Tito Traversa, 12, Fighting For His Life

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rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Tami, Petzl's answer is

Petzl's argument for rubber keepers
Petzl's argument for rubber keepers
Credit: rgold

The diagram itself makes little sense, since no one would clip a biner oriented that way and leave it as shown. But we've all seen biners flip around, and there have been various biner failures with the gate blown outwards that suggest this type of orientation might somehow happen. Sewn quickdraw slings with relatively little room in the biner loops probably make it more likely that a biner will stay badly oriented if it manages to get into such a position.

I don't use the rubber thingies, but all my draws are tripled "trad" draws.
Deekaid

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
The keepers make the draw easier to clip when you are pumped so that the biner doesn't flip around as you franticly grab it. They also prevent the biner from re-orienting into a sideload configuration as the rope moves through it. These seem like pretty useful features to me.
As far as Bishyrats' comment I have and do inspect quickdraws because this is nothing new.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
I also Richie, that the rubber keepers prevent abrasion at this packed, knot-like junction in the system. A good thing especially when draws are up for a long time or permanent, or in the case of just your ordinary hardware collection, getting a lot of use over a lot of terrain.
wicoxfreedom

Sport climber
Anoka, MN
Jul 24, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
I don't find that the rubber keepers help stabalize any more than a regular sewn dogbone. However, as we've discussed ad nauseum, the emphasis is on the climbers/belayers double checks. As you can read here, I too have had to catch myself mentally getting complacent. Just can't slip up, gotta be dogmatic about it no matter how long we've been at it.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Looks as if someone is going to be blamed:

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/manslaughter-charges-filed-after-titos-accident

This is why Chouinard got out of the equipment business.

I can see suing the supervisors, but the manufacturer and the gear store owner?
Deekaid

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
it also allows for the use of different sized biners which you might not otherwise be able to use if the dog bone end is sewn .tight
Deekaid

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
no instructions in the packaging sounds like liability to me
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
It sounds like a spatter suit where the complainant sues everyone. What outcomes occur is anybody's guess but what is assured is that some lawyers will make some money.


All around a very sad case. A child has lost his life.....
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
Does anyone know which specific biners/draws were being used at the time of the accident? It seems everyone has been assuming they were from Petzl but is that actually a fact?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Tami, this appears to be criminal not civil,...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:54pm PT
Mark, I don't know if the manufacturer(s) of the component(s) have been identified, but I don't think the keepers are Petzl. Even though their updated information includes a warning about the type of keeper involved in the Traversa tragedy (http://www.petzl.com/files/all/product-experience/SPORT/PE_STRING_M90-PE-01A_EN.pdf);, I don't think Petzl makes a keeper of that design. Moreover, the DPM article says that the manufacturer is Italian, which would rule out Petzl.
Deekaid

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:09am PT
just says an Italian company in the last posted article

really sucks for the friends and family
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:05am PT
Tami, this appears to be criminal not civil,...

Looks like they are criminal charges for manslaughter.

If the charges sound odd, remember that this is happening Italy, where they have convicted scientists of manslaughter for failing to predict an earthquake:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=italian-scientists-get

Six Italian scientists and a government official have been sentenced to six years in prison over statements they made prior to a 2009 earthquake that killed 309 in the town of L'Aquila.

Then there is the Amanda Knox story ...

My advice to anyone visiting Italy is make sure nobody dies while you are there.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:32am PT
I saw this coming.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:01am PT
WOW.. Manslaughter?

5 people charged? Wow.. If I were a company of ANY type I wouldn't allow my products into Italy or to be sold to Italians anywhere in the world.

The accident happened in France didn't it? USA has extradition agreements with Italy I think. Does this mean if I climb with an Italian here.. something terrible occurs.. I could be charged in Italy and extradited?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
It's a criminal case. Italy has a 'civil law' system in which criminal cases include damages for crime victims. The US, UK, Canada, and a few others have 'common law' systems where crime victims have to file a separate civil case for damages. Colombia's legal system is modeled after the Italian one. The victims have rights in court and generally have lawyers. Also, a crime victim can investigate a case him/herself, and initiate a criminal proceeding. In the US, a crime victim has no enforceable rights in a criminal case, and the decision whether to procescute is entirely within the discretion of the prosecutor.

Another difference is in the use of the term prosecutor. In civil law systems, the judge (sometimes called judge of instruction) has a role that combines judge and prosecutor. If that seems unfair, they also have a procurador (not sure this is translatable) who is another judicial official who protects the constitutional rights of the accused. In the US, the defendant (really his lawyer) has to protect his own rights.

So, I doubt any lawyers will get rich off this case. It also seems unlikely to me that anyone would really go to prison for this. But I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things. Remember about a year ago in the western US (Idaho?) there was some kind of rapelling event, a kid leaned back and fell 100 feet and died. The rope was fed through something, I forgot what it was, that wasn't strong enough to hold body weight. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any climbing gear that can't hold body weight.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
But I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things.


I use (and like) rubber things that hold carabiners in place on a quickdraw. I hope that this lawsuit changes nothing about their availability.

there shouldn't be any climbing gear that can't hold body weight.

Does this mean my chalk bag should be strong enough to hold body weight, in the event that I choose to use it as part of my anchor system?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Didn't an Italian court find that vacines caused Austism despite the entire scientific community saying otherwise? Also the same court that tried and failed to convict Amanda Knox? Good luck!!!!


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things

Um, NO. They serve a very useful purpose and do exactly what they are designed to do...hold the rope-end biner in place within the draw so it doesn't flip orientation, thereby making clips easier and reducing the chance that the rope-end biner is cross loaded or unclips itself from the draw.

MisterE

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Oh, No! We may have to go back to the broccoli rubber bands...
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