Big Wall Climbing: 3 people?

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Jonsey

Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 13, 2014 - 09:28am PT
I am aware climbing with 2 is preferable over 3, but I have a party of 3 very interested in bagging a wall for sentimental reasons.

I've read that a common way to big wall with 3 is:

C1 leads and fixes lead and haul lines
C2 is lowered out (by C3) on the haul line, with bags, and jugs the haul line - then begins hauling
C3 cleans

My question is a safety concern for the haul-line jugger: is the climber jugging the haul line that is weighted below by bags (heavy bags for a party of 3) exerting an undue amount of stress to the rope in jugging it? It seems to my mind that the rope would be potentially damaged by getting jugged on when already highly-taught below by 100+ lbs bags.

Just checking! Maybe it's a non-issue.

Thanks!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
the rope would be potentially damaged by getting jugged on when already highly-taught below by 100+ lbs bags.
It's risky, but not really because of the added weight.
There was a fatal accident in Zion a few years ago in this exact situation, where a person jugged a weighted haul line.
What happened was the hauling pulley slipped (apparently it was not fully closed), and the bags and jugger dropped 20 feet or so, then stopped.
This broke the rope, and the jugger and bags went to the ground.

One method is for the leader to have a light tag line.
At the top of the pitch, they use the tag line to quickly pull up 2 ropes and the hauling pulley. They start the haul on one rope (to release the bags), and one person jugs the other free rope.
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 13, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
Jugging a weighted haul line is super scary. At least it was for me, on the Shield headwall. Bring an extra rope!
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 13, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
C1 Leads, finishes, fixes lead and haul line.

C2 jugs the fixed haul line (could be a fun lower out :)

C3 cuts the bags loose after C2 arrives. C3 starts cleaning

C1 belays C2 once arrived at belay

C3 hauls the bag

It's just one option but three things that are nice here is:

1 - leader doesn't have to haul after leading a long pitch

2 - C2 doesn't have to clean and then start leading

3 - belay never gets crowded with three climbers



Edit: and oh yeah.....
































YER GONNA DIE!!!!!!!1111111169
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Feb 13, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
"It's just one option but two things that are nice here is

1 - leader doesn't have to haul after leading a long pitch

2 - C2 doesn't have to clean and then start leading

3 - belay never gets crowded with three climbers"



Yes, but you lose time while everyone sits around watching C2 jug.
Levy

Big Wall climber
So Cal
Feb 13, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
Jugging a weighted haul line is suicidal. If your rope lies across a sharp edge and you and the bags are on it, the rope will be damaged more easily.

How much does an extra rope weigh anyway when your life is on the line, literally. ;)
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 13, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
C1 sits around and watches C2 jug no matter what.

C3 will finish cleaning before C2 finishes leading the next pitch.

I've never climbed in a party of three so I'm grinding mentally through this but I don't see much of a time loss. Seems like really the only time lost is switching the fixed haul line over to the haul system but C2/C3 would be waiting for C1 to set that up anyway.

Levy - how do you add the extra cord into the system. Certainly the leader doesn't lead with two lines (haul and extra)?


Edit: and the master has spoken. No wonder it took me 19 days to do Lurking Fear. Glad I cut that down to 13 on The Trip.
mucci

Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Feb 13, 2014 - 06:06pm PT
What Levy said.

Tag up the haul and the third man's rope with a lightweight dynamic tag line.

Gets you in good spaghetti western shape.
Trusty Rusty

climber
Tahoe Area
Feb 13, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
Like Nature/Levi says . . and include the mandatory OE "40 oz Of Fury" toast at each gear exchange
alleyehave

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 13, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
Never jug on a haul line with a combination pulley....::cringe::
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
Feb 14, 2014 - 12:49am PT
didn't read the comments above so this might be repeating...

Bring an extra rope for the 3rd guy, that's the way to go. Use a 7mil tag line for the leader to tag up the haul and juggers rope. Of coures this means you now have 4 ropes to manage which can be a pain, but is still better because:

1- Jugging the pigs sucks, and could be sketchy if the haul is loaded over an edge.

2- with the extra lead line you can get the jugger on belay and leading the next pitch as soon as he's at the belay and racked up.

3- using a tag line has many benefits, but mainly I like it because you don't notice it on you.

All that said, a team of three is generally way slower if you are all noobs.
Jonsey

Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2014 - 08:53am PT
Thanks for all the replies!

Something I should have mentioned: this party of 3 will = 1 rope gun and 2 people along for the ride wanting to "do" a big wall.

I'm doing substantial jumaring and hauling training with them. They both have good multipitch skills but are not trad leaders. So, they are by no means helpless or unknowledgeable climbers, but for leading on the Nose they aren't helpful for leading. Which I don't mind: more for me!

That being said, what I had in mind was 3 people, 3 ropes (2 lead, 1 static -- possibly a 4th zip line to lower out bags on traversing pitches):

L - leader
C - cleaner
H - hauler

L leads, dragging 2nd lead line
L fixes both lines
H jugs the 2nd lead line, trailing the haul line
H/L set the haul
C cuts out/lower out the bags
H hauls while C cleans
(repeat)

Thoughts? I'm aware it's a little slower. But, it has the advantage that the leader gets some rest between pitches. I imagine the cleaner and hauler jobs getting switched every half day or so.

Cheers!
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
Feb 14, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
Jonesy,

The problem with your suggested approach is that the whole team sits and does nothing while the 3rd jugs as fast as he can up the rope, which isn't always as fast as you think it should be...especially with someone who is inexperienced in jugging. Then once he gets up there he still has to rig the haul and the cleaner needs to cut the bags and break down the belay. You are talking 30-40 minutes easy with no team progress, bags haven't moved yet and the entire last pitch still needs to be cleaned. and if he is new he likely won't be able to belay you on the next pitch and haul effeciently at the same time, it's not as easy as it sounds.

All that wasted time the cleaner should have been on the rope cleaning the pitch...because now he is going to be the one holding the team up. Don't underestimate the importance of having a proficient cleaner on the team, you may be a great ropegun, but your team will only be as fast as that cleaner, if he can't get the gear out quickly, deal with lower outs smoothly, and keep the rack organized then you will be sunk. If he is the last one to go into action you are doing things backwards. He should be casting off to clean AS SOON AS that lead rope is fixed.

I've tried every method and trust me what I describe above is the fastest with a team of three. Listen to nannok...go with your method and you are setting yourself up for "bail of the day," especially on the Nose.

And the only time I have felt comfortable jugging the weighted pig line was doing push ascents with a light (30-40lb) bag.

If you really want to be efficient and you are the ropegun, use a tag line and learn to short fix. Get to the belay, pull up all the remaining slack, fix the cleaners rope, fix the juggers rope, set up the haul, stack your lines and start leading the next pitch while the two guys below get their work done. Rest when you are in the portaledge drinkin' Cobras.

That's the way to roll.

FrankZappa

Trad climber
Hankster's crew
Feb 14, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
Well if you have one rope gun, or are speed climbing, then my 3-man method is far superior:

1 - Leader leads pitch. Upon arrival at belay, leader pulls up rest of haul line and fixes it. Leader clips lead line to belay anchor as if it were just a piece of pro and keeps leading.

2 - Jug monkey jugs up haul line with extra gear while belayer is still belaying and leader is still leading.

3 - Jug monkey gets to belay and puts leader on belay and gets haul line ready for hauling. He now pulls up rest of lead line and fixes it for cleaning. Former belayer below can now lower out bag, start to lean pitch, etc.

The beauty of this system is when the leader is at the belay for less than a minute and there is no turnover time.

The problem with this system is that everyone has to have good communication and really be on the ball.... and the leader will get pretty wiped out after about 3 pitches as there is no rest time....but that's good if one is trying to go fast.


In general I think 3 man is more fun but 2-man is just more simple.
Lambone

Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
Feb 14, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
^ that works, but the benefit of short fixing with a self belay is that the cleaner can get started sooner and not feel as rushed.

I've found that short fixing in a team of 3 not only speeds things WAY up, but it also allows everybody to relax a bit and not rush up the ropes, because everybody is workin' together and the ropes getting push up.

And I totally agree on 3 being more fun!
Erik Sloan

climber
Feb 14, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
That's an interesting approach FrankZappa. Have you tried it?

The problem with that on the Nose is that you'd be freeclimbing right off the belay with rope drag, and it wouldn't work good for the traverses. And you'd probably be outta gear as most 130' pitches use most of the 2-3 ea cams that folks bring.

But it's kinda cool to think of trying on an aid route, where you might have more gear and would move more slowly.

Have you done it? Which routes?

Truly, any suggestion here can just be tried out on a 2-3 pitch climb near where you live, if you have access to something like that.
FrankZappa

Trad climber
Hankster's crew
Feb 14, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
Yeah, my above method works best for aid routes or where the going is slower. Probably wouldn't work as well at breakneck speed mostly free ascents, but it could for sections and if everyone knows what they are doing.

We have used it twice, on pushes of Lurking Fear and Tangerine Trip; surely didn't set any records but at least our method wasn't to blame ;). And I have done it on several other things where I knew I was going to lead two or 3 pitches in a row.

There is less cramping at the belays. Lack of gear isn't such an issue because in the time the jug monkey gets up the rope with the extra gear we found that the leader would only be 30 - 40 ft out our so depending on the difficulty. We also found that utilizing shorter "pitches" when possible kept the lower guys scrambling, eliminated gear issues, and just kept the whole show moving along faster. The length of the pitch does not matter to the leader because the are just on lead the whole time.

In general, what slows down upward progress is when the leader slows down. Stopping or spending a lot of time at the belay slows down the leader. Short fixing slows down the leader and is more dangerous than just leading as normal...the leader is screwing around with the short fix instead of focusing on going up.

The only thing that slows down the leader with my above method is that the leader is so tired from constantly moving!

NANOOK: Can I expect to see you at Martin Park anytime soon?! ;)
Jonsey

Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
Thanks for the replies guys - it's an awesome wealth of knowledge and experience you all have. I really appreciate the comments and advice. I look forward to training through your suggestions.

Cheers,
J
Erik Sloan

climber
Feb 14, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
I like it Frank Z, maybe not for the Nose but for other routes I think you're on to something.

Martin Park? Nah, I moved to Fort Collins, though I knew I'd get this place because the backyard also goes into a big city park.

Woot!
Brock

Trad climber
RENO, NV
Feb 14, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
Yeah, go for it. BUT! Have your STUFF together!!! Rope management practice prior to your attempts. Knowledge of self escape and rescue from belay. Don't make it painful for the parties of two that want to pass. HAVE A BLAST!!!
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