Tito Traversa, 12, Fighting For His Life

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Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 5, 2013 - 09:28am PT
Tito Traversa, 12 years old and a terrific new top level climbing talent, is fighting for his life after a 60 ft grounder on lead, due to improperly slung quick draws. Not an error of Tito's but I gather the maker of the draws or how they were assembled, bought by the mother of a young girlfriend of Tito's, that morning.

http://climbingnarc.com/2013/07/tito-traversa-seriously-injured-in-fall/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ClimbingNarc+%28ClimbingNarc.com%29


From:

http://www.grimper.com/news-tito-traversa-plonge-coma-artificiel-cause-une-chute-orpier#.UdaZpBHnWDw.facebook


Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:33am PT
Oh dear... this is terrible terrible news...

~Lifting up this talented young man all the way from the desert ... positive energy... positive vibes sent out into the universe for a positive outcome.



~peace
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Damm... Spirits to heal him... Improperly slung draws???
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:36am PT
From the comments section:

In a rough translation from the french website– it says that they had recently purchased new quickdraws, and that a young girl friend of the climber had improperly attached the carabiners to the dogbone, i.e. had attached the biner only to the plastic ‘anti-flip’ piece instead of the actual dogbone.

8 of the 12 draws that the climber was on before the fall were mounted that way….
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:36am PT

Damn. Wish the lil guy the best.



Damn
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:40am PT
Heard about this recently, broke my heart. Fight hard buddy! You gotta heal up and come to California, our weather is great and the bugs are almost gone :)
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:38am PT
Positive Vibe Bump
c_vultaggio

Trad climber
new york
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:42am PT
http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=de&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lastampa.it%2F2013%2F07%2F05%2Fcronaca%2Fil-nostro-tito-ora-e-un-angelo-e-morto-il-bambino-caduto-dalla-parete-LNBoIrtuWsBoUSTj1UGQfM%2Fpagina.html
10b4me

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:48am PT
condolences to the family
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:51am PT
What a tremendous loss... I cannot help but think of his parents... and their heartache ... it's heartbreaking... utterly heartbreaking.


Blessings to all... And remember to tell the ones who need to know... I and Love and You.


Edit:
HOWEVER, there is definitely fault here, and it is the climbers', predominantly.
With all due respect Ken... I don't think now is the time.


Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:00am PT
Dangerous business..
A reminder that you never get to comfortable and never take this game for granted .
I think about it everytime I climb with my kids
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Sad news. My sympathy to all involved.
jghedge

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:05am PT


Probably the worst accident in the history of sport climbing.
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Makes me sick, heavy hearted with the thought of another great climber that passed this day 4 years ago and I read this. Tragic. Having gone through this before I agree with Leggs, discretion should be used in our comments as family and friends have a hard enough time dealing without reading what they might view as negativity.
Peace
mooser

Trad climber
seattle
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:07am PT
This is sad, on top of sad.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:10am PT
So sad to read this story. My heart aches for the family and friends of that talented young man.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:12am PT
Having gone through this before I agree with Leggs, discretion should be used in our comments as family and friends have a hard enough time dealing without reading what they might view as negativity.

My thoughts exactly, Ron... thank you.

With a very heavy heart as a sport climber and the tears of a mother, I offer sincere condolences to the family.


~peace
Crackslayer

Trad climber
Eldo
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:19am PT
OMG this is awful. She threaded the biner through the plastic, seriously? A new low in terms of a preventable accident. Condolences to the family.

Hope the little guy is crushing it wherever he is now.
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:39am PT
Very sad and I agree with Leggs, now is not the time to tear apart what, why, where and all those parameters. Out of respect for Tito and his family, start another topic for that aspect and go to it.

RIP young lad.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:41am PT
Terrible... absolutely terrible. Let's try to keep the discussion cool here. Someone lost their boy.
pc

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Very sad to hear. Accidents happen and are painful and tragic. Warm thoughts to all...

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
WTF, this is terrible.

Probably the worst accident in the history of sport climbing.

I'd have to agree.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
So sad...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
In response to "now is not the time", Ken M said:
-Jul 5, 2013 - 11:28am No, it was ten minutes before the fall. but that didn't happen, did it? There is never a good time to discuss safety, is there? But when the sh#t hits the fan is the right time, because the deniers (helmets restrict freedom!) (New equipment doesn't need to be checked!) can't deny the facts But today is a new day, and all over the world there are 10 year olds about to go on belay. It is ten minutes before their climb. Saving the life of another 10 y/0 is a very real contribution that Tito could make.
Can you stop being a douchbag for a moment Ken? Just a for a moment. ..please?




I'm sure I speak for almost all here. My heart and thoughts goes out to the lil guys loved ones.

Manjusri

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
You're not helping with the namecalling couchmaster. Some people deal with grief by imagining little tito crushing in heaven, others by trying to use the moment to strategize against future tragedies. I think that this latter approach is constructive but I agree that this is best done in another thread.
CAMNOTCLIMB

Trad climber
novato ca
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
A sad event. Best to the parents and friends. Once again, please check your gear. Do it every time time you you tie in.

Brian
Matt's

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
from my understanding of the french website, it looks like a young girl (probably as old as Tito, but who knows) put together the draws by clipping the carabiner-->plastic holder-->dogbone. In other words, the carabiner was connected to the dogbone by a non-structural component.

given the age of everyone involved, it's a bit hard to judge these children too harshly.

what a tragic accident...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 5, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
I think that if I lost a child that I would want others not to suffer the same horrible experience, yet I still do not have any idea of what was done wrong here. Could people stop dancing around "dog bones" and come out with a clearly worded explanation.


Condolences to family and friends.
Rick A

climber
Boulder, Colorado
Jul 5, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Heartbreaking.
So sorry for family and friends
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 5, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Climbing is dangerous and has a casualty rate. If you're a member of a climbing community, you'll have friends die. At one point I stopped climbing because I thought it was only a matter of time before something happened to me. You're always in a zone of calculated risks, even with sport climbing. Whether 12 year old is old enough to be in this arena, I don't know.
msiddens

Trad climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Senseless tragic waste. Thoughts and prayers to the family....so very sorry.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
My prayers and condolences go out to this family....and all of the friends too...may they find peace.

So gut wrenching....
Squirrell

Boulder climber
Pebble wrestler ~ N. Cali under the bridge
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Rest in peace

http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/12-year-old-tito-traversa-dies-in-climbing-fall

http://www.climbing.com/news/superstar-preteen-climber-dies-after-fall/
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Hey Ron,

This is, perhaps, what caused the accident. No way to say for sure, but regardless - a good thing to be aware of.

http://vimeo.com/4138205

Regards to his family and friends and his community. Absolutely heart wrenching. Just terrible.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
That poor little girl.
Leggs

Sport climber
Tucson, AZ
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
Murcy ... I was thinking the same thing too ...

This really is just so heartbreaking... all the way around.


Again, peace and love to the family and group with Tito that fateful day.


~leggs
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 5, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
This is, perhaps, what caused the accident...
No, I don't think so. First of all you would have to have an open draw. (Petzl explicitly warns against this by the way.) And then the funky misclipping of the bottom biner would have to have been done on eight of the twelve draws; this just doesn't seem possible.

The rubber thingy in question either is or looks like this:


The quickdraw sling is inserted down from the top. The carabiner is clipped through the bottom. [The original explanation that followed didn't work; the sling would just have fallen out. But...]

Edits: when the carabiner is clipped through the bottom, it is supposed to go through the sling. But if it doesn't go through the sling, then the sling is just pinched by the rubber against the carabiner. Depending on the thingy involved and the thickness of the webbing and biner stock, the fit could be tight enough to hold the sling in place even though it isn't clipped into the carabiner.

Here is a video demonstrating how this might have happened, using a different rubber holder:


The following shot, from rc.com, http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2630465#2630465, illustrates another way in which a Petzl String brand of rubber keeper could be catastrophically misused:
Danger: Incorrect use of carabiner holder in sport draw
Danger: Incorrect use of carabiner holder in sport draw
Credit: rgold
The thin rubber ring holding everything together in the picture is only meant to keep the main rubber appliance from falling off if the carabiner is removed. The draws might have been set up this way originally, or they could have been incorrectly set up as in the first edit, in which case they would with look ok or would ``default'' to this configuration if the sling slipped out of the rubber holder.

An article in Grimper Magazine, http://www.grimper.com/news-mauvais-montage-degaines-utilisees-tito-traversa , describes what they say actually happened:

The rubber keeper
The rubber keeper
Credit: rgold

Danger! Incorrectly rigged draw
Danger! Incorrectly rigged draw
Credit: rgold

The draw "correctly" rigged, except that rubber keeper should be on th...
The draw "correctly" rigged, except that rubber keeper should be on the other biner, and gates should probably both face the same way.
Credit: rgold


What a terrible sad tragedy. My heart breaks for his parents.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Jul 5, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Wow so so terrible :,(
steve shea

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
Good grief! What a tragedy. Parents give your kids an extra hug tonight. I can't imagine how the parents are coping. Devastating. RIP little one.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jul 5, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
Thanks

I guess the take away is that when kids climb they need meticulous supervision right down to careful gear inspection.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jul 5, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Terrible tragedy and condolences to his family. I agree with Ron on the supervision thing.
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Jul 5, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
F$#k
MisterE

Social climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
This just breaks my heart - so much spirit lost so young.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 5, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Im surprised they would even hold the weight of the rope with just the snubbers not popping off the sling..TRAGIC...
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Any thoughts why they wouldn't have just bought the quick draws already assembled? And why there was no adult input / inspection in the process ... ?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
Someone could have bought the dogbones with the rubber retainer already attached(either sewn or threaded), in order to use biners they already own.

The retrofit retainer described by RGold is not attached to the dogbone and thus couldn't even hold the weight of the rope if done wrong, let alone 8 of them and no one noticing.
jghedge

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:18pm PT

They probably weren't "bought", but given to him by sponsors

I have to wonder a little about the actual circumstances - it was a 10+ warm-up, meaning he, a 5.14 climber, probably never weighted the draws until he got to the anchors - and even then, the anchors at French sport crags (especially on popular warm-ups) are fixed biners or shuts.

More than likely, I suppose, that he put his own draws on the anchor, clipped into them and weighted the rope, and then the draws failed.
jghedge

climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:19pm PT


"The retrofit retainer described by RGold is not attached to the dogbone and thus couldn't even hold the weight of the rope if done wrong,"


Light, skinny ropes.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Simply terrible news. Condolences to the family.
Michelle

Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
How terribly sad for everyone involved. I hope the little girl goes on to crush in his memory. Much love to his family, I can't imagine what they're going through.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
From various links, I gleaned they were bought and assembled by one of the kids in his group.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
I'm just speech-less. It's so horrible for the family. The poor kid who has to live with the guilt. It's awful for everyone involved. Check on each other folks.. even a 5.14 climber can miss something.

Deepest condolences to friends and family.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
its NOT the petzl syle snubber, i just tried it you cant even get the biner through the snubber without it popping off the sling.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
I agree. It had to be a system with the rubber already attached to the sling/dogbone.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
Any thoughts why...

Because people let their guard down... everyone does at some point... you see it all the time... don't pretend you haven't done it... it is a game of chances with serious consequences.

It is tragic. Establishing why anyone did or didn't do something seems pointless now. Always check the gear that is between you and the dirt... check your friend's gear... especially check fixed gear... don't get lazy.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
I edited my original explanation to one that seems more likely.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
So sad, so tragic. Far too young to die.

Condolences
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
I'm speculating it's those BD style draws where the rubber retainer is sewn inside the draw end (when threaded correctly you can't even see them). And while I agree we should respect the family's feelings at this horrible moment, it does warrant some serious discussion.
With so many kids, younger and younger all the time, climbing at very high levels you have to ask can a 12 year old truly understand the inherent risk of climbing?
The answer is no, regardless of how much training they have. There must be a parent or responsible adult involved at all times. I work with (and am responsible for) kids this age and quite simply they cannot be held responsible for themselves in a life or death situation like climbing (even something as "safe" as sportclimbing.)
It makes me sad and honestly really angry that this happened. I agree with Joe this is the worst sport climbing death ever.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
Jul 5, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Establishing why anyone did or didn't do something seems pointless now.


I disagree. True, it won't change this tragedy. The point is to prevent it from happening again.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
Johntp, I think the key word is "now." While I am certainly wondering myself, my mind is simply overwhelmed with the tragedy, and the grief and guilt that his family and companions must be suffering. My condolences to all.

John
ß Î Ø T Ç H

climber
?
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
... a young girl friend of the climber had improperly ... attached the biner only to the plastic ‘anti-flip’ piece instead of the actual dogbone.
“He was on a trip with a group of 10 kids and 3 adults ...”
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
It only takes a moment of misfocus and Old Man Gravity will do you hard. I'm still hobbling around because of it. But to lose someone so young is matter for God because I can't get my head around it. So very sorry for all. He was somebody's son.

JL
Anastasia

climber
Home
Jul 6, 2013 - 12:07am PT
The Loss of Life is never easy. Yeah Ron Gomez, I feel it too... Yet the loss of one's child so young seriously must be the worst. I know for a fact they won't ever really recover, they will just learn to live with always missing their son. Condolences to his parents, love to his family and friends.

AFS
jopay

climber
so.il
Jul 6, 2013 - 03:21am PT
Very sad indeed, I agree with the supervision comments, but I also can only imagine how the supposed young friend must feel and the burden of knowing your actions caused such a terrible accident. My condolences to all.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 6, 2013 - 04:15am PT
Tragic. It does highlight the simple fact that grade numbers do not mean anything. we get awed by 5.14 but haveing the physical abilitys to climb big numbers does not gaurente the experience level and rigging skills to be safe outdoors.... had the kids been less talented it is likly they would have had more supervision... then again experience is no gaurentee of safty either....

Peace and light..
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 6, 2013 - 06:06am PT
Conversation regarding the cause of this incident seems more fitting for another thread, considering the title of this one, which may draw family here.

Perhaps we should leave condolences here only...our sage advice is not necessary at this time and place.

It should be noted that Tito's parents agreed to have his organs donated, so that others might live.

Tito's legacy lives on.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 6, 2013 - 08:37am PT
I don't know what to say -- I'm so sorry, my heart goes out to family & friends.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Jul 6, 2013 - 08:55am PT
Oh, this is so very, very sad. There's nothing else to say right now.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jul 6, 2013 - 11:57am PT
If we look at the history of some of the most tragic climbing accidents; Jim Madsen, Todd Skinner, Bachar,.... we see that even very experienced adult climbers can do something careless and pay the ultimate price. We've all read JL's classic piece about how he nearly missed that sequence in JT, free climbing with Bachar; who would have guessed that he would be laid up for months because of a 60 footer in a climbing gym?

The point is, all we adults are capable of lapses and doing dumb things at times. I hope and pray that the girl involved in the quick draws thing can somehow imbibe this perspective, that these things can happen even with mature adults, and so she will not take it quite so hard.
Fletcher

Trad climber
The great state of advaita
Jul 6, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
My heart, prayers, and peace go out to all connected to this terrible accident.

Eric
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Jul 6, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
He was a bravo ragazzo with a true passion for climbing. I am surrounded by kids his age right now and he's in my head and my heart right now.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 7, 2013 - 11:22am PT
I edited my previous response in this thread a second time in order to indicate another possible way the failure happened. See http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2175804&msg=2176075#msg2176075.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 7, 2013 - 11:34am PT
Thanks RGold. This is the scenario I envisioned, but couldn't find a pic. Any manufacturer using 'keeper' methods that allow easy biner attachment to the rubber only should change their design.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 7, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
To his family and friends

From halfway around the world please know we too were inspired and are grieving with you.

Perhaps he passed the test that life sometimes seems and was called home early.
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Jul 7, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
that is a crap design
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 7, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
Petzl snubbers work well. i have some that are now 24 yrs old, still perfect condition.. There is NOW WAY you can slot a biner into ONLY the rubber without ejecting the draw or sling. Perhaps they were hooked up with the rubber sales attachment, but HOW would ANYONE not notice that. ANYONE...
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
True enough Aspendougy. True True True.

I lost a climbing partner and friend, young Pat Savageau (fr Ann Arbor & Santa Cruz, age 21?) back about 12 years ago. Terrifically bright and talented in many ways.

With other people, not me, he was doing a climb in the Needles here in CA and got to the anchors. I think it was On Thin Ice. He then lowered off only to find he hadn't even finished tying in at the start. So So sad.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jul 7, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
RIP young Tito.

And for all those saying "no no no, we can't talk about the accident itself" those who knew him way better than us already are:

Eric Hörst
We've been off the grid climbing in Ten Sleep Canyon, WY for a couple days and we just heard the horrible news of Tito's passing. For my non-climbing friends in Lancaster, Tito was in many ways Cameron's Italian counterpart as their climbing achievements have paralleled each other the past 3 years. Sadly, this accident was totally avoidable--a tragic equipment screw up & failure. RIP Tito. http://climbing.about.com/b/2013/07/06/italian-climbing-child-prodigy-dies-in-french-accident.htm

Robyn Erbesfield-Raboutou
Buddy check every time kiddos including your gear! RIP Tito Traversa. So sad and totally avoidable.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 7, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
I've again updated my post on possible ways this tragic failure could have happened, this time with a video demonstration someone posted. See http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2175804&msg=2176075#msg2176075.

It seems far better to have all this information in one place rather then spread throughout the thread in different posts. My apologies to anyone who commented on the original post and whose comments now seem out of whack with the current material.

I might add that although the information is speculative, it represents things that could really go wrong, whether or not they were the exact things that actually did go wrong in Tito's tragedy. For this reason I consider it valuable to disseminate.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 7, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
Thanks RGold,, those other styled snubbers appear to be the issue id bet. I knew they werent the petzls..


Tape still works GREAT though. And seemingly more bomb proof. Although i never foresaw such an accident.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 7, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
hey there say all... oh my, i am way to late to everything, these last days...


my condolences and prayers to the family and loved ones...
this is so very very sad, :(


very sad to hear this...
prayers to all that were involved, :(
SeanYang

Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 7, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
It is a very sad to learn Tito's passing. This however is not the first time this type of rubber keepers has been involved in a climbing death. In June 2010 at New River Gorge, a female climber fell from an anchor because Both biners on her personal anchor system were accidentally clipped off the slings. The rubber keepers actually kept the biners on until she leaned back (to be lowered?) and the biners and rubbers were torn off the slings.

This can happen (though with low probability) if BOTH biners are accidentally clipped off the sling -- as if one is to remove a biner from a sling, leaving only the rubber holding the biner and sling together.

Sean

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2348797;search_string=petzel%20rubber%20accident;#2348797
SeaClimb

climber
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:04am PT
As a father of several kids who climb at astronomic levels, we became aware of the accident last week and knew it wasn't going to end well. Our situation was somewhat sobering. We were at the US Youth Nationals and here we were watching some of America's best youth climbing their young hearts out.

When we learned of Tito's passing, it staggered my 13 year old son. He broke down, crying, devastated, destroyed for the day. It brought myself, my wife and many parents there to their knees. Here we were, in this situation, watching these youth (some are our own childrent)crushing and so full of life and passion.

We have friends overseas right now who are native French speakers and the scenario described in the local French newspapers is the closest to the situation shown in the video. We traded text after text and i kept insisting it couldn't be this way. I was thinking it was the alpine draw issue/trapped biner with strands clipped/daisy pocket tearout problem. In fact Petzl warns of this issue on their site. They kept saying no...its even dumber/simpler than that. RandI has a decent writeup of what may have happened.

We conversed with other parents ALOT. None of them grasped what was being explained. This video shows this possibility. While not confirmed that this is actually what happened it is plausible.

I MADE THIS VIDEO with my wife to explain what was possible to do after my sons finished climbing for the day. We tried several different makes and only this style could actually hold enough weight to withstand rope drag and clipping, hanging, etc. It surprisingly held 10-15 pounds or so. The dogbone had to be inserted just so for it to do this.

I am so devastated by this. As i type this, i am preparing to leave for France this morning with my own boy.

Peace to everyone involved. It will be hard to find and reconcile. Hopefully the ultimate sacrifice that Tito unwittingly made will serve as a warning to triple check everything everytime all the time. Perhaps the point of his life crushing 5.14's at such a young age was to raise his visibility? Struggling to find some type of meaning in what is so utterly devastating and terrible and meaningless....

Rudy
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:37am PT
Rudy. hopefully this tradgedy will raise awareness that regardless of the grade number that kids climb they are still kids.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 8, 2013 - 06:29am PT
Those long rubber retainers, like the one in SeaClimb's video, seem like the most likely scenario. Still, there have been accidents using the Petzl device with the rubber string keeper.
Morgan

Trad climber
East Coast
Jul 9, 2013 - 07:05am PT
http://www.grimper.com/news-mauvais-montage-degaines-utilisees-tito-traversa
house of cards

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 07:29am PT
Tito's father is now calling for mandatory use of helmets. He says "institutions should make the use of helmets mandatory."

http://www.lastampa.it/2013/07/07/cronaca/mio-figlio-e-morto-perche-si-e-fidato-di-qualcun-altro-BoLGWqyJHVA7WETFSDHPKP/pagina.html






justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Jul 9, 2013 - 07:44am PT
Why stop at helmets? Helmets are a start, but a helmet wouldn't have saved this kid.

I was thinking more along the lines of.. making pre-inspection of all personal gear (harness/rope/draws) mandatory prior to any formal competition. I'm surprised liability issues don't mandate it already.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:14am PT
A crude translation:

The risks, as in all sports, are there. Falling in free climbing is expected. At most, though, you can break an ankle. You can not and you should not die.

I wonder where the father got this concept of climbing, that it's safe and someone must be to blame for the accident. The sense of security in sport climbing may be a little dangerous in itself.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:16am PT
Decking from 80' on draws that were rigged improperly and focus is on helmets??
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:22am PT
For once, I agree with you, Ron.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:30am PT
This helmet talk is ridiculus.

Two things had to go wrong for Tito to die. One, he didn't recognize an error. Two, a qualified adult was not supervising the climbing.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:34am PT
This is a translation from the climbing school's home page.


The causes and unfortunately we know why so much atrocity has condensed into an error so trivial and so devious as to deceive even the most experienced climber

I'd have to disagree.


Tito is gone. Certainly not us to communicate it to the world. The news crowd the columns of all the newspapers: the front page, on the local news in the sports pages. Even the journalists know sdoganare dismay at such a loss that goes far beyond the loss of a life. Tito's death also brings with it the bitter taste of defeat and betrayal of who we love the most. How can climb in the second millennium kill a child? The causes and unfortunately we know why so much atrocity has condensed into an error so trivial and so devious as to deceive even the most experienced climber. This episode will be for the whole movement scalatorio a huge setback. Tito will forever be a symbol of high hazard and risk of our sport, forgetting what this child had accounted for all. Tito was life, new hope. Tito was the seed that just climbing in young people was the sap and oxygen throughout the movement, and we hope you can still find it.

Many mass media these days are turning into poison Tito. It has unleashed a ruthless hunt for the culprit who is looking for a new victim, forcing us to never forget that if you can identify a culprit, this is already a victim of the events of July 2. If the priority is to cry a sample in less, if the imperative is to look for the culprit to give explanation to the tragedy of Titus and his parents, let us remember that for all those who remain this episode will be a wound that will never stop bleeding.

A painful thought we want to turn to parents, private forever of their oxygen, which can possibly find in the lives of other people, in which the bodies of Titus will return hope.

A thought also address present at the time of the accident sunk in the dark and all of us, emotionally involved in this affair, that we look stunned, unable to find words. We will come back to climb for a period we pay more attention to our material and perhaps justice will give us an answer, but would like this to come later.

The urgency is to lock ourselves in a painful silence that can accompany the peace that only Tito has found.

Hello, little Titus.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:51am PT
From Morgan's link:

(google translation) Improper installation of slings used by Tito Traversa

The rubber retainer:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#310231


Incorrectly assembled:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#310229

Correctly assembled:

photo not found
Missing photo ID#310230
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jul 9, 2013 - 09:01am PT
un real...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 09:41am PT
I added these photos to my post http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2175804&tn=20#msg2176075 , accumulating all the ways identified so far to dangerously mis-rig a draw.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jul 9, 2013 - 09:42am PT
Attempts to eliminate all risk from climbing is logical but also a move in removing all adventure and seriousness from the sport. It's a very tricky business, and another reminder that attempts to reduce climbing to merely physical movement is probably impossible so long as Old Man Gravity is out there.

JL
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jul 9, 2013 - 09:52am PT
Wow. My condolences to all involved. What a horrible way to loose such a young soul.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:02am PT
I agree with Largo. Unfortunately, we can create an illusion of safety without, however, having actually achieved that goal. The problem with that illusion is that it becomes all too easy to forget about the mortal dangers lurking just behind a surface of casual good fun, and then a momentary lapse of attention becomes a life-altering or life-ending catastrophe. It is incredibly sad that Edward Whymper's words, written in 1872 after his tragedy on the first ascent of the Matternorn, have lost none of their immediacy for us today, in spite of all the advances in technique and equipment:

"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.”

I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:09am PT
From the perspective of "take initiative to make things better", I would challenge anyone who is reading this thread to think if there is a way they can personally make a difference going forward.

I just sent an email to the manager of my local climbing gym, asking them if news of this incident would be valuable to pass on in their advanced youth programs. If you sell climbing equipment, work at a gym, teach or climb with younger climbers, you can help.

Yes, risk cannot be eliminated from climbing, but as a community we can look for ways to help each other.

Phyl
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:15am PT
JL wrote: Attempts to eliminate all risk from climbing is logical but also a move in removing all adventure and seriousness from the sport. It's a very tricky business, and another reminder that attempts to reduce climbing to merely physical movement is probably impossible so long as Old Man Gravity is out there.



I agree for a adult making his own choices...for a 12 year old in a group setting, every piece of gear, harness and rope should be checked by a qualified adult.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:18am PT
Rgold wrote: I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match.

Isn't that a choice a person should make and not a community of climbers?


There are thousands of routes with a high pucker factor still waiting to be done.


This was 12 year old kid out with a group of other kids and adults. The adults f*#k-up. Period.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:23am PT
Rgold wrote: I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match.

Isn't that a choice a person should make and not a community of climbers?

In principle, yes. But "the community," whatever that is, can try to make sure people realize what the choices really are. I'm not at all sure everyone involved fully realizes the choices they are making, and the standard disclaimers, "climbing is dangerous..." seem to have little or no effect.

There are thousands of routes with a high pucker factor still waiting to be done.

Sure, but I don't see what that has to do with the issues at hand. The problems we are speaking of are the ones that occur when no "pucker factor" is apparent.

This was 12 year old kid out with a group of other kids and adults. The adults f*#k-up. Period.

But, if true, why exactly did the adults f*#k up? Contemplating this brings you right back to my comments.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Richard...5.11/5.12 r/x is pretty easy to figure out, at least to me it is. The adults in the group blew it a child lost his life. Really sad.

Maybe see you in October for the reunion.


Richard wrote: But, if true, why exactly did the adults f*#k up? Contemplating this brings you right back to my comments.

Checking the equipment/quickdraws.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Looking forward to that Bob. Be well.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:34am PT
I'm doing great Richard...looking forward to seeing everyone. Hope you doing well too?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:54am PT
When I took the driver's ed. course in high school, I had a total nutcase for a teacher. All he did was scare us. The whole curriculum was about the different ways to die in a car. I thought it was a waste of time since all that stuff should be obvious. Well, I was only 16.

When I learned rock climbing I had no one to teach me and there was no gym or even a real climbing area nearby. I found a book, Learning to Rock Climb, by Michael Laughman, starring this really burly looking lady who posed for the pictures. Then I got piece of goldline, maybe 5 biners and started drafting my friends as belayers. I had no clue at all but I was aware of that and of the responsibility I was taking on. As time went on, it seemed I was always doing the leading and climbing with people who had less experience. Pushing your limits as a trad leader is a very conservative way to learn, and served me well.

Now you can just take a lesson at a gym, plug into a gri gri, and go for it. The beginners today start in a different place and learn totally different things. Plus the social scene is like a party, instead of gathering up the courage to do an onsight lead, that's scary.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:02am PT
Don wrote: Now you can just take a lesson at a gym, plug into a gri gri, and go for it. The beginners today start in a different place and learn totally different things. Plus the social scene is like a party, instead of gathering up the courage to do an onsight lead, that's scary.


This kid was 12 years old...with adults in the party. Comparing the way you learned and "your courage" has nothing to do with this situation.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:19am PT
The kid was warming up. 8 of 12 Draws failed. Courage? You're a tw#t.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Sorry, did not mean to offend anyone. My point was only that there is a more serious attitude toward trad climbing than sport. Peace.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:29am PT
Credit: michaeld
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:31am PT
Quote HThis was 12 year old kid out with a group of other kids and adults. The adults f*#k-up. Period.ere

The brain, especially the frontal cortex involved in decision making and judgement, is not fully developed until 25 years of age.
12 year old kids have absolutely no business climbing without supervision - obviously ..

That's how the adults f*#ked up... for those asking the question.


Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:32am PT
I almost died several times in my first few years of climbing (age 17). Unfinished knots due to migraines brought on by dehydration, rock fall, pulling gear, improperly threaded belay devices, etc. We had no adults to check anything... just some beer, weed, and cid. We lucked out.

People get way too lazy at sport crags these days. I've seen so many people start tying their knots, then do something else, then discuss beta for 3 min, then finish their knots. The whole time I am on high alert, watching them like a hawk until they finish the knot. I'm the stressed out jackass who points out they should ALWAYS finish tying or untying their knots before doing anything else. "Yeah, I know..." then they send their 5.14 whatever. I also check every fixed draw as I clip it... I've found several with webbing worn 3/4 of the way through from rubbing on the rock that people were still taking whippers on... they had no idea. I replaced them.

This is really sad. It was a simple mistake with horrific consequences. This sport has horrific consequences and it is easy to make simple mistakes.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:34am PT
the frontal cortex involved in decision making and judgement, is not fully developed until 25 years of age

Winning answer.
Winning answer.
Credit: darkmagus
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:34am PT
Dr.Christ wrote: This is really sad. It was a simple mistake with horrific consequences. This sport has horrific consequences and it is easy to make simple mistakes.

Do you have any idea what happened in this situation?


The kid was 12 years old with adults in the group.

What really sad is the climbers here comparing their (trad background) to this situation. Makes me ill.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:40am PT
Yeah, I have some idea of what happened in this situation, but I wasn't there so I don't know exactly. I don't think it helps anything to assign blame at this point, other than for others to learn from the mistake.

If someone gets hurt at the crag, I generally blame everyone in the area... which is why I usually leave areas that take on the casual party scene atmosphere typical at many crags... especially if younguns are around.

I think those comparing it to their trad experience are just too deeply rooted in their "trad is way more pure/serious/extreme/real than spurt climbing" mentality... which always makes me ill, regardless of the context.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:53am PT
The kids was given faulty quickdraws from a adult who was in the group. He was with his climbing group...the adults blew it this one. He was 12 years and didn't have to die.

The only good that can come out of this is that these people who are with these kids should be qualified and should have a checklist to check all gear before the kids start to climb.
WBraun

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:59am PT
There's no way around it.

Bob D'A has it right.

A 12 year old kid is under the supervision of adults.

There's no way around it .....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
"7/5/13 – Tito Traversa, an Italian climber who just turned 12 years old in April and had already climbed several 5.14 sport routes, has died from injuries suffered in a ground fall at the French crag Orpierre. According to the website of the French magazine Grimper, Traversa was lowering off a 5.10+ route he had climbed as a warm-up when eight of the 12 quickdraws on the route failed, sending him on a ground fall of some 25 meters (82 feet). After three days in a coma in a nearby hospital, Traversa died from his injuries.

According to Grimper, the young climber was using quickdraws that another member of his group had recently purchased. The report indicates that the person assembled the quickdraws incorrectly, passing the clipping carabiner solely through the rubber-band “keeper” attached to the draw, instead of through the full-strength loop of the quickdraw. Unfortunately, the eight bad quickdraws were placed in the upper half of the route that Traversa climbed, and no one noticed the error in time.

Traversa did his first 5.14a at age 10 and had completed many more extremely difficult routes, including his fourth 14a just two days before his accident."
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
I'm not arguing with you D'A. At this point, what do you hope to accomplish by assigning blame? Obviously other adults should learn from this mistake and obviously adults are responsible for the kids they take climbing... but pointing the finger at the adults involved in this incident may just result in them pointing a gun to their heads... I know I probably would if a kid died on my watch.

another member of his group had recently purchased

And if that other member was a 12-year old as well... you think hashing out who is to blame on the (impersonal and often harsh) intardweb is going to help them overcome the loss of Tito and the associated guilt they may feel?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
The "blame" is pretty obvious to me...no equipment failure, nothing to do with trad vs sport and nothing to do gyms climbers/outside climbers.

What I would hope happen is that the adults taking these kids be qualified and use a checklist for all equipment and check all knots.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Dr who wrote: And if that other member was a 12-year old as well... you think hashing out who is to blame on the (impersonal and often harsh) intardweb is going to help them overcome the loss of Tito and the associated guilt?


One of the parents of the kids put the quickdraws together that way.

I have loss a child...you never overcome it.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
^^ Sorry for your loss.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Sad and so stupid. My condolences to his Parents, Family and Friends.



When I started taking my 12 YO daughter out climbing and I became the responsable one - the whole deal of safety changed for me. I checked everything and did not relax intill we were back at the car.



rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
There's no way around it.

Bob D'A has it right.

Yes, there is no way around it and Bob is right...as far as he goes. My previous post was an attempt to address a (if I may say so) more important question, which is why the adults didn't think to check the draws, how it is that belayers lower people off the end of the rope, how it happens that people start up a route with the rope simply draped through the harness tie-in points, all these things and so many more in situations in which there are no environmental or physical stresses to impair judgement or force hastiness.

The fact of the matter is people make mistakes. All of us have. Those of us who are here to argue with each other are the lucky ones who weren't killed by their errors. This doesn't "excuse" the making of mistakes, but it raises a perfectly reasonable question: how can we make fewer mistakes? That was the context in which I suggested, vaguely to be sure, that we need more fear.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Richard wrote: Yes, there is no way around it and Bob is right...as far as he goes.

Wow..that is a little harsh. When adults take children out they are the leaders/responsible ones.

Rgold...I tried to address your questions..you just didn't like my answers.

The adults should have checked the gear. Plan and simple.


Guyman wrote: When I started taking my 12 YO daughter out climbing and I became the responsable one - the whole deal of safety changed for me. I checked everything and did not relax intill we were back at the car.


The above post say it all for me.

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Gosh Bob, I certainly intended no harshness. And no my friend, you didn't and haven't addressed my questions. I don't mind your answers, but they aren't answers to what I'm asking. You keep saying the adults didn't check, which is beyond contention. My question is why didn't they check, and that's what you haven't addressed. Not, by the way, that I actually would expect some pat answer to that question, it was primarily rhetorical.

By the way, I think it was said that the adults gave the kids faulty draws. I don't think that is at all clear. Of course the adults purchased the draws, but another kid assembled them, as stated in the Grimper article: "Voici donc le montage des dégaines...réalisé par un des adolescents du groupe..." Whether the assembled faulty draws passed directly from the kid who put them together to Tito or whether they passed through inattentive adult hands first is not known.

This doesn't change the fact that those in charge had a responsibility to check things. But we might also reflect on the fact that they might never have imagined that the draws could or would be incorrectly assembled.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Richard wrote: My question is why didn't they check, and that's what you haven't addressed.

You didn't asked that in your post...your questions were gray area to me.

"Rgold wrote: I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match."

Seems gray to me but I could be wrong.

I feel for the parents and the adults who were there...they will never recover from this tragedy but hopefully these groups/gyms will set up systems from this ever happening again.




rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Bob, to quote the next post, which is the one you found harsh,

My previous post was an attempt to address a (if I may say so) more important question, which is why the adults didn't think to check the draws, how it is that belayers lower people off the end of the rope, how it happens that people start up a route with the rope simply draped through the harness tie-in points, all these things and so many more in situations in which there are no environmental or physical stresses to impair judgement or force hastiness.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
I agree with that...should have taken more time to read your full post. I saw it as turning into another trad vs sport thing.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Not to worry Bob, my full posts are, unfortunately...full. What they are full of is another question.

By the way, I don't see this type of thing as being part of some dichotomy between trad and sport. But it is connected to what I see as a pervasive casualness about climbing in general. In my limited experience, I've seen more trad examples than sport examples, but the reverse seems to be the case when you read the news.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
Risk and climbing.. what a complex topic. Especially when concerning young children for whom their safety is ultimately the responsibility of adults and the tragedy when we fail them is the worst of tragedies.

In the end there is no way to remove all risk. Yet clearly this was an accident that was avoidable. Lots of tings went wrong. Bad design.. lapse of judgement in assembly, lack of checking gear you are not familiar with personally. Perhaps lack of adult supervision

Yep we need to look at ways to avoid this chain of errors. There are several pieces of advice here of which any one could avoid the same problem in the future. I hope this loss may save others in the future.

Regarding risk though. Climbing is a vast sport with myriads of combinations of difficulty and risk.

Sometimes you want to take on the risk side of the reward equation.. other days you want a nice toprope and fun in the sun. It's all available in this sport. I think it's all worth doing at different times when it's what you want to do.

I have no problem at all with the desire to take as much risk as possible out of SOME forms of climbing.. hell I am ALWAYS looking for ways to minimize risk and still climb what I want to climb. Regardless it's impossible to eliminate it completely and we all roll the dice.. some more.. some less.



tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
I would venture a guess that if the kid involved was not a 5.14 climber that there would have been more/better supervision. The adults possibly are in awe of the kids climbing ability and forget that he was just a kid. Numbers don't mean anything. gravity does not care what the grade of the climb is.

To say that anyone would be tricked by those improperly rigged draws is rediculous. the only other accident i am aware of with those type of draws was a young woman...
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
It isn't just kids.
It's adults also.
All the time when I'm at the crags
I see people NOT following safe climbing rules.

From not saying the proper and long standing commands, making up their own commands, not checking their gear before climbing. the list goes on and on.

I LOVE it when someone gets to the top of a climb and says, Ok.
Ok what?
Sheesh, what am I, a mind reader?

Ever since I started climbing back in the 60s, there was a STANDARD climbing commands vocabulary. Stick to it. and check your gear and
every thing else each and every time you set off to climb,
or,








"YER GONNA DIE!!!!"

I Don't mean to be so harsh and I really feel awful about Tito,
but If safety isn't followed more, more kids and adults are gonna
end up the same way.
Climbing is dangerous to begin with,but I'll bet there are more deaths caused by climbers error, and not following or double checking your safety
checklist!

michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
I don't think the grades the kid was able to climb has anything to do with it. Safety gear is safety gear. I'm sure it could of happened to any other kid in the group.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
it raises a perfectly reasonable question: how can we make fewer mistakes? That was the context in which I suggested, vaguely to be sure, that we need more fear.

Yep we need to look at ways to avoid this chain of errors.

If you look to commercial, professional and military 'risk procedures' you will find there are proven, effective ways to deal with the risk of complacency. They are time honored and they work. Watch a commercial airline pilot get a plane ready to depart - now apply that rigor to climbing. If we as a group did this? Complacency errors will be greatly diminished. Not eliminated, but greatly reduced.

But we're a free spirited lot and a lot of us can't be bothered with protocol rigor, until, sadly, it may be too late. And many of us never bothered to train for complacency in any real way, anywhere in our lives and therefore may not even recognize it.

I'm as guilty as the next climber, perhaps more so and have only dodged death or worse, by dumb luck and fortunate grace.

DMT
Dr. X

Big Wall climber
X- Town
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
I'm a little late to this party, and terribly saddened by the loss of a child. A thought came to mind though (and sorry if this has already been hashed over, I did not read the previous 400 posts prior to writing this).

I don;t know if Tito's parents are in this category (and I honestly think not), but I was at the gym the other night (I know, generally against the Doctor's morals), and I saw several parents, clearly non-climbers, who brought their kids to the gym to climb.

Well, I would imagine you can get top a point where a child starts to become physically very proficient, and maybe mildly proficient at the mechanics of sport climbing, from spending so much time at the gym.

Now, when these same kids start climbing outside, who is their mentor? Their parents aren't climbers.....Only their peers, also kids. Will this be a growing future problem? Don't know. Thought this might be the forum to start thinking and talking about it though......
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
I'm sure Tito's parents' had no worries in their mind when they sent their child off to go climb with the Climbing Gym group, as they have probably let him go time and time before.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
One of the parents of the kids put the quickdraws together that way.

I have loss a child...you never overcome it.

My best friend in 4th grade killed himself. His dad and my dad were good friends. I saw the agony, the howling, weeping, sobbing, heartache, depression. I can't even imagine what that felt like.

How can anyone ever overcome the sense of responsibility for this tragedy? Damn.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
I don't think there can be anything more painful for a parent than outliving a child.

But please lets not make it worse by circulating things that aren't true. The parents did not assemble the quick draws, another kid in Tito's climbing group did. We don't know if the parents saw the quickdraws before Tito used them. There is tragedy enough to go around as it is.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
And rehashing who did what here is NOT going to help anyone, especially those directly involved.

There is tragedy enough to go around as it is.

Exactly.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Michald. if the kids were 5.8 bumblies they would have had direct adult supervision. Because they were climbing very high numbers the adults assume that they know what they are doing with the rest of it.
house of cards

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
Because they were climbing very high numbers the adults assume that they know what they are doing with the rest of it.

That would seem like a natural assumption, even if deeply flawed. Perhaps more attention should be placed to teaching kids "the rest of it", not only coaching them up to the high numbers.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 07:54am PT
An incredible and seemingly senseless tragedy.

How can anyone ever overcome the sense of responsibility for this tragedy?


I imagine all those at the scene will never really overcome the feeling of guilt, how could nobody see the mistake? Hard to say this, but you would think even Tito himself would spot the funky draws as he racked up.

We get lulled into complacency, we see folks falling all the time and amazingly our gear works, every time. While it always feels odd, my good buddy checks my knot every time I tie in for a TR at the gym. Even my harness, each time. At first this bothered me. But then I realized he did it out of love and caring for me, and now I try to do the same for all my climbing partners. If nothing else, it's a reminder that this is indeed a sport that can hurt you.

Peace to all those affected.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:42am PT
but you would think even Tito himself would spot the funky draws as he racked up.


He's 12. F*ck.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:44am PT
I'm not sure I would have noticed if somebody handed me draws while I was racking up. I think quite a few of use would have missed it too.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 10, 2013 - 10:16am PT
I agree Mono! Who thinks to check how draws have been assembled? Tragically, a lot of people will now.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 10, 2013 - 10:19am PT
hey there say, monolith...

oh my, :(
thank you for posting these demo pictures, a ways back, of the
rubber pieces and the loops and metal clips, (don't know the tech word)
and HOW they fit... i did not understand how this set-up was not seen, or done right, etc... now i see...

:(

i am a mommy and gramma, so i hope, in this sense, it is okay to share this--though i do not know of the 'physical body' part of climbing:


i DO know about the brain, though, and how it can 'play tricks' at times,
something you can 'think' you see what you should see, IF your brain is
in READY position for a new chore (the habit feature that kicks in) THAT
is why our 'knowledge, skill, practice, and precaution' area of the brain
NEEDS to be honed, and then LISTENED to...

i have a problem with 'transposing' (flipping opposites, or combos of yes/no pairs, IF i am in a hurry) so i understand how VERY VERY SERIOUS it is to CHECK AND RECHECK even if we 'feel silly' or others think we are 'weird' or over-reacting, :(


i am so very sorry to see what the 'closer look' at this situation WAS, :o


i can also see how a young child (if they did look at their gear fast) may not even have noticed--the brain 'trick' (optical illusions, as well, as to certain pictures, it sees, that are similar to other pictures) :(

we MUST teach kids to check and recheck and EVALUATE EXACTLY what it is that they ARE seeing or ARE NOT seeing... then--it will click into the brain, faster than a GLANCE...

of course, this goes for OLDER climbers as well, as, it is not
fully comprehended yet, to older folks but:

YOUR eyes and brain DO register DIFFERENT as well, when you age, you MAY
run on HABIT MORE and think things are okay...

also, things are not deciphered right, due to 'far-sightedness' ...
and depth perception changes... you may THINK something is tied on,
from a distance WHEN in fact, it is not, :O



once again, my deep condolences to the family, and my on-going prayers for the father and all concerned... this was so awful, :(



please, i usually do not post such things in sad thread like this ( i did once, long ago, and it was a boo boo, when i first came here) but:

in this case, DUE TO seeing and reading what THE BEAUTIFUL BRAIN CAN DO, and how it can TRICK us, as wonderful as it is:

i just HAD to share this info... our brain gets on 'auto pilot' at times, and, sometimes we NEED to CONTINUAL set it on NEW IMMEDIATE 'ALERTS'...

climbing, as all we do, is really brainwork, first and foremost,
at the foundation--hone this brainwork...

OTHERTIMES, TOO, it can block out things that it has reckoned
'are not part of the moment at hand':
ex: things LOOK well, therefore, they are...
(processing is a SERIOUS ISSUE of before, during and after CONNECTIONS, along with covering the 'what ifs')

:(


as you are all climbers that i love, may any, some, or all, of this
BRAIN INFO, help folks, in some ways...

god bless...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
I am not in general a fan of Andrew Bisharat's writing. But I think he gets it right here:

http://eveningsends.com/2013/07/tito-traversa-death/
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 10, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
I don't fully agree with Bisharat.

Of course, setting up the draws in that wrong configuration is an incredibly stupid error to have made, obviously one born of inexperience. It’s something I can’t possibly imagine anyone ever doing. Obviously the person who made this mistake looked at a properly racked draw, and tried to recreate what she or he saw. It was a horrible mistake. But it was also a freak mistake—something none of us could’ve ever predicted.

As we know, if the worst-case scenario can happen, the universe sometimes conspires to show us that it will.

This isn’t the first time a climber has died because of someone’s inexperience. And it won’t be the last. But this was an accident that could’ve happened to any of us, regardless of age, gender, experience.

I don't think an adult would have been nearly as likely to wrongly assemble the QD's--whoever did was not necessarily of low intelligence, but just someone who was completely ignorant about important aspects of the way the world works (rubber bands are not particularly strong; webbing used in climbing equipment is).
I have to think kids are far more likely to be ignorant, in ways that we won't be able to predict but which may have catastrophic consequences.
That's why they need more supervision and perhaps more detailed training, and we shouldn't disregard the youth of the people involved in this tragedy.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 10, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
I completely disagree with that analysis. The accident was caused by human error and as such there are methodologies to follow that can limit the risk and prevent these occurences. The airline industry is a great example of how process improvment has saved countless lives.

In fact, this was the first day of Tito’s life that he went climbing outdoors without his father there

Cant imagine what that must be like.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 10, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
In the photo in that article, even the "correctly racked" draw has the keeper on the wrong (anchor) end of the draw.

Credit: murcy
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jul 10, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
I agree with Port...this was a human error and not a equipment error. Hopefully these clubs/gyms will make it mandatory that all gear is check out by qualified adult/adults when taking these kid groups out.
Alan Rubin

climber
Amherst,MA.
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Human error made easier by poorly-designed equipment. Surely on certain types of quick draws it is very difficult to get the biner through both the sling and rubber "keeper"--at least for someone as ham-handed as myself. I can see how someone, not only a child (but obviously more likely with someone young and/or inexperienced) could think they got the "nose" of the biner through the sling material when, in fact, they'd squeezed it between the sling material and the rubber. That is human error, sure, but one that could be less likely with either a better design (and, no, I don't have one)or by having the draws pre-assembled (though this doesn't solve the problem when one has to replace worn slings on still good biners). But a horrible and terribly sad tragedy whatever the cause.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
I don't think an EXPERIENCED adult would have been nearly as likely...

If you have ever worked in a gear shop you know just how clueless inexperienced adults can be. And if you have ever read the stupidtaco, you know just how stupid some adults can be, even the "experienced" ones.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
No effin way a serious adult climber falls for that setup. saying anything else is simply trying to make the girl feel better.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
Who said anything about a "serious adult climber?" My impression is that it was a KID.

Are you opposed to making a KID who just lost their FRIEND due to a MISTAKE feel good?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Human error made easier by poorly-designed equipment.

I suppose you might say it's poorly designed in retrospect, but I wouldn't really fault the manufacturer--I just don't think it would occur to anyone who has the slightest idea how climbing equipment works to set up the draws that way.
I don't see this as the assembler making a "mistake" in the sense of mis-threading something or forgetting to do a process step; she just didn't understand what the hell was going on at such a fundamental level that it would be hard for a designer to even contemplate that someone would do what she did.
It's like someone who thinks a harness gear loop will hold substantial force and tying into it--you can get a harness that guards against that with fortified gear loops, but I wouldn't say normal harnesses are "poorly designed."
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
The Petzl version without the plastic keeper (first one shown in RGolds post), is very difficult to screw up.
Dr. Christ

Mountain climber
State of Mine
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
I'm confident people can find a way to screw up pretty much ANY equipment, eventually.
Gene

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
poorly-designed equipment.


A couple of thoughts:

Do those plastic holders really do anything? Do they make clipping that much easier? Or are they an unnecessary doo-dad bling accessory? Some dog bones I have seen have very tight loops and require a bit of effort to thread the biner. I ask because KISS matters.

At 12 years of age, Tito would have been starting middle school in September if he were local. He’d be four years shy of being able to drive a car. Lack of competent supervision – complacency – is the cause of his passing. So sad.

g

monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 10, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Do we need to balance the simple convenience needs of many against the deaths of a few?

In the end I guess it just depends on insurance and litigation costs. Seems like one litigation would wipe out any possible profit from such cheap devices.
Gene

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
Those rubber keepers are not needed. Isn’t their purpose to keep the gate of the biner that gets clipped from wobbling? Just sew the dog bone loop tight so that it takes some effort to thread the biner. Done. The keepers are a gimmick – a solution looking for a problem. Am I missing something here?

Credit: Gene

[Note that the picture has the gizmo on the wrong end of the draw as was pointed out previously. My arrow should be at the other end of the draw.]

Why market a product that is not needed and is just another link in a chain of what could and did go wrong?

g
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 11, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
The following report, posted by daysleeper on UK Climbing and then by bearbreeder over on rc.com, indicates that even when people check for problems they can miss them.

http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/04/report-released-on-usfs-rappelling-fatality/

Four experienced people checked this set-up and failed to detect the problem, which is far more obvious than the problem with Tito's draws. The rappeller was killed.



The report goes on to discuss studies highlighting intrinsic perceptual difficulties in detecting unexpected configurations.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 12, 2013 - 05:52am PT
"Inattentional blindness" ...very interesting. If adults performed this poorly I can only guess how a. 12 year old would do.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Jul 14, 2013 - 09:36am PT
A video demonstrating how hard it is to notice things.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:31am PT
As much as I feel that the adults at the scene should have shown more responsibility, I can't say that I would have been astute enough to notice a 10 year old assembling Tito's draws and then check them critically.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:36am PT
They might not have even been assembled on site.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:38am PT
Murcy, not sure that video is that useful, saw the gorilla and got the # of passes correct...

When you are climbing, single-pitch, multi-pitch, sport, trad, boulder, you check your gear, every time... whoever was in charge of the gear for that group is in a personal hell the likes of which few of us have experienced...

Like the idiot I saw yesterday and posted about... do not cut corners to save time, do not rush, do not assume things have been done properly... above all, never leave the ground if you don't trust something or haven't checked the set-up personally...

Charles
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:40am PT
Monolith, true...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Jul 14, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
hey there say, rgold...

thank you for sharing...

it is THIS:

...intrinsic perceptual difficulties in detecting unexpected configurations.


THIS is far more common than folks in ANY field, job, sports, household work, AND--the list goes on...


this is very much similar, and on the same trail, as what i was trying to share:


the BRAIN in new, or fast, or even in 'habit' mode, MAY not always
be telling us WHAT we think we heard, or understood (its override, i think it would be, in this case)--or we may even IGNORE something it WANTED to tell us, by falling susceptible to 'OUR overide, as to what we are busy thinking at the time)'...
*added some edit, in case i did not or cannot seem to explain this proper, it is so complex...


hence, the marvels of teamwork, and double-checking (however, double checking is not always going to do it)...

what can DO it, or helps more is:

either TALKING to yourself about anything that WOULD be serious, as you do it, or looking at it from various angles, ahead of time, etc...



*anyone that proof-reads, etc, know how very easy it is for the brain to
see what SHOULD BE THERE, until you do an 'reverse check' and read backward, page up, etc, or, have someone ELSE read it to you, or if you read it OUTLOUD...

we are HUMANs that need VARIOUS safeguards, and even 'un-habit' type ones, thrown in it, on occasions to 'KEEP the brain on alert'...



dear family, please forgive, i have now become part of 'over doing this'...
but i AM A MOMMY AND GRAMMA AND BIG SISTER type, and i love all my
buddies here and all the kids that want to learn...


the BRAIN again, is a marvelous thing--we really are would be nowhere without it, but:

but--we need to understand 'it's GLITCHES'...
take a survey of MANY of the odd mistakes you've done--many times you will wonder, HOW in the world did i DO THAT????? i KNEW better, :O
or, i've done it right, before, all these years...



SOMETHING new or odd, just triggered the brain to 'GLITCH' into
doing an 'OVERRIDE' of 'your judgement' :(



sadly, in climbing, there is no room for mistakes, or time to fix them...
dear family and loved ones... love and prayers to you as you go forward, without your beloved child...



*won't share anymore now, i just saw something very good shared by
rgold...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 24, 2013 - 07:56am PT
Petzl has updated their instructions for their "String" products to include the following precautions. The second item down in the right-hand column is the set-up that killed Tito.

"String" precaustions from Petzl
"String" precaustions from Petzl
Credit: rgold

See http://www.petzl.com/files/all/product-experience/SPORT/PE_STRING_M90-PE-01A_EN.pdf for the full document.

Maybe these should be posted at all gyms?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:22am PT
Even the very clear graphics of the image above aren't gonna save people from rigging draws with rubber thingies wrong.

I'm with those who say "Why do we need the rubber thingies?"

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:49am PT
Tami, Petzl's answer is

Petzl's argument for rubber keepers
Petzl's argument for rubber keepers
Credit: rgold

The diagram itself makes little sense, since no one would clip a biner oriented that way and leave it as shown. But we've all seen biners flip around, and there have been various biner failures with the gate blown outwards that suggest this type of orientation might somehow happen. Sewn quickdraw slings with relatively little room in the biner loops probably make it more likely that a biner will stay badly oriented if it manages to get into such a position.

I don't use the rubber thingies, but all my draws are tripled "trad" draws.
Deekaid

climber
Jul 24, 2013 - 09:20am PT
The keepers make the draw easier to clip when you are pumped so that the biner doesn't flip around as you franticly grab it. They also prevent the biner from re-orienting into a sideload configuration as the rope moves through it. These seem like pretty useful features to me.
As far as Bishyrats' comment I have and do inspect quickdraws because this is nothing new.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 09:57am PT
I also Richie, that the rubber keepers prevent abrasion at this packed, knot-like junction in the system. A good thing especially when draws are up for a long time or permanent, or in the case of just your ordinary hardware collection, getting a lot of use over a lot of terrain.
wicoxfreedom

Sport climber
Anoka, MN
Jul 24, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
I don't find that the rubber keepers help stabalize any more than a regular sewn dogbone. However, as we've discussed ad nauseum, the emphasis is on the climbers/belayers double checks. As you can read here, I too have had to catch myself mentally getting complacent. Just can't slip up, gotta be dogmatic about it no matter how long we've been at it.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
Looks as if someone is going to be blamed:

http://www.dpmclimbing.com/articles/view/manslaughter-charges-filed-after-titos-accident

This is why Chouinard got out of the equipment business.

I can see suing the supervisors, but the manufacturer and the gear store owner?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
Maybe the store improperly assembled the draws?

I used to just use tape on them which does the same thing as the rubber snubbers. I liked the action of the biner not rotating around in a desperate clip!
Deekaid

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
it also allows for the use of different sized biners which you might not otherwise be able to use if the dog bone end is sewn .tight
Deekaid

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
no instructions in the packaging sounds like liability to me
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
It sounds like a spatter suit where the complainant sues everyone. What outcomes occur is anybody's guess but what is assured is that some lawyers will make some money.


All around a very sad case. A child has lost his life.....
Mark Hudon

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Does anyone know which specific biners/draws were being used at the time of the accident? It seems everyone has been assuming they were from Petzl but is that actually a fact?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Tami, this appears to be criminal not civil,...
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Aug 25, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Mark, I don't know if the manufacturer(s) of the component(s) have been identified, but I don't think the keepers are Petzl. Even though their updated information includes a warning about the type of keeper involved in the Traversa tragedy (http://www.petzl.com/files/all/product-experience/SPORT/PE_STRING_M90-PE-01A_EN.pdf);, I don't think Petzl makes a keeper of that design. Moreover, the DPM article says that the manufacturer is Italian, which would rule out Petzl.
Deekaid

climber
Aug 25, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
just says an Italian company in the last posted article

really sucks for the friends and family
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:05am PT
Tami, this appears to be criminal not civil,...

Looks like they are criminal charges for manslaughter.

If the charges sound odd, remember that this is happening Italy, where they have convicted scientists of manslaughter for failing to predict an earthquake:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=italian-scientists-get

Six Italian scientists and a government official have been sentenced to six years in prison over statements they made prior to a 2009 earthquake that killed 309 in the town of L'Aquila.

Then there is the Amanda Knox story ...

My advice to anyone visiting Italy is make sure nobody dies while you are there.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:32am PT
I saw this coming.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 07:36am PT
This is a fault of parents mostly, not of the equipment manufacturer. The parents should have been there, inspecting the rigging. I could not believe to hear a 10 year old was rigging the quickdraws for him, without adult checking them. If the manufacturer is sued, etc these suits will result in ban on underage child climbing or using carabiners, etc (not a bad thing, I think). A child can't make judgements like an adult, that's why there're so many things restricted to adult use. But parents should have been there; mostly seems like child neglect suit.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:01am PT
WOW.. Manslaughter?

5 people charged? Wow.. If I were a company of ANY type I wouldn't allow my products into Italy or to be sold to Italians anywhere in the world.

The accident happened in France didn't it? USA has extradition agreements with Italy I think. Does this mean if I climb with an Italian here.. something terrible occurs.. I could be charged in Italy and extradited?
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:46am PT
Wow, the story with sentencing Italian scientists to 6 years of prison is shocking..."Jordano Bruno" comes to mind. Inquisition seems to be back in Southern Europe...
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 26, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
It's a criminal case. Italy has a 'civil law' system in which criminal cases include damages for crime victims. The US, UK, Canada, and a few others have 'common law' systems where crime victims have to file a separate civil case for damages. Colombia's legal system is modeled after the Italian one. The victims have rights in court and generally have lawyers. Also, a crime victim can investigate a case him/herself, and initiate a criminal proceeding. In the US, a crime victim has no enforceable rights in a criminal case, and the decision whether to procescute is entirely within the discretion of the prosecutor.

Another difference is in the use of the term prosecutor. In civil law systems, the judge (sometimes called judge of instruction) has a role that combines judge and prosecutor. If that seems unfair, they also have a procurador (not sure this is translatable) who is another judicial official who protects the constitutional rights of the accused. In the US, the defendant (really his lawyer) has to protect his own rights.

So, I doubt any lawyers will get rich off this case. It also seems unlikely to me that anyone would really go to prison for this. But I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things. Remember about a year ago in the western US (Idaho?) there was some kind of rapelling event, a kid leaned back and fell 100 feet and died. The rope was fed through something, I forgot what it was, that wasn't strong enough to hold body weight. In my opinion, there shouldn't be any climbing gear that can't hold body weight.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Aug 26, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
But I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things.


I use (and like) rubber things that hold carabiners in place on a quickdraw. I hope that this lawsuit changes nothing about their availability.

there shouldn't be any climbing gear that can't hold body weight.

Does this mean my chalk bag should be strong enough to hold body weight, in the event that I choose to use it as part of my anchor system?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Didn't an Italian court find that vacines caused Austism despite the entire scientific community saying otherwise? Also the same court that tried and failed to convict Amanda Knox? Good luck!!!!


Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
I hope it puts pressure on the manufacturer to get rid of those rubber band things

Um, NO. They serve a very useful purpose and do exactly what they are designed to do...hold the rope-end biner in place within the draw so it doesn't flip orientation, thereby making clips easier and reducing the chance that the rope-end biner is cross loaded or unclips itself from the draw.

MisterE

climber
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
Oh, No! We may have to go back to the broccoli rubber bands...
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
Don Paul.... your bio says you are a "Big Wall Climber" so in your world those rubber band thingies are not usefull.... I would like to point out this...

What if someone used a adjustable dasy incorrectly and they died?

Would you wish that the manufacturers STOPPED making and selling them??

I don't wall climb, but I sure would not be telling wall climbers what works and what does not.

Just saying...

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 26, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Italy has the nerve to say this climbing gear is bogus yet they still allow
Fiats to be sold?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
This incident is tragic, but in a world where climbing is commercially mass-marketed as a largely risk-free, any-man's leisure activity there are going to be significant and unavoidable collateral damages which clash with society's notions of propriety, responsibility and blame.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
There is no "justice" Other than bringing him back from the dead.

The rest is just destroying more lives for no good reason. I see no gross negligence, no intent to do harm. No effort of any kind to hide some fault.


conned? You really think someone sat around deliberately installing the gear incorrectly then got Tito to give them something of value in return for the deliberately messed up draws..

It's a pretty simple scenario.. some kid put the draws together incorrectly and handed them to tito.. he clipped em.. fell and died.

Everything can be designed with more safety but these draws are not by any stretch of my imagination some sort of "deathtrap"

If I were a judge I'd be tempted to fine whoever brought up the case for wasting the courts time.
tioga

Mountain climber
pac northwest
Aug 26, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
Kids had no business using these without adult supervision. End of story. There're many ways to incorrectly rig/load just one carabiner and pay for it. They should start selling equipment with notice "not for use by persons under 16" or similar age--then, there'd be no lawsuits (and then, the kids won't be able to climb in the gyms as well, other than the bouldering wall) There's a reason a 10 year old can't get a driving license. Car is unsafe in a lot of ways too...yet, you can't sue the manufacturer if you confused two pedals. These pieces of equipment can be not 100% straightforward to operate ,but the whole point is that adults who make their own choices are meant to use them. What if the kid didn't tie a knot correctly? Would they sue a rope manufacturer for lack of knot instructions? It's like putting your child in a passenger seat of a truck and putting a 10 year old at the steering wheel. It's hard to imagine adult rigging 12 biners through plastic, that's where the ability to exercise "common sense gained from life experience" comes in, simply, and little kids didn't have a chance to develop this.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
F'in lawyers. Nobody gets anything out of this but them. The kid's name isn't honored in the climbing world he loved, his parents don't get their son back, and people will still f*#k up and die because climbing is still a dangerous sport.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 26, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Kids had no business using these without adult supervision. End of story

No, it's not "end of story". Substitute "using these" with "climbing" and you might have a point. I'd much sooner send a kid up with"string" equipped QDs, properly rigged, than QDs without them. Again, has nothing to do with the strings, and everything to do with children participating in a DANGEROUS SPORT without proper oversight.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
F'in lawyers. Nobody gets anything out of this but them.

You do know this is happening in a foreign country, with a legal system not particularly similar to ours? And whatever type of "lawyers" you're mad at have nothing to do with what's going on here?

To the guy who doesn't think there was "gross negligence" involved in this death: my god, I don't think it would be easy to come up with a better example (well, operating machinery while highly intoxicated is a good one I suppose). Whether the "gross negligence" is or should be legally actionable may be a fair question, but the existence of the g.n. isn't really subject to reasonable dispute.
marcussi

Trad climber
verona italy
Sep 9, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
A short video has just been released by Andrea Tosi, in memoriam of Tito: https://vimeo.com/73438226
jstan

climber
Sep 10, 2013 - 01:37am PT
When an activity is changed or is just different there are many small adaptations. When we used knotted 1" tubular around the shoulder with two biners on it, you clipped the anchor with either biner. This loose configuration also allowed easy inspection of both the sling and the biners for their condition. The climbing was easier so the extra weight of the solid gates on the biners was not a problem.

Quick draws sewn tightly changes many things. I would definitely be nervous about wire gates on a sewn draw. Actually I would probably not use them at all. Very hard to predict all the things that can happen to a biner in a fall. I do have one wired gate. Never used it.

What are the changes we have to make? To start with you would have to check each draw to make sure the anchor biner is clipped to the junk sling( or the harness). Right there that means a climber has to inspect every item. Used to be you could throw a junk sling to someone and they were off. No more.

Climbing is more detail oriented than it used to be. Much more detail oriented.

Harder to inspect sewn draws for their condition, and we won't even mention use of fixed biners on routes. Never saw one of those, so never used one. We were lucky years ago.

Early on I set myself the goal of tolerating no more than one chance in a hundred of a serious situation on a climb. (Doing a thousand climbs left me open to all the risk I was willing to entertain.) I spent far too much effort trying to understand Quantum Mechanics to risk having those self same neural connections end up as a bloody pulp on some rock.

So other than suggesting climbing is now very detail oriented I would suggest no one take up climbing before taking Quantum Mechanics 101, at a minimum. Being ten years old does not prevent one from doing this. Actually, that may be the ideal age.
duncan

climber
London, UK
Sep 10, 2013 - 04:52am PT
A tragic accident.

The best summary of the Italian legal position I've read was written by an Italian climber and law student here.

It seems that, in Italy, when someone has died, all connected parties are automatically prosecuted. This is the point the proceedings have reached. The prosecutor then evaluates which of the parties have a case to answer in court. It should not be assumed that all the parties will have a case to answer.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 10, 2013 - 07:12am PT
To the guy who doesn't think there was "gross negligence" involved in this death: my god, I don't think it would be easy to come up with a better example

Really?

How so? Do you find yourself freaking out and looking to call the cops anytime you see a kid climbing with another kid at the gym? If they arn't attended closely every second by an adult?

While that might be a good idea actually I must admit I see it all the time and I don't worry about it any more than any other climbers at the gym.
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