in a United Nations Security Council resolution demanding full access to the crash site and condemning the downing of the plane. But then Mr. Putin has said many reasonable and conciliatory things since the Ukrainian crisis began, and he has done nothing to rein in the thugs who have seized control of parts of eastern Ukraine, or to block the fighters and sophisticated weapons supplied them from Russia.

In that same statement, Mr. Putin also sought to transfer blame to Ukraine, saying the tragedy would not have happened if Kiev had maintained a cease-fire. And he sanctimoniously declared “no one has the right to use this tragedy to pursue their own political goals.” That is not terribly convincing coming from Mr. Putin, who has cynically encouraged a dangerous secessionist conflict to grow until it became a threat to the world.

The comments from European leaders have been clear and tough, but words will count for little unless European Union foreign ministers enforce more stringent sanctions against Russia if it fails to cooperate in an immediate and independent investigation of the plane crash, and take tangible measures to curb the rebels. After the downing of Flight 17 and the brutish handling of the victims, it is time for Europe to hold Mr. Putin to his words.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Jul 22, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Two fully loaded Ukraine fighter jets flying next to Malaysian Airliner minutes before shut down make things little more complicated .
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 22, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
Nothing complicated at all


Just a thug's toadies f*#ked up!
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 22, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
^^^ TGT, please move your image. Its skewing the page, and making it necessary to scroll back and forth.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 22, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
This incident was likely a mistake.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
This incident was likely a mistake.
That would be the better outcome of that horror story. It will be much worse if it turns out that it was a premeditated crime serving the goals of some f*ed up third grade politician in some f*ed up third grade country.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 22, 2014 - 11:53pm PT
Washington is doing everything possible to promote a war with Russia and China to save the dollar, so we don't have to pay off the $20 trillion national debt......and under the misconception that it is possible to win a nuclear war...

Complete rubbish.
Greg Barnes

climber
Jul 23, 2014 - 10:00am PT
Only an idiot would believe any of these conspiracy theories. But you'd have to be a total fool to think Putin's government isn't doing all it can to monitor social media. Example: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28173513

If I had family in Russia, you can be damn sure I'd be here vehemently supporting all sorts of pro-Russia conspiracy theories.

I feel nothing but concern for the families of people proclaiming support for Putin.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jul 23, 2014 - 10:24am PT
I'm left wondering who has killed more people, Capitalists or Chiropractors?

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 23, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/23/us-intelligence-evidence-russia-paul-craig-roberts/

US Intelligence: Russia Didn’t Do It

Paul Craig Roberts

After days of placing hostile blame for the downing of the Malaysian airliner on Russia, the White House permitted US intelligence officials to tell reporters that there is no evidence of the Russian government’s involvement.

Obviously, the US satellite photos do not support the Obama regime’s lies. If the White House had any evidence of Russian complicity, it would have released it to great fanfare days ago.

We are fortunate that the analytical side of the CIA, in contrast with the black ops side, retains analysts with integrity even after the purge of the agency ordered by Dick Cheney. Incensed that the CIA did not immediately fall in line with all of the Bush regime’s war lies, Cheney had the agency purged. The black ops side of the agency is a different story. Many believe that it should be defunded and abolished as this part of the CIA operates in violation of statutory US law.

Don’t hold your breath until Washington abolishes black-ops operations or the Obama regime apologizes to the Russian government for the unfounded accusations and insinuations leveled by the White House at Russia.

Despite this admission by US intelligence officials, the propaganda ministry is already at work to undermine the admission. The intelligence officials themselves claim that Russia is, perhaps, indirectly responsible, because Russia “created the conditions” that caused Kiev to attack the separatists.

In other words, Washington’s coup overseen by US State Department official Victoria Nuland, which overthrew an elected democratic Ukrainian government and brought extreme Russophobes into power in Kiev who attacked dissenting former Russian territories that were attached to Ukraine by Soviet communist party leaders when Russia and Ukraine were part of the same country, has no responsibility for the result.

Washington is innocent. Russia is guilty. End of story.

The day previously, State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf, one of the Obama regime’s brainless warmonger women, angrily turned on reporters who asked about the Russian government’s official denial of responsibility. Don’t you understand, she demanded, that what the US government says is credible and what the Russian government says is not credible!

Rest assured that the owners of the media and the editors of the reporters received calls and threats. I wouldn’t be surprised if the reporters have lost their jobs for doing their jobs.

There you have it. America’s free press. The American press is free to lie for the government, but mustn’t dare exercise any other freedom.

Washington will never permit official clarification of MH-17. Today (July 23) the BBC (the British Brainwashing Corporation) declared: “Whitehall sources say information has emerged that MH17 crash evidence was deliberated tampered with, as the plane’s black boxes arrive in the UK.”

After making this claim of tampered with black boxes, the BBC contradicted itself: “The Dutch Safety Board, which is leading the investigation, said ‘valid data’ had been downloaded from MH17’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) which will be ‘further analyzed’. The board said: ‘The CVR was damaged but the memory module was intact. Furthermore no evidence or indications of manipulation of the CVR was found.’”

The BBC does not tell us how the black boxes are simultaneously in British and Dutch hands, or how they got into British and Dutch hands when the separatists gave the black boxes to the Malaysians with the guarantee that the black boxes would be turned over to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) for expert and non-politicized examination.

So where are the black boxes? If the Malaysians gave them to the British, Whitehall will tell whatever lie Washington demands. If Washington’s British puppet actually has the black boxes, we will never know the truth. Judging from the hostile and unsupported accusations against Russia from the bought-and-paid-for Netherlands prime minister, we can expect the Dutch also to lie for Washington. Apparently, Washington has succeeded in removing the “investigation” from the ICAO’s hands and placing the investigation in the hands of its puppets.

The problem with writing columns based on Western news reports is that you have no idea of the veracity of the news reports.

From all appearances, the Obama regime intends to turn the “international investigation” into an indictment of Russia, and the Dutch seem to be lined up behind this corrupt use of the investigation. As the Washington Post story makes clear, there is no room in the investigation for any suspicion that Kiev and Washington might be responsible. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/malaysia-flight-17-prosecution-faces-major-evidentiary-and-legal-obstacles/2014/07/22/a8c7ebe4-11db-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html

By continuing to trust a corrupt West that is devoid of integrity and of good will toward Russia, the separatists and the Russian government have again set themselves up for vilification. Will they never learn?

As I write, more confusion is added to the story. It has just come across my screen that Reuters reports that Alexander Khodakovsky, “a powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.” Reuters says that this separatist commander (or perhaps former commander as later in its report Reuters describes Khodakovsky as “a former head of the ‘Alpha’ anti-terrorism unit of the security service in Donetsk”) is in dispute with other commanders about the conduct of the war.

Khodakovsky makes clear that he doesn’t know which unit might have had the missile or from where it was fired. He makes it clear that he has no precise or real information. His theory is that the Ukrainian government tricked the separatists into firing the missile by launching airstrikes in the area over which the airliner was flying and by sending military jets to the vicinity of the airliner to create the appearance of military aircraft. Reuters quotes Khodakovsky, “”Even if there was a BUK, and even if the BUK was used, Ukraine did everything to ensure that a civilian aircraft was shot down”

Not knowing the nature of Khodakovsky’s dispute with other commanders or his motivation, it is difficult to assess the validity of his story, but his tale does explain why Ukrainian air control would route the Malaysian airliner over the combat area, a hitherto unexplained decision.

After the sensational part of its story, Reuters seems to back away a bit. Reuters quotes Khodakovsky saying that the separatist movement has different leaders and “our cooperation is somewhat conditional.” Khodakovsky then becomes uncertain as to whether the separatists did or did not have operational BUK missiles. According to Reuters, Khodakovsky “said none of the BUKs captured from Ukrainian forces were operational.” This implies that Russia provided the working missile to the separatists if such a missile existed.

I find the separatists’ reply convincing. If we have these missiles why to the fools in Kiev send aircraft to bomb us, and why is their bombing so successful? The separatists do have shoulder fired ground to air missiles of the kind that the US supplied to Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion. These missiles are only capable for low flying aircraft. They cannot reach 33,000 feet.

According to Reuters, the reporting of its story was by one person, the writing by a second, and the editing by a third. From my experience in journalism, this means that we don’t know whose story it is, how the story was changed, or what its reliability might be.

We can safely conclude that the obfuscations are just beginning, and like 9 /11 and John F. Kennedy’s assassination, there will be no alternative to individuals forming their own opinion from researching the evidence. The United States government will never come clean, and the British government and presstitute media will never stop telling lies for Washington.

Washington’s bribes and threats can produce whatever story Washington wants. Keep in mind that a totally corrupt White House, over the objections of its own intelligence agencies, sent the Secretary of State to the United Nations to lie to the world about Iraqi weapons of mass production that the White House knew did not exist. The consequences are that millions were killed, maimed, and displaced for no other reason than Washington’s lie and rising instability in the Middle East.

The Obama regime lied on the basis of concocted “evidence” that Assad had used chemical weapons against the Syrian people, thus crossing the “red line” that the White House had drawn, justifying a US military attack on the Syrian people. The Russian government exposed the fake evidence, and the British Parliament voted down any UK participation in the Obama regime’s attack on Syria. Left isolated, the Obama regime dared not assume the obvious role of war criminal.

Blocked in this way, the Obama regime financed and supplied outside jihadist militants to attack Syria, with the consequence that a radial ISIL is in the process of carving out a new Caliphate from parts of Iraq and Syria.

Keep in mind that both the George W. Bush and Obama regimes have also lied through their teeth about “Iranian nukes.”

The only possible conclusion is that a government that consistently lies is not believable.

Since the corrupt Clinton regime, American journalists have been forced by their bosses to lie for Washington. It is a hopeful sign that in their confrontation with Marie Harf some journalists found a bit of courage. Let’s hope it takes root and grows.

I do not think that the United States can recover from the damage inflicted by the neoconservatives who determined the policies of the Clinton, George W. Bush and Obama governments, but whenever we see signs of opposition to the massive lies and deceptions that define the US government in the 21st century, we should cheer and support those who confront the lies.

Our future, and that of the world, depend on it.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 24, 2014 - 11:41pm PT
According to Russian news agency, (state run; trust at your own risk) http://ria.ru/world/20140725/1017459906.html - English version ohttp://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191242509/Ukrainian-Air-Defense-Exercises-Might-be-Behind-Malaysian.html-
sources in Ukrainian security claimed that MH17 was shot down by Ukrainian military by accident, during the training exercise. The squad is placed under arrest. 2 SU-25s were supposedly on reconnaissance mission and also used as practice targets. No launches were planned. The launch was performed from "Zaroshchens'ke, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine" area (google maps recognize that place).

That is the position of the closest to the crash site launchers shown at the Russian sat images.

Ukrainian Prime minister resigned today (yesterday Ukraine time), by coincidence.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 25, 2014 - 06:01pm PT
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/25/russia-humanity-future-paul-craig-roberts/


Does Russia (And Humanity) Have A Future?
Europe is complicit in its own demise

Paul Craig Roberts

The Russian government has finally realized that it has no Western “partners,” and is complaining bitterly about the propagandistic lies and disinformation issued without any evidence whatsoever against the Russian government by Washington, its European vassals, and presstitute media.

Perhaps the Russian government thought that only Iraq, Libya, Syria, China, and Edward Snowden would be subjected to Washington’s lies and demonization.

It was obvious enough that Russia would be next.

The Russian government and Europe need to look beyond Washington’s propaganda, because the reality is much worst.

NATO commander General Breedlove and Senate bill 2277 clearly indicate that Washington is organizing itself and Europe for war against Russia (see my previously posted column).

Europe is reluctant to agree with Washington to put Ukraine in NATO. Europeans understand that if Washington or its stooges in Kiev cause a war with Russia Europe will be the first casualty. Washington finds its vassals’ noncompliance tiresome. Remember Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland’s “f*#k the EU.” And that is just what Washington is about to do.

The US Senate’s Russian Aggression Prevention Act, about which I reported in my previous column, does even more mischief than I reported. If the bill passes, which it likely will, Washington becomes empowered to bypass NATO and to grant the status of “allied nation” to Ukraine independently of NATO membership. By so doing, Washington can send troops to Ukraine and thereby commit NATO to a war with Russia.

Notice how quickly Washington escalated the orchestrated Ukrainian “crisis” without any evidence into “Russian aggression.” Overnight we have the NATO commander and US senators taking actions against “Russian aggression” of which no one has seen any evidence.

With Iraq, Libya, and Syria, Washington learned that Washington could act on the basis of baldfaced lies. No one, not Great Britain, not France, not Germany, not Italy, not the Netherlands, not Canada, not Australia, not Mexico, not New Zealand, not Israel, nor Japan, nor S. Korea, nor Taiwan, nor (substitute your selection) stepped forward to hold Washington accountable for its blatant lies and war crimes. The UN even accepted the package of blatant and obviously transparent lies that Colin Powell delivered to the UN. Everything Powell said had already been refuted by the UN’s own weapons inspectors. Yet the UN pussies gave the go-ahead for a devastating war.

The only conclusion is that all the whores were paid off. The whores can always count on Washington paying them off. For money the whores are selling out civilization to Washington’s war, which likely will be nuclear and terminate life on earth. The whores’ money will incinerate with them.

It is hardly surprising that Washington now targets Russia. The world has given Washington carte blanche to do as it pleases. We have now had three administrations of US war criminals welcomed and honored wherever the war criminals go. The other governments in the world continue to desire invitations to the White House as indications of their worth. To be received by war criminals has become the highest honor.

Even the president of China comes to Washington to receive acceptance by the Evil Empire.

The world did not notice Washington’s war crimes against Serbia and didn’t puke when Washington then put the Serbian president, who had tried to prevent his country from being torn apart by Washington, on trial as a war criminal.

The world has made no effort to hold Washington responsible for its destruction of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and now Syria and Gaza. The world has not demanded that Washington stop murdering people in Pakistan and Yemen, countries with which Washington is not at war. The world looks the other way as Washington creates the US Africa Command. The world looks the other way as Washington sends deadly weapons to Israel with which to murder women and children in the Gaza Ghetto. Washington passes Senate and House Resolutions cheering on the Israeli murder of Palestinians.

Washington is accustomed to its free pass, granted by the world, to murder and to lie, and now is using it against Russia.

Russian President Putin’s bet that by responding to Washington’s aggression in Ukraine in a unprovocative and reasonable manner would demonstrate to Europe that Russia was not the source of the problem has not payed off. European countries are captive nations. They are incapable of thinking and acting for themselves. They bend to Washington’s will. Essentially, Europe is a nonentity that follows Washington’s orders.

If the Russian government hopes to prevent war with Washington, which is likely to be the final war for life on earth, the Russian government needs to act now and end the problem in Ukraine by accepting the separatist provinces’ request to be reunited with Russia. Once S.2277 passes, Russia cannot retrieve the situation without confronting militarily the US, because Ukraine will have been declared an American ally.

Putin’s bet was reasonable and responsible, but Europe has failed him. If Putin does not use Russian power to bring an end to the problem with which Washington has presented him in Ukraine while he still can, Washington’s next step will be to unleash its hundreds of NGOs inside Russia to denounce Putin as a traitor for abandoning the Russian populations in the former Russian provinces that Soviet leaders thoughtlessly attached to Ukraine.

The problem with being a leader is that you inherit festering problems left by previous leaders. Putin has the problems bequeathed by Yeltsin. Yeltsin was a disaster for Russia. Yeltsin was Washington’s puppet. It is not certain that Russia will survive Yeltsin’s mistakes.

If Washington has its way, Russia will survive only as an American puppet state.

In a previous column I described the article in Foreign Affairs, the journal of the Washington foreign policy community, that makes a case that the US has such strategic advantage over Russia at this time that a “window of opportunity” exists for the US to remove Russia as a restraint on US hegemony with a preemptive nuclear attack.

It is almost certain that Obama is being told that President John F. Kennedy had this window of opportunity and did not use it, and that Obama must not let the opportunity pass a second time.

As Stephen Starr explained in a guest column, there are no winners of nuclear war. Even if the US escapes retaliatory strikes, everyone will die regardless.

The view in Washington of the neoconservatives, who control the Obama regime, is that nuclear war is winnable. No expert opinion supports their assumption, but the neocons, not the experts, are in power,

The American people are out to lunch. They have no comprehension of their likely fate. Americans are an uninformed people distracted by their mounting personal and financial problems. If Europeans are aware, they have decided to live for the moment on Washington’s money.

What life is faced with is a drive for hegemony on the part of Washington and ignorant unconcern on the part of the rest of the world.

Americans, worked into a lather about Washington’s unfunded liabilities and the viability of their future Social Security pension, won’t be alive to collect it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 25, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
Paul Craig Roberts says -- "The American people are out to lunch."

They're stoopid brainwashed as sh!t!

They have no clue what's really going on.

The American press censors just about everything.

NYT, Wall St Journal, CNN and all the major media outlets are totally worthless garbage posing as truth.

There's nothing but criminals running everything .......
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 26, 2014 - 05:55am PT
The American press censors just about everything.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 26, 2014 - 11:23am PT
so the biggest news on the subject for weeks is that Yatsenyuk resigns as Ukraine's Premier after the coalition government dissolves over the issue that their training exercise gone wrong accidentally shot down the airliner...and the US media giants NBC, CBS, PBS, BBC all completely blank out on the subject...yeah, sure, 'no censorship'...
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Jul 26, 2014 - 11:49am PT
Yeah I think I'm gonna go ahead and listen to Paul Roberts and dismiss everything else as biased. I mean he only used the word 'regime' 12 times in his article so he can't be biased.
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 26, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
'The training exercise gone wrong' is complete rubbish BTW. If Ukrainian military indeed shot down the plane - it was completely intentional. They may not known the correct target identity but they definitely were going after that plane. Position of the launcher that dangerously close to rebel controlled area is not meant to do training either. The words about two targets overlapping on the radar and causing it to switch the targets is complete BS. The soviet system designed in 1985 does not have flaws like that. It can perfectly safe for own planes handle the combat zone, cherry picking the foes. Normal combat application with command unit participation is completely automated - handling 8 target at the same time is a bit out the range of the human abilities.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jul 27, 2014 - 07:37am PT
Vlani is correct, to a point. One failure mode common to virtually ALL air defense systems is the "track swap", wherein two targets that pass within the same range and velocity gate exchange track ID. Could that have happened here? More likely is an autonomously operating TELAR launched on the first non friendly target that it detected and tracked. Intentional shot, accidental target.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 29, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
TomCochrane posted
so the biggest news on the subject for weeks is that Yatsenyuk resigns as Ukraine's Premier after the coalition government dissolves over the issue that their training exercise gone wrong accidentally shot down the airliner...and the US media giants NBC, CBS, PBS, BBC all completely blank out on the subject...yeah, sure, 'no censorship'...

Censorship is when someone in authority tells you that you can't say something. The majority of American news outlets didn't cover it because Americans do not care about international news. By the way, an easy search of their websites revealed that the BCC, Bloomberg, FOX, the AP, NPR, Washington Post, the New York Times, and the LA Times all covered Yatsenyuk's resignation. You might want to actually bother looking before you make these kinds of broad assertions. Lastly, if you really think the "biggest news on the subject [of Ukraine] for weeks" is Yatsenyuk's resignation then you might want to reread the topic of this thread.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
my comment refers to their public TV news broadcasts


obviously they are not my only sources of information


the bankster controlled media should be considered primarily as entertainment, not as reliable information sources...


at best they will tell you that something is happening, not reliably what is happening or its international importance and consequences



you underestimate the importance to this discussion of the resignation by a US puppet who was installed at great expense
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
Tom, I stopped reading your copied posts a long time ago. They are a waste of a lot of time to get to any point.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 29, 2014 - 11:54pm PT
Once again, this was a tragic mistake. It will not ensure support of any side. And the area to any commercial companys should have been a VOLUNTARY NO FLY ZONE long ago. Do they really need "orders" to avoid a war Zone?

Lets see---as I recall, GW Bush declared an international War on Terror by the US. Are we not a war zone?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:03am PT
TomCochrane posted
you underestimate the importance to this discussion of the resignation by a US puppet who was installed at great expense

I'm not underestimating anything other than your ability to misplace motives.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:18am PT
Didn't take Rifleman Ron long to return to past form...apology tour 2.0 coming soon.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:43am PT
as it illustrates well what you actually stand for
or.....blind and willing stupidity knows no bounds
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 11:46am PT
And now those crazy phuks have mined the area surrounding the crash site to keep the
investigators away; as if an investigation is really needed after that tacit admission of guilt.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
If I were Obumbly, id be concentrating on that too
Well then, what's your plan?
For MH17?
For Ukraine?
For Gaza?
For Syria?
For Iraq?
For Afghanistan?

Good management requires you prioritize, assess short and long term risk vs benefits, make a plan and then find the money.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 30, 2014 - 12:48pm PT
Exactly, too bad Obama hasn't been doing that.

LA Times, aka 'That Pinko Rag':

Obama needs to work on his foreign policy, not his golf game
overwatch

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
There is no doubt Putin could stomp Obamas' ass
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Ron
largely I agree with you.

Unfortunately we can't entirely turn our backs on the "outside" world of Asia, Africa, Middle East, East Europe and Central America.

Strangely enough I think the most serious problem and possibly even the one we can help solve is Hamas vs Israel.
The majority of people on both sides want to live in peace with their neighbors. Unfortunately Hamas and Netanwhoowhoo prefer belligerence to negotiation.
A pox on both their houses. I mean specifically Hamas and Netanwhoowhoo, not Palestinians or Israelis in general.

Peace between Palestinians and Israelis would go a long way to reducing excuses for war all over the Middle East.
Obama/Clinton/Kerry have done an excellent job with Iran's nuclear capabilities. Although it ain't over till it's over. Although not dramatic saber rattling, our ability to wield cooperative economic power can have a potent effect.
WBraun

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Netanyahu is a total aszhole and the biggest criminal & terrorist on the planet.

The guy should be locked up forever and tried for international murder of humanity.

Obama and Putin can't stand this prick either nor can most sane people.

Netanyahu is a certified psychotic nutcase ......
overwatch

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
Wasn't he Mossad before PM?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:49pm PT
not Mossad, Sayeret Matkal
Special Forces in several of the wars. His older brother was killed in the Entebbe Raid.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 30, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
. We stopped fighting Wars 70 some years ago.
Not quite so long. The draft ended in 1972. That's where we lost our ability to fight a conventional war.

I'd thought the payout wouldn't occur in my lifetime, but things are unraveling much faster now. One generation of exponential birthrate, has changed the landscape of the Muslim world.

So one day, we'll be faced with choices, such as watching the Islamic tide engulf Israel, or start nuking entirely around it. To protect some old stones.

Similarly our NATO obligations may drag us into a situation, we can't fight a conventional war, we're obliged to go Nuclear. And do the exact thing, we lambaste others for. Self righteousness is our only ally.
overwatch

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Good scoop HT, I knew it was something like that
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
http://www.globalresearch.ca/collapse-of-ukraine-government-prime-minister-yatsenyuk-resigns-amidst-pressures-exerted-by-the-imf/5393168

Global Research, July 24, 2014

Ukraine’s Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk announced his resignation in the Rada (Parliament) and that of the entire Cabinet on Thursday, July 24. This decision was taken following the withdrawal of two parties from the coalition government and the non-adoption of two important pieces of legislation, which had been demanded by the International Monetary Fund (IMF)

“I announce my resignation after the collapse of the coalition and the blocking of government initiatives …

“In connection with the breakup of the parliamentary coalition, as well as non-adoption of a number of important bills, I announce my resignation,”

The resignation of the Prime Minister signifies the collapse of the government and the resignation of the entire cabinet.

“But the cabinet members will continue fulfilling their duties until a new coalition is formed in the Rada.”

On July 24th, the Rada failed to support the government’s bill pertaining to the 2014 budget sequestration, which had been demanded by the IMF on behalf of Kiev’s external creditors. The disbursement by the IMF of the “Second Tranche” of a 17 billion dollar policy based loan was conditional upon the prior adoption of this legislation.

“The parliament must adopt amendments to the state budget needed to finance our army and also documents needed for cooperation with international financial institutions.[e.g. IMF, World Bank, EBRD]” said PM Yatsenyuk. (emphasis added)

The entire country is in an impasse. No money will be forthcoming from the IMF until this legislation is adopted. In the meantime, Ukraine remains on the blacklist of its external creditors.

Moreover, a controversial draft law on reforming the country’s gas transportation system was rejected (Itar-Tass, July 24, 2014).

Both bills were tied into the government’s negotiations with both the EU and the IMF.

What Happens Next?

The national economy is in crisis, the political structures of the country are in total disarray, all of which is occurring in the immediate wake of the Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash in Eastern Ukraine.

The two parties which left the coalition are The Neo-Nazi Svoboda party and the Centre Right Ukraine Democratic Alliance for Reform (UDAR) Party led by former champion boxer Vitali Klitschko.

President Poroshenko (left) has intimated that the resignation of the cabinet has paved the way for a process of meaningful political restructuring: “Society wants a full reset of state authorities,” said Mr Poroshenko.

What is implied by Poroshenko’s statement is that the parliamentary process is slated to become defunct inasmuch as Rada is obligated to adopt the legislation demanded by the IMF and the European Union. And if the Rada does not adopt the legislation, the composition of the Parliament will be changed through a process of outright political manipulation.

The 2014 budget project demanded by the IMF includes massive cuts in social spending coupled with increased allocations to the Armed Forces. Its adoption will contribute (virtually overnight) to a further process of the impoverishment of the Ukraine population.

The speaker of the Rada, Mr. Oleksandr Turchynov confirmed that the Ukraine Democratic Alliance for Reform (UDAR) and Svoboda (Freedom) would be invited to propose a candidate to occupy the post of interim Prime Minister.

So much for democracy: the leader of a Neo-Nazi formation Oleh Tyahnybok (Image right) will play a key role in the appointment of an interim Prime Minister to replace Mr. Yatsenyuk.

Parliamentary elections will only occur if the Rada fails to forge a new coalition government within the next 30 days:

The breakup of the coalition “was probably agreed on by political parties seeking elections and the president,” Yuriy Yakymenko, the head of political research at Kiev’s Razumkov Center, a non-governmental policy group, said by phone.

“Withdrawals from the coalition should not paralyze the parliament’s work,” Poroshenko said before Yatsenyuk announced his resignation.” (Business Week, July 24, 2014

Yatsenyuk intimated in his resignation speech that the State was bankrupt and that failure to abide by IMF demands would create social chaos:

“The fact is that today you failed to vote for the laws, and I have nothing (with which) to pay wages of policemen, doctors, teachers; nothing to buy a rifle with, nothing to fuel an armored personnel carrier with. Today you failed to take a decision to fill the gas storages to allow us to live through the winter, to at last free ourselves from dependence on Russian gas,” (Rada, July 24, 2014)

The IMF Program and the Interim Government

In the days following the Ukraine coup d’Etat of February 23, which led to the ousting of the duly elected president, Wall Street and the IMF–in liaison with the US Treasury and the European Commission in Brussels– had already set the stage for the imposition of the IMF’s “strong economic medicine”.

Following the installation of the interim coalition government, Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk dismissed the need to even negotiate with the IMF. He called for an an unconditional acceptance of IMF shock therapy:

“We have no other choice but to accept the IMF offer”.

Yatsenyuk intimated that Ukraine will “accept whatever offer the IMF and the EU made” (voice of russia.com March 21, 2014, emphasis added)

In surrendering to the IMF at the outset of the interim government in March 2014, Yatsenyuk was fully aware that the proposed IMF-World Bank macro-economic reforms would brutally impoverish millions of people, including those who protested in Maidan against the Yanukovitch government.

The adoption of the more ruthless components of the IMF’s economic package requiring supportive legislation had been delayed until after the May 25 elections.

Cracking Down on the Party of Regions and the Communist Party

Meanwhile, the government is cracking down on the Ukraine Communist Party which is now illegal as well as on the Party of Regions, both of which were firmly opposed to the IMF policy reforms.

Ukraine as An Ally without NATO Status

In turn, the Ministry of Defense has raised the issue of direct US military support in the military campaign in Eastern Ukraine, where the Donbass militia have repealed the forces of the Kiev regime.

“The current situation testifies to clear Russian interference in Ukraine and its military support to terrorist groups active in Ukraine’s eastern regions… Right now, Ukraine’s armed forces need international support more than ever before”, said Deputy Defense Ihor Kabanenko to David Baldwin, commander of the California National Guard. (Kiev Post, July 24, 2014)

Commander Baldwin was in Kiev for high level consultations with the Ministry of Defense. In the course of his meetings with DeputyDefense Minister Ihor Kabanenko, Baldwin announced on behalf of the US government that:

“The United States of America is considering the possibility of granting Ukraine the status of an ally without membership in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).

… Baldwin said that the American side highly appreciates its cooperation with the Armed Forces of Ukraine and that it is ready to provide comprehensive support to them.

He stressed that a draft law on prevention of Russian aggression, adoption of which will allow Ukraine to obtain the status of an ally of the United States without NATO membership, is currently under consideration by the United States government.

… President Petro Poroshenko has asked the United States Congress to declare the self-proclaimed “People’s Republic of Luhansk” and “People’s Republic of Donetsk” as terrorist organizations and declare their members as terrorists.Poroshenko believes that when sanctions are not working, there are grounds for appeal to the United States Congress to grant Ukraine the special status of a major ally outside NATO (like Israel, Australia, and the Philippines) to enable it to solve its security problems. (Ukrainian News, July 24, 2014, emphasis added)

The granting of the “status of ally outside NATO” would set the stage for the possible deployment of US and NATO forces inside Ukraine in the context of joint military operations with the Ukraine Armed Forces and National Guard.


About the author: Prof Michel Chossudovsky
Michel Chossudovsky is an award-winning author, Professor of Economics (emeritus) at the University of Ottawa, Founder and Director of the Centre for Research on Globalization (CRG), Montreal and Editor of the globalresearch.ca website. He is the author of The Globalization of Poverty and The New World Order (2003) and America’s “War on Terrorism”(2005). His most recent book is entitled Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War (2011). He is also a contributor to the Encyclopaedia Britannica. His writings have been published in more than twenty languages. He can be reached at crgeditor@yahoo.com
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pilot-speaks-out-shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/5394111


Revelations of German Pilot: Shocking Analysis of the “Shooting Down” of Malaysian MH17. “Aircraft Was Not Hit by a Missile”
By Peter Haisenko
Global Research, July 30, 2014
anderweltonline.com

Malaysia MH17
Zur deutschen Version bitte hier anklicken

-

The tragedy of Malaysian MH 017 continues to elude any light of clarity being cast over it.

The flight recorders are in England and are evaluated. What can come of it? Maybe more than you would assume.

Especially the voice recorder will be interesting when you look at the picture of a cockpit fragment. As an expert in aviation I closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.

Peter Haisenko in Cockpit of Condor DC 10

First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the pilots side. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can now hear views expressed of a “potentially tragic error / accident” regarding MH 017. Given this particular cockpit image it does not surprise me at all.

Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area

Source for all photos: Internet

I recommend to click on the little picture to the left. You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefully exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.

In sifting through the available images one thing stands out: All wreckage of the sections behind the cockpit are largely intact, except for the fact that only fragments of the aircraft remained . Only the cockpit part shows these peculiar marks of destruction. This leaves the examiner with an important clue. This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material. This is on account of the nose of any aircraft having to withstand the impact of a large bird at high speeds. You can see in the photo, that in this area significantly stronger aluminum alloys were being installed than in the remainder of the outer skin of the fuselage. One remembers the crash of Pan Am over Lockerbie. It was a large segment of the cockpit that due to the special architecture survived the crash in one piece. In the case of flight MH 017 it becomes abundantly clear that there also an explosion took place inside the aircraft.

Tank destroying mix of ammunition

Bullet holes in the outer skin

So what could have happened? Russia recently published radar recordings, that confirm at least one Ukrainian SU 25 in close proximity to MH 017. This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017. If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment!

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.

What “mistake” was actually being committed – and by whom?

Graze on the wing

Because the interior of a commercial aircraft is a hermetically sealed pressurized chamber, the explosions will, in split second, increase the pressure inside the cabin to extreme levels or breaking point. An aircraft is not equipped for this, it will burst like a balloon. This explains a coherent scenario. The largely intact fragments of the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of construction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove. Furthermore, a wing segment shows traces of a grazing shot, which in direct extension leads to the cockpit. Interestingly, I found that both the high-resolution photo of the fragment of bullet riddled cockpit as well as the segment of grazed wing have in the meantime disappeared from Google Images. One can find virtually no more pictures of the wreckage, except the well known smoking ruins.

If you listen to the voices from Washington now who speak of a “potentially tragic error / accident”, all that remains is the question of what might have been the nature of this “mistake” perpetrated here. I am not given to hover long in the realm of speculation, but would like to invite others to consider the following : The MH 017 looked similar in it’s tricolor design to that that of the Russian President’s plane. The plane with President Putin on board was at the same time ”near” Malaysia MH 017. In aviation circles “close” would be considered to be anywhere between 150 to 200 miles. Also, in this context we might consider the deposition of Ms. Tymoshenko, who wanted to shoot President Putin with a Kalashnikov.

But that this remains pure speculation. The shelling of the cockpit of air Malaysia MH 017, however, is definitely not speculation.
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Jul 30, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
The draft ended in 1972. That's where we lost our ability to fight a conventional war.

LOL

I would love to hear the rationale behind this statement

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
Su-25 max speed 606 mph
Boing 777 cruise speed 560 mph
SU-25 service ceiling 22,925 ft
Boeing 777 cruise altitude 33,000 ft.

SU-25's were after Putin but were too late and then 150 miles later had climbed 10,000 feet above their service ceiling, caught up with MH17 and got far enough ahead to shoot it forward of the wings?
strains the credulity.

SA-11 (Buk) range 22 miles and 72,000 feet at Mach 3

Ilyushin IL-76 (Ukraine still has 18 of them)
Max speed 560 MPH
Service ceiling: 43,000 feet. 33,000 feet would be a reasonable altitude for cruising if you believe your enemy has no modern high altitude SAMs.

According to defence analyst Reed Foster (from Jane's Information Group), the contour of the aluminium and the blistering of the paint around many of the holes on the aircraft fragments indicate that small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel entered the aircraft externally, a damage pattern indicative of an SA-11

Intent to shoot down Putin with an SU-25 using an air to air missile vs. radar operator mistaking an airliner at 33,000 feet for a Ukraine IL-76transport and whacking it with an SA-11?
Which scenario meets the common sense test?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
i wasn't there, and neither were any of you...so how do we come to understand what happened except by searching for reports...

if you didn't like that one, check out this one:

http://nodisinfo.com/mh17/

The Crash of Malaysian Airlines MH17 is a Hoax

UPDATED: July 19, 2014, title change, July 20 with added commentary, Updated, again, July 23, 2014

How could the acclaimed crash of a Malaysian Airlines 777 over the skies of Ukraine be anything other than a false flag act, considering the date of the supposed event, July 17, the same day as the ground and tank invasion of the Gaza strip? Then, too, there is the issue of the date connection to TWA Flight 800, whose anniversary is on this very day which, in fact, was blown out of the sky most likely by a missile.

Video rewind: July 17, 1996: TWA Flight 800 crash

HLNtv.com
On July 17, 1996, TWA Flight 800 took off from New York’s JFK Airport en route to Paris. Just 12 minutes into the flight, the plane exploded over …

Plus, this is the maiden flight of MH17 – July 17, 1996, July 17, 2014, and Flight 17. That could be no coincidence.

Now, there were witnesses of this who described what they believed to be a mid-air explosion. Many such witnesses claimed seeing a missile aiming towards and then striking the jet.

Yet, what is seen regarding MH17? All that is seen is an explosion, not in the air but, rather, on the ground. It just so happened that certain individuals were in perfect position to capture that explosion or, rather, detonation. In this case a hovering helicopter is in place to document the image. It is not plausible that such a vehicle would be just in that position to do so.

Of note, now did the people who took this image possibly do so, unless they had advance knowledge?

If it got torn apart by a missile, how could it, then, explode on the ground in a fireball? The fuel is in the wings. The missile would have detonated that fuel, and the fire would have burned mainly in the air on the descent down.

Unlike Flight 800 there are no witnesses of fire in the sky, at least none that can be deemed as credible.With Malaysian Airlines MH17 all the fire that can be proven occurred without exception on the ground. Plus, that fire was set right next to the road, the road itself being clear of any char or debris.

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

It was a considerable fire-ball. Notice the char on the telephone pole.

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

The water trucks were there with the military conscripts ready to put out those fires, giving a relatively rapid response for the remote nature of the locality.

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

Surely, amongst all this charred rubble there would be major evidence of the nearly 300 passengers that were supposedly on this flight.

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

It just looks like a bunch of garbage was dumped into the region and set on fire. Note the two men walking away in the distance.

It was a sufficiently intensive fire to roast whatever this was into oblivion. Did the Israelis provide for this false flag act their Malaysian Airlines 777 that they had put in cold storage?

Where are those countless body parts? Where are the hundreds of charred corpses? The scene should be exceptionally macabre. Even so, there is imagery of corpses, this is not being denied. What is being disputed, though, is the official story that this jet was blown out of the sky by pro-Russian rebels.

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

Moreover, it all occurred not in some exceedingly remote area, randomly falling down, but, rather, right next to a road:

malaysianmh17hoax1

The occasional, random, that is strewn, wreckage is also found closely associated with roads. Yet, as a rule the road is free of any such large wreckage. In image upon image it is found that the wreckage is largely near the edge of the road.

malaysianairlineshoax332

Here it becomes categorically clear. The road is the conduit for the performance of this hoax. The plane was not shot down. It was ferried there and then blow up via detonation.

malaysianairlineshoax2332

Here is additional strewn wreckage. There can be no doubt about the fact that this was plopped there. A careful assessment demonstrates the fact that this jetliner component is sparkling clean and is free of all evidence of char or explosive damage. What is the man doing with his hand? Is he not punching out the windows?

Notice how the grass on the far right edge isn’t even pushed over from impact. This piece of plane component was simply dropped there manually. This does look like strewn wreckage.

The same is true of this plane section, once again being placed there purposely by agents of the arch-Zionist cabal:}~

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

Here is additional wreckage dropped right by the road. Yet, the road itself is essentially free of such debris – how convenient:

In pics: Crashed MH17 Malaysian plane

Oh, but there are people. Yet, is it so gruesome after all? Of note, there is what appears to be a body on the far edge of the wreckage, right screen.

In addition, the bodies of at least three individuals are seen:

They seem to be in relatively good condition. They are surely not blown apart. They fell 35,00 feet and in that good of shape? They do, though, appear to be real bodies of deceased individuals.

malaysianairliensmh17-3

How is it possible that these people could have survived the fire-ball without being roasted alive? Moreover, what are they doing just on the edge of the char line? Yet again, if the woman is dead, how could she be holding her arm up in the air. Yet, it is said:

Dozens of severely mutilated corpses could be seen strewn in the wreckage of flight MH17 that crashed Thursday in rebel-held eastern Ukraine but there were no signs of survivors, an AFP reporter at the scene said.

How about this for a pile of luggage? The captions read that it was gathered and piled there. How did it get placed there in such a convenient pile? There is no possibility that luggage could have survived in such a condition in the aftermath of such a missile struck plus fireball. Nor could it have fallen from the sky and still remain in such a state. It would have been scuffed and also dirty; there would have been stains. It could not have been in this condition:

Too, how is it that the wreckage or hard parts of the jet so charred, while the luggage and passports are pristine? This would indicate that, clearly, the luggage is also part of the staged act.

It is the passport grouping, though, that is proof of staging. This pile of passports is described as ‘passports found among the wreckage.’ That is impossible. They would not fall there together. Nor would they be in such a high-gloss, brand-new (and unused) condition. Nor would the stubs still be in them after going through a 35,000 foot free-fall. If those passports would have fallen out from 35,000 feet, the stubs would have been blown out.

This is absolute proof of the planting of fake evidence, which may be deemed “strewn passports and ticket stubs.”
malaysianairlinespassports

A physical impossibility, the state of these passports and stubs proves manipulation of the crime scene

The passports would be in people’s close possession, in their purses, coat pockets, pants pockets, and other. There is no way this can be real. The passport prop scene is absolute proof that the crash is a hoax and that, rather, this was a staged event, a plot by Zionist perpetrators.

Even so, the lies are great, like all Zionist-orchestrated frauds. According to AFP-based reports:

Debris was spread out for kilometres and the tail of a passenger jet lay in a corn field with the Malaysian Airlines insignia on it while insurgent fighters and several fire trucks were seen nearby the crash site.

Eyewitnesses told AFP that the jet appeared to explode in mid-air before wreckage rained down over a large area.

malaysianairlinesmh17hoax3

If it exploded in mid-air, then how could it have exploded on the ground also? Also, again, what is being asked, here, is why is the wreckage found so close to the edge of the road in the majority of instances, especially if this plane broke up in the sky from a missile strike?

The crisis actors have come to the fore to give an element of reality to the fake. Note the camera-persons strategically placed in the background. The man in the white shirt seems familiar. Was he also involved in the Malaysian MH370 hoax?

He’s angry. What’s he going to do, punch the ticket counter attendant? There are three or four people holding him back. This is mere drama. No one reacts in such a way when learning of the loss of a loved one.

There is a heavy camera presence with this man also. Note the fake hand-over-the-mouth sign.

The MH17 scam is a hoax perpetrated by the arch-Zionist cabal. The purpose is to distract world attention from the great treachery being committed by this murderous clique against the people of Palestine. It’s the talk of people’s minds, where the first bit of conversation will likely be, “Hey, did you hear about that plane crash in the Ukraine? Isn’t that terrible, 284 people dead?” Now, no one will consider the treachery committed by the Zionists, as they roast and murder chilren, teens, pregnant women, and more alive.

There is also a degree of agenda in relationship to the local politic of Ukraine.

Yet, Ukraine is a compliant Zionist enclave. It’s the ideal place to stage such a false flag act.

Sources:

http://ibnlive.in.com/photogallery/16373-7.html

http://therealsingapore.com/sites/default/files/field/image/531716754.jpg



so i realized years ago that when information leaks out that is supposed to be kept secret, the coverup consists of releasing multiple 'plausible' alternative stories...good luck on sorting out the truth...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
c'mon Tom
You're a pilot. Please explain how the SU-25 scenario could work?
I could take three minutes to calculate the closing speed but you've got a flight slide rule/calculator it will only take you 20 seconds.
The SU-25 is the Russian equivalent of our A10 Warthog. Low, slow, mean, nasty and you don't want to be it's ground target. Interceptor? not so much.

Ukraine does have SU-27 and Mig-29 air superiority/multirole planes. They definitely could catch and down an airliner at any altitude they liked.
But that's not the claim.

This statement is bogus:
why is the wreckage found so close to the edge of the road in the majority of instances, especially if this plane broke up in the sky from a missile strike
The wreckage is spread over 2 or3 miles. As are the bodies.
There's a relatively straight road along the wreckage path.

Even so, the lies are great, like all Zionist-orchestrated frauds.
WOW, Zionism too?
How about Putin/FSB frauds? Why isn't that likely?
Why do you think the rebels kept international observers out of the site for a week? What makes anyone think the current condition of the wreckage/bodies/belongings is anything like immediately after the crash?
If anyone had the means and opportunity to manipulate and obfuscate the site, it was the rebels and their FSB/Russian Army "trainers".

what venomous bunk
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:29pm PT
Ahhhh, yes, it's the, Jews. . .
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 30, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
The JOOOOOSSS

did it!

LOL!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 09:02pm PT
well, to start off, i do not claim to know what happened here...just trying to make sense of things, like many here...


the one thing i am pretty sure about is that this whole situation stinks to high heavens with the truth being heavily manipulated...there's just too many aspects of the situation that don't add up to the story being pushed by Washington's propaganda mill


if that concept makes you uncomfortable, then just invoke the 'Conspiracy Theory' excuse to stop thinking


it is not unusual to fly a plane outside of it's performance envelope, and it is common to modify a plane to increase it's performance envelope

and you can temporarily bust the service ceiling by going into a dive to maximum speed and then using the momentum to climb well beyond where the engines can push you in level flight

for example i once made a skydive out of a piper cub that was flying several thousand feet above it's maximum operating ceiling

i am not an experienced military interception pilot, so don't have a good feel for the dynamics of such an intercept...however military fast movers can generally do maneuvers that many people couldn't imagine...

i am not very familiar with the Sukhoi Su-25, but i have flown a plane that could fly rings around it...not to mention approaching an airliner, which would be like a sport bike toying with a school bus on the freeway...

and what is the evidence as to what sort of interceptor aircraft was up there?

i really don't know, just trying to do my homework...
dirtbag

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 09:13pm PT
The Crash of Malaysian Airlines MH17 is a Hoax


Oh for f*#k sake...


then just invoke the 'Conspiracy Theory' excuse to stop thinking

It seems to have worked for you...

klk

Trad climber
cali
Jul 30, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
Ahhhh, yes, it's the, Jews. . .

heh

only reason i posted in this train wreck for awhile was in hopes of heading off the inevitable links to the illuminati blogs.

but now i'm content to let nature take its course
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
has anyone here seen the movie 'Zeitguist'


the banksters have used the same technique to sucker the American people into a whole series of wars, and here it is being done again...the Lusitania for WWI, Pearl Harbor for WWII, the Tonkin Gulf Incident for Vietnam, etc...


the Russians have watched this happen in the past and see it happening now and aren't taking the bait


meanwhile the American public is either asleep or out-to-lunch

so how many people here think they know the story on what happened to this airliner


i am constantly reminded of the quote from Mark Twain about how it is much easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled


overwatch

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 10:26pm PT
Asleep after lunch?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 10:39pm PT
it is extraordinarily difficult to understand world events amidst all the biased manipulation, propaganda, and disinformation


i really don't much care much about your choice of political, religious and philosophical flavors; as my conviction is people are basically good, given a chance

i do care about whether you are making the effort to be aware and understand and communicate


evil arises from people being abused and confused


overwatch

climber
Jul 30, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
You got my respect...Tom Brown student aren't you?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 30, 2014 - 10:56pm PT
Thanks...




Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was traveling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 298, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.


“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

"The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical", the source added.

At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.

As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.

“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.

President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.
‘Tragedy would't have taken place if there was peace in Ukraine’

Ukraine should bear responsibility for Malaysian airliner tragedy, said the head of the Russian state at a meeting on economic issues, which he proposed to start with a minute of silence in memory of the victims of the disaster.

“Obviously, the state over whose territory it happened bears responsibility for this terrible tragedy,” he said late on Thursday.

“This tragedy would not have happened if there was peace on this land, if military action in the southeast of Ukraine had not been resumed,” Putin said, adding that he has asked the appropriate Russian authorities to do everything to investigate the matter.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jul 31, 2014 - 06:41am PT
Which scenario meets the common sense test?


The only "common sense test" applicable here is "can a bunch of nerds on a climbing website deduce the real cause of the airliner crash" to which the answer is "no." Can they do it without quickly devolving into illuminati conspiracy theories? Hell no.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2014 - 07:55am PT
Tom, a couple of comments regarding the article by Peter Haisenko on the last page. I don't
have access to the photos but he doesn't cite the photos' origin. Anything that originates from
either Russia or Ukraine must be viewed as specious, at best.

Second, Carlos The Mystery Controller 'said' he 'saw' two SU-25's on his screen. How could
he have known they were SU-25's and Ukrainian? I doubt they were squawking anything
but if they were it could have easily been bogus. He certainly could not have known they were
SU-25's based on his primary radar return so that casts more doubt on his 'statement'. Like
he could tell a SU-25 from a SU-27 based on his primary return?

Mr Haisenko's statement that the 777 would have "burst like a balloon" when hit by 30mm
rounds is patent nonsense that strongly calls into question his authority to say nothing of his
real intentions or his integrity.

The theory that the supposed Ukrainian pilots thought they were shooting down Putin's plane
further beggars Haisenko's credibility in that by the time they had closed to gun range the
Malaysian livery would have been obvious to Stevie Wonder. I won't even address the logic
of why the Ukrainians would have thought doing so would have worked out in their favor. I
will grant you that some rogue nihilists could have hatched such a plot so, in the end, to be
fair I will acknowledge that anything is possible in this insanity. ;-/
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 31, 2014 - 08:23am PT
Do any of you even realize what has gone down in the past few weeks? A major major shift in world politics and a line drawn as Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa formed a coliltion against the US and the "World Bank" by forming BRICS. It uses the first letter of each country to form the name BRICS. 50 billiom contributed each to banking, and first order of business was in the last two weeks presidents of both Russia and China visited South America and bailed out Argentina and Venezuela, and Cuba. These countries had huge celebrations and are now being weaned off the World Bank. I have been overseas watching all this on TV, and I get back and pick up the major Sunday newspapers, and not a single thing could I find about these enormous world events, and a huge counter to the World Bank and NATO by the major economic and nuclear superpowers joining forces to stand against us. Somebody somewhere is making a major effort to conceal from the American public what is really going down in the world right now. Hard to imagine our media is so controled. Harder still to imagine how far we have our heads up our ass.
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 31, 2014 - 08:33am PT
True, folks who are tapped into rightwing media don't get the real news.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 31, 2014 - 08:39am PT
Here's a link to the BRICS article.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7b876a0-170e-11e4-b0d7-00144feabdc0.html#axzz393nyzRLM
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Jul 31, 2014 - 09:16am PT
In fact, we're lucky we do have an experienced President now. Even if he is obsessed with fund raisers.

A new President, might over react the way GWB did after 9/11.

The US, doesn't have a dog in this fight. Better we confront the mess on our southern border.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2014 - 09:16am PT
I don't see what BRICS has to do with this topic and Studly's statement that
they "bailed out Argentina and Venezuela, and Cuba" doesn't really jive with
reality. Argentina is, as of today, in default for the fourth time in 34 years.

And if you really want to look at the news that isn't news how about the
Ebola epidemic that is quickly threatening to grow into a pandemic? It is
likely to gain a foothold in Nigeria at which point it could mean the end
for the rest of Africa and ...

Meanwhile the real important stuff is being nattered to death re: 'Sierra vs Sierras'.
Does the name Nero ring a bell?
overwatch

climber
Jul 31, 2014 - 09:21am PT
It is really interesting and frightening to me how people are set in their ways of thinking and will not be swayed no matter what. It is why these threads get so huge and are just arguments and not real debate, with no end in sight.

I personally believe anything is possible from the natural to the supernatural because of the things I have seen and experienced. I don't think government has the best interest of people at heart.

Edit:
Per Reilly's comment, I think he is saying what you are, that this incident its just a small indicator of much larger events unfolding in a troubled world
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jul 31, 2014 - 11:20am PT
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 31, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Second, Carlos The Mystery Controller 'said' he 'saw' two SU-25's on his screen. How could
he have known they were SU-25's and Ukrainian? I doubt they were squawking anything
but if they were it could have easily been bogus. He certainly could not have known they were
SU-25's based on his primary radar return so that casts more doubt on his 'statement'. Like
he could tell a SU-25 from a SU-27 based on his primary return?
Reilly, Carlos twitted exactly this:
El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,
and this:
Los cazas volaron cerca del 777, hasta 3 minutos antes de desaparecer de los radares, solo 3 minutos

Telling that jets are Ukrainian is pretty easy for controller who watches the take of of everything in his zone of responsibility. He never mentioned what kind of plane it was.

Russians in their intelligence briefing reported SU-25-s, and I'm guessing there are other means to tell the type of the plane other then the radar response. Ukrainians used SU-25 bombers in the conflict - if anything, it is easy to tell by inspecting the debris on the ground. The number of those downed is close to 10.

So far the only news worthy development in the case is that Ukrainian military increasingly obstructing the investigation on the grounds. Some inventive heads must figure out how to blame Putin in that.

BTW the media headlines "Airliner shot down by Russian-made missile' is another lie. Ukraine does not have Russian-made weapons, only Soviet made.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 31, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
Carlos twitted exactly this:
El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,
and this:
Los cazas volaron cerca del 777, hasta 3 minutos antes de desaparecer de los radares, solo 3 minutos

Telling that jets are Ukrainian is pretty easy for controller who watches the take of of everything in his zone of responsibility. He never mentioned what kind of plane it was.

Russians in their intelligence briefing reported SU-25-s

Vlani, you are beginning to sound like someone taking Disinformation 101.

First, what proof is there that 'Carlos' exists in some form other than a disinformation officer's imagination?

Second, that Carlos' "twitted" is pretty damning in and of itself.

Third, Carlos' Spanish sounds a little stilted to me, perhaps with a Russian/Ukrainian accent.

Fourth, your statement that "Telling that jets are Ukrainian is pretty easy for controller" proves
to me that you don't understand ATC radar. A controller gets his important information from
the 'secondary' radar which basically translates what the target's transponder is telling it into a
visual format. It is easily 'spoofed'. The 'primary' return tells him nothing except the size of the
target, more or less.

Fifth, you said "He never mentioned what kind of plane it was."
According to the article Tom posted he did.

Sixth, "Russians in their intelligence briefing reported SU-25-s."
Yeah, I'm soo gonna believe everything they say, not that the type matters.

The bottom line is that we know nothing other than some crazy phukkers shot
down an airliner. The whys and wherefors are pretty irrelevant, especially
if you were onboard. Russia and Ukraine deserve each other; Ukraine was
stupid to secede. The only reason they did so is that Ukrainian oligarchs
wanted a better cut of the pie. Just follow the money.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 31, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
Reilly
doncha know 9/11 was committed by Zionists and a separate rocket brought down World Trade Center #5?
The Separatists Accidentally Brought Down MH17 is a bogus cover story just like the official 9/11 storyline.
Oh, and the FBI blew up the Murrah Federal Building to frame Timothy McVeigh.
c'mon Reilly, you don't believe everything you read do you?
The more bizarre and unlikely the story, the more desperately the believers will cling to it.
The straightforward explanation is always the most suspect.
Just because.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 31, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Only Bundy can save us now.



vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 31, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
Reilly,
I cannot read Spanish, but if the article said Carlos twitter said what kind of aircraft was that military jet - it is a lie in the article. I have a snapshot of the twitter window - it is not there. I can share the file if you care )) The account existed from August of 2010 till the day after downing the plane. There is no guarantee it is legit, not fom me. I suspect that this way or another Carlos himself does not exist any more.

Bruce,
As for the history of downing passenger planes - well, both Ukraine and US military have recent history of that kind. Does it make them prime suspects then?

The last worth mentioning development wast that briefing by Russian military - with sat images and details of Ukrainian Buk-s movement chronology and radar activity. Plus the Su-25-s activity. Having one of them circle the crash site for 4 minutes is pretty interesting info.

The next development was the complete silence of US officials in response to it, apart from couple reports that the previous "we know who did it and have the proof" were baseless. Biased or not, it sounds like a cover up attempt - successful, BTW. Two more jets crashed within a week helped that too.

I will not speculate why US Govt does the cover up, I'm sure you can handle that yourself.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 31, 2014 - 04:14pm PT
i appreciate everyone's contributions


i think this discussion adequately demonstrates that we don't know much



i'd like to remind everyone that the best way to cover up the truth is to make the truth so outrageous that no one will believe it, and anyone with direct knowledge is considered delusional if they report what they know
WBraun

climber
Jul 31, 2014 - 05:12pm PT
USA is trying to frame Russia because of the dollar.

Israel is trying to cause distraction for their murdering of humanity.

It's all pretty simple.

Until the the aszhole disinfo pricks get into action ......
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Jul 31, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
It was a post in some Russian forum about a month ago, recirculated widely in light of the events discussed here. It reads something like:

'Soon a jet full of Euro tourists will be shot down above Eastern Ukraine and the event will be used to bring NATO into the region. I think so'

Does it give you the simple answer 'whodoneit'? The guy who done the post, right? People never do intelligent guesses, especially that wild?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 31, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
Wait.... post 445?

Holy Schit, now we're f*#ked for good!!!
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 31, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
Shot down by mistake. No conspiracy. Case closed. Now go climbing.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 31, 2014 - 05:57pm PT
have fun with this:

http://aanirfan.blogspot.com/2014/07/aids-researchers-killed-in-ukraine-air.html
crankster

Trad climber
Jul 31, 2014 - 06:52pm PT

Jul 31, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
Nobody said anything about a conspiracy except the nutcase crank nut.

You're a nutcase projectionist .....

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 1, 2014 - 08:57am PT
European markets were down sharply today largely due to fears of their
sanctions against Russia and the effect on jobs. Yes, the Portuguese bank
fiascos are weighing the markets down, too, but not as heavily as Ukraine.
Interestingly, Polish markets were the only ones in the black. I won't
speculate or make a joke about that.
overwatch

climber
Aug 1, 2014 - 09:50am PT
Just shake your leg, Mr. Braun, maybe he/she/it will fall off

Edit:
So clever you and your stupid little pictures...never much of any real import to say do you,"crankster" ? Right the f*#k back at you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 1, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
http://graphics.wsj.com/mh17-crash-map/
vlani

Trad climber
mountain view, ca
Aug 1, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
sat imagery and some words: http://www.strategic-culture.org/pview/2014/08/01/analysis-satellite-imagery-released-internet-security-service-ukraine-july-30-2014.html
The Ukrainian images must be provided by US, as Ukraine barely has means to produce it.

The most interesting part to me it this. Here is he Russian-provided image of two Ukrainian launchers and one armed vehicle of some sort guarding the crossing, just south of Zaroshchens'ke village,(google maps spelling), about 10 miles south of crash site. This is very close to rebel-controlled area. According to the Russian report, they were there only at the day when the plane was shot down.

This slide - and there is one more in the article - is presented by Ukrainians to show that there is no any Buks in there. The image is apparently taken several days later, and what it shows instead that that corner of the field where the Buk launchers were placed (the right one actually) is freshly plowed.

You are free to make your own speculations.

On 07.23 Ukrainian military reported death in combat of antiaircraft missile regiment commander lieutenant Vladimir Chernous.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 11, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Malaysian-press-charges-Uk-by-Alex-Lantier-Government-Corruption_Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-17_Putin_Russia-140809-576.html

A Thursday article in the New Straits Times, Malaysia's flagship English-language newspaper, charged the US- and European-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev with shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 in east Ukraine last month. Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state.

The US and European media have buried this remarkable report, which refutes the wave of allegations planted by the CIA in international media claiming that Russian president Vladimir Putin was responsible for the destruction of MH17, without presenting any evidence to back up this charge.

The New Straits Times article, titled "US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft," lays out evidence that Ukrainian fighter aircraft attacked the jetliner with first a missile, then with bursts of 30-millimeter machine gun fire from both sides of MH17. The Russian army has already presented detailed radar and satellite data showing a Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 fighter jet tailing MH17 shortly before the jetliner crashed. The Kiev regime denied that its fighters were airborne in the area, however.

The New Straits Times article began, "Intelligence analysts in the United States have already concluded that Malaysia flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it. This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a jet that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth."

It cited "experts who had said that the photographs of the blast fragmentation patterns on the fuselage of the airliner showed two distinct shapes -- the shredding pattern associated with a warhead packed with 'flechettes,' and the more uniform, round-type penetration holes consistent with that of cannon rounds."

The New Straits Times cited several sources to substantiate its position. One was testimony by a Canadian-Ukrainian monitor for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), Michael Bociurkiw -- one of the first investigators to arrive at the crash site. Speaking to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on July 29, Bociurkiw said: "There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machine gun fire; very, very strong machine gun fire."

Another source the paper cited was an article, "Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts," by former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry, who now writes for the ConsortiumNews.com web site. Given the lack of any evidence supporting US charges that pro-Russian forces shot MH17 down with a Buk anti-aircraft missile, Parry said, "some US intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault, and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings."

Perry indicated that sections of the US intelligence apparatus have concluded that US secretary of state John Kerry's claims that pro-Russian forces shot down the plane are lies.

"Only three days after the crash, Secretary of State Kerry did the rounds of the Sunday talk shows making what he deemed an 'extraordinary circumstantial' case supposedly proving that the rebels carried out the shoot-down with missiles provided by Russia. He acknowledged that the US government was 'not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible,'" Perry wrote. "By then, I was already being told that the US intelligence community lacked any satellite imagery supporting Kerry's allegations, and that the only Buk missile system in that part of Ukraine appeared to be under the control of the Ukrainian military."

Finally, the New Straits Times and Parry both cited retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko, who has pointed to photographic evidence of MH17 wreckage suggesting that cockpit panels were raked with heavy machine gun fire from both the port and starboard sides. "Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through the panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile," Parry wrote.

The New Straits Times report constitutes a powerful accusation not only against the Ukrainian government, but against Washington, Berlin, and their European allies. They installed the Kiev regime through a fascist-led putsch in February. They then deployed a series of intelligence operatives and Blackwater mercenaries who are closely coordinating the various fascist militias and National Guard units fighting for Kiev on the ground in east Ukraine, where MH17 was shot down.

These forces now stand accused not only of stoking an explosive political and military confrontation with Russia on its border with Ukraine over the MH17 crash, which threatens to erupt into nuclear war, but of provoking the confrontation through the cold-blooded murder of 298 people aboard MH17.

These charges from Malaysia are all the more significant, in that Malaysia is not a strategic adversary of the United States. Unlike Russia, which already presented evidence suggesting Ukrainian involvement in the crash, Malaysia has no political motive for trying to discredit the US, the European powers, or their puppet regime in Kiev.

While it has not aligned itself as openly as the Philippines or Vietnam with the US "pivot to Asia" aimed at isolating China, Malaysia has in fact pushed for deployments of its forces in the South China Sea to contest Chinese influence in the area, in line with the agenda of the US "pivot."

Indeed, the New Straits Times and its sources are basing themselves on sections of US intelligence that, disgruntled by the complete lack of evidence to back up US charges against Putin and fearing catastrophic military escalation, have criticized Washington's handling of the crisis (see: "Former US intelligence personnel challenge Obama to present evidence of Russian complicity in MH17 crash").
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
Complete tripe given the rebels shot down a Ukranian An-26 military transport flying just above 20K in mid-July - do you think they used slingshots for that one instead of a Buk?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:16pm PT
Crankster works in a theater...?
crankster

Trad climber
Aug 11, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Rj, I once had a friend who was a projectionist. Close as I got.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 22, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/enemies-ukraine-speak/

Our ‘Enemies’ in Ukraine Speak
2 days ago
Eric Zuesse
RINF Alternative News

America’s ‘news’ media do not let the victims of Ukraine’s civil war — the people who are dying and being driven out from the southeastern regions of that country by the new Ukrainian Government — speak, and tell their story. Scenes will therefore be posted below from an admittedly overlong amateur video from southeastern Ukraine, in which they have been allowed to tell their story. This is being done here since U.S. ‘news’ media apparently don’t consider it something that you would want to know, and since you should be allowed to judge for yourself whether it is or not, and to judge why it’s not being reported on the ‘news’ sources that our ‘democracy’ offers to ‘inform’ America’s public about public affairs. It is also being done because these still photos from the documentary summarize this over-long documentary’s important narrative. You are welcomed to click onto the link above to see the entire 82-minute documentary.
First, there will here be an introductory paragraph summary of the relevant background (not discussed in the documentary), if you want to know that: In February 2014, our State Department and CIA used ‘false flag,’ or engineered-so-as-to-be-misinterpreted, violence by our country’s paid Ukrainian agents, in order to exploit the ‘Maidan’ demonstrations in Kiev, the desire of Ukrainians for a less-corrupt government than existed in Ukraine, and than has existed in Ukraine ever since the fall of communism there. Our Government, the Obama Administration, paid masked gunmen there to dress as if they were from the State Security Force of the corrupt Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and to shoot at and murder not just policemen but anti-Yanukovych or ‘democracy’ demonstrators. (However, Yanukovych had, in fact, himself been democratically elected in 2010, and still was the democratically elected President.) (NOTE: The complete key phone-transcript whose audio is briefly heard excerpted there is printed here.) And our gunmen also threatened some members of the Ukrainian Parliament at gunpoint, and engineered their approval of an emergency replacement of Yanukovych’s government by one that was appointed by Obama’s agent, Victoria Nuland, and that was headed by Nuland’s friend “Yats,” Arseniy Yatsenyuk. This new government was filled with people who stated their desire to exterminate the people in Ukraine’s southeast, the people who had voted overwhelmingly for Yanukovych — to just get rid of them. Doing that would make Obama’s regime in Ukraine become permanent. Then, Ukraine held a ‘democratic’ election in which voters everywhere but in the southeast voted, and essentially the same coup-installed people remained in power. The billionaire oligarch Petro Poroshenko was elected as the President of ‘Ukraine’; and Victoria Nuland’s chosen leader, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, continued on as the new country’s Prime Minister. Yatsenyuk fired the previous Defense Minister and replaced him with Mikhail Koval, who on June 11th announced a program of ethnic cleansing in the southeast. This was actually a direct extension from the program that had already started with the extermination on May 2nd of hundreds of supporters of the previous government, who were trapped inside the Trade Unions Building in Odessa and burned alive there. This massacre was masterminded by people who were installed by the Obama Administration. That massacre started Ukraine’s civil war, by demonstrating to people throughout the southeast, that the newly Obama-installed Ukrainian Government wanted to kill them. It was now official policy throughout the southeastern portion of Ukraine, to kill the Obama-installed regime’s opponents. All of the residents there were being officially labelled by the Obama government as ‘terrorists,’ and their elimination was declared to be a patriotic necessity for Ukraine. However, this amateur documentary from Ukraine’s southeast — the video from which the scenes below are taken — presents the resulting civil war not from the Obama Government’s side, but from their regime’s victims’ side, which is hardly heard at all in the West.

Since this amateur documentary presents the unvarnished reality of an actual ethnic cleansing campaign in progress, corpses and parts of corpses are necessarily shown, and also bombed buildings are shown. There also are curse-words that are spoken by the victims. Censoring these things out would be a violation of the most basic requirements of honest journalism, and would be to cover-up the reality of an ethnic-cleansing campaign, merely because this reality is ugly — that would be a shameful thing to do, a fundamental violation of the journalistic standards of any democracy, and will not be done here, though it is routinely done by our ‘journalists.’

Whatever it is, is mass-theft, combined with mass-murder, combined with a super-scandalous cover-up by all but a half-dozen ‘news’ media in the West (each of which has only a small audience), so that even almost all ‘alternative news’ sites are part of the cover-up. But this site, fortunately, isn’t. It’s one of the few that are honest.

In fact, international aristocrats are raping our entire planet with impunity (such as by owning ‘news’ media and politicians), and are ‘trophy hunting’ and otherwise slaughtering not only rare species of animals, but also the human residents of southeastern Ukraine. To ‘bag’ a human or an expensive animal of any species is especially status-confirming to them. Their impunity is the mark of their ‘superiority’: Only they can commit crimes with impunity; so, the bigger the crime, the bigger the thrill it is for them.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 31, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
is apparently planning to collaborate with Monsanto to produce GM frost-resistant cocoa beans in Ukraine.

That is sooooo evil!!!

It would be much better if the farmers lost their crops and livelihood to frost.

More seriously there is no such thing as a non GMO domesticated plant or animal.

WBraun

climber
Aug 31, 2014 - 04:43pm PT
Hahaha .... stupid Americans

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 1, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
This is the first time that we hear what the new - post Strelkov - commanders have to say. This is the first time that the Novorussians are going on the offensive. And this is the first time that we get to hear the views, values and ideas of the people fighting against the Nazi junta.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/08/watershed-press-conference-by-top.html

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 8, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
MH17 damage photo

Pro-Russian rebels have denied any possession of a BUK.

However, photographs and videos cast doubt on the claim by the Kremlin and pro-Russian rebels - that they did not have a BUK missile launcher on their territory.

Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.

One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher roll off a low-loader at Snezhnoye, around ten miles from the crash site, at around 13:30 local time (10:30 GMT).

"We just saw it being offloaded and when the BUK started its engine the exhaust smoke filled the whole town square," he said.

'Pure Russian accents'
The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."

"They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.

In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.

A piece of the crashed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 lies in the village of Petropavlivka, Donetsk region, eastern Ukraine, on 23 July 2014
Investigators said the plane was hit by shrapnel from a fragmentation weapon such as a BUK
His testimony was confirmed by a second eyewitness, who added that an officer in a military jeep escorting the BUK spoke with a Muscovite accent.

If correct, the Kremlin has to explain to the relatives of the 298 passengers and crew who died - including ten Britons - why Russian military personnel were allegedly seen in the area escorting a BUK shortly before MH17 was shot down.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 8, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
HT, I'll bet you whatever that your pick isn't from MH 17. That looks like
a Russian/Ukrainian chopper fuselage to me.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 8, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
Reilly
if you're so certain, take it up with the BBC.
From the same article
MH-17 was 9M-MRD
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 8, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
I just might, they've been duped before. The reds are different. I seriously
doubt that a B777 would have un-painted skin (next to the red painted area).
And the first pic shows what looks like cannon/bullet holes not consistent
with a missile shootdown. The second pic is obviously legit.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Sep 8, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
Russian's shot down the airplane..f*#k'em!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Sep 8, 2014 - 06:55pm PT
The reds are different.
The shot up red looks scorched from the heat of the warhead blast wave.

I seriously doubt that a B777 would have un-painted skin (next to the red painted area).
more blast damage, scorching the white paint.

And the first pic shows what looks like cannon/bullet holes not consistent
with a missile shootdown.
What would you expect a missile shoot down to look like?

Depends on the missile warhead.
The BUK (SA-11) can carry a combined effects ( fragmentation - high explosive) warhead. Think of a mach 3, 70kg shotgun shell with radar proximity fuse throwing steel or tungsten rods (a couple of feet long) and ball bearings in a forward cone. Specifically designed to create exactly the kind of damage shown in the photo. Tear the crap out of the target. Disable all it's systems. Instantly destroy its airworthiness.

more than you need to know
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html
multiple independent sources more or less agree with this article.
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