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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 9, 2013 - 02:56am PT
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I've only been climbing a year, but get out about 5 times a week and 2 or 3 of those days are with my daughters and much of the rest of the time is with people less experienced than me. The end result is that I get very little mentoring, much less than i need. As such I thought I would start taking pictures of anchors and otherwise documenting questionable decisions and then posting here to keep up with the learning process. It can probably help others as well.
Today's questionable anchor.
Decent bolts with locking biners > 20' of webbing tied with figure 8 > 48" sling doubled over webbing > 36" sling doubled over that > two quickdraws > rope. I also placed a cam in a crack as we were climbing on an arete and if the system moved left in the pic during a fall there would have been a swing bouncing through a chimney and then into a wall
my concerns
1. sling directly to webbing instead of connecting with 'biner. wasn't too concerned since there would be no movement of the slings through the webbing.
2. Figure 8 instead of water knot with webbing. Is that a big deal??
3. Should have done an overhand knot with the webbing in case one of the bolts went (just thought of this looking at the pic).
4. The two slings to extend to the edge provided no redundancy. This is my biggest concern since there were two pieces that could have failed catastrophically. Not sure how to compare this to simply elongating the 48" sling since there would then be twice as much force on it (or am I doing the wrong math?)
It occurs to me now I could have elongated the 48" and backed it up with the 36" and a doubled 24".
What's your take?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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my take?
YOUR GONNA DIE!
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 03:22am PT
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not trolling at all.
this is my daughter hanging from it. i don't want to kill her (or anyone else)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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1 & 2 don't matter
3 & 4 non-redundant, as you already figured out.
Also, since the cam sling does not clip into the main slings (just clips over them), it doesn't back up the bolts. It only prevents the main slings from moving left. It sounds like that was your goal, though.
Next time, bring more slings/webbing.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 03:42am PT
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Thanks!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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If you find yourself setting up TR anchors like this a lot, you'd be wise to invest in a couple pieces of low-stretch rope that you can simply throw a figure-8 in and clip to a biner at the bolt and then another figure-8 with opposite/opposing biners (like you did) at the climbing rope. It's simple, durable, easily adjustable and much safer than what you have set up. Or you could just bring a couple of decent sized cordalettes.
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ruppell
climber
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I'm with Biotch on this one. Horrible set up for what's in the photo. Has to be a troll. If knot buy a book on anchors and read it. Twice.
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Edwardmw
climber
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I notice some problem's here, I will mention a few.
Check the attached images. I have circled some problem areas
In 1&2 the carabiners are resting sideways on the edge of the cliff, half way over the edge, they are not orientated properly, and strength is diminished.
3) Why not tie an overhand figure 8 instead of looping webbing through webbing?
4) This is simply a directional and does not reinforce your anchor
5) You use a single non locking carabiner with the gate facing the cliff. Hard to see for sure, but in the second image below, the one where you can see the top rope, looks like a single biner with the gate facing the cliff.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I'll bite.
I'd definitely just buy a long cordalette or piece of static rope for building anchors that need to extend off the edge. You should also invest in a few locking biners.
Things I'd improve: (top down)
Yes, water knot is the standard BTW. Ditch the fig 8.
The blue sling attached at the bolts has no limiter knots or half twist which means a break in the webbing or bolt failure (unlikely as it is) would mean catastrophic failure of everything else.
Generally I consider webbing on webbing bad but I'm assuming you were suffering from a biner shortage on this outing.
Purple slings. Problem: No redundancy. Anytime you loop a piece like that without a limiter knot any break in the webbing = anchor failure. It would have been better to extend the two full length and attach them with doubled/opposed/locking biners if you had them. If you are linking webbing to webbing to extend an anchor I prefer lockers or multiple opposed non-lockers since it's out of sight from the ground.
The cam could have been an active piece in the anchor and added needed redundancy had you clipped it directly to the biners. (Some people don't like biner on biner BTW) . In this case it looks like you actually could have extended the sling and clipped it directly to the climbing rope as a backup and directional (better).
The two quick-draws at the lip are funky but actually redundant. It would have been better to use longer slings over the lip.
Finally:I'd like to see at least one locking biner where the climbing rope attaches. The general rule is two opposed lockers or three opposed non lockers.
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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If you are TR-ing alot i would do like others suggest and get some 7mm cord and rig a "quad" ...bomber for two bolt anchors and it will accept some multi-directional pull....
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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I don't like nylon on nylon, myself.
I would extend the power point.
I have started carrying a length of static line for building anchors.
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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Quads are awesome for bolted TRin, you can read about them in CLimbing Anchors By long and Gaines, and even if not in a quad you should get a cordalette, IMO.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Asking for mentoring from a website has some inherent problems. You get a spectrum of information from people with varying degrees of experience and various perspectives on safety. Also, there usually isn't any grading of the responses, meaning that what some people would consider a small detail gets as much weight as what some would consider a major no-no. And pictures can be difficult to interpret, leading to advice that may not be relevant to the actual setup.
Since you don't want to kill yourself or those you are responsible for, you really need to spend a day or several days with an expert. I think that nowadays that means a certified guide.
Most of the potential problems have been identified. I'll try to offer some commentary.
(1) Carabiners resting on the edge or part way over the edge. This is a potentially fatal configuration that absolutely has to be avoided, so is certainly worth mentioning. But when I look at the picture I don't think it is happening in your anchor. Still, it is a critical concern. If bolts have been placed in such a way that carabiners clipped to them rest on an edge, then the bolter had no idea what they were doing, and I'd be worried about the integrity of the entire set-up, since you have direct evidence of incompetence.
(2) In the service of keeping your daughters alive and you from a lifetime of regret, I'm going to be harsh here. Certainly the worst feature of your set-up is the sling connection that results in total failure if one of the bolts fails. That can't be some kind of afterthought, as in, "gee, I just noticed in the photo..." That is a serious and, I'd say, irresponsible mistake. The fact that you completely undid all the redundancy intended by the two-bolt placement and then worried about directionals indicates mental processes that need major recalibration. No muli-piece anchor should ever fail totally if one part of it fails, that is about as basic an anchor-building tenet as there is. If you haven't learned that, and it doesn't seem that you have, then you shouldn't be building top-rope anchors until you get some more instruction.
A year ago, in one of the most horrific accidents I've encountered in more than a half-century of climbing, a young woman trying climbing for the very first time was killed when she leaned back on her top-rope and the entire anchor rigging fell down. No one knows exactly how that anchor was constructed, but you've set up an example that could produce an analogous result.
(3) Knots. I don't know what you mean by a figure-eight knot, it isn't a term used for knots joining two ends. The most likely guess is that you used a Flemish Bend, which is adequate but not standard. Although a water knot is standard, its use for slings intended for top-roping is not the best idea. Water knots in webbing subjected to repeated loading and unloading are subject to end creep, which is to say that the ends slowly move back into the knot. You have to make sure you have relatively long ends, and you have to check your slings every time you use them to make sure the knots are not in danger of untying because the ends have crept in. A far better, although uglier, knot to use is the double fisherman's bend. As an added bonus (of relatively little importance) it is a stronger knot than the ring bend. A potential drawback (of almost no consequence) is that you'll probably never be able to untie a double fisherman's after it has been loaded multiple times.
(4) Directionals. Good thinking but terrible execution. Don't ever place a piece and then not have it contribute to the load-bearing capacity of the anchor. In your case, a sling of appropriate length should have run from the directional cam to the power point.
(5) Carabiners. In a top rope anchor, it makes sense for every carabiner to be either a locker or a pair of non-lockers with gates opposed. It is a little hard for me to grade this one, considering that back in the day no one carried a bunch of lockers and all anchors, including complex big-wall ones, were constructed with ordinary biners. But top-rope anchors are unattended, and small unanticipated motions could open gates, weakening the system. As for the primary power point, I've certainly use a pair of opposed non-lockers and not worried about it, but opposed lockers or tripled non-lockers are a bit safer, especially if the power point contacts the rock.
(6) Lateral rope motions. This isn't always a problem, but if it is one there is a danger of cutting through the anchor rigging or the climbing rope if the system is sawing back and forth over an edge because of rope motions from the climber. This means that you have to come prepared to pad edges to protect rigging. In some cases, by far the best solution is to place a piece over the edge, on the main face, with the rigging set up so that the power point loads this piece and the rest of the anchor backs it up. The point is to prevent any back-and-forth sawing motions over the edge. Note that your directional fails to do this, since it leaves a portion of sling below the directional carabiner to rub back and forth as the powerpoint moves. This is one of the reasons why a direct sling from your directional to the power point would have been better.
(7) Gear. You don't seem to have enough. Probably a good length of static rope is the way to go for rigging top-rope anchors.
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WBraun
climber
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For top roping get a 30 foot piece of 8 or 9mm rope to extend anchors over a lip.
Forget all those extra slings and biners chained together.
One piece of rope instead of all those individual links chained together .....
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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wow! lots of replies while i slept. thanks again. to answer some concerns.
edwardmw,
the biners at the bolts are fine, not resting on the side of a cliff, and they are orientated properly.
at the other end, there are two opposed biners. the rest of your stuff is correct.
cordalette is to be one of my next purchases.
i know nylon running through nylon is very bad, but have read that in static situations it is ok. someone mentioned girth hitches, there were none. my understanding is that knots in slings create weak points so i was trying to avoid that in this case.
point taken regarding the directional. i originally had the biner through the rope but was having a hard time envisioning what would happen if things started to creep away and the connections became separated from each other. then i thought of clipping it to one the dogbones on the draws and thought that could make things twist.
i do have an extra rope i've semi retired since it's been cut down to 50m. is dynamic ok, or does it have to be static as someone mentioned above?
and thanks, this is what i was looking for. even (or especialy) the harsh criticisms
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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In fact using two bolts in this way is actually worse than using a single bolt, since it doubles the probability of failure due to a damaged/incorrectly placed bolt. isn't this 6 in one, half dozen in the other? half as much chance since the forces are split in half (or almost in this case) but twice as much since either could fail versus full weight on one bolt with a 50% chance that i chose the right one?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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A high stretch rope can work but you will often wind up with big TR falls and your anchor points a lot lower than you intended after the stretch. Just buy some low stretch off a spool at a climbing store. 2x 10 meter lengths will handle most situations but you can go longer if you want.
As for avoiding knots, that is a smart move in theory but in practice you aren't generating enough force on a top rope to have to worry about that. What that thinking lead you to do is thread your blue anchor webbing through your purple/white sling in such a way that it is creating the exact kind of nylon-nylon friction that you want to avoid. Additionally, you completely eliminated any redundancy in your anchor because if either bolt blows, biner fails, webbing breaks or knot unties on that blue webbing section your whole anchor fails.
All in all a fairly unsafe anchor. If I found my daughter TRing on it I would have words with its builder.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I understand the the Top-Rope Guide course is teaching guides to use a 100 ft of static 10.5 mm rope to set up all Top rope situations.
I followed this advice and have been enjoying fast and solid set-ups since I started doing this.
Simplicity.
As 10b4me mentioned, I avoid nylon on nylon connections. In my mind that is a weak point. I've not heard of pull tests done on these but it would be very interesting to see.
PS> Get yourself a better name and avatar for this site and become one of us.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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All in all a fairly unsafe anchor. If I found my daughter TRing on it I would have words with its builder
yes. that's why i posted this here. i generally don't have any issues with the anchors i build as most are very straightforward. i had the idea for a thread like this after last week at kirkwood lake since i was building gear anchors though they were generally bomber compared to this, i just don't trust my gear placements yet. as soon as i built this, i knew i should take pictures for review (which in and of itself should have been a sign to rebuild it).
and whoa! what's wrong with my name and avatar????
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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isn't this 6 in one, half dozen in the other? half as much chance since the forces are split in half (or almost in this case) but twice as much since either could fail versus full weight on one bolt with a 50% chance that i chose the right one?
Definitely not. A TR anchor is generally about redundancy more than load sharing because you aren't generating high forces. If those bolts are good then your daughter will never generate enough force to make it fail so you are simply protecting against the possibility that there is something horribly, horribly wrong with one portion of the anchor or something insane happens like a rock falls on it and cuts it. If that event takes place you want the load shared in a way that you aren't dynamically loading the rest of your anchor.
tl;dr Buy this and read it: http://www.amazon.com/Climbing-Anchors-3rd-How-Climb/dp/0762782072/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376066504&sr=1-1&keywords=john+long+climbing+anchors
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Gumby I hope you read & reread whats above me.
Just the Maid - Wbraun - Rgold & really everyone up stream.
Years of experience & well said.
Climb-on.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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A length of rope is great for simplifying anchor building, but you only want to use static (low stretch) rope. Weighing and un-weighing a stretchy rope over an edge has killed climbers, it creates a sawing action, especially if there is a knot rubbing the rock.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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one last thing, if your anchor is set back from the edge aways, I like to use cordage, as it rolls over the rock surface. Flat webbing slides, hence it is more susceptible to abrasion.
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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I use Sterling SuperStatic2 7/16" rope for setting up topropes when the anchors are set back from the edge of the cliff. Figure 8 on one end, clove hitch on the other so you can make adjustments. Figure-8 on a bight or BFK (if your anal) for the master point. Replace all that stuff in your picture with some static cord and a handful of biners.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Gumby,
You have some really good responses. When I started climbing, we just made stuff up and tried not to die young.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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A length of rope is great for simplifying anchor building, but you only want to use static (low stretch) rope. Weighing and un-weighing a stretchy rope over an edge has killed climbers, it creates a sawing action, especially if there is a knot rubbing the rock.
Exactly. And what rgold (Rich Goldstone) said, too.
However, I prefer 1" webbing to static rope, as it is also static, and has more surface area over the edge, so it will not get coreshot like a dynamic rope will (and a static rope might also). Also lighter and less bulky.
Most of the time you will be fine with 4 oval biners and 4 thick/wide slings - you won't have to extend so far to the edge. So a 30' length of 1" webbing can stay in your pack most of the time, but will be handy when needed.
Invite a more experienced person along, and discuss the anchor while you build it. It will help get you the needed feedback. This time it didn't matter because the individual components of the anchor were so strong, and you handled the directional enough to do the job. The main thing missing was redundancy. The way we teach it is:
"imagine an evil elf can snip any one component of the anchor". There has to be a backup for everything. Most of the time no component will fail, but a weak component might sneak in, and the redundancy will greatly reduce the total risk.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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dmt raises a good point. Aware of its construction, I too would TR on it. Then again, as a set-up for multiple TRs where kids are involved over time, over much of a lazy afternoon, say, it doesn't meet the passing grade. Also, it seems to me, the more novice or gumby the crowd, the MORE it fails to meet a passing grade, and the MORE it is essential to get the basics right ala KISS, etc..
Sorry for thinking this might be a troll. (But around here sometimes it happens.)
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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Thanks everyone! Lots of good info here. I know the interwebz may not be the best place to get this type of info but I am pretty good at parsing out whats good and whats not, as well as who I should listen to more than others (not saying there's anyone in this thread I shouldn't listen to).
imagine an evil elf can snip any one component of the anchor That's probably the best way to look at it. After all, I have no idea what goes into the construction of dyneema, so trusting my kids' lives to any one piece of it should be more difficult than it is. After a late start, the drive, the hike, and a phukn ugly scramble I wanted to make sure we got some climbing in so I was guilty of settling for 'good enough' when I should have taken more time to think everything through and get it bomber.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Unfortunately, most of the climbing accidents in my memory all fall into the joint category of a relatively minor lapse meeting up with a low probability event.
We cannot do much to change the low probability events, but our loved ones will always mourn the tragedies of our minor lapses.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Aug 13, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
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Hi Gumby,
I wrote a book called Toproping that came out last year featuring what I call the "Joshua Tree System" for rigging topropes.
I use low-stretch (not static) rope for my rigging rope. There is a difference between low-stretch and static.
The Joshua Tree System is a basic "V" configuration rigging method for setting up topropes using a length of low-stretch rope and a BHK knot at the master point.
Myself and my colleagues have used this method for many years in my climbing school. I also teach it in the curriculum for the AMGA Single Pitch Instructor Course, along with another system known as the "Fox System."
The book Toproping is currently the recommended text for the AMGA SPI Course. I'm working on a new textbook for the AMGA SPI Course that will be out in 2014.
You can pick up a copy of Toproping pretty cheap on amazon. It might be more useful to you than Climbing Anchors, although I'd read them both!
Cheers,
Bob Gaines
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 13, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
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Hey gumby. Listen to BG. You couldn't ask for a better mentor.. Internet or real world.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Aug 13, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Aug 14, 2013 - 12:51am PT
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 02:09am PT
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Thanks for the ideas. What's going on in the last one? Looks like a clove or munter hitch up top and then i don't know what the rope does above it. At the master point it looks like it's connected to i don't know, a canteen? Are you sure that isn't one of my anchors? ;)
Just kidding, seriously thanks for the help.
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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Aug 14, 2013 - 08:40am PT
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top is a clove hitch so you can make adjustments
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Aug 14, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
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At the master point it looks like it's connected to i don't know, a canteen?
that's an edge protector, so the rigging rope won't fray
petzl makes a nice one
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
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but a canteen would work too right? ;)
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Aug 14, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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I like your sense of humor Gumby! And you have an excellent tolerance for the flamers. I would climb with you anytime.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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so i've been doing a lot of soloing lately, with two different methods (both ghetto, i'm afraid). here's one, with a mouthful of rope on top rope
i'm pushing up the prusik holding the rope back with my mouth.
That's
Method 1. Either looping a prusik around both ropes and working it up ahead of me. Usually with the ropes also going through the ATC (and gear placed below me so if I fall somehow the atc will catch on it, and pop them out). Or with one end of the rope anchored and the prusik only around the other, again pushing it ahead of me.
Method 2. Attach 2 slings to harness. Go up, place gear (or use bolts), attach to one sling, go up, attach second sling to gear or bolt, remove lower sling. Lather rinse repeat. If it's all gear rather than bolts I generally clove hitch the rope to a third piece so when i remove the lower piece I still have two points. i also use the clove hitch whenever it gets a little runout and the slings won't reach between two placements.
I originally did this just girth hitching the slings to the harness but got stuck in between two placements once where I couldn't reach the lower placement to clean the gear and was super sketched removing the upper placement to downclimb. now i use lockers so I can just drop the lower placement if I need to. Slings I have plenty of.
Today I was using method #1 (first pic) and noticed my rope (dynamic obviously) bouncing over a ledge repeatedly and this thread came to mind.
A length of rope is great for simplifying anchor building, but you only want to use static (low stretch) rope. Weighing and un-weighing a stretchy rope over an edge has killed climbers, it creates a sawing action, especially if there is a knot rubbing the rock. I climbed back down.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 21, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
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sounds like fun. if you want to continue yer 2nd method of gear placement protection, you might consider making cowstails for the purpose out of dynamic rope- just consider that every fall you take is likely harsh, possibly ff2, and if you,ve ever seen video of pieces zippering, well...
also, that limits the routes to things that have good pro at least every 5ft or so unless you have a ton of gear to leave behind along with slings... er... dynamic cowtails. maybe better to stick with method one. but thats just conjecture and supposition.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Oct 21, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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both ghetto, i'm afraid
why? when there are tried and true methods for pennies per pitch.
research the rope solo threads on this site, they cover the topic well, there's a great picture of using a couple traxions, copy this setup.
have fun
if you use your method 1 in "ghetto" style, first use two prussiks, one for backup; second, ditch the atc (how unwieldy); third, weight the rope with a few pounds, spare the teeth in the event of a fall, rope stretch, and forgetting to unbite, lol!
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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you might consider making cowstails for the purpose out of dynamic rope- just consider that every fall you take is likely harsh, possibly ff2, and if you,ve ever seen video of pieces zippering, well... good idea, and i do have a recently retired rope sitting around.
if you use your method 1 in "ghetto" style, first use two prussiks, one for backup; second, ditch the atc (how unwieldy); third, weight the rope with a few pounds, spare the teeth in the event of a fall, rope stretch, and forgetting to unbite, lol! i generally do weight the bottom. for the climb in the picture the bottom was anchored in the crack so i wouldn't go for the huge swing. there was enough slack (especially after rope stretch) that i found the need to bite the rope to push up the prusik.
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Nemesis
climber
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Oct 21, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
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If the title to this thread isn't a recipe for disaster I don't know what is!
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
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Come to Tahoe and climb with me so i don't die!
juz sayin'
;)
and now i'm ready to go die safely
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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no, if it's a cowtail out of a single dynamic, then something like a figure 8 loop that you can girth to the harness and a barrel knot on the other end on a locker. you'll find a much better description on the caver's websites. All doubled up like that won't absorb as much energy as a single line would. But again, I say you're better to use the WHOLE rope leading up in a traditional fashion with some of the other, better methods recommended by better climbers than me.
ah yeah, and if yer in Tahoe, i'm in carson. noobs leadin noobs is kinda what it'd be, but between us we might live a bit longer. my problem is always finding time, but yer welcome to join me.
Maybe I misunderstood your second method... the rope is fixed to an anchor below and you're leading on it by backcleaning and leapfrogging gear? How many pieces between you and the ground?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:45am PT
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Hey gumby. Listen to BG. You couldn't ask for a better mentor.. Internet or real world.
Agreed, except there really isn't much difference between low stretch and "static" climbing ropes. All nylon ropes stretch to some extent, depending on their weave.
Curt
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 01:46am PT
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looking at it i had thought about that (sort of). what i came up with was a loose overhand knot on each end which would make it a little less messy and would add some extra elasticity as the knots tightened during a fall.
i don't think i could girth hitch two of these (the rope is 11mm) to my harness loop plus have the rope through the other loops as well as my PAS.
and just saw the rest of your post. yes i'm backcleaning and leap frogging. no the rope is not anchored at the bottom. just taking it up to rappel down. and it is handy to have so i can pull out whatever amount i need and clove hitch it to a piece in order to go down and backclean a section or go up a runout section longer than my slings. there are generally two pieces in. three if i'm scared and occasionally just one if i'm in an easier section.
and are you in carson ca, or carson city?
i can make up for your lack of availability with my always available status until it snows.
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lubbockclimber
Trad climber
lubbock,tx
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Oct 22, 2013 - 05:12am PT
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The method described for soloing! You stop that, you stop right now. And go read a physics book. Never fall on slings and use that rope for more than backcleaning. Falls onto static slings with a ff2 fall right on your gear. Dude I really mean it yer gunna die!
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 22, 2013 - 09:02am PT
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I,m in Carson City. Had no idea there was the other. Learn somethin new all the time eh?
Some of the advice people are offering here is really good, and ultimately you,re going to have to decide whats safe for you, but i think most folk here would like to see ya quit that leapfrog method. If its just a not-enough-gear issue, i bet that could be remedied.
I,ll be around this weekend, and though we,ll have company i can probably sneak out for a bit. At the least, i can loan you some books that are pretty damn good.
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 09:25am PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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neversummer,
what's going on with your first picture?
It looks like you got a cordelette / ropette with one strand left out?
Is this how they're doing it now?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:59am PT
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i'm pushing up the prusik holding the rope back with my mouth.
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wivanoff
Trad climber
CT
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Oct 22, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
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It looks like you got a cordelette / ropette with one strand left out?
Google "climbing anchor quad"
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
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"QUAD"....ive been using this for TR solo...gives me multi-directional at the anchor so i can play all over the face without re-rigging my top anchor.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
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neversummer's first photo above is a death rig.
3 guys got the chop on the nose when they rigged their anchor like that ......
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
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Hey OP, have you climbed the route that you took your name from?
Eagle Lake Buttress is a great spot!
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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Agreed. That anchor has the same problem as the OP's first pic. The entire anchor fails if one bolt fails.
please explain...
if one of those bolts blows out im gonna get some extension thats about it...
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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If one bolt fails in neversummer's anchor the biners are still inside the knot at the anchor point. that is why one strand is not clipped.
right?
Hey OP, have you climbed the route that you took your name from? Nope. This is my first time hearing about the route, though I'm familiar with the buttress. Never climbed it though it's definitely on the list. Been to Eagle lake, Eagle creek, Mayhem, and I'm about to head out the door to tempt fate at 90' now.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
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Actually i believe the one loop being left out causes redundancy (the biners would catch on the knot), allthough it will still shockload one bolt if the other should fail. Best just to tie a single master point to avoid that scenario.
Except with dyneema slings.
http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
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Sorry, it initially looked as though the carabiners were over all of the strands between the two bolts--and that they would simply slip off the anchor altogether if one of the bolts failed. I can see now that's not the case. I deleted my previous post.
Curt
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DataMind
Social climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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Putting a twist in the 3rd strand and clipping thru it along with the other will allow for equalization of the rig up to the knots so the OP can move around on the face. All in all that rig ain't gonna fail.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
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In Neversummer's quad pic, the only downside I see is if there is a wear point on the cord under the two overhands.
Werner is that the scenario you are thinking of?
It occurs to me that a knot closer to the biners in a traditional equalized anchor keeps the end loop that the biners are clipped to, away from the surface of the rock in many cases. Also the biners will do that too if set up correctly.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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The strand left out is intended to restore redundancy and avoid a single failure scenario. Provided that failure is not at one of the knots.
The rig is not as simple as it could be. When you are looking at several layers of connections to those bolts, complexity increases the chance of a misread of the dangers in one of the layers. An assumption as to where the failure may occur is not so apparent.
I wonder if, in the hope of one's making a new contribution to the universe, are we not making complexity a goal?
If so, it is a very bad goal.
The last few decades have featured quite a few such.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Oct 22, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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I'm A Gumby Dammit 5.9
This route goes up the overhanging crack just to the right of A Line. Belay at the base of a clean corner. Climb to the top of the corner, then move across to a ramp and up a thin crack to the top.
From the Carville guide.
It's a great place to spend a day, go get it!
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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Sh#t, you all finally got my attention. I admit I'm a 56 year old total card carrying noooob when it comes to this rigging stuff. But Neversummer's quad rig comes HIGHLY recommended for top roping (the Long/Gaines book on anchors). There are 2 bolts (assuming they are both checked out first) for redundancy, the limiter knots keep extension to a minimum if one bolt fails, and the knots also add redundancy to the rope strands (like tying the knot in the equalette). I'm not seeing the problem IF you checked the bolts. I've never thought about using this as an anchor in trad (minimum 3 points), but as an easy to pre-rig or on the spot rig for toprope it seems solid to me. So....and I been around here long enough to know what this site can be like...I am hoping for some clarification on this. Eager to learn; Supertopo, be my mentor. And yea...we're all going to die. But I'm hoping to put it off for a couple more years.
So Werner...what happened that gives you such a bad impression of this rigging?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
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i did not die again today. couple of easy lines at 90'
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
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hard to tell but it looks like she has a scar from open heart surgery
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 22, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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try anything different today?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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not really. used the slings i made from the 11mm rope instead of the dyneema. The large ones in this pic, but with a loose overhand knot on each end.
and i used the rope clove hitched to a piece almost the entire way this time. it is very time consuming. holdless horror, which takes me like 3 minutes on top rope and 10 or so leading, took like 45 minutes.
it's
partially the fear.
partially finding 3 placements for each move rather than 1.
partially the thought process that goes into making sure you can reach down to clean.
partially the actual time to backclean.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
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The initial pic is a a disaster, and you should buy John Longs book on Anchors. That rig needs to be extended down a couple feet, the double biners should be lower.
And STOP with the daisy-chaining of anchor slins, USE ONE! A cordelette of 8-9mm or Nylon slingage would be better.
If you TR a lot, just rig a 20-30FT piece together with a DOuble-Fisherman's, and that 's your go-to anchor equalizer. The DF is hard to untie, but when ties right is ultra-bomber. Just make it part of your TR gear. They last a while for TR'ing.
And the bolt-spacing of that anchor is conducive to a 'Sliding X', but you can also tie a master point if the route doesn't wander too far left or right.
Inspect your gear for wear, the slings and cordelette. I've used sh#t for years with minimal abrasion, but I climb a lot on sandstone.
From the second pic posted, it's clear the double-biner focal point should be lower.
Minimize rope drag on the rock, the rope should be free-hanging to minimize wear on your primary line.
Have fun.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
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I wonder if, in the hope of one's making a new contribution to the universe, are we not making complexity a goal?
Jstan and Werner are the usual sages here. Do not over-think what has always worked in the past.
(I could make a political statement here too, but alas, I refrain...)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
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Nope ^^^^
i made my comment while talking to someone else about a car problem and didn't look at the photo long enough.
I just quickly glanced at it and got distracted thus my stupid earlier post.
I didn't see the "loop".
Looks OK but I wouldn't use that setup anyways ....
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 09:29pm PT
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It looks like if one bolt blows, the whole shebang is gone, including anybody attached. Under force, the biners will pull over the bizarre knots.
Maybe I'm not seeing the rigging right?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
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you're knot. the reason one loop is not included is so that if a bolt blows the biner is still stuck in between the two knots
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
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I was talking about Neverseen's rig, not yours.
Your rig still has too much daisy-chaining of slings going on. Way too complicated. Just carry a cordelette, that wraps up pretty nicely for leading and fixing an anchor.
You also appear to be daisy-chaining different materials/diameters together which is a no-no. Just go with one big rig for TRs, cool to back up with redundant dissimilar stuff, but just as back-up. The load-bearing stuff should be very simple and solid.
With 2 solid bolts, a sliding-x is bomber. Back it up as you wish.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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i was also talking about his. i know mine was shoddy. thus the thread.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
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Don't be cheap, buy a cordalette, retire when necessary and worn.
I use Double/Triple FIsherman's on mine because I never plan to untie them and it's a bomber knot that will never have to worry about length of tails.
Everybody's different, but that's how I roll.
Don't spare any expense on slings, they're pretty cheap, and VERY important.
CHeers!
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rnevius
Trad climber
The Range of Light
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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The quad is bomber. I'm pretty sure JL talks about it in his book. I clip two strands with one crab, and the other two with another. Great "equalization," fast to setup. It's what I use the majority of the time in a side-by-side bolt scenario.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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But don't you have to put a twist on one strand to create the 'X'?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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you don't need the twist, which creates the redundancy found in a more traditional anchor. The redundancy comes from clipping only three of the four strands of the quad.
and regarding my set-up, much has changed since i started the thread back in the beginning of August. I do have a cord and use it whenever it's called for. I have lots of slings. The setup I mentioned with slings made of rope is for a soloing technique I use, so that I am not falling directly onto slings, which is very bad (I was using slings but was set straight here and over on MP).
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
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You do a twist and clip for the sliding X. This orients the biners sideways instead of front-to-back as in neversummer's pic. It also weights all strands of the cordalette (which may or may not be important if it's only two strands as in a regular sliding x), but maintains effect of the limiting knots.
Other folks have disputed the actual effectiveness of the whole sliding X in terms of equalization in a fall, but I say "meh". Best to know how it's done, and how to pre-equalize a "standard" anchor. Whether you build it out of the rope, cordalette, or webbing, you should know the theory of both equalization and redundancy.
I'll loan you Long's book if you promise to return it. I have a bunch of PDF's I can throw on a disc from all over the web too. As to the amount of time using that leapfrog method, well... yeah, it sounds like a time-suck.
We make it to a crag at the same time, you can try a run on my Silent Partner for comparison. I still get sketched out, but without the extra clusterfluff. Well, wait... it's got its own mess, but maybe better than yours. Maybe worse. Won't know unless you try it out.
Fact is, you can get pretty good even with prusiks, so that for soloing you do a sort of traditional solo lead, rap, and ascend the rope, unless reclimbing the route is faster for you, and I bet it would be faster than what you've described. But again, I speculate. And i'm slow as molasses as a point of reference. ha!
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2013 - 12:00am PT
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fwiw, i don't use the quad. this thread is the first time i have seen it. i would certainly give long's book a read.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 12:19am PT
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You do a twist and clip for the sliding X. This orients the biners sideways instead of front-to-back as in neversummer's pic. It also weights all strands of the cordalette (which may or may not be important if it's only two strands as in a regular sliding x), but maintains effect of the limiting knots.
Other folks have disputed the actual effectiveness of the whole sliding X in terms of equalization in a fall, but I say "meh". Best to know how it's done, and how to pre-equalize a "standard" anchor. Whether you build it out of the rope, cordalette, or webbing, you should know the theory of both equalization and redundancy.
I'll loan you Long's book if you promise to return it. I have a bunch of PDF's I can throw on a disc from all over the web too. As to the amount of time using that leapfrog method, well... yeah, it sounds like a time-suck.
We make it to a crag at the same time, you can try a run on my Silent Partner for comparison. I still get sketched out, but without the extra clusterfluff. Well, wait... it's got its own mess, but maybe better than yours. Maybe worse. Won't know unless you try it out.
Fact is, you can get pretty good even with prusiks, so that for soloing you do a sort of traditional solo lead, rap, and ascend the rope, unless reclimbing the route is faster for you, and I bet it would be faster than what you've described. But again, I speculate. And i'm slow as molasses as a point of reference. ha!
Take this dude up on the offer, Gumby. Although I know you're not a noob.
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 08:59am PT
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Gumby...i showed you my TR solo rig just to give you a few options out there...dont let a few blowhards change your mind.....many different anchor senarios out there and its great to have a whole bag of tricks.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 09:40am PT
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I bought the 3th ed Long/Gaines Anchor book just to be supportive of the work that went into it. It covers a lot of ground like a lot of books on anchors, but this also was a bit of a journey for the authors as they did testing of the different anchors, had the results analyzed, then took their personal experience to push anchor design forward a little and field test the results. Having a technical background myself, putting to practice in field what you thought you learned in the lab is usually where things come apart to some degree. In this case I think they did an excellent job. The book is worth reading for the section of belay anchors alone; the end of this chapter is where the anchor test results are (for equal and unequal legs, different materials ect.). If I remember right, the quad setup came out of this testing process.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
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i already have one of those of course. but i have to lead the stuff first to set it up for the ropetek. duh.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
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The thing to keep in mind, is that you should never clip around all four strands of cord in the middle. Always clip around 3, and leave 1 alone. This is very important: if either end of the Quad should fail, the Quad will remain secure only if you have not clipped around all 4 strands, thus enabling the carabiner between the Quad and your rope to slip off the Quad.
This makes more sense to me about the quad. I thought they were clipping all 4!
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Oct 25, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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I think the only person that can help here is Weld_it.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Oct 26, 2013 - 10:08am PT
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I loaned gumby a copy of Long/Gaines anchor book.
What point do you consider someone qualified? Is that, like, a belay card from the gym? So... unless he wants to become an AMGA certified guide, the whole "certified" thing is sort of pointless, yeah? Though the point about not putting someone else up on rigging you question probably rings true.
Having just climbed with Gumby, it looks like he's doing pretty good for the amount of time he's been out. Some of you more "experienced" dudes should maybe offer to go climb with him instead of just roasting.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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it was a fun day. the buttress is top right
the route
johnnyrig on the first pitch
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2013 - 07:37pm PT
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this will give an idea of the leading technique. the orange metolius is connected to a homemade sling made with dynamic rope and loose overhand knots on each end (just like the one in my hand). The rope is clove hitched to a 3rd piece, the BD#3 in the pic here. I try to work with three pieces although that means there's only two when placing a piece, and often only one if i'm confident with my stance
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2013 - 02:21am PT
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better?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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i think what you're seeing is mostly from the point of view. when weighted all three were sharing load. there's no moving back and forth on this route, especially when the ropes get into the notch that the one on the left is already in. using the two spread out bolts would have been fine, but since there was a third i threw on the sling too. using the two bolts on the right would have resulted in the right strand of the cord running over the knife like ridge that is in the sun. i do need a longer cord though, especially for 3-piece gear anchors.
now for the other part of the set up. was soloing on the ropes with a prusik and slings for back up (it's a sport route)
before this pic i took a fall which got the prusik super tight, and had me floating 6 or 7 feet from the wall. took me a while to get out of that situation which is why i opted to use the draws next time around. i never got close to the top though
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Gumby... May I make suggestion, or Two??
When you use cams for a belay.... get some weight on them, if you can. It wont help for TR anchors but if your going to stand there, have at least one with your bod weight on it.
And .... I never girth hitch runners to your friendler (sp) rather I hitch them to the loop in the swami....The top part only. This keeps the friendler (sp) free so you can work your Rap belay deal without all the other stuff getting in the way.
Climb on...
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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I never girth hitch runners to your friendler (sp) rather I hitch them to the loop in the swami....The top part only. This keeps the friendler (sp) free so you can work your Rap belay deal without all the other stuff getting in the way. yeah i wish i had done that. getting off the hanging prusik involved setting up my atc which was a pain with the runners there.
When you use cams for a belay.... get some weight on them, if you can. not sure what this is referring to, unless it is the pic 1/2 way up the page which kind of looks like a gear belay. but thats just me climbing with three pieces of gear moving along with me.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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When you use cams for a belay.... get some weight on them, if you can.
not sure what this is referring to, unless it is the pic 1/2 way up the page which kind of looks like a gear belay. but thats just me climbing with three pieces of gear moving along with me.
Oh- in that case, never mind.
You will most likley die. ;>)
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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You will most likley die. ;>) yes, but it won't be sitting on a couch
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:18am PT
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so i've been working on anchors along with reading the long/gaines book as has been suggested several times in this thread and i have a question about the equalette. i have rafters in my bedroom and can sling them to play around building anchors and i noticed that when i use 3 or four pieces the equalette will equalize very well as long as the movement is just along a plane. when i move it in a 3rd dimension it remains equalized between two pieces but not the third. so i put in a sliding x between two of the pieces which brings back the equalization between all three pieces. here's a picture
so the question - is it ok to shorten one end simply using a clove hitch to get the anchor to a proper length for a comfortable belay position (as pictured with the left strand). i know the clove hitch is ok to clip to the two pieces but that's where i lost the equalization so i kept one clove anchored to the sliding x's master point. it seems to work and equalizes very well in 3 dimensions but i've never done it this way in the field. is it ok? is there a better way?
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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the two biners on the x looks good, even though I think that little part is superfluous when you are actually at the power point of the equalette, but the biners do seem to sit nicer. the clove on the left "arm" looks good. you can also clove/8inabite in another piece with the slack side of the clove as well, leaving whatever left over slack after equalizing dangling in between ( just have the correct strand oriented to back of biner, assuming a hitch ) but I'm sure you know all this, cause you been reading the book, right?
edit. Make it simple! and it will be better. is there a reason you couldnt just take out the extra crap on the left arm of the equalette. clove hitch one half of the arm directly to one of piece on the left, ( extended if needed, but not equalized yet ) and have the other half of the left arm cloved to the other piece, once again extended if needed. let the equalette do the equalizing, like it is supposed to, and just extend your pieces only if you need to to get to the equalette; just a guess, but i would think you dont even need some of the extra cordage there. so you could probably cut out 1 biner and the extra sling too.
dooes that make sense?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:44am PT
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that's how i had it originally. when i run the biners back and forth on the master point (think on a plane perpendicular to the camera) everything stays equalized. but when i move the master point forward and backwards (think towards the camera and away from it), the two strands on the left would become unequalized so the load was only carried by two instead of three points
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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That's sort of a shortfall of that style anchor. At some point, trying to build a self-equalizing anchor becomes more cumbersome and time consuming than beneficial. Often, you just have to pre-equalize as best you can on a side between two pieces. Otherwise, you'd end up equalizing those two pieces with a second sliding X on a sling.
Basically, ya gotta cut your losses at some point in the name of speed so you're not dicking around with it all day. Thinking, lots of the anchors I've seen have been cloved in the way you've done it there.
Guess what I mean is not everything can be efficiently self-equalizing.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:53am PT
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the thing about the self equalizing anchor is that it is easier and more efficient to set up since you don't have to worry so much about getting the pre-equalization right. the limiter knots are always there and clove hitches are easy to adjust to the right length.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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yes, when the pieces are in range of your cordolette and direction of pull stays somewhere in that x/y axis without going 3d, like you've noticed. When you get outside that ideal, it's more interesting.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 02:09am PT
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that's what i like most about it though. it increases the range of my cordelette. setting up the sliding x between the two other pieces is trivial and gives it the 3-d equalization.
i'm working on it and getting more comfortable with it mostly because the book slammed the cordelette as basically not equalizing at all, and for me it seems time consuming to set up a pre-equalized anchor each time when you can just pull a self equalizing one off your harness.
unless i'm missing something...
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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You really only end up with problems when the pre-tied cord (you said the knots stay in it... meaning the extension limiters?) doesn't fit well to the available locations for gear. Say, where the pieces go in a vertical crack. I think he addresses that too in there though.
Either way, cordolette or rope... self-equalizing or pre-equalized, the main thing is probably recognizing what's going to work for you in whatever situation you find yourself, and if you can predict the direction of pull or range of directions, then you can build your anchor accordingly. Just more tools in the bag for ya.
But remember, I'm about like turtle slow, so efficiency is kind of a lost cause on me, and I just try to build appropriate to the direction of pull I expect a load to bear on it.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 02:24am PT
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You really only end up with problems when the pre-tied cord (you said the knots stay in it... meaning the extension limiters?) doesn't fit well to the available locations for gear. and we've come full circle to my original question (i think). can i just shorten it to whatever length i want with a clove hitch. seems like it shouldn't be a problem, but i don't want to kill anyone. well, i shouldn't say anyone
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Short answer... yes. Depending on what expert you listen to.
Or, anyway, lots of the pieces I place get cloved in. But i'm no expert.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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i'm not sure i agree Dingus. The point being that adding the sliding x between the two pieces takes almost no time since it's self equalizing. putting in the equalette is also quick, also because it's self equalizing. the only adjustment is putting one clove hitch in approximately the right place. and if you get it wrong you don't have to untie it to adjust it.
i'm the new guy here so take it for what it's worth, but it seems easier and quicker to me than working with a cordelette, requires less cord than a cordelette, and achieves greatly superior equalization as compared to a cordelette.
having said that, my last climb was corrugation and we were fighting the daylight and each of my anchors was two pieces with a sliding x.
either way, it seems like this would be something to have in my bag
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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i think that matters as it relates to my climb the other day, since the shock loading from one piece failing there could have been severe due to the length of each arm. and that's the reason i want to get familiar with the equalette. as it pertains to the picture above, if one of the pieces that are part of that sliding x were to fail, the shock loading would be negligible.
was trying to get Britney to go to the fortress tomorrow, but she's got too much to do so i'm heading up her way to the black wall. i need to learn the woodfords way.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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3 solid pieces? Why equalization? WHY? If you're not going to equalize them, why bother putting in more than one??
Ron, when I climbed Haystack earlier this year a guy came up as I was belaying the 2nd pitch. He plugged in three pieces threw in a couple cloves and i think a figure 8 on a bight as the master. was belaying the 2nd in under 2 minutes. i wish i had my helmet cam cause he was too fast for me to soak it all in. i'm sure that's where i'm headed but i'm not there yet.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Long/Gaines book; Gumby, the cordelette is still a viable option in this book. What they hammer is the cordelette with unequal legs. The more imbalance in the leg length, the worse the loading imbalance. Having unequal legs screws up load equalizing in all the setups tested, but it was way worse with the cordelette. OK...I'm just babbling about the testing results presented in the book not real world. I found a video by Seattle Mountaineers of someone setting up a trad anchor; basically going through the motions of doing 2 pitches. They used the cordelette setup as the anchor (the video is a year old).
DMT What I'd like to know is with a series of clove hitched pieces, is this with some cord? or is it directly tied into the climbing rope? I'm thinking it's with cord but hell if I can visualize it. It seems like the old timers (same age as me but been climbing for much of their life) use the clove hitch bomber piece method (cause I don't know what else to call it). What I've been told by friends (who don't live close by) is that the primary goal is to climb fast and not spend lots of time rigging stuff (sounds like DMT) unless necessary (ie lack of bomber pieces).
I"ve coughed up for a class here an there but I can't afford it. So I've done exactly what Gumby has done, build this stuff at the crags, at home, just about anywhere for practice while trying to be safe about it. I've noticed that NONE of them truly equalize if the direction of load shifts much at all.
Either way, I've got to give IM A GUMBY dagnabbit kudos for giving this stuff such a solid effort.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Gumby, was it like 3 clove hitches and a figure 8 with the belay off the shelf of the figure 8?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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DMT.... I ask same question all the time... why equilize? are the pieces that s*ity? If they are, and you need to belay right there... something is wrong. Look for a better place.
And Ron... me to, I use the rope, some clove hitches and some times the slings I always carry....
And to Gumby I say this, speed is safe, if it takes you 5 min to set up each anchor on a ten pitch climb, it most likley takes you 5 min to break it down.... so thats 100 min!!!!! Of not moving.
Think about that for a second......
ABTW... I have watched people spend 10+ min screwing around at a bolted anchor.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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Gumby, was it like 3 clove hitches and a figure 8 with the belay off the shelf of the figure 8? i'm not sure, and I can't quite figure out how the third piece fit in to the equation. it was fast and i was lead belaying at the time as she was working out the roof section.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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If you're not going to equalize them, why bother putting in more than one??
I've been wondering for awhile now, how are you around tools in general? Are you a skilled tool user? Wood tools? Metal tools? Much life experience in these areas would you say?
Many here have grown up with a saw and hammer in their hands. It helps.
I probably wouldn't climb, particularly wouldn't lead trad, if I wasn't really comfortable around rotary saws, high voltage, etc.. From a lifetime of life experience with tools and assorted materials.
Back in high school, were you more inclined to woodshop and metal shop or to choir and drama and home ec? It's probably relevant here.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Well, since either method can be fast and efficient, then the reason for an equalette is when you expect the direction of loading to vary. Learn how to set up both quickly, then you can choose at the moment.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Gumby, I've been trying to figure this same friggen thing out. If I'm wasting energy hanging by my fingertips trying to rig something fancy up...not good. BUT putting in some good pieces and popping clove hitches in them seems much quicker and as good. More than one bomber piece equals redundancy in my mind. Anyway, me talking is like the blind trying to show the sighted the way.....but that's the way I am looking at it now.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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I've been wondering for awhile now, how are you around tools in general? Are you a skilled tool user? Wood tools? Metal tools? Much life experience in these areas would you say?
Many here have grown up with a saw and hammer in their hands. It helps. yes i am good with tools, (especially knives and forks) and i got smarts, but it has never been my job. i knew the answer to my question before i asked it. the point is - three pieces equalized is safer than three pieces not equalized. so why not shoot for that if you can do it quickly. in the real world good enough is probably all that can be attained, but i'm practicing in my bedroom and i have a tradition of excellence to live up to there. ;) in short, i want to make my 'good enough' better than it currently is.
for me, the equalette is quicker than the cordelette. however, when practicing it i noticed that two of the pieces weren't equalizing if they weren't all in the same plane. adding the sling with a sliding x fixed this. now if i had to go through all that and figure it out through trial and error while on a belay it would be very time consuming, but if i placed the pieces and recognized it right away i could do it very quickly.
I probably wouldn't climb, particularly wouldn't lead trad, if I wasn't really comfortable around rotary saws, high voltage, etc.. From a lifetime of life experience with tools and assorted materials. ????
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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And, just for argument sake...
What are the odds you and your partner are going to FF2?
Low.
However, such a fall is almost exclusively going to happen at the anchor. Now consider strength ratings of your pro- those are under idealistic conditions/placements. So the questin i,m leading to- Do you want to risk putting that kind of force on a single piece, or series of single pieces in succession? Pieces that may pull at less than rated strength?
THAT'S why you equalize. Maybe you wont be spot-on perfect, but if you get close enough to spread the load, say, 60-25-15 then you,re that much better off than 100%, or a succession of 100-100-100.
Once you get pieces in above the belay, each on adds more rope and reduces length of the fall and thus energy, so its far more likely that those single pieces will hold.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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I can roll a joint in the time it takes most 'fast' people to cordelette an anchor to death.
5 minutes? Yes, in the garage maybe.
DMT we should climb, and we'll both have something to do..
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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yes i am good with tools
Good. It's also good to run through the textbook examples, don't get me wrong, and to know the theory. But I also bet down the road, your thinking and your systems based on experience will evolve and what dmt says, for instance, will be clearer. My two cents.
????
The point of the last quote is that climbing is dangerous, w safety obviously very dependent on mechanical, material and tool savvy, and if I wasn't really comfortable with mechanical thingamajigs, structural stuff in high places, etc. - I'd probably think twice about partaking in such potentially perilous activity, particularly at a higher level.
I think we both know, human nature what it is, we have the Werners and the Gilligans in the world, so there really shouldn't be any confusion on this point, I don't think. Glad to hear youre positioned more toward a Werner than a Gilligan.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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Remember too, it only has to self equalize if your direction of loading is gona change. Probly 90 percent of jhe time at least, it wont. Thats why just plain old pre-equalized works just fine.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
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^^not true when the arms are different length, which is almost always.
from the book you lent me. ;)
Not only is equalization very poor, but the degree of equalization varies wildly from fall to fall. This configuration is very unpredictable, except that the difference in forces generated from a fall (to each arm) will be high. The cordelette unequal length is simply to be avoided.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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remedial reading for me, eh? oops.
due to the inherent stretch that exists even in static cord. Doesnt realy matter whether its the rope, webbing, or cord.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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here is the 1st belay i brought you up on at eagle buttress.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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my first thought was 'damn, that looks like my rope.' then i realized it was.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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yeah, and the pic shd be rotated clockwise.
two left pieces cloved in, pre-equalized.
any chance you caught a pic of the top anchor? i didnt.
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jonnyrig
Trad climber
formerly known as hillrat
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you do know your in far more danger from an unroped downclimb than from one of these multi-piece anchors failing, right?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
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unroped downclimb? who would do such a thing?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
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KISS
just the one nut is all you need
climbed up a ways at pie shop this evening. but i didn't know what was above and it was starting to get dark, so i left a nut and biner behind and rapped down. i think it was on the slot so you're welcome to the booty. warning though, the biner was also booty that i found on the ledge below, so it probably fell down from above to get there.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Nov 22, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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Hey Gumby! So it's raining down here and I stumbled into this You Tube series called Mike's Mail by Mike Barter. He's a Canadian guide and has some interesting babbling about anchors and other topics...Some of the points he makes are pretty relevant so you might want to just check it out just for sh#ts and giggles. I don't take any of this stuff as god's truth, but I'm trying to compact a missing 30 years of experience into a short period of time while keeping my day job. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's hard to have fun when your dead, so all this information is somewhat watcher beware.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Nov 22, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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Supertopo, be my mentor
Man. You're really lost!
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
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thanks skcreidc,
i had already watched all of mikes videos. liked them all. try and tell someone here or in the field that it's ok to rappel with your rope just through a nylon sling and see the reaction you get.
i'll look more into climbingtechtips but everything i've watched so far has been superglossy. One minute and 59 seconds on 'How to build a trad anchor' including the 20 second intro
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
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thanks i'll go check it out.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2015 - 03:16pm PT
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so this was a new one for me today. i was using a equalette for a top rope anchor today. the bolts are on the edge of a cliff with lots of decomposed granite at the top so it's difficult to get a good look over after the rope pulls it tight. my partner climbed up most of the route and got to where the wall was blank and she couldn't get any higher. she said she thought lockers looked funny and was a bit worried. i lowered her and repeated the climb. i knew if she couldn't get up it i probably wouldn't either but i would just move over to the easier terrain on the right to check out the anchor. on the easier terrain i was cruising and not paying too much attention and i lost a foot on the polished rock and fell about 6'. no biggie so i climbed back up and as i approached the anchor the lockers looked ok but the equalette did not. i gingerly finished the route and got off belay. this was the equalette
the only thing i can think of is somehow the rope got on top of, or pinched around the cordalette and lowering ashley melted it. and then when i fell it somehow fixed the positioning of the lockers so they looked normal when i got to the top (i did notice before i moved over that they were in a weird position). any ideas what happened
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
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That's fuggly.
Hey Gumby,
How do you rappel? I suggest that you rappel with your belay device extended about 16". ( I like to use a shoulder length sling girth hitched through my tie in. That is followed by an auto block (prussic) to your tie in or belay loop.
This way both hands are on the brake/control side of the rope. Both hands are available for the work at hand ( rope tending, swings, etc.)Your prussic is easy to mind and is a load bearing rig.
This is common in Europe and for guiding. As a leader it also allows you to pre-rig the follower's rappel before descending from the anchor. The sling also works as a quick tie in at anchors.
Yer Gonna Die
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2015 - 11:14pm PT
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my set up is usually the opposite of that. the belay directly to my harness and the the prusik (if i'm cleaning or planning to shoot pics or something) extended with a sling.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 26, 2015 - 06:23am PT
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Opposite of most people but I'm going to try it next time myself as it looks like a great safe system. Mebbe with a kleimheist instead of a prussik. I'll try a few types of autolock knots and see what works for me.
Even us old timers learn new things and the more tools you have in the bag the better.
Regarding your post 3 above gumby..yeah..stuff like that really makes you careful. Climbing IS dangerous because no on can foresee every possible failure of a system everytime. You will be more careful about sharp edges and ropes running over each other from now on I'll bet.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 26, 2015 - 06:32am PT
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Can't think of how the rope could get above the cord and stay there long enough to burn through it somehow, unless some king of godawful twist got into it?
Not much skiing this year, huh?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2015 - 06:35am PT
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December was okay but then everything pretty much fell apart
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 26, 2015 - 06:35am PT
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Hard to see for sure in the picture but I think those are the tails of the knot and it got sucked up through the biner by the rope.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2015 - 06:58am PT
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no that's the middle of the equalette each strand had a locker attached which was also attached to the rope.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 26, 2015 - 07:07am PT
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Climb2ski,
The klemheist works really well.
Gumby, this system is far better and safer than a prussic above the belay for the reasons that I mentioned above. It is a textbook system Its the math. Careful with your babies friend.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 26, 2015 - 07:44am PT
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Here's the only way I could get the rope to run against the equalette. 9/10 times, the biners simply righted themselves and all was good. It stuck this way just once. Your picture looks as though the rope ran over both strands of the cord though, which would imply that it got over the top somehow. Said it was hard to see the master point after the rope pulled it tight, so you didn't rap off after setting the anchor right? Just built it, tossed it off, and walked down?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2015 - 08:02am PT
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yes couldn't see the master point and ashley just said 'Yes that's exactly what it looked like!'
And then it must have righted itself when i fell.
Looking closer though, when you look at my pic, the second strand is also slightly burned.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 26, 2015 - 08:10am PT
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Well shoot dude, glad it didn't burn clear through on ya. I saw the second strand burn too; but couldn't get my cord to reproduce contact with both strands unless I ran the rope entirely over the cord. Coulda been worse.
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| Messages 1 - 159 of total 159 in this topic |
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