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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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From the wayback machine (yesterday afternoon)
JEleazarian
I guess they've become so selectively anarchic that they cheer anyone defying authority -- as long as he looks like one of them.
Raygun
1st inaugural
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem". The same president who violated a specific act of Congress and gave us Iran Contra. Cut taxes on those who could easily afford them; destroyed the air traffic controllers union; gave us "Raygunomics"; cut Medicaid and EPA budgets.
And oh yes, took Jimmy Carter's solar panels off the White House roof.
And spent $billion on that phantasmagoric wet dream Star Wars defense. No sane physicist at the time believed it would work. And they still don't. Great government feeding trough for the Military Industrial Complex ( a prescient phrase by the last intelligent and decent Republican president)
Over the years the predicate clause "In this present crisis" has conveniently been dropped and "government is the problem" has become the Conservative Mantra. Carried to its extreme conclusion there would be no government and there are plenty of right wing extremists in Congress who believe it. No republitard has EVER publicly rebutted this bizarre philosophy. Otherwise he'd have been tarred, feathered and run out of Dodge on a rail. Raygun remains the Godhead.
Why are we surprised that 33 years later Bundyites and "militias" refuse to obey Federal law?
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
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Sheriff Gillespie helped broker a deal to end the standoff Ron, you're flogging a dead horse. This is undisputed (at least by anyone who's paying attention).
There's plenty of reasonable discussion about whether this was a smart thing to do.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:46pm PT
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^^^
It's so damn secret they put in on the CNN!!
Lolz. New World Odor..smells like, VICTORY!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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I really didn't care for Reagan.
He really was a devil in disguise.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 30, 2014 - 12:53pm PT
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Sadly he is much preferable to today's righties who cater to those who have gone off the deep end.
At least William F Buckley understood the importance of keeping the kooks in their place.
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dirtbag
climber
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Apr 30, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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Dingus, Buckley was wrong about many things but the Republican Party of the 80s did not cater to the far right to the degree it does today.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 30, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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Ever watch Buckley's debates with Noam Chomsky? Really highlights just how far wacko the Right has become of late, and the loss of any kind of productive tone in political dialogue.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
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I think the dialog does so, Dingus, only when we're not really serious. I know that, for instance, my view of the world and that of Dr. F. aren't nearly as far apart as our posts might suggest. It's really more a matter of blowing off steam.
Catharsis does have therapeutic effect, however.
John
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Apr 30, 2014 - 03:58pm PT
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Wonder how these gun-strokin troglodytes would like armed militias harassing people in their towns
Asking their moms for proof of residency at gunpoint etc.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 30, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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This is my pet peeve about cops. They lie through their teeth.
Sad to say, BASE104, so do some prosecutors. While most prosecutors I've dealt with, like most cops I know, are basically honest, I found it particularly disillusioning to see more and more prosecutors seek "victory" rather than justice, and lie, cheat and distort to "win." To make matters worse, the pressure to do so seems to be growing.
I do have some advice on what legal theories to pursue if armed, unofficial, self-appointed "militia" threaten you. If they are not agents of a government, they have not violated the 4th and/or 14th Amendments. They have, however, committed a few juicy intentional torts such as false imprisonment, assault, battery (if they touch you) and intentional infliction of emotional distress. The ensuing entitlement to punitive damages should put a crimp or two in their style.
A couple of other caveats, though. As the eminent San Francisco collection firm of Cook, Perkiss says on its return address, "To win is nothing. To collect is everything." And I hope if you ever have an encounter with those crazies, that you, not your estate, does the collecting.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 30, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
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"I'm no lawyer, but I believe that I can refuse the search. "
I'd be quite curious about the legal structure around search refusal, and how to practically apply it.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 30, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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Who the hell drives around with a video camera all the time? Survival's video was obviously shot by someone with a fully-functioning video camera (used by another person in some examples)...not simply a phone...and trying to use a phone-video camera during such a stop would be very difficult to do.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 30, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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Unfortunately, the courts have upheld inland stops. More here:
https://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/fact-sheet-us-constitution-free-zone
From the link:
"But what is “the border”? According to the government, it is a 100-mile wide strip that wraps around the “external boundary” of the United States."
That strip includes 2/3rds of the US population.
The place to fight is in the courts and legislatures. The ACLU just got two state level voter suppression laws struck down this week. We can, and have been, winning victories in favor of a more healthy democracy - best to avoid the pointless shitshows the likes of which are happening in NV and go for lasting reform.
Think and act strategically.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 30, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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trying to use a phone-video camera during such a stop would be very difficult to do.
why does operating a phone in a running vehicle as the driver strike me as somehow illegal?
wait, not illegal use the camera but illegal to make a call right? unless hands free...
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 30, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
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Yeah, DMT, I know they are on phones...but trying to video that stuff while carrying on this effort seems implausible.
Those videos were shot by individuals who were seeking to challenge the detainment laws. No doubt they had rigged their cameras (&/or used specialized video equipment) to allow them to carry on that conversation without managing the equipment, or worse, creating some kind of supposed 'threat' to the officer (by not keeping hands visible, etc.)
I'm down with the idea of reasonable citizen pushback on detainments like this...just having a hard time imagining how to do it in everyday life.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Apr 30, 2014 - 05:22pm PT
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Metro Police Sgt. Jesse Roybal said today the department had received Horsford’s letter, was aware of complaints and allegations and were “investigating each report. As of this time, there are no criminal charges in any of these cases.”
See, no charges, don't get the cart ahead of the horse.
Unless it's Harry Ried, then he's guilty without charges.
LEB'ism lives.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 30, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
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you know what is so cool about SuperTopo?
that we have a broad range of people contributing to discussions, from all walks of life
we beat the hell out of every topic and each other
sometimes, some people might actually change their minds, or not
but they sure will have every assertion, every opinion, very well challenged
maybe we are like making sausage and politics, looks and can read ugly, but it "works"
just want to say thanks to all of you, you are smart and terrific
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 30, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
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Who's deleting their posts right now? Weird.
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