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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 14, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
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Someone asked me why I would recommend the second C2 jug the free line with a minitraxion(below your ascenders for back up) instead of a grigri.
Using a minitraxion instead of a grigri for the free line is key--because the pitches often traverse and you will end up getting back drag on the Grigri, or have to jug sideways and not be able to get the grigri off. With the minitraxion your backup just slides smoothly up the rope below your ascenders. And you have the extra pully out and where you want it, with the guy hauling, should he need it for any reason.
Woot!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 15, 2014 - 12:33am PT
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I'll add the micro trax works great as a backup for free jugging too. Much lighter on your harness and cheaper too.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 15, 2014 - 01:32am PT
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FrankZ, I'm curious about some details of your description of your method. Obviously, if you've used it, it works, but I'm puzzled about a couple of things. One is, you note the jug monkey going up with "extra gear," but how does this gear ever get to the leader? Is the idea that there's enough spare lead rope, which he's short-fixed leading on, to tag up that gear before the jug monkey starts belaying him?
The other thing is, if the jug monkey puts him on belay (as you said), then he has to be belaying and hauling at the same time. That's going to cause problems unless the placements are hard to get and the leader isn't moving up a lot. Not clear why the leader doesn't just keep leading on whatever lead line is left.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 15, 2014 - 02:17am PT
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True Lambone,
But try to haul a full load with it, and you'll probably wish you had the minitraxion, or a spare Protraxion. Of course, this can be avoided by always rigging the haul line for the leader with the Protraxion setup, which is ideal, it just sometimes gets lost in the mix when people are thinking of short fixing, shuttling haulers, etc.
Mongrel -- well the leader will have to be belayed by someone different at some point for the lower belayer to clean, and I'm sure that Zappa is saying that there is enough extra haul line for the leader to pull up the gear, and that the hauler putting him/her on on the grigri and hauling is not going to slow someone down too much. Practice makes perfect with this, for sure, but bigwall leads do tend to be somewhat slower in general.
Now Jim Herson's daughter would probably tell us a very different story, hahaha. It's all relative!
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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2014 - 08:27am PT
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One more question (for Nature & co. system):
c1 leads, fixes lead and haul
c2 jugs haul
c3 cuts bags lose / begins cleaning / c2 puts (ropegun) c1 back on belay
c3 finishes cleaning and hauls
Concern/Unsure:
c1 leader seems short on gear and also to be lacking the haul line on the second lead.
*I'm assuming the haul line slack has been pulled up and dragged with leader on the new pitch. I'm also assuming the gear cleaned on the prior pitch can be sent up via haul line/zip line?
Also: any clarification on 3rd rope/no 3rd rope? Seems to be a point of debate. For sending gear up/ safely lowering out I can see the zip line usefulness.
There was a fair amount written above about a 2nd lead line belay for the haul line jug-monkey. I had not read about that in the materials I've been reviewing (Macnamara, John Long, Freedom of the Hills) - though they mainly address parties of 2.
Again, big thanks for the advice! Very appreciated!
Cheers,
J
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 15, 2014 - 10:36am PT
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A short bit of tag line can help send up the stuff that was cleaned and the haul line if needed.
I really like a 3 person team on a wall, Very little downtime between leads and you have someone to chill with at belays on the longer leads.
Another time saver is having the belayer start hauling while the 3rd is cleaning. If the bags get stuck the cleaner is often in a decent position to give them a tug or shove as needed.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Feb 15, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
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mongrel- with my method the leader is not short fixed. He just keeps climbing past the belay. He pulls up all or most of the extra HAUL line and fixes it. The jug monkey blasts up the haul line with some extra gear to pass to the leader. When the jug monkey gets to the belay he puts the leader on belay, relieving the belayer down below. The leader can then pull the extra gear from the jug monkey up with the extra haul line he pulled up before fixing the rope.
After the belayer below takes the leader off belay, the jug monkey, who now has the leader on belay, pulls up all the extra lead line and fixes it for the guy below to clean. He uses a Gri Gri or whatever because he is also hauling if necessary. One time I remember having the cleaner clip into a piece and unweight the rope so I could pull up more rope for the leader;seems a little sketch but worked great. (Single clove hitch on anchor slides easily, and cleaner just holds back cams on jugs and lets rope slide through; obviously tied in short or to end of rope, but if anything goes wrong, the clove hitch will catch and the jugs are still on the rope). Like I said above, everyone has to really be on the ball.
This system obviously is flawed when it's a 200'pitch and you have a 200' rope....doesn't happen too often and why its a good idea to use shorter pitches if possible. And the jug monkey has a lot of tasks, but that's pretty sweet really - keep the cleaner and jug monkey scrambling and the leader moving upward without pause.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 15, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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Yeah Nanook, I pretty much just use the MicroTrax as a backup only, not for hauling.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 15, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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Yeah Jonesin,
You'd still have the end of the haul line on you and you'd be able to pull up gear. It's a good thought to just bring an extra set or set and a half of cams for the Nose and just have C2 jug em up to you. (that way if one breaks or gets stuck you are not hurting ;)
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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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Thanks guys. I'm excited for the climb. For our group of three it's a trip over a year out from now, but we're beginning our technical systems training etc. so I wanted to begin practicing the right technique early on.
We're east coasters and will be training a lot on the 500'-1000' foot walls here, just drilling the basics. Very excited!
My plan has been to read everything I can get my hands on and get as strong on trad leading as possible. That and practicing the jugging, etc. with our party members.
Any general big wall advice is appreciated, but the above discussion on climbing with 3 has filled in the one gap I found in the literature on big wall/aid.
Thanks again,
J
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
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Climbing a wall with 3 people is great. The hauling is colossally easier and there's nothing wrong with jugging the haul line. Counterweight hauling feels like easy mode after you've done a few walls hauling a pig solo and you have someone to spray with while the leader flails around instead of staring off into space chewing on your tongue while you wish you had brought more water.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 25, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
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This post inspired me to write up a longer version of what I've seen work good in teams of 3, which is so much fun and definitely worth it:
Climbing bigwalls, just like life, gets much more complicated when you add more people to your team. So make sure you are familiar with ‘team of two’ climbing logistics before attempting to climb a wall with three people. That said, climbing with a team of three is great as long as two of you have at least one wall under your belt – there is always someone at the belay to celebrate and solve problems with, and the stoke stays higher because each person does each job less so they are able to enjoy them more.
I advocate teams of three use only two ropes, but of course there are exceptions to every rule. Even if you decide to bring a third rope, I would recommend you use this two rope system as much as possible, as it is much easier and more streamlined.
Leader climbs the pitch either aid or free climbing or both, bringing the haul line up with them.
At the next belay the leader pulls up 10 feet of haul rope and fixes the haul line immediately.
The third person, or free jugger, puts his minitraxion on the haul line and pulls himself or herself tight for safety. (The grigri is not a good device for the third person because the rope does not feed smoothly through the grigri; If the person has to traverse on the rope the grigri will not slide sideways and will become stuck and difficult to remove). Now the third person puts both his ascenders on the rope and jugs up the haul line.
While the third person is jugging the haul line the leader is setting up the power point, pulling up (usually most of) the lead line and fixing it, and getting the hauler setup.
While the third person is jugging the haul line the belayer/cleaner, or second person, is making sure the bags are all packed, feeds out the lead line to the leader, and gets ready to clean the pitch.
When the third person reaches the leader at the belay, they clip into the anchor and unfix the haul line they were just jugging. If they are going to lead next they get the rack from the leader and start organizing it; if they are going to haul/belay they pull the haul line through the hauler until it is tight on the bags below and signal the second person, or cleaner, that they are ready to haul. If the leader is going to become the haul person he/she switches places with the third person and starts to haul.
The second person/cleaner, releases the haul bags and cleans the pitch.
The haul person hauls, coiling the hauline as he/she goes, while the leader checks the topo, gets a drink of water and snack the third person has jugged up with from below, and gets ready to lead.
Generally it is much more important to get the haul person hauling, and the second/cleaner cleaning than is to worry about getting the new leader started on the next pitch. Once both hauling and cleaning are going smoothly, the haul person can put the leader on belay(with a second grigri because the second/cleaner is cleaning with one grigri), and the leader can start up the next pitch taking the haul line with them again.
The cleaner reaches the belay, gives the cleaner rack to the new leader (or ties it onto the haul line if the leader is already leading the next pitch), and coils the lead line. The cleaner will have to clip into the anchor so the lead line can be unfixed, so the leader can continue to lead.
The extra person at the belay can help the haul person by coiling the haul rope for them as they haul. When the two at the belay have finished hauling, docking the haul bags on the anchor, and stacking the haul line, they pull out water and snacks to celebrate, take pictures, all the while making sure the leader has what he/she needs and that both ropes are feeding smoothly.
When the leader reaches the next belay, he/she pulls up 10 feet of haul line and fixes the haul line, and the sequence repeats itself.
Note: It can be helpful to have the third person carry with them a 15 ft. piece of lead rope, which they can attach to the power point easily and stay tied into at the anchor. This extra rope helps with hauling, allowing the third person to space haul or walk down the wall without using the lead line which is tied up with the new leader. This rope is also great at bivies, providing an extra, easy clip in.
Note: The main advantage to having a third rope is if you need to pass another party. The third rope can allow your leader to lead another pitch, passing the party, without both teams having to be at the belay at the same time. Of course having a third rope is also great if you end having trouble with either of your lead or haul ropes.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 26, 2014 - 12:32am PT
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Yo Scott!
Haven't seen you around the valley in a while.
You still getting after the walls?
woot!
e
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