Rancher +Militia vs BLM,trouble on the range.(OT)

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Indianclimber3

Trad climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 11, 2014 - 04:38pm PT
This may get ugly
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/11/militias-head-nevada-ranchers-standoff-feds-were-n/
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
Nevatarded.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
Nevadastan. Utard. Youda'ho.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
If those stoopid militia zealots interfere and get tazed or shot then boo frickin hoo.
Urizen

Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 06:12pm PT
Doesn't this belong on on the "Where's Ron" thread?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
More Alex Jones nuttery for the feeble minded.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
I am sure Indianclimber, to her credit, is not up to speed, or more aptly
down to speed, with all the latest 'events' that have transpired here, let
alone all the impotent threads.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Reilly...Which important threads were you referring to...? rj
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
Fees are imposed on national park lands. Entrance fees. Some fees were tried for using national forest land and yes, climbers were against it. You have to pay a fee to use the national forest land around Sedona. Its called the red rock pass. You can complain about it. I have. I have no problem with this guy fighting these fees But his arguments are poor and so are his methods.

Its not whether this guy is against it or not. Its how he has gone about it. Blockading law enforcement is not a very good idea.

Most people complain about fishing licenses, but we still pay it. My own thought on fishing licenses is that their needs to be a national license, with the majority of the money going to the state it was bought in. This would mean you wouldn't have to buy licenses in every state you want to fish in. But that is another subject.

If this guy had a case, I am willing to bet that the Nevada Cattlemen's association would have come out for him. But they haven't.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
Who is profiting from climbing on BLM land? Grazing fees are just part of the business if you want to use public land for profit. And climbers impacts are inconsequential compared to grazing. Your comparison is retarded.

Red herring for dinner eh?

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
Nobody is this stupid right? I'm getting trolled? Hope so...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
The NPS charges for bivy permits.

Denali levies fees as well.



Truth is, if there were no motorized travel in the national parks then there would be no problem.

The NPS's problems are of their own making.
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
The NPS charges you to get into the park. Which means that you couldn't climb unless you pay that fee. So in essence they charge a fee to climb.

I didn't say anything about BLM land. I did not say anything about user fees on BLM land, though I believe you need a fishing license to fish on BLM land in California. If I am wrong, then I would love to be corrected. That would be a user fee.

There is a fee to use National forest land around Sedona. It is called the red rocks pass.

http://www.redrockcountry.org/passes-and-permits/index.shtml

John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
Anytime there's a P-Falcon Closure or any crag location gets shut down, the storm from this community begins.


No difference.

I have yet to see climbers calling in a militia, or blockading rangers from doing their jobs. Have you?
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
I have no problem with people filing lawsuits.

And as of 4 days ago the Nevada Cattlemen's association had stayed on the sidelines. There is a lot of money in cattle. If they thought this guy had a case… they would have come out much sooner. Now that the government is confiscating this guys cows, they are speaking up. But only to talk about the methods..

John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
Yes.. they aren't saying that the fees are illegal or wrong..
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
can anyone confirm for me that you need a fishing license on BLM land?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
Yes, but you don't need one to troll on supertopo.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
I've seen post after post on this forum, decrying the LEOs as "Jackbooted Thugs." Maybe because the rancher isn't "politically correct" by libtard standards, the LEOs are "doing the right thing?" I suspect the rancher is going to get fined here, since grazing fees (exceptionally low!) have been charged, but it could be in a historical perspective, no fees had been charged in the long term past. That sort of grazing sure as schitt isn't worth much. I'm going to guess that 50 acres constitutes an AUM (animal unit), if not more. That's the number of acres annually needed to feed one animal. By grazing the land, seed distribution is helped along, and a certain amount of natural fertilizer spread around (cow manure). I'm going to hazard a guess but the BLM probably wants $2.00/cow per month for that land, which even though it sounds cheap, ISN'T for what's there. The BLM has already spent a lot more than the grazing is worth to "enforce" their diktat.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
I would happily pay $1.35 per month (the current rate per cow) for unlimited food, water, lodging and access on federal land.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
There are absolutely NO access fees what so ever on any BLM land. NONE.

Wow! You ever hear of Red Rocks Nevada? You know, you wouldn't seem like such a stupid as#@&%e if you revealed your complete lack of understanding with a bit less authority.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Those that

Trespass against the vert

must die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_forest
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
The portion that requires an entry fee is a designated NEVADA STATE PARK.

Wow chuff, you never shy away from showing your ignorance, do you?

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad. The thing that gets me is... YOU HAVE A FUKING COMPUTER IN FRONT OF YOU, YET STILL SAY STUPID SH#T THAT IS 100% WRONG. Have you ever used google?
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
That NYT article is full of inaccuracies as usual.

From what I've gained, the rancher is perfectly willing to pay any taxes or fees to the "proper" authority entitled to them. The federal government has refused to allow the collection of any fees or taxes. I'm not sure why, but it has something to do with a b.s. excuse that there is some endangered turtle on the land that his cattle threaten. Meanwhile the feds pay to exterminate thousands of these "endangered" turtles because they can't contain the huge overpopulated number of them or something like that.

What I do know is the land in question isn't owned by the federal government, it's owned by the state, and the state isn't trying nor has ever tried to collect any fee or tax from the rancher who's been on that land since 1877, with the turtles mind you. The federal government won't allow nor is asking for any "fee" to be paid. Contrary to what the NYT article is stating. They just want the rancher off his land so they can seize control of it over the rightful owner (the state of Nevada) in what is no less than a power grab.

The Militias are what appears to be mostly a fabrication by the media. Yes there are people who are armed, but this is a bunch of ranchers in rural Nevada. I'm pretty sure they're always armed.

Looks like nothing more than another control grab by the feds over peoples rights to me. I can't blame the ranchers for being pissed off. I hope they stand their ground and send the feds back to Washington empty handed where they belong.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
The rancher has been over-grazing the desert for over 100 years. This Las Vegas Review Journal photo shows the great grazing conditions the rancher has created.


What is strange here-------- is all the right-wingers rushing to defend a law-breaking tax-cheat that has destroyed his own ecosystem.

I must suppose those are also their values?
John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
Does anyone know if all of Bundy's grazing rights were taken away, or just some? And how much. I can only find a story that says his grazing rights were modified and that he stopped paying all fees in 1993.

It would be nice to see the facts of the case. The number of inflammatory articles on the web is disheartening.

statements like.. the government showed up with no warning. It is clear that they warned this guy for many years. So that is nonsense. Even his own website has stories about the impending confiscation.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Yeah, the federal government is so desperate for land it is making illegal grabs of useless desert.
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:55pm PT
Does anyone know if all of Bundy's grazing rights were taken away, or just some? And how much. I can only find a story that says his grazing rights were modified and that he stopped paying all fees in 1993.

It would be nice to see the facts of the case. The number of inflammatory articles on the web is disheartening.

Here you go.

https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:56pm PT
All over a fuking tortoise...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Wow, wrong again there Ricki. Red Rocks has been BLM land for a long time.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Chief-Isn't that dude on the right Geronimo? ^^^^^^
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Apr 11, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
It would be nice to see the facts of the case. The number of inflammatory articles on the web is disheartening.

That deserves repeating.



I'm with you, I'll wait for the facts.
dit

Mountain climber
eastside
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
Hmmm, interesting. No access fees on ANY BLM land: Paria River- $5 per person $5 per dog per DAY! Coyote Buttes, same (or at least it was back in the day.) Fishing licenses are not required on ALL federal land, many national parks (including Mt Rainier) do not require such.

This guy is a flipped out anarchist that has been in contempt of court orders for almost 20 years. Want some facts. Read this.https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup

John M

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
Salamanizer.. can you back up your statements?

From what I've gained, the rancher is perfectly willing to pay any taxes or fees to the "proper" authority entitled to them. The federal government has refused to allow the collection of any fees or taxes. I'm not sure why, but it has something to do with a b.s. excuse that there is some endangered turtle on the land that his cattle threaten. Meanwhile the feds pay to exterminate thousands of these "endangered" turtles because they can't contain the huge overpopulated number of them or something like that.

And..

What I do know is the land in question isn't owned by the federal government, it's owned by the state

Because this goes against everything that I have read.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
Yeah, the federal government is engaged in hunting down turtles and killing them. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be involved with this forum!
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:05pm PT
The lessons from Ruby Ridge and Waco, TX should be learned by the feds. In both circumstances, overzealous and aggressive law enforcement further inflamed the antigovernment sentiment of these groups and lead to completely unnecessary bloodshed over serving warrants. If just a single local sheriff had showed up wearing shorts and flip flops, and shirtless to show that he was clearly not carrying a weapon nor showing intent of malice, the warrants could have been served without the ridiculous escalation of violence.

There are many ways to handle these type of circumstances; why does the government seem to favor extreme militancy as a first resort? Tarded indeed.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
It was still BLM land back then Ricki.

n 1967, the Secretary of the Interior designated Red Rock Canyon Recreation Lands to be managed by the BLM’s Las Vegas District, Nevada, for enjoyment by the public.

Do you ever get tired of being flat out wrong? Or do you just ignore reality and keep insisting you know what you are taking about... despite being shown over and over and over that you do not?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:06pm PT
Does anyone know if all of Bundy's grazing rights were taken away, or just some? And how much. I can only find a story that says his grazing rights were modified and that he stopped paying all fees in 1993.

Grazing rights are actually pretty weak. They're revokable at anytime.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:07pm PT

There are many ways to handle these type of circumstances; why does the government seem to favor extreme militancy as a first resort? Tarded indeed.

They gave him 20 years to comply and had to go to court before telling him to GTFO. Should they have waited 21 years?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:08pm PT
If someone with a lease on your property decided not to pay, would you allow them to squat for 20 years before calling the cops?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
why does the government seem to favor extreme militancy as a first resort?

Obvious answer.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
How about if you want to raise cows you buy land and raise cows? Seems reasonable to me.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Ricki, reread your statement real quick... it appears you forgot what you said.

There are absolutely NO access fees what so ever on any BLM land. NONE.

Red Rocks is BLM land.

There are fees to access BLM land in Red Rocks.

Red Rocks was NEVER a State Park.

You are wrong AGAIN... and AGAIN... and AGAIN.

It is truly pathetic to watch you make such bold, authoritative claims and then try to defend them with ignorant lie after ignorant lie.

Why not admit you were mistaken? That you are a blow hard? That you often don't know sh#t about sh#t? Only then can the healing begin.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
So what, Weschrist? What difference does it make? Who the hell cares?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
Too bad the IRS doesn't administer the BLM grazing biz.
Then we woulda seen some serious azz kicking! They woulda rounded up them
doggies and sold 'em off tout de suite.
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
BK -- "The day Chuff goes to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee hat in hand I'll eat my own hat!"

Maybe you should stop babbling endlessly first ....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
I've been payin' my taxes sos it doesn't happen to me - I fear only death and taxes, in that order, with taxes being the biggest fear.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
There are absolutely NO access fees what so ever on any BLM land. NONE.

Sorry I misunderstood what you meant by that. Have a nice night.

And you have a PhD!

Yes, and you don't.

And there are plenty of other BLM areas that have fees.

So what, Weschrist? What difference does it make? Who the hell cares?

Well, when you are interested in the truth of matters, pointing out ignorance, hyperbole, and hubris can help separate the chaff from the valid arguments.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
This f*#king place is a sh#t show.

Blueballs and his right wing malita freak nuts bulls sh#t rant gets his ass handed to him last night by Bruce and has not been seen since.

The guy is getting so beat up on and Bruce is making it look so f*#king easy that he has to go make a thread that borders on inappropriate, mean spirited and ugly. Literally toww seconds after Bruce dropped his last bomb on Blueballs this ne thread pops up and Blue disappears.

Chief shows up 27 beers deep into a 30 pack first thing this morning and decides to pick it right where he left off and take Blues beating for him.

Cheif can you tell us one more time how this is all about a bunch of god dam tortoises lol ;)

Seems to be what you keep turning back to when you got nothing to say cuz someone just handed you your balls on a platter.

WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
With a nutcase Canadian ranting endlessly on the sidelines .....
Sanskara

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
No need to come up with anything original as you never had anything that held an ounce of water to begin with.

Everyone here has explained to you countless time ps right side up upside down and still you go on. You do a great job reinforcing the general publics long held belief that you right wing militia types climging to the second amendment are nothing but a bunch of f*#king metal cases!



Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:42pm PT
Putting bad behavior on all sides away for a moment, can someone tell me what legal right of occupancy the rancher is claiming?

Thanks,
g
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
It's great that some-----of you Fox-News loving conservatives are so fired-up about allowing this tax-dodging, fee-dodging, and court-order dodging rancher to destroy public lands by over-grazing his illegal cows.


Is this your vision for America?

(I've been predicting the old-bastard will win, but not if some gun-nut starts killing BLM Rangers.)

fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:52pm PT
A cemetery??

KYS assfu ck
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
There's a good reason they are know as right wingNUTS.
Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
Cliven Bundy is the last rancher operating in Clark County, where he’s been grazing his cattle on a 600,000 acre portion of land managed by the BLM called Gold Butte. His family, whose ties to the land go back to the 1880s, has been engaged in a dispute since 1993 with the Bureau of Land Management over long-established cattle-grazing rights.

Is the rancher asserting he has the right to use land he does not own without paying for that right?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
Be interesting to see what mowadlibtards like ANTICHRISTWES would do if them ARMED FED LEO's showed up on his 1/10th of acre plot of cave land and ordered his sorry PHD ass to leave immediately cus it has been their land all along.

That is your honest interpretation of the situation? So, once again, you admit you ARE that stupid.

FWIW, we had the cops show up around Christmas time because a neighbor reported us for cutting down a tree that wasn't on our property. I was sh#t faced at the time, our neighbor's dog was barking wildly at the cop, and our dog was super psyched to meet the stranger in blue. I explained that we had a permit, took the tree off the appropriate land (FS), and our neighbor is crazy. The cop agreed, played with my dog a little, and apologized for any inconvenience.

Cops aren't bad people. Free loaders who poach federal land are.

Maybe they should just move their cattle to Arlington... looks like much greener pastures.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
Gotta love how it is all "America, love it or leave it" and "Freedom Fries" and "USA USA USA" when a Repugnikunt is in power... but when a Dem gets a hold of the exact same machine the only answer is an armed revolution.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
Not to mention if that Dem happen be African American..

Oh yes this has nothing to do with guns rac or anything else of the sort.

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/03/11/rush-limbaugh-admits-republicans-refuse-work-obama-black.html

All you right wingers have flown off your rockers the last six years making your voice so loud as you are all threatened. Threatened simply by the color of a mans skin. In your simple misguided little minds you feel you for some reason are supposed be better than if simply and if only on account of the pigmentation off your stupid skin and because your sick ass parents probably raised you up such a way.


Gene

climber
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:46pm PT
Something to do with an agreement that was made back in the the early 1900's with the state & federal govt and the "The Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916". The original family consisted of over 46 families in the Bundy clan that settled the area in the late 1880's when it was all "open range".

Wiki says:
The Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916 provided settlers 640 acres (260 ha) of public land—a full section or its equivalent—for ranching purposes. Unlike the Homestead Act of 1862 or the Enlarged Homestead Act of 1909, land homesteaded under the 1916 act separated surface rights from subsurface rights, resulting in what later became known as split estates.[1] The subsurface rights, also known as mineral rights, are the foundation of recent oil and gas law in the United States.[1]
Under the act no cultivation of lands was required, but some range improvements were mandated as necessary.[citation needed]

OK. The 600,000 acres in controversy are 937.5 sections or squares. 20 square miles per family in the clan. Cool. If the rancher and his clan acquired clear title to the land through the Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916, why is it now BLM land? How’d that happen? Did BLM acquire it through eminent domain? That would have required ’just compensation’ as mandated by the Constitution. Did BLM shred the docs? Did the rancher and clan ever get fee title?

Rancher hasn’t paid rent since when, 1993? What was the arrangement prior to that? Not being argumentative, just trying to understand the story behind the hysteria.

g
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Agreed Cheif

for once.

The BLM is on very shaky legal ground in the first place. Those grazing rights were granted under FDR. It's still in court and the BLM is jumping the gun bigtime.. it's happened before.

But this time I think it's gonna cost them.

The media is doing a terrible job explaining the ranchers rights.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
Both incidents were declared total failures by the ensuing investigations on the part of the Federal agencies involved that handled them the way they did.

Psst also declared total failure by the idiots that got their asses handed to them and fu ckin died for their delusional beliefs and batsh*t crazy behavior
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 11, 2014 - 11:59pm PT
What happened in the election of '94?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:04am PT
Ruby Ridge/Waco; code for "I'm an extremist nut job".
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:06am PT
You guys forget how quickly the feds coordinated the shutdown nationwide of the occupy movement. here for a few months and then GONE in a few days.. hmm..Once the decision was made and peices in place..boom.. lotta heads got beat pretty fast in that one.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:10am PT
Lock up the crazy rancher and any nut job militia wacko who gets in the way.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:14am PT
sick of hearing about 'Waco' and 'Ruby'

what about this this sh*t f*#kers?


yeah that's what I thought...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:14am PT
While I am no fan of the ridiculous political support the right wing militia types give to republicons.. I am in admiration of one thing they have gotten correct.

America is no longer the land of the free. It's not even in the top 100. It is a police state on par with China or Russia.

Its sad they have no idea why this is but I admire their determination to stand up.

Wanna know why his nation is a mess.

It's a corporate state that only represents the interest of wealth. Our politicians have more sponsors than NASCAR.

Your vote means nothing as the deck is stacked long before you go to the polls.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:26am PT
Basically Bundy is insisting that the Feds honor their contract.

There is some other legal stuff involved from the FDR administration too Cheif..Basically Bundy has a lot of legal ground to stand on.. and the BLM has circumvented the court system as I understand it. They seem to figure that if they act first and destroy him then it's harder for the courts to reverse the siuation since what is done is done.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:31am PT
McVeigh, an American militia movement sympathizer who was a Gulf War veteran, had detonated an explosive-filled Ryder rental truck parked in front of the building. McVeigh's co-conspirator, Terry Nichols, had assisted in the bomb preparation. Motivated by his hatred of the federal government and angered by what he perceived as its mishandling of the 1993 Waco siege and the Ruby Ridge incident in 1992, McVeigh timed his attack to coincide with the second anniversary of the deadly fire that ended the siege at Waco.

Siding with terrorists...you disgust me.

Oh but all those innocent victims totally deserved it for what the faultless Branch Davidians and the poor misunderstood white supremacist gun nuts endured at the hands of the evil law enforcement agencies.

Fu ck off KYS
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:32am PT
Yep we better shut down Vegas..According to BLM logic.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:40am PT
Once again, let me show what a wonderful steward of the public land, the lying old tax-cheater has been.



Here's a summary of this tax-cheater's right-wing history: https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup


It was the tortoise that kicked off the saga in 1993, when the BLM modified the terms of Bundy’s Bunkerville grazing allotment to protect the animal after it was listed as threatened under the Endangered Species Act.

Bundy refused to comply with the new terms, so the BLM cancelled his permit to no effect.

In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment.

Bundy rejected the offer.

In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction.

Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations.

In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.

Sigh.

The shisthead Mormon Rancher is still likely going to get away with all this, but no-one I respect is supporting him.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:45am PT
Bundy rejected the offer.

Thus no contract was entered and bundy maintains his original contract rights.

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:46am PT
Lock him up.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:46am PT
The government should just sell that land, Fritz. Then it would be someone else's problem. What use does the government have with all that scrub desert?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:52am PT
So what we have here is a truly complex legal issue and the BLM jumping the gun before any final court decisions.

It's almost like some corporate executive is running the BLM.. ie lets do this action, then once it's screwed up too far to fix we let the courts decide. Plus it's not like we will get fined for taking action against Bundy.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 12:59am PT
Yeah: Great land there for Chaz & The Chief!

Maybe you could buy it on "the cheap" when the Republicans sell off all those illegal Federal lands, and then you could starve some more cattle on it, like your new hero Bundy.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Not paying rent isn't a felony. It's not even a misdemeanor.

It's a civil matter. Not a criminal case.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Just stated that some folks have had enough of the FEDS strong arming the small time American citizen.

To the extent that they massacred innocent civilians (including many children) in 'retaliation' for the deaths/prosecution of 'small time American citizens who just happened to be engaged in unlawful acts of open aggression against their government.

Those people were determied to die, to advance their own twisted agendas.

You'd fit right in maybe you should join up and get your ticket punched by an agent. We'll all be real proud.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:19am PT
"Those people were determied to die, to advance their own twisted agendas. "


Blame the victims, Fluffy. Be consistent.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:30am PT
Blame the victims, Fluffy. Be consistent.

You think Koresh et.al were victims? Bullsh*t

Actions have consequences.

Comparing these maniacs to the innocent people at the federal center puts you in the same corner as the chief. Not a good place to be.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:31am PT
Mr Kay,

I'd go with the cops. Keep my mouth shut. And call my lawyer when I got to jail.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:34am PT
A local rural Barney fud leo is NOT the Federal Gov't.

This was a Forest Service cop... just like those were BLM cops. All part of Obama's army. The only difference is... I wasn't breaking the law, I haven't refused to pay any required fees since 1990, and I acted appropriately. In other words, I was a functioning part of the society I live in rather than an anti-government extremist throwing a childish temper tantrum after breaking the law.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:34am PT
Fluffy writes:

"Actions have consequences."



Like what actions? Wishing to be left alone?

Wanting to be left alone seems to irritate the government worse than anything else you can do.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:57am PT
Here's a bit earlier picture of the situation from back in March.

“Tell them Bundy’s ready,” the rancher said by phone Tuesday from his home near Bunkerville. “Whenever they’ve got the guts to try it, tell them to come.”

The last time federal authorities laid plans to remove Bundy’s rogue livestock, in April 2012, it ended with veiled threats of violence and a hastily canceled roundup.

Good ol'Merkin anarchy... woot woot!

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nevada/bunkerville-rancher-vows-resist-federal-roundup-his-cattle
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:04am PT
Like what actions? Wishing to be left alone?

An over-simplification at best. Not my job to educate you on what the Davidians and Weavers were doing to attract the attention of federal agencies.

But you might want to ask yourself why 99.9999% of the people who 'just wish to be left alone' don't get into violent shoot outs with law enforcement.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:09am PT
I would also like to just be left alone. However not paying ones taxes is one of the first ways just about any sane person can guarantee they will not be left alone.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:13am PT
When Bundy's grazing rights were modified by BLM in 1993, it was in part to protect the species, which inhabits the same publicly-owned desert areas trodden by Bundy's cattle and was at the time on the brink of extinction.

In 1993, Bundy began refusing to pay grazing fees required by the new rules imposed on him by the new BLM agreement.

Damn it, Nixon fuked us all in the ass again with his endangered species act!


I was sh#t faced at the time...

Blue, dark green, whatever... I was 6 nogs to the wind. He was FS because we talked about the fact that I used to work there.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:18am PT
No chuff, I admit, it might not have been blue. I could very well have made a mistake. I'm man enough to admit that.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:22am PT
If you want to be left alone, then pay what you owe people.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:23am PT
MeChrist now I'm confused, I didn't think you were a dude?

Or do you just post pictures of women under your photos so your climbing post a get actual attention.

Kidding kidding although there is some truth to that idea. If I get the boot I'm coming back as a hot climber chick ;)

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:23am PT
Enough nogs to argue with your stupid ass.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:25am PT


The BLM is on very shaky legal ground in the first place. Those grazing rights were granted under FDR. It's still in court and the BLM is jumping the gun bigtime.. it's happened before.

Wrong. They are granted a revocable license to graze their cattle on federal land.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:34am PT
Sorry Mr. Landlord I didn't have my rent $$$ the past couple months and I lost my job and don't know where I'm getting it next month

Well I'm sorry to hear that sir but you gotta pay your rent. If not I'll have no choice but to go get a court order and a summons and have your ass removed..
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:37am PT
You realize they are talking about over 600,000 acres of federal land... and the SRHA allotted less than 640 acres per homesteader. We know how you feel about numbers, but think about it for a minute...
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:50am PT
There was an in depth article by Malcolm Gladwell two weeks ago in the New Yorker about the Waco siege.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2014/03/31/140331fa_fact_gladwell

I also read over the summary in wikipedia about Ruby Ridge, which I thought was fairly objective.

I really feel that these issues were mishandled terribly and tragically by law enforcement. The senseless deaths could have been prevented.

Seeing the video of the current Nevada conflict looks like history could repeat itself. The emotions are high, the Fed LEOs tend to bulldoze against resistance instead of finding a reasonable way to negotiate and de-escalate the tensions. Further resentment simmers, then blowback occurs and another Oklahoma bombing results. Further pressure is placed to the government to deal with lawless "sovereign citizens", and the government does so by being even more militarized and belligerent in the next conflict, repeating the cycle.

I bet if there had been a good negotiator, perhaps an non-LEO based one, or perhaps a trusted LOCAL sheriff or rancher or small town mayor or respected neighbor, these conflicts might have been handled peacefully with simple citations and weapons confiscations and reasonable jail time, instead of what happened.


mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:54am PT
46 families that were already settled in the area with 2-3 potential Head of Households/Entrymen per family be that number.

Hmmm, interesting. So take those 46 families and give them... fuk it... give them 10 heads of households EACH. That is still shy of 300,000 acres... HALF of the land in question... AT MOST... if there were 10 heads of households per family (unit of measure, not mine)!

Oh, but you say 2-3 potential head of households... so under 90,000 acres, 15% of the land in question.

That is OUR BLM land... land where there are absolutely NO access fees what so ever. NONE. And probably some state park land mixed in there somewhere.
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:56am PT

Not according the agreement the feds made with them under the The Stock-Raising Homestead Act of 1916.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock-Raising_Homestead_Act


That has been the Bundy Ranch families defense since this all began in the spring of 1993 all over the Nevada Tortoise.

that was his contention, which he lost in federal court.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:57am PT
more than once
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:03am PT
So what are you going to do?

Kill someone over some beef that's not even a criminal matter, but just a civil case?

Kill someone over a non-violent property disagreement?
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:07am PT
Also, as I recall mainstream media portrayed both protagonists in Waco and Ruby Ridge in a very dismissive light: religious wackos and racist white supremacists. By this biased stigma, it was very easy for ambivalent Americans to dismiss them as lunatics and cheer on the FBI snipers in Idaho and the tanks terrorizing the Koresh compound.

The same thing could happen to any number of other marginalized, unusual or eccentric groups out there. A Sikh community in the Central Valley or a Vegan "intentional community" commune, and yes you by your dirtbag mobile chilling with your friends post climb...

While I am supportive of law enforcement in general, there is a balance of being fair and not abusing power. Some of us have witnessed some egregious abuses of that power, and that can quickly flip one from being a mainstream supporter to being more empathetic with the "fringe elements."
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:11am PT
I agree that the federal government needs to use restraint in their actions, but how long should this go on? This has been going on for 20 years? What should the government do? The courts have said the Bundy's have lost their case. So what now? Just ignore the court?

John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:12am PT
Not a fking peep from you ecofreaks about that.

That is patently false and ignorant.
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:21am PT
It isn't suddenly now. The man has been taken to court multiple times to try and get him to come into compliance. It appears to me that the feds have been bending over backwards to try and work with this man, even though the courts have sided with the feds multiple times. And now the mans time is up.
John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:24am PT
Chief, there is a difference between land set aside for blowing up things, and land set aside as a preserve. Was the land that was set aside for a preserve really needed as a preserve? I have no idea. The courts have sided against this man multiple times. and I tend to believe that he doesn't have a case because up until the feds started removing his cattle, the nevada cattlemen's association hasn't sided with this guy. He didn't have a case. But now that public sympathy can be brought in, they are complaining. So they knew all along the man didn't have a case. If he had a case, then they would have been hollering about it years ago. If it was a strong case they probably would have helped with lawyers and such.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:13am PT
John M: It isn't suddenly now. The man has been taken to court multiple times to try and get him to come into compliance. It appears to me that the feds have been bending over backwards to try and work with this man, even though the courts have sided with the feds multiple times. And now the man's time is up.

Exactly, he had all due process, his days in court, and yet still not yielding in the matter - in fact, he says he doesn’t recognize federal authority over state land - i.e, he's a complete whackjob and the feds have had enough. They've stepped in to being the matter to a close once and for all. Again, he doesn't have a single legal or constitutional leg to stand on. Period. Anyone claiming to the contrary is ignorant or misinformed.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Be sure to bitch about it and ask for militia support when your car gets towed 20 years later.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:40am PT
Find another hero, right wingers. Don't hitch your wagons (or SUV) to this idiot.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:42am PT
For those wondering: why are cops needed here in the first place?

Over the years, the Department of Justice has more than once canceled BLM plans to round up the trespass cattle after blatant threats of violence from Bundy and his supporters, says Alan O’Neill, retired superintendent of the Lake Mead National Recreation Area adjacent to the allotment.

...

As Rob Mrowka, Las Vegas office of the Center for Biological Diversity senior scientist who has endured threats from Bundy and his supporters via email



https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup




Anyone here ever not pay their rent to a landlord?

What happened?

Did the dispute last 20 years?

I think it's funny how people here scream the Feds are being unreasonable, after enduring 20 years of going round and round legally with that delusional mooch.

. In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment. Bundy rejected the offer. In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction. Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations. In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.

"It's my land"--it was never his fooking land. Maybe he believes in fairies and pixies . Should we indulge that too?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:43am PT
Find another hero, right wingers. Don't hitch your wagons to this idiot

Bingo.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:46am PT
This is all about the Feds flexing so the 99% stays quiet while the 1% takes more of the resources.

amazing how many of you defend the Feds who rape and pillage the land, then charge you out the ass to climb and recreate on YOUR public land.

What is it to climb for a day in the Valley now? $20 25? Edward Abby I'm sure would be proud of you lining the Feds pockets to enter your land.

The Chinese will own vast tracts of BLM land and once they ask for payment of US debt. Ranchers will be writing checks in Yen in 20 years.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:48am PT
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on Supertopo:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/preemption.htm
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:51am PT
the Chinese will own vast tracts of BLM land and once they ask for payment of US debt. Ranchers will be writing checks in Yen in 20 years.

Oh noes!
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:01am PT
The Chinese currency is yuan. The Japanese currency is Yen.
I believe both will prefer to be paid in dollars.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:14am PT
For now. The 1% will pay whatever to whomever to keep power.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:18am PT
There were several other agreements made along the way between the FEDS and Bundy's. Most of which were done prior to 1912. It is all in the suite filed by Bundy.

Lots of land was already owned by previous purchases and Homestead Acts that were current back in 1888.

so it was the Homestead Act... until someone shows it it would be impossible for Bundy to acquire that much land through the Homestead Act... then it were several other agreements... and it is all clearly laid out in the suite filed by Bundy, which was turned down numerous times.

Hey Chaz, did you read the one about the BLM agents who went to get the cattle off THEIR land, only to leave hastily due to threats of violence. Yeah, what are they going to do with those peaceful protestors simply exercising their 1st amendment right they think gives them the right to make threats using the 2nd?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:30am PT
[quote]rmuir wrote:

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on Supertopo:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/preemption.htm[/quote]

Supremacy Clause:
Hmmmm.
In light of that law, or clause, it appears we have massive civil disobedience to federal drug laws going on in Colorado, Washington state and many others.
I don't imagine there will be a need for drug militias as the feds are too overwhelmed on this front.

We might consider repealing most immigration laws as the feds seem to be overwhelmed on the immigration front as well.

Maybe there's just too many federal laws on the books. Who can keep track?


Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Nothing to see here, just another right-winger leaching off the taxpayer.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:57am PT
bets on when the idiots forming the militia fire the first shots? This is going to be ugly. leaching retard redneck rancher and supports are not going to win this one. and yes... if this leech is your hero... well... get a new one. Superman is a better option.
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:05am PT
Mr Bundy should make his all American claim he's protecting the American way.

He's protecting the American hamburger from danger.

Without the cows on the American land the hamburger will go extinct.

Without hamburger all Americans will go crazy and revolt.

Thus he's on a noble mission to save Americans.

(rolls eyes) ......
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Think of the childreeeeerrrr..... all the people that eat hamburgers!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:12pm PT
Is this the real Ron..? rj
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 12, 2014 - 01:24pm PT
Welcome back Ron.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Ron, what you've explained makes more sense than anything else I've read. Thanks.
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
Seems like the BLM has decided to back down in order to avoid a bloodbath. Maybe the Occupy protesters should have been armed?

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2014/apr/12/citing-safety-concerns-blm-calls-cattle-roundup/
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
God, Guns and Cattle made the American west.
in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
This is the 21st century in case some haven't noticed.

Presumably we are more law respecting than the Mormons who slaughtered the Fancher party 75 or so miles up the road, just about the time Bundy's Mormon ancestors were "settling" his land.
Or shall we go back to the Wild Wild West? Where the gun decided who was right. Even Clint Eastwood's movie Unforgiven questions the outcome of that way of life.

Bundy has had his due process. Let his supporters pitch in for a good old legal battle in the appeals courts. Maybe they can even get to the Supreme Court where there's a convenient right wing majority right now.
At the present time they are guilty of open armed insurrection against the US Government.
What other supposedly aggrieved parties should have that right?

Gotta love the inevitable fracking conspiracy theories. So why aren't these wahoos out with their AR15s blockading the exploration and drilling rigs?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
oh crap
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
And I still say that this is due to gray wolves.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:47pm PT
Not one single white person would be living in the west getting their "states rights"on without the heavy federal intervention that went down.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
If this white cowboy and the BLM were replaced by a Tibetan herder and the ChiCom's,

what would the hypocrites that are crying for his extermination say?


Ron's explanation is right on the money.

I've seen first hand the well fields and infrastructure that have sucked valleys north of Reno dry leaving behind nothing but dry as a bone desert and abandoned homes and ranches.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Here is a map of all the well fields north of Reno:

http://www.nbmg.unr.edu/lists/oil/map_color.jpg

Oh, and the water? It mostly comes from that godless, communist republic to the west.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
You don't know what the well symbols are, obviously. Almost all of those wells are dry holes.

The only commercial oil production in Nevada worth mentioning is that cluster in Railroad Valley. There was a well there that at one time was one of the highest producing oil wells in the entire country.

It is a small accumulation, and there are a ton of dry holes around the few small fields.

Also, oil wells have nothing to do with fresh water. Zip. Water is a nuisance in the oil business.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
I do know the symbols. My point was there are no fields north of Reno.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:11pm PT
OK. Post the symbols up and put written descriptions next to them.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
This battle between the government and the settlers has been going on since the first pioneers pushed through the Cumberland Gap in defiance of the British colonial government, and has been both antagonistic and symbiotic ever since.

Hopefully, this will spark some special interest articles and documentaries discussing the issues involved and maybe just maybe, the feds will start respecting local opinion more. They have a long history of asking people to settle in those desolate places, indeed rewarding them to do so, and then going back on their contracts and treaties. Maybe even, some of the white folks including the rednecks, will get a glimpse of how the Native Americans felt when this happened.

And it was God, guns and guts that made the West great. Farmers came first, cattle only later.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:23pm PT
Base you are awesome but I am not going to tell you what you already know.

Jan, local opinion would not exist had the federal government not paved the way. The notion that any settlor would have succeeded without a massive federal military and infrastructure investment is absurd. People out scratching away in the desert complaining about the government is ridiculous.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 05:55pm PT
Looked at another way, the United States as a continental country and a world power would not have existed either, if not for the brave pioneers who heeded the government's call to settle the West. Every time our leaders "project power" on the world stage for the bankers back East and the 1 %, they are doing so on the legacy of the small people who founded the West and gained all those resources for them.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
^^^^yep.
Todd Townsend

Social climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
So apparently it's still the wild west in Nevada. All you need is for your buddies to show up with their guns...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20140412/us--range-showdown/?utm_hp_ref=homepage&ir=homepage
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Jim, my consistent theme that runs from the Sherpas to Okinawa to the settlers of the Old West is defense of the small people and the powerless against outside moneyed interests. And yes of course, that includes the Native Americans as well.

All sides in the settling of the old West were caught up in movements that were larger than themselves that they didn't understand. There was needess brutality by both sides, and the outcome was determined by superior technology only. Those who won were not more daring or brave or ferocious than those they defeated.

It's also a fact that a lot of the animosity that developed between American colonists and Natives was the result of French, British, and yes, Canadian meddling. Read about the Native Americans employed by the British and French Canadians to attack New England and the Midwest during the French and Indian War and later the American Revolution. At one point in time, the British even paid Natives for American scalps.

Right or wrong however, history has happened, yet the feds are still sending out the cavalry whether in Nevada or the Pine Ridge Reservation. Being surprised by the local reaction however, it now seems they are going to round up bank accounts instead of cows, which would have been the smart solution to begin with.


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
Well now!

(Yes I know that is a deep subject).

I got onto this strange thread a little slowly last night, and did not get around to posting my prediction about the outcome of this clusterfuk, until post #88. (I had the same prediction for the outcome in post #4 in the competing thread on ST).



Apr 11, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
It's great that some-----of you Fox-News loving conservatives are so fired-up about allowing this tax-dodging, fee-dodging, and court-order dodging rancher to destroy public lands by over-grazing his illegal cows.


Is this your vision for America?

(I've been predicting the old-bastard will win, but not if some gun-nut starts killing BLM Rangers.)


Posting here with the right-wingers was a gud!! substitute for the Friday Night Posting While Drunk thread.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
BLM halts seizure of Nevada rancher's cattle, citing safety concerns

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-nevada-rancher-blm-20140412,0,1159016.story#axzz2yiYZ49vQ


Mr. Cliven Bundy (any relation to Ted?) has apparently lost at least twice in court already.

Don't be sur-prized to see an order attaching his bank account (do Nevadans still use banks?) and a lien on his property soon.




http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2383234&tn=280#msg2385271
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
It sounds like a bunch of the gun toting kooks have showed up to have their pictures taken by the FBI.

Tim McVeigh was there protesting during the Waco siege. His name doesn't go down very well around here.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
Well right or wrong, I personally find it refreshing that finally there are some Americans riled up enough about something to protest, rather than remain apathetic as they have been since the 1960's.

A new slogan perhaps? - My protest right or wrong.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:34pm PT
Ed Abby had an opinion about cattle on public lands that I lean towards, but don't fully endorse:

“Overgrazing is much too weak a term. Most of the public lands in the West, and especially in the Southwest, are what you might call “cowburnt.” Almost anywhere and everywhere you go in the American West you find hordes of these ugly, clumsy, stupid, bawling, stinking, fly-covered, sh#t-smeared, disease-spreading brutes. They are a pest and a plague. They pollute our springs and streams and rivers. They infest our canyons, valleys, meadows, and forests. They graze off the native bluestem and grama and bunch grasses, leaving behind jungles of prickly pear. They trample down the native forbs and shrubs and cacti. They spread the exotic cheatgrass, the Russian thistle, and the crested wheat grass. Weeds.

“I… suggest that we open a hunting season on range cattle. I realize that beef cattle will not make sporting prey at first. Like all domesticated animals (including most humans), beef cattle are slow, stupid, and awkward. But the breed will improve if hunted regularly. And as the number of cattle is reduced, other and far more useful, beautiful, and interesting animals will return to the range lands and will increase.”

(From “Free Speech: The Cowboy and His Cow,” 1985.)


Thanks to the below website!

Read more: http://coyot.es/crossing/2014/04/11/ed-abbey-on-cliven-bundy/#ixzz2yinqR5DP

John M

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
Well right or wrong, I personally find it refreshing that finally there are some Americans riled up enough about something to protest, rather than remain apathetic as they have been since the 1960's.

did you forget the occupy movement? did you forget the marches against the Iraq war?

So today the feds released all 400 head of cattle that they confiscated, proving that they didn't kill any of them nor did they use backhoes to bury them. Something those people in the videos were screaming about.


with these people its just one lie after another.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Parasols at High Noon?

Why don't we all just blame the Brits and call it a day?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
Why did the settlers need guns?

-To hunt for food
-To defend against animals
-To defend against Indians-
-To defend against a lot of bad white guys who headed out West, especially after the Civil War
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
If Nevada upsets you so,, please feel free to stay the hell out. Leave our crags, our cities and towns alone.

Sweet! Does this mean we won't be seeing you in Woodfords anytime soon, since we all know how bad California upsets you?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
Jim, I had to mumble my way through the pledge of allegiance and the Lord's prayer in public schools in Texas without anything so pleasing as the young Queen Elizabeth to look at. As far as anthems go, at least yours is easier to sing.

However, I still can't understand if you have your own constitution now, why the Queen is still on your stamps and money?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Bravo Ron for the tour de force explanation and opinion. Base, as he often is, is wrong, there are other producing oil fields past and present in the state and virtually the whole state is staked by mega mining companies.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:18pm PT
Well at least the Brits didn't steal the Canadian sense of humor!

I'm rolling in the aisles here.

But I wonder if Robin William sang that song before or after John Belushi decided to invade Canada for being too orderly and clean?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
As for the Indians, God and guns. They had the Great Spirit which carries a lot less baggage and they got guns as soon as they could.

To push all buttons while I'm at it, I did read something very interesting from an old Inuit/Eskimo who told researchers that wolves did use to kill a lot of Inuit and Indians until they got guns and then the wolves learned to fear them and left them alone.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
Not so fast.

You're the smart ones who sent free wolves to Wyoming and Montana.



Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
Ya know, leadership in the States is pretty poor. Get young William on the throne with some bad azz leadership and maybe we Yanks will sign back on to the kingdom (just for fun, we'd still keep our guns).
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
I could go for Princess Kate on our money. She's better looking than a buffalo.
jstan

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:49pm PT
Nevada ranching family claims victory as U.S. government releases cattle
BY JENNIFER DOBNER
BUNKERVILLE, Nevada Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:16pm EDT

(Reuters) - U.S. officials ended a stand-off with hundreds of armed protesters in the Nevada desert on Saturday, calling off the government's roundup of cattle it said were illegally grazing on federal land and giving about 300 animals back to the rancher who owned them.

The dispute less than 80 miles northeast of Las Vegas between rancher Cliven Bundy and the U.S. Bureau of Land Management had simmered for days. Bundy had stopped paying fees for grazing his cattle on the government land and officials said he had ignored court orders.

Anti-government groups, right-wing politicians and gun-rights activists camped around Bundy's ranch to support him, in a standoff that tapped into long-simmering anger in Nevada and other Western states, where vast tracts of land are owned and governed by federal agencies.

The bureau had called in a team of armed rangers to Nevada to seize the 1,000 head of cattle on Saturday but backed down in the interests of safety.

"Based on information about conditions on the ground and in consultation with law enforcement, we have made a decision to conclude the cattle gather because of our serious concern about the safety of employees and members of the public," the bureau's director, Neil Kornze, said in a statement.

The protesters, who at the height of the standoff numbered about 1,000, met the news with applause. Then they quickly advanced on the metal pens where the cattle confiscated earlier in the week were being held.

After consultations with the rancher's family, the bureau decided to release the cattle it had rounded up, and the crowd began to disperse.

"This is what I prayed for," said Margaret Houston, one of Bundy's sisters. "We are so proud of the American people for being here with us and standing with us."

A number of Bundy's supporters, who included militia members from California, Idaho and other states, dressed in camouflage and carried rifles and sidearms. During the stand-off, some chanted "open that gate" and "free the people."

A man who identified himself as Scott, 43, said he had traveled from Idaho along with two fellow militia members to support Bundy.

"If we don't show up everywhere, there is no reason to show up anywhere," said the man, dressed in camouflage pants and a black flak jacket crouched behind a concrete highway barrier, holding an AR-15 rifle. "I'm ready to pull the trigger if fired upon," Scott said.

LONG-SIMMERING ANGER

The dispute between Bundy and federal land managers began in 1993 when he stopped paying monthly fees of about $1.35 per cow-calf pair to graze public lands that are also home to imperiled animals such as the Mojave Desert tortoise. The government also claims Bundy has ignored cancellation of his grazing leases and defied federal court orders to remove his cattle.

"We won the battle," said Ammon Bundy, one of the rancher's sons.

Hundreds of Bundy supporters, some heavily armed, had camped on the road leading to his ranch in a high desert spotted with sagebrush and mesquite trees. Some held signs reading "Americans united against government thugs," while others were calling the rally the "Battle of Bunkerville," a reference to a American Revolutionary War battle of Bunker Hill in Boston.

The large crowd at one point blocked all traffic on Interstate 15. Later, as lanes opened up, motorists honked to support the demonstrators and gave them a thumbs-up sign.

In an interview prior to the bureau's announcement, Bundy said he was impressed by the level of support he had received.

"I'm excited that we are really fighting for our freedom. We've been losing it for a long time," Bundy said.

An official with an environmental group that had notified the government it would sue unless federal land managers sought to protect tortoises on the grazing allotment used by Bundy's cattle expressed outrage at the end of the cattle roundup.

"The sovereign militias are ruling the day," said Rob Mrowka, senior scientist with the Center for Biological Diversity. "Now that this precedent has been set and they're emboldened by the government's capitulation, what's to stop them from applying the same tactics and threats elsewhere?"

Roger Taylor, retired district manager with the Bureau of Land Management in Arizona, also said the agency's decision to release the cattle will have repercussions.

"The (agency) is going to be in a worse situation where they will have a much more difficult time getting those cattle off the land and getting Bundy in compliance with regulations," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/13/us-usa-ranchers-nevada-idUSBREA3B03Q20140413


zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
Wounded Knee 1891


If you're an artist, you can draw your own conclusions

Wounded Knee 1973


During the 71 day occupation, two AIM supporters were killed and a deputy marshal wounded.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
And it was God, guns and guts that made the West great. Farmers came first, cattle only later
Jan, I'm surprised you're the only one who caught my deliberately leaving out the farmers and sheep ranchers.
All that's left now is God, Guns and Cattle.

And the environmental desolation caused by overgrazing. It's rather ironic that the cattlemen blamed the sheep for denuding the landscape, eating all the good feed and pissing in the creeks and ponds. Now there are only cattle (with a few high mountain sheep exceptions) has the landscape recovered?
NOPE.
Have you ever hiked or camped in an area where range cattle graze? I have, many times. It's not very pretty, especially near water. Have you compared it to land that has been subsequently fenced off to keep the cattle out? There has been some very good work done on the problem of reclaiming cattle land by the Southwest Research Institute in Albuquerque.

You try running up a $300K tax bill and see if you get to keep your house, car, cattle, etc. You're even likely to lose your wife/husband. Try not paying your landlord the rent.
And what about all the Republitards who're bitching about uncollected taxes? Inefficient Gummint Burrocracy they call it.

I say give all the gun-totin' protesters 2 hours to get outta Dodge with their weapons and then have the Army Engineers over to build a fence around Bundy, his pals AND his cattle. Take down the fence when the bill has been paid AND the cattle have all been sent to the abattoir.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
Looks like the desert lost, fuuuck he was just some redneck Moron.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
Dingy Harry Reid and his cronies lost.

Not the desert.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 12, 2014 - 09:59pm PT
Base, as he often is, is wrong, there are other producing oil fields past and present in the state and virtually the whole state is staked by mega mining companies.

Where are these fields, Rick?

Perhaps you don't remember that I have access to data on every well drilled in the U.S. since about 1930. I download it in a matter of minutes and import it into my work software. It is pretty pricey.

Nevada is mainly a hard rock mining province, true, but I never said otherwise. I said that it isn't very interesting from a petroleum point of view. I've discussed it with other geologists, and have been aware of Railroad Valley for decades.

Go ahead and try to refute me. I am pretty tolerant of different viewpoints, but I tired of you and The Chief long ago.

Again. This situation seems like an eery phantom of the Waco incident, in the fact that it brought some real nut cases out of the shadows. One of them was Tim McVeigh. He would fit in well with the videos I have seen of the "Patriot" gun movement.

My wife and toddler son were only 9 blocks from the Murrah building when McVeigh's bomb went off. I have no sympathy for these types.
WBraun

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:04pm PT
What would rock climbers do?

Throw rocks ..... ?????
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:06pm PT
The Fed LEO's were wise to pull back and let the domestic terrorists and other wacko's dance around and howl. That Bundy dude is in for some administrative/civil trouble come Monday morning. He's had.

Maybe I want to go camping out there with my family. Is Bundy and Co. gonna try and kick me off with his band of armed skinhead thugs from Idaho in black flack jackets?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:09pm PT
High Traverse, that's definitely an innovative solution.

What I would hope is that this will start a dialogue about the issues of land use in the West. As water becomes more and more scarce, there are bound to be more conflicts.

I think what outsiders fail to grasp however, which does now seem to be coming to light, is how angry the descendants of the pioneers who still have a hard struggle to survive, feel at outside interference from people who sacrifice nothing. When the folks in Los Vegas and LA give up their swimming pools and green grass, then the old time ranchers will be more sympathetic to arguments about the environment.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:10pm PT
Thanks for your input BASE.

When I heard this was about petroleum I was skeptical. Hard rock minerals... sure. Hydrothermal... maybe. But enough petroleum in Nevada to justify this kind of land swoggle? Far more likely to be a crotchety old rancher who is pissed he can't freeload on public lands anymore... taking advantage of the small minded idiots willing to start a civil war at the drop of a hat.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:12pm PT
The Bureau of Land Management, whose director was Sen. Harry Reid’s (D-Nev.) former senior adviser, has purged documents from its web site stating that the agency wants Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s cattle off of the land his family has worked for over 140 years in order to make way for solar panel power stations. -



xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
What a crock. I watched the story unfold over the last two days. I watched the climax and end of the standoff via live feed for over three hours today. The BLM didn't end anything. They lost control of the standoff against a pile of unarmed civilians and having no legal right to even be there backed off because their armed threats to open fire on the crowd fell on deaf ears. Clark County sheriff had the only power to do anything, and he intervened at the end to avoid a slaughter and uphold the ranchers legal right to keep his cattle on the grazing land.

Almost a total media blackout. 8 Billion dollar contract to ENN not going to happen. Media will have to work very hard to cover this up. Many armed people got turned around while on their way to fix the BLM and their armed takeover attempt.

The biased information out there right now is far from what I watched live.

Burly Bob
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
What a great load of unsupported sh#t there TGT. You never cease to disappoint.

Clark County sheriff had the only power to do anything, and he intervened at the end to avoid a slaughter and uphold the ranchers legal right to keep his cattle on the grazing land.

Sorry bud, but it ain't within the sheriff's jurisdiction to uphold grazing rights on BLM land. But don't let the truth get in the way of your opinion!
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:17pm PT
Look deeper Mechrist, he is spot on by what I watched today. Documents are already available on line.

Burly Bob
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
descendants of the pioneers who still have a hard struggle to survive

My Great-grandparents homesteaded legitimately, but lost in court against the railroad (how could an ordinary family win?) I think it's a lot more complicated. Did the Bundy family have a homestead?

If it's a federal reserve or federal land, all Americans are owed something by someone who profits off of that land.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
Ain't so. I know from expurience. County sheriff don't do sh#t about illegal grazing. And they shur as sh#t don't enforce grazing rights on federal land that have been been struck down twice in court.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:29pm PT
how angry the descendants of the pioneers who still have a hard struggle to survive, feel at outside interference from people who sacrifice nothing
Lovely romantic notion of the West. Having lived out here most of my life, most of it in rural areas, I know the vast majority of ranchers are like the rest of us. Work hard, pay their taxes, pay their bills, obey the law, complain at the pub and vote in elections.
When they get really worked up they write letters to the newspaper, perhaps even go to the county commission meeting (I've done that a couple of times) or write their Senator/Congressman (I've done that many times) or go to their legislator's town hall meeting (been there and done that too).
Bundy is just a tax dodging anti-democratic nutcase. He's had his day in court, had about 15 years to put it right and to exercise his freedom of speech.
He is a criminal masquerading as a Freedom Hero. I wouldn't be surprised if Clark County or the Justice Dept have put out a warrant for his arrest.

Do you feel safer now that the "militia" wackos have stared down the Law?
I don't THINK so.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:30pm PT
Just as a matter of fact and for the record; the Sheriff of any County is THE senior LEO present, and the Feds KNOW that. He could arrest them at the drop of a hat. When the Sheriff (not a Deputy) showed up, the game was over. If the Sheriff tells them to leave, they leave.
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Sheriff has the only power of arrest in this case. He has all the power over the BLM if their actions are iillegal and in his jurisdiction.

You may want to take a minute and do some sniffing around.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
If Mr. Bundy has the correct advice, he will seek redress in the United States Court of claims, and not in District Court.

There's a very good book on this very topic: "Storm over Rangelands," written by Wayne Hage, who had a similar case involving his grazing and water rights on homesteaded land. He won his case in the Court of Claims, but would have lost in District Court. Later on, his wife was Helen Cheneweth, the U.S. Congresswoman from Idaho. He had excellent advice on what to do.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
Burley Bob-

The Sheriff can also issue an order to "cease and desist" any activity that could prove injurious to a resident of his county. I happen to know my present Sheriff very well, and I've been advised of that fact by THE MAN.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
Bruce-

Since all we have is second and third hand information, we don't know what advice he's had.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
Sheriff has the only power of arrest in this case. He has all the power over the BLM if their actions are iillegal and in his jurisdiction.

Yeah, but that isn't what you said chief. You said

Clark County sheriff had the only power to do anything, and he intervened at the end to avoid a slaughter and uphold the ranchers legal right to keep his cattle on the grazing land.

Which is simply wrong, as I pointed out. If yall would stop hyperbolizing every fuking aspect of every fuking story and stay at least somewhat consistent with your claims you might find you have a tad more support. As it is you all look like a bunch of headless sociopaths running around looking for any possible excuse to fight the power, often changing your claims hour by hour. If you are going to start a revolution you might want to put a little more thought into it. Yall act like teenage anarchists... with way worse music... and far too eager to spill blood.

So far I've read wingnuts claiming: 1) it is legally Bundy's land (all 600,000 acres), 2) it is state land, 3) it was Bundy's land that the BLM stole from him (but two courts disagree), 4) the Feds are stealing the land for endangered tortoises, no wait 5) oil... what, no oil... I mean 6) minerals. And now the local sheriff is "upholding the rancher's legal right" to graze his cattle on federal land... against multiple court orders, which kinda destroys the whole "legal right" part.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:46pm PT
A succinct summary of the US Gov't position:
"We remain disappointed that Cliven Bundy continues to not comply with the same laws that 16,000 public lands ranchers do every year," said the BLM director in the release. "After 20 years and multiple court orders to remove the trespass cattle, Mr. Bundy owes the American taxpayers in excess of $1 million. The BLM will continue to work to resolve the matter administratively and judicially."
Credit: Salt Lake Tribune
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57810957-78/amp-cattle-bundy-blm.html.csp
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
But...but...doesn't everyone LOVE Big Brother?

George Orwell, 1984.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 12, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
Bundy and his fellow violent far right wing extremists win round 1. See ya in court, traitor.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:02pm PT
The point most here have no knowledge of, is the content and phraseology in the Homestead acts; which most lawyers don't, either. If Bundy's land was ever homesteaded, and he is the heir or assign thereto, there's absolutely NO way his title can be denied or set aside. Going into the law completely illustrates that the land cannot even be assessed property taxes! I suspect that Mr. Bundy will ultimately prevail in court, and the United States Court of Claims will uphold him if homesteaded land is involved.

To whom are you addressing as traitor?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:04pm PT
I think there are two separate issues here. One is the specific case of Bundy and the other is the anger and distrust of a large segment of the public, especially out West and in the South, toward our supposedly democratic government. I'm beginning to think there are not just red states and blue states but a red nation and a blue nation within our supposedly one nation.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:06pm PT
brokedown, are you suggesting Bundy owns all 600,000 acres in question? Very doubtful. I'm sure he owns some... but that isn't the point. He has been illegally grazing his cattle on federal land, not his land, and has not been paying the appropriate fees... because he is a freeloading teabagger anarchist.
Madbolter

Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
Brokedownclimber

All over a fuking tortoise...

Maybe. Maybe not.

http://appalachianareanews.com/busted-bundy-ranch-siege-really-about-harry-reid-backed-solar-power-stations/
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
Brokedown: There is much I want to say on this thread, but since you bring this up!

Later on, his wife was Helen Cheneweth, the U.S. Congresswoman from Idaho. He had excellent advice on what to do.


I have found it interesting that Miz Cheneweth, whose entire political career, was based on opposing Government regulations: died because she had not fastened her seat-belt.

On October 2, 2006, Chenoweth-Hage was killed after being thrown from the passenger seat of a sport utility vehicle that overturned on an isolated highway in central Nevada, near Tonopah. She was not wearing a seatbelt and was thrown from the car. Her (step) daughter-in-law and grandson, who were also in the vehicle, suffered only minor injuries.[16]

Nearly poetic justice.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
As I understand it Bundy had some of his grazing rights revoked and then stopped paying grazing fees on all of it, which was his mistake. Don't forget they got Al Capone on tax evasion, not bootlegging or murder.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
The answer there is: who TF knows how much land he owns? He's a member of the LDS church with huge families, and some of that land earlier was sold by the section for next to nothing. a section is 640 acres, by the way I don't know what the price was but it could have been as low as 5 cents an acre. I do recall when I was at the University in Laramie in the 1960s, Alcoa bought up hundreds of sections with Alumina ore (Bauxite) at $25,000 a section and everyone thought they were insane to pay that much for $0.50 an acre land!
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:17pm PT

The various homestead acts provided for transfer of title in fee of lands to individuals under certain circumstances. None of those acts allowed more than taking more than quarter of a section and none required payment of grazing fees after transfer of title. If Mr. Bundy has title to lands he can easily prove it.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
It would be one thing if Bundy offered his beef at a discount well below what normal ranchers who pay the fees. If Bundy's beef is at full market price, haul him to jail for ripping off the American people. If Bundy cut the price to exclude costs for property taxes, permit fees, mortgage, etc. like everyone else pays, I'd be first in line for his welfare range-fed beef.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
If he has the land via the Homestead Act then he's got a deed. Even if he can't find it, it was recorded when it was granted.
I'm pretty sure the largest piece of land granted under the Homestead Act (actually there were several) was 640 acres. One section. And that wasn't until 1904.
I doubt there is any Homestead Act issue here.

Bundy claims his rights devolve from his Mormon ancestors.
Bundy claims his ancestors worked the land long before the BLM was formed, giving him rights that predate federal involvement.
From the preceding SLTribune article.

The Mormons founded the town of Mesquite (next to Bunkerville) in 1880. Bunkerville was founded as a cooperative community in 1877 but that experiment ended in 1880.

From the March 27 Bunkerville town meeting minutes:
COMMENT: Representatives from the BLM or NPS had advised earlier in the week they would not attend. Janice provided the phone numbers for Senator Reed and Congressman Heller and suggested that everyone call to let them know this round up issue is a problem. At a minimum it is disrespectful that they did not come to the meeting tonight to let you know what is going on. Ryan Bundy stated they don’t agree that the Federal Government controls the land the cattle are on, that should be State land. He said they have used the land since 1887, and they will resist any attempt by the BLM to take their cattle. Some Board members expressed concern that the land would remain closed after the cattle were removed.

No mention of "this round up issue" in any previous meeting back as far as August.
They had another big public safety/nuisance problem then.
Issues surrounding Bunkerville 4th of July water fight – discussion and possible action. Duane said the water fight is getting out of hand and people are being water blasted that do not want to participate. It has become a free for all.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
Bruce, I really don't know. I'm still trying to figure it all out. It sure isn't how people thought in Japan!

Part of it was that we were so naive and propagandized by the government before, that when we began to see how things really work, we swung too far in the opposite direction, seeing conspiracies everywhere and becoming overly cynical?

Or the fact that the average person doesn't get as much benefit from the government as other citizens of modern democracies do, yet we have as much or more bureaucracy and regulation as the others.

Or maybe just too much change too fast?

or maybe just too many grumpy old baby boomers?

I don't know.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
Taxpayer-subsidized grazing isn't a benefit?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:44pm PT
Well Base, the Pine valley fields immediately come to mind as well Elko county and its big bet by Noble Energy.
Risk

Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
I sure don’t blame the people out there who are squatting on public land from resisting having to move to the city and either get a real job or stand in line like everyone else for a free handout. After all, who would want to give up their free “public assistance” public land grazing to grow very profitable cattle when the Las Vegas welfare line is what’s next? I’ve heard of welfare ranching, but this is the “American Rip-off Ranching Corp.” I’ll bet Walmart is involved.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
I just tried to check the BLM GLO website to see how much homesteaded land anyone in Nevada named Bundy owned, but their site is not working. Normally you can see a photocopy of the original title and often times the original survey plat. I wonder if the site has been hacked ??
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
New Nevada Lands LLC is one of the largest private land owners in NV. They own ~500,000 acres. How likely is it that the 600,000 acres Bundy has been using for decades actually belongs to him? At 640 acres per homesteader, he would have had to consolidate nearly 1000 individual homesteads. Ranchers don't do that... they use public lands for a fee.

Answer: it ain't his land... he was grazing his cattle illegally... he owes over $1 million in past grazing fees plus fines... he is a criminal willing to use violence and anti-government extremists to get what he wants.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:54pm PT
As someone who HAS ranched (I'm retired from that now!), I can assure you that Cliven Bundy wasn't getting rich on his marginal operation.

Until recently cattle prices (realized by the ranchers) were abysmally low; a yearling steer would bring the rancher ~ $850.00, and a 6 month old calf would bring $600. In order to achieve these prices for a yearling, it meant winter feeding the animal hay and dietary supplements. It takes roughly 1.5 tons of good quality hay per animal, which costs $350.00. Add in veterinary expenses, hauling, and statistical losses to mortality, maintenance of a mother cow to have the calf, cost of artificial insemination or keeping a bull, and the "profits" were either non-existent or "negative."

A yearling steer needs to be raised on pasture or grass for ~ 4-5 months before going to a feedlot for 75-90 days, depending upon the grade of beef required (Prime takes longer than choice which takes longer than what you usually get at Vons, Safeway, etc.) Figure $500-$600 for this.

This results in a 1400 pound animal at slaughter. Figure 45% of the live animal as "edible portions." Price per pound, cut and boned: $2.30. About 25% of this will result in hamburger and the rest as steaks, roasts, and other premium cuts.

Contrast all this with the price for that T-bone steak. The feeders and processors make a TON of money, as do the supermarket chains and meat markets. The rancher gets fukked.

I did the "ranching thing" for 15 years, until my wife became terminally ill and I got old. It was a good life...as long as I had a job to support my cows.

So, yeah, I have some sympathy for Mr. Bundy, but question some of his decisions that landed him in the schitt.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 12, 2014 - 11:55pm PT
Who said he was getting rich? He was grazing his cattle illegally. Not an entirely uncommon practice for ranchers. If you steal something and don't get rich selling it, does it mean you shouldn't be held responsible for the original crime?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:00am PT
He stole something? What'd he steal?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:11am PT
Broke only reinforces what so many already know. Beef is one of the most wasteful food sources pound for pound of food and water fed vrs actually edible food rendered.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:43am PT
Lots of questions here!

I know lots of ranchers, and in a way they're a lot like climbers. To those looking in from the outside, we as climbers seem pretty strange critters. They just can't understand why we "do it." Ditto the ranchers I've known; it's a very rewarding lifestyle in it's own way. There's the romantic view of maintaining the pioneering spirit, of being close to the land. Most of the ones I know aren't THAT motivated by money, just as long as they "get by." Add to that...change in lifestyle is very difficult, especially for someone in his 60s.

A lot of the problems we have these days are media induced. Anything for a story, and the truth gets lost along the way. The media also seems to have an agenda, which I believe is improper. Then we have knee-jerk liberals, and we have knee-jerk rednecks. Resulting in a slanderfest here on Super Topo.

I tried to stay away from this thread, but it kept getting closer and closer to my lifestyle and too much uninformed BS was flying around, so I began posting. But for now, I've said my piece, and going to bed.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:02am PT
Actually beef is a great source of high quality protein, since it converts something we can't eat(grass) into something we can eat: beef. There's a lot of land out there that can be grazed and has very little other use than solar farms. My place at it's greatest was 1742 acres. I've since sold off over 1000 acres to pay my ex-wife's nursing home expenses, saving the taxpayer a bunch of money since she's not on Medicaid. I was able to run ~ 100 mother cows under normal conditions in the summer, but didn't have enough hay production to winter that many.

A few lucky tacos were able to sample my home grown hamburger at Facelift a couple years ago. They uniformly agreed that "Beef, it's what's for dinner."
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:16am PT
You are right Chaz, he didn't really steal anything... just trespassed and vandalized public property.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:19am PT
That put's him in the same boat as an illegal alien.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:26am PT
^^^^
Maybe he can get welfare and free medical aid?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:27am PT
http://twitter.com/WalshFreedom/status/455046687170371584

Don't worry guys. Joe Walsh is on scene so I'm sure this will all be wrapped up pretty quickly.



How nice of him to show up after the BLM had already capitulated.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:47am PT
Don't worry guys. Joe Walsh is on scene so I'm sure this will all be wrapped up pretty quickly.

Dude, read the comments on your link! :-)
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Devide and conquer, appeal to mythologies, prejudices and illusion.


I've seen a lot of that in Colorado too. The result is that the town where I grew up is nothing but a by pass and service outlet now for the 1% in Aspen and Vail, while the elderly have to move 200 miles away because they can't afford to live there anymore.

When I question why the rickety bridge can't be replaced with a bypass that would save the town from all the traffic and smog, or why there can't be zoning laws to prevent people building outrageously large and garish clashing buildings next to each other, or why second, third, and fourth homes can't be taxed at a higher rate so the locals don't pay for all the new facilities built for the 50 week a year empty houses, all I get is some rhetoric about individualism and free enterprise.

At least a few of the richer ranchers there have deeded their lands to the Nature Conservancy so that a few green spaces will be preserved. Their children write nostalgic books like "The Last Cowboys of the Roaring Fork Valley" which features friends and relatives of mine, while a way of life dies to rich outsiders and a beautiful valley becomes a 40 mile long subdivision. That's progress in the new West I guess.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:00am PT
Can someone tell me when the definition of the word "patriot" changed to "someone who doesn't want to pay taxes." ?


Since the original Bosten Tea Party maybe?
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:09am PT
^^^^^

+ 10000!

Maybe when the Bush Administration rammed through the highly intrusive "Patriot Act?" Violates so many of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights, that it boggles the mind. When "our" government waterboards people and suspends the Writ of Habeas Corpus? Maybe when the Obama Administration never closed Guantanamo as claimed in campaign promises? Maybe when we're still in Afghanistan because of the Opium deals?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:15am PT
Well now that you mention it Bruce, I have to admit that I couldn't wait to get away from those cowboys and see the world. Only in retrospect could I appreciate them. As for self preservation, my life has always been about adventure, not financial progress. If I had been into self preservation, I would have stayed at home, gone to law school and worked for the 1%.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:55am PT
We're all pussies ompared to our ancestors, particularly those who founded the Old West.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:59am PT
Just haul the tax cheat to court. When his domestic terrorist posse show lock them up.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:01am PT
As true today as 2000 years ago in Rome; when a Senator was killed, or some other unexplained action took place, the question was "Que Bene?"
Who benefits?! The real reasons can usually be found by a simple "follow the money." Based on these recent revelations, seems that Harry Reid may have his dick in the Cuisinart?

As for the money involved, the ~ 350 cattle "impounded" (euthanized) by the BLM have an approximate market value of $560,000. That's by my calculation, based on current market prices for mature mother cows of $1,600 each. There was undoubtedly a loss of all the calves who ran off to hide, as well...figure 300 of them at todays market value of $800 each, or another $240,000. There are some high powered law firms already rubbing their hands together in anticipation of lawsuits against the BLM (in the United States Court of Claims) for this loss to the Bundys, and punitive damages as well. Not to mention possible charges of Assault and Battery against specific BLM Rangers for their tazing of Bundy's son, and pushing a 57 year old female cancer survivor to the ground.

Yeah, these cases wouldn't go anywhere in U.S. District Court, but in the Court of Claims, they will.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Chuff? Do you understand what "mitigation" means?

In the case of solar installations where there would be some minor, yet unavoidable impacts to tortoise (habitat mostly, rather than actual animals as projects in DT habitat will have biologists walk transects and identify active burrows prior to starting any construction), mitigation likely means relocation of animals to suitable habitat, possible enhancement of that habitat through vegetation, and possibly building tortoise fence adjacent to roadways.

What you posted there makes ZERO indication that the land in question is for placing solar farms, it indicates it would be used to offset some of the impact from placing those solar installations elsewhere. Got it! NICE!

I know this because I once planned that mitigation and walked those transects as a biological monitor for Caltrans. If you look at the bottom of the right-of-way fences along many stretches of the 15 or 40 that go through designated DT habitat, the bottom strand of the 3-wire to the ground has (or will have after the next repaving/resurfacing) 1-inch wire mesh to keep DTs out of the road.

Road kill and, somewhat surprising to most, ravens, are a couple of the primary killers.


To attempt vegetation establishment and enhancement in an area where it will be decimated by cattle clearly would not work. Relocating tortoise to new sites also won't work if there is not sufficient veg, and fences that either are incompatible with cattle being able to graze or are low enough for cattle to cross (which are then trampled by the cattle and become useless for keeping the DTs in a specific locale)

It's like you folks are stupid on purpose. NICE! Got it, RICK. May I suggest reading taking a comprehension course?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Black kid in a hoody gets shot buying Skiddles, the right wing extremist celebrate. Some old white dude flaunting the law claims tyranny against the BLM, he's a hero. Wingnuts.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Harry Reid instigated it?

I thought it was the freeloading tax cheat.

The retards are getting started early today!

Red herring for breakfast mmmmmmm
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:23am PT
A Senator supporting a 5 BILLION dollar manufacturing facility in his state? UNHEARD OF! What the hell is he thinking attempting to boost the economy of his state!

And incentives to build there, that is unprecedented (except every damn large scale manufacturing site built in this country over the last decade where cities/counties/states bidding against each other in a race to the bottom to give away incentives...see: Any BMW, Toyota, Nissan, VW or about any other plant built in the south or midwest in the last 20 years).

Wingnuts and stupid, like pigs in sh#t.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:25am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:28am PT
Wow the Chiefster really has his thong in a pinch over this one.



The personal attacks you Regressives ALWAYS resort to when the truth comes out and you can't defend your rhetoric.

Fixed it for you.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:30am PT
The Reid talking points came out yesterday

Little late to be breathlessly 'breaking' this to ST chief

See, there's a whole infrastructure for the dissemination of crap like this so you can stay ahead of the 'libtards' that threaten your very existence. What'd you do, lose the remote?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Ron that was pathetic. Go back into hiding lol.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:33am PT
You Regressives should have a Mentos or a TicTac your breath smells of Koch.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:39am PT
Here they come.


The personal attacks you Libtards ALWAYS resort to when the truth comes out and your ECO FREAK agenda is exposed.


Hey Chief- Have a great day.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:44am PT
The chief hasn't had a great day since he left the womb
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:48am PT
Ooooh wet dream c#m true.
He's so manly I wonder if he has a beard and kills people like all good Americans?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:52am PT
Yeah, good luck putting a slug "2-300yds downrange" into anything smaller than the side of a barn. You gonna have a 2' drop at 200 even with a saboted slug in a rifled barrel.

Do you even know anything about firearms RICK?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:55am PT
Chief posted
The personal attacks you Libtards ALWAYS resort to when the truth comes out and your ECO FREAK agenda is exposed.

No irony here at all.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:57am PT
What, exactly, is a "secret life'?
And why would I be jealous of it?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
^^^ You are the King of Mirroring.


I have a beard and know how to kill if necessary. So do you think I should be "jealous" because I don't require an arsenal of firearms to get an erection?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Dude you are the one always posting bearded "special ops" troops intimating they are cold blooded killers and the only true Americans.



And for the record I would rather see a solar farm than more methane dispensers.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
The MIlitia and gunhuggers always talk big about standing up to big government tyranny. Cheap talk like don't retreat re-load. Well what happened? why no fire fight? No balls for bullets? At least not the incoming ones.



The benefits of a solar farm far outweigh the cattle rancher cheating on his lease fees.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
No reason that should happen.
But long term degradation of their habitat by overgrazing will.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
Can one of you folks explain how spending $3 million on an "operation" to recover cows worth $560,000 to recoup a million bucks in back fees HELPS the US taxpayer?

Someone in the BLM should be fired for that asinine decision-making alone.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:34pm PT
I thought it was about compliance with the law and not about helping American tax payers.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Tell me how a hand slap fine to big polluters helps the American tax payer.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:38pm PT
Once again for those suffering from reading comprehension deficit.


Apr 13, 2014 - 09:32am PT
No reason that should happen.
But long term degradation of their habitat by overgrazing will.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:45pm PT
"I thought it was about compliance with the law and not about helping American tax payers."

If it was about compliance with the law, and not collection of back fees - then show up with one sheriff, a warrant, and arrest him. Duh.

If it was about back fees - which is one premise that many of you have been arguing then IT IS about helping the taxpayer as public land is owned by the taxpayer, and thus his back fees are owed to "us". So recovery of those fees should not cost more than the money recovered, otherwise the ROI is negative and value is TAKEN from the Treasury, not RETURNED.

If it is about the tortoise, or solar, or some other BS, then the same premise applies - the value returned to the treasury should still exceed the cost to get it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
Would it be OK with you if it were a Fracking operation promoted by the Kochs?

Like you give a damn about the environment.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 12:59pm PT
Simple the red neck f*#ker should be hauled into court. If he is found guilty either he pay all his back taxes or go to jail just like the any other one of us would that refused to pay his taxes.

Local to me on the east coast I know of a very successful guy a friend of a family member. Anyway this guy was mid 50's very successful owned a successful steel tubing business and just stopped paying his taxes like ten years ago. Any normal person would ask why and think he must have been having $$$ problems or something. Nope, come to find out via his father his business was thriving and money was great. I guess this guy had got caught up with some real right wing extremest anti government militia type folk and sunk real deep into the sub culture. His parents say he for real preoccupied with collecting weapons and almost a paranoia that the government was planning a take over. I guess he skydiving starred taking extended trips out west and to the kid west that seemed extremely odd.

Anyway the guy is doing like 10 years in prison. And rightfully so!

Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Philo, do you have any idea what you are talking about?


Hypothetically, would tortoises fair better on the ground of a solar installation with no vegetation, or this...

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
If you are opposed to solar farms, make your voices heard. I oppose many of them too... at least until they retrofit urban areas with all the panels they possibly can. We can work together on that one!

But Bundy was illegally grazing his cattle on BLM land, despite numerous court orders to stop, and owes over $1 million in back fees and fines. No way in hell 600,000 acres was his before they BLM supposedly took it from him, as idiots here suggest.

First it was for the turtles, then oil, then minerals, then solar farms... blah blah blah.

The only clear fact that has persisted through this bullshit it... Bundy was illegally grazing his cattle on BLM land for a long fuking time, ignored multiple court orders, and then threatened violence when they came to get his cattle off public land. Good old Mormon rancher.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
The federal government will do as it will with its land. Bundy has no legal title in that land any more than I do. What am I missing?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:08pm PT

I don't give a damn about the Desert Tortoise

or any other turtle

as chief says, millions of species have gone extinct on this planet, what's another one?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
I'd still love to hear how it was a good idea to spend $3 million to get $1 million...

Weschrist? Philo? Anybody?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
One day, you or your ancestors will wish for these guns you had tried to ban.

explain how increasing background checks to weed out felons is "banning" legal ownership

thanks
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:17pm PT
^^^^ That's why France ended up the way it is....
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:18pm PT
^^^^^ Only the ones they hadn't "euthanized" and buried on that "fragile tortoise habitat" with a backhoe. Not to mention all the motherless and terrorized calves that did/will die!

Had ONE shot been fired, there would have been a thousand outraged Americans show up in support for every militiaman there.

My biggest issue was not the Bundy standoff, but the use of raw and contemptuous paramilitary power by a previously regulatory agency, not another armed Government Gestapo group with Assault rifles and attack dogs. Virtually every Federal agency these days has armed gestapo agents, and that includes the EPA and IRS. Not sure about OSHA, but I wouldn't put it past them to want one. it's a matter of departmental "prestige," you see.

And for the rest of you participating in this "discussion/slanderfest," this makes me wonder if you really understand why ordinary Americans don't want to surrender their gun RIGHTS! Nobody wants to "go to war" with their neighbors or community. The war is sometimes brought to the doorstep.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
Yeah because you right wing gun loving nut case freak shows are nothing but a bunch of country style thugs. I really don't see any difference between you country red neck hicks and the minorities in our inner cities that rule with a iron fist weapons and thuggery.

Look the government is just dotting all its I's and crossing all its T's. The government will deal with this per the boundaries of the law and as they see fit. Just possibly our government did the responsible thing after you wack jobs showed up and decided to go back to the drawing board and organize a less confrontational manner of resolving this issue avoiding a blood bath of any sort. I think as a society as of late it has become clear a blood bath has to be considered a real possibility as it happens with such frequency these days.

As for us turning into Ukraine sure in think long term it is possible. Anything is!

I also feel that if this is where the world is heading the best thing that could happen is we all just f*#king kill each other and go by the way of the dinosaurs. Humans really are quite pathetic. A bunch of selfish one way thinking f*#ks with only one real priority. Personal agenda and self preservation of it. Not very impressive imop from a species that actually has the potential and capacity to do whatever it is it decided to put its mind to...
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:26pm PT
The war is sometimes brought to the doorstep.

When, exactly?

You and your beloved gun nut brethren are arming yourselves for war?

Get help.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Good one. Another gem from the mental patient.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
Armed men are Citizens; unarmed men are Subjects. That was the issue at Lexington. That was the issue at Concord.

All you subjects, have a nice day.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
Fend who off?

You're insane. Much more likely a threat to yourself than to me.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Who here really cares about the damn Desert Tortoise?

and the baby calves, boo hoo

all you libtards make me want to get my gun out and serve my country again, in a jungle

two can wave the flag
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Yeah...! Let's take back America...! rj
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
You guys think this is the only instance of this happening? The problem is this is a pattern, and its getting worse... This is only one other recent example of excess:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/11/epa-facing-fire-armed-raid-alaska-mine/

Why do regulatory agencies need armed paramilitary? If someone is suspected to be dangerous we have the FBI and local sheriffs...

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
yeah,

I would rather eat Tofu than beef anyway
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Why do regulatory agencies need armed paramilitary? If someone is suspected to be dangerous we have the FBI and local sheriffs...

because there were guys there armed with AR15s, ready to "water the tree of liberty"?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
can't smoke cigarettes unless you are 18

the list is endless

child seat belt laws for example, let the free market decide that one, yeah!
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
Tioga, them's is some funny "facts" you're spouting...

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 13, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
Tioga, and others-

That's why I live where I do and the way I do. I don't have a useless and water-thirsty lawn; I do have a garden, I've had chickens, pigs, and lots of cows, several horses. The house of my nearest neighbor is ~ 1 mile away. But...unlike those who live in a subdivision or apartmenst, I know and respect all my neighbors, and am prepared to help them in any manner they need or ask.

I also had an offer to build a wind farm on my ranch several years ago, but didn't. The visual impact was not at all pleasing to me. We have a "neighborhood agreement" to keep that sort of development out of our scenic valley.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
Norton gets it.

Fluffy: I hope you take a step back once in awhile and laugh at these loons. These issues are just nutcase magnets. Fortunately, they represent a very small segment of society.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
Also hilarious: Appalachian Area News.

From their "About us" section:

Appalachia is the cultural region in the Eastern United States that stretches from the Southern Tier of New York State to Northern Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia.

Historically the center of the first rebellions of the new American Nation, the people of Appalachia are strong willed and determined to effect modern change. Appalachian Area News is a pro-liberty aggregator of important everyday events in the region.

We maintain no religious or political affiliations and do not seek to promote any particular ideology save TRUTH, LIBERTY, AND FREEDOM!

Appalachian Area News is dedicated to the progression of knowledge and ideals through the communication of Pro-Liberty commentary on important current events in the area.

The Appalachian Mountain Region is home of the most notoriously rebellious, pro liberty individuals in the country. Contrary to popular belief, the people of Appalachia are among the most loving, kind, and tolerant people in America.

With a natural rugged individualism and healthy distrust of Government it has been in this region that the seeds of almost every popular revolutionary anti-authoritarian movement in the nations history have been sewn including the abolitionist movements against slavery before the Civil War.

To stress the point once more, WE ARE NOT REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS. It is important to understand that the March Of Tyranny is made with BOTH a LEFT AND A RIGHT FOOT.

This late in the game it is hard for any rational person to imagine how any sort of party loyalism can still exist in this country for it is painfully and factually obvious to all of us that are truly paying attention that BOTH major parties in the United States are completely bought and paid for by the exact same corrupt financial elements and oligarchs that continually further the exact same totalitarian agenda.

It is more understandable and appropriate however to hold traditional liberal or conservative philosophical ideals or to be ‘anti-party establishment’ like pro ‘Tea Party’ on the Right or part of The ‘Occupy’ Movements on the Left.

Still though, even these political permutations rely on establishment moneys and particularly as in the case of the Occupy movement is very susceptible to High Level manipulations.

If Appalachian Area News had to conform in order to elaborate on any political holdings, rather than identify as political atheists we will simply distinguish as being socially liberal and fiscally conservative philosophical libertarians to avoid giving the reader any facetious faculty.

In a simpler notion however, we would like to state that THERE IS ONLY LIBERTY/FREEDOM AND THEN THERE IS EVERYTHING ELSE.

We are committed to enlightening the residents of Appalachia and every where else about the news and politics in our area that matters the MOST to our daily lives as individuals.

As government gets bigger and bigger and personal liberties and freedoms get smaller and smaller, it will be to strong no nonsense people of Appalachia that the nation must look towards to turn things around.

Sadly however, like most of the nation most Appalachian people have been scientifically and systematically dumb-downed, distracted, and indoctrinated to recognize Government as both necessary and legitimate instead of the violent entity it truly is which relies on a monopoly of force and coercion to rob and steal our children’s economic futures.

It is the MISSION of Appalachian Area News to bring the public of Appalachia and the nation news that does not express propaganda sponsored by big government or big corporations in order to further private agendas but news that furthers the agenda of LIBERTY AND FREEDOM.

We provide the important news stories of the day on our site along with our unique commentary and original articles. Also, under our media tab you can find our daily news shows.

http://appalachianareanews.com/about-us/

Yeah, that's an objective, reliable source.

LOL.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Thanks dirtbag you're right of course

Small segment of paranoid lunatics that didn't get the love they needed growing up and probably small-dicked and impotent as well.

I feel bad for em, they seem fuc kin miserable.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
"But...unlike those who live in a subdivision or apartmenst, I know and respect all my neighbors, and am prepared to help them in any manner they need or ask."


What a bunch of crap...grew up inner city and people care for each other there too just as much if not more than you country folk.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 02:48pm PT
just a thought but

we can put a 500 pound bomb through your bedroom window within a couple hours

or have SEAL team six knocking at your door

just what good are all these threats to "defend" against the Government?

Don't tread on me. Sounds good, but its not 1776 anymore.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
What a bunch of crap...grew up inner city and people care for each other there too just as much if not more than you country folk.

Seriously...how difficult is it to get along with neighbors that are a mile away?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
Hey Chuff look at the bigger picture dipsh#t. The status quo of big oil gives us fun times like the little dribble that BP had in the gulf or the one EXXON had in Alaska. Then there is the urban air that can be cut into brown chunks. The negative environmental impact of that whole failed paradigm is infinitely greater than solar and wind farms. When there is a spill at a solar farm it's called a sunny day. Oil spills, not so much.


And by the way you are a pretty crappy shot.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
I thought it was about compliance with the law...
BINGO.

So wow, is it really stupid for the BLM to try to collect their rent when about $1million is due?
Why did it take so long?
How about due process? The wheels of justice grind exceedingly slowly etc.
Or do you think the BLM should have tossed Bundy in jail the first time he missed a payment?
We'll find out soon enough when Congress has an investigation.
Will heads roll? Likely there'll be a few sacrificial lambs at BLM.

And why are we not surprised that it's the Climate Deniers who are bitching about the possibility of the land being used for a solar power project?
And wow, the bleeding heart Climate Deniers are now concerned about the poor ole Desert Tortoise?
Not to worry, the socialist environmentalists and conservationists will look after him.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
High Traverse writes:

"And why are we not surprised that it's the Climate Deniers who are bitching about the possibility of the land being used for a solar power project?
And wow, the bleeding heart Climate Deniers are now concerned about the poor ole Desert Tortoise?"





Perhaps the Liberal Left doesn't have a monopoly on concern for the environment. Mind blowing, I know.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:27pm PT

Why do regulatory agencies need armed paramilitary? If someone is suspected to be dangerous we have the FBI and local sheriffs...



Seriously? With all the gun huggers out there defending their god given right to break laws.
One of my best friends from high school on is the Game Warden for the DOW . I've ridden with him on Poacher busts. It is part of his job that he may not come home from. Do you think he should approach these armed outlaws with roses and chocolates?


How dare he do his federal duty and impose the law on poachers.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
concern for the environment.
Tell me how the Climate Change Deniers show their concern for the environment.
Or did the irony go right over your head?
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
Groking irony requires a brain...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
I'm intrigued.

I just sold an 11-87 with a 21" barrel that I used to hit 12 oz. cans @ 60m with about 50-50.
I can't seem to load Chief's photo, but hitting anything with a rifled slug at 150 yards is another story. They slow down and drop quickly.

I'd like to see what Philo, a well known gun troll, can do.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
Years ago I worked for the Forrest Circus on a long term environmental study of the long term impact of domestic animal grazing on public wildlands.

Long story short I'll take wind and solar farms.



"Groking Irony" LOL.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
"I'd like to see what Philo, a well known gun troll, can do."

Which proves what???
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:40pm PT
Science is scary and unGodly.

Here you go Chuffy can you tell which side of the fence is grazing land?
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
I just sold an 11-87 with a 21" barrel that I used to hit 12 oz. cans @ 60m with about 50-50.
I can't seem to load Chief's photo, but hitting anything with a rifled slug at 150 yards is another story. They slow down and drop quickly.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
^^^ People who think they are defending Liberty from Tyranny do.


A Cowscape.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:49pm PT
MOO.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
Chief, you've posted that same pair of pics 4 times. What's your point?

As for the BLM just now getting around to claiming their rent due?
The bureau revoked Bundy’s grazing rights after he stopped paying grazing fees and disregarded federal court orders to remove his animals.
Note that is plural federal court orders (at least more than one)
A federal judge in Las Vegas first ordered Bundy to remove his trespassing cattle in 1998. The bureau was implementing two federal court orders last year to remove Bundy’s cattle after making repeated efforts to resolve the matter outside court, Kornze said, adding the rancher has not paid grazing fees in 20 years.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home3/57813930-200/bundy-federal-cattle-nevada.html.csp
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
dickheads are tiresome.. left or right
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
OMG the horrors Eagles can burn in the light of a solar array.
Better keep drillin' and spillin'
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:54pm PT
Welfare queens...http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/grazing/


Sucking on the tit of the government.

" The ecological costs of livestock grazing exceed that of any other western land use. In the arid Southwest, livestock grazing is the most widespread cause of species endangerment. By destroying vegetation, damaging wildlife habitats and disrupting natural processes, livestock grazing wreaks ecological havoc on riparian areas, rivers, deserts, grasslands and forests alike — causing significant harm to species and the ecosystems on which they depend.

Despite these costs, livestock grazing continues on state and federal lands throughout the arid West. Livestock grazing is promoted, protected and subsidized by federal agencies on 270 million acres of public land in the 11 western states. Federal-lands livestock grazing enjoys $100 million annually in direct subsidy; indirect subsidies may be three times that. On the Tonto National Forest in Arizona in 2004 and 2005, ranchers were subsidized under just one federal program to the tune of $3.5 million for “range improvements.”
ECOLOGICAL COSTS

Cattle destroy native vegetation, damage soils and stream banks, and contaminate waterways with fecal waste. After decades of livestock grazing, once-lush streams and riparian forests have been reduced to flat, dry wastelands; once-rich topsoil has been turned to dust, causing soil erosion, stream sedimentation and wholesale elimination of some aquatic habitats; overgrazing of fire-carrying grasses has starved some western forests of fire, making them overly dense and prone to unnaturally severe fires.

Keystone predators like the grizzly and Mexican gray wolf were driven extinct in southwestern ecosystems by “predator control” programs designed to protect the livestock industry. Adding insult to injury — and flying in the face of modern conservation science — the livestock industry remains the leading stodgy opponent to otherwise popular efforts to reintroduce species like the Mexican gray wolf in Arizona and New Mexico."
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
dickheads are tiresome.. left or right
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
you are a dick

no.. you are a moron

no. you are a double moron

no.. you are a dick and a moron

no.. you are
no you are
no you are
no you are
no you are
no you are



bleh..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:05pm PT


Volkswagen’s New 300 MPG Car Is Not Allowed In America Because It’s Too Efficient

http://themindunleashed.org/2014/04/volkswagens-new-300-mpg-car-allowed-america-efficient.htmlBold Text**

You won’t find the 300 MPG Volkswagen XL1 in an American showroom, in fact it has even been denied a tour of America because it is too efficient for the American public to be made widely aware of, and oil profits are too high in America with the status quo in place.

No tour has been allowed for this car because the myth that 50 mpg is virtually impossible to obtain from even a stripped down econobox is too profitable to let go of, and when it comes to corporate oil profits, ignorance is bliss.




Why can't you Regressives and Obstructionists see the bigger picture or think outside the box, or in this case barrel.

Same mindset resists Green Renewable and Sustainable energy.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
Still does not answer why it took the FEDS 20 years to act as they did last week.
I agree. But what's your point?
Perhaps you think that instead of glacial speed due process he should have been tossed in jail and the Feds confiscated his cattle 15 years ago?

It's really too bad that morons like Bundy and the "militia" goons get due process like the rest of us.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
They actually didn't wait 20 years. They've been delayed because of lawsuits. And originally, they actually tried to (Gasp!) work with the guy.

. In 1997, Clark County purchased all active grazing permits in the area in accordance with the new federal Desert Tortoise Recovery Plan and the county’s own Desert Conservation Program, offering Bundy compensation for water rights and range improvements on his former allotment. Bundy rejected the offer. In 1999, the Nevada District Court permanently banned Bundy from grazing cattle in the area, ordering him to remove them or face a $200 penalty per cow per day. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the injunction. Between 2008 and 2011, the BLM cancelled Bundy’s remaining range improvement authorizations. In 2011 Bundy ignored several court orders, including a notice of impoundment. Over the next two years, the BLM aerially counted first 903, then 729, then 600, then 750 head of cattle, nearly all suspected to belong to Bundy, on land closed to grazing.


https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
That's how The Mob does things. They make you an offer you better not refuse - or else.

I guess he wasn't ready to go out of business yet.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
It's like trying to rationalize with a colicky screaming toddler

I give up
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Make WHAT happen? A stand off? A shoot out? A bloodbath?
Libtards were thrown to the ground and threatened with tasers for daring to wear Greenpeace T shirts to Republican political rallys during the illegal Presidency of GWShrub. Where were you gunhuggin' American patriots when it came to defending the rights of law abiding citizens against the tyranny of the State? So phuck ewe you Libertariantard "Don't Tread On Me" , "Water the Tree of Liberty" types.



Here's a question for ya Chuf.
If ancient archeological artifacts are found on Public land and it appears the find may be of great significance is it proper to temporarily restrict access to professional archeologists while the dig is occurring or should anyone be able to dig there?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:44pm PT


One big difference Philo, the REPUG RALLYS went on as scheduled and did not mess a beat. Libtards were arrested and controlled.

One BIG difference Chuffie is that the Libtards were NOT breaking ANY law while the Bundy Ranch has and IS.
Is the big difference for you that they were libtards and as such worthy of illegal detention and abuse.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
So this was once about the tortoise and NOT illegal grazing on the peoples land that them 400,000 acre DNE solar farm will do wonders for when they are constructed after Bundy's cattle are removed...

What solar farm?

The only sources I find for that angle come from "Appalachian News" and similar crank sources.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
the BLM packed their shet and went home returning all of Bundys cattle that they did not kill
So Chief
How many of Bundy's cattle DID the BLM kill?
I'm sure Bundy's not shy about telling the world. His claim must be out there somewhere in the blogosphere. Or perhaps on Faux News.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
Your only hope is for him to tire himself out throwing a tantrum and fall asleep

He had a big day at the gun wange it should be soon
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
It's exactly what the Republican Party wants. All the laws written in favor of their lifestyle In Favor of their ideals. F*#k anyone who has a different idea or philosophy on life. And dear you suggest we are the one way f*#kers we will find whatever way we can to try and flip it around so you are the one way f*#kers.

And when that don't work we will threaten you with our guns! A bunch of backward simple minded juvenile little red neck f*#king babies kicking and screaming cuz they think the are right. I wouldn't really care except you gun toting maniacs are willing to kill people to get your way.

The thing is the only ones who do not pick up on the rotten stench of sh#t of shot you emit with regard to my way or the highway is the Republican Party. The only people the back you are a bunch of other f*#ktards who sole concern in life it their bank account religious beliefs or right to bully people with deadly force
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
Cows are NOT an endangered species. I find it laughable that any regressive conservative gives a damn about baby cows unless veal is on the menu.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 05:14pm PT
They are just now counting how many cattle were euthanized and the newly born calves and their mothers that died on the range
Be sure to keep us posted. Enquiring Minds Must Know.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
Yep! Let them eat turtle soup and steak tartar.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
Senator Reid is fking thief. He is systematically scamming so much underhand shet through his position all in the name of mitgating climate change and saving the world.

and what is the name of this legislation you speak of, that Senator Reid got the Senate to pass, and had to have some Republicans help with the vote?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
DTCC euthanized over 200 of the "endagered" tortoises in captivity
Ok, so I'm uninformed on this one.
Who is the DTCC and what's your source about killing the tortoises?

So far I still can't find any mention of the Feds killing any Bundy cattle.
"Good morning America, good morning world, isn't it a beautiful day in Bunkerville?" Bundy told a cheering crowd after his cattle were released, according to the Las Vegas Review-Journal.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
Bob D'A wants proof.

(on Supertopo no less)
Hey Bob didn't you read that I'm anti-grazing on public land?

fluffy, is that a picture of you? What are you even doing here?



Well Chief, got the photo loaded.

Not bad, a few flyers to the left, but you seem to have dialed in the elevation.
What is it, like a 16" drop?


Has anybody here ever been to Bunkerville?
I went through years ago, and on through St. Thomas gap, across the Grand Wash Valley, up Hidden Canyon, over Mount Trumball, and down to Toroweap on the Grand Canyon to visit the grave of a friend. Then north across the Arizona Strip and back into Utah.

Well over 200 miles of continuous dirt roads in varying repair traveling through 3 states.

Spectacular as hell! Great trip.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
Isa and i did Toroweep in a compact chevy rental car:)
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
I'm trying to get caught up on this thread. Looks like liberty was assaulted by an 8x11 piece of paper and Chief saved us? And rednecks saved cows from being cooked on mirrors in the desert by Harry Reid using taxpayer money borrowed from China? Sounds like a good day for 'mericuh.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
Nothing to do about any legislation. Rather ENN and DNE, Norton.

But I now see you will dismiss any wrong doing that may come about regarding his non-senatorial business activities. ENN and DNE.

oh, knock off your judgements, I am not "dismissing" a damn thing

be specific, chief, not any vague he is related to stuff

what exactly is Harry Reid himself doing to effect "climate change"?

I just want to know, thanks, and don't twist this into some kind of personal attack thing
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 07:11pm PT
Clark County Sheriff's statement
...Sheriff Doug Gillespie said he spent all week mediating discussions involving the governor and both state and federal lawyers. Among the sheriff's concerns were unspecified threats received by nearby businesses and the safety of people at the Clark County Fair and Rodeo this weekend in Logandale, he said.
I cannot interfere with the federal government when it is operating on federal land,” Gillespie said in a statement Saturday night. “But when a group of protesters threaten civil unrest or violence in this county -- it is my job to step in and ensure the safety of citizens.”

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-blm-cattle-nevada-rancher-20140412,0,2071818.story#axzz2yoH6qSI9

Some have claimed here that the Sheriff has jurisdiction on BLM lands. Apparently Gillespie doesn't think so. Given that he had been in discussions with state and Fed lawyers he's probably right.

BLM Director Neil Kornze secured his position after U.S. Senate confirmation on Tuesday, four days into the cattle roundup.
So Sen Reid's buddy was not in on ordering the cattle confiscation nor on the planning.

(From the same article)

John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
when I first saw something on the internet about Reid being involved it was a blog saying he was destroying documents. That is pretty funny because it doesn't say who caught him "destroying" documents, which would mean some kind of investigation, and it doesn't say who got the documents and released them. It just produced this statement that Reid was caught destroying documents and that took off from there.

this whole thing has gotten absurd.

I feel bad for the rancher losing his way of life. But lots of people lose their way of life given enough time. How many different things have gone by the wayside. Plenty.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
David Blackmon in Forbes Magazine. He is certainly not sympathetic to the BLM OR environmentalists.
To be fair to the regulators, Mr. Bundy’s reaction to the 1993 heavy-handed action by the BLM is not entirely defensible either. He simply quit paying his grazing fees at that time, and has refused to pay them since. After piling up for 20 years, he admits to owing the government over $300,000, while the government claims the delinquent fees in fact exceed $1 million. ( A good guess is that Bundy is not including penalties and interest in his calculation, and those things have a way of adding up over a couple of decades.) He has also refused to reduce the size of his herd in compliance with the 1993 guidance, and has continued to occupy the land in defiance of the law. While one can certainly understand his anger and frustration at his situation, the actions he has taken are really not acceptable in a civil society.
Forbes has taken this article down but of course it had already been cached.
[url="http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2014/04/09/using-snipers-to-protect-a-tortoise/&strip=1"]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidblackmon/2014/04/09/using-snipers-to-protect-a-tortoise/&strip=1[/url]

more debunking here
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/04/11/the-nevada-tortoise-war-is-a-right-wing-false-f/198860
In fact, a BLM tortoise conservancy in Nevada was forced to shut down due to budget cuts. Prior to its closure, the Desert Tortoise Conservation Center had to make the difficult decision to put down the tortoises that carried disease or were too feeble to survive on their own. The others were released back into the wild.

And from another source:
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service desert tortoise recovery coordinator Roy Averill-Murray estimated last week that about 50 percent to 60 percent of the 1,400 tortoises that live at the refuge were sick. Such tortoises cannot be released into the wild because they could infect their healthy wild brethren.

Deputy Fish and Wildlife Service director Carolyn Wells said Wednesday that the 50 percent estimate of sick tortoises at the facility may be correct, but added that not all of the ailing animals will be killed. Some of them could potentially go to research facilities, she said, though she could not say how many, and she does not yet have commitments from biologists.

Fish and Wildlife operates the center in conjunction with the San Diego Zoo.
http://blog.pe.com/environment/2013/08/30/desert-tortoise-move-on-to-save-conservation-center/

Chief, thanks for putting me onto that story, I had missed it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Smart move by all to let the local Sheriff have the last word and take the credit.
He still has no remit on Federal property.

From the Dept of Homeland (In)Security
Put into plain English so your border agent knows what she is allowed/required to do.
Unlike a private landlord, Congress has the authority to create law enforcement organizations to patrol and to protect areas of federal property. Violations occurring within the federal land will then be handled by a federal law enforcement officer. This occurs on many of our land management areas, national parks, national refuges and forests, and BLM lands, as well as in developed areas and federal buildings protected and patrolled by many of our federal police agencies. Many of them have their own CFR regulations that are enforced within their property.
http://www.fletc.gov/training/programs/legal-division/podcasts/the-federal-system-law-enforcement-jurisdiction-and-the-courts/the-federal-system-law-enforcement-jurisdiction-and-the-courts-transcripts/territorial-jurisdiction-on-federal-property-transcrip

Or put another way, it is similar in the states.
In California ALL State/County/Regional park rangers are now deputized LEOs. For instance, right down the road from me, State Park Rangers are the law, not the county Sheriff or Highway Patrol. The State highways on two sides of the park is Highway Patrol. The county roads on the other side of the park are county Sheriff.
There is frequently mutual aid. If there's a Real Bad Person in the park, the Ranger calls the Sheriff. If there's a Highway Patrol officer closer, she responds too. But it's the Ranger who makes the decision to cite or arrest or not. If arrested, then the county Sheriff gets custody.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:17pm PT
And not one time has Mr. Bundy ever admitted to owing the feds a dime.
Al Capone I'm sure claimed the same thing. The courts have said otherwise in both cases.

Or have you forgotten that we are governed by laws that are interpreted by the courts?
I really don't like some recent Supreme Court decisions. Doesn't mean I get to break the law with impunity.
Do you?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
Compare yes, call them equal?
No. Bundy will not go down in history for good or evil. He'll be forgotten in 10 years.
Reductio Ad Absurdum
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
Huff and puff Chuff, you are still striking out swinging the shitcrazy bat.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
The chief...I'm guessing the Leos left to avoid an incident that would have left an angry mob on the short end of the AR-15 stick giving the neo-cons a new horse to flog in the upcoming elections..?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
If anyone cares to read the last Federal District Court decision, from July, you'll see how specious Bundy's arguments are. It's a short document and surprisingly easy reading for a court decision.
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Order-US-v.-Bundy-7-9-13.pdf

“the public lands in Nevada are the property of the
United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when
Mexico ceded the land to the United States.” CV-S-98-531 at 8 (citing United States v. Gardner,
107 F.3d 1314, 1318 (9th Cir. 1997))
Well before Bundy's Mormon pioneer ancestors got there in 1877
...Bundy is incorrect in claiming that the Disclaimer Clause of the Nevada Constitution carries no legal force
that the __Property Clause of the United States Constitution applies only to federal lands
outside the borders of states__, see id. at 1320
Where the heck did Bundy get that cockamamy idea? (let me guess......wacko intertard sites)
that the United States‘ exercise of ownership
over federal lands violates the Equal Footing Doctrine, see id. at 1319; __that the United States
is basing its authority to sanction Bundy for his unauthorized use of federal lands on the
Endangered Species Act__ as opposed to trespass, see Compl. at ¶¶ 1,3, 26-39;
and that
Nevada’s “Open Range” statute excuses Bundy’s trespass. See e.g., Gardner, 107 F.3d at 1320
(under Supremacy Clause state statute in conflict with federal law requiring permit to graze
would be trumped).
It's in the Constitution. Federal Law always trumps state law. Just as any rights NOT claimed by the Fed Govt devolve to the states or the people.
The United States has submitted __Bundy’s
deposition excerpts indicating that Bundy has grazed livestock on the New Trespass Lands__
and further evidence of the trespass of Bundy’s cattle in those areas. Notwithstanding
Bundy’s contentions that the observed cattle bearing his brand may not in fact be his own,
such a denial does not controvert Nevada law regarding prima facie evidence of ownership
of branded cattle.
Bundy has produced no valid law or specific facts raising a genuine issue of fact
regarding federal ownership or management of public lands in Nevada, or that his cattle
have not trespassed on the New Trespass Lands.
Not one of Bundy's claims is valid. That's about as airtight a ruling as a Federal Court ever gives.

And for all the "militia" nut cases, Article 6 section 2 of the Constitution is clear
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

Bundy just doesn't want the law to apply to him. Plain and simple.
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
If we could remove the hyperbole, and the personal attacks, I do feel some level of empathy for this man. It appears to me that he lost his grazing rights because the desert tortoise was labeled an endangered species. I do not know if other grazing areas were offered to him. It would be interesting to know. So rather then give in, he decided to embark on a path of not paying any grazing fees and he defended this by saying it was ancestral lands and he tried to use the homestead act. He failed in his defense in court, including before a judge who is mormon and was appointed by Ronald Reagan, so it is unlikely that there was liberal bias on the part of the court.

The man was facing something very difficult and he fought. Was he right to fight? I don't know. I don't know enough about the desert tortoise to decide that. I also don't know if he was offered other lands to graze his cattle on.

I do believe that the feds were within their rights. It is federal land. Should they have done this? I don't know.

On a similar note, I also feel empathy for those who lost their businesses because of the recent recession, a recession which I believe was brought about by corrupt bankers and corrupt politicians who do not have the peoples best interest at heart.

But how many militia men went to bat for those people? And how many made fun of the Occupy movement, including the Chief, for trying to fight against large aggressive power. Are they so different? I don't think so.
Bargainhunter

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
Good info HighTraverse. I suspect Bundy will be arrested in the near future and liens will be placed against his assets to pay his overdue fines. I doubt the Supreme Court will have to get involved in this.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
No. It's settled. He's SOL. It's been litigated for 20 years. He lost. End of story.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
Hell tradman, rental cars make some of the best performing off road vehicles. It is truly remarkable where you can get those things to go.

And you probably went in the short way!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
Thanks again Chief.
This is an interesting document about Nevada's Open Range law, not written by attorneys and therefore pretty easy reading. Nevada's Open Range law covers OBLIGATIONS of grazing animal owners and their neighbors.
It ONLY applies to Open Range.
See page 1 for the salient statement.
Clark County has only one remaining BLM allotment and all open range grazing has been, in effect, eliminated.
Open Range Defined
In 1893, Nevada law “exempted owners of “livestock running at large on the ranges or commons from civil liability for trespass pursuant to NRS 568.300”
.
.
.
Open Range is defined by
Nevada Statute in NRS 568.355 as used in
NRS 568.360 and 568.370 as “all unenclosed
land outside of cities and towns upon which
cattle, sheep or other domestic animals by
custom, license, lease or permit are grazed or permitted to roam”
the Federal Courts have revoked Bundy's "lease or permit" to use Federal Land (see Supremacy Clause)
End of story.

John M
well said

and now
I'm OUTTA HERE!
John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
To equate the Fed Gov't to a private entity such as Wallstreet just shows how naive many are in this nation.

It would be naive to fail to understand the power and influence Wallstreet has over our government, our economy and our money supply.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
John M that was good man thanks
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
THE cattle are still grazing on federal land

bottom line: those cattle will be sold and the proceeds paid to the BLM for back fees

and no way 600 cows are worth the one million dollars he owes

he is SOL, and he brought it on himself, by refusing to pay grazing fees, how dumb?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
Yup if only I could communicate in such a eloquent manner as John M apposed to abrasive and ineffective manner I mostly do. Actually most all of us could only hope for so much.

John M my hats off to you as the voice of reason logic and pride..
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 13, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
Has anyone read the court decisions, briefs? There is way too much missing information to be making judgments here.

I tend to root for individuals vs. big government, but I root against the "pry my gun from my cold dead hands" crowd that rides along the coattails of real individuals.


“Look...Reality is greater than the sum of its parts, also a damn sight holier. And the lives of such stuff as dreams are made of may be rounded with a sleep but they are not tied neatly with a red bow. Truth doesn't run on time like a commuter train, though time may run on truth. And the Scenes Gone By and the Scenes to Come flow blending together in the sea-green deep while Now spreads in circles on the surface. So don't sweat it. For focus simply move a few inches back or forward. And once more...look.”

Ken Kesey
Sometimes A Great Notion


HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
Has anyone read the court decisions, briefs?
I've read the latest court decision, July 2013.
I linked to it midway up the previous page.

I'm surprised no enterprising states rights attorney hasn't taken Bundy's case to appeals court. Perhaps there isn't one stupid enough to do it pro bono and Bundy hasn't got the scratch to hire his own?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:13pm PT
who in fact "eliminated" it from that county
Supremacy Clause
Article 6 Section 2 of the Constitution.
And the fact that it's been Federal land since the US acquired the land from Mexico.

So Chief, there are a lot of Tacoheads who agree with you. You could all rouse up the "militia" men and women to each pitch in a few $$ and hire an attorney on Bundy's behalf?
Or is loading up an AR15 and posing for the press more exciting?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:25pm PT
They will spend the 3 million and they will lose.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
The proposal includes setting aside $3 million for legal defense.
BINGO.
And it ain't gonna win. Shurtleff is just trolling for votes. (My Father knew him at law school and didn't think much of him)
In May 2013, the media reported on a secret recording in which Mark Shurtleff was heard offering a businessman, Darl McBride, $2 million if he dropped his ongoing battle with another prominent businessman, Mark Robbins. McBride recorded the conversation and turned it over to federal agents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shurtleff

He didn't even do well in the Utah Supreme Court
As Attorney General, Shurtleff sided with school voucher proponents when he issued an official legal opinion stating that under a second law (HB174), private school vouchers would still be funded even if voters rejected the primary voucher bill (HB 148) in a November referendum.[5] On June 8, 2007, it took the Utah Supreme Court only hours to rule unanimously that the second law (HB 174) would also be nullified if voters reject the primary voucher bill.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
Questions:

Why 14 children?
Is the chief a native american?
Does anybody care about this outside of Fox viewers?
Why are there so many right wingnut climbers?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:43pm PT
15 minutes is over. Nobody cares. Crazies showed up, traitor got his cattle. Rest of the story will take place out of Hannity's show. Court.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 10:58pm PT
The militia wackos have their poster boy for a few weeks or maybe even months.
The Feds have waited 20 years for their money, they can wait a bit longer.
When things have cooled down and the wackos have found another stooge the Treasury Dept will issue an arrest warrant. Bundy will eventually be arrested and away he goes. Just like Warren Jeffs and Al Capone.
And if any of his progeny think they'll get the land he actually owns, they'll be very disappointed. They'll only get what's left after it's sold by the Feds. Which after $1million I'm sure won't be much.

Again I ask, why hasn't an attorney taken up Bundy's case pro bono in the last 20 years? A great way to make a name for himself. One way or the other.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:00pm PT
High Trav

^That's what I was thinking, though not in as much detail.

Thanks for the link to the ruling. I'll read it. I'm wondering if anyone alse will or is it better to just let Hannity boil it down to a more palatable form.

John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
I read the link. thanks High Traverse. to me it shows that he was depending on his belief that the land isn't controlled by the feds. Seems like a poor argument.
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:05pm PT
In summation...a Mormon prick who doesn't recognize the US governments authority let's his frickin herd run rampant on public land, my land, your land, and refuses to pay the $ he owes. The BLM tries to get rid of the offending beasts and wacko right wing terrorists, turning off Duck Dynasty, grab their camo's & AR's & show up prepared for war. To prevent bloodshed, the feds retreat. The wingnut extremists, aided by their friends in the extremist media, declare victory.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
oh, they would probably say weak sauce

and more importantly, a False Equivalency on the grandest scale

comparison wise and all.....
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
As a few have said this is far from over.

Bundy will be held accountable only the lunatic fringe could convince them self of any other out one.

Plain as day to see unless you are certifiably nuts.
mrtropy

Trad climber
Nor Cal
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:20pm PT
I guess if he can break the laws our land land I can go gut shoot a few of the cows on my our land for kicks. That scum back rancher should be shot.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Craig Holman, a lobbyist for the non-partisan advocacy group Public Citizen, said the senator is dealing with "an iffy ethical landscape"
Public Citizen are not shrinking violets. They call it "iffy". Fair enough.
Just business as usual between the 1% and lawmakers all over this country. After all Corporations are people, all the Supreme Court justices appointed by Reagan and BushI say so.
It's good this is being scrutinized.

It has nothing to do with Bundy. Another red herring.
He's been in arrears for 20 years. Long before solar power was more than a wet dream for anybody except us geeks (and Jimmy Carter). If the government finally wants the cattle off the land for a solar power project, so much the better. And don't worry, us bleeding heart Climate Change Believing Environmentalists will be watching out for the Desert Tortoise.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:29pm PT
No I do to trust our government even one little bit. Never have never will.

I just trust a bunch of militant backward red necks much much less....

John M

climber
Apr 13, 2014 - 11:50pm PT
Like them environmentalists that terminated them hundreds of tortoises that they were charged with their safe keeping.

Wonderful.

High traverse already explained why they had to be destroyed. Budget cuts and the tortoises that couldn't released back into the wild had diseases that could spread among the wild population.

You do understand these kinds of things Chief. Don't you? You supported budget cuts. So you have nothing to say about that. And you should understand having to kill animals to keep disease from spreading. Mad cow comes to mind.

So why not drop this kind of nonsense inflammatory statement and prove you are a decent and honorable man. One who doesn't cotton with spreading lies and half truths.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:10am PT
They released as many of them as they could. Try to figure that part out. And the diseases partly come from some of them having been pets which the owners no longer wanted and were going to release into the wild, which could have caused problems for the wild population, so the conservancy took them in and tried to care for them, but their budget was cut.

stop making up wild theories chief. It doesn't become you.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:25am PT


Here is where it says that they took them in from pet owners. These animals live a long time. many were pets before tortoises were declared an endangered species.

http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/fo/lvfo.html
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:39am PT
good night Chief. I think mostly you just want to be argumentative.

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/tortoise/health.shtml

you can keep animals that have been pets. Its not safe to release most of them back into the wild once they have been a pet.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:59am PT
seems like its the militia who are the guessers.

they want his land because their is oil under it.

gong.. no oil

its state land

gong.. nope.. federal land

its about water

gong.. not much water there

Ried is pushing this because he is involved in solar energy

gong.. this started well before solar was viable in this manner




Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:01am PT
How very interesting---or not.

Best wishes to: High Traverse for all his well-thought out posts vs

the most obsessive blogger I've ever suffered: Da Chief!

Thanks to all who have posted: on this stupidly-fun thread.


Oh! and the grazing photo that "da-chief" posted repeatedly was photoshopped. No grass on the higher elevations in that area.

Here's how it really looks.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:05am PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:11am PT
^^^ Yes please.


Once the construction dust settles it is pretty limited impact.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:15am PT
Tioga, I don't think it's just about Bundy either. From a sociological standpoint, it will be fascinating to see how it plays out, especially in an election year.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:18am PT
OK Da Chief:

I can handle the solar site vs the cow-sh#t.


It looks like better solar or tortoise land than cattle land.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:19am PT

And here is California's own Kern Valley Oil field.
Looks like paradise for the Chuff.


Thing is after the construction phase an oil field is still an environmental disaster but a Solar farm will allow the land and habitats to regenerate.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:24am PT
No Chuff I don't "NEED" to post anywhere. I CHOOSE to post where I will.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:27am PT
tioga-

I think that's probably what will happen in the long run. The age of the average farmer and rancher in the U.S. is currently 67, the same age as Clive Bundy.A better way of handling the situation probably would be to say his generation is the last who will receive grazing permits and let that way of life die gracefully.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:35am PT
You have some strange fixation on fecal fecundity.

Drill baby Drill. Burn all you want we'll drill for more.
The Koch Bros need to buy more politicians.



Sparse barren land is piss poor pasture for big fat cows.
Switch to Buffalo. Healthier for you and less destructive to raise.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:41am PT
What the hell does your construction pics have to do with the long term viability of solar farms.
You really are a petulant child aren't ya Chuff n Puff.
Bison can easily thrive on the sparser terrain and limited water resources of the west.
Yes they poop. Don't you remember your favorite book "Everybody Poops"? But they are more "natural" to the Western environment than the invasive cattle species ruining it now.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:46am PT
What about all the displaced cattle from this brand new mega complex that dwarfs the lights of Denver and Minneapolis / St. Paul? Great stuff that Koch Tea you drink.


Oh Chuff n Puff would you rather just Frack Off?


And for the record I have no interest in the East Side and no intent of posting on a thread that doesn't interest me. So blow yourself you limp blowhard.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:47am PT
Chief, you appear to have your solar farms mixed up.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:52am PT
NO! I would greatly prefer that western ranchers switched over to bison but Bundy is a common criminal and I would never support his cause. But I wouldn't mind killing his cows.
Any one got an AR 15 hunting rifle I could borrow?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:55am PT
Natural bison meat makes Western cattle taste like the putrid hormone pumped cancer that it is.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:57am PT
Why Asswipe? Why don't you go to the Crimea and make peace.
Wake up dude you are a dumb ass!
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:07am PT


Wow, 80 posts on this one thread..just today...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:10am PT
What do you call an Islamic cow?

A Mooslim.




What goes "OOOOOOO"

A cow with no lips.






A DEA Agent arrives at a farm and tells the farmer, "I need to inspect your property for illegal crops."

The old farmer says "Okay, but don't go in that field over there."

The DEA Agent says "Mister, I have the full authority of the Federal Government," reaching into his pocket and pulling out a badge, "See this badge? This badge means I am allowed to go wherever I wish -- on any land I want. No questions asked or answers given. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand me???"

The farmer nods politely and lets the agent go about his business while the farmer returns to his chores.

Eventually, the farm hears loud screams and sees the DEA Agent in "that field" running for his life. Close behind, the farmer's biggest and meanest bull is gaining ground on him with each step.

The farmer throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs.... "Your badge! Show him your badge!!!"



What do you call a cow with no legs?

Ground Beef




Now play nice or I'll start posting some Gary Larson cowtoons.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:59am PT
How dare those tyrannical Feds impose restrictions on what crap we can pump into pigs.
To arms, to arms time to water the tree of stupidity.
stuv

climber
NL
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:55am PT
Yo, g'mornin' y'all! Is this a development or am I just behind on the story?

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79897809/
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 14, 2014 - 09:58am PT
<http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2014/gold-butte-roundup-04-12-2014.html>;

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:08am PT
So is he related to Ted Bundy or not? Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Can I get a high-five here, dudes?

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:11am PT
From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece.

I did not kow that. Thanks (The) Chief!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:12am PT
It is amazing that anyone is defending this dipsh#t.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:31am PT
Since 1994, I have participated in over 134 rebolting projects (128 of those being ASCA Sponsored) throughout the lower 48. Replacing well over 1500 bolts and anchors that most assuredly would have ended up in someones fatal demise.


Wow...congrats..we did that much in two weekends at Penitente and Shelf Rd.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 10:48am PT
Rick is persuasive? GOT IT! Nice.

An example of his stellar persuasiveness in addressing the issues:

Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants: Endangered Status for the Sierra Nevada Yellow-legged Frog and the Northern Distinct Population Segment of the Mountain Yellow-legged Frog, and Threatened Status for the Yosemite Toad
Document ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0001 Docket ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100
Comment ID: FWS-R8-ES-2012-0100-0202


This is totally insane. Not are you going to cease the access of fisherman and backpackers that have a long standing heritage, but you will be shutting down several business that have been operating for decades in the area, by this action. The town of Bishop and Toms Place depend on this recreation for their summer livelihood. By imposing these actions and restrictions, you will threaten many businesses in town and that of Toms Place that depend on the access and fishing recreation in these areas. Wrong Wrong and more Wrong. You folks just do not get it. Rick Poedtke

Bishop and Tom's Place, depend on it? Wtf, RICK? I thought ya'll were all self reliant up there. Turns out yer just serfs to the angler set (when you're not suckling at Uncle Sam's, sweet sweet teat that is)
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Bundy was being railroaded by the stacked deck combo of corporate, political, and judicial concerns working in concert to accomplish a taking of his land, prosperity and lifestyle. Sometimes civil disobediance, be it unarmed or armed, is your right and duty as a citizen. I'm glad a small army saw likewise. Hope this can be a small start in speaking truth to corrupt power.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:03am PT
Last weekend, I had the pleasure of meeting up with an old friend at Josh. Perfect weather both in the sun and shade...though I will admit, it seemed a little chilly in the late afternoon on the east side of Sports Challenge Rock, and out of the sun.. you see, we were clad in T-Shirts and pants and shorts, respectively, me in pants and Rob in shorts. Meet a couple nice you local Yucca Valley climbers who were working the Beaver and we did Clean and Jerk and we share top ropes, though I'll admit, that I'm not in the best of shape... down right piss poor if I'm being honest, which at my age, why not? After all, who cares, really about a couple washed up old dudes climbing standard fare on a Spring weekend, except to say, it is great fun and good climbing and you meet soon very nice people and have nice chat with people and catch up with your friend and just enjoy being alive and active and laughing about old and new times and people you know...imitating how friends talk and all...
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:06am PT
to accomplish a taking of his land,

What part of it's not his land, i.e. he does not own the land in question, are you having trouble understanding Sumner?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Bundy was being railroaded by the stacked deck combo of corporate, political, and judicial concerns working in concert to accomplish a taking of his land,

His land? WTF? the issue is 20 years of illegal range use of Federally managed "Public Lands".

It is NOT HIS LAND
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:14am PT
If you have a perpetual grazing easement you have land (rights). El Cap. It takes so much range in NV to raise cattle that if his easement was taken his cattle operation would have been downsized to the point of being uneconomic.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Personal Responsibility is only for Libtards.

Real MEN and TeaBaggers don't need personal responsibility they have guns and a mob law mentality.
For the next confrontation I would love to see a couple of Black Hawk gunships filled with bearded manly men in battle fatigues land in the middle of the whack nut vigilante mob who step out guns loaded to water the tree of personal responsibility and say "Any takers?"
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:22am PT
You are a low grade moron Bruce. I assume you would show up to a gunfight armed only with your acidic tongue, eh?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:22am PT
Philo...I think that would be cool , only they should be wearing camo-thongs...
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:26am PT
And by the way The Chuff I said post up a TR which stands for Trip Report not a chest thumping self aggrandizing resume'.
You "single handedly" have proven you can shoot your gun and your mouth off but you are either shooting blanks or scoring Maggie's Drawers.

This guy thinks he lives in a sovereign country called the State of Nevada and doesn't acknowledge the US government.
Does he think the Nevada Militia won WWII while Unkle Sam was busy trying to round up everyones guns and cows.
He is more full of fertilizer than his pathetic heard of methane dispensers.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:26am PT
When you show up to a debate armed with machine guns

I would feel so much safer just knowing that Bruce Kay will be there to point out "its not fair"
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:29am PT
The NPS does charge to climb in some parks: 45/head to climb Rainier, and 360/head to climb Denali, for example.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:33am PT
I defend them the same way I fought the USFS for over two years on my own to get the 36 year Williamson/Baxter year round Closure, opened for all to access year round with no restrictions other than having to get the proverbial WP.

I did not know that. Thanks again [The] Chief!!
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:34am PT
It takes so much range in NV to raise cattle that if his easement was taken his cattle operation would have been downsized to the point of being uneconomic.

So Sumner, what you're telling me is that this guy is DEPENDENT on the Govt. This rugged individualist is dumb enough to try to raise cattle on land so marginal that he has to rely on the good graces of Uncle Sugar. Left to raise them on his own land, he would go under. What happened to self sufficient you Johnny Galts love to crow about? This guy is just another "taker", one of Romney's famous 47%.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:34am PT
Let's try this on for size. Does anybody here defend Ted Bundy? Maybe we can get a baseline.

philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 11:36am PT



When you show up to a debate armed with machine guns

Fine, I'll see your machine gun and raise you a...

and a


Good luck with that "Zero Sum" game.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
There is a war on the range throughout the west. The small time ranchers are being systematically removed from there land by corrupt enviro NGO's and corporate interests, assisted by Pols ( who all seem to get rich despite a middle income salary) and ideological judges appointed by the same tainted pols. They have weight of the treasury behind them, therefore fighting the system in the stacked deck of the judiciary has vanishingly small odds. If you took the time to actually study what is happening out on the range you would find the ranchers are by and large good stewards of the land and the ecosystem fairs better from their presence.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
At least they weren't illegally camping. Bullets would have been flying in that case.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece.

I don't remember there being anywhere close to that many climber or otherwise heli-rescues during that period. At least from 1981 to 1984, when I was there for a season. That would be an average of 8 or so heli rescues per year.

So you can replace bolts. Have you ever climbed El Cap?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
I'm sure glad to see ReasoningRon back in the groove!!!!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
Chief wrote: You Bobda are the real hero here... I want your picture to hang up in the shetter up at our community gun range.


You are a sick little f*#k.

Big f*#king deal...you were in the navy, you got fed, paid and retired from it. To f*#king dumb to do anything else.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
Again with the fecal fantasies. Chuffeur you are fixated.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:28pm PT
Oh base.... Read the post ...

Oh, I read the post. You said,

From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece.

59 CLiMBER SAR ops?

Sorry Queef, your regular boasting, whether it is 30 trout per day or your 200 yard 12 gauge group just reminds me of a certain personality type that I have encountered now and then throughout my life.



HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
Some good will come from the "armed response" by Bundy's supporters.
Many of them now have their guns, faces, rigs etc photographed for posterity.
A good bet is some of them are, or will be, violent offenders.

Next time theres a shooting at an Army base, Mosque or a Jewish retirement community in their area the LEOs will quietly check them out. Like the neo-Nazi they just picked up for yesterday's murders in Kansas.
The Law has a very long memory.

Bundy is a common criminal, a trespasser and a thief. He has had his days in court, several times. He cannot be excused just because his "beliefs" differ from the law. Or because by rousing up the armed anti-establishment rabble he has become convinced he is in the right.
I ask for the last time: where is the licensed attorney who is taking his case pro bono? Or on any other terms. He's certainly not showing his face in the media.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
In electricity positive poles attracts to negative poles.

Maybe you guys are working against the laws of nature?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:32pm PT
That's magnetism numbnut.


With electricity if you touch a positive wire to a negative wire it goes sparky spark spark.
Unless you can put the opposite polarities to some use like turning on a light to see with it's just sparks.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
philo, you're assuming that nimbnuts knows that Cats have a positive ground.
Heard about a guy last week who learned that the hard way when he went to jump start it.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
Only slightly off topic and not to pretend any equivalence with Bundy's crowd (just likely similitude)

Who was wearing this shirt when arrested?
was wearing a T-shirt at that time with a picture of Abraham Lincoln and the motto: sic semper tyrannis ('Thus always to tyrants'), the state motto of Virginia and also the words shouted by John Wilkes Booth after he shot Lincoln.[51] On the back, it had a tree with a picture of three blood droplets and the Thomas Jefferson quote, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."[52] Three days later, while still in jail, ... was identified as the subject of the nationwide manhunt.

and wrote to a friend:
Those who betray or subvert the Constitution are guilty of sedition and/or treason, are domestic enemies and should and will be punished accordingly.

and to another friend:
I have sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic and I will. And I will because not only did I swear to, but I believe in what it stands for in every bit of my heart, soul and being. I know in my heart that I am right in my struggle, Steve. I have come to peace with myself, my God and my cause. Blood will flow in the streets, Steve. Good vs. Evil. Free Men vs. Socialist Wannabe Slaves. Pray it is not your blood, my friend.

and then acted:
...felt the need to personally reconnoiter sites of rumored conspiracies. He visited Area 51 in order to defy government restrictions on photography and went to Gulfport, Mississippi to determine the veracity of rumors about United Nations operations. These turned out to be false; the Russian vehicles on the site were being configured for use in U.N.-sponsored humanitarian aid efforts. Around this time, ... and ... also began making bulk purchases of ammonium nitrate, an agricultural fertilizer, for resale to survivalists, since rumors were circulating that the government was preparing to ban it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
Jus like in ur car or house, and here on ST. When you have an excess of positive electrons they are diverted to the common ground bar. Thus consumed by negativity. Jus like here on ST.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
Mr . Bundy is going to have a very difficult time selling his cows, acquiring new cows, or maintaining a bank account with > $.04. There are other ways to get the cows without getting the cows.

The idiot has lost; he's finished.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
Mr. BASE... King of the Hypocrites here on the Taco

So you admit that you lied when you said "Climber" SAR ops?

If you are anything like your online persona, you are a pitiful human being.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
I just got off the Skype interview with a journalist from Scientific American who is researching an article on lightning strike survivors for OUTSIDE magazine. He asked what went through my mind at the time I was struck. I said "About a half a million volts".
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
A friend , driving at night, ran into a range locust ( cow ) out in area 51 and killed the poor thing...Besides totaling his economy car , he had to pay the rancher something like $400 to replace the dead cow... You'd think this was India..?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Yeah this rancher is a true Amerikan Patriot. Just like Phil Robertson, Ted Nuggent and George Zimmerman.

Your role models are PHucked RongO.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
Hmmmm.....no takers yet on my quiz
he/she also said, ex post facto:
If there is a hell, then I'll be in good company with a lot of fighter pilots who also had to bomb innocents to win the war.

final clue, was incarcerated in:
the same cell block as Ted Kaczynski, Luis Felipe and Ramzi Yousef. Ramzi made frequent, unsuccessful attempts to convert ... to Islam
Birds of a feather.
Except which one's fate was different from the other 3?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
From 1978 through 1984 I participated in 59 actual Climber SAR Ops in the Yosemite Valley and SEKI NP. Putting my sorry selfish ass on the line so that they could be brought down safely and go home in one piece

I did not know that and apparently neither does anyone else. [The] Chief, I think you're going to need to post up the details in order to convince the hodads on the ST. Let me give Herr Braun a buzz, I believe he was in town for a few weekends during that period.



BZZZZZZZZZZZz ... Herr Braun dere? .............


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
I say shoot this f*#ker's cows haul them to the slaughter house and give the meat to local homeless shelters. Send this Anti-American outlaw packin'. And give the pussies in the vigilante mob a super sized can of whup ass.

Oh and send the bill for the op to Sheldon Adelson.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
Better yet send the wanna be militiamen to see some real action.
I am sure the sight of Ted Nuggent, Phil Robertson and Rancher Bundy would fill the Russian army with dread.



Oh I'm sorry what caliber did you say your surrogate penis was?
Well stick it in here and see how it measures up.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:41pm PT
C Bundy=Welfare Queen.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
High...was his first name Timothy?. :-)
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
If you carry a f*#king gun period concealed or unconcealed wherever you go you got problems. If you carry one unconcealed you are a freak show lunatic and need to have yourself committed!

Thank you Philo..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
Makers, Takers and Fakers at Bundy Ranch.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/13/1291730/-Makers-takers-and-fakers-at-Nevada-s-Bundy-Ranch

If nothing else, the tense standoff at the Bundy ranch in Nevada provided a helpful reminder of what it means to be a patriot in America. There are many things one may do and a small handful of things one must do to be considered a true patriot. Real patriots vote. They vaccinate their kids. Real patriots pay their taxes. And genuine patriots don't threaten government officials with violence over laws with which they disagree. Especially when they use lofty rhetoric about "sovereignty" and "liberty" and "tyranny" as a cynical façade for illegally padding one's own bank account.

Which is why Cliven Bundy and his supporters, along with much of the media covering the confrontation northeast of Las Vegas, are misrepresenting what ABC News dubbed "the Range War." The Christian Science Monitor, for example, turned a case of freeloading into a crusade for freedom:

In the sparse Nevada rangeland this weekend, US western history came alive with a fight over cattle that threatened to turn violent.
In the end, federal land managers backed down, giving rancher Cliven Bundy his 400 head of cattle. The cows, which had been rounded up on public land where Mr. Bundy's herd had grazed for years, represented a classic clash of values: Old West traditions and practices versus New West environmental sensibilities.

Please read below the fold for more on this story.
But the land where Bundy grazes his cattle, like most of the state of Nevada, doesn't belong to him but to the American people, all 315 million of us. He owes our government $1 million for his decades of unpaid use of those lands. He has repeatedly and rightly lost in court for a long list of reasons, including the inconvenient truth that the federal government owned the territory before Nevada became a state. And along with the abolition of slavery, the illegitimacy of secession myriad other issues decisively settled by the Civil War is this: states only have residents and only the United States of America has citizens. So, Cliven Bundy is utterly and dangerously wrong when he claims he is "a citizen of Nevada and not a citizen of the territory of the United States," or as he triumphantly did this weekend:

"There is no deal here. The citizens of America and Clark County went and took their cattle. There was no negotiations. They took these cattle."
Imagine for a moment that low-income minority residents illegally set up a community vegetable garden on a parcel of land in San Francisco's federally owned Presidio. Or contemplate Mexican migrant workers running a small farmer's market on land belonging to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. The same militia members now armed to the teeth in Nevada and their right-wing fellow travelers would doubtlessly denounce the "takers" and volunteer to eject the scofflaws by force.
Instead, the friends of the freeloaders in Nevada declare Bundy's scam to shortchange Uncle Sam is "not about cows, it's about freedom."

To put it in words cattleman Cliven Bundy would understand, that's bullsh#t. And it most certainly is not patriotism.


There are many things one may do and a small handful of things one must do to be considered a true patriot. Real patriots vote. They vaccinate their kids. Real patriots pay their taxes. And genuine patriots don't threaten government officials with violence over laws with which they disagree.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
Is prostitution still legal in Nevada? Sounds like it may be Mr. Bundy's turn in the barrel.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Bob D'A
Bingo
For the Grand Prize, how was Timothy different from his equally infamous block mates?

ahh yes, the Daily Kos. Always good reading

Is prostitution still legal in Nevada?
Not in Clark County.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
Aww I feel bad for chief

Caught in a lie, now has to abandon his favorite thread
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 02:58pm PT
If you carry a **f*#king guy** period concealed or unconcealed wherever you go you got problems. If you carry one unconcealed you are a freak show lunatic and need to have yourself committed!

If you carry one of those you got bigger problems than how you are going to conceal him.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:00pm PT
philo
diff'rnt strokes fer' diff'rnt folks, doncha know?

Wade has the most succinct and ironic summary.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
Philo,

Anyone except for a very very far reaching right wing freak show wing nuts interpret this situation as the article above that you posted portrays it.

I have talked face to face with an equal amount of democrats and republics whom have taken the time to educate them self on both sides of this argument. The unanimous opinion is that Mr. Bundy and all those that organized in his defense are a bunch of freak show extremest wack jobs and if anything are reflecting poorly upon a Republican Party whom image even most every republic will admit is in need of a despite overhaul if it is ever appeal to the general public again enough to win a presidential election.

Beyond that the opinion on both sides is those people are a menace to society and should be locked up. Republican or democrat throw away the key!
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:04pm PT
Let's see the rescue logs. Also, need to see pics of the bolts and anchors you replaced.

Let the people count for themselves.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
Thanks for working on SAR Chief. Good stuff. But I still don't see why Bundy is getting support on this.

?





















philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Sanskara you do realize I was having fun with your typo don't you?
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
Bob hits it outa the park!

I think we have all been thinking the same thing..
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
Wow Chuffer so defensive. Hit a nerve or something?

Oh well Posers gotta pose.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:12pm PT
I'm fairly certain these "militias" (their word) don't call themselves Republicans. They are likely on the right fringe of the tea baggers.
The sad fact is these pathetic morons somehow think they are aggrieved parties and have the right to confront the Law.
Let's ask them how they feel about the Black Panthers who were in fact aggrieved parties, armed themselves and some of whom were gunned down by the police. It's doubtful these wackos even know their US history.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:17pm PT
pretty sure they vote Republican though.....

being confused as to who is the "taker" and stuff like that
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
Why should they bother to learn the history of a Country they don't believe in?
A nation they think has no right to exist.
History is for pussy libtards who don't know how to shoot first and ask questions later.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:20pm PT
High wrote: Let's ask them how they feel about the Black Panthers who were in fact aggrieved parties, armed themselves and some of whom were gunned down by the police. It's doubtful these wackos even know their US history.


Well the Black Panthers are...Black and the Brown Berets are...Brown. They don't belong here.

These are good old white boys playing militia...it's all good.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
What a fuking pathetic display of ignorance this whole right-wing tard fest became. Makes me sad that the (somewhat) intelligent hicks I know will be lumped in with these idiots.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
Phil

Yes I know you are just f*#king with me..

Still I fixed it...
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:01pm PT
Chief wrote: But then what do you expect from sheep that want the Gov't to save them from themselves.

So funny.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
For the most part I think the government is a giant POS. And I don't expect them to save me from anything.

I just think right wing militia types are ten times worse.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
Blue, Ron and Cheif no better than this and cant see that they are the same dam thing...


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Chief wrote: You're batting 1000.


With a fluff-boy like you pitching, really not that hard.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
this is a great thread
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
I thought chief was a catcher...?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Bob's batting 1000 and Huff n Puff Chuff keeps shooting Maggie's Drawers.
Sanskara

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
Blanks he's shooting blanks..

I life spent shooting blanks it all makes sense now...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:07pm PT
"Couchmaster: Not defending the man Bundy.

Rather the operation that is being conducted at Bundy for reasons that so many here are too fking blind to see and accept as real."

I'm with that Chief. I remember when the BLM didn't have a police arm, let alone the massive military style police force they seem to have now. They still don't need one, but every little bureaucrat wants their own police force these days, and they (sadly) get it. Your tax dollars at work. I don't see it is reason to support someone who is breaking the law. Why should Bundy be able to undercut honest hard working ranchers who are paying for range? I feel like I must be missing something here.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:32pm PT

I remember a time when men served their country, came home, and shut up about it.

I admire them a lot more than the look at me, read about me, see me, wave the flaggers.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:42pm PT
That cop spraying those kids actually received disability payments for pain & suffering resulting from that event.

Don't have time to find the link, we're headed to Glacier NP to watch the Blood Moon tonight. (stay away clouds)

Have fun arguing everyone.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
Militarization of "your" local P.D! Note the ex-military "Fritz" helmet on the cop with the spray.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Brokedown, you're a rancher. Why should Bundy get to graze for free and undercut your price? If all will be revealed later - as Chief says, why are other ranchers supporting it now?
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
Such brave patriots, hiding behind the skirts of their women:

The Blaze, the conservative news site affiliated with Glenn Beck, flagged the comments made Monday by Richard Mack, identified as a former Arizona sheriff who had joined more than 1,000 other protesters alongside Cliven Bundy, who has been feuding with BLM over his use of federal land to graze his cattle.

We were actually strategizing to put all the women up at the front,” Mack said in a Fox News clip pulled by The Blaze. “If they are going to start shooting, it’s going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rogue federal officers.”

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
I don't think it's so much this particular cow situation but the overall sense, to the conscious, that our Federal regime is completely out of control. IMO they are absolutely begging someone to start shooting. They are trying so hard to start WWIII overseas on multiple fronts. Perhaps they want to kick off a little internal rebellion.

They're broke. Flat out broke with astronomical debt. MOAR WAR. The only way to provide cover and blame for the economic situation.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
Couch-

That's a complex question for someone in ranching, especially for one who doesn't have a very good opinion of the BLM in the first place. But in the spirit of informing everyone here, especially those who think they know it all but don't.

I'll preface my comments with the statement that none of us here have all the facts, in spite of those who have formed their opinions based on the MSM news thinking otherwise.

The land in question was at one time "open range," which means anyone could use it who could "make Beneficial use thereof." There is also the issue of water rights out there, and water rights accrue to the first appropriator, again "make beneficial use thereof." View these rights similar to mining claims. The miners back in the Comstock Lode era could go out on public lands and stake mining claims for various minerals and take title in perpetuity by making certain improvements and working the claim for some set number of years. In those days this land was WORTHLESS, and only with the advent of the BLM have "grazing fees" been imposed. I suspect Mr. Bundy believes he has a claim to the grazing "in perpetuity" because his ancestors established their claim thereto.

These comments aside, any grazing fees levied on this sort of grazing land would be disproportionately high for value received. If Bundy wants to ranch this sort of schitty land for free, I have no objections whatsoever.

What set me on edge over tis whole issue is the heavy handed approach of the BLM, coming out with the excessive show of force, and bringing out the big bus size paddy wagon to deal with protestors. That was not only bad PR, but really pissed off the locals as well.

I really don't care what anyone else her thinks about Mr. Bundy and his actions. If the grazing land had NOT been converted into a Desert Tortoise Preserve, and his usage subsequently restricted, this never would have occurred. The facts just now coming to light about the Solar Green energy development is the REASON, even though Tortoises and Grazing Fees are simply the EXCUSE for this whole exercise in futility.

So...the BLM spends in excess of a million taxpayer dollars to collect and REMOVE THE CATTLE which were interfering with Rory Reid's deal with the Chinese. The manner in which this occurred is disgusting to me...a military veteran who is appalled by the action of "our" government.

So, to answer your question, Couch: no it doesn't bother me a bit for him to get "free" grazing on utterly worthless (other than to the Chinese) land. I personally wouldn't pay a dollar a year per head for what he's doing. That means I wouldn't pay $900 in order to graze 900 open range cows on that sort of pasture. If they think it's worth Millions, they're fulla' schittt.

Official "end of rant." Now let the mud slinging begin!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
Nice picture Chief...bunch of old fat white guys with fat old white women on Harleys. The freaking guy in the front has about eight chins.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 06:59pm PT
Chief wrote: And Five Bronze Stars.


Really...like you know him??


Maybe medals for winning a hot dog eating contest.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
I think the hot dog trophy is a belt

which is kind of ironic, should be a sweatpants string
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:05pm PT
ATB-

This isn't, and never has been about Desert Tortoises. Read some of the above information, where tortoises are being euthanized because there are too many of them and some are "sick." What a bunch of horse crap. Yes, I love turtles, but tortoises even more. The ranchers kill off the natural predators (coyotes and ravens) and the population of tortoises increase. I'm all for tortoises.

My previous interaction with the BLM was also in regard to an "endangered species." The Preble's Jumping Mouse. It was listed by "Biodiversity" as endangered, and without much hoo haw, it was approved for protection under the ESA. My ranch, as well as some mountain land we owned was identified by the USF & WS as prime habitat for this little mouse. After 3 years of looking, not a single Preble's Jumping Mouse was ever found in the State of Wyoming. During that time there were severe restriction on burning weeds in irrigation ditches and plowing fields too close to said ditches. The Boys at the BLM were supposed to be the "enforcers" even on deeded private lands. My ENTIRE RANCH is deeded acreage and no leased or government lands were ever involved. But I was subjected to scrutiny anyway. So my attitude to the BLM: Fukkem!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:19pm PT




**
On Kilter: Bundy won, America lost**



OPINION – Mark Twain famously said, “Loyalty to country always. Loyalty to government when it deserves it.” Until today I had always been one to lean on the improbability that the government ever really deserves it. But when the government chose to back down to avert the bloodshed of innocent life, while Cliven Bundy shamelessly put innocent life in harms way for his own agenda, I knew to whom loyalty belonged.

As Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie announced the stand-down of the Bureau of Land Management’s round up of Bundy’s cattle from federal land, there was reported to be a collective sigh of relief. It was over.

The round up, which began last week, which was adjudicated by federal court order and was being carried out by the BLM as well as adjoining agencies and civilian contractors, drew supporters for Bundy ranging from sympathetic ranchers and citizens to armed militias who mingled throughout out the crowds in the area.

The spirit of de-escalation was however short lived
The spirit of de-escalation was however short lived.

Cliven Bundy came forth after Gillespie, spoke and betrayed the terms of the stand-down announcing a series of demands that included but are not limited to the disarming of federal agents, and the removal of gates to national parks. This is consistent with the statements made last Wednesday by his son Ryan Bundy on the Perspectives Show with Bryan Hyde and Kate Dalley.

Later, Bundy gave the order to the militia which led to a tense standoff in a wash with dozens of Las Vegas Metro Police. The militia took their stand surrounded by women and children also in protest and demanded that the cattle be released.

Deputy Chief Tom Roberts, of Las Vegas Metro, then made an agreement with Bundy’s son Ammon, to release the cattle held there within 30 minutes if the crowd agreed to disperse.

There was nothing peaceful about it
Advocates for Bundy are hailing this a victory for not only Bundy, but for America as a whole and inferring that this is in fact a demonstration of the power of peaceful rebellion. Of civil disobedience. Despite that, there was nothing peaceful about it.
In actuality, this has perhaps done something quite different.

This event has changed the collective definition of the meaning of civil disobedience in America for the worst
The stand-down gave a symbolic victory for radical anti-government militia groups, but more importantly, this event has changed the collective definition of the meaning of civil disobedience in America for the worst.

In an article in The Southwest Journal, a compelling case for the distinctions between criminal behavior for selfish gain and civil disobedience for the greater good of people is made.

The main thrust of such distinctions is that a true act of civil disobedience is marked by an emphasis by the disobedient acquiescing to the knowledge that they are breaking the law and accept the penalty for it in the interest of the common good.

Bundy does not think he has done a single thing wrong and furthermore, revealed his true character in the matter when in lieu of not getting his innocuous demands for a version of government take down and overthrow, he simply demanded people take back his cattle. Perhaps his sole motive all along despite alluding to some fashion of patriotism.

But beyond such distinctions another compelling case can be made for the media’s role in ratcheting up the fanaticism that ultimately was the cause of the breakdown of the agreement made between the BLM and Bundy as well as the decision to cease the roundup.

He appealed to the nature of mob rule and incited potential violence – even when peace had been brokered
Furthermore, Bundy himself is responsible for doing less for the cause of putting into check a presumed-overbearing federal government. Instead, he appealed to the nature of mob rule and incited potential violence – even when peace had been brokered.

In a 1968 article by Delbert D. Smith, the case for the deterioration of meaningful and effective civil disobedience as well as the media and general public’s culpability thereof, some 35 years later, still holds an almost prophetic weight. Smith writes:

One difficulty that the courts face with cases of civil disobedience is that the techniques are constantly changing because of the necessity of attracting public attention and notice. The ‘news’ content of the event and its adaptability to television or magazine coverage have become important criteria for determining the nature of civilly disobedient acts. It can be argued that the most undesirable forms of civil disobedience have developed as a result of the irresponsibility of our mass media.” However, the alternative course of action, which would be to prescribe some form of news management, seems equally undesirable. News suppression would not be viable in any event since the news media are able to ‘color’ an event simply by their use, non-use or placement of a particular article.

While it is possible to assert that the mass media manufacture pseudo-events by over-dramatizing incidents involving civil disobedience, and it may be that some racial problems have been accentuated because of uncritical and ‘sensational’ news coverage, it is also true that the frustration of nonviolent demonstrations by denying them press coverage may have the effect of precipitating violent demonstrations. The emotional effect of the newspaper, since it reports events that have occurred in the past in a formal manner that people have come to expect, is minimal compared to live television coverage which many times searches for the most dramatic (and possibly most unrepresentative) incidents that make for interesting visual imagery at the expense of balanced coverage. If obtaining publicity is one of the major inducements to acts of civil disobedience, and violent demonstrations receive more coverage than nonviolent ones, it is probable that the frequency of the latter form of demonstration will increase.

Further, the easy designation of every protest movement as an act of nonviolent civil disobedience by the mass media without any concern for particular factors such as the public nature of the act, its illegality, or its conscientious nature may lead to the creation of a false public impression of the permissible limits of civil disobedience and one that is at variance with that found in the courts. The community standards that result may create difficulties in law enforcement that would not result if these standards accurately reflected a more sophisticated concept of what constituted civil disobedience.

As each act of so-called civil disobedience witnessed on the mass media is struck down by the courts, people will begin to lose faith in the legitimacy of civil disobedience as a socially tolerable form of protest.

The Bundy Range War was perpetuated by an irresponsible media vying for nothing more than ratings
The Bundy Range War was perpetuated by an irresponsible media vying for nothing more than ratings and an ill-informed and willfully ignorant public who, much like a NASCAR fan, come to the race simply in hopes of seeing a crash.

The militia groups, at least some, may have had noble intentions of some sort in the spirit of constitutionally- laden principles, but ultimately appeared to be the disgruntled and disenfranchised fanatical fringe element looking not for a cause to fight for, but a fight to support and glorify their cause.

The Bundy plea for support in a situation where he had clearly no arguable case in law, was a perfect storm of sorts.

The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint
The BLM and adjoining agencies in this situation are to commended for their prudence and immense restraint shown in the face of outright lawlessness masked as patriotism.

At the standoff in the wash, the true colors of these people was shown when they used for strategical advantage, the presence of women and children while threatening an armed response to the law.

Cliven Bundy, likely a victim to nothing short of his own pride, is no hero
Cliven Bundy, likely a victim to nothing short of his own pride, is no hero. He is certainly no patriot. He used pseudo-American sentiment to quite successfully create an event in history that perhaps once and for all will change how American ranchers in the west are perceived.

The stand-down was necessary to prevent bloodshed, but it must be recognized that if Bundy and a multitude of his supporters, militia friends, and even family members who broke the law, are allowed to go unpunished, anarchy will follow. Other groups, emboldened by the appearance of forcing a stand-down, will only continue to gain momentum. And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.

And as if to embolden the assertion of the fact, a case in Texas is surfacing that while the facts are just becoming revealed, cannot allow for a repeat of the war Bundy started here.

In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right
In the case of Bundy and the Gold Butte designations, the government did it right. They continued to do it right in the face of the lawless behavior of a rancher and his militia henchmen. They earned and deserve our loyalty.

For those who were closest to this event, who were there, who witnessed it first hand, and for everyone afar who will be affected by it, it is of the utmost importance that you speak up in defiance to allowing this stand-down to be the end of this battle. Equal rights under law were attacked, and ultimately defamed by this rancher. We cannot let that stand.

See you out there.



Dallas Hyland is an opinion columnist. The opinions stated in this article are his and not representative of St. George News.

Related posts

Range War: BLM withdraws, cattle released after standoff
Range war: BLM, protesters clash, rancher’s son hit with stun gun
Congressmen urge BLM to keep seized cattle out of Utah
Range war: Rancher’s son arrested by BLM, later released; transport of impound cattle put on hold
Letter to the Editor: The spirit of the West; range war
Letter to the Editor: Bundy forfeited right to graze cattle; counter opinion, range war
Range war: BLM, Iron County to work together on feral horse issue – Iron County
Range war: County resolves to solve wild horse problem if BLM prioritizes Bundy cattle – Iron County
Range war: County Commissioners oppose BLM bringing Bundy cattle to Utah – Washington County
Range war: Rancher stands defiant as BLM moves to impound ‘trespass cattle’
Perspectives: The Bundys vs the bureaucracy
ON Kilter: Trespass cattleman not above the law
BLM, National Park Service close public lands due to trespassing cattle dispute
‘Where’s the line?’ Ivory’s crusade to return public lands to the states
Email: dhyland@stgnews.com

Twitter: @dallashyland

Copyright St. George News, StGeorgeUtah.com Inc., 2014, all rights reserved.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:25pm PT
YAWN! ^^^^^^^^^^

This yet one more MSM OPINION columns.
fluffy

Trad climber
Colorado
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
And furthermore, law enforcement as a whole will be rendered impotent as average people with disputes with current laws begin to wonder if they too can call a militia in to force the police to leave them alone.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess that's not going to keep happening
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
I blame this debacle on Obummer.
That pussy closet Socialist was so scared he crawled under his desk and shet his sef.
Now if our President were a real manly Amurican like Putin heeda rode in there all bare shirted and sweaty ridin' bare back on some stallion lookin' like the love child of Chuck Norris and Steven Segal. Heeda give all them dissidents the what fer. Heeda prolly single handedly rastle all them dawgies to the ground and rebrand em.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:38pm PT
Funny how Huff n Puff Chuff's article uses the Constitution in their argument to defend a man who doesn't believe in it. Except for his misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment.



Killem all Putin is watchin' from Sarah Palin's house.

Serve uppa big ol bowl a shredded beef with pussy giblits.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
Brokedown wrote,

The facts just now coming to light about the Solar Green energy development is the REASON, even though Tortoises and Grazing Fees are simply the EXCUSE for this whole exercise in futility.

I disagree with you as Solar energy was not a viable platform 20 plus years ago when this started. Plus they do not need that entire area for a large solar installation. I believe that It was about creating habitat for the desert tortoise from the beginning, however misguided that was. Is Reid's son involved in Solar energy? Yes.. they are trying to get a place near Laughlin Nevada. But that is a recent development and was not viable 20 plus years ago, when this started.

Was that a good idea? I don't know. Is it sad that this man was losing his way of life? certainly. I do believe that the BLM handled this poorly, in how they went about taking this mans cattle. Some of those officers made huge mistakes. I also feel for someone having to deal with a large bureaucracy. I live surrounded by one. It can be no fun. But that also doesn't immediately mean that they are wrong.

This man has floated so many crazy ideas. Who here accepts his belief that the federal government has no say on land that they own? He says its not federal land. Does anyone here believe that?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:47pm PT
He reneged on the peace agreement when he decided the Feds should disarm and give him and his mob all thhe guns. That didn't happen. Did he think it would?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
I don'[t believe in speed limits and traffic laws. Therefore from now on I'm traveling with an armed vigilante mob.
That way I can speed where ever and when ever I want and if the Man stops me and tries to impose Fed Tyranny on me my gang-o-patriots will make em stand down. In fact everybody should travel with their own armed for armegedon batshitcrazy militia mob so we can all do what we want when ever and where ever we want. What could go wrong?
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
Run the extremist freeloader's bank account dry. His domestic terrorists friends, aka armed ranchers and other lunatic fringe, have had their fun.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Apr 14, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
These ranchers don't care about the turtles do they??

Nope. After grazing cattle there for 100 years it would be hard to convince him that he is the reason the turtles are now suddenly in trouble. And me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:06pm PT

Apr 14, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
Neither does Senator Harry Reid aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand all his mobster buddy"s. Half or more of which are in State or Federal pens.

Got Link?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
Chief...is breaking Bundy breaking the law? Yes or no.


tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
I know nothing of the real details of this situation. What if any credance there is to the land being under state and not fedral control? I do however find it interesting that most if not all of the rednecks that fight the fedral govt over taxes take full advantage of whatever govt money they can get their hands on. I would be very supprised if this guy has not recieved substantual fedral farm subsidies. The real funny thing is they go out and vote repuglican not even realizeing that the repugs are the ones who are cutting their subsidies.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
Solar energy? Yes.. they are trying to get a place near Laughlin Nevada.
Exactly.
The proposed solar development is many miles south of Bunkerville and across the Colorado River and Lake Mead.
Can Bundy's cattle swim the Colorado? Why would they want to?

Solar farm?
Another red herring

this guy has not recieved substantual fedral farm subsidies
He's certainly been subsidized by the US taxpayer to the tune of $300K. His free ride since 1993.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
HighT wrote: Solar farm?
Another red herring



Over 200 miles away.
John M

climber
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
come on Tooth.. the man isn't the reason the tortoises are endangered. Its all the development all over the desert. What the government was trying to do was created a natural preserve. They chose the desert that this man leased for grazing.

Chief, it is appropriate to link your sources.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 14, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
Do you know where this simmering, oozing, pustulating distrust off Government comes from?




Well it's not because of this guy. He's is just the latest recipient of the hate fest. .


No it wasn't Democrats or Liberals or Progressives that created this uneasy situation. They are just the recently branded.



Nope it was the disastrous policies of the double speaking Republicans and Neo-Conservative crack pots like this guy.


Funded by UnAmerican traitors like this...


And managed by soulless Machiavellian murderers like...





Hey The Chuff what was your opinion of the unarmed "Occupy" movement?
Would you have liked them more if they were heavily armed bearded men?