Mammoth topography in regards to Visions (FindMattGreene)


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Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
Hi Tyler,

Thanks for your responses to my questions! If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the rocks at the bottom of the mountain looked sharp, opaque, and kind of like what a sidewalk would look like if you smashed it. (I think you said it was a dark gray, though I think of sidewalks as being a lighter color…)

You say you’ve received pictures of domes and mountains and that a few were similar in their terrain, rock color, texture, etc. I understand that you want to focus on compiling people’s visions & dreams to get info that others might use to easily locate Matt, and that you don’t want to speculate about location yourself.

I agree that there are a lot of places in the area with similar terrain and features – many steep slopes with cliffs above them, dome-shaped mountains/formations, wide paths with mountain views, etc., so it’s hard to use the info to pinpoint a particular location.

But I’m wondering – might it make sense to share a couple of the pictures you’ve received that have aspects similar to those in your visions? You could make clear that you’re not saying Matt was at this particular mountain, just that (for instance) the rocky slope in the picture was the same color and texture as the one in your vision. I mean, you know what that looked like, but it would be good if others could too.

That way, if searchers who are open to such things saw a similar rocky slope or whatever, they could pay special attention. Anyway, it’s just a thought.

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 15, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
LA Hiker,

Great idea!

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:50am PT
Pacarockhound, thanks! Ad thanks for thinking of that post by Cragman in relation to P’s vision – I think it's an excellent point that three of anything is an international distress signal. (I was also wondering if 3rd class rock could be referred to – as in, this was only supposed to be 3rd class rock!)

Hikesfortheview, thanks for your further thoughts and for the Mono SAR link – some of those accounts are hair-raising…

Thanks also for the link to Hot Creek with the fence. I’m glad you’re going to keep your eyes out for such fences.

Because Hot Creek is part of the Mammoth Lakes Trail system, maybe we could talk with someone who maintains the fences and who might also be familiar with the other kind of fence Tyler mentioned. While Hot Creek itself might be unlikely as somewhere Matt may have gone, maybe the same kind of fence is also found in more likely locations. (I hope to post some thoughts about possible locations shortly.)

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:29am PT
On the assumption that useful info can be gotten from people's visions and dreams, I’ve been thinking about various locations. This is my own take on things, based on which people and visions resonate with me the most – someone else may weigh or synthesize things differently. Tyler’s excellent compilation is more thorough -- I know I've left a lot of important things out -- and he’s more used to this sort of info, but here goes anyway.

While not all of the visions can be correct, they have some common threads: Matt falls down, perhaps into a ravine or cleft or narrow place, is injured and maybe can’t move, and is looking up at the sky which is partly obscured.

Caveat: It’s not always clear whether something in a vision should be taken literally or symbolically – does the number 3 mean distress, three mountains, or three missing pieces of gear? Does the color blue and diamonds or crystals refer to trail markers, names of places, rocks that look like crystals, ice, or a sliver of sky seen by an injured Matt? Of course, elements can have multiple meanings and levels.

Another issue: Some of the dreams and visions appear to be pointing in a different direction than some of the “hard” evidence and its interpretation. As Donna notes, the gear Matt had with him (ice axe, crampons, winter mountaineering boots) points to a destination with snow, and his character and habits might suggest a challenging or classic climb or hike, but some of the visions and dreams appear to be pointing away from areas with snow.

Of course, something could have happened to Matt on the way to a bigger hike, or on the way to a ride, or he might have taken a turn around the neighborhood before the shuttle started in the morning. And the dreams and visions may suggest things to look for even within the main area suggested by the "hard" evidence, namely, the Ritter Range. So here are some rough criteria:

Major criteria
-involves a treeless, rocky slope of the sort Tyler described
(not super-steep, has 4 to 6 inch clumps of gray (dark gray?) rock
-above that slope is a more cliff-like area
(I think Tyler said there might be some snow or ice up there)
-the slope was near a post and barbed-wire fence
-possibly near a dome-shaped mountain
-may involve a ravine or a crevice between rocks where you could fall
-path to area may involve view of two mountains in distance
-may be east of campground (assuming P’s directions are right)
-may be fairly close (within several miles) from campground
-may be near trail marked by blue diamonds
-may be near a feature named “blue” or “crystal”
-may have crystal-like rocks
-may be near three mountains-tops or boulders to east of campground
(middle one is taller) – may be between second and third
-may be in Mammoth Crest area

Extra points for: near stream or water with turtles; has snakes or near snake-shaped creek or other water; may be near stream you can drive through; not very far from wide trail with post and beam fence; may be near old mines; near Glass Creek; near lake shaped like an arrowhead pointing north.

Practical criteria:
-Could fit into plausible narrative of what Matt did that day
-Reachable by him in a dayhike or if he had a ride
-has snow or on the way to somewhere that does (or Matt could have thought area might have snow)
-Fits with Matt's skills and interests: tends to do challenging/classic climbs and hikes but relatively cautious
-Not so dangerous that he wouldn’t have done it without his helmet
-Has rocks that might have tempted him
-Not already thoroughly searched or so well-traveled he would have been found there already
-Has somewhere where you could fall down.
-Ease of search – is area small or well-defined? How hard is it to search an area? (I'm not saying he's more likely to be in easily searched area, just that if an area was promising and easy to search one could do so.)

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:43am PT
Now I’ll consider some trails and areas in relation to these rough criteria. I’m not saying we should run out and search all these places (and some have already been searched) – I’m just considering them in relation to the criteria. This list is a sampling. I welcome additions, comments, and corrections, especially from those familiar with the area.

Trails near Shady Rest Campground – the Shady Rest Trail is easy and unexciting, but it’s marked with blue diamonds. From the topo map, it looks like there are some trails/roads to the east of the campground that may go to some bluffs above 395 (and maybe near post and wire fences) that might have some steep places.

Earthquake Fault Trail
Pro – A blue diamond trail. Not far from campground (though not to east). Rocks one can fall down between; crevices to fall into.
Con – very well-traveled – Matt would have been found unless there are some more obscure nooks and crannies there? Easy and might be hard to fit into a narrative of Matt's day. No snow. One of the two Donnas did some searching in this area but was unable to get to some more obscure and dangerous parts of it.

“Back” – south side – of Mammoth Mountain
Pro: Not far from campground. Steep places where one could fall down. Dome-shaped mountain. Matt could have gone there to watch sun rise. Does this have rocky slopes with cliffs? Definitely has rocks. Some ski trails there are marked with black diamonds and blue squares (but those are mostly on the front of the mountain, where he would have been found). Has some fumeroles that have overcome people with C02 emissions.
Con: No snow, right? Even the back side of the mountain is probably very well-traveled – are there any obscure places there? Fumeroles only get you if you’re in an enclosed space.

Mammoth Crest area
Pro – area Matt showed Tyler in a dream. Good climbing up there. Many rocky slopes with cliffs above. Lots of views of other mountains.

Con – little to no snow this year due to drought, and Matt probably knew that – he went to the area three times that we know of. Very large area so must consider specific parts of it as well as trails in nearby (very large) lake basin area – I’ll mention one of these first.

Mammoth Rock Trail
Pro – trailhead is east of campground, near post and wire fence. Goes up to steep area with old mines and with Old Mammoth road. Probably has wide trail with good view of peaks. Short trail – easy to check out
Con – no snow – why would Matt have gone in that direction?

Blue Crag
Pro: “Blue.” Rocky slopes with cliffs above (not sure rock texture/color matches)
Con: Many climbs there very difficult, unlikely for Matt to do solo and without helmet. No snow up there this year.

Blue Couloir
Pro: “Blue.” Right next to Blue Crag with its rocky slopes. Many years has snow.
Con: This year the snow was gone by then and Matt probably knew that.

Crystal Crag
Pro – “Crystal.” Not far from Crystal Lake (arrowhead shaped, pointing north.)
Con – no snow at all. Matt had spent a day climbing there and tended not to repeat climbs.

Inyo/Mono domes area
Pro – called domes – kind of dome-shaped. Treeless, rocky slopes. Near Glass Creek. Also has craters you can fall into, with steep slopes and water.
Con – the rocks may not look like the ones Tyler saw, which were opaque, dull, and gray. At least at Obsidian Dome I think the rocks are more brightly colored and shiny. I don’t think there are really big cliffs there. No snow at all.

Ritter Range, including Mount Ritter, Banner Peak, the Minarets, and various passes and notches. I’m also including the nearby lake area and meadows. As we all know, this vast and rugged area is the prime search area; it has been discussed extensively and searched to some extent. I will only consider it briefly in relation to the rough criteria.

Pro: Matt had expressed interest in the area; he tore out those pages from the Secor guidebook. It’s one of the only areas near Mammoth Lakes that still had snow in mid-July (and glaciers), which fit with Matt’s gear. Many treeless rocky slopes with more cliff-like areas above and with snow on top of that. I think many of the slopes resemble the one Tyler saw. Many slippery rocks to fall between. One can also fall in “moats” next to glaciers and into bergschrunds, which are too dangerous to search. Gullies with streams from glacier melt.

Con: No connection with “blue,” “crystal” (unless the reference was to ice or to a sliver of sky.) Mountains don’t seem very dome-shaped. Not near campground nor to its east. I don't know if there are any post-and-wire fences there -- haven't seen them in photos close to the mountains. Suspect if there are any, would be lower down, on the approach, in areas closer to the meadows. Finally, Matt had to get to area from campground – it seems likely he had a ride, though no one has come forward yet.

Also in that general area, Volcanic Ridge has rocky slopes, cliffs, and lots of places to fall down, but no snow. Also the rocks may be different from the ones Tyler saw, though I think Tyler at one point dreamed of a volcanic area with dark rock. The “standard” cross-country route between Ediza and Minaret Lake (or vice versa) has rocky slopes like the ones Tyler saw, steep places, lakes, streams, but little snow.

Even within this large area, the visions may encourage one to pay attention to certain features. For instance, Cragman suspects that rather than a dramatic fall from a high place, Matt had an injury that pinned him down. The visions instead suggest a fall into a crevice or ravine. Though crystals are mentioned, ice is not, possibly implying a ravine or gully or crevice (or maybe a moat) more than a bergschrund, which (as I understand it) has ice on both sides. Also, if there are any fences of the sort Tyler saw in the area, one could look near them.

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:51am PT
Great job!

I am wondering how many people searched this weekend, and where.

Also hope this info in such a concise form can be shared with those on the ground.

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 03:02am PT
One more thought.

There must be a Mammoth Lakes Business Association, Chamber of Commerce, etc.

Also, Yosemite and even that town in Nevada with possible sighting -

Can the Find Matt Greene poster (and/or video)be sent to them?

They can then send to all their members.

I can do this if you want.

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 03:09am PT
Thanks, Pacarockhound!

I hope people familiar with the area (and/or with the dreams and visions) can look this material over, add other areas, and correct any errors before it's shared with others.

Regarding sharing this with people on the ground, I think it's only effective to share this sort of material with those who are open to it. After all, this set of criteria emphasizes dreams and visions as strongly as practical things, which is a little weird and experimental.

Also, different people may quite reasonably weigh different features differently. For instance, if you rule out all areas without snow, you're back with the Ritter Range area and with any places Matt might have gone on the way (as well as any more distant places with snow he might have gotten a ride to).

But maybe some of the areas I mentioned could be the basis of some non-technical searches...

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 16, 2013 - 03:17am PT
That's a very impressive organization of a lot of miscellaneous ideas, LA Hiker. If only the thread dealing with purely material clues were that organized!

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 03:21am PT
Thanks, Jan!

In fairness to the other thread, I think I must say that SplitPants has made amazing compilations of info from that thread and other sources (timelines, info known, gear, etc.), but at the moment they're rather far down in that thread. (I can put in some links tomorrow -- right now must conk out.)

Some of SplitPants's compilations are based on Tiffany's excellent collections of info. Kellydoesntclimb has created and regularly updates a map of places of interest; others have annotated maps as well. Cragman's reports are wonderful and moving documents, and HighTraverse has drawn search areas onto Tom Cochrane's panoramic aerial photos. Not to mention much sound logic, good reasoning, caring and positivity by a host of others, and most important, the patience and perseverance of Matt's family and friends during a very difficult time.

We have a lot of talent and passion here. I hope we can find Matt!

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 16, 2013 - 03:51am PT
Yes, many people have contributed a lot of valuable information. Some have even commented that it was too much information. That's why I like what you did. It's concise enough it's not overwhelming.

Social climber
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
I came across this today and thought that it matched one of the psychic's visions...the one about the couple from a different era.

"...I was there in 1973 to climb Ritter and Banner (did Ritter via the west face hence the route through the Ritter Lakes). Glacier Pass is very easy (class 1 to 2), although you pass this ominous gravesite on the way up "Here lies Conrad and Anna Redenbacher". I didn't know what that was all about until reading Allsup's excellent "Missing in the Minarets". Apparently they were a couple killed in 1934 on the east face of Banner (whose bodies, like Starr's, were found by Norman Clyde). I vividly remember Catherine and especially Ritter Lakes as having been the most beautiful lakes I had ever seen up to that time. Unbelievably deep blue. Walking from Catherine around the corner to the Ritter Lakes was trivial--mixed talus (not particularly hard as I recall) with some easy bedrock--all class 1 to 2 stuff."

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
That is fascinating. I will pass that info onto my friend who had that vision of the couple....

In terms of searching for Matt------I guess this could mean several things.

1. He hiked past this grave
2. He ran into trouble near this grave
3. .......?

Noteworthy: "the unbelievable deep blue....."

AND, most important - has this gravesite area been searched??????**

East face of the Minaret....? edit: rather, east face of Banner

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Is this the area where gravesite is?

This is from a post on searching the minaret glacier that Cragman wrote awhile back:
As I was driving down south this morning, I was thinking of where my next area of search might be....and since my left foot is gonna hinder me for the next couple of weeks, perhaps there is a team that might be keen on searching this particular spot.

It would be the shoulder just below the direct east face of Clyde Minaret and above Cecile Lake, wrapping around to the north, ending at the south side of the main gully that I climbed into below the glacier.

If Matthew came in via the Red's trailhead, with the intent of gaining the east glacier, he may have traversed this area. Cup and I simply did not have time to include it in our last foray posted herein, other than to glass it with binoculars.

It should be implicitly said that this area should only be searched by people with a strong climbing background!!!! The area is not overtly steep, and is mostly 2nd to 4th class, but there is LOTS of loose talus and scree, making it VERY dangerous!

If anyone is interested, I would be glad to talk more with you about it...leave a message here and I will PM ya.

DR Italic Text//

Has anyone searched here yet?

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 12:15am PT

My psychic friend who had the vision of the couple from the 1930s being buried did another meditation this afternoon and this is what she got:



A meadow, waist-high grass, dry, straw-like; a few trees, maybe Oak. I thought of snakes in the meadow grass here, hard to see them... remembering Wendy's “Snake” River... might he have been bitten by a snake?

A stream nearby or running through or at the edge, of the meadow, maybe near the trees. Is that stream called "Snake" something? Is this the same stream where I saw the red vehicle trying to cross? The dirt road dips down to the creek bed and crosses it. The wheels of the vehicles roll through the water of the stream to cross.

A Cafe. He ate there. I got the taste of dill pickles-- he ate them before he left. May have left from there to hike. Did he like dill pickles? Cafe is in a forested area, or among trees... a campground?

Perhaps a medium could contact the Redenbachers, the couple who died there & were buried there in the 1930's. I picked them up during my last meditation. I think they may have helped Matt after he passed, or are at least aware of what happened. --Gwyn

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 01:48am PT
I just ran across this post from Friend Lost in Mammoth thread, aug 25th
from Tiffany I think-----I hadn't seen this before

Pretty sure Head gasket blew around July 4th; had to wait for holiday to pass to get car into shop. Confirming w my parents. Can you say longest repair ever?

It was so much time, I think he did anything and everything to pass the time. His friends did say all his clohes were clean, folded, organized like he'd just done laundry. No doubt preparing to leave town.

Ok, going to go off on a tangent here. Not sure if none believes in psychics. I don't usually bother with them but when there are no other clues, well, several of us did touch base with them. About the only interesting one was the following:

-She feels to look within a mile radius of where his car is. (That would have been the garage where it was being fixed.) She sees a walkway/road with a rail of some sort, from there if you look over it, there is water. She feels he fell, didn't get severely injured from the fall but needed help and didn't have reception. Feels he was bit by a snake in his calf and he may be in a ravine. She said she had seen this over and over. If she sees anything additional she will call me.-

The other thing that has been bugging Matt's friends is that all the evidence seems to indicate that Matt spent the day of the 16th in town. We saw that he “liked” and commented on an article on Summitpost on a topic that indicated he was just killing time. His laundry was clean and folded. He went to Rite Aid. His campsite was paid for that night. So we assume that he went off for a day hike on the morning of the 17th. His phone records show that he spoke to the garage on the 16th and was told the car would be done on the 18th. The confusing thing is that Detective Hornbeck and Bill Green said that his calls at 8:12 and 3:09 on the 16th were from town (according to the ping off the tower) and the 4:30-4:35 calls to/from the garage were pinging from on top of mammoth or north of there. Which makes no sense. Why would he be in town all day and then go up to mountain.


So, Andrea (one of Matt's friends that went back out), has been keeping in touch w Donna (driver out there who was super helpful) and they've been relaying back and forth.

One of the possibilities discussed was Earthquake Vault: in a MSG from Donna: "Just got back from a hike up at the Earthquake Fault with a friend. Spent a hour and a half there. Mile from town, ravine, railing, no water, no snakes. You can get cell phone reception there just a bit North, East of the mountain. Hiked along the rim. Did not go into the bottom. Parts of it are very steep and cant get into it, at least someone my age cant but someone younger could go down in there and check it out. Might be a bit dangerous. Funny thing is that there is a trail my friend said that goes from Shady Rest Campground directly to the Earthquake Fault. Don't believe much in psychics, but I'm thinking I may change my mind here. "

One of Donna's friends also said, "If he did stay in town and the first psychic is accurate, then he could have walked up the bike path on Lake Mary Rd. Once you get up toward Tamarack, there is a rushing creek that is a big drop down into a ravine and I think a railing. Maybe the cell phone ping from the mountain would occur if he were up there?"

So everyone, take that for what you will. Wanted to share; might be easy quick places to search and prove psychic right or wrong.

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 17, 2013 - 02:09am PT

Thanks for reposting that. Tiffany and Donna's messages are why I included the Earthquake Fault Trail in my list of places. But I hadn't noticed the part about Lake Mary road, the ravine, and the railing. Though it sounds like a very well-traveled area, it would probably be worth double-checking. Maybe Donna has some thoughts on this.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:04am PT
... there is a trail ... that goes from Shady Rest Campground directly to the Earthquake Fault.
Not so.

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:42am PT
Perhaps a wording problem? Maybe a road rather than a trail? I believe the speaker lives in Mammoth Lakes and is basing that comment on first hand experience?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 05:10am PT
Agreed - you could get there by different roads etc, but the statement as was posted is fairly misleading (wrong).
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