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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:09am PT
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Riley,
Nobody would enjoy the images you describe. They are all tragic. Surely you have experienced them first hand.
For that matter, I don't like any bad things happening to others, especially children.
There are many tales of woe and loss. Many of which could have been prevented by an armed citizen. I do not expect to change your mind in anyway... You are clearly passionate in your position. I too will not be swayed to your view.
I wish u peace and (assuming ur a doctor?) strength to continue doing what you do.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:40am PT
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Many of which could have been prevented by an armed citizen.
Delusional.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2013 - 03:16am PT
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Delusional.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 28, 2013 - 06:54am PT
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Jeeze i thought we were talking about .22lr here.... Yea Reiley we know the world sucks. some of us live out in the country though and like eat what we shoot.
My bad for bringing up MOH but since we are talking .22lr here perhaps the correct anology would have been min of squirle.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Aug 28, 2013 - 10:21am PT
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So how many of you GI joes have seen in real life what these rounds do to humans?
Anyone ever killed a man?
Or seen what occurs when a high powered round grazes a nose and exits at the TMJ joint. Or seen one take apart a child's skull. Or blow out a hole in a knee the size of a dinner plate. Or bounce around inside a skull. Or blow a hole in the left ventricle?
Anyone ever hug his kid in the morning while brain matter from the night before still covers his shoes?
Or try to plug the hole in a heart with your finger?
Or carry a dead child into a helicopter, while covered in his blood, and while the blood covered parents scream the makings of a million nightmares and scratch at your skin and pull at your blood covered hair?
Or gently close the eyes of a dead four year old as your stare at the tiny hole between his eyes?
How about getting sprayed with countless gallons of blood as you try to stop a persons life from gushing from them?
Lol
F*#king wannabe Rambo pussies
Stick to your fairy tale, mother goose, soldier of fortune sh#t... Enjoy that you won't have to ever know what these guns are made to do to babies, skin, lives and the joy of a lifetime.
Pretend that you are real men, instead of pathetic children, when you buy up thousands of rounds to hoard in your homes and shoot at paper objects...
Lol
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 28, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
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I saw my first person shot and dying in '72.
Some people are more traumatized than others by the sight.
I can understand that Riley needs a therapeutic rant from time to time, but this is a thread about market forces and the lowly .22 round.
Perhaps the climbing anti-gun crowd could have their own get together (better make it inside a National Park). They could hold hands around a campfire, and discuss how pathetic gunners are.
Hopliphobiafest!
Better than wasting space here,..
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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Huh.
I guess I havent seen what bullets do to a human body 1st hand.
I imagine it,s exactly similar to what they do to other mamals. Elk, deer, rabbits, quail, chukar, squirrels, skunks, snakes, all blown to sh#t by a high-speed hunk of lead. Why would a human body exhibit any different physical characteristics?
Oh, I see. What mr Wyna is talking about would be the emotional impact such violent death carries with it, and the blame that more or less gets placed on the gun, and especially, it seems, upon anyone whosoever might dare to posess such inherently evil devices.
Wannabe rambo paper punchers? Dude, come down off your God-complex for a minute and realize you just can,t save everyone. Do you get just as agro about all the violent deaths from supposedly unpreventable accidents too?
Shot a squirrel with a 30-06 once. Wasn,t much left to eat. Made some pretty horrific gurglhng breaths in its death throes too. Much better to stick with the old 22lr on those.
And as to punching paper, yeah- i like to be as accurate as possible if I,m going to go kill something, so it,s as fast and painless as such a death might possibly be without wasting meat.
Rambo wannabe? With a 22lr? Not so much.
Vegan thing workin out for ya? Cool. That,s commendable. Bitching here? Not so much.
Sure do like the old Colt Woodsman, and the Sears Roebuck version of a lever action Marlim. They will never be olympic grade, nor sub MOA, but they both meet the minimum minute-of-squirrel at 50 yards with big-box ammo.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Course. at todays pricing and lack of availability i dont shoot much.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 28, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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The delusional "libruls" at Harvard have finished a study which totally debunks the gun grabbers views.
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/08/24/harvard-study-proves-gun-grabbers-argument-dead-wrong-82127
Summation: "...when it comes to gun-grabbers, the whole thing can be summed up in two:
You’re. Wrong."
"The study takes up 45 pages in the spring issue of the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy."
Snippit:
"what Harvard’s saying flies in the face of liberal pieties – and misconceptions and lies – about gun ownership, gun violence and gun control in the United States.
Like the recently reported CDC study about gun violence Obama commissioned himself, the message to gun grabbers is clear:
They’re wrong.
A Harvard study released in the spring – to virtually no media attention – focused on the prevalence of gun ownership in the United States versus those strict gun-control countries in Europe the left is so fond of talking about.
It was called, with disarming bluntness, “Would banning firearms reduce murder and suicide?”
Its answer was: “No.”
Looking at historical patterns in the United States from the colonial and post-colonial days, and in Europe going back to the time before guns were even invented, two Harvard researchers came to a clear conclusion:
“Nations with higher gun ownership rates … do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership.”
That’s just a fact, even in those European countries the U.S. left is so fond of citing.
Heavily armed Norwegians, where gun ownership is highest in Western Europe, have the continent’s lowest homicide rate, researchers Don Kates and Gary Mauser wrote.
Russia, where the civilian population was virtually disarmed by the communist government for 80 years, has one of the highest homicide rates in Europe – and one four times higher than in the United States."
So the question remains, who would benefit if the public was disarmed? Power hungry politicians for one. But by all means let your lack of facts and emotions continue to guide you.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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No. he knows what MOA is but aparently does not know what MOH is.
Nah, just disappointed that a discussion about accuracy took a turn towards puerile military fanboy fantasy land where the only thing that matters is hitting a man-sized target as quickly as possible.
Want so practice shooting people? Join the military. Other than that, it's got no place in a polite society.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Aug 28, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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Just an opinion, but anyone shooting a 22lr at man-size targets is just doing it wrong. Its a can-size round. Its the go-to fun round to shoot, good for things like rabbits, cans, and paper. Hell, if I had more time I,d go plink a hundred rounds or so just for the hell of it.
But alas, I have to help watch my daughter after work since the prego girlfriend is on reduced activity, and the daughter,s not old enough to learn gun stuff yet. Same reason I,m not climbing much these days btw.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 28, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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A Harvard Study titled "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?" looks at figures for "intentional deaths" throughout continental Europe and juxtaposes them with the U.S. to show that more gun control does not necessarily lead to lower death rates or violent crime.
Because the findings so clearly demonstrate that more gun laws may in fact increase death rates, the study says that "the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths" is wrong.
For example, when the study shows numbers for Eastern European gun ownership and corresponding murder rates, it is readily apparent that less guns to do not mean less death. In Russia, where the rate of gun ownership is 4,000 per 100,000 inhabitants, the murder rate was 20.52 per 100,000 in 2002. That same year in Finland, where the rater of gun ownership is exceedingly higher--39,000 per 100,000--the murder rate was almost nill, at 1.98 per 100,000.
Looking at Western Europe, the study shows that Norway "has far and away Western Europe's highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate."
And when the study focuses on intentional deaths by looking at the U.S. vs Continental Europe, the findings are no less revealing. The U.S., which is so often labeled as the most violent nation in the world by gun control proponents, comes in 7th--behind Russia, Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine--in murders. America also only ranks 22nd in suicides.
The murder rate in Russia, where handguns are banned, is 30.6; the rate in the U.S. is 7.8.
The authors of the study conclude that the burden of proof rests on those who claim more guns equal more death and violent crime; such proponents should "at the very least [be able] to show a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that impose stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide)." But after intense study the authors conclude "those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared around the world."
In fact, the numbers presented in the Harvard study support the contention that among the nations studied, those with more gun control tend toward higher death rates.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 29, 2013 - 12:52am PT
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jghedge... U need a hug
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:16am PT
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If Canada allowed handguns with barrels 2cm shorter than is now legal(but legal in the US), etc... would we have the same crime rate as in the US?
Would our crime rate go up if we adopted the US gun laws? Everyone that grew up with guns on the farm would then go use those guns for crime? Or would you propose that they would go buy the newly-legal guns and commit crimes with them instead of the ones they already have? Why would a different law cause my neighbors to decide to shoot someone? They all have guns already, but they don't act like Americans.
(the difference between the glock I shoot in the US and the one I shoot in Canada is the Canadian one has a little bit of extra barrel sticking out of the end of the gun. The difference between the AR is a pin in the magazine that keeps falling out. The difference between shotguns is nothing. The difference between Rem 700's is nothing, the difference between ammo is that I get it much cheaper and thousands of rounds in a crate for $200 that you can't get because Clinton banned it etc etc)
The Hells Angels were the last ones to shoot guns in town 3 years ago. Do you think they would do it more if they could have pistols with shorter barrels? (They already used prohibited stolen weapons)
So if adopting American laws in Canada will not make us act like Americans,
how are you so sure that adopting Canadian laws in the US will make Americans act like Canadians?
Right now you have to fill out a form to say that you aren't a felon, then they do a background check. For some purchases.
If the check doesn't match what you say, it is a felony. They don't enforce it, they just deny the purchase. Why? Because they don't have the current manpower to do anything about it they say. For the 13 instances it happened last year.
But your solution is to add more paperwork, licensing, etc? You don't enforce 13 incidences as it is....
There is a difference between idealism and reality, and jhedge is definitely living in a dream world. Drool at our lifestyle, rules, society all you want. But you will not ever re-create our crime rates with a million new copy-cat laws. Your country is full of Americans and Mexicans and you cannot change that. I'd fully agree with you if America were full of people raised in a different country with a different history and if I hadn't lived there so long and seen the difference. I challenge you, go spend a decade living in one of these countries you so earnestly try to say you are so much like... then re-visit your arguments.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:27am PT
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First off, it's not a "Harvard Study" - the JLPP is a student-run conservative opinion 'journal', not a Harvard peer-reviewed research journal. And Kate and Mauser have no affiliation with Harvard of any kind. Mauser is with the libertarian Fraser Institute and Kates is an ex-Liberal-turned-libertarian who long-ago lost all bearings. Both have been on an anti-gun control rant for a long time and their tracts endlessly debunked.
If you want something from Harvard where they aren't simply talking out their asses and torturing data then I'd suggest look more in the direction of Harvard's School of Public Health and it's research and publications. Or hell, there are plenty of gems like this 2004 study where they simply followed the deaths (Medical Examiner reports) and guns (ATF):
From gunstore to smoking gun: tracking guns that kill children in North Carolina
Author: Campbell BT / Radisch DL / Phillips JD / von Allmen D
Journal of Pediatric Surgery
The authors examined the incidence of firearm deaths among all children younger than 14 years in North Carolina from January 1999 through December 2002 and estimated the time between the guns’ retail sale and their involvement in the children’s deaths, using Medical Examiner case reports and tracing data from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. They found that forty children died from firearm injuries, with a mean age of 7.6 years. Handguns were responsible for the majority of deaths (59%), followed by shotguns (27%). Most deaths were homicides (67%). Most of the guns were legally purchased (76%). Many were used in crime within 3 years of their retail sale (40%).
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:43am PT
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Maybe I missed the 'bias' involved with matching gun deaths of children with the associated gun sales and simply reporting the results. Those would be facts rather than bias. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of bias about on the topic, but there would be a lot more facts if it weren't for the NRA's data obfuscations and research funding obstructions.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 29, 2013 - 01:51am PT
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but there would be a lot more facts if if weren't for the NRA's data obfuscations and research funding obstructions.
So true. I like to argue way out in the boundaries of extremes to explore all the points, but it is sad when that becomes a mantra and the truth can never surface - let alone an effective path out of the mess.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Aug 29, 2013 - 08:44am PT
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So now we're badmouthing a paper because we don't like the source? I thought only the conservatives did that over in the climate change thread?
yawn
Oops... I meant we're badmouthing it because we don't like the message. My bad.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Aug 30, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
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the manufacturers prolly wont make 22 being under the stress/pressure/profit making billions of rounds of higher caliber ordered by the govt.
so getcha something that fires .223 rounds
EDIT: oops, sorry, I didn't see that this thread had already devolved into a rabid ideological/political free-for-all, my bad
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