risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Telcos/ISPs do not have the ability to detain you, arrest you, tax you, deport you, execute you. Telcos do not regulate commerce, your license to practice your trade, the safety of your food etc. There are reasons to have different standards. Further, I freely enter into a contractual agreement with my provider. They have a privacy policy, and if they are in violation of that privacy policy I can seek justice through the courts.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Sometimes I can't believe I'm saying this, but listen to Hedge, Curt and Norton. You may disagree with their interpretation, but the SCOTUS has consistently adopted it.

The Fourth Amendment protects areas where we have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The courts have consistently held that business records, such as how many phone calls a person makes and to whom, are business records with no reasonable expectation of privacy.

Traffic analysis existed before WWII. The sorts of data we know (as opposed to speculate)that NSA collected is similar to that obtained in a police stake-out, noting who enters and leaves where and when. That sort of thing has never been held to constitute a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.

While recent revelations cause some of us to mistrust governmental use of information, the NSA data collection that's been "exposed" by Snowden is neither illegal nor unconstitutional. Frankly, I would have been disappointed in the NSA had it been been pursuing these generally-accepted law enforcement and intelligence opportunities.

John
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
The NSA surveillance also violates the first amendment to the US constitution as well as provisions of the Patriot Act.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
I saw Edward Snowden down at the 7-11 buying a Slushie and a couple of Little Debbie Zebra Cakes. Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, and Gwyneth Paltrow were waiting in the pickup giggling like a bunch of teenagers. Fukkin epic.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Curt: Clearly, with 50 terror plots averted, your "for nothing" statement does require a suspension of reality.

Curt

Can you explain how the surveillance of all US citizens communications was a necessity for averting '50' terrorists plots?

Or are we just expected to believe what government tells us?
Or the veracity of what congress is even informed about (such as has recently been challenged).


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
snowden needs a 308 round through his noggin

Ron Anderson, if you are really wise enough to know that this is a viable solution to the world's social political problems, then perhaps I should sign up to help you prove the concept.

However Snowden is probably not going to wander within range of your rifle.

But I can drive over there to your place this afternoon, and we can go out to the range together.

I'll take a walk downrange, and you can try out your proposed solution on my head instead.

If the experiment pans out well, then that's just wonderful and generates new hope for the world.

Then you can make a press release statement to the National Press Club on having verified a simple solution to the world's social political problems.

You'll become as famous as Gandhi or Mandela or the Dalai Lama or even Buddha!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
The NSA surveillance also violates the first amendment to the US constitution as well as provisions of the Patriot Act.

Sorry, but Congress and the Supreme Court both disagree with you.

Curt
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
No need to be sorry.


I have small faith in opinions of those institutions as presently arrayed.



The repercussions and legality of the current wholesale NSA espionage program has not been fairly litigated as of yet.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Preface:

 Senior management
 Our managers
 Central managers
 The elite
 Our bosses

Crikey Tom - get a f*#king grip and drop the plantation mentality...



Tom: but the trade-off between intrusive intelligence and false security is very dangerous and begging for abuse by senior management

These are three deeply enmeshed issues poorly characterized by your statement. "Intrusive intelligence" and "false security" for a starters.

I mean, "Intrusive intelligence"? Is there any other kind? What are you suggesting here? 'Benign intelligence', 'inconsequential intelligence', 'billboard intelligence', or perhaps 'mail-in cereal-box-top intelligence'?

Intelligence, regardless of sourcing, should first and foremost be weighed by the outcomes associated with possessing it - the effectiveness of the intelligence. So far, our track record on following through on clear, actionable intelligence in 9/11, Boston and other incidents has been abysmal for a variety of reasons, but primarily forms of xenophobic or hierarchical chauvinism - i.e. "not sourced here" (9/11 and Boston) or "you don't have enough organizational standing for me to pay attention to you regardless of what you may know" (9/11).

Point being, that [likely] outcome effectiveness is the key criteria that should be weighed in decisions on sourcing intelligence and thus drive any trade-offs between privacy and security. Where we fail as a nation in all this is when those trade-offs and decisions are taken without due transparency and oversight.

"False security" in you statement is all but meaningless, and for all the wrong reasons. In fact, when strung together, all three phrases: "intrusive intelligence", "false security", and "senior management" (the latter in particular) are so telling of your ridiculous and contrived conspiracy addictions as to beg for you to just frigging come out from behind all your silly gauze and tell us what you really think in plain English. Christ, the statement as a whole might as well be straight out of a Scientology phrase book.

i know there are lots of people out there who would love to harm us the minute there is any opportunity, even in our own country... apparently especially in our own country...whether from desperation or revenge or greed or lust for power

to walk around thinking otherwise is just naive

there is tremendous temptation to run around dropping bombs on people and expecting that to solve problems

that may be fun for a while and gives a false sense of accomplishment

but the negative consequences of tearing up a society extend for generations into the future and benefit no one

so that just exacerbates problems, increasing the already too many people that hate us

Here you manage to recognize the obvious and we agree.

our managers have to find alternatives to violent solutions

Again, the painful connotations and subtext are so steeped in a resigned victim's mentality and overarching conspiratorial paranoia as to be utter nonsense and sad from the get go.

perhaps it is too late to save ourselves, but i don't want to encourage that line of thought...fear is like a prayer for what you don't want to happen

Melodramatic.

our society is cheating its citizens with artificially contrived monopolies on all the means of survival, making it very a hard to justify any holier-than-thou attitude relative to other countries

i think our central managers realize they have gone too far, but the momentum of old habits is hard to change

these monopolies are sitting on solutions that could completely change the nature of the game...but these are not solutions that can be monopolized

Again, complete and utter rubbish. And "Central managers" - I'm guessing these must be reptilian or fallen angels who settled the Moon and Mars in the latter half of the 19th century.

And why not be clear and add some actual substance to this post - exactly what are these monopolization-resistant 'solutions'? You'll forgive me if, in the face of basic human nature and US / world population stats being what they are, I find myself highly skeptical of that sadly null assertion.

secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods

As if this is somehow new to the human condition that was absent in Babylonian and Roman times?

the elite seem to desperately fantasize that controlling all the money and power will save them during social collapse

bringing social pressure requiring our bosses forgo their greed and face up to fair and equitable solutions might be the only thing that can save us at this point

The right sentiment, yet so tainted with stilted conspiratorial bullshit as to completely overshadow the basic message.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I have small faith in opinions of those institutions as presently arrayed.

A lot of tax protesters have a similar lack of faith in income tax laws. They always end up worse for those opinions.

John
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Snowden is asking you to believe what he's telling you as well. Believe what you like.

Believe that if you wish.

Snowden is not asking me to believe or not to believe.

He's simply exposing and presenting what he claims he's seen and has participated in, releasing some physical evidence related to it, and a commentary on how abusive interpretations and implementations of the current laws and programs, as well as how a weak or functionally defective and/or secret oversight mechanism can have a broader negative impact on the nation. Then, we observe the effects of those disclosures.

What Snowden leaked is deeply compelling inasmuch as the US government - after having denied it in the past - now confirms the programmatic spying. The declarations from Google, Apple, et al in the wake of Snowden's leaks are also educational. It's also insightful to witness the apparent state of confusion that congress exists in regarding the realties of these programs.



All that is far different in nature than simply believing in the unquantifiable and unqualified utterance of any particular habitual liar (i.e. politician).
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
It's also insightful to witness the apparent state of confusion that congress exists in regarding the realties of these programs.

I actually agree with that. Quite a few members of Congress seem to have no idea what was contained in the bills that they themselves passed.

Curt
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
healyje, your obsessive references to 'conspiracy theories' is quite boring


when you issue a bunch of noise about something, you just seem to verify that it's too close for comfort


so thanks for the complements


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Intelligence, regardless of sourcing, should first and foremost be weighed by the outcomes associated with possessing it - the effectiveness of the intelligence.

Who is doing the weighing and what is their agenda and criteria?

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Why would any of you trust a spy? Spies don't trust spies, and they have damn good reason for it.

Yall can preach about necessary evils all you wish... just don't forget the 'evil' part. Like institutional torture - same goddamned excuses, ie 'doing what is necessary (evil).

Who tells us spies are necessary? Spies, that's who. Who tells us if spies are successful? Spies, that's who. Who validates the spies are telling the truth?

Huh?

Who does that?

HUH????

DMT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
last night on cnn they interviewed an ex cia and fbi employee who was honest. dont know that he was a spy. when asked if teh US would hand over to say russia, a potential defector with the type of high level intel that snowden possesses the guy said no way. at least not until we got the hard drives, all teh data and had interviewed him.

so there may be honest ex spies.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Tom: healyje, your obsessive references to 'conspiracy theories' is quite boring

My obsessions? Dude, at the very least do try to own your sh#t. Your own words clearly belie the one of us who is obsessed.
new world order2

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Of course healyje disagrees with everything Tom put forth, even going as far as calling his contentions conspiratorial in nature.

Why is questioning anything outside of the status quo, a conspiracy theory? "Boring", healyje.

He wants nothing short of an Orwellian (1984) society.

Hola healyje! How are those teeth of yours? Have you considered moving out of fluoride-free Portland?
Poor feller. Must be hell living there, being surrounded by conspiracy theorists.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
yueah,, and hows that worked for us?


ill answer that: it HASNT.

Glad we see that Rong find the US to be the worst country in the world to live in.

Hope to see your immigration papers, soon.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Snowden escapes. I don't see any evidence of him working with the Chinese government

And what would you expect to see? Chinese officials explaining how they covertly lifted information from him?

In China, what happens to operatives who do what they shouldn't is that they are gutted, their children and spouse are gutted, their grandchildren are gutted.

They don't have whistleblowers residing in China. Virtually none outside of China.

Quit being childish.
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