Mammoth topography in regards to Visions (FindMattGreene)

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tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 28, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Obviously not everyone wants to explore these avenues and I completely understand that, but I have so many people emailing so many different things, so...

Rec'd a new one. Was interested to see if anyone who knows the area knows of any actual existence of the some of the fixtures mentioned towards the end:

"I've talked with three other clairvoyant mediums and showed them a photo of Matt. Each one said that they felt he's deceased, was incredibly thirsty, and fell down a cliff, ravine, etc. One suggested foul play, but I vehemently disagree. I'm definitely feeling like this isn't a homicide or anything along those lines.

Interestingly enough, I had a dream of Matt on a dark colored mountain side with no trees. It wasn't particularly steep, but he was climbing upwards and as he climbed reached a more "cliff-like" mountain side. In the vision, he fell back, tumbled, and dropped out of sight.

As I had this vision, he mentioned the blue diamond, blue crystal, etc. and mentioned a play on words. With no idea as to what this could mean, I consulted my resources and found this:

Blue Square - Considered “intermediate” trails that are steeper than beginner trails yet easy enough for intermediate skiers to ski on, Blue Square trails aren't extremely steep. They are popular trails at most resorts because they provide skiing that’s fun but not scary. Generally groomed, some Blue Square trails have easy moguls or extremely easy glades.

Black Diamond - Difficult trails that are for advanced skiers. Black Diamond trails can be steep, narrow, or ungroomed. Other challenges, such as icy conditions, may cause a trail to be marked as a Black Diamond. Most glades and mogul trails are Black Diamonds.

In my personal opinion, I feel it's a play on words. The Blue part of "Blue Square" and the Diamond part of "Black Diamond". Essentially, he may be combining the meanings of both to give an idea of the terrain he's in. Basically, he'd be in an area that would be considered "intermediate" and not incredibly steep, with a portion that would be steep, narrow, and ungroomed (as well as potentially icy). It happened to fit my vision from earlier, so I felt it was noteworthy.

Something to think about. In the Facebook photo that was taken of the glasses that were found, on the right lense there's a clear reflection of the back of a man's head wearing a blue baseball cap. Struck me as an eerie coincidence -- most likely just someone else present while the photo was being taken. Nonetheless, there are so many odd little coincidences.

From where I saw him standing as he looked out at the peaks, it was clear that he was either on a large trail or un-paved road. There was a wooden "fence" nearby (best way I can describe it, it was very short and thick). Maybe a railing of some sort to keep people on path. I didn't see anything happen to him at the time, except that I heard screaming and woke up with terrible back pain.

As I was laying down, Matt came through and showed me a map. On this map, he showed me Mammoth Crest, and said that he had a profound interest in going here. He again showed me two prominent mountains beside one another.

There are two areas I'm interested in searching -- unfortunately, they're in two very different areas. He didn't show me a body, but he did say he had intended to visit the Mountain Crest area before heading West to some of the other peaks at another time. In the vision, he said he wasn't well-equipped to do anything too dangerous, he said he wanted to play it smart and do things "the right way".

The other area I'm interested in is North of his camp-ground, but he hasn't given me any signs referring to that as of yet, therefore my primary focus is in the Mountain Crest area (south), and a bit as west as well (heading toward some of the peaks he was interested in scoping out.)

He'd briefly mentioned "Glass Greek", however I didn't get a clear view on why it was of importance. For now, I'll stick with the information about the southern location, and if all else fails, I'll see if he can show me anything about the Inyo area.

The rail/fencing was really interesting. I saw it alongside a trail, and it was built really interestingly. It was a rugged fence that appeared to be made of oak or some other wood. It wasn't painted, and wasn't very tall. It had been there for awhile, as in this wasn't a newly built rail. It was older, worn, and very natural. No paint whatsoever.

In the vision of Matt falling, it looked like he may have been substantially close to a dome or dome-like mountain. Within yards, honestly. I didn't see it "full on" but based on the surrounding terrain, the dome suggestion might be useful. "


So...any thoughts?
~ Tiffany
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
Tiffany,

Very interesting. I don't know the area, but using Google, I notice there's a "Glass Creek" campground, meadow, and trail in the Inyo National Forest, I believe in the vicinity of the Inyo-Mono Craters (!). According to Wikipedia, there are a bunch of craters and domes there, including Obsidian Dome, Glass Creek Dome, Deadman's Summit Dome, etc. I don't know whether they're big enough and look dome-like enough to be the "domed mountain" the person saw, but it sounds promising. They seem abrupt and well-defined; hence one could be a few yards away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono%E2%80%93Inyo_Craters

I don't know why Matt would have brought his Sportiva's, ice axe, and crampons to that area, unless he was on his way somewhere else, but all of this sure is spooky. (It becomes less spooky if this clairvoyant or the others knew about each other's dreams/visions, of course.)

(I wonder whether the two prominent peaks were Banner and Ritter. Do you get a good view of them from the area near Glass Creek and Obsidian Domes?)

Maybe Donna from Mammoth can help with this. She's very familiar with the area, and she and a guy named Tyler over on the FB page were thinking of Mammoth Crest. Maybe she will recognize the particular railing or barrier that was mentioned. I will call this thread to her attention.

(BTW, I had thought "blue diamond" or "blue crystal" might refer to the markers on the "Blue Diamond Trials" cross-country ski routes, or to Crystal Crag or Blue Couloir or something. But maybe it could be a play on words of some sort...)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
Aug 28, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
My dream was Matt holding a long crystal, almost clear whitish blue, about 2.5 feet long. it was less about a diamond, but had A Gem like quality, like a big solid icicle. He was standing up, no hat or helmet, he looked good, like he was not injured or anything, just standing there. Like he was trying to hand me the crystal but was too far away and just could not reach me. Then i woke up, it was intense, it woke me up with a sense of panic. I quickly went back to sleep. No backpack, that I remember, a tee shirt on, with bare arms.

I have never been to or even heard of mammoth lakes before this. The next day I just put the 3 things into google ( crystal, gem and Mammoth lakes). I was surprised to see so many places pop up, gem lake, crystal mountain, crystal lake, etc.. My immediate reaction was this is it, it's crystal lake, but everyone said there is no snow there, it's well traveled, etc. and it just did not fit the facts. So I dismissed it.

When I first saw the glasses, I did not really feel this was what I dreamed or that it was related. but I was surprised by the similarities and hard time dismissing it. I did get excited that we had a strong potential lead. I was the first person to call Alex when he found them, and I said "dude, I have to ask, did you plant these?" The similarities seemed too perfect. he said no way man I'm not like that, and I believe him.

Last week I had another weird dream, it was like I was half awake, half asleep. I felt possessed, I was on my back but could not move my arms or legs. I remember saying "tiff","tiff".

Also last week, I went to Matt's house to go through all his stuff, nothing seemed unusual. Except I found a bag of arrow heads (like old Indian ones) they seemed to pull on me. A few days later while looking at the maps I noticed crystal lake was shaped like an arrow head and I thought wow that's weird. I dismissed it as a coincidence, again it did not fit the facts.

First off, I don't believe in this psychic mumbo jumbo. Secondly, I am only reporting this because we really have nothing to go on and we are grasping at straws, so what the hell...
-Ron



Aug 28, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
Ron,

Thank you very much. You have said a great deal.

(I have to wear an armored suit of Teflon and asbestos around here just to survive.)

Sharing the dreams in detail, that is what I hope RM217 can do also. And perhaps the student who had Matt as a teacher.

My fellow teachers/colleagues we went back to school today.

I think about Matt often, though I don't know him. We're both teachers and climbers.

I'm sad for everyone.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 28, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Play on words? With blueish crystals, sometimes they can be made of obsidian, see these blue crystal wands:
http://www.livingdesigns.co.uk/store/ukcrystals/cryst11.htm
There's Obsidian Dome to which one of the Blue Diamond skiing trails leads...
Indian arrowheads (arrowheads been mentioned) are often made of (black) obsidian, not sure which ones you found. Can Obsidian be one of the possible keywords?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
The words that stand out to me are:

Blue Crystal (gem like)

Arrow heads

tiff



Again, where the glasses were found near Inyo Craters, we have the blue-diamond trail system. Also nearby we have Obsidian Dome, that has provided obsidian material for Native North Americans in the region for 1000s of years. There are arrowheads throughout the nearby region, although getting harder to find now. But there are areas that have a tremendous amount of obsidian chipping material from the making of arrowheads. Tiff could indicate images. It could also indicate Tuff, an extrusive igneous volcanic rock and there is plenty nearby.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
the blue-diamond trail system
is a cross-country skiing trail - part of it goes thru, or very close to Shady Rest campground. The markers are visible on trees there.
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Glass creek area is off 395, a bit further north from town on the way to june lake. No snow or ice there now.
I'm not inclined to think Matt would go there...there are hikes but it's not mountaineering per se. Plus not so close that he'd want to walk there. Interesting connection though.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 28, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Some pics off the internet of Blue Crag
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 28, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Thanks, Crusher! While I initially thought about Obsidian Dome and places near there (which have domes and crystal-like rocks), I'm not sure those domes even look that dome-like. Also, it sounds like the clairvoyant focused a lot on the Mammoth Crest area.

It's certainly true that the images of Matt falling could be a lot of places, though to someone familiar with the area, the details might trigger some specific thoughts.

Donna, a day hiker from Mammoth who is very familiar with the area, looked at this thread and posted the following thoughts about it on FB

The blue diamonds are some kind of trail markers, all over hiking areas on trees. (Not the same as the blue that marks intermediate skiing trails). Crystal? Well the mammoth crest trail is the same as the crystal lake trail. You stay on the trail to get to mammoth crest. Experienced hikers, not me, can keep going to Deer lakes. The bare tree area? May be Horse shoe lake, which leads to McLeod, which leads to reds meadow and other back country. No ice axe required and the areas are popular for day hikers

Though others may have had blue diamond dreams, in Ron's dream, Matt isn't holding a neat little blue diamond like those markers. He's holding a big blue-white crystal. And as Donna remarks above, "the mammoth crest trail is the same as the crystal lake trail." So the question is, could the images refer to Crystal Crag or Crystal Lake? She posted these links:

http://www.mammothtrails.org/destination/41/crystal-crag/#directionsTab
(Crystal Crag was also suggested by rottingjohnny on the other thread.)

Donna remarked on the following link: "Haven't been this summer, but there is usually still snow up high mid July."
http://www.mammothtrails.org/experience/2/hiking-to-crystal-lake/

If the clairvoyant that Tiffany quotes is onto something, the wooden fence might be a giveaway... Does that fence, wide trail, and view sound
familiar to anyone?

ETA: Biotch, those are awesome pictures of Blue Crag!
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
The blue diamond marked trail (not to be confused with a ski run on mammoth mountain) runs from at least the village area (right, biotch?) all the way up to minaret summit. I've mountain biked it. Also goes down that same trail system to mono craters. However, there's no climbing, mountaineering, ice there. It's trail through forest running mostly parallel to the paved road up to main lodge and min. Summit. That's the blue diamond shaped "tag" you see stuck to the trees as in the photo of the glasses from the craters. trail markers.

The interesting thing is that many of these dream or vision words coincide with places or things one would see or that exist in this area - like they are things Matt experienced being there. Not necessarily where he is but they are part of what he just experienced having spent so much time in Mammoth. I'm not sure what to make of it, hopefully time will tell.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
Crusher and others, what about Mammoth Crest -- especially Blue Crag, Blue Couloir, or Crystal Crag -- as possible destinations?

(Matt had apparently gone solo to Mammoth Crest on July 12, but I don't know if it's known exactly what climbs he did there.)
crusher

climber
Santa Monica, CA
Aug 28, 2013 - 11:30pm PT
Crystal crag is a rock climb and while there could be a bit of snow left at its base it's not something you'd need the mountaineering boots, axe or crampons for. Neither do I think you'd need them for anything on the crest right now. I don't know about blue couloir - a local needs to answer about that. Crystal crag is pretty regularly climbed so you'd think someone would have seen something out of the ordinary. It's got about 3 routes that go to the top (and sport bolted routes that don't go to top). The routes that top out I think are all 5.7 or 5.8 and have loose rock, you'd want a helmet and it's also a trad route (meaning you'd be carrying gear and have a partner for belaying). I'm sure people solo it but it seems like the ratings are higher than what matt would have historically done solo...and again no need for the mountaineering gear he presumably took. This is all IMHO!
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2013 - 04:45am PT
when i look at that map from tioga everything in the area is called crystal lake, emerald lake (gem), arrow head lake. these things all fit the dream stuff but not the fact stuff (ice ax, etc..).

We found nothing at the 'fact' sites, maybe is worth checking these areas. Seems too weird that a person like me (im usually the first one to dismiss this stuff) to see all this stuff in a area i have no idea of.

also a seperate psuchic told us she saw an "arrow pointing northwest" When i look at the map, arrow head lake is almost a perfect arrow pointing north west.

again, if i really believed in any of this i would be the first one on a plane out there. BUT too much here to be a coin-i-key-dink...im getting ready to go, is there someone that can check this area before i fly across the country?
~Ron
OutdoorGal

Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
Aug 29, 2013 - 07:35am PT
Hi, all. A couple posters had mentioned Blue Couloir/Blue Crag in the other thread, and I reposted it with interest, but it seemed to be dismissed as someplace Matt would not go. But who knows. It is, according to the poster below, easily accessible and doable from Shady Rest. I think it's near the Mammoth Crest area where Matt had been before (someone local can confirm this; I am not familiar with the area), so maybe he'd feel comfortable hiking back there solo. Did he see Blue Crag from Mammoth Crest and decide he might want to climb it? And most important, the posts below state that Matt would have encountered snow and ice at Blue Couloir, and it's thought that he set out on the 17th equipped for snow and ice. Finally, there are the dream and psychic references with "blue" in them. Blue crystal, blue diamond, etc. I was curious where Blue Couloir was, so I tried to find it on a map, and when I did, I was interested to find, as others have mentioned, geographical features with names like Crystal Lake and Crystal Crag. Maybe these are features he could have passed by on his hike to Blue Couloir? Anyway, just thought it might be worth reposting this info for reference as people are brainstorming....

POSTS FROM EASTSIDE UNDERGROUND
Blue couliar is where I would go if I wanted to test out ice gear/ boots. Very easy approach, not to far out there and one could round trip from shady without shuttle. decievingly steep and definately will find neve/ice, certianly alot closer than the Ritter range which would be a huge day from shady imo. Just an idea, who knows? Good luck

tdg119, in answer to your question, closest is Blue couliar probally under 10 mi from shady and a relatively easy approach.

Blue couliar is located on the south -east end of the mammoth creast . easily viewed from the lakes basin. out of cold water trail head take the trail to emeral lake up towards Hamil . Blue crag is the prominate feature you see on the crest looking SE. from Mammoth Mt. If Mattew was a solid ice climber blue couliar probably would not hold any interest to him, it's just the closest ice to town that I can think of, Bloody is bone dry, after a couple of poor winters only the most north facing are holding snow /ice. Sorry I don't have any photos on my computer. Cheers

POST FROM ß Î Ø T Ç H:
eastside underground's comments about the Blue Crag area has merit. Years ago I almost bought the farm there on the lower snowfield. The fact that Matt had already been climbing/ hiking Mammoth Crest - he may have been attracted back for a closer look at the interesting rock, and ice over there. It seems to me that it would be a fairly easy outing for a search party to head up the Duck Pass trail, and then back NW toward several good vantage points on the ridge overlooking the Blue Crag area, to have a look with binocs etc.


One question: Are "Blue Crag" and "Blue Couloir" one and the same? I assumed they were and used both names in my post but don't want to create confusion.

RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:37am PT
Sharing the dreams in detail, that is what I hope RM217 can do also. And perhaps the student who had Matt as a teacher.




I'll detail the dream as best as possible and also my thoughts right before I fell asleep and right after I woke up.

My dream occured approx 3 weeks ago, but not sure of what day exactly. I think if the date was significant I would have remembered. I did have Matt and the family on my mind when I went to sleep. I specifically thought of Matt's Mom (even though I have never met her and don't know what she even looks like), but, as a mother myself, I thought of her. (And that is not to dismiss the pain from any other family member...because I know this is painful for EVERYONE). Just trying to be detailed here. I don't know if there is any significance at all.

I prayed and actually think I fell asleep during prayer.

In my dream:

I layed down to go to sleep. I was laying on my left side and looking at a window that was off center to the right of a wall. The window frame was white. The wall around the window was white. The window had panes. It was 9 panes, and then it seemed I refocused and saw only 4 panes. There were no curtains, no blind. It was dark outside the window and I couldn't see anything outside except darkness. It wasn't quite black, just seemed dark. I closed my eyes and fell asleep. I awoke abruptly and my eyes were still focused on the window, only the window seemed to be more centered on the wall and closer. I could no longer see the wall around the window, just the window and its frame. And this time, it was just one window, square (with no inside panes). It was brighter outside now, but not like daylight (no sun/sky). It seemed to take a minute to focus on what I was seeing. (Almost like focusing a camera lens). Then the image became very focused. Very vivid. There was a very large tree that covered probably more than 50% of the right side of the window. The tree was unusual because it had a variety of leaves/needles. The "pine" needles I saw were those that were long and well separated from each other. (Looked like this - just an image I googled - http://thehealthyhavenblog.com/2012/10/11/suggested-uses-for-pine-needle-essential-oil/); That was what really stood out in the tree. It was very detailed. I could even see the ridges in the stems. There were other leaves, that I could not identify. Colors were green, different shades, but mostly dark green and shades of brown. I was struck by the vividness and it was then that I realized it was so detailed because the glass was so clean, so clear. Crystal clear. I remember thinking that I had never seen such clear glass. And It was eerily quiet. At first I felt scared. But, I realized it was only quiet on the inside of the room. (I don't know if that meant it wasn't quiet on the outside of the window). It seemed spooky to have this very large tree so close to the window. But, as I stared, my fear seemed to subside. I saw the beauty of the tree and suddenly felt safe. And I felt like I wanted to reach out and touch it. But, I couldn't. I was still lying down. (I was lying down during my entire dream...I saw everything outside the window sideways, as if laying down). And the glass, even though clear, was a barrier. The window appeared to not be able to be opened. I scanned the window. And to the upper left of the tree I saw the blue diamond. And it immediately grabbed me and captivated me. It was bright/shiny. At first, I even thought it was a mirror, but it was blue. A bright (but not dark) shiny blue. It was like the color of the sky (on a bright day). It was in the shape of a diamond (not like a ring, but like the shape). It was not "vertical" but rather "horizontal", like a sideways diamond. It was significantly smaller than the tree. The diamond shape itself was not as "sharp" (and by this I mean in focus) as the tree was. (Infact, the edges were not a straight smooth edge like you would have if you drew a diamond with a pencil.) It was a softer edge, but nevertheless, I had a strong sense of it being a diamond. I did not see a sky, however, it almost seemed like the diamond may have been formed by the break in the branches of the trees. The view of the outside from the window was full coverage. The whole window had an image. On the left side, there were more trees and it seemed off center to the left was perhaps a well-beaten dirt path. The other trees/path seemed out of focus (almost like taking a close-up picture of something and everything else in the background is out of focus. My thoughts were that part of the images was just a "filler" and insignificant.)

When I woke up:

I had an overwhelming feeling that this was about Matt. Although Matt himself was never in my dream, this pertained to him, is what I felt. And as much as I tried to discount the dream, it weighed heavy on my heart, so much so, that I risked being made fun of by my son, and told him about the dream. I know absolutely nothing of Mammoth Lakes. But, we googled Mammoth Lakes and Blue Diamond and the search returned a map that started at Shady Rest Campground and showed the surrounding trails. That gave me goosebumps. And what gave me goosebumps even more was when I emailed Tiffany to tell her about my dream (after she talked about they psychic) and then learned her husband also dreamed of a blue crystal/diamond. And later that night, I learned of a third dream by a former student about a blue crystal (which I will post after this one, so as not to confuse the dream).

Overall - in my dream, there were 3 significant things. The glass (so clean, crystal clear), the tree, the diamond. All else seemed to me to be irrelevant (but I detailed it here as best I could incase something picks up on something that may be important). From beginning to end, that was my dream and it couldn't have lasted more than a few moments, but in my dream it did feel as though I was looking out the window for a very long time.

The top off moment is... the irony of that the picture that was posted of the found of the eyeglasses. It had all 3 elements of what stood out in my dream... the glass (although glasses were scratched and dirty, completely opposite of my dream), the trees, the blue diamond.

I don't know what this means if it means anything at all...I have tried to reason with myself and make sense of it. But, I just can't.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:05am PT
RM217, interesting dream! If possible, I'd like to also hear about the one the student had.

OutdoorGal, I'm not familiar with the area, but according to Wikipedia, a couloir is "is a narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain." And a crag is a small peak or outcropping. I think that Blue Couloir is next to Blue Crag (someone has posted pictures of of Blue Crag above).

Here's someone's report of a hike to Blue Couloir in August of 2006:
http://highwire.stanford.edu/~galic/hiking/mammoth2006/crest.html
OutdoorGal

Social climber
Lehigh Valley, PA
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:16am PT
Wow, beautiful views (including Mammoth Mountain) from the couloir in that trip report. Thanks for posting your reply and that link. One sentence stood out to me from it (and this was August, albeit 2006):

"Plenty of soft snow in the midday. Ice axe and crampons are convenient on the steepest part."

RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:48am PT
Blue Square - Considered “intermediate” trails that are steeper than beginner trails yet easy enough for intermediate skiers to ski on, Blue Square trails aren't extremely steep. They are popular trails at most resorts because they provide skiing that’s fun but not scary. Generally groomed, some Blue Square trails have easy moguls or extremely easy glades.

Black Diamond - Difficult trails that are for advanced skiers. Black Diamond trails can be steep, narrow, or ungroomed. Other challenges, such as icy conditions, may cause a trail to be marked as a Black Diamond. Most glades and mogul trails are Black Diamonds.

Don't want to discount anyone or anything...but RE: Blue Square/ Black Diamond, imho, this was not the feeling that I felt at all. To me, it seems contradictory and confusing. Now, in high school, I was EASILY confused by my math teacher, but I feel if these dreams mean anything at all, it wouldn't be a harder puzzle than it would have to be to figure out. (Unless Matt has a great big sense of humor)... And this relates to ski trails, not hiking trails, so I have to wonder if it would be that confusing? I didn't get the feeling in my dream that this was a play on words. I almost feel that while the diamond/crystal part is significant somehow, that the blue is even moreso important. The color is what popped out and made me notice. And overall, from everything I have seen/heard/read, it seems like intermediate to advanced trails may describe most mountain areas in that area. (Depending on routes taken).

The rail/fencing was really interesting. I saw it alongside a trail, and it was built really interestingly. It was a rugged fence that appeared to be made of oak or some other wood. It wasn't painted, and wasn't very tall. It had been there for awhile, as in this wasn't a newly built rail. It was older, worn, and very natural. No paint whatsoever.

This is interesting... Take a look at this video. I wanted to get a clearer understanding of how Mammoth Lakes looked... trees, sky, etc. So, I have been googling images and such. I came across this video and when I read this about the fence, I thought of this video. At 2:26 of this video, there is a trail lined on either side by what looks like unpainted fallen trees - they appear to not have any bark on them at all.

And as I looked at the video again, something caught my eye. If you stop at 11 seconds you will see a forested area. Almost directly in the middle is a "blue" area. As the video zooms in, it annotates "Lake Mary." This is similar to my "window" and how the blue appeared to be in my dream. That's what I meant when I said it looked like the blue could have been formed from the sky by a break in the tree branches. In my dream, the image was full...there was no "sky" - just blue peeking through. The rest of the space was filled with trees/branches/leaves. And my blue diamond was a little higher, closer to the top of the trees. Not sure if that matters.

I don't remember any talk about "Duck Pass," in any of the posts here, but it does appear that there are areas close by where Matt would have been able to use crampons/boots. I don't know how accessible those areas are via the place where the video was taken. And I don't know where Duck Pass is in relation to Shady Rest. Seems like "Mammoth Mountain" is quite a distance away by an annotation that was inserted into the video.

Anyway: here is video...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-54HvLOBnM

(sorry these posts are so long)
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:52am PT
RM217, interesting dream! If possible, I'd like to also hear about the one the student had.


Was going to post it earlier, but I was hoping that the student would post, however, not able to get hold of him.

But, his dream was this:

He saw Matt slide down side of mountain on rocks (rocks that would allow one to slide) on his backside, feet first. He came to rest at the bottom of the hill and behind Matt was a large rock or boulder that was made of some sort of blue crystal.

I do not know the details and if there might be anything else. I will see if there is a way that I can reach him and he can post with details (if there is any other details).

RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:59am PT
He'd briefly mentioned "Glass Greek", however I didn't get a clear view on why it was of importance. For now, I'll stick with the information about the southern location, and if all else fails, I'll see if he can show me anything about the Inyo area.


Also in the youtube video, there is footage of a creek... very clear as in transparent. But, I would imagine most creeks look like that out there???
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:28am PT
blue crystal
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Outdoor Gal, thanks for the further reflections and the brief report on the student's dream.

Yes, the fencing could be logs next to a trail. Some people on FB did mention Duck Pass and the Duck Pass Trail -- I think it's in the same general area and goes up near Blue Crag.

I had thought the fencing was more near a drop-off. Maybe we can get more details about the fencing in the dream/vision. (It wasn't clear to me whether that was from the clairvoyant or Tiffany herself.)

Donna from Mammoth posted on FB re some other alternative:

do not know what fence it could refer to but the town bike trail to the Lake Basin has fence along the steepest area. Mammoth also has some historical mining areas with old fencing and buildings? If Matt hiked to the Lake Basin he could have gone by either area.

I need to do some other things soon, but will check back later.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
Aug 29, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Hey zBrown don't forget to come bak and read this one.


tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
this what i saw but much larger. after searching the web all day its called a lemurian crystal.
266mm-Tibetan-Clear-Lemurian-Seed-Quartz-Crystal-Points-Specimen.jpg
266mm-Tibetan-Clear-Lemurian-Seed-Quartz-Crystal-Points-Specimen.jpg
Credit: tdg119
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 29, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Hi guys!

I'm the medium who's original testimonial is found in the OP. I decided to join to answer any questions you guys might have, as I've been in contact with various intuitive people about this case for the past few days and have gotten quite a few responses. I've established a document compiling quite a few experiences/visions, however it's a work in progress.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xOg0HrKwpXQ34MEyKYFjj8c4H8KzzB3mVojEqJ27RJw/edit

After revising my original documentation of the Blue Diamond, I do not feel I found its exclusive meaning. Though I do feel it may have referenced to the terrain, I have to agree with the other individual who posted on this thread that there is indeed much more to it. It very well may have various meanings, and the document I've created will hopefully explore various possibilities.

Last night I had a dream of a very volcanic looking area -- the rock was darker and solid, and again, there were few trees. The portion I saw wasn't particularly rigid, however I know it had rigid parts. May have been a dome or an area where domes may be -- I've never been to Mammoth, so I have no idea of the terrain or if any area like I saw in my vision could even exist.

I'm trying to maintain a logical, intuitive approach to these visions and their compilation. A lot of people have had some profound dreams and experiences, and I don't want to discount anyone, as the possibilities are endless. I also want to find common denominators and note similarities in the visions for whatever they're worth.

Great suggestions on this thread thus far.
T

tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
At least from a couple of dreams the words "large crystal rock" stand out--with emphasis on *large* (Crystal crag again?...) The size of that "crystal" might be an important part of its meaning--as it was unusually large. And the posted photo does look like an icicle...there an image of June-time icicles in Ritter area online--they were hanging off vegetation branches above a creek, right above a little waterfall (formed from waterfall splashes).
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
And here's a list of gemnstones/minerals that one can search for in Mammoth area and the locations:

http://www.cityconcierge.com/mammoth-lakes/activities/rock-hounding.asp

I know that epidote forms long crystals but they're black, not sure about other stones.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Tyler, thanks for joining us and for your insights. I appreciate your organized approach and Google doc.

Do you remember any more about the fence, such as how tall it was, whether it consisted of posts joined by two lines of railings, or whether it was constructed in some other way?

Do you have any sense of how big the dome or dome-like mountain was?

When Matt showed you the map of Mammoth Crest, were the two prominent mountains on it? Or did you see him standing on the trail with the railing, looking at the mountains? Did you get a good look at the mountains, so you could see what they looked like?

I realize that the dream may have been fleeting and that it may not be possible to answer these questions...
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
So...this afternoon I did some thinking...or should I say "unthinking." When I finally stopped trying to make sense of it was when it actually started making sense. And without explaining why (very long story) - the dream fit my way of thinking. And my dream began to make sense to me.

The tree - I believe has no significant value itself. The needles, the leaves, the detail. I don't believe that is important. It served as a distraction. The tree itself is an obstruction of view. What I am not sure of if it is a physical or emotional obstruction. My feeling is though, that it is both. Emotions can and will obstruct, distort, distract, making it hard to see anything else. Or the obstruction can represent that the view of Matt is physically obstructed.

The window/glass - it was crystal clear. The cleanest glass I have ever seen in my life. Trying to decifer this in the beginning, I was thinking binoculars, camera, something with a lens of some sort. It seemed to make sense especially with the out of focus areas of the window. But, I now attribute the out of focus areas on the obstruction of view. With my own words earlier, I wrote how when you take a close up shot, everything in the background is out of focus. That's what happened. I was so focused on the tree as significant, which took my focus off the surrounding areas where the real clues might have been. So, the glass represents to me that something is being missed and it shouldn't be because it should be quite clear. From everything I have read and learned so far, Matt is methodical, he is careful, he's a planner, yet he has the ability to "change course" if he needed to. He is able to spot danger and while he may love the thrill of hiking and climbing, he isn't a thrill seeker, living on the edge, so to speak. He has probably challenged himself and there was probably a time or two (hundred) that he said "whew." But, he learned and exhibited self-control. He respected nature. And he understood nature. He was aware of what equipment to use and what he may not have needed. Through the years, he has gained a vast amount of knowledge about well-being in the wilderness (food, water, etc). He is a quiet person and a private person and it seems he lives a simple life, and is somewhat a creature of habit, therefore predictable. To know Matt is to understand Matt. And I feel there are a select few that know Matt on that deep-connecting level, but I believe they might hold the key.

The glasses that were found are kind of a confirmation about the "crystal clear" thing for me. The glasses shouted "CAN'T YOU SEE?" But, we couldn't see, we can't see. The glasses were dirty and scratched...an obstruction.

Which brings me to the last and maybe most important object. The blue diamond. In the other dreams, the "blue thing" is called a crystal. I suppose a diamond is a crystal in a way. Although I saw the diamond more as a shape, not a ring I see it being significant as a "treasure." A treasure meaning something important (not necessarily as in monetary value). Whether it's a diamond or crystal (and either could be very relevant) it is something that I feel shouldn't be ignored. In Ron's dream, Matt was trying to give it to Ron, in the student's dream, it was behind Matt and in mine, it was almost hidden (by the obstruction). I will have to do some more "unthinking" about the "treasure." Both the gem and the color blue I think are significant. The shapes are all different. One in a wand. One in a diamond. One in a circle (rock/boulder).

(sorry again for long post)
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
"Do you remember any more about the fence, such as how tall it was, whether it consisted of posts joined by two lines of railings, or whether it was constructed in some other way?"

The fence wasn't very tall at all. I'd say maybe four feet off the ground. (Just a general estimate). I saw two different types of fences. On one trail, it appeared as though there was a "fencing" that consisted of oak posts connected with wooden planks that went horizontally. I'll consult Google to try and find a visual example.

On the more profound vision, the fence consisted only of upward planks connected by a fine barbed wire. These fences were less intricate and simpler.

Do you have any sense of how big the dome or dome-like mountain was?


I've never been to Mammoth myself, so I have no idea what the norm would be, but the Dome was large enough to look like the side of a mountain. What's odd is that it wasn't very hard to climb -- it just had a smoother surface than a traditional mountain. I only saw the bottom portion of the dome/mountain, but I know had he kept going up, it would have been rugged and much steeper (not smooth like where I saw him as being).

Edit: He was towards the bottom of wherever he would have started venturing. There WAS snow/ice towards the top of this mountain.


When Matt showed you the map of Mammoth Crest, were the two prominent mountains on it? Or did you see him standing on the trail with the railing, looking at the mountains? Did you get a good look at the mountains, so you could see what they looked like?

He had mentioned two mountains in the Mountain Crest area. Whether that was just a reference to Mountains he had seen in prior trips, I don't know. There wasn't a direct correlation to his whereabouts, but it was incredibly notable. I got a good look at them. There didn't seem to be much if any snow where he was standing, so it makes me think he'd be elsewhere.

Possibly the two mountains he was looking at?
Possibly the two mountains he was looking at?
Credit: tylerhenry

I don't know the area, and want the professional opinion of well-experienced hikers to come before any form of psychic information. Though it certainly can be useful, the people who know the area certainly have an upper hand.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
RM, in my native culture the traditional meaning of a tree in a dream like this one is very important, this is from old book of interpretation of dreams:
"Tree in a dream means (symbolizes) a "person", their life, fate, their health, soul". "Strange, unusual-looking tree is a tree of destiny/fate of a person and one must pay attention to details of that tree"
Seeing a green blooming tree is good, dry--not so, etc. Needles (conifer) isn't a good thing to see, unless you see entire pine.
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Tioga - I absolutely 1000% appreciate your insight on this. Sometimes the outside looking in provides more clarity than the inside looking out. I, too, did hear that before about the tree and I don't want to count that completely out either. What I initially thought was tree of life. And if you google that for images - there is a wide array of different kind of trees - like mine seemed to be. My brain was so wrapped up in trying to decifer this dream and I just told myself it was time to let it go for a while. I was starting to second guess everything...thinking I was reading in to it too much, or maybe not enough. I think I cleared my head and diverted my attention to something else completely and that's when it came to me...I was reminded of something I had gone through many years ago (my long story) and more than anything I felt it was an obstruction. Maybe the tree does still represent life (or at least hope of life - I am hopelessly optomistic, have always been). I suppose the "obstruction" could have come in any form (house, mountain, bright sun), so the fact that it was a tree could hold some value.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
I quoted these from one of the old "dream books" which go hundreds years back (but most likely thousands and based on older culture)...I've seen a relative of mine who died visit me in a form of a tree--in an intense dream I've seen many years ago--I knew/felt it was my family member, and it was a blooming tree, which gave me peace. Seen another intense tree dream that came true (about own fate), long time ago. The tree usually means your own fate/health unless you feel in a dream it's about another person. This tree could mean an obstruction at the same time.. double meaning. These old books often get the meaning right as soon as not go into fine detail, as these are ancient archetypes...Would be interesting if someone who knows Native American dream interpretation could try to read these dreams, I'm not familiar with it.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Tyler, thanks for your detailed reply! And hi! I wondered whether you were the same Tyler who's over on the Facebook page.

If you get the chance, I have a few more questions.

-You mention that the simpler fence was in the more profound vision. Which was the more profound vision? Also, were the upright planks in the simpler fence right next to each other (more like slats), or were they fence posts joined by wires?

-You say Matt was near the smooth lower sides of a domed mountain with snow/ice on top. Did you have a sense of what color the side of that mountain was? (I think in the second vision you said it was dark.) Did you have a sense of what it was made of -- for instance, do you have a sense of whether it was loose dirt, or something more pebbly, or smooth rock?

Thanks!

LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Aug 29, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
RM217, I like your "unthinking" and appreciate your discussion with Tioga.

I'm mostly on this thread because I hope that these dreams and intuitions can help find Matt. I'm not usually into spiritual stuff, at least not in public. But though I and we can think of practical meanings for the window and the tree, I nearly cried when I read your post. So I'm going to stop being practical for a moment and tell you what I thought of when I read your "unthinking" post. (I'm not pushing any point of view, just reporting my thoughts.)

First, the glass window. In Buddhism, the clearest glass is awareness, the unchanging frame around everything we experience. Supposedly to experience the awareness -- to feel more the awareness rather than its changing contents -- can bring peace and joy. Perhaps in a moment of extremity, one feels this pure awareness.

Second, the crystal. Matt was trying to give Ron a big crystal. You point out that a crystal or a diamond is a treasure -- not necessarily monetary. What was Matt's biggest treasure? His life. Simple, clear, and complete, like a crystal. Maybe he wants to give that to his friends and family.

But what gets in the way? Matt is too far away and can't reach them. They don't know what happened to him or where he is. Maybe that's why this bugs us so much and we want to find him.
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
Tyler, thanks for your detailed reply! And hi! I wondered whether you were the same Tyler who's over on the Facebook page.

That's me! :)


-You mention that the simpler fence was in the more profound vision.
The simpler fence (wired one) came through right before I had the vision of Matt on the side of that mountain. It may imply that the trail he used to get there had this type of fencing.

Which was the more profound vision? Also, were the upright planks in the simpler fence right next to each other (more like slats), or were they fence posts joined by wires?

The more profound vision was the one in which Matt was on the side of the mountain -- the one where he was in the Mountain Crest area seemed happier and more trivial -- he was simply looking out into the horizon.

They were most definitely fence posts that were joined by wires -- the planks themselves were feet from another, connected by barbed wire of some sort.

-You say Matt was near the smooth lower sides of a domed mountain with snow/ice on top. Did you have a sense of what color the side of that mountain was? (I think in the second vision you said it was dark.)

It was indeed dark. Not black, but a darker grey. The rigid part of the mountain reminded me a lot of the consistency of rough tourmaline (pictured below).

Similar texture, not color.
Similar texture, not color.
Credit: tylerhenry


Did you have a sense of what it was made of -- for instance, do you have a sense of whether it was loose dirt, or something more pebbly, or smooth rock?

At the bottom of the mountain, there was definitely large gravel. That's the best way to put it -- large amounts of natural rock that would have been tough on the ankles without proper shoes. There were pretty big clumps of rocks measuring anywhere from four to six inches. The slope of the mountain had a portion that was a bit smoother and easier to access, and then the upper region where I feel he may have gone was far more rugged and vertical.

tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
LAhiker, I agree about the clear glass being awareness...also, looking through the window means insight into "another space","outside dimension, world", etc. But the glass is also an obstacle, as what's behind the glass is unreachable, miles and time separating the dreamer from what they see.

The dream book I mentioned says that "seeing a tree through the window" in a dream means: "seeing the world through the eyes of another person"--I haven't noticed this part right away, only when I moved onto "window" meaning.
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
Also, I just want to add this -- in the dream of Matt, he made it very clear that he felt he was NOT equipped to do a huge peak, and that he would have had a partner if he intended to do something drastic. Even in the area that I saw in the visions, it wouldn't have been incredibly difficult to get where he went. It's not like he got to the top of a peak or anything like that, it appears as though something happened while he was working on either the lower portion of a mountain, trail etc. He said he had done it countless times (referring to the difficulty of the area he was in) and felt it wasn't of any concern because it wasn't dangerous.

I personally wouldn't be looking high, I'd be looking lower. The bottom and mid-section of smaller mountains as opposed to high peaks. He simply made it clear that he would have had a partner if he intended to do a trail or peak of higher difficulty.

This was something at least intermediate in difficulty that wouldn't have been incredibly hard for him -- a climb or movement that would have been relatively easy that very well may have just gone wrong.
Cas0673

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Mammoth_Mountain.jpg


I just came across this pic. It has some fencing with posts and wire.
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Mammoth_Mountain.jpg


I just came across this pic. It has some fencing with posts and wire.

This is exactly the type of fencing I was seeing in the vision. Maybe someone familiar with the area can clue us in on how prominent that type of fencing is? (If it's not common, maybe give us an idea of what trails it may be near?)

I also want to add that in the vision of Matt on the side of the mountain area, I didn't see a helmet in sight. I certainly saw what looked like a backpack (I was looking at him from the side, so it was rather hidden), but no helmet was apparent (unless it was in his bag -- but even though it was a relatively manageable area where he started off at, it still seems like he'd of worn a helmet to protect from falling rocks had he intended to climb much higher up).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
I really appreciate everyone who in some way are all connected to Matt and had dreams, even psychics and what they are experienced, have come forward and shared the detail. Would like to know the students dream in detail too. Hopefully that can happen.

I appreciate no-one has ridiculed all this disclosure either, and has given respect. Thank you.

I will reveal just a little how important dreams are, and how they are at times from the divine.

I make no apologies about my faith, Messianic Judaism. I know HaShem is real and there is another world. People on ST for the most part know this about me and I certainly get ribbed for it. Big time. I have to wear a Teflon armored suit and asbestos underwear to survive here.

However, HaShem does communicate to us through dreams, whether you're a believer or not. Read the whole story of Joseph in the Bible. Many who had dreams would come to Joseph and he would tell them what they meant. He had this gift directly from G-d, and it saved Egypt and Israel from famine. He saved many lives. HaShem gave him dreams and he had the gift of dream interpretation.

Joseph the Dreamer:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+37&version=NCV

Dreams can be from G-d. The fact that many different people are experiencing similar things in their dreams concerning Matt is very important, and one would have to admit its beyond our ability to understand unless you accept that there is more beyond this physical life.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-dream-interpretation.html


A personal experience in my life to show you the power of dreams:

I have had dreams my life long (like everyone) but one in particular has changed my life and woke me up with absolute vivid memory of it. I had a very detailed dream that went on for a long-time. In the dream my wife was driving our Syncro Vanagon, and I was asleep in the passenger seat but fully aware of what was happening around me. Like I had a third person movie view of everything. We were headed down a slight grade on a coastal highway like Hwy 1 in California. We were going South. There was a strong guard rail on the right along the vertical cliffs that were 1000s of feet high, and then a wide coastal plain to the ocean. The highway was turning to the left up ahead. Comatose and with no emotion my wife drove right through the guard-rail rather than turn left to follow the road and we were instantly in free-fall projectile motion 1000s of feet above the coastal plain heading toward the ocean. I immediately awoke and was pissed, sad, and crying all at the same time. I asked her what has she done? She was still comatose looking straight ahead but with tears starting to run down her cheek. To make a long story short, the free-fall continued for a long time. Lots of detail. Eventually we came to a bumpy yet soft landing on the beach. The vehicle started to roll along into the shallow surf and then stopped. I quickly got out, ran around and got my wife and carried her in my arms to the dry beach and set her down. She was crying. I looked back and the vehicle was starting to sink into the beach mud nose first. I ran back got a rope from the vehicle tied it onto the back bumper and pulled the vehicle down and dragged it back up to the dry beach safe. I went back and sat a short distance from my wife and started to cry, and thanked G-d that we were Ok, and that we didn't die. And then someone on the beach who saw us said that was the longest free-fall they had ever witnessed. I answered back, I don't want to ever experience that again.

I told my wife and my kids my dream in fine detail the very next morning. They all listened intently. I told them wow, not sure what that means, but it was vivid.

One week later my wife left me. I had no clue that was going to happen. Things seemed to be going well. The moment she left me and the shock set-in the dream came rushing back and I knew exactly what it meant. HaShem warned me but I was asleep. I couldn't understand what it meant when he told me at the very moment. I wasn't meant to. The dream at that moment was meant for my wife, not me. It was so vivid I couldn't help myself, I had to tell her and my children. She had been secretly preparing to leave me for a month before she left. HaShem was telling her that he knew what she was going to do before she did it. And he also let me warn the children, yet they didn't know what it meant either. Well, now I know what every little detail in that dream means today. I've gone through it time and time again, and with a Christian marriage counselor. We know what it means. And in the end I let her go. That is gonna happen soon through divorce court, over 2 years later.


Back to dreams regarding Matt ...

The dreams regarding Matthew and the Blue crystal, blue diamond, trees, Matt trying to give the long blue crystal to Ron, arrowheads, wooden fences, looking through someone else's eyes through a very clear window etc. etc. all tell a very accurate story that HaShem through Matt is trying to get you to pay attention to. The fact that the blue crystal is long is probably him telling you that there is something about the blue crystal that is important. He's trying to emphasize that point, that blue crystal, that blue diamond. And he's having a hard time giving it too you perhaps because you don't want to accept what it might mean.

The fact that all of you including the psychic came forward and shared a little about your dreams and experiences before the pictures of the glasses were ever revealed is very, very important. Similar to how I revealed my dream to my wife before she left me.

Think on that. The answer is before you.


Edit:

RM217 your dream with 9 window pains then down to one. Perhaps means many ideas but then only one is true.

I have mentioned this in another thread, July 16th, 2013, was the last night of the 9th of Av, 2013. In Judaism, the 9th of Av, is like Friday the 13th. Not good. Too much bad history has occurred on this date. It's as though extreme evil is released on this date, or always takes advantage on this date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisha_B'Av

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/946703/jewish/What-happened-on-the-Ninth-of-Av.htm

tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
From a blog post about Crystal Crag, as it mentions the reason why it was named so (even though it's been mentioned it's not the likely climbing choice):

"Crystal Crag is a little fin above Lake Mary, near Mammoth Lakes, named for a vein of quartz crystals near the top of its north end"
"I was close enough to reach the crystal pitch, though, which was short, but as cool-looking as promised. I stopped to take a few pictures of the huge quartz blocks, but it was hard to get a good shot in the shade."
"From the top of the crystals, a long, exposed 4th class traverse led to the summit."

http://drdirtbag.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/crystal-crag-north-arete-ii-5-6/



RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
Second, the crystal. Matt was trying to give Ron a big crystal. You point out that a crystal or a diamond is a treasure -- not necessarily monetary. What was Matt's biggest treasure? His life. Simple, clear, and complete, like a crystal. Maybe he wants to give that to his friends and family.

LAhiker - Yes, this is EXACTLY what I was thinking. The diamond/crystal was what Matt saw as a treasure. Not us. And it makes perfect sense. His life is his biggest treasure. Yes. Agree with this 100%.

First, the glass window. In Buddhism, the clearest glass is awareness, the unchanging frame around everything we experience. Supposedly to experience the awareness -- to feel more the awareness rather than its changing contents -- can bring peace and joy. Perhaps in a moment of extremity, one feels this pure awareness.

This makes sense also. The awareness kind of walks hand in hand with clarity.

But the glass is also an obstacle, as what's behind the glass is unreachable, miles and time separating the dreamer from what they see.

Tioga - Absolutely true. This is what I felt. I wanted to reach out and touch the tree, but the window was the barrier. And in my dream, there was no way to open the window.


The dream book I mentioned says that "seeing a tree through the window" in a dream means: "seeing the world through the eyes of another person"--I haven't noticed this part right away, only when I moved onto "window" meaning.

Very interesting! So, am I seeing things through what I believe to be Matt's eyes? Then what I see as the obstruction, maybe it was Matt's obstruction. I understand the meaning of the tree in a dream and even agree with it, because I thought that initially - but I still can't count out the obstruction - (or maybe it is the glass as an obstruction?) I definetely feel the obstruction is important. Mostly because I didn't seek that answer...it wasn't until I let it go that it came to me.


And - LAhiker - I too hope this leads to the finding of Matt. I am by no means a psychic. I don't even read my horoscope... but I have had some strange dreams in the past that have come to pass. In those dreams, something specific took place and then later happened. There was nothing to try to decifer, like in this one.
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
I'm the medium who's original testimonial is found in the OP.

Hi Tyler...nice to see you jump in and give your thoughts. What is the OP?
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
Hi Tyler...nice to see you jump in and give your thoughts. What is the OP?


Hi there! The OP = Original Post. The testimonial at the beginning of this thread was sent by me in an email. I mentioned in one of my first posts with this account that I agreed with your interpretation about the Blue Diamond (even though I was the one who felt it was a play on words) -- as I think it very well may have many meanings, and I really appreciate your contribution to the thread -- we have some great ideas flowing and hopefully we can get some answers. Hope you're having a great day. :)

T

From a blog post about Crystal Crag, as it mentions the reason why it was named so (even though it's been mentioned it's not the likely climbing choice):

"Crystal Crag is a little fin above Lake Mary, near Mammoth Lakes, named for a vein of quartz crystals near the top of its north end"
"I was close enough to reach the crystal pitch, though, which was short, but as cool-looking as promised. I stopped to take a few pictures of the huge quartz blocks, but it was hard to get a good shot in the shade."
"From the top of the crystals, a long, exposed 4th class traverse led to the summit."

I really like this tioga. It wouldn't surprise me if the blue diamond/crystal reference might be describing a location.
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
The fact that all of you including the psychic came forward and shared a little about your dreams and experiences before the pictures of the glasses were ever revealed is very, very important. Similar to how I revealed my dream to my wife before she left me.

First, I am so sorry about your wife leaving you...And I hope you have found peace in it all. I believe when one door closes, another opens, but you have to have the courage to walk through.


I agree... the fact that the dreams/visions came out PRIOR to the glasses being found was very important. Credibility would have been out the window (no pun intended). I can't help but think that people have to think this is borderline insanity. I am definitely out of my comfort zone here. But, I feel it was important. In my entire life I have rarely shared my dreams with anyone...and especially not the "strange" ones. And I even shared this one with my son. It was too overwhelming to hold on to alone. I thought he would finally call the rubber wagon for me, but he didn't. He even told me several times to email the family, but I just couldn't bring myself to. I didn't know how it would be taken. My son told me that I would regret it if it was found out that something in the dream may have mattered. He didn't have to tell me that - I did already know that. Well, when the family consulted a psychic, I thought that was my cue... and I sent a PM to Tiffany. And that is when I learned about Ron's dream. "Wow" was all I could say. This was just a few hours before the glasses were found. And right around the time my son got home that night, the glasses were found. And when he got home he said "you are not going to believe this..." and proceeded to tell me the story of the 3rd blue crystal dream. My son did not initiate this conversation. He didn't say "my mom had this dream..." It was the other boy (who my son hardly knew) that came up and started talking about "Mr. Greene." And then that boy revealed the dream. I feel that we all stayed quiet about it for long enough and it was meant to come out - despite what the nay sayers said. I suppose I would rather be mocked and made fun of and be found "wrong" then to hold in something of potential importance and find out I was "right."

I prefer to view "coincidence" (especially of this magnitude) as Divine Intervention...

I have to believe that this will lead somewhere...
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
The thread had been started by Matt's sister, I believe.

RM, yes, I agree on what you and LAHiker said about "spiritual" meaning of the crystal--something of highest (and non-material, "pure") value he tried to pass to his family/friends. Even if you look at Matt's photo that is on most search info sites, his eyes look blue and very clear, pure like a "crystal" sort of (where I'm from, they say: "eyes is a mirror reflecting the soul")... At the same time, it can have double meaning and be a symbol of location where he potentially had an accident or something he seen at the time of accident. It really strikes as odd the large size and different shapes of a crystal in these dreams people had seen, this just "catches". As to "seeing the world through person's eyes"...I guess yes, even though it may mean not literally "seeing", but "experiencing" as well. The obstacle (obstruction) you mentioned--yes, I think a tree and glass both can be it, as in a dream meanings are fluid...but if you simply felt there was one, this is enough. One thing can have more than one meaning in dream (just like in real life). Like yourself, I had experienced some dreams of this kind in the past, that came true, so I know what this experience is like--there's always more than meets the eye.
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
Hi there! The OP = Original Post. The testimonial at the beginning of this thread was sent by me in an email. I mentioned in one of my first posts with this account that I agreed with your interpretation about the Blue Diamond (even though I was the one who felt it was a play on words) -- as I think it very well may have many meanings, and I really appreciate your contribution to the thread -- we have some great ideas flowing and hopefully we can get some answers. Hope you're having a great day. :)

Tyler - thanks for clarifying OP. I knew that when you would answer, I would probably say "DUH" and I did. (LOL).

And...somehow I missed your first post and just went back to find/read it. I wasn't feeling the play on words. Ironically, I do like to challenge myself with mind-game type games/puzzles, something like a play of words, but just feel like it didn't apply to what I was feeling about my particular dream. It seemed broad and confusing. But, like I said, I don't want to discount anything or anybody. It's a big puzzle and maybe if we can get all the pieces put together, we will see that big picture.

The common denominator here seems to me to be the blue. I also read that somewhere else, something about a blue sheet, almost child-like. So, I feel like the blue is important. Also important is the crystal/diamond, which translate (to me) to be a treasure of some sort, something to be cherished. So, not so sure if the shape or whether it is crystal or diamond is important. My "diamond" was small (like it could have been held in the palm of a hand. Ron's was much larger - a couple of feet long. And although I don't know the size, the other boy said it was a large rock/boulder (behind Matt), so it would have had to have been substantially larger for it to be viewable if it was behind him.

And - one more thing on the play of words...like I said I don't feel like it plays a role with the "diamonds" but that doesn't mean it is not important. A message is trying to be conveyed. Words are important when trying to relay a message, but in this case, there can be no words, so in a sense we do have to figure out what it is that is trying to be said. So, the words are important.


tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
And to those who call this thread 'distasteful'--have you, personally, been subject of search, rescue, while severely injured, with injuries incompatible with life, etc? I've been, and I don't find this thread distasteful. Be careful with accusations. You may find out one day you don't control a yota of your daily life, with whatever "rational" choices, but something else, above us, does.

Or, they perhaps can pick up a John Muir's book...self-proclaimed skeptic of anything "supernatural", Muir had a vision, while on Half-Dome, which came true--he details this in his writings...mountains seems to be conductive of some things, as even Muir came to see.
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
"Tyler - thanks for clarifying OP. I knew that when you would answer, I would probably say "DUH" and I did. (LOL).

Totally understandable, it's a lot to skim through!

And...somehow I missed your first post and just went back to find/read it. I wasn't feeling the play on words. Ironically, I do like to challenge myself with mind-game type games/puzzles, something like a play of words, but just feel like it didn't apply to what I was feeling about my particular dream. It seemed broad and confusing. But, like I said, I don't want to discount anything or anybody. It's a big puzzle and maybe if we can get all the pieces put together, we will see that big picture.


Certainly, different symbols have different meanings to different people, and hopefully we can get a step closer to figuring this out.

The common denominator here seems to me to be the blue.

I agree completely. A few minutes ago, an intuitive friend of mine messaged me and said she kept seeing a "blue tarp". Blue seems to be a common symbol. Now whether or not it's important -- I don't know, however its prevalence is certainly notable.


And - one more thing on the play of words...like I said I don't feel like it plays a role with the "diamonds" but that doesn't mean it is not important. A message is trying to be conveyed. Words are important when trying to relay a message, but in this case, there can be no words, so in a sense we do have to figure out what it is that is trying to be said. So, the words are important.


I totally agree! It seems like most people are either seeing a blue diamond, a blue crystal, or a blue, diamond-shaped crystal. My original interest in the blue diamond aspect (in particular) came from this post on the FB page:

Credit: tylerhenry

Hoping people (myself included) begin seeing more information that can hopefully bring light to the situation. We have some decent leads -- just a matter of executing them and getting people to look (resources are limited).

RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
At the same time, it can have double meaning and be a symbol of location where he potentially had an accident or something he seen at the time of accident.

I do agree with this. It can absolutely be a location. I think the blue is important and somehow goes together with the 'treasure.' Because a "blue treasure" wouldn't make sense. And the fact that they are all represented in different sizes and shapes somewhat differentiates them with each other, yet they remain the one constant. If he treasured his life, or love for his family, or both, one way or another, I believe that he would want them to know what happened. And in order to know the what they would have to know the where.

I just googled this about dreaming of the color blue: Dreaming of Blue


Blue tends to mean truth, heaven, tranquility, peace, intuition and what the dreamer associates with sky or ocean- blue could even signify the desire for a vacation! Blue tends to be a very spiritual color for most dreamers. The color can represent the collective conscious (see information on Carl Jung) or our subconscious. Blue is often associated with boys and could represent masculinity for the dreamer.

Different shades of blue can have very different meanings. Navy blue often means conformity and a lack of individualism since this color is typically associated with uniforms. Dark or washed out blue tends to indicate depression and feelings of sadness.

Blue may also be associated with the fifth, throat chakra. This chakra is associated with communication, self-expression, thinking and planning.


It seems to make sense, but I don't see the direction or where this could lead us?
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
The guesses with blue I've seen so far had been: "Blue Colour", "Blue diamond (skiing) trails", blue "Crystal Lake", blue square trails, and blue (black diamond brand) helmet, which he didn't have with him--there probably been more.

By the way, as to "spiritual" meaning of that crystal in the dreams--some Native American tribes believed that a person has 4 souls and one, eventually, resides in quartz crystals.
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
From experience, common symbols that a soul sends to his or here living family generally holds significance to the person themselves. As in, every message Matt would be sending would be sent with the intention of saying something, or expressing a point.

In saying that, we have some great ideas as to what these dreams about the blue crystal/diamond/etc. could mean. Ultimately, those closest to Matt might be the closest to figuring out what it could mean. If he had read up on and knew about Native American religious beliefs, then it'd be understandable that he'd send that message. If he saw the movie, "The Gift" for example, that could be a reference to what he's referring to (just an example). My point is that usually, symbols (and especially ones so widely "sent out") almost always have personal meaning to either the person sending them, or the people the person is sending the symbol to.

I love some of the examples shared in this thread -- some wonderful perspectives. With that said, I'd infer that if there is any meaning behind the diamond/crystal reference, it'd be a reference to a place. Why? Because Matt had experience with the area and is probably more familiar with the names of local hiking spots as opposed to religious symbology or dream interpretation.

That said, who knows! I don't want to discount anyone whatsoever. As I have said earlier, dreams and symbols can have tons of different meanings -- all that can be relevant. It's less about who is right or wrong, and more about how we can use the information to search for Matt. That's the ultimate goal. Love the suggestions.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
People in this thread had been saying about the precious thing that was being passed as a crystal--life (soul, spirit?)--this reminded me of the Native American belief (quartz crystal = house of soul). But I too think that while it can have this meaning as an additional interpretation, it seems--from its very striking, peculiar nature, shown to 3 unrelated people--to have specific and concrete meaning about location... I mean, if a person wanted to communicate something the most important to closest people searching for them, they'd want to communicate their location, probably.
Btw, Matt had a bunch of arrowheads...perhaps was he was interested in Native American philosophies and beliefs.
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
It seems fair to say that I think we all can agree that the diamond/crystal is something that can be considered a treasure. And depending on who is interpreting it, the object - the treasure, something to be cherished, - will vary with each individual interpretation. So, while we are thinking that Matt's life or his family was the most treasured, we could very well be "over-shooting" the moment. Seems from Matt's blog post and other things he has said to people, and from his posts in the climbing log on summitpost.org, these climbs are what he held as a treasure or something to be remembered/cherished, at least in that moment. So, with that said...yes, I agree that the crystal could be a place, coupled with the blue, which is an added clue, and also perhaps with a double meaning of the "truth" (from dream interpretation). Finding this place will lead us to the truth of what happened.

So, taking this information and info we know from the other forum, (equipment taken, not taken - helmet, which he did not take seems very significant, where he had already been, the "worn-out" bus schedule which was left behind, also seems significant, the fact that he was ready to leave ML as soon as his car was ready, etc) what would be the most likely place. To me, it is possible that he hitched a ride. He had done that in the past in other places, not in ML that we know of. But, if the bus was working out for him in ML in the days before, why change that? No helmet, no epic climb, per Tiffany. Very limited gear. Boots, crampons, ice pick. My feeling is he left on foot from the campground. I don't know ML at all...so what is most likely? Would Blue Coulour, Crystal Lake be easy access on foot? And would that tie in with other clues (fence, ravine, etc)?
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
RM, I thought he was assumed to leave very early, while it was still completely dark? As his last cell ping was in the middle of the night when he presumably got up for an early start...Not a good ride hitching time, no cars and one can't see who's in upcoming vehicle...So, most likely on foot. And he probably wouldn't go back to Crystal Crag, as he already visited it on June 29, supposedly. Yes, he could have walked to Crystal Lake, it's below Crystal Crag, but it wouldn't be his final planned destination.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
I knew a ranger in Yosemite that had a story published in Guideposts magazine about a search for a lost hiker in Yosemite in the mid to late 80s. The gist of it was that the ranger (a devout christian) was assigned to work on this NPS search, and he prayed or whatever, and got a vision from God where to look etc, and the hiker was then found alive somewhere in the Illilouette
creek drainage.
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
Tioga - yes, it was assumed/speculated an early start (3am) was a possibilty, however, I do remember that Tiffany said way early on in that forum that it did not seem consistent with other times he got up and turned on his phone (or something to that effect). Very possible he did, knowing it would be his last day. But, there was also reference made to him being annoyed by noisy campers who got up early. The fact remains that him getting an early start is purely speculation. He may have, he may not have, but either way, I do believe the evidence points to him going on foot (especially if it was that early).
RM217

climber
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
I knew a ranger in Yosemite that had a story published in Guideposts magazine about a search for a lost hiker in Yosemite in the mid to late 80s. The gist of it was that the ranger (a devout christian) was assigned to work on this NPS search, and he prayed or whatever, and got a vision from God where to look etc, and the hiker was then found alive somewhere in the Illilouette
creek drainage.


A story of hope... :)
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
I can imagine about being annoyed by noisy campers and wanting to take off somewhere into wilderness asap even if it meant getting up really early... been dragging my sleeping bag into the forest and complete darkness, after being woken up, jumping from rock to rock without flashlight before, from being annoyed like this...these camps are *extremely* noisy and a night in them can be miserable for someone who likes peace out there. Especially if you're solo. Can see someone getting annoyed and deciding to leave really early. Perhaps getting up too early caused him to forget a helmet..

Blue Coulier? There's a Blue Crag above it. About 10 miles from town I think.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
And here's from trip report to Lake Ediza, that's on the map of possible destinations:
"the rocks were covered with many interesting minerals - crystals of clear quartz, brownish colored citrine, and green and blue malachite and azurite."
Azurite crystals are blue.
They mention mining also...there're probably abandoned mines in the area?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Blue Coulier?
If you look at the Blue Crag photos I posted up-thread, you see an obvious chute/ coulior on the right side in both photos. I'm guessing that's it (confirm with eastside underground).
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 29, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Here, a blogger identifies Blue Coulier on the left of the Blue Crag (same side?):
http://eastsidescott.blogspot.com/2010/02/weekend-skiing-in-mammoth.html

And here, he talks about Blue Crag Coulier (same?):
http://eastsidescott.blogspot.com/2010/01/blue-crag-area.html
RM217

climber
Aug 30, 2013 - 09:40am PT
And here's from trip report to Lake Ediza, that's on the map of possible destinations:
"the rocks were covered with many interesting minerals - crystals of clear quartz, brownish colored citrine, and green and blue malachite and azurite."


Interesting! Seems to name the colors in the dreams. (clear/brown/green/blue). Hmmmmm....
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:22am PT
I personally wouldn't be looking high, I'd be looking lower. The bottom and mid-section of smaller mountains as opposed to high peaks. He simply made it clear that he would have had a partner if he intended to do a trail or peak of higher difficulty.

I contacted a well known Medium last night and this was his response. This makes me also think looking lower will be fruitful. In my opinion as I've watched this man in action he is the real deal.

"Mathew was mauled by a large animal who dragged his body off of a pathway and into a ravine-esq area. It has been picked over by other predators. As to where I can't pinpoint it but he actually appears to have bled to death. Fortunately he appears to have gone into immediate shock after the attack followed by unconsciousness."



pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
For those of you who know the area, is there a Snake River near possible sites that Matt climbed?

Also, can anyone search abandoned mines in the areas they are in? I gather there are many. In particular any tourmaline mines?

I understand there is a biking event this wkend at Mammoth Lakes -- can signs be posted to bikers asking for help with the search for Matt?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 6, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
Not a vision, but I happened to be in Vons (Mammoth) and I thought about, and imagined him walking thru the isles dressed as in the OP - with helmet etc.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 7, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Are you seeing photos of Matt places you go? At Vons?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 7, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
No. A flyer was up in the post office for a while, but everything gets taken down (by them) once a week or something. I've been to the library in recent days - Starbucks etc, and see nothing.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 7, 2013 - 10:51pm PT
Can you copy some, download from Find Matthew Greene Facebook page? It is easily accessible.........I guess replacing posters is just part of the whole process of searching for him.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Pacarockhound and Biotch,

I think SplitPants and her husband have been putting up more flyers in and around Mammoth Lakes this weekend. It sounds like a real challenge keeping them up -- I'm sure any help with that is most welcome...
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
A direct link to a (PDF) flyer would help. I'll print/ post flyers in town, but am skiddish about going on FB very much.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 7, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
Biotch, the flyer is below, but Supertopo would only upload a .jpg version. Maybe there's a way to get a higher-resolution version.

Also, here's a link to another version, which lacks the Spanish:
http://socalcrisis.org/findmattgreene

Credit: LAhiker
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
Rock Mandala Meditation/Creation on Sept 14, around 7PM in Heritage Park as part of Art & Science Exhibit at Escondido (CA)Art Partnership Gallery. All are welcome-please bring your favorite rocks or stones, feathers, flowers, leaves or other images from nature for a visual/spatial exploration as well as a meditation for sending light and healing energy to loved ones, and lost ones. I will be bringing rocks from Lehigh Valley where Matt and I are both from, as well as Escondido, Murrieta and Hemet CA rocks.
My love to Matt and his family, friends, community on his birthday.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 8, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Took my kids up to Horseshoe lake to swim and romp today. Last pic before the battery went dead - Mammoth Crest (Blue Crag on left frame, Crystal Crag on right).
Credit: ß Î Ø T Ç H
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:35pm PT
As I was driving home from Hemet this evening I turned on NPR> It was an interview about the color blue! For ten minutes I listened to a discussion of blue, including blue is the color of the sky. (and lakes)
I had enough and changed to a country station, and the song was about the blue sky. Made me think about the dreams, etc. of blue crystals.....also, Matt grew up by the Blue Mountains of PA.

Wondering also if Allison Dubois has been contacted....
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Hey all.

Here is another bit from two mediums that know each other – does the geography they mention mean anything to anyone?? Really wish I was familiar with the area!!

“V” immediately felt that Matt had passed away and that he was yelling for John to help him. She also picked up on Matt saying that he failed and was very angry with himself. She said she felt that he was a perfectionist but made a mistake and was full of anger towards himself. “V” also said that when the smoke clears from the fires that are going on in the area Matt's location will be revealed. Whether this means cadaver dogs being able to pick up a sent or that he will just be located by chance when the fires are out I'm not sure.

“P” said that when she heard from “V” that I was looking for more information on Matt she immediately picked up the name John that she felt was a friend of Matt's and “P” also kept hearing a man yelling, "I failed! I failed! I failed!" She felt this was Matt yelling and picked up on his anger towards himself.

“P” strongly believes that Matt traveled east of his campsite and wasn't that far away when he fell. She believes there was no foul play just a simple mistake Matt made while walking across rocks that were slippery which is why he so angry with himself. He is experienced, so how could this happen to him. “P” explained that she was seeing Matt fall between some rocks and lying on his back looking up at the sky. She said he was able to see the sky through peephole type breaks in the rocks above. “P” felt he was pretty banged up from the fall but did not succumb to his injuries right away, not that he suffered just that he had time to realize what had happened and become angry. “P” said Matt was yelling for John hoping that he could somehow help him even though he knew he wasn't nearby.

The number three came up quite a bit as well. She said when she attempted to connect with him he kept holding up three fingers but “P” dismissed it as him saying he had three siblings. However, she mentioned Matt being upset because he didn't have three things with him that he really needed. She said he was upset that he didn't have his cell phone and that he wasn't sure if he dropped it or lost it when he fell. He also said something about not having his knife with him and that it was silly of him to forget it. The third thing was his ropes, she said he either was having a problem with the ropes he had at the campsite or he left them at the campsite or they weren't the right ropes??

“P” felt his anger was holding him back from crossing over after he died. He just kept repeating that he failed and this was an unacceptable way to die. “P” said that his grandmother (mother's mother) was there to comfort him and help guide him to the light to cross over and be at peace. There also was an angelic type of energy with him to help guide him.

“P” also said that Matt had an urgency about connecting with his Dad, she felt he had a medical condition related to his heart or a previous heart attack that Matt was worried he would have complications with because of all the stress of the situation.

The other connection with the number three “P” mentioned was Matt showing her three large boulders or mountain tops with the middle of the three being the taller. She said Matt was showing her that his location is between the second and the third one not far from his campsite going east.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Can this be shared with the climbers, especially the ones looking now?
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 12, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
Tiffany,

Interesting thoughts from V and P. The emotional part is plausible, but when I look at the topo map, I don't see the features P mentioned close to the campground, I'm not from the area so don't take my word for it.

Also the scale of P's vision isn't very clear -- three mountains? three big rocks? Do you know whether P has a good sense of direction? Maybe we can get Donna from Mammoth over here and she can comment...

Perhaps Matt could have taken one of those Blue Diamond Trails (that we were discussing earlier) that heads briefly east and then bends around toward the west?? Not sure why he would do so, but maybe he was on the way somewhere bigger...

I do find it interesting that several intuitives have the sense that something happened to Matt not far from his campground. In a practical sense, that strikes me as surprising, because Mammoth Lakes sounds very busy and one would think he would have been found by now. But it's certainly possible.

Pacarockhound, many of the climbers are very skeptical of this side of things, but some do check this thread periodically. Tiffany just asked some to comment. I wish the intuitives could come to something more like a consensus...


LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 12, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
Hi Tyler,

I don’t know whether you’re still checking this thread, but I had a few more questions for you about your vision. (Tiffany has added some other people’s visions.) I don't know how to integrate the different visions, but I'd like to ask a bit more about yours.

As I understood it, you had two main visions. In one, you saw Matt on a dark-colored mountainside with no trees, not very steep, but leading to steeper cliffs above. (You later said you thought there was ice and snow higher up.) As Matt reaches the steeper cliffs, he falls back and out of sight. I think that was the vision in which he mentioned the blue diamond. You said that you had the impression that near where Matt was falling, he was near a dome or a dome-like mountain. Just before this vision, you saw a fence with wooden posts connected by wires that was similar to the one in this picture; you thought it might have been on the way to the mountain where he was falling:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Mammoth_Mountain.jpg

You said that Matt made clear to you that he impressed upon you that he wasn’t equipped to do a big peak and would have had a partner if he’d intended to do something like that. Yo say he might have been doing something lower down, something relatively easy and safe, when something went wrong.

Then there was also a vision in which Matt was standing on a large trail or unpaved road, with a short fence or railing nearby, looking at two distant prominent peaks. (The fence in this vision was old, natural, unpainted, and weathered, I think made of wooden posts connected by wooden crossbars.) You said this appeared to be a happier and more trivial vision than the one in which he’s falling. But still, you said you woke from it screaming with terrible back pain.

(You also said that at one point, Matt showed you a map of the Mammoth Crest and expressed strong interest in the area. It sounded like at that point you were thinking of two areas, one down towards the Mammoth Crest and the other further north, in the direction of the Inyo National Forest.)

I had a few questions.

-Have you had any more visions, intuitions, or dreams related to Matt?

-In the vision where Matt was falling, how strong was your impression that there was a dome-shaped feature or mountain nearby? In other words, how important is “dome-shaped”? If it was a crucial element, and we posted some pictures of dome-shaped things, do you think one might ring a bell? (I know you said you didn’t see it full on.)

-You said that the mountain where he was falling was made of dark rock – sort of gravelly, near the bottom of the mountain, of big dark-gray clumps of rock around four to six inches. Can you remember whether these rocks were more shiny, sharp-edged, or crystalline, or whether they were more dull, opaque, or rounded? Or somehow both?

-Did you have any sense of where the “falling from a mountainside” vision was located, in relation to the “standing on a wide trail or unpaved road and looking at the mountains” vision? Did you feel they were in a similar place, or that they could have been widely separated?


Thanks!
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Sep 12, 2013 - 04:23pm PT
This week I was around Mammoth and did some investigating and also realized how vast an area he could be in, even close to town.

If he left between 3 and 6 am there is a high likelihood he could hitch a ride to Agnew or Reds. Drivers have to be in by 7 in order to not have to take the bus so traffic is common at this time of morning.

Talking with a friend who spent most of the summer in the back country he says the Mountain Lion scenario is very likely as that is their main hunting time. The number of Lions is way up and hunters have reported a shortage of deer. A 180 pound lion was hit on 395 recently.





Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Okay, Donna here but if anyone bites my head off for my thoughts I am over it.

Regarding East of town, close to campground http://www.mammothtrails.org/experience/12/hiking-to-sherwin-lakes/#mapTab

I should mention I sent photos of an area near there where the infamous fence leads to a trail off of Sherwin Creek rd that leads to Mammoth Rock which leads to the Lake Basin which leads to Crystal Lake, Mammoth Crest etc. etc. This would be an easy walk for Matt if he started early, wanted to check out something he was curious about. He could have explored off trail and planned on taking the afternoon free shuttle back to town. I really believe if Matt went off trail he could easily have been missed even in a high travel area.

Snow in mid July around Mammoth Crest and Crystal Crag possible though as Cragman pointed out, we had a dry winter. (Ask Matt's friends who were up there with him in early July). From what I understand there was still snow around the base of the Crag. He could have had axe etc just in case.

I understand why most of the emphasis is on Ritter/Banner but that requires really experienced boots on the ground. I also understand that a helicopter is less than desirable but I wonder if it might be time for some of the family to visit Mammoth and get some understanding, closure and peace before winter sets in? I keep trying to put myself in their shoes, I would want this chance. Peace to all~
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
Thanks for the insight Donna.

My parents want to go out but whether they will this season or not, I don't know. I want to go but yet not. Honestly I think it would tear me apart to be out there, let alone have to come home again without Matt. Only finding him will bring me any closure, and I not qualified to search myself.

I really don't know how to feel anymore; at different times I've had different gut feelings but lately I'm just numb.
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
I certainly understand Tiffany. It's hard to know for sure what one would do unless they are in that situation. I hope something happens soon to bring you closer to finding peace.

lazydays

climber
Nazareth, PA
Sep 12, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
I really don't know how to feel anymore; at different times I've had different gut feelings but lately I'm just numb.


What you are going through is overwhelming. But, your strength and perserverance is the driving force that keeps the search for Matt alive. Wherever he is, he is proud of you, proud to call you his sister. Almost seventeen years ago, I lost my son in an amusement park. He was three years old at the time. The little bugger slipped out of the ball pit and got into a tree house; I will never know how he got by me. He was gone for about ten minutes and in that ten minutes I lived and died a million times. So, I cannot even imagine how each day that passes must seem like an eternity. Living somewhere between hope and grief can make one numb. I just hope you know, what we see, what we will always remember, no matter what the outcome, is how hard you have tried, all you have done, how you've pushed forward, all your persistence, all your hope, taking on huge responsibility, coordinating, listening to ideas & taking it all in, shouldering your family's pain, the interviews, the posts, the pleas - to bring Matt home. You are a woman of great determination and strength and Matt is so very lucky to have you... I pray that your hopes and prayers will be answered. I pray for your peace. Keep on keepin' on....
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Lazydays, I am so sorry for your loss.
Your thoughts for Tiffany are wonderful.
JNCalif

Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:59pm PT
Tiffany, my heart aches for your and your family. I have two younger brothers and a younger sister and I simply cannot imagine how I would deal with it should I be faced with a similar situation. I grew up skiing at Mammoth and June and thought I knew how extensive the terrain is. Now I realize I didn't have a clue.

I believe with every ounce of my being that no matter where Matt is, he is proud of your strength and your love. May Matt be found soon so that you and your family will have the answers you need. And thank you for sharing an extraordinary man with us. Matt will never, ever be forgotten.

Sending you and your family prayers.

Julie
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Sep 13, 2013 - 01:53am PT
I was just notified to check this thread, hope everyone is doing well.

-Have you had any more visions, intuitions, or dreams related to Matt?

Unfortunately, the majority of my visions as of late haven't been much of an indicator to location. Since there have been so many people sharing their visions and experience (which is great!), I'm trying to look past trivial information/dreams that is not relevant to the exact location of Matt.

I've had two dreams of him since last posting -- one dream was a bird's eye view of a campground, and I randomly flew south.
The second was Matt and a Caucasian man with balding hair. May have just been a memory he had, or simply a meaningless dream. Either way, neither bits of information seemed definitive enough to post.

-In the vision where Matt was falling, how strong was your impression that there was a dome-shaped feature or mountain nearby? In other words, how important is “dome-shaped”? If it was a crucial element, and we posted some pictures of dome-shaped things, do you think one might ring a bell? (I know you said you didn’t see it full on.)

My impression was pretty solid about the dome, it certainly felt nearby. I wouldn't put incredible emphasis on the "dome shape", as I didn't see it directly and therefore may not be incredibly relevant, but it was what I call a "landmark", or a geographical base in an area to help determine a general location based on notable surrounding elements. I've received quite a few pictures of domes and mountains, and though a few happen to be incredibly similar in their terrain, rock color/texture, etc., nothing directly rings a bell as the dome wasn't clearly visible.

-You said that the mountain where he was falling was made of dark rock – sort of gravelly, near the bottom of the mountain, of big dark-gray clumps of rock around four to six inches. Can you remember whether these rocks were more shiny, sharp-edged, or crystalline, or whether they were more dull, opaque, or rounded? Or somehow both?


The rocks I saw would be fairly sharp, opaque, and "boring". It looked like the equivalent to what the rocks from a sidewalk being smashed (in terms of the consistency, texture, etc.) would look like. Sharp, but nothing spectacular in the color. Pretty solid through and through.

-Did you have any sense of where the “falling from a mountainside” vision was located, in relation to the “standing on a wide trail or unpaved road and looking at the mountains” vision? Did you feel they were in a similar place, or that they could have been widely separated?

I think the two visions were within decent proximity. My personal belief was that the two peaks could be a reference to some mountains near Mammoth Crest, however my vision very well may be a reference to other twin peaks, mountains, etc. Again, in compiling people's visions/dreams/etc., my goal is to establish information that can be used to locate Matt with relative ease. As I've looked in these visions, it has been difficult to find certain visible landmarks (other than the dome reference and the twin mountains) as the entire area and terrain is disorientingly similar in certain areas.

If I had to suggest something worth looking into, more than anything, I'd look at the reference to the wooden railing. It's a relatively unique feature that we might be able to look into further, specifically what trails have railing, and if so, what they look like. As far as I know, searching the Mountain Crest area hasn't been emphasized, as it's most likely too well traveled to harbor Matt. Therefore, I want to stick with my visions and not add my own personal opinion to where they may be, considering I've never been to the specific area. The twin peaks very well may be West, as many have suggested.

T

lazydays

climber
Nazareth, PA
Sep 13, 2013 - 03:56am PT
Lazydays, I am so sorry for your loss.
Your thoughts for Tiffany are wonderful.

pacarockhound - Just wanted to clarify that my son was only missing for about 10 minutes - the ten longest minutes of my life. And I will never forget that ... ever.

I did lose my sister just over three years ago (on her 45th birthday) to cancer. I can truly relate to the pain in loss of a sibling and the emotions, including helplessness that comes with it. The not knowing...I just couldn't imagine.

My heart aches for Matt's family and friends.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
Group mandala creation with rocks, twigs, flower blossoms, etc. for Fi...
Group mandala creation with rocks, twigs, flower blossoms, etc. for Finding Matt Greene. Saturday, Sept 14, 7PM at Escondido Art Partnership Gallery, Main & Juniper. Outdoors, for creating beauty and sending healing and loving energy to Matt Greene, and
Credit: pacarockhound
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 14, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
Hi Tiffany,

This is a very difficult situation; my thoughts are with you and your family. I think it’s natural that you feel different things at different times and that you sometimes feel numb.

Regarding P’s vision, given that Matt was calling for someone named John in it, I wonder whether the location described would ring a bell with John…

(Regarding the directions, P may have meant exactly what she said, but I was wondering – if she’s from the east coast she might have gotten her directions turned around the way I did when I moved out here...)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 14, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Hi Donna,

Good to see you on the forum. (I try to ignore the bitey types.)

You mentioned
I should mention I sent photos of an area near there where the infamous fence leads to a trail off of Sherwin Creek rd that leads to Mammoth Rock which leads to the Lake Basin which leads to Crystal Lake, Mammoth Crest etc. etc.

That’s the Mammoth Rock Trail, right? It also starts east of the campground…
http://www.mammothtrails.org/trail/22/mammoth-rock-trail/

According to the caption, the Wikipedia Mammoth Mountain picture with that post-and-wire fence was taken from route 395, meaning that it's east of the campground and also east of town. Do you happen to know whether the fence runs along 395, or does it kind of go cross-country? I gather that Sherwin Creek Road makes a T intersection with 395. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammoth_Mountain.jpg

Do you happen to know whether there are a bunch of similar fences around the area?
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 14, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Actually, the International Distress Signal is 3 of anything.....flashes of light, whistle blasts, logs laid out next to each other, hash marks tracked out in the snow, etc.----------

this is from an old post by Cragman.


I am thinking about the intuitive "P" saying she kept getting the number three......
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 14, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Yes, LAHiker, the trail I wondered about is Mammoth Rock trail. It leads to Lake Basin.

Yes, it looks like Sherwin Creek Rd. crosses the 395 (on the map) but I am not familiar with that section of it.

I don't see a lot of fences like that but I will pay more attention. The most obvious fence, and hiking area East of the campground that I found is here

http://www.summitpost.org/hot-creek/390352/c-390239

The ice axe would not make sense there but so much of this is a mystery.

This website gives you an indication of areas where hikers /climbers get in trouble and how busy SAR is. It took 2 days of solid searching to find the deceased hiker in Rock Creek and they knew where to look! http://www.monosar.org/operations.html
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
Hi Tyler,

Thanks for your responses to my questions! If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the rocks at the bottom of the mountain looked sharp, opaque, and kind of like what a sidewalk would look like if you smashed it. (I think you said it was a dark gray, though I think of sidewalks as being a lighter color…)

You say you’ve received pictures of domes and mountains and that a few were similar in their terrain, rock color, texture, etc. I understand that you want to focus on compiling people’s visions & dreams to get info that others might use to easily locate Matt, and that you don’t want to speculate about location yourself.

I agree that there are a lot of places in the area with similar terrain and features – many steep slopes with cliffs above them, dome-shaped mountains/formations, wide paths with mountain views, etc., so it’s hard to use the info to pinpoint a particular location.

But I’m wondering – might it make sense to share a couple of the pictures you’ve received that have aspects similar to those in your visions? You could make clear that you’re not saying Matt was at this particular mountain, just that (for instance) the rocky slope in the picture was the same color and texture as the one in your vision. I mean, you know what that looked like, but it would be good if others could too.

That way, if searchers who are open to such things saw a similar rocky slope or whatever, they could pay special attention. Anyway, it’s just a thought.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 15, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
LA Hiker,

Great idea!
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
Pacarockhound, thanks! Ad thanks for thinking of that post by Cragman in relation to P’s vision – I think it's an excellent point that three of anything is an international distress signal. (I was also wondering if 3rd class rock could be referred to – as in, this was only supposed to be 3rd class rock!)

Hikesfortheview, thanks for your further thoughts and for the Mono SAR link – some of those accounts are hair-raising…

Thanks also for the link to Hot Creek with the fence. I’m glad you’re going to keep your eyes out for such fences.

Because Hot Creek is part of the Mammoth Lakes Trail system, maybe we could talk with someone who maintains the fences and who might also be familiar with the other kind of fence Tyler mentioned. While Hot Creek itself might be unlikely as somewhere Matt may have gone, maybe the same kind of fence is also found in more likely locations. (I hope to post some thoughts about possible locations shortly.)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
On the assumption that useful info can be gotten from people's visions and dreams, I’ve been thinking about various locations. This is my own take on things, based on which people and visions resonate with me the most – someone else may weigh or synthesize things differently. Tyler’s excellent compilation is more thorough -- I know I've left a lot of important things out -- and he’s more used to this sort of info, but here goes anyway.

While not all of the visions can be correct, they have some common threads: Matt falls down, perhaps into a ravine or cleft or narrow place, is injured and maybe can’t move, and is looking up at the sky which is partly obscured.

Caveat: It’s not always clear whether something in a vision should be taken literally or symbolically – does the number 3 mean distress, three mountains, or three missing pieces of gear? Does the color blue and diamonds or crystals refer to trail markers, names of places, rocks that look like crystals, ice, or a sliver of sky seen by an injured Matt? Of course, elements can have multiple meanings and levels.

Another issue: Some of the dreams and visions appear to be pointing in a different direction than some of the “hard” evidence and its interpretation. As Donna notes, the gear Matt had with him (ice axe, crampons, winter mountaineering boots) points to a destination with snow, and his character and habits might suggest a challenging or classic climb or hike, but some of the visions and dreams appear to be pointing away from areas with snow.

Of course, something could have happened to Matt on the way to a bigger hike, or on the way to a ride, or he might have taken a turn around the neighborhood before the shuttle started in the morning. And the dreams and visions may suggest things to look for even within the main area suggested by the "hard" evidence, namely, the Ritter Range. So here are some rough criteria:

Major criteria
-involves a treeless, rocky slope of the sort Tyler described
(not super-steep, has 4 to 6 inch clumps of gray (dark gray?) rock
-above that slope is a more cliff-like area
(I think Tyler said there might be some snow or ice up there)
-the slope was near a post and barbed-wire fence
-possibly near a dome-shaped mountain
-may involve a ravine or a crevice between rocks where you could fall
-path to area may involve view of two mountains in distance
-may be east of campground (assuming P’s directions are right)
-may be fairly close (within several miles) from campground
-may be near trail marked by blue diamonds
-may be near a feature named “blue” or “crystal”
-may have crystal-like rocks
-may be near three mountains-tops or boulders to east of campground
(middle one is taller) – may be between second and third
-may be in Mammoth Crest area

Extra points for: near stream or water with turtles; has snakes or near snake-shaped creek or other water; may be near stream you can drive through; not very far from wide trail with post and beam fence; may be near old mines; near Glass Creek; near lake shaped like an arrowhead pointing north.

Practical criteria:
-Could fit into plausible narrative of what Matt did that day
-Reachable by him in a dayhike or if he had a ride
-has snow or on the way to somewhere that does (or Matt could have thought area might have snow)
-Fits with Matt's skills and interests: tends to do challenging/classic climbs and hikes but relatively cautious
-Not so dangerous that he wouldn’t have done it without his helmet
-Has rocks that might have tempted him
-Not already thoroughly searched or so well-traveled he would have been found there already
-Has somewhere where you could fall down.
-Ease of search – is area small or well-defined? How hard is it to search an area? (I'm not saying he's more likely to be in easily searched area, just that if an area was promising and easy to search one could do so.)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
Now I’ll consider some trails and areas in relation to these rough criteria. I’m not saying we should run out and search all these places (and some have already been searched) – I’m just considering them in relation to the criteria. This list is a sampling. I welcome additions, comments, and corrections, especially from those familiar with the area.

Trails near Shady Rest Campground – the Shady Rest Trail is easy and unexciting, but it’s marked with blue diamonds. From the topo map, it looks like there are some trails/roads to the east of the campground that may go to some bluffs above 395 (and maybe near post and wire fences) that might have some steep places.

Earthquake Fault Trail
Pro – A blue diamond trail. Not far from campground (though not to east). Rocks one can fall down between; crevices to fall into.
Con – very well-traveled – Matt would have been found unless there are some more obscure nooks and crannies there? Easy and might be hard to fit into a narrative of Matt's day. No snow. One of the two Donnas did some searching in this area but was unable to get to some more obscure and dangerous parts of it.

“Back” – south side – of Mammoth Mountain
Pro: Not far from campground. Steep places where one could fall down. Dome-shaped mountain. Matt could have gone there to watch sun rise. Does this have rocky slopes with cliffs? Definitely has rocks. Some ski trails there are marked with black diamonds and blue squares (but those are mostly on the front of the mountain, where he would have been found). Has some fumeroles that have overcome people with C02 emissions.
Con: No snow, right? Even the back side of the mountain is probably very well-traveled – are there any obscure places there? Fumeroles only get you if you’re in an enclosed space.

Mammoth Crest area
Pro – area Matt showed Tyler in a dream. Good climbing up there. Many rocky slopes with cliffs above. Lots of views of other mountains.

Con – little to no snow this year due to drought, and Matt probably knew that – he went to the area three times that we know of. Very large area so must consider specific parts of it as well as trails in nearby (very large) lake basin area – I’ll mention one of these first.

Mammoth Rock Trail
Pro – trailhead is east of campground, near post and wire fence. Goes up to steep area with old mines and with Old Mammoth road. Probably has wide trail with good view of peaks. Short trail – easy to check out
Con – no snow – why would Matt have gone in that direction?

Blue Crag
Pro: “Blue.” Rocky slopes with cliffs above (not sure rock texture/color matches)
Con: Many climbs there very difficult, unlikely for Matt to do solo and without helmet. No snow up there this year.

Blue Couloir
Pro: “Blue.” Right next to Blue Crag with its rocky slopes. Many years has snow.
Con: This year the snow was gone by then and Matt probably knew that.

Crystal Crag
Pro – “Crystal.” Not far from Crystal Lake (arrowhead shaped, pointing north.)
Con – no snow at all. Matt had spent a day climbing there and tended not to repeat climbs.

Inyo/Mono domes area
Pro – called domes – kind of dome-shaped. Treeless, rocky slopes. Near Glass Creek. Also has craters you can fall into, with steep slopes and water.
Con – the rocks may not look like the ones Tyler saw, which were opaque, dull, and gray. At least at Obsidian Dome I think the rocks are more brightly colored and shiny. I don’t think there are really big cliffs there. No snow at all.

Ritter Range, including Mount Ritter, Banner Peak, the Minarets, and various passes and notches. I’m also including the nearby lake area and meadows. As we all know, this vast and rugged area is the prime search area; it has been discussed extensively and searched to some extent. I will only consider it briefly in relation to the rough criteria.

Pro: Matt had expressed interest in the area; he tore out those pages from the Secor guidebook. It’s one of the only areas near Mammoth Lakes that still had snow in mid-July (and glaciers), which fit with Matt’s gear. Many treeless rocky slopes with more cliff-like areas above and with snow on top of that. I think many of the slopes resemble the one Tyler saw. Many slippery rocks to fall between. One can also fall in “moats” next to glaciers and into bergschrunds, which are too dangerous to search. Gullies with streams from glacier melt.

Con: No connection with “blue,” “crystal” (unless the reference was to ice or to a sliver of sky.) Mountains don’t seem very dome-shaped. Not near campground nor to its east. I don't know if there are any post-and-wire fences there -- haven't seen them in photos close to the mountains. Suspect if there are any, would be lower down, on the approach, in areas closer to the meadows. Finally, Matt had to get to area from campground – it seems likely he had a ride, though no one has come forward yet.

Also in that general area, Volcanic Ridge has rocky slopes, cliffs, and lots of places to fall down, but no snow. Also the rocks may be different from the ones Tyler saw, though I think Tyler at one point dreamed of a volcanic area with dark rock. The “standard” cross-country route between Ediza and Minaret Lake (or vice versa) has rocky slopes like the ones Tyler saw, steep places, lakes, streams, but little snow.

Even within this large area, the visions may encourage one to pay attention to certain features. For instance, Cragman suspects that rather than a dramatic fall from a high place, Matt had an injury that pinned him down. The visions instead suggest a fall into a crevice or ravine. Though crystals are mentioned, ice is not, possibly implying a ravine or gully or crevice (or maybe a moat) more than a bergschrund, which (as I understand it) has ice on both sides. Also, if there are any fences of the sort Tyler saw in the area, one could look near them.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 15, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
Great job!

I am wondering how many people searched this weekend, and where.

Also hope this info in such a concise form can be shared with those on the ground.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:02am PT
One more thought.

There must be a Mammoth Lakes Business Association, Chamber of Commerce, etc.

Also, Yosemite and even that town in Nevada with possible sighting -

Can the Find Matt Greene poster (and/or video)be sent to them?

They can then send to all their members.

I can do this if you want.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Thanks, Pacarockhound!

I hope people familiar with the area (and/or with the dreams and visions) can look this material over, add other areas, and correct any errors before it's shared with others.

Regarding sharing this with people on the ground, I think it's only effective to share this sort of material with those who are open to it. After all, this set of criteria emphasizes dreams and visions as strongly as practical things, which is a little weird and experimental.

Also, different people may quite reasonably weigh different features differently. For instance, if you rule out all areas without snow, you're back with the Ritter Range area and with any places Matt might have gone on the way (as well as any more distant places with snow he might have gotten a ride to).

But maybe some of the areas I mentioned could be the basis of some non-technical searches...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:17am PT
That's a very impressive organization of a lot of miscellaneous ideas, LA Hiker. If only the thread dealing with purely material clues were that organized!
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:21am PT
Thanks, Jan!

In fairness to the other thread, I think I must say that SplitPants has made amazing compilations of info from that thread and other sources (timelines, info known, gear, etc.), but at the moment they're rather far down in that thread. (I can put in some links tomorrow -- right now must conk out.)

Some of SplitPants's compilations are based on Tiffany's excellent collections of info. Kellydoesntclimb has created and regularly updates a map of places of interest; others have annotated maps as well. Cragman's reports are wonderful and moving documents, and HighTraverse has drawn search areas onto Tom Cochrane's panoramic aerial photos. Not to mention much sound logic, good reasoning, caring and positivity by a host of others, and most important, the patience and perseverance of Matt's family and friends during a very difficult time.

We have a lot of talent and passion here. I hope we can find Matt!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Sep 16, 2013 - 12:51am PT
Yes, many people have contributed a lot of valuable information. Some have even commented that it was too much information. That's why I like what you did. It's concise enough it's not overwhelming.
cookzie

Social climber
Pennsylvania
Sep 16, 2013 - 11:54am PT
I came across this today and thought that it matched one of the psychic's visions...the one about the couple from a different era.

http://www.highsierratopix.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3627

"...I was there in 1973 to climb Ritter and Banner (did Ritter via the west face hence the route through the Ritter Lakes). Glacier Pass is very easy (class 1 to 2), although you pass this ominous gravesite on the way up "Here lies Conrad and Anna Redenbacher". I didn't know what that was all about until reading Allsup's excellent "Missing in the Minarets". Apparently they were a couple killed in 1934 on the east face of Banner (whose bodies, like Starr's, were found by Norman Clyde). I vividly remember Catherine and especially Ritter Lakes as having been the most beautiful lakes I had ever seen up to that time. Unbelievably deep blue. Walking from Catherine around the corner to the Ritter Lakes was trivial--mixed talus (not particularly hard as I recall) with some easy bedrock--all class 1 to 2 stuff."
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
That is fascinating. I will pass that info onto my friend who had that vision of the couple....

In terms of searching for Matt------I guess this could mean several things.

1. He hiked past this grave
2. He ran into trouble near this grave
3. .......?

Noteworthy: "the unbelievable deep blue....."

**
AND, most important - has this gravesite area been searched??????**

East face of the Minaret....? edit: rather, east face of Banner
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Is this the area where gravesite is?

This is from a post on searching the minaret glacier that Cragman wrote awhile back:
//
As I was driving down south this morning, I was thinking of where my next area of search might be....and since my left foot is gonna hinder me for the next couple of weeks, perhaps there is a team that might be keen on searching this particular spot.

It would be the shoulder just below the direct east face of Clyde Minaret and above Cecile Lake, wrapping around to the north, ending at the south side of the main gully that I climbed into below the glacier.

If Matthew came in via the Red's trailhead, with the intent of gaining the east glacier, he may have traversed this area. Cup and I simply did not have time to include it in our last foray posted herein, other than to glass it with binoculars.

It should be implicitly said that this area should only be searched by people with a strong climbing background!!!! The area is not overtly steep, and is mostly 2nd to 4th class, but there is LOTS of loose talus and scree, making it VERY dangerous!

If anyone is interested, I would be glad to talk more with you about it...leave a message here and I will PM ya.

Thanks,
DR Italic Text//

Has anyone searched here yet?
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

My psychic friend who had the vision of the couple from the 1930s being buried did another meditation this afternoon and this is what she got:


MATTHEW GREENE


9/16/2013

A meadow, waist-high grass, dry, straw-like; a few trees, maybe Oak. I thought of snakes in the meadow grass here, hard to see them... remembering Wendy's “Snake” River... might he have been bitten by a snake?


A stream nearby or running through or at the edge, of the meadow, maybe near the trees. Is that stream called "Snake" something? Is this the same stream where I saw the red vehicle trying to cross? The dirt road dips down to the creek bed and crosses it. The wheels of the vehicles roll through the water of the stream to cross.

A Cafe. He ate there. I got the taste of dill pickles-- he ate them before he left. May have left from there to hike. Did he like dill pickles? Cafe is in a forested area, or among trees... a campground?

Perhaps a medium could contact the Redenbachers, the couple who died there & were buried there in the 1930's. I picked them up during my last meditation. I think they may have helped Matt after he passed, or are at least aware of what happened. --Gwyn
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 16, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
I just ran across this post from Friend Lost in Mammoth thread, aug 25th
from Tiffany I think-----I hadn't seen this before

Pretty sure Head gasket blew around July 4th; had to wait for holiday to pass to get car into shop. Confirming w my parents. Can you say longest repair ever?

It was so much time, I think he did anything and everything to pass the time. His friends did say all his clohes were clean, folded, organized like he'd just done laundry. No doubt preparing to leave town.

Ok, going to go off on a tangent here. Not sure if none believes in psychics. I don't usually bother with them but when there are no other clues, well, several of us did touch base with them. About the only interesting one was the following:

-She feels to look within a mile radius of where his car is. (That would have been the garage where it was being fixed.) She sees a walkway/road with a rail of some sort, from there if you look over it, there is water. She feels he fell, didn't get severely injured from the fall but needed help and didn't have reception. Feels he was bit by a snake in his calf and he may be in a ravine. She said she had seen this over and over. If she sees anything additional she will call me.-

The other thing that has been bugging Matt's friends is that all the evidence seems to indicate that Matt spent the day of the 16th in town. We saw that he “liked” and commented on an article on Summitpost on a topic that indicated he was just killing time. His laundry was clean and folded. He went to Rite Aid. His campsite was paid for that night. So we assume that he went off for a day hike on the morning of the 17th. His phone records show that he spoke to the garage on the 16th and was told the car would be done on the 18th. The confusing thing is that Detective Hornbeck and Bill Green said that his calls at 8:12 and 3:09 on the 16th were from town (according to the ping off the tower) and the 4:30-4:35 calls to/from the garage were pinging from on top of mammoth or north of there. Which makes no sense. Why would he be in town all day and then go up to mountain.



------------------------------------------------------------------------



So, Andrea (one of Matt's friends that went back out), has been keeping in touch w Donna (driver out there who was super helpful) and they've been relaying back and forth.

One of the possibilities discussed was Earthquake Vault: in a MSG from Donna: "Just got back from a hike up at the Earthquake Fault with a friend. Spent a hour and a half there. Mile from town, ravine, railing, no water, no snakes. You can get cell phone reception there just a bit North, East of the mountain. Hiked along the rim. Did not go into the bottom. Parts of it are very steep and cant get into it, at least someone my age cant but someone younger could go down in there and check it out. Might be a bit dangerous. Funny thing is that there is a trail my friend said that goes from Shady Rest Campground directly to the Earthquake Fault. Don't believe much in psychics, but I'm thinking I may change my mind here. "

One of Donna's friends also said, "If he did stay in town and the first psychic is accurate, then he could have walked up the bike path on Lake Mary Rd. Once you get up toward Tamarack, there is a rushing creek that is a big drop down into a ravine and I think a railing. Maybe the cell phone ping from the mountain would occur if he were up there?"

So everyone, take that for what you will. Wanted to share; might be easy quick places to search and prove psychic right or wrong.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
Pacarockhound,

Thanks for reposting that. Tiffany and Donna's messages are why I included the Earthquake Fault Trail in my list of places. But I hadn't noticed the part about Lake Mary road, the ravine, and the railing. Though it sounds like a very well-traveled area, it would probably be worth double-checking. Maybe Donna has some thoughts on this.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 17, 2013 - 01:04am PT
... there is a trail ... that goes from Shady Rest Campground directly to the Earthquake Fault.
Not so.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 01:42am PT
Perhaps a wording problem? Maybe a road rather than a trail? I believe the speaker lives in Mammoth Lakes and is basing that comment on first hand experience?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 17, 2013 - 02:10am PT
Agreed - you could get there by different roads etc, but the statement as was posted is fairly misleading (wrong).
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 06:13am PT
I am a different Donna, not a bus driver and I didn't go to the Earthquake fault.

I believe I explained, in the early days of the FB page, that there is a bike/walking path that is paved that goes up to the Lake Basin. It's right along the road, so a smart way to go if you want to try to catch a ride with someone going fishing.

There are several fences along the way protecting travelers from the steep drop off.

Another way up to the Lake Basin is the dirt trail that starts at Sherwin road and heads by Mammoth Rock. (this is where the other type of old fence is, the barb wire/old wood.

All of the trails are very well traveled but not much early early a.m. If Matt went off trail or fell off trail, he could be missed.

I don't think Mammoth Lakes has snake issues at the elevation we are at.

Question? Did Matt have a flashlight with him? If he did, you know he left early. If he didn't, that is questionable.

Here is a link and photo (I hope) of Lake Mary road with the bike path beside it http://www.mammothtrails.org/trail/8/lakes-basin-path/

The Earthquake fault is not in this area but if you use that link you can have a better understanding of the trail system around Mammoth.
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 17, 2013 - 09:12am PT
Hi Donna,

Thanks for clarifying and for the link to the Lakes Basin Path. The fence in the picture that came up in that link looks a bit like the other one Tyler saw -- not the one near where Matt was falling but the one where he was standing on a broad path or road looking at the mountains.

I didn't realize that there are two different Donnas involved and that it was the other one who went to the Earthquake Fault!

Based on this map of the "Blue Diamond" cross-country ski trail system, it looks like (if one wanted to) one could get to the Earthquake Fault area from Shady Rest using an long and very roundabout bunch of trails -- am I reading the map right? But as you indicate, it would make a lot more sense just to take the road.
http://www.cityconcierge.com/mammoth-lakes/community/Maps/bluediamond.jpg

Regarding whether Matt had a flashlight, I agree that without one, he wouldn't have gone walking before dawn. But it's my impression that if Matt had planned to spend the day hiking or climbing, whatever time he left, he would have taken a flashlight. It's one of the 10 essentials -- many experienced hikers routinely carry a light in their pack, just in case. (For me, it's a headlamp.)
scooter

climber
fist clamp
Sep 17, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Maybe we could/should combine this thread and the Mazzy Star thread into a cat lovers/collectors thread?
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
Good information Donna! The photos of that bike path next to the road also goes along with Gwyn's vision of a "wide road".


LA Hiker, what do you think of Gwyn's vision of the 1930s couple, and the fact that there was a couple buried on the east face of banner ------- I think I read that right.

Do you know if anyone has searched the east face of banner?
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 17, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Pacarockhound,

Based on giantbrookie's post in this High Sierra Topix thread, I've been having a hard time figuring out which side of Banner has the Conrad and Anna Redenbacher gravesite (Edit: it should be spelled Rettenbacher), and whether that is also where they died (which seems likely but not certain). I bet this would be clearer to climbers and hikers familiar with the area.

Regarding whether the east side of Banner has been searched, it appears that the answer is yes, to some extent. Here's a link:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2218277#msg2218277

Alpineholydog also went near there:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2220020#msg2220020

That guy David with the great photo essay went close to there on his climb up Ritter -- he apparently has some photos of the east side of Banner. I think some of Cragman's searches took him near that area but would have to double-check when I have more time.

Also, if Gwyn later said she thought the spirits of the Redenbachers may have been helpful to Matt or aware of his situation, does that mean he necessarily had his accident on Banner? Though her vision definitely makes one pay more attention to that area.
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 17, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Here is information about the grave mentioned above

http://www.stanford.edu/~galic/rettenbacher/deadends.html

It leads to this which is very informative about accidents in that location

http://www.stanford.edu/~galic/rettenbacher/accidents.html

There are other interesting old graves in Mammoth. One is the Gibbs (in the meadow below Mammoth Rock) and Townsend, in Historic Mill City off of Old Mammoth Road on the way to the Lake Basin. I have walked by Gibbs and Townsend on numerous occasions so thought anyone interested/able to communicate has options. I have enough trouble communicating with live people but I won't question any effort to find answers.

While I was searching around for info I found this article.
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2007/01/case-number-03-0929-murder-mammoth-lakes#.UjjI8RzXOpp
Interesting for a few reasons. It's by Shady Rest, it points out that in 25 years Mammoth only had 3 murders (Foul play VERY unlikely compared to hiking accidents as stated above) plus the detective on this case sounds amazing. He has since retired but that article led me to this one. Wow.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/03/can-this-dog-solve-the-black-dahlia-homicide.html




LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 17, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
Donna, thanks for the links!

It looks like I was spelling Rettenbacher wrong. From the same website you found, this page has the index:

http://www.stanford.edu/~galic/rettenbacher/index.html

Apparently that website is deliberately vague about the location of the gravesite, but other sources say it's North Glacier pass and that the Rettenbachers were found "on a glacier at the base of the northeast face of Banner Peak" and that they were buried about a quarter of a mile away in a meadow.
http://www.examiner.com/article/high-sierra-is-final-resting-site-for-young-couple-after-early-climbing-accident

Edit: Despite what the article says, it looks like the Rettenbachers are buried in or near North Glacier Pass, to the northwest of Banner.

Here's a report from a trip to Mt. Ritter that passed the grave:
http://www.theradioroom.org/LkCatherine/LakeCatherine.htm

Paul Dostie does sound like an awesome detective -- it's a bummer he's retired.



pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 17, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
I'm back.

I'm going to ask Gwyn to look over recent posts. I am going to look them over now too.

LA Hiker , true Gwyn sensing the Rettenbackers around doesn't necessarily mean it was the same place, as the spirit world is everywhere...

that mention of their grave in the meadow-------that sounds like Gwyn's description of tall grass or plants......

Wonder what would happen if one of you contacted that retired detective? maybe he could help unofficially? I wonder what he thinks about his dog being a help or no at this point.

All the references to banner I have seen have been northeast. Nothing due east. Edit: after reading the links above, it sounds like the Rettenbackers fell from the east side of Banner but were buried at the foot of the west side of Banner Peak.---in a meadow -

-
Has that area been searched?
How far is that from Shady Oaks campground?
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 18, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
Blue Crag and impromptu patriarchal cross ...
Credit: ß Î Ø T Ç H
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 18, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Pacarockhound,

Reading the reports carefully, I agree that though the Examiner piece says the Rettenbachers died climbing the east face of Banner, it appears that they died climbing the west side of Banner from near Lake Catherine. They fell from one of the buttresses of the mountain on that side down onto the glacier on the west side of the peak.

It looks like they were buried 1/4 mile from the glacier, near North Glacier Pass. (Note that that's to the northwest of Banner, not to the east. It would have made no sense to carry their bodies around to the other side of Banner -- it's extremely rugged terrain!)

As to whether the area has been searched, I think mattyj's search looked down that side of the mountain:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2195321&msg=2206829#msg2206829

I think a fair amount of people climb Banner Peak from the Lake Catherine area, but am not sure. Another question is whether, on a day hike, Matt would have gone that way. To me, it seems to be the long way 'round. I guess he might have fallen in that direction even if he had come up another way.

Finally, the area around Banner, like the rest of the Ritter Range, is very far from the Shady Rest campground. It is 10 miles from the campground to Agnew Meadows, the closest trailhead to that area. That's why people think Matt had a ride to the trailhead. I think it's around another 10 miles to the east side (the near side) of Ritter and Banner (and some of that involves climbing rock or glaciers and hence is slow going) -- others can correct me here. I'm guessing it's longer to Lake Catherine.

The map that Kellydoesn'tclimb has been working on may be helpful:
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/viewer?mid=zH95mGu2yK0M.k0POTplcpetE
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 18, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Thank you LA Hiker for the clarification.

I have been looking at maps of Mammoth until I am cross-eyed and still can't get a sense of it. Kellydoesn't climb's map shows locations on top of locations on my computer, so that doesn't work.....

I do, however, live 15 minutes from Old Route 395 and I am tempted to hop in my car and drive straight there! (But can't due to work, etc.)

So.........I did look up the two gravesites in Mammoth and will pass on that info to Gwyn, should she want to contact them. One of gravesites is for father and son, and the other is for a woman. So the image she got of a couple in the 1930s had to be the Rettenbachers.

I read a lot about the Rettenbachers written by Galic from Stanford. I am thinking of contacting him....No one knew the Retttenbachers were missing for 10 days also!

I am curious about the last phone call from Matt possibly being at Mammoth Mountain, the evening of the 16th. Has that ping been traced yet (or whatever the jargon is)?

I have friends who were in Mammoth last week (I didn't know it til I saw them today.)They said they saw no Matt Greene posters anywhere......is there someone who could put some up in Mammoth?
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 19, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
This is response from Harv Galic, who so thoroughly researched and wrote about the Rettenbachers, who died hiking Banner Mtn in the 1930s.



Wendy, I am painfully aware of Matt's disappearance. I came back from
the Sierra yesterday, and I can tell you that the 'missing' posters
are everywhere: at trailheads, national park's enter/exit stations,
forest service ranger station, etc. Actually, I was climbing in the
Minarets (which would be an area of high interest to Matt, and close
to his last known location) in the last week of July. At that time
Matt's disappearance was not yet known, but I didn't see anything
suspicious. However, that means nothing. Even if hundreds of people
were to comb the Minarets, they could still easily miss finding any
clues.

Interesting vision/meditation by your friend, but there was no coffin
in the Rettenbachers case. Their bodies were placed in two simple
canvas bags and buried together in a very shallow grave.

For the sake of family and friends, I wish there is a closure to
Matthew's case, and soon. However, the first snow may come to the
Ritter Range and nearby high mountains as soon as this weekend.

-Harv

The coffin imagery not matching doesn't really bother me. I interpret that as Gwyn's unconscious wishes, or how they would have been buried by their family if they had known.......
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 28, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
I spoke with Gwyn today to see if she has received any more info from the Rettenbachers regarding Matt's disappearance or whereabouts.

She told me her 8 year old grandson invited her to a drumming circle last week and they were all asked to give a prayer for someone. She said she sent Matt loving energy and light, and surrendered to spirit, asking that the Great Spirit be with him and guide him (did I mention she is a Choctaw Indian?)
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Nov 9, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Credit: ß Î Ø T Ç H
Todd Quinn

Trad climber
Oceanside, CA
Feb 5, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
Hello to all, my name is Todd. I want to thank everyone for pulling together your thoughts on where to look for Matthew Greene. I share Matt's story with professional SAR teams and I learned about a special team in Arizona called Find Me. The group is currently trying to help find Doc. Hugues Bellevue missing in Mexico. Kelly Snyder the founder is ex-DEA and he bridges Law enforcement and Psychics together to solve murder cases. Find Me can help bring psychics back to the search to find Matt. The focus group of psychics produce results and different teams can start coming together.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Mar 13, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
Good ideas!
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