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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:41pm PT
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Well, WHY? Why do you ask rhetorical questions about places historically awash in violence?
Its not a rhetorical question. If someone has an answer I'd like to hear why the gun control laws there have not stemmed the outrageous gun violence in one of the nation's most violent areas?
The correlation between gun deaths and private firearms ownership holds across nations.
You mean the gun deaths from high gun control ares like Chicago have driven the stats up so high that we'll never hope to catch up to countries like Austria ?
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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It has much to do with structural inequality.
the results of
https://www.soc.umn.edu/~uggen/Blau_ASR_82.pdf
imply that if there is a culture of violence, its roots are pronounced economic inequalities
how is that for a turd in your teabag soup? and no, I am not a Kenyan imperialist marxist
butt I may be a fly on sh#t.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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if there is a culture of violence, its roots are pronounced economic inequalities
Here we go again. At least you were game enough to offer some kind of an an answer---such as it is.
Then why hasn't gun control stopped this violence?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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So the GOP supports economic inequality and more gun ownership....makes perfect sense now. That is one way to deal with overpopulation.
You go, Georgia!
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Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal signed a new gun law Wednesday that greatly expands the number of public places where licensed owners are allowed to carry their weapons. Critics have called the law “extreme,” while the National Rifle Association lauded it as an “historic victory for the Second Amendment. What does the Safe Carry Protection Act really do? Here’s a brief list of the major changes ahead for Georgians when the law takes effect July 1:
1) Bars
Before the new law, gun owners were not allowed to bring their firearms into bars unless the bar owner specifically allowed it. But under the Safe Carry Protection Act, the emphasis is reversed. A patron can bring guns into bars unless the owner tells him or her to leave.
2) Churches
Church leaders will now be able to decide whether to allow their congregations to bring guns into their buildings. Right now, bringing guns into houses of worship is illegal. Under the Safe Carry Protection Act, if a gun license holder brings a gun into church against the wishes of that church’s leaders, the gun owner will be fined $100. If a non-license holder brings a gun to that same church, he or she will be guilty of a misdemeanor.
3) Schools
Local school boards will now be allowed to vote on whether they want to let teachers and other members of the school’s staff bring guns to campus. The staff members will apply to the school board, and they will go through training that includes “judgment pistol shooting,” “marksmanship,” and a review of Georgia’s laws about shooting people to defend yourself and others. If a teacher doesn’t want to carry the gun at all times, he or she will have to store it in a safe or lock box. Previously, a licensed owner could bring a gun to school if an “authorized official of the school” gave permission.
4) Airports
Licensed gun owners will be allowed to have firearms in airport common areas and if they accidentally bring their guns to airport security checkpoints, they will be allowed to pick up their weapon and leave without criminal penalty. They will not, of course, be able to take their gun past the TSA checkpoint, which remains a federal matter.
5) Government buildings
Licensed gun owners will be allowed to bring their weapons into unsecured government buildings -- in other words, those buildings that don't have security checkpoints or metal detectors. Supporters say this provision was intended to help rural counties that don't have the funds to hire full-time security personnel. Gun owners still won't be able to bring weapons into, say, Atlanta City Hall or the Georgia State Capitol.
6) No database of gun owners
The law will prevent the state of Georgia from creating and maintaining a database of licensed owners.
7) No fingerprinting
The law will eliminate the fingerprinting requirement for renewing weapons carry licenses.
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Why can't you bring them into the State Capital or City Hall?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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Why are you claiming that the laws have not "stemmed" gun violence?
Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation.
And yet:
Last weekend 8 murdered and 44 wounded.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 23, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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Show me one place where the violent crime rate is driven by "Teabagging gun nuts".
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ referring to the photos.
Attention gun control advocates: you'll have to do something about the tin foil hat commie totalitarians in your ranks if you expect to:
1) somehow have the 2nd amendment overturned or reinterpreted and reverse 200 years of precedent.
2) Convince enough people to enact Chicago-style gun control house by house ,city by city
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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they can easily get more elsewhere Like just across the border in Kentucky
Subject/Law Long Guns Handguns Relevant Statutes Notes
State permit to purchase? No No
Firearm registration? No No
"Assault weapon" law? No No
Magazine Capacity Restriction? No No
Owner license required? No No
Concealed Carry permits issued? No Yes KRS § 237.110
Open Carry? Yes Yes May carry openly without permit/license.
State preemption of local restrictions? Yes Yes KRS § 65.870 Exception: KRS § 237.115 allows the following entities to restrict concealed carry:
Postsecondary educational institutions
Any unit of government within the state in buildings that it owns, leases, or occupies – however, concealed carry is allowed in highway rest areas, public housing, and private dwellings
NFA weapons restricted? No No
Peaceable journey laws? No No
KRS § 237.104 prohibits the state from seizing firearms from private citizens in the event of a disaster or emergency.
Suppressors are legally transferable in Kentucky.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Kentucky
awww shucks in Kentucky you can't get a concealed carry permit for a long gun. Ya mean I can't slip my ole M1 down my pants leg? Guess I'll have to walk down main street with it over my shoulder like a Real Man. And my town can't ban firearms in the cowboy bar down by the stockyards where the cops have to break up a fight nearly every Saturday night. Nor the bar in the "ghetto" where the gang bangers shoot it out over drug deals.
Just makes me feel so durned safe in Kentucky
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
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can one imagine what the firearm murder rate in Chicago would be with looser gun laws?
what about New York CIty?
with the toughest gun control laws and very low per capita firearm murder rates?
Alaska, very high proportion of gun owners and very high per capita death by firearm
Massachusettes, very tight gun laws, low firearm murder rate
Chicago is an outlier with almost 3 million people, the rate of guns should be much higher,
Chicago's geographic pockets of gun violence correlate stronger to urban poverty centers
the entire "south", very loose gun laws, high rates of firearm deaths
the jury has been out of this for a long time now
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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And what were the numbers in your control group?
Insisting that one have a control group to simply state the fact and ask the question why Chicago ,with the strictest gun control ,has the highest level of violence of any city in the nation--- is a red herring.
Were double-blind controls conducted to justify the passing of these gun control laws?
Probably ---but they no doubt contained too much "proxy" data.
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John M
climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
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Johnyrig, sorry about your loss.
please note though that as a liberal I have never been for completely taking away guns.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
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I'm good with white people having all the guns we need, as long as it stays there.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
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Why are you claiming that the laws have not "stemmed" gun violence?
What is your control group?
Burden of proof is on you, brah!
In a (generally) free society, seems that the "burden of proof" should be on the ones who would like to restrict other's freedoms.
But that's just my non-statist viewpoint--I suppose others could say everything should be illegal unless the government deigns to allow some action. Sure that's not really consistent with the Constitution, but neither is excessive gun control, and that doesn't seem to slow some of you down too much.
Varying gun control laws by state does seem to be a good example of the "laboratories of democracy" expression used by U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. We've got something like that going on in Colo. with "legalized" (under state law, not not federal law) MJ. We'll see how it works out (pretty well so far, seem to be the mainstream consensus), and then other states can do what they want (provided the federal government doesn't come down on 'em, which it could at any time).
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jstan
climber
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
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Maybe three years ago one of Yvon's neighbors left the master bedroom when he heard a burglar
downstairs. The burglar was armed of course since owners are now presumed to have guns. Burglars
too need to be able to defend themselves.
Some statistics:
US shootings: 30/day, that comes to 11,000 per year
US violent crimes: 1,214,462 per year
Since everyone needs self defense, when guns are more prevalent more of those 1,214,462 violent crimes will
involve guns.
Presently less than 1% of all violent crimes involve the use of a gun.
Big room for increase here.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:39pm PT
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Gun laws have been tested by a hodgepodge of standards, but even if strict scrutiny (the most restrictive standard) is applied, most gun laws have still passed muster.
Strict scrutiny is a 3 part test:
The government must
a) show a compelling interest for the restriction
b) narrowly tailor its restriction to serve that interest and
c) use the least restrictive means to accomplish that
A useful thing to know when discussing gun laws. Keep in mind this is the most stringent standard in our jurisprudence. Many less stringent standards have been applied to uphold gun laws.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 23, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
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Most gun deaths are suicides (2/3), and 10% are accidents. Guns are the third leading cause of premature death in the United States - a number that is rapidly approaching vehicular accidents.
Most gun murders are people who know each other - primarily spouse, shooting each other.
More guns means more of the above...or is my logic somehow flawed?
Instances of Man Defending Castle are fantastically rare, even if such events capture both headlines and the imaginations of a certain proportion of our population. Every gun proponent can cite one - although very few of those personally know anyone involved in such an incident. Few of a cross section of the general population can, however.
In an interview with an armed witness of Gabby Giffords shooting, a highly trained, experienced concealed weapons carrier, admitted that he very nearly shot the man trying to protect her, thinking in the heat of the moment that he was the shooter. So much for 'stopping mass shootings by arming the population'. Given that half our population doesn't believe in the Big Bang - yeah...forgive my lack of confidence in my fellow citizen to do a job highly trained cops screw up on a regular basis.
Hmmm.
The question of why such a large percentage of our (overwhelmingly male) population spends so much time fantasizing about killing someone is an interesting question in its own right, although it rarely gets much air time before the yalling starts in public debates.
You'd think more women would join in (there is a huge gender gap with regards to support for gun control), given their far greater risk of assault, but they don't.
Hmmm. Maybe they're onto something.
Now I'm not suggesting that this issue is infused with a mountain of absolute bullshit or anything. I can't imagine that happening in this deliberative, truth seeking, peace loving nation of ours.
Arm everyone all the time. It's safer.
That makes perfect sense to me. That crazy guy that goes yelling up and down my street? Have a gun, buddy.
Of course, the government will monitor his mental state through backround checks...whoops! Strike that. And the monitoring such an individual to the degree required to predict his propensity for violence wouldn't violate his constitutional rights at all. Or should we monitor everyone? I guess we'd have to, wouldn't we? I see nothing that could go wrong there. Small price to pay to satisfy some Hero Fantasies. Hint: buy a shotgun for that, guys. Better for your neighbors, no gun control required. Or better yet - get a dog.
Eventually, we'll have the same low gun violence rates we enjoyed in certain Wild West towns, when the dream of ubiquitous guns was finally realized.
Perfect sense.
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