risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Snowden blows to smithereens the pious claims of American Exceptionalism, a city on the hill made up of political demagogues, snoopers, voyeurs, mercenaries, and the scavengers in our midst, supercomputers to the ready, armed with preconceived notions of enemies lurking in the dark, a wholesale assemblage of vile operatives who are cloaked in the Flag, seemingly unassailable—until one person came along to reveal the public garbage masking itself as national security. This writer wishes him God’s speed to safety, long life, good health. The nation, whether it knows it or not, is indebted to Snowden’s bravery and moral conscience.

Norman Pollack is the author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, Eichmann on the Potomac, will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Snowden blows to smithereens the pious claims of American Exceptionalism

Snowden? You've got to be kidding me. Man, if it's taken Snowden to wake anyone up to the pious claims of American Exceptionalism then you've been dead asleep at the wheel for a decade at least and somehow missed manufactured intelligence, preemptive war, constitutional violations, treaty violations, rendition, and torture. Hell, BushCo flushed everything that was 'exceptional' about America down the toilet in pursuit of neocon glory in the wake of 9/11.

America’s fear of terrorism, itself a form of terrorism

And fear is the principle currency of conservatives and the republican party. The unfortunate aspect of the success of their fear-based campaign strategy is that while in power they created such a mess of global scope such that we, as a nation, now do have enemies to fear and doing nothing is no longer an option.

Because we can't have it both ways.

So, the question isn't that black and white, but rather one of unpleasant grays - how do we protect ourselves in a world where technology-driven asymmetric warfare capable of mass casualties is now within reach of non-state actors?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
Does our nation operate as an empire or as a democratic nation of free people? Because we can't have it both ways. To live with freedom is to live in fear and insecurity, sorta like being in love, I guess. :-)

Empire is what our nation has become. Institutional torture, now massive multi-administrational internal spying programs... what's next in the degradation of freedom? Secret courts? Oh right, already have those too.

DMT

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
the architects of Nazi Germany designed Totalitarian America...

with an additional 70 years of research and development...

the American public, not having learned so much...dazzled by Hollywood celebrities, big sports teams, puppet politicians, controlled media...

there's now little need of our large wage slave worker population...

pay attention to what has been done all around the world...supported by your work and taxes...

look and learn...

because now they are bringing it back home to you

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
anyone who chokes up on that very well documented statement just hasn't done their homework

however unless you are a history buff, you could indeed invoke Godwin's law and dismiss the obvious implications

or you might want to read 'World without Cancer', a book by G. Edward Griffin, which is well worth a read in any case

followed perhaps by the voluminous 1970s report from the US Congress entitled 'Interlocking Directorates in Corporate America'
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
how am i supposed to respond when i make an admittedly controversial comment based upon extensive research and someone who knows little or nothing about it takes offense

my response is to suggest that you ignore my comment, just as you do many other things

or, if you have any interest in the subject, go do your homework
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
please excuse my interest in the motives and methods of totalitarian governments, aka major criminal gangs, aka epidemics of social diseases


and my quoted posts above come from Norman Pollack, author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, 'Eichmann on the Potomac', will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Tom, one conspiracy theory at a time please.

And Griffin? You're really going to dredge up the laetrile nonsense? Beard, Harris, and Krebs! Oh My! Complete and utter quackery.

Norman Pollack, while a bit of a drama queen and given to occasional fits of hysteria, is certainly a much, much better reference in this instance.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
a sniper with a 308 is all thats needed for snottface snowden. Simple efficient and "humane"....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Ron, sometimes I can't escape the feeling that Nevada must have small designated 'Tribal Areas' similar to Pakistan, but for the terminally clueless.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
it's all ok


i'm sure the Rockefellers, Morgans, Carnegies, Rothchilds...all have your best interests at heart


not to worry


based upon my years as a project manager at Booz Allen Hamilton


just do as you are told
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Tom, if you want to have a proper definition of totalitarianism, start by mentioning Hannah Arendt...otherwise you're pretty much just blowing smoke.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Most of those who object to NSA data mining, I'd wager, couldn't care less if LA or NY went up in a puff of mushroom-cloud smoke - if not actually preferring that that would happen.


You just nailed the crap out of a few likely suspects here with that comment.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
i am more of a wilderness guy, and sad for the loss of wilderness

some people love the cities and there are many wonderful things about cities

the loss of a city is a great loss to all of us

and the cities are full of wonderful people, even if not all their citizens are quite so wonderful

we don't have a population problem, we have a management problem

genocide, war, enslavement, etc are not solutions

these are symptoms of bad management
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
these are symptoms of bad management


By neo-cons and neo-Marxists. We need a good Libertarian to run things for a while.

As for Snowden? Too much ambiguity, not enough details yet. Seems to me like a hack though. An agent for for people who do not like us.

Too early to tell. Wouldn't be surprised if his next car speeded up inexplicably and crashed into a ball of flames....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
i am prepared to believe that four-star general Keith Alexander is sincere in his attempts to manage NSA activities properly according to his level of understanding of reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OL5Fa8EZTEA#at=392


however US foreign policy is doing a great job of creating enemies

i prefer Abraham Lincolns quote about how to handle your enemies...turn them into your friends...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
i don't have a security clearance and never wanted one

i don't like being boxed into a compartment... professionally i work as a broad area innovator, coordinator and concept catalyst

that's partly why i left BAH after many years rather than move into that arena

one of my friends and colleagues who doesn't feel constrained that way, was able to leverage my model-based systems concepts to become a senior VP at BAH...he is welcome

i could have accepted the invitation...but wouldn't be chatting with you

i have also avoided signing non-disclosure documents...at several major corporations and government agencies, including DoD, DOE, DOJ, DOI, etc

if someone wants to entrust me with information, it should be because they trust me, not because i signed some document

if i don't want to talk about something, it is because of my judgement that the information would be harmful, and i am trying to not be harmful to people or the hopes for civilization

i like to be able to speak openly on an open forum like this, according to my own best judgement, not constrained by some legal document
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:01am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

Reactions to Snowden's disclosures among members of Congress were varied.

Representative Thomas Massie (R-KY) said: "Whether or not this program was authorized by Congress, it seems to me that this is an unconstitutional activity ... Which would make it illegal, and he should have some kind of immunity.”[84] Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) said: "If it is the case that the federal government is seizing millions of personal records about law-abiding citizens, and if it is the case that there are minimal restrictions on accessing or reviewing those records, then I think Mr. Snowden has done a considerable public service by bringing it to light."[85]

Speaker of the House of Representatives John Boehner called Snowden "a 'traitor' who has put Americans at risk."[86] Many in Congress joined Boehner[87] in calling for Snowden's arrest, such as Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), chair of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Senator;[88] Senator Bob Menendez (D-NJ), chair of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations; House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA);[89] Representative Mike Rogers (R-MI), chair of the House Intelligence Committee;[90] and Representative Peter King, former chair of the House Homeland Security Committee;[91] among others.[84][92][93][94][95][96]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:16am PT
Whistleblower community

Daniel Ellsberg, the whistleblower and leaker of the top-secret Pentagon Papers in 1971, stated in an interview with CNN that he thought Snowden had done an "incalculable" service to his country and that his leaks might prevent America from becoming a surveillance state. He said Snowden had acted with the same sort of courage and patriotism as a soldier in battle.[146] In an op-ed the following morning, Ellsberg added that "there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that includes the Pentagon Papers, for which I was responsible 40 years ago."[147] Ray McGovern, a retired CIA officer who presented White House intelligence briefs for multiple presidents, said he agreed with Ellsberg in an interview where he also said "this time today I'm feeling much more hopeful for our democracy that I was feeling this time yesterday."[148]

William Binney, a whistleblower who, like Snowden, disclosed details of the NSA's mass surveillance activities, said that Snowden had "performed a really great public service to begin with by exposing these programs and making the government in a sense publicly accountable for what they're doing." However, after Snowden began leaking allegations that the US was "hacking into China," Binney felt, "he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."[149]

Thomas Drake, former senior executive of NSA and whistle blower as well, said that he feels "extraordinary kinship" with Snowden. "I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remember, I saw what he saw. I want to re-emphasize that. What he did was a magnificent act of civil disobedience. He's exposing the inner workings of the surveillance state. And it's in the public interest. It truly is."[150]

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange praised Snowden, calling him a "hero" who has exposed "one of the most serious events of the decade – the creeping formulation of a mass surveillance state."[151] After charges against Snowden were revealed, Assange released a statement that asked people to "step forward and stand with" Snowden.[152]
See also
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:05am PT
Representative Thomas Massie (R-KY) said: "Whether or not this program was authorized by Congress, it seems to me that this is an unconstitutional activity..."

Consider for a moment that this idiot was actually voted into office.

Curt
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