Tito Traversa, 12, Fighting For His Life

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Messages 161 - 180 of total 208 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Gene

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
poorly-designed equipment.


A couple of thoughts:

Do those plastic holders really do anything? Do they make clipping that much easier? Or are they an unnecessary doo-dad bling accessory? Some dog bones I have seen have very tight loops and require a bit of effort to thread the biner. I ask because KISS matters.

At 12 years of age, Tito would have been starting middle school in September if he were local. Hed be four years shy of being able to drive a car. Lack of competent supervision complacency is the cause of his passing. So sad.

g

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 10, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Do we need to balance the simple convenience needs of many against the deaths of a few?

In the end I guess it just depends on insurance and litigation costs. Seems like one litigation would wipe out any possible profit from such cheap devices.
Gene

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Those rubber keepers are not needed. Isnt their purpose to keep the gate of the biner that gets clipped from wobbling? Just sew the dog bone loop tight so that it takes some effort to thread the biner. Done. The keepers are a gimmick a solution looking for a problem. Am I missing something here?

Credit: Gene

[Note that the picture has the gizmo on the wrong end of the draw as was pointed out previously. My arrow should be at the other end of the draw.]

Why market a product that is not needed and is just another link in a chain of what could and did go wrong?

g
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
The following report, posted by daysleeper on UK Climbing and then by bearbreeder over on rc.com, indicates that even when people check for problems they can miss them.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/04/report-released-on-usfs-rappelling-fatality/

Four experienced people checked this set-up and failed to detect the problem, which is far more obvious than the problem with Tito's draws. The rappeller was killed.



The report goes on to discuss studies highlighting intrinsic perceptual difficulties in detecting unexpected configurations.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:52am PT
"Inattentional blindness" ...very interesting. If adults performed this poorly I can only guess how a. 12 year old would do.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:36am PT
A video demonstrating how hard it is to notice things.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:31am PT
As much as I feel that the adults at the scene should have shown more responsibility, I can't say that I would have been astute enough to notice a 10 year old assembling Tito's draws and then check them critically.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:36am PT
They might not have even been assembled on site.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:38am PT
Murcy, not sure that video is that useful, saw the gorilla and got the # of passes correct...

When you are climbing, single-pitch, multi-pitch, sport, trad, boulder, you check your gear, every time... whoever was in charge of the gear for that group is in a personal hell the likes of which few of us have experienced...

Like the idiot I saw yesterday and posted about... do not cut corners to save time, do not rush, do not assume things have been done properly... above all, never leave the ground if you don't trust something or haven't checked the set-up personally...

Charles
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:40am PT
Monolith, true...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
hey there say, rgold...

thank you for sharing...

it is THIS:

...intrinsic perceptual difficulties in detecting unexpected configurations.


THIS is far more common than folks in ANY field, job, sports, household work, AND--the list goes on...


this is very much similar, and on the same trail, as what i was trying to share:


the BRAIN in new, or fast, or even in 'habit' mode, MAY not always
be telling us WHAT we think we heard, or understood (its override, i think it would be, in this case)--or we may even IGNORE something it WANTED to tell us, by falling susceptible to 'OUR overide, as to what we are busy thinking at the time)'...
*added some edit, in case i did not or cannot seem to explain this proper, it is so complex...


hence, the marvels of teamwork, and double-checking (however, double checking is not always going to do it)...

what can DO it, or helps more is:

either TALKING to yourself about anything that WOULD be serious, as you do it, or looking at it from various angles, ahead of time, etc...



*anyone that proof-reads, etc, know how very easy it is for the brain to
see what SHOULD BE THERE, until you do an 'reverse check' and read backward, page up, etc, or, have someone ELSE read it to you, or if you read it OUTLOUD...

we are HUMANs that need VARIOUS safeguards, and even 'un-habit' type ones, thrown in it, on occasions to 'KEEP the brain on alert'...



dear family, please forgive, i have now become part of 'over doing this'...
but i AM A MOMMY AND GRAMMA AND BIG SISTER type, and i love all my
buddies here and all the kids that want to learn...


the BRAIN again, is a marvelous thing--we really are would be nowhere without it, but:

but--we need to understand 'it's GLITCHES'...
take a survey of MANY of the odd mistakes you've done--many times you will wonder, HOW in the world did i DO THAT????? i KNEW better, :O
or, i've done it right, before, all these years...



SOMETHING new or odd, just triggered the brain to 'GLITCH' into
doing an 'OVERRIDE' of 'your judgement' :(



sadly, in climbing, there is no room for mistakes, or time to fix them...
dear family and loved ones... love and prayers to you as you go forward, without your beloved child...



*won't share anymore now, i just saw something very good shared by
rgold...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 24, 2013 - 07:56am PT
Petzl has updated their instructions for their "String" products to include the following precautions. The second item down in the right-hand column is the set-up that killed Tito.

"String" precaustions from Petzl
"String" precaustions from Petzl
Credit: rgold

See http://www.petzl.com/files/all/product-experience/SPORT/PE_STRING_M90-PE-01A_EN.pdf for the full document.

Maybe these should be posted at all gyms?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:22am PT
Even the very clear graphics of the image above aren't gonna save people from rigging draws with rubber thingies wrong.

I'm with those who say "Why do we need the rubber thingies?"

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:49am PT
Tami, Petzl's answer is

Petzl's argument for rubber keepers
Petzl's argument for rubber keepers
Credit: rgold

The diagram itself makes little sense, since no one would clip a biner oriented that way and leave it as shown. But we've all seen biners flip around, and there have been various biner failures with the gate blown outwards that suggest this type of orientation might somehow happen. Sewn quickdraw slings with relatively little room in the biner loops probably make it more likely that a biner will stay badly oriented if it manages to get into such a position.

I don't use the rubber thingies, but all my draws are tripled "trad" draws.
Deekaid

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:20am PT
The keepers make the draw easier to clip when you are pumped so that the biner doesn't flip around as you franticly grab it. They also prevent the biner from re-orienting into a sideload configuration as the rope moves through it. These seem like pretty useful features to me.
As far as Bishyrats' comment I have and do inspect quickdraws because this is nothing new.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 09:57am PT
I also Richie, that the rubber keepers prevent abrasion at this packed, knot-like junction in the system. A good thing especially when draws are up for a long time or permanent, or in the case of just your ordinary hardware collection, getting a lot of use over a lot of terrain.
wicoxfreedom

Sport climber
Anoka, MN
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
I don't find that the rubber keepers help stabalize any more than a regular sewn dogbone. However, as we've discussed ad nauseum, the emphasis is on the climbers/belayers double checks. As you can read here, I too have had to catch myself mentally getting complacent. Just can't slip up, gotta be dogmatic about it no matter how long we've been at it.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Looks as if someone is going to be blamed:

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/manslaughter-charges-filed-after-titos-accident

This is why Chouinard got out of the equipment business.

I can see suing the supervisors, but the manufacturer and the gear store owner?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Maybe the store improperly assembled the draws?

I used to just use tape on them which does the same thing as the rubber snubbers. I liked the action of the biner not rotating around in a desperate clip!
Deekaid

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
it also allows for the use of different sized biners which you might not otherwise be able to use if the dog bone end is sewn .tight
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