Mammoth topography in regards to Visions (FindMattGreene)

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ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Sep 9, 2013 - 12:56am PT
Took my kids up to Horseshoe lake to swim and romp today. Last pic before the battery went dead - Mammoth Crest (Blue Crag on left frame, Crystal Crag on right).
Credit: ß Î Ø T Ç H
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 11, 2013 - 01:35am PT
As I was driving home from Hemet this evening I turned on NPR> It was an interview about the color blue! For ten minutes I listened to a discussion of blue, including blue is the color of the sky. (and lakes)
I had enough and changed to a country station, and the song was about the blue sky. Made me think about the dreams, etc. of blue crystals.....also, Matt grew up by the Blue Mountains of PA.

Wondering also if Allison Dubois has been contacted....
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Hey all.

Here is another bit from two mediums that know each other – does the geography they mention mean anything to anyone?? Really wish I was familiar with the area!!

“V” immediately felt that Matt had passed away and that he was yelling for John to help him. She also picked up on Matt saying that he failed and was very angry with himself. She said she felt that he was a perfectionist but made a mistake and was full of anger towards himself. “V” also said that when the smoke clears from the fires that are going on in the area Matt's location will be revealed. Whether this means cadaver dogs being able to pick up a sent or that he will just be located by chance when the fires are out I'm not sure.

“P” said that when she heard from “V” that I was looking for more information on Matt she immediately picked up the name John that she felt was a friend of Matt's and “P” also kept hearing a man yelling, "I failed! I failed! I failed!" She felt this was Matt yelling and picked up on his anger towards himself.

“P” strongly believes that Matt traveled east of his campsite and wasn't that far away when he fell. She believes there was no foul play just a simple mistake Matt made while walking across rocks that were slippery which is why he so angry with himself. He is experienced, so how could this happen to him. “P” explained that she was seeing Matt fall between some rocks and lying on his back looking up at the sky. She said he was able to see the sky through peephole type breaks in the rocks above. “P” felt he was pretty banged up from the fall but did not succumb to his injuries right away, not that he suffered just that he had time to realize what had happened and become angry. “P” said Matt was yelling for John hoping that he could somehow help him even though he knew he wasn't nearby.

The number three came up quite a bit as well. She said when she attempted to connect with him he kept holding up three fingers but “P” dismissed it as him saying he had three siblings. However, she mentioned Matt being upset because he didn't have three things with him that he really needed. She said he was upset that he didn't have his cell phone and that he wasn't sure if he dropped it or lost it when he fell. He also said something about not having his knife with him and that it was silly of him to forget it. The third thing was his ropes, she said he either was having a problem with the ropes he had at the campsite or he left them at the campsite or they weren't the right ropes??

“P” felt his anger was holding him back from crossing over after he died. He just kept repeating that he failed and this was an unacceptable way to die. “P” said that his grandmother (mother's mother) was there to comfort him and help guide him to the light to cross over and be at peace. There also was an angelic type of energy with him to help guide him.

“P” also said that Matt had an urgency about connecting with his Dad, she felt he had a medical condition related to his heart or a previous heart attack that Matt was worried he would have complications with because of all the stress of the situation.

The other connection with the number three “P” mentioned was Matt showing her three large boulders or mountain tops with the middle of the three being the taller. She said Matt was showing her that his location is between the second and the third one not far from his campsite going east.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 12, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Can this be shared with the climbers, especially the ones looking now?
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 12, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Tiffany,

Interesting thoughts from V and P. The emotional part is plausible, but when I look at the topo map, I don't see the features P mentioned close to the campground, I'm not from the area so don't take my word for it.

Also the scale of P's vision isn't very clear -- three mountains? three big rocks? Do you know whether P has a good sense of direction? Maybe we can get Donna from Mammoth over here and she can comment...

Perhaps Matt could have taken one of those Blue Diamond Trails (that we were discussing earlier) that heads briefly east and then bends around toward the west?? Not sure why he would do so, but maybe he was on the way somewhere bigger...

I do find it interesting that several intuitives have the sense that something happened to Matt not far from his campground. In a practical sense, that strikes me as surprising, because Mammoth Lakes sounds very busy and one would think he would have been found by now. But it's certainly possible.

Pacarockhound, many of the climbers are very skeptical of this side of things, but some do check this thread periodically. Tiffany just asked some to comment. I wish the intuitives could come to something more like a consensus...


LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 12, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
Hi Tyler,

I don’t know whether you’re still checking this thread, but I had a few more questions for you about your vision. (Tiffany has added some other people’s visions.) I don't know how to integrate the different visions, but I'd like to ask a bit more about yours.

As I understood it, you had two main visions. In one, you saw Matt on a dark-colored mountainside with no trees, not very steep, but leading to steeper cliffs above. (You later said you thought there was ice and snow higher up.) As Matt reaches the steeper cliffs, he falls back and out of sight. I think that was the vision in which he mentioned the blue diamond. You said that you had the impression that near where Matt was falling, he was near a dome or a dome-like mountain. Just before this vision, you saw a fence with wooden posts connected by wires that was similar to the one in this picture; you thought it might have been on the way to the mountain where he was falling:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Mammoth_Mountain.jpg

You said that Matt made clear to you that he impressed upon you that he wasn’t equipped to do a big peak and would have had a partner if he’d intended to do something like that. Yo say he might have been doing something lower down, something relatively easy and safe, when something went wrong.

Then there was also a vision in which Matt was standing on a large trail or unpaved road, with a short fence or railing nearby, looking at two distant prominent peaks. (The fence in this vision was old, natural, unpainted, and weathered, I think made of wooden posts connected by wooden crossbars.) You said this appeared to be a happier and more trivial vision than the one in which he’s falling. But still, you said you woke from it screaming with terrible back pain.

(You also said that at one point, Matt showed you a map of the Mammoth Crest and expressed strong interest in the area. It sounded like at that point you were thinking of two areas, one down towards the Mammoth Crest and the other further north, in the direction of the Inyo National Forest.)

I had a few questions.

-Have you had any more visions, intuitions, or dreams related to Matt?

-In the vision where Matt was falling, how strong was your impression that there was a dome-shaped feature or mountain nearby? In other words, how important is “dome-shaped”? If it was a crucial element, and we posted some pictures of dome-shaped things, do you think one might ring a bell? (I know you said you didn’t see it full on.)

-You said that the mountain where he was falling was made of dark rock – sort of gravelly, near the bottom of the mountain, of big dark-gray clumps of rock around four to six inches. Can you remember whether these rocks were more shiny, sharp-edged, or crystalline, or whether they were more dull, opaque, or rounded? Or somehow both?

-Did you have any sense of where the “falling from a mountainside” vision was located, in relation to the “standing on a wide trail or unpaved road and looking at the mountains” vision? Did you feel they were in a similar place, or that they could have been widely separated?


Thanks!
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Sep 12, 2013 - 07:23pm PT
This week I was around Mammoth and did some investigating and also realized how vast an area he could be in, even close to town.

If he left between 3 and 6 am there is a high likelihood he could hitch a ride to Agnew or Reds. Drivers have to be in by 7 in order to not have to take the bus so traffic is common at this time of morning.

Talking with a friend who spent most of the summer in the back country he says the Mountain Lion scenario is very likely as that is their main hunting time. The number of Lions is way up and hunters have reported a shortage of deer. A 180 pound lion was hit on 395 recently.





Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
Okay, Donna here but if anyone bites my head off for my thoughts I am over it.

Regarding East of town, close to campground http://www.mammothtrails.org/experience/12/hiking-to-sherwin-lakes/#mapTab

I should mention I sent photos of an area near there where the infamous fence leads to a trail off of Sherwin Creek rd that leads to Mammoth Rock which leads to the Lake Basin which leads to Crystal Lake, Mammoth Crest etc. etc. This would be an easy walk for Matt if he started early, wanted to check out something he was curious about. He could have explored off trail and planned on taking the afternoon free shuttle back to town. I really believe if Matt went off trail he could easily have been missed even in a high travel area.

Snow in mid July around Mammoth Crest and Crystal Crag possible though as Cragman pointed out, we had a dry winter. (Ask Matt's friends who were up there with him in early July). From what I understand there was still snow around the base of the Crag. He could have had axe etc just in case.

I understand why most of the emphasis is on Ritter/Banner but that requires really experienced boots on the ground. I also understand that a helicopter is less than desirable but I wonder if it might be time for some of the family to visit Mammoth and get some understanding, closure and peace before winter sets in? I keep trying to put myself in their shoes, I would want this chance. Peace to all~
tdg119

Social climber
Northampton, PA
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Thanks for the insight Donna.

My parents want to go out but whether they will this season or not, I don't know. I want to go but yet not. Honestly I think it would tear me apart to be out there, let alone have to come home again without Matt. Only finding him will bring me any closure, and I not qualified to search myself.

I really don't know how to feel anymore; at different times I've had different gut feelings but lately I'm just numb.
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 12, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
I certainly understand Tiffany. It's hard to know for sure what one would do unless they are in that situation. I hope something happens soon to bring you closer to finding peace.

lazydays

climber
Nazareth, PA
Sep 12, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
I really don't know how to feel anymore; at different times I've had different gut feelings but lately I'm just numb.


What you are going through is overwhelming. But, your strength and perserverance is the driving force that keeps the search for Matt alive. Wherever he is, he is proud of you, proud to call you his sister. Almost seventeen years ago, I lost my son in an amusement park. He was three years old at the time. The little bugger slipped out of the ball pit and got into a tree house; I will never know how he got by me. He was gone for about ten minutes and in that ten minutes I lived and died a million times. So, I cannot even imagine how each day that passes must seem like an eternity. Living somewhere between hope and grief can make one numb. I just hope you know, what we see, what we will always remember, no matter what the outcome, is how hard you have tried, all you have done, how you've pushed forward, all your persistence, all your hope, taking on huge responsibility, coordinating, listening to ideas & taking it all in, shouldering your family's pain, the interviews, the posts, the pleas - to bring Matt home. You are a woman of great determination and strength and Matt is so very lucky to have you... I pray that your hopes and prayers will be answered. I pray for your peace. Keep on keepin' on....
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:07am PT
Lazydays, I am so sorry for your loss.
Your thoughts for Tiffany are wonderful.
JNCalif

Social climber
Hoboken, NJ by way of Orange County, CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 12:59am PT
Tiffany, my heart aches for your and your family. I have two younger brothers and a younger sister and I simply cannot imagine how I would deal with it should I be faced with a similar situation. I grew up skiing at Mammoth and June and thought I knew how extensive the terrain is. Now I realize I didn't have a clue.

I believe with every ounce of my being that no matter where Matt is, he is proud of your strength and your love. May Matt be found soon so that you and your family will have the answers you need. And thank you for sharing an extraordinary man with us. Matt will never, ever be forgotten.

Sending you and your family prayers.

Julie
tylerhenry

Social climber
Hanford
Sep 13, 2013 - 04:53am PT
I was just notified to check this thread, hope everyone is doing well.

-Have you had any more visions, intuitions, or dreams related to Matt?

Unfortunately, the majority of my visions as of late haven't been much of an indicator to location. Since there have been so many people sharing their visions and experience (which is great!), I'm trying to look past trivial information/dreams that is not relevant to the exact location of Matt.

I've had two dreams of him since last posting -- one dream was a bird's eye view of a campground, and I randomly flew south.
The second was Matt and a Caucasian man with balding hair. May have just been a memory he had, or simply a meaningless dream. Either way, neither bits of information seemed definitive enough to post.

-In the vision where Matt was falling, how strong was your impression that there was a dome-shaped feature or mountain nearby? In other words, how important is “dome-shaped”? If it was a crucial element, and we posted some pictures of dome-shaped things, do you think one might ring a bell? (I know you said you didn’t see it full on.)

My impression was pretty solid about the dome, it certainly felt nearby. I wouldn't put incredible emphasis on the "dome shape", as I didn't see it directly and therefore may not be incredibly relevant, but it was what I call a "landmark", or a geographical base in an area to help determine a general location based on notable surrounding elements. I've received quite a few pictures of domes and mountains, and though a few happen to be incredibly similar in their terrain, rock color/texture, etc., nothing directly rings a bell as the dome wasn't clearly visible.

-You said that the mountain where he was falling was made of dark rock – sort of gravelly, near the bottom of the mountain, of big dark-gray clumps of rock around four to six inches. Can you remember whether these rocks were more shiny, sharp-edged, or crystalline, or whether they were more dull, opaque, or rounded? Or somehow both?


The rocks I saw would be fairly sharp, opaque, and "boring". It looked like the equivalent to what the rocks from a sidewalk being smashed (in terms of the consistency, texture, etc.) would look like. Sharp, but nothing spectacular in the color. Pretty solid through and through.

-Did you have any sense of where the “falling from a mountainside” vision was located, in relation to the “standing on a wide trail or unpaved road and looking at the mountains” vision? Did you feel they were in a similar place, or that they could have been widely separated?

I think the two visions were within decent proximity. My personal belief was that the two peaks could be a reference to some mountains near Mammoth Crest, however my vision very well may be a reference to other twin peaks, mountains, etc. Again, in compiling people's visions/dreams/etc., my goal is to establish information that can be used to locate Matt with relative ease. As I've looked in these visions, it has been difficult to find certain visible landmarks (other than the dome reference and the twin mountains) as the entire area and terrain is disorientingly similar in certain areas.

If I had to suggest something worth looking into, more than anything, I'd look at the reference to the wooden railing. It's a relatively unique feature that we might be able to look into further, specifically what trails have railing, and if so, what they look like. As far as I know, searching the Mountain Crest area hasn't been emphasized, as it's most likely too well traveled to harbor Matt. Therefore, I want to stick with my visions and not add my own personal opinion to where they may be, considering I've never been to the specific area. The twin peaks very well may be West, as many have suggested.

T

lazydays

climber
Nazareth, PA
Sep 13, 2013 - 06:56am PT
Lazydays, I am so sorry for your loss.
Your thoughts for Tiffany are wonderful.

pacarockhound - Just wanted to clarify that my son was only missing for about 10 minutes - the ten longest minutes of my life. And I will never forget that ... ever.

I did lose my sister just over three years ago (on her 45th birthday) to cancer. I can truly relate to the pain in loss of a sibling and the emotions, including helplessness that comes with it. The not knowing...I just couldn't imagine.

My heart aches for Matt's family and friends.
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 13, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
Group mandala creation with rocks, twigs, flower blossoms, etc. for Fi...
Group mandala creation with rocks, twigs, flower blossoms, etc. for Finding Matt Greene. Saturday, Sept 14, 7PM at Escondido Art Partnership Gallery, Main & Juniper. Outdoors, for creating beauty and sending healing and loving energy to Matt Greene, and
Credit: pacarockhound
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 14, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Hi Tiffany,

This is a very difficult situation; my thoughts are with you and your family. I think it’s natural that you feel different things at different times and that you sometimes feel numb.

Regarding P’s vision, given that Matt was calling for someone named John in it, I wonder whether the location described would ring a bell with John…

(Regarding the directions, P may have meant exactly what she said, but I was wondering – if she’s from the east coast she might have gotten her directions turned around the way I did when I moved out here...)
LAhiker

Social climber
Los Angeles
Sep 14, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Hi Donna,

Good to see you on the forum. (I try to ignore the bitey types.)

You mentioned
I should mention I sent photos of an area near there where the infamous fence leads to a trail off of Sherwin Creek rd that leads to Mammoth Rock which leads to the Lake Basin which leads to Crystal Lake, Mammoth Crest etc. etc.

That’s the Mammoth Rock Trail, right? It also starts east of the campground…
http://www.mammothtrails.org/trail/22/mammoth-rock-trail/

According to the caption, the Wikipedia Mammoth Mountain picture with that post-and-wire fence was taken from route 395, meaning that it's east of the campground and also east of town. Do you happen to know whether the fence runs along 395, or does it kind of go cross-country? I gather that Sherwin Creek Road makes a T intersection with 395. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mammoth_Mountain.jpg

Do you happen to know whether there are a bunch of similar fences around the area?
pacarockhound

Social climber
Escondido CA
Sep 14, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
Actually, the International Distress Signal is 3 of anything.....flashes of light, whistle blasts, logs laid out next to each other, hash marks tracked out in the snow, etc.----------

this is from an old post by Cragman.


I am thinking about the intuitive "P" saying she kept getting the number three......
Hikesfortheview

Social climber
Sep 14, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Yes, LAHiker, the trail I wondered about is Mammoth Rock trail. It leads to Lake Basin.

Yes, it looks like Sherwin Creek Rd. crosses the 395 (on the map) but I am not familiar with that section of it.

I don't see a lot of fences like that but I will pay more attention. The most obvious fence, and hiking area East of the campground that I found is here

http://www.summitpost.org/hot-creek/390352/c-390239

The ice axe would not make sense there but so much of this is a mystery.

This website gives you an indication of areas where hikers /climbers get in trouble and how busy SAR is. It took 2 days of solid searching to find the deceased hiker in Rock Creek and they knew where to look! http://www.monosar.org/operations.html
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