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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 13, 2014 - 09:28am PT
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I am aware climbing with 2 is preferable over 3, but I have a party of 3 very interested in bagging a wall for sentimental reasons.
I've read that a common way to big wall with 3 is:
C1 leads and fixes lead and haul lines
C2 is lowered out (by C3) on the haul line, with bags, and jugs the haul line - then begins hauling
C3 cleans
My question is a safety concern for the haul-line jugger: is the climber jugging the haul line that is weighted below by bags (heavy bags for a party of 3) exerting an undue amount of stress to the rope in jugging it? It seems to my mind that the rope would be potentially damaged by getting jugged on when already highly-taught below by 100+ lbs bags.
Just checking! Maybe it's a non-issue.
Thanks!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 13, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
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the rope would be potentially damaged by getting jugged on when already highly-taught below by 100+ lbs bags. It's risky, but not really because of the added weight.
There was a fatal accident in Zion a few years ago in this exact situation, where a person jugged a weighted haul line.
What happened was the hauling pulley slipped (apparently it was not fully closed), and the bags and jugger dropped 20 feet or so, then stopped.
This broke the rope, and the jugger and bags went to the ground.
One method is for the leader to have a light tag line.
At the top of the pitch, they use the tag line to quickly pull up 2 ropes and the hauling pulley. They start the haul on one rope (to release the bags), and one person jugs the other free rope.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Feb 13, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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Jugging a weighted haul line is super scary. At least it was for me, on the Shield headwall. Bring an extra rope!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 13, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
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C1 Leads, finishes, fixes lead and haul line.
C2 jugs the fixed haul line (could be a fun lower out :)
C3 cuts the bags loose after C2 arrives. C3 starts cleaning
C1 belays C2 once arrived at belay
C3 hauls the bag
It's just one option but three things that are nice here is:
1 - leader doesn't have to haul after leading a long pitch
2 - C2 doesn't have to clean and then start leading
3 - belay never gets crowded with three climbers
Edit: and oh yeah.....
YER GONNA DIE!!!!!!!1111111169
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Feb 13, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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"It's just one option but two things that are nice here is
1 - leader doesn't have to haul after leading a long pitch
2 - C2 doesn't have to clean and then start leading
3 - belay never gets crowded with three climbers"
Yes, but you lose time while everyone sits around watching C2 jug.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Feb 13, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
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Jugging a weighted haul line is suicidal. If your rope lies across a sharp edge and you and the bags are on it, the rope will be damaged more easily.
How much does an extra rope weigh anyway when your life is on the line, literally. ;)
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 13, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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C1 sits around and watches C2 jug no matter what.
C3 will finish cleaning before C2 finishes leading the next pitch.
I've never climbed in a party of three so I'm grinding mentally through this but I don't see much of a time loss. Seems like really the only time lost is switching the fixed haul line over to the haul system but C2/C3 would be waiting for C1 to set that up anyway.
Levy - how do you add the extra cord into the system. Certainly the leader doesn't lead with two lines (haul and extra)?
Edit: and the master has spoken. No wonder it took me 19 days to do Lurking Fear. Glad I cut that down to 13 on The Trip.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 13, 2014 - 06:06pm PT
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What Levy said.
Tag up the haul and the third man's rope with a lightweight dynamic tag line.
Gets you in good spaghetti western shape.
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Trusty Rusty
climber
Tahoe Area
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Feb 13, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
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Like Nature/Levi says . . and include the mandatory OE "40 oz Of Fury" toast at each gear exchange
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alleyehave
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Feb 13, 2014 - 11:42pm PT
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Never jug on a haul line with a combination pulley....::cringe::
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 14, 2014 - 12:49am PT
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didn't read the comments above so this might be repeating...
Bring an extra rope for the 3rd guy, that's the way to go. Use a 7mil tag line for the leader to tag up the haul and juggers rope. Of coures this means you now have 4 ropes to manage which can be a pain, but is still better because:
1- Jugging the pigs sucks, and could be sketchy if the haul is loaded over an edge.
2- with the extra lead line you can get the jugger on belay and leading the next pitch as soon as he's at the belay and racked up.
3- using a tag line has many benefits, but mainly I like it because you don't notice it on you.
All that said, a team of three is generally way slower if you are all noobs.
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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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Thanks for all the replies!
Something I should have mentioned: this party of 3 will = 1 rope gun and 2 people along for the ride wanting to "do" a big wall.
I'm doing substantial jumaring and hauling training with them. They both have good multipitch skills but are not trad leaders. So, they are by no means helpless or unknowledgeable climbers, but for leading on the Nose they aren't helpful for leading. Which I don't mind: more for me!
That being said, what I had in mind was 3 people, 3 ropes (2 lead, 1 static -- possibly a 4th zip line to lower out bags on traversing pitches):
L - leader
C - cleaner
H - hauler
L leads, dragging 2nd lead line
L fixes both lines
H jugs the 2nd lead line, trailing the haul line
H/L set the haul
C cuts out/lower out the bags
H hauls while C cleans
(repeat)
Thoughts? I'm aware it's a little slower. But, it has the advantage that the leader gets some rest between pitches. I imagine the cleaner and hauler jobs getting switched every half day or so.
Cheers!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 14, 2014 - 01:35pm PT
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Jonesy,
The problem with your suggested approach is that the whole team sits and does nothing while the 3rd jugs as fast as he can up the rope, which isn't always as fast as you think it should be...especially with someone who is inexperienced in jugging. Then once he gets up there he still has to rig the haul and the cleaner needs to cut the bags and break down the belay. You are talking 30-40 minutes easy with no team progress, bags haven't moved yet and the entire last pitch still needs to be cleaned. and if he is new he likely won't be able to belay you on the next pitch and haul effeciently at the same time, it's not as easy as it sounds.
All that wasted time the cleaner should have been on the rope cleaning the pitch...because now he is going to be the one holding the team up. Don't underestimate the importance of having a proficient cleaner on the team, you may be a great ropegun, but your team will only be as fast as that cleaner, if he can't get the gear out quickly, deal with lower outs smoothly, and keep the rack organized then you will be sunk. If he is the last one to go into action you are doing things backwards. He should be casting off to clean AS SOON AS that lead rope is fixed.
I've tried every method and trust me what I describe above is the fastest with a team of three. Listen to nannok...go with your method and you are setting yourself up for "bail of the day," especially on the Nose.
And the only time I have felt comfortable jugging the weighted pig line was doing push ascents with a light (30-40lb) bag.
If you really want to be efficient and you are the ropegun, use a tag line and learn to short fix. Get to the belay, pull up all the remaining slack, fix the cleaners rope, fix the juggers rope, set up the haul, stack your lines and start leading the next pitch while the two guys below get their work done. Rest when you are in the portaledge drinkin' Cobras.
That's the way to roll.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Feb 14, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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Well if you have one rope gun, or are speed climbing, then my 3-man method is far superior:
1 - Leader leads pitch. Upon arrival at belay, leader pulls up rest of haul line and fixes it. Leader clips lead line to belay anchor as if it were just a piece of pro and keeps leading.
2 - Jug monkey jugs up haul line with extra gear while belayer is still belaying and leader is still leading.
3 - Jug monkey gets to belay and puts leader on belay and gets haul line ready for hauling. He now pulls up rest of lead line and fixes it for cleaning. Former belayer below can now lower out bag, start to lean pitch, etc.
The beauty of this system is when the leader is at the belay for less than a minute and there is no turnover time.
The problem with this system is that everyone has to have good communication and really be on the ball.... and the leader will get pretty wiped out after about 3 pitches as there is no rest time....but that's good if one is trying to go fast.
In general I think 3 man is more fun but 2-man is just more simple.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 14, 2014 - 03:53pm PT
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^ that works, but the benefit of short fixing with a self belay is that the cleaner can get started sooner and not feel as rushed.
I've found that short fixing in a team of 3 not only speeds things WAY up, but it also allows everybody to relax a bit and not rush up the ropes, because everybody is workin' together and the ropes getting push up.
And I totally agree on 3 being more fun!
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 14, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
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That's an interesting approach FrankZappa. Have you tried it?
The problem with that on the Nose is that you'd be freeclimbing right off the belay with rope drag, and it wouldn't work good for the traverses. And you'd probably be outta gear as most 130' pitches use most of the 2-3 ea cams that folks bring.
But it's kinda cool to think of trying on an aid route, where you might have more gear and would move more slowly.
Have you done it? Which routes?
Truly, any suggestion here can just be tried out on a 2-3 pitch climb near where you live, if you have access to something like that.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Feb 14, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
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Yeah, my above method works best for aid routes or where the going is slower. Probably wouldn't work as well at breakneck speed mostly free ascents, but it could for sections and if everyone knows what they are doing.
We have used it twice, on pushes of Lurking Fear and Tangerine Trip; surely didn't set any records but at least our method wasn't to blame ;). And I have done it on several other things where I knew I was going to lead two or 3 pitches in a row.
There is less cramping at the belays. Lack of gear isn't such an issue because in the time the jug monkey gets up the rope with the extra gear we found that the leader would only be 30 - 40 ft out our so depending on the difficulty. We also found that utilizing shorter "pitches" when possible kept the lower guys scrambling, eliminated gear issues, and just kept the whole show moving along faster. The length of the pitch does not matter to the leader because the are just on lead the whole time.
In general, what slows down upward progress is when the leader slows down. Stopping or spending a lot of time at the belay slows down the leader. Short fixing slows down the leader and is more dangerous than just leading as normal...the leader is screwing around with the short fix instead of focusing on going up.
The only thing that slows down the leader with my above method is that the leader is so tired from constantly moving!
NANOOK: Can I expect to see you at Martin Park anytime soon?! ;)
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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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Thanks for the replies guys - it's an awesome wealth of knowledge and experience you all have. I really appreciate the comments and advice. I look forward to training through your suggestions.
Cheers,
J
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 14, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
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I like it Frank Z, maybe not for the Nose but for other routes I think you're on to something.
Martin Park? Nah, I moved to Fort Collins, though I knew I'd get this place because the backyard also goes into a big city park.
Woot!
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Brock
Trad climber
RENO, NV
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Feb 14, 2014 - 09:20pm PT
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Yeah, go for it. BUT! Have your STUFF together!!! Rope management practice prior to your attempts. Knowledge of self escape and rescue from belay. Don't make it painful for the parties of two that want to pass. HAVE A BLAST!!!
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 14, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
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Someone asked me why I would recommend the second C2 jug the free line with a minitraxion(below your ascenders for back up) instead of a grigri.
Using a minitraxion instead of a grigri for the free line is key--because the pitches often traverse and you will end up getting back drag on the Grigri, or have to jug sideways and not be able to get the grigri off. With the minitraxion your backup just slides smoothly up the rope below your ascenders. And you have the extra pully out and where you want it, with the guy hauling, should he need it for any reason.
Woot!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 15, 2014 - 12:33am PT
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I'll add the micro trax works great as a backup for free jugging too. Much lighter on your harness and cheaper too.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 15, 2014 - 01:32am PT
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FrankZ, I'm curious about some details of your description of your method. Obviously, if you've used it, it works, but I'm puzzled about a couple of things. One is, you note the jug monkey going up with "extra gear," but how does this gear ever get to the leader? Is the idea that there's enough spare lead rope, which he's short-fixed leading on, to tag up that gear before the jug monkey starts belaying him?
The other thing is, if the jug monkey puts him on belay (as you said), then he has to be belaying and hauling at the same time. That's going to cause problems unless the placements are hard to get and the leader isn't moving up a lot. Not clear why the leader doesn't just keep leading on whatever lead line is left.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 15, 2014 - 02:17am PT
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True Lambone,
But try to haul a full load with it, and you'll probably wish you had the minitraxion, or a spare Protraxion. Of course, this can be avoided by always rigging the haul line for the leader with the Protraxion setup, which is ideal, it just sometimes gets lost in the mix when people are thinking of short fixing, shuttling haulers, etc.
Mongrel -- well the leader will have to be belayed by someone different at some point for the lower belayer to clean, and I'm sure that Zappa is saying that there is enough extra haul line for the leader to pull up the gear, and that the hauler putting him/her on on the grigri and hauling is not going to slow someone down too much. Practice makes perfect with this, for sure, but bigwall leads do tend to be somewhat slower in general.
Now Jim Herson's daughter would probably tell us a very different story, hahaha. It's all relative!
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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2014 - 08:27am PT
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One more question (for Nature & co. system):
c1 leads, fixes lead and haul
c2 jugs haul
c3 cuts bags lose / begins cleaning / c2 puts (ropegun) c1 back on belay
c3 finishes cleaning and hauls
Concern/Unsure:
c1 leader seems short on gear and also to be lacking the haul line on the second lead.
*I'm assuming the haul line slack has been pulled up and dragged with leader on the new pitch. I'm also assuming the gear cleaned on the prior pitch can be sent up via haul line/zip line?
Also: any clarification on 3rd rope/no 3rd rope? Seems to be a point of debate. For sending gear up/ safely lowering out I can see the zip line usefulness.
There was a fair amount written above about a 2nd lead line belay for the haul line jug-monkey. I had not read about that in the materials I've been reviewing (Macnamara, John Long, Freedom of the Hills) - though they mainly address parties of 2.
Again, big thanks for the advice! Very appreciated!
Cheers,
J
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 15, 2014 - 10:36am PT
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A short bit of tag line can help send up the stuff that was cleaned and the haul line if needed.
I really like a 3 person team on a wall, Very little downtime between leads and you have someone to chill with at belays on the longer leads.
Another time saver is having the belayer start hauling while the 3rd is cleaning. If the bags get stuck the cleaner is often in a decent position to give them a tug or shove as needed.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Feb 15, 2014 - 12:09pm PT
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mongrel- with my method the leader is not short fixed. He just keeps climbing past the belay. He pulls up all or most of the extra HAUL line and fixes it. The jug monkey blasts up the haul line with some extra gear to pass to the leader. When the jug monkey gets to the belay he puts the leader on belay, relieving the belayer down below. The leader can then pull the extra gear from the jug monkey up with the extra haul line he pulled up before fixing the rope.
After the belayer below takes the leader off belay, the jug monkey, who now has the leader on belay, pulls up all the extra lead line and fixes it for the guy below to clean. He uses a Gri Gri or whatever because he is also hauling if necessary. One time I remember having the cleaner clip into a piece and unweight the rope so I could pull up more rope for the leader;seems a little sketch but worked great. (Single clove hitch on anchor slides easily, and cleaner just holds back cams on jugs and lets rope slide through; obviously tied in short or to end of rope, but if anything goes wrong, the clove hitch will catch and the jugs are still on the rope). Like I said above, everyone has to really be on the ball.
This system obviously is flawed when it's a 200'pitch and you have a 200' rope....doesn't happen too often and why its a good idea to use shorter pitches if possible. And the jug monkey has a lot of tasks, but that's pretty sweet really - keep the cleaner and jug monkey scrambling and the leader moving upward without pause.
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Feb 15, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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Yeah Nanook, I pretty much just use the MicroTrax as a backup only, not for hauling.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 15, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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Yeah Jonesin,
You'd still have the end of the haul line on you and you'd be able to pull up gear. It's a good thought to just bring an extra set or set and a half of cams for the Nose and just have C2 jug em up to you. (that way if one breaks or gets stuck you are not hurting ;)
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Jonsey
Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
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Thanks guys. I'm excited for the climb. For our group of three it's a trip over a year out from now, but we're beginning our technical systems training etc. so I wanted to begin practicing the right technique early on.
We're east coasters and will be training a lot on the 500'-1000' foot walls here, just drilling the basics. Very excited!
My plan has been to read everything I can get my hands on and get as strong on trad leading as possible. That and practicing the jugging, etc. with our party members.
Any general big wall advice is appreciated, but the above discussion on climbing with 3 has filled in the one gap I found in the literature on big wall/aid.
Thanks again,
J
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
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Climbing a wall with 3 people is great. The hauling is colossally easier and there's nothing wrong with jugging the haul line. Counterweight hauling feels like easy mode after you've done a few walls hauling a pig solo and you have someone to spray with while the leader flails around instead of staring off into space chewing on your tongue while you wish you had brought more water.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 25, 2014 - 11:16pm PT
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This post inspired me to write up a longer version of what I've seen work good in teams of 3, which is so much fun and definitely worth it:
Climbing bigwalls, just like life, gets much more complicated when you add more people to your team. So make sure you are familiar with ‘team of two’ climbing logistics before attempting to climb a wall with three people. That said, climbing with a team of three is great as long as two of you have at least one wall under your belt – there is always someone at the belay to celebrate and solve problems with, and the stoke stays higher because each person does each job less so they are able to enjoy them more.
I advocate teams of three use only two ropes, but of course there are exceptions to every rule. Even if you decide to bring a third rope, I would recommend you use this two rope system as much as possible, as it is much easier and more streamlined.
Leader climbs the pitch either aid or free climbing or both, bringing the haul line up with them.
At the next belay the leader pulls up 10 feet of haul rope and fixes the haul line immediately.
The third person, or free jugger, puts his minitraxion on the haul line and pulls himself or herself tight for safety. (The grigri is not a good device for the third person because the rope does not feed smoothly through the grigri; If the person has to traverse on the rope the grigri will not slide sideways and will become stuck and difficult to remove). Now the third person puts both his ascenders on the rope and jugs up the haul line.
While the third person is jugging the haul line the leader is setting up the power point, pulling up (usually most of) the lead line and fixing it, and getting the hauler setup.
While the third person is jugging the haul line the belayer/cleaner, or second person, is making sure the bags are all packed, feeds out the lead line to the leader, and gets ready to clean the pitch.
When the third person reaches the leader at the belay, they clip into the anchor and unfix the haul line they were just jugging. If they are going to lead next they get the rack from the leader and start organizing it; if they are going to haul/belay they pull the haul line through the hauler until it is tight on the bags below and signal the second person, or cleaner, that they are ready to haul. If the leader is going to become the haul person he/she switches places with the third person and starts to haul.
The second person/cleaner, releases the haul bags and cleans the pitch.
The haul person hauls, coiling the hauline as he/she goes, while the leader checks the topo, gets a drink of water and snack the third person has jugged up with from below, and gets ready to lead.
Generally it is much more important to get the haul person hauling, and the second/cleaner cleaning than is to worry about getting the new leader started on the next pitch. Once both hauling and cleaning are going smoothly, the haul person can put the leader on belay(with a second grigri because the second/cleaner is cleaning with one grigri), and the leader can start up the next pitch taking the haul line with them again.
The cleaner reaches the belay, gives the cleaner rack to the new leader (or ties it onto the haul line if the leader is already leading the next pitch), and coils the lead line. The cleaner will have to clip into the anchor so the lead line can be unfixed, so the leader can continue to lead.
The extra person at the belay can help the haul person by coiling the haul rope for them as they haul. When the two at the belay have finished hauling, docking the haul bags on the anchor, and stacking the haul line, they pull out water and snacks to celebrate, take pictures, all the while making sure the leader has what he/she needs and that both ropes are feeding smoothly.
When the leader reaches the next belay, he/she pulls up 10 feet of haul line and fixes the haul line, and the sequence repeats itself.
Note: It can be helpful to have the third person carry with them a 15 ft. piece of lead rope, which they can attach to the power point easily and stay tied into at the anchor. This extra rope helps with hauling, allowing the third person to space haul or walk down the wall without using the lead line which is tied up with the new leader. This rope is also great at bivies, providing an extra, easy clip in.
Note: The main advantage to having a third rope is if you need to pass another party. The third rope can allow your leader to lead another pitch, passing the party, without both teams having to be at the belay at the same time. Of course having a third rope is also great if you end having trouble with either of your lead or haul ropes.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Feb 26, 2014 - 12:32am PT
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Yo Scott!
Haven't seen you around the valley in a while.
You still getting after the walls?
woot!
e
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