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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Long/Gaines book; Gumby, the cordelette is still a viable option in this book. What they hammer is the cordelette with unequal legs. The more imbalance in the leg length, the worse the loading imbalance. Having unequal legs screws up load equalizing in all the setups tested, but it was way worse with the cordelette. OK...I'm just babbling about the testing results presented in the book not real world. I found a video by Seattle Mountaineers of someone setting up a trad anchor; basically going through the motions of doing 2 pitches. They used the cordelette setup as the anchor (the video is a year old).
DMT What I'd like to know is with a series of clove hitched pieces, is this with some cord? or is it directly tied into the climbing rope? I'm thinking it's with cord but hell if I can visualize it. It seems like the old timers (same age as me but been climbing for much of their life) use the clove hitch bomber piece method (cause I don't know what else to call it). What I've been told by friends (who don't live close by) is that the primary goal is to climb fast and not spend lots of time rigging stuff (sounds like DMT) unless necessary (ie lack of bomber pieces).
I"ve coughed up for a class here an there but I can't afford it. So I've done exactly what Gumby has done, build this stuff at the crags, at home, just about anywhere for practice while trying to be safe about it. I've noticed that NONE of them truly equalize if the direction of load shifts much at all.
Either way, I've got to give IM A GUMBY dagnabbit kudos for giving this stuff such a solid effort.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Gumby, was it like 3 clove hitches and a figure 8 with the belay off the shelf of the figure 8?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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DMT.... I ask same question all the time... why equilize? are the pieces that s*ity? If they are, and you need to belay right there... something is wrong. Look for a better place.
And Ron... me to, I use the rope, some clove hitches and some times the slings I always carry....
And to Gumby I say this, speed is safe, if it takes you 5 min to set up each anchor on a ten pitch climb, it most likley takes you 5 min to break it down.... so thats 100 min!!!!! Of not moving.
Think about that for a second......
ABTW... I have watched people spend 10+ min screwing around at a bolted anchor.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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Gumby, was it like 3 clove hitches and a figure 8 with the belay off the shelf of the figure 8? i'm not sure, and I can't quite figure out how the third piece fit in to the equation. it was fast and i was lead belaying at the time as she was working out the roof section.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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If you're not going to equalize them, why bother putting in more than one??
I've been wondering for awhile now, how are you around tools in general? Are you a skilled tool user? Wood tools? Metal tools? Much life experience in these areas would you say?
Many here have grown up with a saw and hammer in their hands. It helps.
I probably wouldn't climb, particularly wouldn't lead trad, if I wasn't really comfortable around rotary saws, high voltage, etc.. From a lifetime of life experience with tools and assorted materials.
Back in high school, were you more inclined to woodshop and metal shop or to choir and drama and home ec? It's probably relevant here.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Well, since either method can be fast and efficient, then the reason for an equalette is when you expect the direction of loading to vary. Learn how to set up both quickly, then you can choose at the moment.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Gumby, I've been trying to figure this same friggen thing out. If I'm wasting energy hanging by my fingertips trying to rig something fancy up...not good. BUT putting in some good pieces and popping clove hitches in them seems much quicker and as good. More than one bomber piece equals redundancy in my mind. Anyway, me talking is like the blind trying to show the sighted the way.....but that's the way I am looking at it now.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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I've been wondering for awhile now, how are you around tools in general? Are you a skilled tool user? Wood tools? Metal tools? Much life experience in these areas would you say?
Many here have grown up with a saw and hammer in their hands. It helps. yes i am good with tools, (especially knives and forks) and i got smarts, but it has never been my job. i knew the answer to my question before i asked it. the point is - three pieces equalized is safer than three pieces not equalized. so why not shoot for that if you can do it quickly. in the real world good enough is probably all that can be attained, but i'm practicing in my bedroom and i have a tradition of excellence to live up to there. ;) in short, i want to make my 'good enough' better than it currently is.
for me, the equalette is quicker than the cordelette. however, when practicing it i noticed that two of the pieces weren't equalizing if they weren't all in the same plane. adding the sling with a sliding x fixed this. now if i had to go through all that and figure it out through trial and error while on a belay it would be very time consuming, but if i placed the pieces and recognized it right away i could do it very quickly.
I probably wouldn't climb, particularly wouldn't lead trad, if I wasn't really comfortable around rotary saws, high voltage, etc.. From a lifetime of life experience with tools and assorted materials. ????
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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And, just for argument sake...
What are the odds you and your partner are going to FF2?
Low.
However, such a fall is almost exclusively going to happen at the anchor. Now consider strength ratings of your pro- those are under idealistic conditions/placements. So the questin i,m leading to- Do you want to risk putting that kind of force on a single piece, or series of single pieces in succession? Pieces that may pull at less than rated strength?
THAT'S why you equalize. Maybe you wont be spot-on perfect, but if you get close enough to spread the load, say, 60-25-15 then you,re that much better off than 100%, or a succession of 100-100-100.
Once you get pieces in above the belay, each on adds more rope and reduces length of the fall and thus energy, so its far more likely that those single pieces will hold.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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I can roll a joint in the time it takes most 'fast' people to cordelette an anchor to death.
5 minutes? Yes, in the garage maybe.
DMT we should climb, and we'll both have something to do..
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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yes i am good with tools
Good. It's also good to run through the textbook examples, don't get me wrong, and to know the theory. But I also bet down the road, your thinking and your systems based on experience will evolve and what dmt says, for instance, will be clearer. My two cents.
????
The point of the last quote is that climbing is dangerous, w safety obviously very dependent on mechanical, material and tool savvy, and if I wasn't really comfortable with mechanical thingamajigs, structural stuff in high places, etc. - I'd probably think twice about partaking in such potentially perilous activity, particularly at a higher level.
I think we both know, human nature what it is, we have the Werners and the Gilligans in the world, so there really shouldn't be any confusion on this point, I don't think. Glad to hear youre positioned more toward a Werner than a Gilligan.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Remember too, it only has to self equalize if your direction of loading is gona change. Probly 90 percent of jhe time at least, it wont. Thats why just plain old pre-equalized works just fine.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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^^not true when the arms are different length, which is almost always.
from the book you lent me. ;)
Not only is equalization very poor, but the degree of equalization varies wildly from fall to fall. This configuration is very unpredictable, except that the difference in forces generated from a fall (to each arm) will be high. The cordelette unequal length is simply to be avoided.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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remedial reading for me, eh? oops.
due to the inherent stretch that exists even in static cord. Doesnt realy matter whether its the rope, webbing, or cord.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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here is the 1st belay i brought you up on at eagle buttress.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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my first thought was 'damn, that looks like my rope.' then i realized it was.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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yeah, and the pic shd be rotated clockwise.
two left pieces cloved in, pre-equalized.
any chance you caught a pic of the top anchor? i didnt.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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you do know your in far more danger from an unroped downclimb than from one of these multi-piece anchors failing, right?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
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unroped downclimb? who would do such a thing?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
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KISS
just the one nut is all you need
climbed up a ways at pie shop this evening. but i didn't know what was above and it was starting to get dark, so i left a nut and biner behind and rapped down. i think it was on the slot so you're welcome to the booty. warning though, the biner was also booty that i found on the ledge below, so it probably fell down from above to get there.
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