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Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
Oct 2, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Posts dropping off this thread like the morning bizzness.

Petty moves, that ensure the proper context is never found.

Here we go again.

Oct 2, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
Why delete the human condition?

You both should have left everything up.

It was good ....
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Oct 2, 2013 - 12:59pm PT

That's 10,321 fewer words of electronic noise! Delete MORE PLEASE!!!!


Oct 2, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
This is more likely to mark a beginning than it is an end. Ammon himself suggested it might be done in a day. The question poses itself however; how much hooking will it take before the route is effectively erased? After that one wonders how many bolts on rappel will it take to make it a "free" route?

The film mentions that the FA people kept a complete log or diary. This is rather different from normal FA where "turn left at the big rock" is a typical instruction. Was that new level of data incorporated in the topo provided by the authors? If so, perhaps this new level of data caused many to expect the route was wholly artificial; the root of much later controversy.

I thought the film was interesting and well done. Whatever else follows, one can only hope it will also be interesting.

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Oct 2, 2013 - 01:33pm PT
To the tedious dude that put up the tedious route (what a surprise that a tedious and anal dude would put up a tedious and anal route and then go on and on about it tediously for decades, haha):

Seriously, dude, you have NO idea what you are talking about

All right. :)

To just the maid:

I kinda agree with Richard on this.. when he says it's a "big pile of objective facts

I liked your post. I do not think your review of the movie worthless at all. I think the reason public forums are in place are for people to post. Not for them to be told not to post, or to delete their post. But anyway, isn't the only objective thing you could say about anything related to climbing the fact that it is subjective? ;)

Both sides state that WOS is neither aesthetic nor appealing.

Well, I guess I was at least right about something in their eyes. haha

That side of the controversy certainly needed a voice, but I wish he could have been presented in a less evil light

I haven't seen the interview yet. But, I've read all the posts from Steve and Richard through the years. Both take this very personally, so neither is the right person to ask for an objective opinion or the truth, obviously. :)

I have a saying I use a lot. What would John Wayne do? :) When cops shot the 70 year old lady to death for waving around a standard kitchen butter knife... I asked myself if that's how John Wayne would have handled it? Would he be whining about my GFs cats, lol, etc. etc. Great for us in climbing that we have our own John Wayne... and his name is John, too. :) John Long is beloved for his self deprecation and playing down of his exploits. Calling Pisano Overhang "nothing more than a grunt", about the first NIAD "well, I had a lot of energy and endurance back then." When asked why he had a toprope on a 5.10 he said, "out of laziness and cowardess, not necessarily in that order." lol I love that guy, who doesn't? :) Oh yeah, Richard doesn't want to be loved. You know what, though? Everyone who has ever said that was lying. Again, obviously. This from the guy who says he just doesn't want to be called a liar and if asked we'd get the truth from him. All of us can say that the person that knows us the least is ourself. When you allow yourself to take something so personally and latch onto it so hard... you will not say or do the right things. You will not improve your situation or come off right. You cannot be objective or honest, obviously. But, you can be controversial. Which has its own psychological rewards. ;)

I'm just saying... :)


Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Oct 2, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
Why delete the human condition?

You both should have left everything up.

It was good ....


And, I believe I generally always enjoy Ed's posts as well as KLK's posts. And, occasionally one of your posts. haha

Oct 2, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
Oh, hey guys! Can I play?

Edit: Howdy, Rivet Hanger! Good to see you again.

Edit: Dingus, old chap! Always a pleasure!

the last bivy
Oct 2, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
It seems to me that the idea of "ethic" here is confused with "parochialism" or provinciality. Wings of Steel does not appear to be .. say.. the Compressor Route or a similar ethical controversy but a challenge to the provincial milieu.

Why was Richard, who was sitting right there up front, not invited on stage?

as for the film, good on ya! It makes me want to know more about the route and about it's authors and about all the greasy underbelly of the era (especially when you add this to the classic warren vs royal snort fest). I was happy to see it and amazed at the climb.

And where can I get a T shirt? Skip has one!

oh, It's a bit obvious that those who are inclined to diss the esthetic of the route should climb it first, otherwise those comments look quite small to those of us in the stands.


Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Oct 2, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
the classic warren vs royal snort fest

Warren was awesome! That was classic and fun! This and these guys?... not so much. haha

It's a bit obvious that those who are inclined to diss the esthetic of the route should climb it first

Have you ever hooked a flake? ;)

Oct 2, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
Hey, where did all of the posts from last night go? =(

For cry yi, this is a public forum! We should be creating an environment here in which people feel safe enough to post their honest opinions even if they ARE wrong and have rocks for brains. =(

Speaking of which, Rudder, I have been meaning to ask:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#228792

In the above Internet Hug, which pony are YOU?

Trad climber
Costa Mesa, CA
Oct 2, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Ah geez, not the ponies!

Maybe the pink one. haha

Oct 2, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Ahhhh Pinkie Pie!

A wonderful choice.

Mountain climber
there and back again
Oct 2, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
I saw the movie at Facelift and thought it was really well done. Decided to talk to Richard the next day and was impressed by what a thoughtful and conscious man he is (and was, I am sure). Saw it again last night and talked to Jeff. He has put a lot of work and thought into providing a broad and telling story. Good on you.

There will always be somebody who gets pissed off or does not see it a particular way. But the light needs to be shown if your going to see the whole picture. Ammon and the whole crew did this well.

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Oct 2, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
Thank you MUCH! It was a true pleasure to meet you, and I just wish we had had more time to talk. Maybe next year, 'cause I definitely want to be part of Facelift! :-)
Wade Icey

Trad climber
Oct 3, 2013 - 12:18am PT
Self appointed ethical arbiter/historian positing on film and WWWeb for posterity is all the vindication anyone could possibly hope for...

the ascenders will be remembered for the ascending.
the arbiter will be remembered for.....

Oct 3, 2013 - 12:33am PT
...his own boldness, hopefully.

Lucky Goes To The Creamery - 5.11X unrepeated
Lucky Goes To The Creamery - 5.11X unrepeated
Credit: Larry Coats

Oct 3, 2013 - 01:13am PT
There will always be somebody who gets pissed off or does not see it a particular way.

A key point. Some people just aren't going to like or do right by some other people, no matter what. Some people are simply not going to be open to a different perspective, no matter what. There is wisdom in recognizing when there is no prize to the fight.

Hopefully Steve is remembered as MisterE presents him.

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Oct 3, 2013 - 03:58am PT
Did the movie's budget include a six of 0E for a Swilliam interview and was the latter included in the movie?
If not, I can't imagine that the movie can realistically claim to present any sort of fair, or even general, assessment of the overall drama surrounding the climb and its legacy.
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