Tito Traversa, 12, Fighting For His Life

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Messages 201 - 208 of total 208 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
Kids had no business using these without adult supervision. End of story. There're many ways to incorrectly rig/load just one carabiner and pay for it. They should start selling equipment with notice "not for use by persons under 16" or similar age--then, there'd be no lawsuits (and then, the kids won't be able to climb in the gyms as well, other than the bouldering wall) There's a reason a 10 year old can't get a driving license. Car is unsafe in a lot of ways too...yet, you can't sue the manufacturer if you confused two pedals. These pieces of equipment can be not 100% straightforward to operate ,but the whole point is that adults who make their own choices are meant to use them. What if the kid didn't tie a knot correctly? Would they sue a rope manufacturer for lack of knot instructions? It's like putting your child in a passenger seat of a truck and putting a 10 year old at the steering wheel. It's hard to imagine adult rigging 12 biners through plastic, that's where the ability to exercise "common sense gained from life experience" comes in, simply, and little kids didn't have a chance to develop this.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
F'in lawyers. Nobody gets anything out of this but them. The kid's name isn't honored in the climbing world he loved, his parents don't get their son back, and people will still f*#k up and die because climbing is still a dangerous sport.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Kids had no business using these without adult supervision. End of story

No, it's not "end of story". Substitute "using these" with "climbing" and you might have a point. I'd much sooner send a kid up with"string" equipped QDs, properly rigged, than QDs without them. Again, has nothing to do with the strings, and everything to do with children participating in a DANGEROUS SPORT without proper oversight.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 26, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
F'in lawyers. Nobody gets anything out of this but them.

You do know this is happening in a foreign country, with a legal system not particularly similar to ours? And whatever type of "lawyers" you're mad at have nothing to do with what's going on here?

To the guy who doesn't think there was "gross negligence" involved in this death: my god, I don't think it would be easy to come up with a better example (well, operating machinery while highly intoxicated is a good one I suppose). Whether the "gross negligence" is or should be legally actionable may be a fair question, but the existence of the g.n. isn't really subject to reasonable dispute.
marcussi

Trad climber
verona italy
Sep 10, 2013 - 02:05am PT
A short video has just been released by Andrea Tosi, in memoriam of Tito: https://vimeo.com/73438226
jstan

climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:37am PT
When an activity is changed or is just different there are many small adaptations. When we used knotted 1" tubular around the shoulder with two biners on it, you clipped the anchor with either biner. This loose configuration also allowed easy inspection of both the sling and the biners for their condition. The climbing was easier so the extra weight of the solid gates on the biners was not a problem.

Quick draws sewn tightly changes many things. I would definitely be nervous about wire gates on a sewn draw. Actually I would probably not use them at all. Very hard to predict all the things that can happen to a biner in a fall. I do have one wired gate. Never used it.

What are the changes we have to make? To start with you would have to check each draw to make sure the anchor biner is clipped to the junk sling( or the harness). Right there that means a climber has to inspect every item. Used to be you could throw a junk sling to someone and they were off. No more.

Climbing is more detail oriented than it used to be. Much more detail oriented.

Harder to inspect sewn draws for their condition, and we won't even mention use of fixed biners on routes. Never saw one of those, so never used one. We were lucky years ago.

Early on I set myself the goal of tolerating no more than one chance in a hundred of a serious situation on a climb. (Doing a thousand climbs left me open to all the risk I was willing to entertain.) I spent far too much effort trying to understand Quantum Mechanics to risk having those self same neural connections end up as a bloody pulp on some rock.

So other than suggesting climbing is now very detail oriented I would suggest no one take up climbing before taking Quantum Mechanics 101, at a minimum. Being ten years old does not prevent one from doing this. Actually, that may be the ideal age.
duncan

climber
London, UK
Sep 10, 2013 - 07:52am PT
A tragic accident.

The best summary of the Italian legal position I've read was written by an Italian climber and law student here.

It seems that, in Italy, when someone has died, all connected parties are automatically prosecuted. This is the point the proceedings have reached. The prosecutor then evaluates which of the parties have a case to answer in court. It should not be assumed that all the parties will have a case to answer.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:12am PT
To the guy who doesn't think there was "gross negligence" involved in this death: my god, I don't think it would be easy to come up with a better example

Really?

How so? Do you find yourself freaking out and looking to call the cops anytime you see a kid climbing with another kid at the gym? If they arn't attended closely every second by an adult?

While that might be a good idea actually I must admit I see it all the time and I don't worry about it any more than any other climbers at the gym.
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