Tito Traversa, 12, Fighting For His Life

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Messages 181 - 200 of total 203 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Deekaid

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:09am PT
just says an Italian company in the last posted article

really sucks for the friends and family
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:05am PT
Tami, this appears to be criminal not civil,...

Looks like they are criminal charges for manslaughter.

If the charges sound odd, remember that this is happening Italy, where they have convicted scientists of manslaughter for failing to predict an earthquake:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=italian-scientists-get

Six Italian scientists and a government official have been sentenced to six years in prison over statements they made prior to a 2009 earthquake that killed 309 in the town of L'Aquila.

Then there is the Amanda Knox story ...

My advice to anyone visiting Italy is make sure nobody dies while you are there.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:32am PT
I saw this coming.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 10:36am PT
This is a fault of parents mostly, not of the equipment manufacturer. The parents should have been there, inspecting the rigging. I could not believe to hear a 10 year old was rigging the quickdraws for him, without adult checking them. If the manufacturer is sued, etc these suits will result in ban on underage child climbing or using carabiners, etc (not a bad thing, I think). A child can't make judgements like an adult, that's why there're so many things restricted to adult use. But parents should have been there; mostly seems like child neglect suit.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:01am PT
WOW.. Manslaughter?

5 people charged? Wow.. If I were a company of ANY type I wouldn't allow my products into Italy or to be sold to Italians anywhere in the world.

The accident happened in France didn't it? USA has extradition agreements with Italy I think. Does this mean if I climb with an Italian here.. something terrible occurs.. I could be charged in Italy and extradited?
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Wow, the story with sentencing Italian scientists to 6 years of prison is shocking..."Jordano Bruno" comes to mind. Inquisition seems to be back in Southern Europe...
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
It's a criminal case. Italy has a 'civil law' system in which criminal cases include damages for crime victims. The US, UK, Canada, and a few others have 'common law' systems where crime victims have to file a separate civil case for damages. Colombia's legal system is modeled after the Italian one. The victims have rights in court and generally have lawyers. Also, a crime victim can investigate a case him/herself, and initiate a criminal proceeding. In the US, a crime victim has no enforceable rights in a criminal case, and the decision whether to procescute is entirely within the discretion of the prosecutor.

Another difference is in the use of the term prosecutor. In civil law systems, the judge (sometimes called judge of instruction) has a role that combines judge and prosecutor. If that seems unfair, they also have a procurador (not sure this is translatable) who is another judicial official who protects the constitutional rights of the accused. In the US, the defendant (really his lawyer) has to protect his own rights.

So, I doubt any lawyers will get rich off this case. It also seems unlikely to me that anyone would really go to prison for this. But I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things. Remember about a year ago in the western US (Idaho?) there was some kind of rapelling event, a kid leaned back and fell 100 feet and died. The rope was fed through something, I forgot what it was, that wasn't strong enough to hold body weight. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any climbing gear that can't hold body weight.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
But I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things.


I use (and like) rubber things that hold carabiners in place on a quickdraw. I hope that this lawsuit changes nothing about their availability.

there shouldn't be any climbing gear that can't hold body weight.

Does this mean my chalk bag should be strong enough to hold body weight, in the event that I choose to use it as part of my anchor system?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Didn't an Italian court find that vacines caused Austism despite the entire scientific community saying otherwise? Also the same court that tried and failed to convict Amanda Knox? Good luck!!!!


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things

Um, NO. They serve a very useful purpose and do exactly what they are designed to do...hold the rope-end biner in place within the draw so it doesn't flip orientation, thereby making clips easier and reducing the chance that the rope-end biner is cross loaded or unclips itself from the draw.

MisterE

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
Oh, No! We may have to go back to the broccoli rubber bands...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
Don Paul.... your bio says you are a "Big Wall Climber" so in your world those rubber band thingies are not usefull.... I would like to point out this...

What if someone used a adjustable dasy incorrectly and they died?

Would you wish that the manufacturers STOPPED making and selling them??

I don't wall climb, but I sure would not be telling wall climbers what works and what does not.

Just saying...

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Italy has the nerve to say this climbing gear is bogus yet they still allow
Fiats to be sold?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
This incident is tragic, but in a world where climbing is commercially mass-marketed as a largely risk-free, any-man's leisure activity there are going to be significant and unavoidable collateral damages which clash with society's notions of propriety, responsibility and blame.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
There is no "justice" Other than bringing him back from the dead.

The rest is just destroying more lives for no good reason. I see no gross negligence, no intent to do harm. No effort of any kind to hide some fault.


conned? You really think someone sat around deliberately installing the gear incorrectly then got Tito to give them something of value in return for the deliberately messed up draws..

It's a pretty simple scenario.. some kid put the draws together incorrectly and handed them to tito.. he clipped em.. fell and died.

Everything can be designed with more safety but these draws are not by any stretch of my imagination some sort of "deathtrap"

If I were a judge I'd be tempted to fine whoever brought up the case for wasting the courts time.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
Kids had no business using these without adult supervision. End of story. There're many ways to incorrectly rig/load just one carabiner and pay for it. They should start selling equipment with notice "not for use by persons under 16" or similar age--then, there'd be no lawsuits (and then, the kids won't be able to climb in the gyms as well, other than the bouldering wall) There's a reason a 10 year old can't get a driving license. Car is unsafe in a lot of ways too...yet, you can't sue the manufacturer if you confused two pedals. These pieces of equipment can be not 100% straightforward to operate ,but the whole point is that adults who make their own choices are meant to use them. What if the kid didn't tie a knot correctly? Would they sue a rope manufacturer for lack of knot instructions? It's like putting your child in a passenger seat of a truck and putting a 10 year old at the steering wheel. It's hard to imagine adult rigging 12 biners through plastic, that's where the ability to exercise "common sense gained from life experience" comes in, simply, and little kids didn't have a chance to develop this.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
F'in lawyers. Nobody gets anything out of this but them. The kid's name isn't honored in the climbing world he loved, his parents don't get their son back, and people will still f*#k up and die because climbing is still a dangerous sport.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:55pm PT
Kids had no business using these without adult supervision. End of story

No, it's not "end of story". Substitute "using these" with "climbing" and you might have a point. I'd much sooner send a kid up with"string" equipped QDs, properly rigged, than QDs without them. Again, has nothing to do with the strings, and everything to do with children participating in a DANGEROUS SPORT without proper oversight.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 26, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
F'in lawyers. Nobody gets anything out of this but them.

You do know this is happening in a foreign country, with a legal system not particularly similar to ours? And whatever type of "lawyers" you're mad at have nothing to do with what's going on here?

To the guy who doesn't think there was "gross negligence" involved in this death: my god, I don't think it would be easy to come up with a better example (well, operating machinery while highly intoxicated is a good one I suppose). Whether the "gross negligence" is or should be legally actionable may be a fair question, but the existence of the g.n. isn't really subject to reasonable dispute.
marcussi

Trad climber
verona italy
Sep 10, 2013 - 02:05am PT
A short video has just been released by Andrea Tosi, in memoriam of Tito: https://vimeo.com/73438226
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