Mammoth topography in regards to Visions (FindMattGreene)

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LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 12, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Hi Tyler,

I don’t know whether you’re still checking this thread, but I had a few more questions for you about your vision. (Tiffany has added some other people’s visions.) I don't know how to integrate the different visions, but I'd like to ask a bit more about yours.

As I understood it, you had two main visions. In one, you saw Matt on a dark-colored mountainside with no trees, not very steep, but leading to steeper cliffs above. (You later said you thought there was ice and snow higher up.) As Matt reaches the steeper cliffs, he falls back and out of sight. I think that was the vision in which he mentioned the blue diamond. You said that you had the impression that near where Matt was falling, he was near a dome or a dome-like mountain. Just before this vision, you saw a fence with wooden posts connected by wires that was similar to the one in this picture; you thought it might have been on the way to the mountain where he was falling:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Mammoth_Mountain.jpg

You said that Matt made clear to you that he impressed upon you that he wasn’t equipped to do a big peak and would have had a partner if he’d intended to do something like that. Yo say he might have been doing something lower down, something relatively easy and safe, when something went wrong.

Then there was also a vision in which Matt was standing on a large trail or unpaved road, with a short fence or railing nearby, looking at two distant prominent peaks. (The fence in this vision was old, natural, unpainted, and weathered, I think made of wooden posts connected by wooden crossbars.) You said this appeared to be a happier and more trivial vision than the one in which he’s falling. But still, you said you woke from it screaming with terrible back pain.

(You also said that at one point, Matt showed you a map of the Mammoth Crest and expressed strong interest in the area. It sounded like at that point you were thinking of two areas, one down towards the Mammoth Crest and the other further north, in the direction of the Inyo National Forest.)

I had a few questions.

-Have you had any more visions, intuitions, or dreams related to Matt?

-In the vision where Matt was falling, how strong was your impression that there was a dome-shaped feature or mountain nearby? In other words, how important is “dome-shaped”? If it was a crucial element, and we posted some pictures of dome-shaped things, do you think one might ring a bell? (I know you said you didn’t see it full on.)

-You said that the mountain where he was falling was made of dark rock – sort of gravelly, near the bottom of the mountain, of big dark-gray clumps of rock around four to six inches. Can you remember whether these rocks were more shiny, sharp-edged, or crystalline, or whether they were more dull, opaque, or rounded? Or somehow both?

-Did you have any sense of where the “falling from a mountainside” vision was located, in relation to the “standing on a wide trail or unpaved road and looking at the mountains” vision? Did you feel they were in a similar place, or that they could have been widely separated?


Thanks!
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Sep 12, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
This week I was around Mammoth and did some investigating and also realized how vast an area he could be in, even close to town.

If he left between 3 and 6 am there is a high likelihood he could hitch a ride to Agnew or Reds. Drivers have to be in by 7 in order to not have to take the bus so traffic is common at this time of morning.

Talking with a friend who spent most of the summer in the back country he says the Mountain Lion scenario is very likely as that is their main hunting time. The number of Lions is way up and hunters have reported a shortage of deer. A 180 pound lion was hit on 395 recently.





Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
Okay, Donna here but if anyone bites my head off for my thoughts I am over it.

Regarding East of town, close to campground http://www.mammothtrails.org/experience/12/hiking-to-sherwin-lakes/#mapTab

I should mention I sent photos of an area near there where the infamous fence leads to a trail off of Sherwin Creek rd that leads to Mammoth Rock which leads to the Lake Basin which leads to Crystal Lake, Mammoth Crest etc. etc. This would be an easy walk for Matt if he started early, wanted to check out something he was curious about. He could have explored off trail and planned on taking the afternoon free shuttle back to town. I really believe if Matt went off trail he could easily have been missed even in a high travel area.

Snow in mid July around Mammoth Crest and Crystal Crag possible though as Cragman pointed out, we had a dry winter. (Ask Matt's friends who were up there with him in early July). From what I understand there was still snow around the base of the Crag. He could have had axe etc just in case.

I understand why most of the emphasis is on Ritter/Banner but that requires really experienced boots on the ground. I also understand that a helicopter is less than desirable but I wonder if it might be time for some of the family to visit Mammoth and get some understanding, closure and peace before winter sets in? I keep trying to put myself in their shoes, I would want this chance. Peace to all~
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Thanks for the insight Donna.

My parents want to go out but whether they will this season or not, I don't know. I want to go but yet not. Honestly I think it would tear me apart to be out there, let alone have to come home again without Matt. Only finding him will bring me any closure, and I not qualified to search myself.

I really don't know how to feel anymore; at different times I've had different gut feelings but lately I'm just numb.
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
I certainly understand Tiffany. It's hard to know for sure what one would do unless they are in that situation. I hope something happens soon to bring you closer to finding peace.

lazydays

climber
Nazareth, PA
Sep 12, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
I really don't know how to feel anymore; at different times I've had different gut feelings but lately I'm just numb.


What you are going through is overwhelming. But, your strength and perserverance is the driving force that keeps the search for Matt alive. Wherever he is, he is proud of you, proud to call you his sister. Almost seventeen years ago, I lost my son in an amusement park. He was three years old at the time. The little bugger slipped out of the ball pit and got into a tree house; I will never know how he got by me. He was gone for about ten minutes and in that ten minutes I lived and died a million times. So, I cannot even imagine how each day that passes must seem like an eternity. Living somewhere between hope and grief can make one numb. I just hope you know, what we see, what we will always remember, no matter what the outcome, is how hard you have tried, all you have done, how you've pushed forward, all your persistence, all your hope, taking on huge responsibility, coordinating, listening to ideas & taking it all in, shouldering your family's pain, the interviews, the posts, the pleas - to bring Matt home. You are a woman of great determination and strength and Matt is so very lucky to have you... I pray that your hopes and prayers will be answered. I pray for your peace. Keep on keepin' on....
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Lazydays, I am so sorry for your loss.
Your thoughts for Tiffany are wonderful.
JNCalif

Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:59am PT
Tiffany, my heart aches for your and your family. I have two younger brothers and a younger sister and I simply cannot imagine how I would deal with it should I be faced with a similar situation. I grew up skiing at Mammoth and June and thought I knew how extensive the terrain is. Now I realize I didn't have a clue.

I believe with every ounce of my being that no matter where Matt is, he is proud of your strength and your love. May Matt be found soon so that you and your family will have the answers you need. And thank you for sharing an extraordinary man with us. Matt will never, ever be forgotten.

Sending you and your family prayers.

Julie
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:53am PT
I was just notified to check this thread, hope everyone is doing well.

-Have you had any more visions, intuitions, or dreams related to Matt?

Unfortunately, the majority of my visions as of late haven't been much of an indicator to location. Since there have been so many people sharing their visions and experience (which is great!), I'm trying to look past trivial information/dreams that is not relevant to the exact location of Matt.

I've had two dreams of him since last posting -- one dream was a bird's eye view of a campground, and I randomly flew south.
The second was Matt and a Caucasian man with balding hair. May have just been a memory he had, or simply a meaningless dream. Either way, neither bits of information seemed definitive enough to post.

-In the vision where Matt was falling, how strong was your impression that there was a dome-shaped feature or mountain nearby? In other words, how important is “dome-shaped”? If it was a crucial element, and we posted some pictures of dome-shaped things, do you think one might ring a bell? (I know you said you didn’t see it full on.)

My impression was pretty solid about the dome, it certainly felt nearby. I wouldn't put incredible emphasis on the "dome shape", as I didn't see it directly and therefore may not be incredibly relevant, but it was what I call a "landmark", or a geographical base in an area to help determine a general location based on notable surrounding elements. I've received quite a few pictures of domes and mountains, and though a few happen to be incredibly similar in their terrain, rock color/texture, etc., nothing directly rings a bell as the dome wasn't clearly visible.

-You said that the mountain where he was falling was made of dark rock – sort of gravelly, near the bottom of the mountain, of big dark-gray clumps of rock around four to six inches. Can you remember whether these rocks were more shiny, sharp-edged, or crystalline, or whether they were more dull, opaque, or rounded? Or somehow both?


The rocks I saw would be fairly sharp, opaque, and "boring". It looked like the equivalent to what the rocks from a sidewalk being smashed (in terms of the consistency, texture, etc.) would look like. Sharp, but nothing spectacular in the color. Pretty solid through and through.

-Did you have any sense of where the “falling from a mountainside” vision was located, in relation to the “standing on a wide trail or unpaved road and looking at the mountains” vision? Did you feel they were in a similar place, or that they could have been widely separated?

I think the two visions were within decent proximity. My personal belief was that the two peaks could be a reference to some mountains near Mammoth Crest, however my vision very well may be a reference to other twin peaks, mountains, etc. Again, in compiling people's visions/dreams/etc., my goal is to establish information that can be used to locate Matt with relative ease. As I've looked in these visions, it has been difficult to find certain visible landmarks (other than the dome reference and the twin mountains) as the entire area and terrain is disorientingly similar in certain areas.

If I had to suggest something worth looking into, more than anything, I'd look at the reference to the wooden railing. It's a relatively unique feature that we might be able to look into further, specifically what trails have railing, and if so, what they look like. As far as I know, searching the Mountain Crest area hasn't been emphasized, as it's most likely too well traveled to harbor Matt. Therefore, I want to stick with my visions and not add my own personal opinion to where they may be, considering I've never been to the specific area. The twin peaks very well may be West, as many have suggested.

T

lazydays

climber
Nazareth, PA
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:56am PT
Lazydays, I am so sorry for your loss.
Your thoughts for Tiffany are wonderful.

pacarockhound - Just wanted to clarify that my son was only missing for about 10 minutes - the ten longest minutes of my life. And I will never forget that ... ever.

I did lose my sister just over three years ago (on her 45th birthday) to cancer. I can truly relate to the pain in loss of a sibling and the emotions, including helplessness that comes with it. The not knowing...I just couldn't imagine.

My heart aches for Matt's family and friends.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Group mandala creation with rocks, twigs, flower blossoms, etc. for Fi...
Group mandala creation with rocks, twigs, flower blossoms, etc. for Finding Matt Greene. Saturday, Sept 14, 7PM at Escondido Art Partnership Gallery, Main & Juniper. Outdoors, for creating beauty and sending healing and loving energy to Matt Greene, and
Credit: pacarockhound
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 14, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Hi Tiffany,

This is a very difficult situation; my thoughts are with you and your family. I think it’s natural that you feel different things at different times and that you sometimes feel numb.

Regarding P’s vision, given that Matt was calling for someone named John in it, I wonder whether the location described would ring a bell with John…

(Regarding the directions, P may have meant exactly what she said, but I was wondering – if she’s from the east coast she might have gotten her directions turned around the way I did when I moved out here...)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 14, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Hi Donna,

Good to see you on the forum. (I try to ignore the bitey types.)

You mentioned
I should mention I sent photos of an area near there where the infamous fence leads to a trail off of Sherwin Creek rd that leads to Mammoth Rock which leads to the Lake Basin which leads to Crystal Lake, Mammoth Crest etc. etc.

That’s the Mammoth Rock Trail, right? It also starts east of the campground…
http://www.mammothtrails.org/trail/22/mammoth-rock-trail/

According to the caption, the Wikipedia Mammoth Mountain picture with that post-and-wire fence was taken from route 395, meaning that it's east of the campground and also east of town. Do you happen to know whether the fence runs along 395, or does it kind of go cross-country? I gather that Sherwin Creek Road makes a T intersection with 395. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammoth_Mountain.jpg

Do you happen to know whether there are a bunch of similar fences around the area?
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 14, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Actually, the International Distress Signal is 3 of anything.....flashes of light, whistle blasts, logs laid out next to each other, hash marks tracked out in the snow, etc.----------

this is from an old post by Cragman.


I am thinking about the intuitive "P" saying she kept getting the number three......
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 14, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Yes, LAHiker, the trail I wondered about is Mammoth Rock trail. It leads to Lake Basin.

Yes, it looks like Sherwin Creek Rd. crosses the 395 (on the map) but I am not familiar with that section of it.

I don't see a lot of fences like that but I will pay more attention. The most obvious fence, and hiking area East of the campground that I found is here

http://www.summitpost.org/hot-creek/390352/c-390239

The ice axe would not make sense there but so much of this is a mystery.

This website gives you an indication of areas where hikers /climbers get in trouble and how busy SAR is. It took 2 days of solid searching to find the deceased hiker in Rock Creek and they knew where to look! http://www.monosar.org/operations.html
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Hi Tyler,

Thanks for your responses to my questions! If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the rocks at the bottom of the mountain looked sharp, opaque, and kind of like what a sidewalk would look like if you smashed it. (I think you said it was a dark gray, though I think of sidewalks as being a lighter color…)

You say you’ve received pictures of domes and mountains and that a few were similar in their terrain, rock color, texture, etc. I understand that you want to focus on compiling people’s visions & dreams to get info that others might use to easily locate Matt, and that you don’t want to speculate about location yourself.

I agree that there are a lot of places in the area with similar terrain and features – many steep slopes with cliffs above them, dome-shaped mountains/formations, wide paths with mountain views, etc., so it’s hard to use the info to pinpoint a particular location.

But I’m wondering – might it make sense to share a couple of the pictures you’ve received that have aspects similar to those in your visions? You could make clear that you’re not saying Matt was at this particular mountain, just that (for instance) the rocky slope in the picture was the same color and texture as the one in your vision. I mean, you know what that looked like, but it would be good if others could too.

That way, if searchers who are open to such things saw a similar rocky slope or whatever, they could pay special attention. Anyway, it’s just a thought.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 15, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
LA Hiker,

Great idea!
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:50am PT
Pacarockhound, thanks! Ad thanks for thinking of that post by Cragman in relation to P’s vision – I think it's an excellent point that three of anything is an international distress signal. (I was also wondering if 3rd class rock could be referred to – as in, this was only supposed to be 3rd class rock!)

Hikesfortheview, thanks for your further thoughts and for the Mono SAR link – some of those accounts are hair-raising…

Thanks also for the link to Hot Creek with the fence. I’m glad you’re going to keep your eyes out for such fences.

Because Hot Creek is part of the Mammoth Lakes Trail system, maybe we could talk with someone who maintains the fences and who might also be familiar with the other kind of fence Tyler mentioned. While Hot Creek itself might be unlikely as somewhere Matt may have gone, maybe the same kind of fence is also found in more likely locations. (I hope to post some thoughts about possible locations shortly.)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:29am PT
On the assumption that useful info can be gotten from people's visions and dreams, I’ve been thinking about various locations. This is my own take on things, based on which people and visions resonate with me the most – someone else may weigh or synthesize things differently. Tyler’s excellent compilation is more thorough -- I know I've left a lot of important things out -- and he’s more used to this sort of info, but here goes anyway.

While not all of the visions can be correct, they have some common threads: Matt falls down, perhaps into a ravine or cleft or narrow place, is injured and maybe can’t move, and is looking up at the sky which is partly obscured.

Caveat: It’s not always clear whether something in a vision should be taken literally or symbolically – does the number 3 mean distress, three mountains, or three missing pieces of gear? Does the color blue and diamonds or crystals refer to trail markers, names of places, rocks that look like crystals, ice, or a sliver of sky seen by an injured Matt? Of course, elements can have multiple meanings and levels.

Another issue: Some of the dreams and visions appear to be pointing in a different direction than some of the “hard” evidence and its interpretation. As Donna notes, the gear Matt had with him (ice axe, crampons, winter mountaineering boots) points to a destination with snow, and his character and habits might suggest a challenging or classic climb or hike, but some of the visions and dreams appear to be pointing away from areas with snow.

Of course, something could have happened to Matt on the way to a bigger hike, or on the way to a ride, or he might have taken a turn around the neighborhood before the shuttle started in the morning. And the dreams and visions may suggest things to look for even within the main area suggested by the "hard" evidence, namely, the Ritter Range. So here are some rough criteria:

Major criteria
-involves a treeless, rocky slope of the sort Tyler described
(not super-steep, has 4 to 6 inch clumps of gray (dark gray?) rock
-above that slope is a more cliff-like area
(I think Tyler said there might be some snow or ice up there)
-the slope was near a post and barbed-wire fence
-possibly near a dome-shaped mountain
-may involve a ravine or a crevice between rocks where you could fall
-path to area may involve view of two mountains in distance
-may be east of campground (assuming P’s directions are right)
-may be fairly close (within several miles) from campground
-may be near trail marked by blue diamonds
-may be near a feature named “blue” or “crystal”
-may have crystal-like rocks
-may be near three mountains-tops or boulders to east of campground
(middle one is taller) – may be between second and third
-may be in Mammoth Crest area

Extra points for: near stream or water with turtles; has snakes or near snake-shaped creek or other water; may be near stream you can drive through; not very far from wide trail with post and beam fence; may be near old mines; near Glass Creek; near lake shaped like an arrowhead pointing north.

Practical criteria:
-Could fit into plausible narrative of what Matt did that day
-Reachable by him in a dayhike or if he had a ride
-has snow or on the way to somewhere that does (or Matt could have thought area might have snow)
-Fits with Matt's skills and interests: tends to do challenging/classic climbs and hikes but relatively cautious
-Not so dangerous that he wouldn’t have done it without his helmet
-Has rocks that might have tempted him
-Not already thoroughly searched or so well-traveled he would have been found there already
-Has somewhere where you could fall down.
-Ease of search – is area small or well-defined? How hard is it to search an area? (I'm not saying he's more likely to be in easily searched area, just that if an area was promising and easy to search one could do so.)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:43am PT
Now I’ll consider some trails and areas in relation to these rough criteria. I’m not saying we should run out and search all these places (and some have already been searched) – I’m just considering them in relation to the criteria. This list is a sampling. I welcome additions, comments, and corrections, especially from those familiar with the area.

Trails near Shady Rest Campground – the Shady Rest Trail is easy and unexciting, but it’s marked with blue diamonds. From the topo map, it looks like there are some trails/roads to the east of the campground that may go to some bluffs above 395 (and maybe near post and wire fences) that might have some steep places.

Earthquake Fault Trail
Pro – A blue diamond trail. Not far from campground (though not to east). Rocks one can fall down between; crevices to fall into.
Con – very well-traveled – Matt would have been found unless there are some more obscure nooks and crannies there? Easy and might be hard to fit into a narrative of Matt's day. No snow. One of the two Donnas did some searching in this area but was unable to get to some more obscure and dangerous parts of it.

“Back” – south side – of Mammoth Mountain
Pro: Not far from campground. Steep places where one could fall down. Dome-shaped mountain. Matt could have gone there to watch sun rise. Does this have rocky slopes with cliffs? Definitely has rocks. Some ski trails there are marked with black diamonds and blue squares (but those are mostly on the front of the mountain, where he would have been found). Has some fumeroles that have overcome people with C02 emissions.
Con: No snow, right? Even the back side of the mountain is probably very well-traveled – are there any obscure places there? Fumeroles only get you if you’re in an enclosed space.

Mammoth Crest area
Pro – area Matt showed Tyler in a dream. Good climbing up there. Many rocky slopes with cliffs above. Lots of views of other mountains.

Con – little to no snow this year due to drought, and Matt probably knew that – he went to the area three times that we know of. Very large area so must consider specific parts of it as well as trails in nearby (very large) lake basin area – I’ll mention one of these first.

Mammoth Rock Trail
Pro – trailhead is east of campground, near post and wire fence. Goes up to steep area with old mines and with Old Mammoth road. Probably has wide trail with good view of peaks. Short trail – easy to check out
Con – no snow – why would Matt have gone in that direction?

Blue Crag
Pro: “Blue.” Rocky slopes with cliffs above (not sure rock texture/color matches)
Con: Many climbs there very difficult, unlikely for Matt to do solo and without helmet. No snow up there this year.

Blue Couloir
Pro: “Blue.” Right next to Blue Crag with its rocky slopes. Many years has snow.
Con: This year the snow was gone by then and Matt probably knew that.

Crystal Crag
Pro – “Crystal.” Not far from Crystal Lake (arrowhead shaped, pointing north.)
Con – no snow at all. Matt had spent a day climbing there and tended not to repeat climbs.

Inyo/Mono domes area
Pro – called domes – kind of dome-shaped. Treeless, rocky slopes. Near Glass Creek. Also has craters you can fall into, with steep slopes and water.
Con – the rocks may not look like the ones Tyler saw, which were opaque, dull, and gray. At least at Obsidian Dome I think the rocks are more brightly colored and shiny. I don’t think there are really big cliffs there. No snow at all.

Ritter Range, including Mount Ritter, Banner Peak, the Minarets, and various passes and notches. I’m also including the nearby lake area and meadows. As we all know, this vast and rugged area is the prime search area; it has been discussed extensively and searched to some extent. I will only consider it briefly in relation to the rough criteria.

Pro: Matt had expressed interest in the area; he tore out those pages from the Secor guidebook. It’s one of the only areas near Mammoth Lakes that still had snow in mid-July (and glaciers), which fit with Matt’s gear. Many treeless rocky slopes with more cliff-like areas above and with snow on top of that. I think many of the slopes resemble the one Tyler saw. Many slippery rocks to fall between. One can also fall in “moats” next to glaciers and into bergschrunds, which are too dangerous to search. Gullies with streams from glacier melt.

Con: No connection with “blue,” “crystal” (unless the reference was to ice or to a sliver of sky.) Mountains don’t seem very dome-shaped. Not near campground nor to its east. I don't know if there are any post-and-wire fences there -- haven't seen them in photos close to the mountains. Suspect if there are any, would be lower down, on the approach, in areas closer to the meadows. Finally, Matt had to get to area from campground – it seems likely he had a ride, though no one has come forward yet.

Also in that general area, Volcanic Ridge has rocky slopes, cliffs, and lots of places to fall down, but no snow. Also the rocks may be different from the ones Tyler saw, though I think Tyler at one point dreamed of a volcanic area with dark rock. The “standard” cross-country route between Ediza and Minaret Lake (or vice versa) has rocky slopes like the ones Tyler saw, steep places, lakes, streams, but little snow.

Even within this large area, the visions may encourage one to pay attention to certain features. For instance, Cragman suspects that rather than a dramatic fall from a high place, Matt had an injury that pinned him down. The visions instead suggest a fall into a crevice or ravine. Though crystals are mentioned, ice is not, possibly implying a ravine or gully or crevice (or maybe a moat) more than a bergschrund, which (as I understand it) has ice on both sides. Also, if there are any fences of the sort Tyler saw in the area, one could look near them.
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