risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 10, 2013 - 02:33am PT
edward snowden just gave up a $100k+ job, his family, a girlfriend, a house in hawaii and most importantly physical security to inform the american [and global] public of what he has seen the NSA already implement and continue to expand. [edited pay down as initial reports of $200k/yr are likely exaggerated]

he appears to have risked all of this and followed his conscience as a public service. if you haven't seen this already, i hope you'll take twelve and a half minutes of your relatively comfortable life to listen to what he is saying: Edward Snowden: the whistle blower behind the NSA surveillance revelations

this is a leak that, if true, makes watergate look like a childhood prank. rather than being about some stupid political dirty trick, this is about the fundamental structure underlying almost the entirety of our contemporary and still emerging networked globe.

this is about confirming that the NSA is already very far along in implementing a previously secret, informational dragnet. a dragnet which, if one believes what snowden is telling us, harnesses archival capabilities that are mind-boggling in scope and breadth. using snowden's words, regardless of current intention, this informational construct has the potential to quickly be converted into an "architecture of oppression" and a "turnkey tyranny."

while it's easy to stick our heads under rocks and tell ourselves "why should i care, i have nothing to hide?" or to paraphrase obama "i'm not worried because i know the people behind the scenes and we can trust them" history has repeatedly shown that to take on this attitude is to be dangerously and self-destructively naive.

"may you live in interesting times", indeed...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:43am PT
this is a leak, that if true, makes watergate look like a childhood prank.


The government has already admitted that it is true, and has been going on for years. It started under Bush and Obama kept and expanded it.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:50am PT
TFPU
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:41am PT
While you may be angry and not like what the government is doing, the initial post here misses the point and creates a fallacy. Let's start with the following which is not legally in dispute:

(1) The program, whether you like it or not, was based upon a law passed by Congress, executed by the Executive and approved by a Federal Court. Congress admits that it had oversight as required by law (even if some in Congress did not like the program).

(2) Based upon the foregoing, the program was, by definition, legal. Watergate was not legal. It was a crime. There is no comparison here. The only crime here was by the guy who leaked the information. He admits he did so to start public debate on what was previously a private debate (i.e., within the confines of confidential Congressional hearings, etc.).

(3) The NSA has a Whistleblower program and set of procedures. This leaker chose to not even attempt to follow those procedures. While it is possible the procedures would not have resulted in anything - indeed, it is likely nothing would have happened since the NSA program complied with the law - it is the obligation of the leaker to at least follow the very procedures that he lawfully and legally agreed to follow.

(4) If people do not like this program, the solution lies in a new law to be passed by Congress since they passed the applicable laws in the first place - creating the FISA court and passing the Patriot Act (doing so again in December 2012). This is why we have elected officials. Now to be clear, I think Congress as a whole is horrible, but the solution is to elect new officials, not violate the law. Alternatively, you should work to convince your Congressperson/people that the law needs to change.

(5) What this leaker did was an extreme act of civil disobedience, NOT whistleblowing (look up the definition - the government was not breaking the law, they were following a law that some people now do not like). Sometimes civil disobedience works out great (think the origin of the Civil Rights Act). Sometimes, it is merely criminal activity. While I am a strong privacy advocate, I believe this case appears to be one of criminal activity.

(6) Bin Laden used to communicate via cell phone. He then learned that we could and were tracking all of his calls. He then switched to couriers and other methods, thus making it more difficult to track him. Every time there is a leak of our intelligence methods, it makes it easier for the bad guys to do what they do. I wonder if people who claim to be against this program would continue to be against it if the program was cancelled, and as a result, we failed to stop a terrorist attack like 9/11.

(7) People need to understand what the government was gaining access to (metadata from phone records, etc.) and what they were not (individual names, addresses, etc.). The idea is that if the government already had information on an individual, they were permitted (and indeed required by law) to go back and get a specific warrant to then get that individual's information - which pursuant to the program, was already being stored.

Again, it is critical that people realize that there does not appear to be any law broken by our government. They were following the law. The problem, if any, is in the law itself.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Kind of a fishy story.
According to Slate, this guy's attempt to take refuge in Hong Kong is a terrible plan. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_leak_investigation_justice_department_announces_probe_of.html
That may seem like a detail, but it strongly suggests to me that he isn't a careful or competent guy, and I'm suspicious of his motivations and candor.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
He's one of many, who will continue to expose, and eventually destroy, this threat to privacy and freedom.

a couple of slides he released on the PRISM data collection program:
from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/



see http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
(4) If people do not like this program, the solution lies in a new law to be passed by Congress since they passed the applicable laws in the first place - creating the FISA court and passing the Patriot Act (doing so again in December 2012). This is why we have elected officials. Now to be clear, I think Congress as a whole is horrible, but the solution is to elect new officials, not violate the law. Alternatively, you should work to convince your Congressperson/people that the law needs to change.

Congress passes a law, when everyone is scared and ready to give up their rights, and then the law is abused to collect information on everyone, not just foreigners, and the people don't even really know what the government is collecting on them.

If they did, this guy wouldn't be divulging any secrets rights?

So kudos to him and FU to the government who collects everything on everyone under the pretense of preventing a few bad guys from doing a few bad things.

Franklin said those who give up their freedom for security deserve neither. We are too far down the slippery slope already

Peace

Karl
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
^^^^ I don't cheat on my wife or do anything too illegal so I don't feel
any less private or free. We have no idea of how many threats or terrorist
attacks have been thwarted by this legal operation. I'm happy they're doing it.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
The Electronic Frontier Foundation, an Internet rights group, calls for a "new Church committee" to investigate potential government infringements on privacy and to write new rules protecting the public.

In the mid-70s a Senate investigation led by Idaho Senator Frank Church uncovered decades of serious, systemic abuse by the US government of its eavesdropping powers, an episode Glenn Greenwald has written frequently about. The Church Committee report led to the passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and set up the Fisa courts that today secretly approve surveillance requests.

A statement from EFF reads in part:

Congress now has a responsibility to the American people to conduct a full, public investigation into the domestic surveillance of Americans by the intelligence communities, whether done directly or in concert with the FBI. And it then has a duty to make changes in the law to stop the spying and ensure that it does not happen again.

In short, we need a new Church Committee.

Read the full statement here. There's support for such a new push inside Congress, too. On Sunday Senator Rand Paul said he would try to challenge the NSA surveillance programs in court, and Senator Mark Udall said he wanted to "reopen" the Patriot Act, to clarify limits on what it allows. Republican Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner recently wrote an editorial for the Guardian saying "I authored the Patriot Act, and this is an abuse of that law."

from
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-revealed-as-nsa-whistleblower-reaction-live
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
I am shocked and saddened by the responses here.

For those that say that we shouldn't be worried if we do not have anything to hide, at what point does price for "security" become too high? What other civil liberties are you willing to sacrifice at the alter of "safety?" How many more wars, civilian casualties in drone strikes, torture sessions and executions are you willing to endure? Do you REALLY think that we are winning the war on terror when the biggest casualties are the freedoms we give away?

I do not expect to change anyones mind with my post. America is in its final death throes, and I see a dark road ahead for Imperial Amerika Inc.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
How did he "risk his life" again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
(1) The program, whether you like it or not, was based upon a law passed by Congress, executed by the Executive and approved by a Federal Court.


My emphasis.


Perhaps the program was based on law. However, the program went way beyond the law that was passed (the Patriot Act). Don't try to whitewash this, what the NSA is doing is ILLEGAL, pure and simple.

Whistleblower procedure my butt. You know as well as I do how far a complaint through the NSA protocols would go. Nowhere, and at light speed.


Congress admits that it had oversight as required by law (even if some in Congress did not like the program).


Tell me, how do you provide oversight if those providing details of their actions tell bald-faced lies about their programs?

Pathetic that you are trying to defend the NSA's actions here.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
This man is going to rot in a box like Madden, and for nothing. Nothing will be done, the machine's wheels have been turning long before and will long after.

michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
I find it interesting that I agree with many comments on both sides of this argument. However, for those who claim the program is "illegal" - that is currently an impossibility. The program was approved by a Federal Court. Therefore, by definition, it is legal. The Court's determine what is and is not legal. While an individual can certainly believe the Court got it wrong (being a lawyer, I often believe that to be the case), when the Court approves an action, that action by definition is legal. On the other hand, there is a clear argument that the law is being interpreted more broadly than initially intended - as often happens. As is always the case in such a scenario, the solution is within the legislature to pass a new law, particularly where the average citizen lacks standing to challenge the law. As for the Franklin quote, that is ALWAYS a battle that is going on with our lives on a daily basis. We allow all kinds of laws that impact our liberty in the name of safety. It's a slippery slope. We have speed limits, limits on weapons, license requirements for all types of behaviors and professions, seatbelt laws, security at airports, etc. The real question is where do we, as a society, draw the line? It's simply a cost-benefit analysis where there is no clear correct answer. However, I believe the correct answer requires that we follow the correct procedure. If one person dies as a result of this act of civil disobedience, there should be a murder charge against the leaker. That was the risk he took in making this unilateral decision. In the long run, perhaps he will turn out to have made the right decision, but it is a decision with real consequences that he has to accept.

With a warrant, the executive branch (cops, FBI, DEA, etc.) could ALWAYS search anything they wanted. The key was getting judicial approval. This current program obtained judicial approval. It is no different procedurally than any other warrant situation. If anything, this is less harmful since this information is not being used for criminal prosecution so as to invoke the protections of the 4th Amendment.

Again, the key here is do we want one individual to have the ability to override a decision made together by our 3 branches of government? If you are an anarchist, the answer is yes. If not, the answer should be no.

All of this being said, the cat is clearly out of the bag. Thus, people - namely, our government - now have to decide what liberty they are willing to give up for safety. Are you willing to have a computer view your Google searches if it saves one life? What is that life is someone you know? Perhaps, on the other hand, society is better off as a whole with more liberty and less safety - after all, we, as climbers, are generally willing to take personal risks to have a more thorough enjoyment of life when we go climbing. Maybe the balance between liberty and safety should be viewed the same way.
The Wedge

Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
I believe the high school drop-out, over some congressmen.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
The ONLY solution I can see if to reduce funding to the government. As this kind of empire building and expansion is routine for even benign programs, we need to reduce all funding to all programs.

In case anyone cares, when you look at your paycheck and see how much they are pulling out for federal taxes, realize that your employer also pays a shitload, and that between the amount that they get from both of you: THEY ARE BORROWING 40% MORE AS THEY CANNOT BALANCE THE CHECKBOOK. You gonna let your children be on the hook for this?

Current debt per taxpayer is $148,212 (ie, YOU) - and that number is increasing daily.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
I don't cheat on my wife

I wonder if they would rat u out if you were?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
The prism program was not "approved by a federal court." Someone did try to make a constitutional challenge to one of the NSAs programs about a year ago, but was thrown out for reasons of standing. You can't file a lawsuit without evidence under Rule 11. So if you can't prove you were spied on, you can't challenge the spying program.

I think if a case were properly presented to a court, this kind of spying would be unconstitutional. Their idea is that they can build a database of every communication of every US citizen, and have a detailed dossier ready to go if they need it. It's not a search until they use it. It doesnt target Americans because it doens't target anyone, at least the collection side. It's like the Bush-era arguments about torture. Absolutely nonsensical.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
If you see something suspicious taking place
then report that behavior.

http://www.dhs.gov/if-you-see-something-say-something-campaign

its our duty as citizens.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Not a big fan of Prism, or other secret spying programs. And I do think this guy did do a favor to us.

However, it seems like he's having a little too much fun playing James Bond. Describing himself as a spy, when he was in reality a security guard and then an IT administrator. Saying his life was in danger, as well as the life of the reporters he talked to.

And was just listening to an interview the Guardian did with him. He was talking about how, since he was a sys admin, he saw lots more sensitive docs than the average CIA or NSA person did. While that's technically true, that's exactly the opposite of what you should be doing as an SA. You're not supposed to be poking through all those docs that you have access to because of your admin status.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
• Raised in Elizabeth City, North Carolina and later moved to Maryland.

• Attended a community college, but never completed his coursework and never graduated from high school.

• 2003-2004: U.S. Army, discharged after training accident

• 2005: NSA, Security Guard, University of Maryland.

• 2006: CIA, IT security.

• 2007-2009: CIA, diplomatic cover, Switzerland.

• 2009-2013: NSA Contractor, Dell and later Booz Allen Hamilton.

This is Bradley Manning all over again. How did this guy get a 200k a year job and access to everything?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Someone did try to make a constitutional challenge to one of the NSAs programs about a year ago, but was thrown out for reasons of standing. You can't file a lawsuit without evidence under Rule 11. So if you can't prove you were spied on, you can't challenge the spying program.

Maybe he did this so it could be challenged?

That Franklin quote is funny. At first it got me all fired up, but then I started wondering if it was just more political rhetoric.

These guys have been in bed with the bankers since the foundation of America, but when the declaration of independence was written, the big challenge was to get people to go to work and not have them feel taken advantage of, leading to protest. The politicians of the day, had to work a lot harder to convince people that the were in fact "free".

Now we just take it for granted....

Edit
It needs special protection. Between google and the nsa and the cellular companies? Turn you inside out... presto quicko, and expose your ass to the world. Yes, you.

You got that right. I just assume that any electronic communication is basically public knowledge.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
I think it's important to understand that you can't have 100% security and then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience...

That is such a bs statement. Does he really think the people are that stupid? Three completely, 100% unachievable goals. He throws up a straw man to defend his administrations' 100% unconstitutional actions.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Time for some heads to roll over this.

In March 2012, Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GA) asked Gen. Alexander, who was under
oath, “What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept
communications and information involving American citizens?

answer: We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.


Top admin lied under oath saying it was not happening when he knew the nsa has been collecting everything and keeps adding capability to spy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:29pm PT

We have far too much of this attitude in Washington - that the Constitution is an impediment that must be defeated. From health insurance mandates, to national security programs, the Constitutional test isn't whether it adheres to the letter and spirit of our founding document, but whether there is a believable work around that the Supreme Court will accept.

In that process, the Constitution becomes little more than a speed bump on the road to tyranny.


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/06/nsa_in_2000_hey_lets_rethink_the_fourth_amendment.html


If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.

Madison
Federalist 51


http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm


If PRISM were only used to pursue terrorists that's one thing, but this administration, (as well as past ones) has shown itself quite happy to use the administrative state to harass its political opponents.

Doesn't mean they are doing it now like they are using the IRS, but they could.

Be assured a future administration will.

Might not be your guy next time.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Well said TGT.


BTW Obama lovers. I told ya so. How was I sure this was happenning before it was reported? Because FISA and the Patriot act made it legal..Tech makes it doable. Therefore it would almost certainly exist. Funny how many folks yelled at me for not having specific evidence. Some things are so obvious it simply blows me away when folks are surprised to find out it's happenning.

Generally when it comes to defense stuff if you can imagine it and it seems likely then it's already being done.


Another side to this argument I haven't heard. It seems to me like outlawing the nuclear weapon. The cats out of the bag.. the capability exists and any government now or in the future that wishes to use this type of thing AGAINST it's people will do so. No matter what happens to the current PRISM.

It is technology and the people need to use the same thing on politicians. 24-7 public surveillance should be the price of power. Well perhaps that is a bit extreme and unworkable. But I do think turnabout could be fair-play and have some positive results.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
It's simply a cost-benefit analysis where there is no clear correct answer. However, I believe the correct answer requires that we follow the correct procedure.

There is nothing that's simple about an analysis that measures social benefits. I've been a part of some of those. What is the value of human life? What is the value of well-being? What is the value of silence or of clean air? Although insurance companies can calculate expected life earnings, what people will pay for more silence, etc., those are economic calculations that have inherent and incommensurable equalities. Avoiding fixing automobile gas tanks versus paying out a few lawsuits after intense legal blocking for design negligence are also cost-benefit analyses. Simple? How about "questionable?"

You would made H.L.A. Hart proud, Mr. Feldman.

Legal positivism has its problems, but not according to Mr. Feldman here. "What is the law is the law." Gee, thanks. Thinking and reflection are hardly needed in your world. Indeed, this makes the law and lawyers technocrats.

Ronald Dworkin had other ideas: laws need be meritorious; the coercive force that governments can use should be regulated according to conditions; laws are to be interpreted; the law (laws with other laws) must exhibit integrity to make sense; law is integrated with morality (that there is no separation between the two); how we come to know the law is more important than knowing what the law is; and the law (laws) should provide a seamless web.

Clearly not all the facts are in, but Mr. Feldman (an attorney, apparently) has already convicted the accused.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
You don't "rethink" the Constitution.
You don't design surveillance programs to get around it.
And you don't twist the law into a pretzel in order to make the illegal,
legal.
jdal

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Before you all get your knickers in a twist it's worth noting that the article quoted in the OP was from a UK newspaper. The concern it expresses is that only US citizens are protected by US law, UK citizens have no privacy protection in the US over use of this data and there is the potential for UK surveilance authorities to dodge UK privacy law in some way by accessing Prism data. We are assured by the UK government that this isn't happening. Ho ho.
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Mike, I do not convict anyone. Rather, I see an individual who signed a contract swearing secrecy, and then intentionally taking documents to which he was not entitled to take, and disclosing those documents in violation of not only his contract (with its confidentiality provisions), but also in violation of Federal law which makes the disclosure illegal. I leave it to a Court to convict if charged. Do not, however, confuse liability for breaking the law and doing the right thing. They are often different. Surely we would all break the law to save someone's life we care about. We would then have to face the consequences for doing so, and hope the Court's would have mercy on us. The most simple situation is speeding to the hospital to bring someone dying. We would all do it without regard to running read lights or exceeding the speed limit. It would still be illegal. We would just hope/assume that nobody would try to punish us. That is what the leaker did here.

As for the Court which approved it, it was the FISA Court. The Judges on the FISA Court are the same Federal judges that serve on the rest of our Federal Courts - appointed by the President with approval from the Senate. They are assigned to the FISA Court by the US Supreme Court on a rotating basis. Like all Federal judges, they have lifetime tenure, and thus, are technically immune from political hacks. The programs were approved by the FISA Court from what I have read.

I am all for privacy rights. I do not yet have a full understanding of how this information was used. None of us do. Thus, I have no idea (and neither do any of you) of whether the programs overreached. I am just trying to deal with the facts as we know them. Those facts are pretty clear (albeit quite limited). I do not trust the government as a whole. I do not trust Congress to do their job as they are too strongly influenced by lobbyists and money. I work in the Judicial system, and while there are plenty of horrible judges, I trust them to not be corrupt. If we want more privacy and more liberty, we need to push for same with our legislatures. We need to push the issue, and present informed arguments as to why giving up some security is worth it for the sake of liberty. This IS a slippery slope in either direction. If our spy programs are all public, they are not spy programs. If we give up all liberty, then what are we fighting to protect anyway? I am also interested to know if ANYWAY has been harmed by this program. In theory, we should be considering who was harmed, the cost of the program and what benefits the program has produced. Of course, this should have all been done by those in Congress who are required, and lawfully authorized, to oversee the program. This is NOT something that the public should reviewing (as opposed to debating the overall issue which has been in the public eye since 9/11) anymore than we should be reviewing battle plans, or criminal investigations in general.

For all those who are now complaining about the program, I am curious whether you were raising outrage and trying to do something about it after 9/11 when the Patriot Act was passed, or when it was renewed this past December. Hell, I wonder if people will make this an issue now. Many elections are coming up. We, as citizens in the US who are able to vote, have a duty to stand up, be heard and vote at election time. If we fail to do so, we cannot then be heard to complain about the actions of our legislators. Maybe this will be a lesson for the 45% (approx) of our population who fails to even vote in a Presidential election.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Been against it since the patriot(TREASON) act was proposed. Wasn't hard to figure out where it was all going. never understood how the death of 3000 people warranted spitting on the sacrifice of about 1 million American soldiers who so many like to say "died for our freedom"

As Franklins basically said. Those who sacrifice freedom for liberty will lose both.

Another guy who i think might have been an alpinist and made pretty good beer stated. "give me liberty or give me death"

Lately I find myself gagging when the National anthem is sung and the words "home of the brave" come along.

Was terribly crushed when candidate then SENATOR Obama voted for telecom immunity. I was actually begginning to believe in him until then... thats when I realized democracy in the USA was dead.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Ok, Michael. I appreciate a fuller explanation of your views. Thanks.

Still messy and ambiguous to me, but as you say, I don't know all about the specific laws in question, execution, oversight, and the facts. I wrote about some jurisprudence issues that stood out to me, which probably will never see the light of dialogue here.

(I'm not exactly for positivism in almost any form, as you might tell.)
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
"It's legal" is not a good argument on the side of the government. Let's say that it is legal for the cops to ask for a warrant to search your house and it is legal for a judge to evaluate their request and issue that warrant. No where in the law is there a clear and definitive line drawn as to what constitutes probable cause and illegal search and seizure; it is all a matter of court opinion. The only recourse if a judge gets a little too generous with search warrants is to point it out, have lawsuits in federal courts, etc. There is no law that can be changed to make a judge act within the constitution.

So although the FISA court allowed this, that does not mean that the actions of that court are constitutional. There is certainly no law that limits what they FISA court can and cannot approve. What they decide is just a matter of their anonymous opinion.

Since we have no way to see any of this happening, there is no way for the public to act as a deterrent to an over-zealous or even tyrannical court.

So maybe it's not legal. Maybe peoples civil rights have been trampled on and everyone who knows about it is just fine letting it happen because they are the ones interpreting the law.

Dave
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
I see an individual who signed a contract swearing secrecy, and then intentionally taking documents to which he was not entitled to take, and disclosing those documents in violation of not only his contract (with its confidentiality provisions), but also in violation of Federal law which makes the disclosure illegal.

And I see a Gov't that does not abide by the laws its Congress creates. And then, when an individual exposes the breach of laws by those at the top levels of the Gov't, they imprison the ones who expose them.


They are called "whistle blowers" for a reason.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
I can't believe there are actually people who are okay with their own government spying on them.


Who feels safe?


"Oh yay, the government is tracking my every move in person, and on the internet, I FEEL SO SAFE" said no one ever.


Edward Snowden is a good person.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
I'm sure there's more than a bit of CYA going on here, but even the guy who wrote the "Patriot Act" says that what's going on now is, and always was, clearly illegal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/09/abuse-patriot-act-must-end
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Go away Crawlly
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
This can stand up to a repeat (michael f., the bold is for you):

Time for some heads to roll over this.

In March 2012, Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GA) asked Gen. Alexander, who was under
oath, “What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept
communications and information involving American citizens?

answer: We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.


Top admin lied under oath saying it was not happening when he knew the nsa has been collecting everything and keeps adding capability to spy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
And on the Manning trial:

The military trial of Bradley Manning is a judicial lynching. The government has effectively muzzled the defense team. The Army private first class is not permitted to argue that he had a moral and legal obligation under international law to make public the war crimes he uncovered. The documents that detail the crimes, torture and killing Manning revealed, because they are classified, have been barred from discussion in court, effectively removing the fundamental issue of war crimes from the trial. Manning is forbidden by the court to challenge the government’s unverified assertion that he harmed national security. Lead defense attorney David E. Coombs said during pretrial proceedings that the judge’s refusal to permit information on the lack of actual damage from the leaks would “eliminate a viable defense, and cut defense off at the knees.”
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I hope he keeps his soap on a rope.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Finally, an issue that Dems and the GOP can agree on.

I'm a Democrat, and this sort of nonsense is obviously wrong.

I'm glad that we all can have a kumbaya moment here.

Now, back to partisanship!!!!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Yer Gunna Die!

Do you understand that down to your core?

If you are young and happen to live 80+ years as you have a fair chance to.. YER STILL GUNNA DIE!

And if you do live that long you will live through the death of around 8 to 10 BILLION people.

Now as climbers we tend to SAY we embrace the idea that quality is worth the risk of quantity when it comes to life. Some of us DIE based on that choice.

The leaker is my hero. Even though he is probably a bit odd and unstable. He probably spoke up in vain. America will continue to give up freedom for the security to live crappy lives full of fear and and weekends away from jobs they hate and can barely eek out a living with. Scrapping and squabbling in crappy little concrete jungles.

Another hero once said. "Give me Liberty or Give me Death"
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Spies!

Spies Everywhere!

IRS Buying Spying Equipment: Covert Cameras in Coffee Trays, Plants

Only accepting bids for 19hours until purchase is made.

Hurry! They need the bugs right now! Tues June 11 2013.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/irs-buying-spying-equipment-covert-cameras-coffee-trays-plants


Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Did you all forget that this was exposed in 2007. It started soon after we signed our rights over to Big Brother under the [un]Patriot Act.
At times they (NSA, FBI, DHS et al) have changed the name of it so they could claim that they stopped a particular program. But or course the general practice never stopped expanding and now it's expanded 100-fold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/11/ex-att-employee-nsa-snooping-internet-traffic-too/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html

No case yet has stopped them.
https://www.eff.org/cases/jewel
https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/att/Shubert%20opening%20brief%209th%20Circuit.pdf
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/amnesty-et-al-v-clapper
https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/


Don't even dream that they are only looking at comms of foreigners. In order to do that, first they have to screen everything. And if you have ever made a foreign call or email, or looked at a foreign website, you are now a suspect.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
The NSA surveillance has been known to the public for years.

The main stream media (MSM) has reported almost nothing about it for years.

The stupid Americans only follow MSM.

MSM has suddenly reported the NSA surveillance.

Stupid Americans suddenly think it's something new.

Stupid Americans still don't have a clue what's really going on even though it's spelled out in the clear every day.

Only when they "see" something on MSM a dim light bulb goes on in their dim heads.

You've all been owned and pawned to the max.

You should all just STFU and stand in the line to the guillotine you've all made for yourselves all along ......

dirtbag

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
^^^^^Grumpy^^^^^
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
Finally, an issue that Dems and the GOP can agree on.

I'm a Democrat, and this sort of nonsense is obviously wrong.


The GOP is only against it if DEMs are in power. I'm against it no matter what

Peace

Karl
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Oh so Werner is an Islamist because he speaks the truth about the delusion of the American populace? I don't think so.

Islam is just another religion.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Rsin
islamicist understudy actually

ROFLMAO!

yer stooopid. Not from around these parts methinks..

Even if Werner is just repeating what I've been saying.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
Islam is just another religion.

Nah!

It's just the

"cult of the child molesting warlord"

It's an insult to the rest of the major religions to compare them.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Why was all this OK 8 years ago?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
it wasn't

It was OK for the last five years until Barry cut his minions loose on the press.

When their own ox was gored they finally started paying attention.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Democracy Now interviews ex-NSA officials "slippery slope toward totalitarian society"....

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/10/on_a_slippery_slope_to_a
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
1997 I was a Central Office Supervisor overseeing 25 offices for one of America's notable Telcos.

We received internal orders to build unrestricted T1 lines into each offices Administrative and Control Panel which gave direct access to all traffic points that originated and terminated within that particular Central Office.

In simpler terms - these access portals gave the end user unfettered access to every landline call, every data link transfer, every encrypted DSL transmission that occurred in real time.

Curious as to who ordered such unprecedented access, we were only told that concerned government agencies had been granted access and to comply with the build request and consider these connections to be off-limits to all Telco personnel unless directed otherwise by no less than a regional VP.

Being the snoopy people that we were, we backtraced these connections through numerous jump links and eventually tracked them to Virginia - home of many a nefarious federal agency.

Through undetected monitoring, we determined that these unnamed agencies were capturing and in essence, bugging potentially every call process that occurred within our offices.

I was not surprised , but I was disappointed that my own country feared the general citizen to the degree that they would monitor all that we said, heard or sent over the public network.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:04am PT
OK when Bush was doing it without a warrant,

Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition.

The "well Bush did it " is getting tiring.

Barry IS doing it!

On Mohammedans,

Name another major world religion where respected theologians have scholarly debates on whether their founder really f*#ked a nine year old girl, or waited till she was twelve?

Ever read the Koran?

Hard to find a suria that doesn't have at least one command somewhere to go kill some infidels.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:35am PT
ever read the Hebrew Bible? Glorification of (God sanctioned) genocide throughout - or so the authors would have us believe. What's new. Where's the hate come from?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are Being Violated


NOVA: The Spy Factory
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/spy-factory.html

The Washington Post: Top Secret America - A hidden world, growing beyond control
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/

NSA Spies on Everyone:
http://youtu.be/TuET0kpHoyM



This has been going on now for a long time. Seems average joe is just waking to this.

It's absolutely wrong no matter how you look at it.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:33am PT
I have tried to resist posting on this thread...I worked in the business for over 30 years. I signed god knows how many secrecy oaths under Title 18. I still take them seriously, even 10 years later. if you believe the system s being abused, you have a choice: file a complaint within the system, either the Whistleblowers office or the Inspector General, or resign and shut up. You might want to believe that these offices are in charge of whitewashing...except that I know for a fact that they go a bit apeshit over privacy.

As a contractor, I NEVER had the right or authority to violate need to know by divulging classified information, including sources and methods, even if I didn't agree with them. It was a promise that I made to my government and in effect TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. Snowden took those same oaths, and in my book, he's no hero.

Snowden isn't risking his life, he's only risking his freedom, and IMHO, he should lose it. Of one thing I am certain...we cannot allow personnel that have taken secrecy oaths to make up their own rules about what information can or should be divulged. We know what's at stake when we sign them, and no one has ever put a gun to my head in the process of signing.

I know some of you might disagree, but frankly, there are things of which you just have no need to know. You might like to know, or wish you knew, but that's just not the way we work, and for the most part, you've all survived quite well not knowing the details.

I cannot/willNOT speak for Prism or NSA. I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:49am PT
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/can_you_use_the_internet_without_prism_partner/
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:47am PT
Edward Snowden is a "whistleblower' in the same way Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen and John Walker Jr. were all "whistleblowers."

Curt
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:00am PT
Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:11am PT
I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:19am PT
Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.

Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.

Curt
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:37am PT
K-Man, my understanding of the testimony to which you cite is that the "communications" have a specific meaning in the intelligence community - namely, specific verbal or written communications being "intercepted" by a human. The programs at issue do not involve this from what I understand. I also understand that if they (the NSA) wants to have a human review any of the actual communications, they first have to go back and get a specific warrant. So was the testimony theoretically misleading to someone who does not know the proper terminology? Surely. Was it false? Apparently not. That being said, I assume most of the Congressional testimony we hear on all issues is pretty much BS or mere posturing.

In any event, after reviewing most of these postings, it is clear that most people are merely stating their opinion as to whether or not they like the program. If they do, then the leaker is a criminal. If they do not, then the government is breaking the law and the leaker is a hero. Such positions are generally falsely based. As things stand, the Patriot Act is legal. As things stand, a Constitutional Court approved the spy program, and thus, it IS Constitutional. That is the way our system works. This does not mean you need to like the law or the Court's interpretation, but it IS the law and it IS Constitutional. The remedy is to overturn the law or ask the Executive branch to not exercise its rights under the law - both of which are acceptable. People have to stop confusing their dislike of this program, or dislike of the Patriot Act, or dislike of the government, with what the law or the Constitution allows.

In addition to all of this, I find it curious that people are ok with going through X-ray machines, having their bags opened, going through pat-downs, etc. (often just to use public places), but they are outraged by a computer scanning their phone calls or Internet searches - which they claim they did not even know about anyway. I was just on a climbing trip and had every item in my carry-on backpack opened and studied, including each individual food bag, etc. It took a while. It was a pain. Yet, I told the person doing the search that I was glad they were at least being thorough. Did it make me feel that the terrorists got a small victory? Absolutely. I lost some freedom of movement. I have to get to Court earlier so my bag can be searched. This means less time doing other things. It sucks. However, it is not illegal. It is a price we pay to feel safe and be safe.

There can be no dispute that there is a fine line between balancing individual liberty and freedom versus security and safety. In making this analysis - which is quite individual - we need to consider whether we would rather be free, but scared from attacks, or lose some liberty, but feel safe. This answer may vary depending on where you live. I watched the second plane hit the Twin Towers on my way to work on 9-11. Many people in my town died that day. My wife works in NYC. I worry about future terrorist attacks, thus, I am willing to give up a little liberty to feel safe for me and my family (which I do). Someone living in a small mountain town may not have the same personal safety concern because terrorist attacks on their community may seem more remote.

Finally, if we are going to have this debate, we all need to understand that there are clearly valid views and positions on both sides of the argument. There is no clear cut solution to the liberty v. safety argument. Different strokes for different folks.
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Just read this: http://news.yahoo.com/world-getting-warmer-faster-expected-132734289.html;_ylt=AjyFHY5iVqmdlBZ38syB_3W1qHQA;_ylu=X3oDMTVxNXQ4ZnFzBGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDEwMDBwb29sd2lraXVwcmVzdARtaXQDQXJ0aWNsZSBNaXhlZCBMaXN0IE5ld3MgZm9yIFlvdSB3aXRoIE1vcmUgTGluawRwa2cDOTM0YjMyNjAtOTg2My0zMzI1LWE0ZTEtMTExZjUxYTdkNDc5BHBvcwM4BHNlYwNuZXdzX2Zvcl95b3UEdmVyAzllMjE5ZmYyLWQxZDEtMTFlMi1iZjY3LWUyNWFkOGZkZWQ2MA--;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3

When I read that global temps are now predicted to increase 9 degrees F by 2020, I am reminded that there are far larger issues getting ignored, and we should be focusing more on such big picture and survival issues instead of a lawful spy program that has yet to harm anyone (at least, not that I have heard of). So when you decide to vote or call your Congress representative to complain about the spy program and ask for a change in the law, let them know they also have to do something about CO2 emissions and pollution. Far more people will die due to Climate Change than terrorist attacks or spying on terrorists (or potential terrorists).
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:06am PT
I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.

So was Paul Revere if the Government got him.
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:10am PT
After massive media brainwashing over many years .....

Americans have succumbed to the Machine.

Americans have become the Machine.

Americans are now THE Machine.

The machine is run by the operator.

Americans have become the the dumb Machine under the control of its operators.

Stupid people ......

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Why did he run to China? Why is Russia offering him asylum? Two questions that bring an odd feel to this.

They are just doing what we do all the time to them. Protecting the politically persecuted. America does political imprisonment too. But like the Chinese we like to claim the prisoner broke our law. Whether our law is just or not.

This thread makes me sick. Werner is right.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:15am PT
michael, I appreciate your thoughtful replies.

As far as I know, the NSA stretched the law by collecting communication records on US citizens
without a prior warrant--with our without a machine.

Certainly, highly-paid layers will finagle down to a micro-letter that the law does not specifically
state that the NSA stretched beyond the law, but I do believe we all know the intent of the law.

Bats squeeze through 1/4" openings, and that's akin to what layers do with the law, they find ways to
squeeze through the smallest of openings to deem something legal or illegal, the letter of the
law opposed to the spirit of the law.


Why am I so concerned about the NSA leak? I don't need to worry if I don't do anything "wrong," right?

"Wrong" as in attend a peaceful protest against a war, or any other Gov't activity I may want to
stand against. Perhaps I want to show appreciation for the cause behind the Occupy movement.
And when I do, I will be labeled a terrorist and have my electronic communication combed like
Lady Gaga's hair.


"Every single time any major media outlet reports on something that the government is hiding,
that political officials don't want people to know, such as the fact that they are collecting
the phone records of all Americans, regardless of any suspicion of wrongdoing, the
people in power do exactly the same thing," Greenwald said. "They attack the media as the
messenger and they are trying to discredit the story."


And, I fully agree on your concern about climate change--it's rediculous that we have to
fight the establishment that brings us our AWG deniers. (BTW, check out http://www.tinyurl.com,
like this: http://tinyurl.com/krhsez4 ;-)
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
cyber war is lately being used as a goofy name for the ancient art of spying. Something all nations do to one another. It isn't war until it is used to do direct damage. I havn't heard that China is accused of anything more than data collection. Could be wrong.

Funny how the laws of nations allow spying via diplomatic cover but the laws for their people do not.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:20am PT
China was just accused of stealing military secrets.
I suppose that is "data collection."

How about the cyber war against the nuclear research in Iran?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:20am PT
heh edited at same time to include Iran

Yep just good ole spying same as we do. Cept we actually have used hacking to do damage to other nations.

America has done cyber war. Iran
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.

Curt

Depends what side you were on. But clearly the states were the Rebels.

There are higher laws than the written ones. as our founders clearly pointed out.
When the written law requires you to do what is wrong.
What does a good man follow?
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
A quick calculation of the phone "metadata":
300 million people making 10 calls a day. We harvest source phone, destination phone, time and length. Each can be stored as a 32 bit integer, 16 bytes per call. I get 48 Gb per day; would fill my hard drive in 4 days. Have no idea how accurate 10 calls per day is.

A totalitarian government occupies every aspect of your life. We are getting there.

Snowden is a hero.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:

http://www.everyjoe.com/2013/06/11/girls/lindsay-mills-photos-edward-snowden-girlfriend-ballerina/?pid=4015
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:

had. Now he's fleed the country and likely going to rot in a cell for the rest of his life. Meanwhile she has to deal with her private photos being shared online by pervs. Fun stuff.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
I would have had her meet me in Iceland.


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?

It just feels creepy. I'm sure she did, back when life was great.

empathy... try it.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Blah...lighten up dude.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Snowden is a hero for sure. To paraphrase Daniel Ellsberg, "at great risk to himself, Snowden has conferred an incalculable benefit on our democracy".

For those of you critical of Snowden, those of you so willing to give up all privacy, and possibly all liberty, for the sake of some safety, how did you become rock climbers? Doesn't your strong preference for safety dictate you stay at home on the couch and surf the tube?

Maybe you are sport climbers. If so, then I understand. :-)
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
This story stinks on every level.

Of course we were being spied on since the Bush admin. Nothing new, Obama's crew just kept it going. Patriot act everyone!

And I'm sorry but how does a high school dropout and military failure like this guy manage to earn top secret CIA security clearances with a $200K job? Not even Carrie Mathison can get that. And she's not real.

Though I do love Homeland.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Fluoride, as public education is in large part an exercise in conformity, very smart people sometimes have great difficulty in school. They choose not to conform. Did you watch Snowden's video? He is quite aritculate and clearly very bright.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
very smart people sometimes have great difficulty in school.

Greg Davis, Junior College drop-out. I'm a smrat!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
In America, the Stupid have the numbers, and the Stupid will always band together to defeat the Smart Guy.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Of course we were being spied on since the Bush admin.

I suggest you read Wild Bill Donovan, the founder of the OSS. The OSS
didn't do much spying on US citizens, that was J Edgar Hoover's portfolio,
which we all know he carried out with a vengeance. The stuff he did makes
anything the NSA is doing look a very weak sauce.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
I suspect that the only reason the content of our phone calls is not being harvested is the prohibitive storage requirement.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
the prohibitive storage requirement.

Just did the math, ~80 bytes per text times 7 texts a day times 300 million cell phones... 65 terabytes a year for just texts. Really not that much. Add in pictures/photos and it skyrockets, tho. I have 2 terabytes on my 4-year old home PC, FYI.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
If he likes ballerinas, which apparently is the case, Russia would be an excellent choice.

I see that Booze Allen fired him-- funny if he filed a wrongful termination suit.

I almost had to get a security clearance once and researched the ins and outs of it, it's really not that big of a deal if you've kept your nose more or less clean.

Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Hi G
Good work for the storage requirements of texts. I was thinking of the digitized audio of a phone call, considerably more than 80 bytes.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Good work for the storage requirements of texts. I was thinking of the digitized audio of a phone call, considerably more than 80 bytes

Good call. Well, they did put a man on the moon... what's a couple of Fry's electronics worth of storage?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
I almost had to get a security clearance once and researched the ins and outs of it, it's really not that big of a deal if you've kept your nose more or less clean.

Oh yeah? Try and get one to work at Sandia Labs. You would think they
were building atomic bombs there or something.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
The phone call records fishing expeditions were the main focus of the hearings lately. But that is only the tip of the iceberg, as Snowden told. They aren't going to discuss in open hearings most of what they do.
What is the difference between searching the content of all internet comms and searching every house?

Separately, - if they are going to look at all comms, why is the policy itself classified? It's one thing to classify the actual infomation gained, but in a democracy the people need to know how the government works.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
congress should shut up

they voted FOR this, over and over on renewals

now some pretend they never heard of it

posers
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
And I'm sorry but how does a high school dropout and military failure like this guy manage to earn top secret CIA security clearances with a $200K job?

Simple. He didn't.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/booz-allen-reveals-snowdens-salary-was-122-000

Curt
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
100 plus is still a bunch of money!

Seems like a strange action on his part. Lose your country, live in girlfriend "dancer", and now he has to worry about getting taken by the Chinese.

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Ron, they could lock him in solitary incommunicado just like Manning.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:11pm PT

he broke our laws by leaking classified information, and when we get our hands on him we will prosecute, find him guilty, and sentence him to prison

that is why he left and is hiding in Hong Kong and probably will accept asylum from Russia if they make good on talking about offering it to him

we'll get him eventually and he could get 20 years here
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
did you see what they are doing to Bradley Manning? 3 years in prison (before trial). 23 hour a day in solitary. Talking of death penalty. Trumped up charges that in no way fit the crime.

Of course there is always the possibility he in on a CIA mission, and all the press is just put out in order to get the trust of the Chinese. In the world of spooks, you can never know in the end who is who.

But as to the wire tapping, I think the only way for civil disobedience to bring this sh#t down is if we all start peppering our emails and phone calls with words like "bomb", "terror", smuggle, timer..... You get the idea. 300 million false alarms a day would shut them down I'm sure. I wonder if the Prism system will pick me up now. lol
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Damage control article mostly claiming exaggeration, if you believe it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57588337-38/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-tech-companies/

But even that likely wouldn't apply to the slides that have not been published.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?

Do you want to live in a country where good people sit by and watch the government abuse their power? If your boss asked you not to tell as he pocketed charitable donation dollars, would you speak up? Who is the traitor, the one doing the will of the democracy or the one spying on citizens?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:27pm PT




Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There

Jun 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?

Heat stroke, 100 here today
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Norton, Canyoncat, et al.

Read 1984 if you haven't already done so.

A brief line from the 1984 wiki description:

"Nineteen Eighty-Four is a dystopian[1] novel by George Orwell published in 1949. The Oceanian province of Airstrip One is a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, and public mind control, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (Ingsoc) under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as thoughtcrimes.[2] Their tyranny is headed by Big Brother, the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good."
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
"People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?"

Totally agree. He signed on to the process. Punishment will happen if he is caught. Senate and Congress and President(s) all know it's going on. If you don't want it to happen elect different people......
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Cannot make the public exposure of nsa criminal activity also a crime.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
“I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight
Getting lost in that hopeless little screen”

Democracy is coming to the U.S.A Songwriter: COHEN, LEONARD

Problem not only Edward Snowden but there a few others in his field that can see what is in store for the future of the U.S.A. and it is not Democracy but Tyranny since it is written on the wall.

canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
I can only speak for myself. I've worked in positions where I held top secret clearance. I will take that knowledge with me to the grave. I didn't even discuss it with my parents or spouse. I've never been in the position of having to support something I didn't believe in, or believed was morally wrong.

If I did, I would do the honorable thing and quit my job (and still keep my damn mouth shut). If it was so egregious that I felt the system was being abused, I'd have reported it through the proper channels. If that didn't resolve things to my satisfaction, tough sh#t. Your option is to not "be a part of it". Quit. Stop sucking at the government tit you so hate. If what the government is doing is so wrong, and everyone who works on the program knows it's wrong, and they all quit, then the program won't function will it? But, what about people who won't quit? Hmmm, maybe this isn't a big, bad government issue, but a greedy people without moral compass issue?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Canyoncat, have you watched Snowden's interview? He doesn't seem to be motivated by money at all, and he does seem to have a very stable moral compass.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Why would she bother? All she does is bitch about sh!t.. Not one positive post. Ever
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
This is a tough one. As I said earlier, I think the govt is abusing its power beyond what it needs to, and being less transparent than it could be.

And to give Snowden some credit, he does seem to have been a bit more discriminating than Manning about what he disclosed. Manning included docs that named actual sources...putting those people in danger. Snowden disclosed a program that he didn't agree with. And one where the disclosure doesn't probably immediately endanger anyone.

But it does seem to me that he has done a bunch of exaggeration about his personal situation and his likely level of access/control. That makes me a little suspicious. Going to China is also a little dubious.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
I will take that knowledge with me to the grave.

I bet you will.
Right to the slaughterhouse.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
The fact that vacuuming American phones and internet by this STRATCOM/NSA
program had to be approved in secret by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Court (known as FISA), created to provide secret judicial oversight of the
intelligence community actions outside the USA,

indicates that the system of checks and balances installed to prevent abuses
and overreach does not work. In other words, ending the surveillance will
not be sufficient. The bad law, the process, and the people involved that

allowed total domestic surveillance systems to be brought online
-- a creation of the so-called Patriot Act, a truly Orwellian nomenclature

must be overhauled as well.


splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
"What NSA criminal activity?"

The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?

although addressed to Hedge, I certainly would concede your statement

Snowden set off a needed transparency bomb at the very least

he will pay for it, he knew that when he did it

I am glad he did it so we can have an open debate about it, and I don't see how he actually harmed anyone by doing so
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
Hedge, again you see everything through the lens of right and left, conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat.

This is not a partisan issue. Take your friggin' funny glasses off!!

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
“but a greedy people without moral compass issue?”

It is a power issue: one being about the people who really run the world especially the ones in the US that think and believe that their moral compass needs to be stuff down our/your throat.

Guess you believe Ellsberg is a traitor but then again we would never have known the truth about the Viet Nam war and a few other things.

What is the CIA’s motto, "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
"Who's idea was it to put GPS circuitry in cell phones, do you suppose???"

Did you see that presentation by the CTO of CIA indicating that the accelerometers in your phone could be used to ID you with 99% accuracy. Your gait is that unique and diagnostic. We are snowflakes.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cia-presentation-on-big-data-2013-3?op=1
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJmGjs&feature=youtu.be&t=6m9s
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
"What NSA criminal activity?"

However, NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (USSID 18) strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "... U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations...." without explicit written legal permission from the United States Attorney General when the subject is located abroad, or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court when within U.S. Borders.

    Wikipedia


So, unless the FISC gave orders to tap everybody's electronic communication, the NSA is operating Out Of Bounds.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
"The temptation to sacrifice liberty to end suffering often becomes an attack on the reality of the liberty itself. Rebecca West, a prominent novelist and literary critic (and erstwhile mistress of H. G. Wells) said Huxley had “rewritten in terms of our age” Dostoevsky’s famous parable of the Grand Inquisitor from The Brothers Karamazov—“a symbolic statement that every generation ought to read afresh.”

“The Grand Inquisitor” is a story within the story, a troubled Karamazov brother’s case against both man and God. In his legend, Christ returns to earth in the fifteenth century and raises a child from the dead; this miracle causes a crowd and a commotion. The Grand Inquisitor, the cardinal of Seville, has Christ arrested and, sentencing Him to death, denounces Him for condemning mankind to misery when He could have made for them a paradise on earth. Underpinning his accusation is the problem of evil: how, if God is all-loving and all-powerful, could He allow man the autonomy to sin? Christ’s life and work held out the possibility of redemption, but left man the freedom not only to doubt but to cause unspeakable suffering. Man has not been equal to that responsibility. “For nothing has ever been more insufferable for man and for human society than freedom,” the cardinal tells Christ. “Turmoil, confusion, and unhappiness—these are the present lot of mankind, after you suffered so much for their freedom!” In the Grand Inquisitor’s indictment, he pits Christ’s offer of redemption against the church’s promise of security:

With us everyone will be happy, and they will no longer rebel or destroy each other, as in your freedom, everywhere. Oh, we shall convince them that they will only become free when they resign their freedom to us, and submit to us. Will we be right, do you think, or will we be lying? They themselves will be convinced that we are right, for they will remember to what horrors of slavery and confusion your freedom led them.

The cardinal’s argument reappears in a strikingly similar confrontation in Brave New World. When John the Savage sours on the wonders of the World State, he foments a riot among the Deltas and is brought before Mustapha Mond, the Resident World Controller for Western Europe. In the thematic climax of the novel, Mond defends his spiritually arid civilization by recalling the terrible history that preceded it. Love, literature, liberty, and even science itself are sacrificed in this most scientific of societies—all to serve the goals of happiness and stability. “Happiness,” Mond says, “is a hard master—particularly other people’s happiness. A much harder master, if one isn’t conditioned to accept it unquestioningly, than truth.” To achieve lasting social happiness, all else must be given up.

Each of these interrogations lays bare the fundamental compromise at the heart of that society. Both interlocutors avow a struggle, many years ago, to give up what is now at stake—faith for the Grand Inquisitor, truth for the World Controller—to “serve” the weak, debased, tormented human race, whose happiness depends upon the satisfaction of material wants and absolute submission to authority. “Only now,” says the cardinal, “has it become possible to think for the first time about human happiness. Man was made a rebel; can rebels be happy? ... No science will give them bread as long as they remain free, but in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet.” “Truth’s a menace,” says Mond, and “science is a public danger.... Universal happiness keeps the wheels steadily turning. Truth and beauty can’t.” Against the ever-greater misery that appears to be the price of personal autonomy, both pose the question: Is man worth his humanity?"
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
Next time you are in Safeway or Costco or any big chain store they use your signal to see where you run around and what products you stop at or the area to help in their research for better marketing. They know the stuff that does not get the attention they do not resupply.

Base 104 great post not only that but the ones now doing the contracting that scares me.

Koch industries
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Spoken like a real spook:

Of one thing I am certain...we cannot allow personnel that have taken secrecy oaths to make up their own rules about what information can or should be divulged.

Unless, of course, you have a conscious and know right from wrong. It is brave the people who stand up to their task masters and expose their wrong-doings. Especially in the face of grave punishment as a result.

And I've seen stories about when folks take the internal Whistleblower route, the 9/11 Commission Report is full of such stories.


I know some of you might disagree, but frankly, there are things of which you just have no need to know. You might like to know, or wish you knew, but that's just not the way we work, and for the most part, you've all survived quite well not knowing the details.


Reminds me of a point in the film The Pentagon Papers where they guy says [paraphrased] "Most people in the US don't want to know how they got it, they just want to wake up and have it."

But then again, as Werner points out, we Americans are a bit numb in the brain.


I cannot/will NOT speak for Prism or NSA. I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.

You cannot be serious, USSID 18 prohibits the collection of data on US citizenry, without an explicit court order. Or am I missing something?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
A nation of sheep

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Joe, you? Are you really having trouble comprehending? Here, I'm putting in bold the important phrase:

NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (USSID 18) strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "... U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations...." without explicit written legal permission


Now, isn't this all about the collection of information?


If not, do please tell me what the fuss is about.



And you want me to dig up real-life stories about folks who try to take the internal whistle-blower route, only to see their efforts 86'd (and themselves terminated)? Give me a couple of minutes...
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
They can do anything they want.

No they can't.

Only if you are stupid .......
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
When the first high-quality color printers came on the market the Treasury Dept made Xerox and others put a secret serial number in the firmware that create a microscopic 'brand' on any document printed with those printers. Any document could be traced back to the printer from whence it came.

I wonder if anyone has ever had success using a color printer to make money, literally.

I don't think that the tags were for spying on all citizens, they were to thwart potential counterfeiters. Or maybe Not??!?!?!

Is is true that tasers leave confetti that has a serial number on it or was that just a dumb movie gimmick?

Dave

P.S. and why isn't "taser" in my spell checker?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Ah Joe, you got me.

Right now, many high-powered lawyers are making huge amounts of money, tax-payer financed, trying to resolve this very issue. Just how much data does the law allow NSA to collect and where does it draw the line on US citizens?

From what I heard from the talking heads on the radio, it's going to be a bit before they twist the laws to say "Yep, we gave the NSA unspeakable powers to do whatever the f*#k they want."

But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.

To twist it any other way is just academic. You want the story to be written a certain way, they got authors by the dozen who will write it up that way. And now, theyhave to write it up that way, their hands are forced. But you know, and I know, it ain't supposed to be that way.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
K-man, you might not like the legal permission, but it is indeed there. Your congressperson has email, write them and bitch about changing the law. I can assure you, NOTHING is done without an appropriate warrant.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Sal, are you saying that they have a court order to collect data on all US citizens? There is an order is that broad?

I will need to see in writing where the law says it's OK to collect data on all US citizens. And, like I said above, I was listening to some very well informed speakers on the radio, and they too were waiting for a description of how the law that passed could have been interpreted as such.

So, if anybody has the statute that gives the NSA broad authority to capture data on all citizens, post up and make me look the fool.
AndyO

Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
FWIW, a guy I know was bootlegging transit passes in Europe using the printer at his job. When someone was caught with a stack of them, the cops read the microscopic serial number in the prints and tracked it back to his employer. He had already left that job, but forget about that future reference...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition.

Let's be excruciatingly clear, W's crew didn't give a wit about the Constitution or Bill of Rights - again and again their conduct was both criminal and treasonous and they only had Aschroft/Gonzales/Yoo/republicans in congress cover their asses after the fact when word started to get out about their activities. All the activities being discussed in the media are authorized by and given cover by various Bush-era laws.

And look, after 9/11 it became painfully clear that war can be waged in ways our military can't protect us from. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out 9/11 was nothing compared to a terrorist attack with a small nuke. So that sad day the dead serious question became: how to stop a terrorist nuke attack?

And that remains the question to this day. What's clear now is that some folks came up with at least the idea of an answer: that likely perpetrators of any such attack in today's world are likely to have a digital footprint. Given that threat, in combination with the various authorization and congressional funding, our nation has clearly embarked on a digital 'Manhattan project' in an attempt to prevent such attacks.

And that project doesn't just involve phones and the internet. Our coasts / shipping lanes have rings of radiation detectors and satellite monitoring for ships which might attempt to leave those lanes. Containers leaving ports are scanned. Our subways are monitored for radiation as witnessed a few months back when a subway was halted and nuke-response team flooded in to the tunnels and pin-pointed a passenger undergoing a radiation-involved medical procedure which triggered their alarms. And you can bet your ass all airport luggage is being scanned as well.

But again being clear, Obama hasn't done this, the Bush crew were the architects of this approach, they set all this in motion, gave it cover, and Congress has been funding it all along under the auspices of the intelligence committees. What Obama has done is signed the appropriations that keep it going. And you can bet any president, a Ron Paul even, would have signed those appropriation bills because guess what? No president wants another 9/11 or worse happening on their watch and have anyone say they didn't do enough to try and prevent it.

But make no mistake, the blueprint for this surveillance build out was in-place a decade ago or the data centers we see up and running it today wouldn't exist - those data centers were planned, designed, paid for by W's crew. The continued build out and implementation does not need any more presidential involvement beyond signing appropriation bills and having the Justice department provide some minimal oversight. And that oversight is also minimal by design and by law.

Hey, it's a f*#king brave new world out there and all your digital toys aren't innocent - they don't just enable your next free latte and your porn habit. They vastly and equally enable the expression of malevolent intent and can be used to coordinate a devastating nuclear attack on one of our cities. What's that you say? You want both your privacy and and protection from a terrorist nuke attack? I'd say, ok, and would you like the Easter Bunny with that as well? Because make no mistake about it Bucko, the reason this is happening is because our military is useless against some of the most serious and likely threats against our nation.

And unfortunately, capturing 60% of the datastream 100% of the time or 100% of the datastream 60% of the time just isn't going to cut it relative to even hoping to 'get lucky' in stopping such an attack. It's more of an all or nothing deal and it's taken a decade just to build out part of the ultimate data collection foundation; it will probably take another decade of to get the analysis and auto-monitoring in place. Hell, we only just learned to do it and that took the invention of Google and Facebook and other social enterprises which had to step up to the 'big data' plate.

You can't really have it both ways - social privacy and protection from a terrorist nuke attack - something has to give and the president you elected before this one made the call on how it was going to go and the build out began. The idea that this president has been much more involved than signing the continuing appropriation bills for it is ludicrous. If he came out publicly and told us all about the program and said he was terminating it then republicans would claim he's leaving us defenseless in the same way they've claimed closing Gitmo would.

The framers of the Constitution didn't and couldn't have conceived of your iPhone; our rapidly evolving digital existence and the threats it enables represents a radical, cross-cultural, trans-national realignment of human reality on all fronts and we will all have to adjust and make painful trade offs. In the end, and all digital narcissism aside, the Internet isn't just for you, the front camera on your phone isn't essential, and all this sh#t could kill you without a single Chinese paratrooper dropping in on your front lawn.

And it isn't a problem you can solve by squeezing the government's access to money or cutting it's budget; this is viewed a strategic requirement for our national defense. And its part of an opening, evolving and continuous cyber-warfare where we are way, way behind the friggin' curve compared to China (we taught it to them). Cut the budget and they'll just shift funds to keep the funding levels for this steady as it's again viewed as critical to our national defense and in many very real ways, is.

Look, I'm all for the Constitution, hate the government, don't like paying taxes, but this, this sh#t is part of a new world which has never existed before and is evolving faster than any technology shift in human history. Really hard choices are going to have to be made as there's no going back to your imaginary white, digital-free, nuclear-family world that really didn't exist in the 50's outside of peoples imaginations. What's it gonna be...? Privacy or protection, because you can't have both and that's what this is all about.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
So at this point, since we know the NSA collects our data, we knowingly provide that data to a third party. I see.

But what about before the leak? Our phone conversations were not knowingly provided to third parties.

If I txt my bookie, only he and I are supposed to know about that conversation. That is, until The Guardian came around and told me otherwise.

Still looking ...
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Wonder now if there will a run on these bags. Sh&t still waiting for guns and ammo to be on the selves. Not that I need them for the moment.



Smart [not that smart] cell phone on top of bag with signal ATT and the bars.


back of bag




As in the picture now you see it and now in the bag you don't. or they can not pick up the signal but still can do the work.

For 100% protection you would put the cell phone bag in the large laptop
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
they're all bad,some just worse than others
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Privacy or protection, because you can't have both and that's what this is all about.

Nice writeup healyje. Indeed, the day after 9-11, our Gov't was wrestling with the problem of having an enemy that was not a state (or state sponsored).


Carry your phone, take pictures with it. It does a great job of documenting your life, where you've been and where you're likely to go. That's the new digital age we live in, and you can love it or leave it.

My problem is that the carrot is "you want the evidence to be a mushroom cloud?" Although the stick is, "I see you went to that peace riot. Who did you talk to when you were there. And oh, sorry about the pepper spray stain on your tee shirt..."

Dissident is now a terrorist activity. And they can hold you without charge, indefinitely.


That's the mushroom cloud I fear.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
HP printers will give the US access to ones printer if looking for children's porno.

Reagan with Meese when he was Gov of CA used undisclosed places that NSA would collect on political activists. Everyone in Santa Monica that had anything to do with anti war movement finally figured it out since they were not getting any monthly bills. 3-4 months after NSA had to figure a better way to hide their tracks. They did.

That was the old days, now they contract the companies [thousands] that provide the service the Gov needs.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Laying this at the feet of President Bush is somewhat ridiculous. This one is the Corp. Machine at work, the CEO is irrelevant.

Total bullsh#t. Once charted, funded, and underway the CEO is somewhat irrelevant; but all of this was wholly enabled by the laws authorizing it and those laws are and were entirely owned by BushCo. This is again, why giving - or in the case of BushCo, allowing the Executive to take - more power is perilous business. That crew fostered and leveraged a climate of fear in the wake of 9/11 to do a lot of unsavory, explicitly illegal, and outright treasonous things and this is just another one of those 'things' started illegally and given legal cover after the fact - it's how that crew did business and what kept John Yoo employed.

And hey, it was just part of the neocon's big opportunity to restore the fantasy of a god-given right to white male world supremacy so it was a-ok. How's that worked out so far...?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Barry Dunham debates Barrack Obama



[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.

hardly

the program was started under the Patriot Act in response to 9/11

congress continues to vote to reauthorize it

all Bush and Obama did was simply sign it into law

as they should do because there would have to be a very good reason for a President to veto a bill that both houses of congress voted on and passed

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
Healy is correct,give me an idea ,What could Obama have done?

Not a GD thing.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
You're right. Obama has to do things exactly as Bush would. He has no choice in the matter.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.

Yeah, well the American people, Congress, and the UN were all both under- and mis-informed about a lot of things by BushCo. Now you can claim Jim Sensenbrenner (R. Wi - Patriot Act 'author') and Congress didn't understand the 'charter' (and that's probably why they picked him to introduce the bill), but you can bet your ass it's all authorized and they are not 'overstepping' their charter.

If anything, they are probably behind-the-curve in implementing their charter. As I said, for things to be already built out to the level they are means that charter was explicitly to embark on a 'Manhattan Project'-like push to build out this capability as a strategic element of the defense of the nation. No 'over-stepping' involved, if anything, they're under-stepping the project goals and explicit intent.

Again, if someone sails a nuke-in-a-container into Long Beach, SF or NY Harbor and sets if off in the port you folks are all going to be asking if we were trying hard enough to stop it. I'd personally say they're trying pretty hard and folks just don't like the reality of what that takes and means.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
what is your point, Chaz?


should Obama have vetoed the bill just so he would not be the same as Bush on that issue?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
You should all know by now who the Koch Brothers are:

David baby of Koch Industries' contributions have gone toward achieving legislation one particular defense appropriation. You want to know what it is. Where most of the funding gone to?

Ron I believe you brought up the subject months ago while being on a climb and something to do with a hilo and I responded and you agreed.

2015 FBI will be using the system mostly in the big cities but can still [providing they are interested in you or anyone they want to] can do it anywhere. You or someone overseas CIA takes over.

Maybe Snowden already knows this and believes it is wrong. Think I brought up the subject a while back with the TV show: Person of Interest and what the US will look like in the future[not the story line].

Plus he would know about the plans that we are downsizing our defense to make it more efficient by using more Special Forces units and the Pentagon being used less and the CIA will use rouge contractors like Eric Prince [Blackwater fame] R2 to do the dirty work with low paying a dollar a day mercs from countries in that area ME and using drones made in S. Africa.
All paid by the US taxpayer.

So maybe the more he tells in the following months the more the discussion about why he did it comes to light.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.

The president has no authority to stop the program without going to Congress, revealing the scope of its existence and goals, and explicitly asking Congress to shut it down. What are the odds any president would do that once one of them puts the wheels in motion? Zip, nada, none.

The political reality is just as you say: Obama couldn't help it and that's because BushCo both designed it all that way and because what exactly do you propose we do to protect the nation from a terrorist nuke attack in its place (no, there isn't an iPhone app for that).
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:38pm PT

You are correct he had to please the Republicans, same reason he has not closed Guantanamo Bay like he said he would.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Exactly,Healy
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
The Supreme Court ruled that police officers can take DNA samples without a warrant from people they arrest for serious crimes without violating the Fourth Amendment attention

Last part June 02 13 PBS Evening news

GWEN IFILL: Not whenever you're stopped. So, if you're pulled over by the side of the road and under suspicion of having done something, they can't swab you at the side of the road; you have to be under arrest, in custody?

MARCIA COYLE: Well, if you are arrested or if you are stopped by police on the road, the police can do a search incident to an arrest, or they can -- if they have probable cause to believe that you have committed a crime, they are usually required to get a warrant. But they also can search if they are concerned that their safety is at risk.

Think there will be any abuse of safety?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be.

Allowing the surveillance program to proceed had nothing to do with 'pleasing' republicans and everything to do with the choice of having to explicitly and publicly exposing it and asking Congress to shut it down with no clear alternative to present for our national defense.

So 'pleasing'? Please...

And again, what do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack which is a million times more likely than a Chinese paratrooper landing in LA?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
lostinshanghai, don't even mention the new law in NY.

But I digress ...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
"He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be."



Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
What do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack ...


Obviously a tough, but valid, question. Personally, I'm of the notion that a bully is hated by more folks on the playground than he is adored.

Imagine the cost of the Afghan war. The untold destruction, civilian lives lost, and emotional scars left on the country. Take the same money spent on bombs, and pour that into the infrastructure of the country. Schools for girls and women, upgraded agriculture infrastructure, etc, etc. Beleive it or not, trillion$ can actually still buy things these days, especially in third-world countries.

Now this might not rid us of the threat of Afghan Taliban. But I'll tell ya, the folks that gained by those schools and infrastructure would sure be on our side. And that goes a long way in the Afghan countryside.

Can you imagine the difference in the world if we did the same to Iraq, instead of bombing it back to the stone age?

I know, I'm high. But we'd better soon realize that any war on this planet is a civil war, and as michael so nicely pointed out above, there's bigger fish to fry than silly wars between ego-filled hawks.

Terrorists with bombs? They are sponsored by states who want to war with us, more than likely due to our ongoing foreign policy of imperialism.

Drones in Yemen anybody?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.

wrong

President Obama soon after inauguration signed an Executive Order to close GITMO, as he said he would do.

Congress refused to allow it to be closed.

If you recall, maybe not, there was a big debate in the Senate about where exactly to transfer the GITMO detainees. The Republicans were screaming those guys were SUCH a threat that they could not be held safely in non-military run prisons.

But really, what exactly do YOU care so much about those guys in GITMO anyway?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
A Conservative friend asked the other day,knowing i am a liberal socialist,"When are you going to own it?Economy,security,etc. etc.,When is not going to be Bush's fault"?


You probably know what i said.

Good question?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
on come on

the US economy went into RECESSION in November of 2007

we were losing millions and millions of jobs

the stock market lost 50% of its value, trillions of dollars of Americans savings destroyed

compare that to now for christ's sake

"own the economy now" ...damn right,

god people have short memories of the utter economic destruction under Bush
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
President Obama, for a fact, authorized and continued this program. Ergo, Bush II.

How, in fact, has Obama authorized this program? He has only "continued" the program by signing continuing appropriate bills for it.

And yet again, your alternative for defense against terrorist attacks? And as I've been saying it's simply one leg of a national defense strategy aimed at stopping terrorist attacks.

The basic problem here is that the program was shrouded in secrecy from the beginning - again, by BushCo, just like rendition, torture, and parallel sham 'intelligence' [manufacturing] organizations, etc. The programs should have been upfront and public explaining the national security goals, but then that would have also required acknowledging that our military - with it's uber-bloated budget, can't really protect use from the most viable threats.

In ten years time you're cell phones may monitor and automatically report radiation, earthquakes, chemical leaks, auto crashes and gunshots in urban areas. Welcome to the digital world.

Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

Given the very real threat, the only open question relative to Obama is what could he reasonably be or have been expected to do about it other than sign the continuing budget resolutions? I suspect you'd have quietly done exactly the same thing.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
let us be correct in that Obama not only approved the newly redrafted patriot act, but added greatly to it in language and scope.

A completely and utterly false claim. Obama signed the 'PATRIOT Sunsets Extension Act of 2011' which extends three existing provisions of the Patriot Act for four years: roving wiretaps, searches of business records, and conducting surveillance of "lone wolves". All three provisions were extended, but with new restrictions and congressional oversight placed on those powers.

So in fact, the truth is entirely the opposite of your claim.

The Gov. printing money to cover bad mortgage debt...

As opposed to the Gov. printing money to cover not one, but two, unnecessary pre-emptive wars...

Oh and Obama isn't my hero - I'm from Chicago and know better, I voted for Hillary...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Norton ,that is what i replied.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Why aren't the Republicans screaming for hell or you do not hear anything from McSain. Would it be anything to do with funds from the Koch brothers in the last election that they wasted by trying to defeat our current Pres.

And the answer to is the Koch brothers who have funded and is heavily invested in Facial Recognition Technology software and everthing that includes for making a good shot: skin tone, eyes, ears, nose, teeth and making sure new photos on getting your current or new auto license: no smiles.

So support Congress Corp. What can we do without them.

So color your hair a different color until they find out and need to upgrade their software.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
The Koch brothers make toilet paper (Georgia Pacific),

Carpet and Lycra (INVISTA),

Petroleum products (Flint Hill)

Fertilizer (Koch Fertilizer LLC),

Beef (Matador Land and Cattle)

and own a pipeline.

Get the tinfoil off your head.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Coz, that's true. I read an article about how home buyers are now competing against the banks to buy homes. And this is how I predicted it--the housing crisis would cause untold foreclosures, and then the banks [or the elite] can swoop in to buy up the real estate for a fraction of what was previously on the books.

Buying with cash? You can bet that ain't the "middle class" doing the buying.

But it's true, the stock market has hit all-time highs. What percentage of US folk have a rich portfolio nowa-days, when the top 0.1% earn half of all capital gains?

Wow, this subject seems to cover many things...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
No.

Answer to the question posed by the US national anthem.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
good going wilber!

it's pretty damn easy to prove how god awful ignorant they are, isn't it?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Get the tinfoil off your head.

Get your head out of your ass.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

here you say its bushco's fault. while bush certainly started it, when will obama take the responsibility for anything?


Given the very real threat, the only open question relative to Obama is what could he reasonably be or have been expected to do about it other than sign the continuing budget resolutions? I suspect you'd have quietly done exactly the same thing.

here you justify why obama had to keep it going, you argue that its the best decision.

so WTF is it? is it that obama actually decided it is alright (hell he justified it on tv), or is it still bushco's fault.

some people are so f*#king flawed in their logic that it blows my mind. you are as deluded as any hard core teabagger...f*#king amazing.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
"the current housing market is in no way indicative of a thriving economy."


Try building houses for a living and not believe that.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
he is not hedge, you are. obama owns this now so why the f*#k does healy try and blame bush?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
norton,

pull your head out of your ass. i said that healyje by his own post blames bush.......then turns around and says that the NSA is doing the right thing anyway.

you f*#kers need some remedial reading comprehension. but that does explain why you believe everything obama spoon feeds you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Barry Dunham debates Barrack Obama



[Click to View YouTube Video]

Barry can speak for himself.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:49am PT
pull your head out of your ass. i said that healyje by his own post blames bush.......then turns around and says that the NSA is doing the right thing anyway

I'm not saying "the NSA is doing the right thing", what I am saying is the threat of a terrorist nuke attack on one of our major ports is a very real and present threat. I am saying that this evolving digital world is highly complex. I am saying BushCo made the call that this was going to be our response and a major pillar of our national defense going forward. I am saying Obama has had zero power to stop it other than by refusing to sign the intelligence appropriation bills and telling the American people that he's simply stopping it with no viable alternative strategy to deal with the threat. If he did that you would be all on his case for leaving America defenseless.

Crikey, you clowns are always up in arms about 'border security' - this is all about 'securing the [digital] borders' or are you really that dense?

Again, Obama didn't authorize these programs, but neither he nor any other president is going to de-fund them without having some remote inkling of what we would do instead. Again, what are you suggesting is the alternative? Blind faith? A wink and a nod?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:06am PT
http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20130611/abc54ab2-03f0-4e1e-bb7a-2937989fdedf

Congress briefed on US surveillance programs

By LARA JAKES
From Associated Press
June 11, 2013 11:43 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — Dogged by fear and confusion about sweeping spy programs, intelligence officials sought to convince House lawmakers in an unusual briefing Tuesday that the government's years-long collection of phone records and Internet usage is necessary for protecting Americans — and does not trample on their privacy rights.

But the country's main civil liberties organization wasn't buying it, filing the most significant lawsuit against the massive phone record collection program so far. The American Civil Liberties Union and its New York chapter sued the federal government Tuesday in New York, asking a court to demand that the Obama administration end the program and purge the records it has collected.

The ACLU is claiming standing as a customer of Verizon, which was identified last week as the phone company the government had ordered to turn over daily records of calls made by all its customers.

The parade of FBI and intelligence officials who briefed the entire House on Tuesday was the latest attempt to soothe outrage over National Security Agency programs which collect billions of Americans' phone and Internet records. Since they were revealed last week, the programs have spurred distrust in the Obama administration from across the globe.

Several key lawmakers, including House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, refocused the furor Tuesday on the elusive 29-year-old former intelligence contractor who is claiming responsibility for revealing the surveillance programs to two newspapers. Boehner joined others in calling Edward Snowden a "traitor."

But attempts to defend the NSA systems by a leading Republican senator who supports them highlighted how confusingly intricate the programs are — even to the lawmakers who follow the issue closely.

Explaining the programs to reporters, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a member of the Senate Armed Services and Judiciary committees, initially described how the NSA uses pattern analysis of millions of phone calls from the United States, even if those numbers have no known connection to terrorism. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has vigorously maintained that there are strict limits on the programs to prevent intruding on Americans' privacy, and senior officials quickly denied Graham's description.

Graham later said he misspoke and that Clapper was right: The phone records are only accessed if there is a known connection to terrorism.

House lawmakers had more questions and, in many cases, more concerns about the level of surveillance by U.S. intelligence agencies Tuesday after FBI, Justice and other intelligence officials briefed them on the two NSA programs.

"Really it's a debate between public safety, how far we go with public safety and protecting us from terrorist attacks versus how far we go on the other side," said Rep. C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger of Maryland, top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "Congress needs to debate this issue."

He said his panel and the Judiciary Committee would examine what has happened and see whether there are recommendations for the future.

Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., like many members, said he was unaware of the scope of the data collection.

"I did not know 1 billion records a day were coming under the control of the federal executive branch," Sherman said.

Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., said there was a lot of heated discussion and that, "Congress didn't feel like they were informed."

Cohen conceded many lawmakers had failed to attend classified briefings in previous years where they could have learned more. "I think Congress has really found itself a little bit asleep at the wheel," he said.

One of the Senate's staunchest critics of the surveillance programs put Clapper in the crosshairs, accusing him of not being truthful in March when he asked during a Senate hearing whether the NSA collects any data on millions of Americans. Clapper said it did not. Officials generally do not discuss classified information in public settings, reserving discussion on top-secret programs for closed sessions with lawmakers where they will not be revealed to adversaries.

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said he had been dissatisfied with the NSA's answers to his questions and had given Clapper a day's advance notice prior to the hearing to prepare an answer. Not fully believing Clapper's public denial of the program, Wyden said he asked Clapper privately afterward whether he wanted to stick with a firm 'no' to the question.

On Tuesday, Wyden revealed his efforts to get Clapper to tell him about the program and called for hearings to discuss the programs. He was also among a group of senators who introduced legislation to force the government to declassify opinions of a secret court that authorizes the surveillance.

"The American people have the right to expect straight answers from the intelligence leadership to the questions asked by their representatives," Wyden said.

Clapper's spokesman did not comment on Wyden's statement. But in an interview with NBC News earlier this week, Clapper said he "responded in what I thought was the most truthful or least most untruthful manner, by saying, 'No,'" because the program was classified.

The Senate Intelligence Committee will be briefed on the programs again Thursday.

Congressional leaders and intelligence committee members have been routinely briefed about the spy programs, officials said, and Capitol Hill has at least twice renewed laws approving them. But the disclosure of their sheer scope stunned some lawmakers, shocked foreign allies from nations with strict privacy protections and emboldened civil liberties advocates who long have accused the government of being too invasive in the name of national security.

On the heels of new polls showing a majority of Americans support some aspects of the spy programs, lawmakers defended the daily surveillance of billions of phone and Internet records that they said have helped make the U.S. safer in the years after the 9/11 attacks. A poll by The Washington Post and the Pew Research Center conducted over the weekend found Americans generally prioritize the government's need to investigate terrorist threats over the need to protect personal privacy.

But a CBS News poll conducted June 9-10 showed that while most approve of government collection of phone records of Americans suspected of terrorist activity and Internet activities of foreigners, a majority disapproved of federal agencies collecting the phone records of ordinary Americans. Thirty percent agreed with the government's assessment that the revelation of the programs would hurt the U.S.' ability to prevent future terrorist attacks, while 57 percent said it would have no impact.

Instead, ire focused on Snowden, the CIA employee-turned-NSA contractor who admitted in an online interview that he exposed the programs in an attempt to safeguard American privacy rights from government snooping.

"He's a traitor," Boehner said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

"The disclosure of this information puts Americans at risk," Boehner said. "It shows our adversaries what our capabilities are. And it's a giant violation of the law."

His comments echoed a growing chorus in Congress condemning Snowden's actions.

"This is treason," Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., said late Monday.

Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., also chimed in Monday, calling the disclosure "an act of treason," and that Snowden should be prosecuted.

Only one American — fugitive al-Qaida propaganda chief Adam Gadahn — has been charged with treason since the World War II era. A law enforcement official said prosecutors were building a case against Snowden on Tuesday and had not decided what charges would be brought against him.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because there is no final decision on the charges. But it's unlikely that Snowden would be charged with treason, which carries the death penalty as a punishment, and therefore could complicate extradition from foreign countries.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:45am PT
from the net

"The 54 words of the Fourth Amendment are remarkably clear: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Seem pretty clear to me. The constitution has be shat on by Bush and Obama both

Shame!

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Well, if you are one of those constitutional literalist like Scalia and a lot of conservatives and libertarians then what the NSA is surveilling aren't 'papers' but rather bytes of aether.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:08am PT
Well, if you are one of those constitutional literalist like a Scalia and a lot of conservatives and libertarians then what the NSA is surveilling aren't 'papers' but rather bytes of aether.

Those bytes of aether would be "and effects".
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Unhinged, and Dr F will never get their tummy tats removed.


splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:35am PT
hey, here is a freaky thing that happened to me just a couple months ago. i listen to a lot of youtube music vids. one evening i had either just clicked on some vid, or was trying to get the lyrics to a vid/song and my computor totally froze up. this notice appeared and locked the computor onto it. it said it was from the FBI and that they were fining me for downloading unauthorized music or something or other. they wanted $250 wihtin so many hours. i figured it was some sort of virus/scam as soon as i saw that. i crashed my computer and reloaded it. anyway, i found out it was just that (a scam). the "freaky" thing about it, though, was that they had taken my picture (through my own webcam which i never use). and posted it with the notice. it was taken just seconds before my computer locked up. my point is, if they can do that, what could the real fbi do? yikes!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:40am PT
"...particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

They didn't do that. They just siezed everybody's everything.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:52am PT
What commie countries did he run to?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Get free 3 month trial app from SEECRYPT.COM (after $3 a mo) that will hide all calling metadata from snooping alphabet soup g-men.

Receive and make calls from an iPhone with double encrypted one time use keys
and prevent anyone from ever knowing to who or the number dialed.

Even your service provider will not know you ever made a call. Just some data bits are used and look as if you used data without any id or a persons phone number.


http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/06/new-app-claims-to-prevent-government-eavesdropping-on-cell-phones/

https://www.facebook.com/Seecrypt
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
The government stealing everyone's data but saying its ok because
they have not looked at it yet, is like bank robbers claiming its ok
because they have not had time to spend all the money yet.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Being in agreement with coz is scary. Being in agreement with coz and karlbaba at the same time?

That's a Game 7 3-pointer, nawmean?

These are, indeed, strange times, DMT. I've found myself not only agreeing with, but bolstering the arguments of Norton and Joe Hedge the last few days.

I think you've put it well, though, about the ridiculously partisan posts we've seen on this issue (e.g. [choose one] [_] Bush bad/ Obama good or [_] Bush good/ Obama bad).

John
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Splitter, look at this FBI warning about the virus that attacked you.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/august/new-internet-scam
dirtbag

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
I'm not sure who I agree with. I see both sides. I do think Obama has some ownership of this.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Here's what he told the NY Times:
“People who think I made a mistake in picking Hong Kong as a location misunderstand my intentions,” he told the newspaper, The South China Morning Post. “I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality.”

Translation: "Oh crap, me and my sorry-assed high school education didn't do a great job in planning my next move. Well I don't want to admit I did a boneheaded move by coming to HK, I'll just try to play it cool . . ."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Hong Kong's overlords in Beijing are never going to let Hong Kong extradite Snowden to the U.S.

Look at CNN's top headline now on cnn.com:

"NSA leaker says U.S. hacks China"
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
The real question is why he didn't take his girlfriend to Hong Kong with him.

Are pics like these even allowed on the Taco now?

Or is Snowden's girlfriend "Too Hot for the Taco(R)"?

We report. You decide!





[youtube=http://youtu.be/RRaPeBC-NSs]



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
I wonder if NSA will outsource? I bet the Chinese can do it cheaper!

Actually, DMT, the NSA did outsource. They just may not have imported the outsourced product (i.e., they purported to use domestic companies.) Snowden was an employee of an outsourcee.

John
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
One sentence story

interesting timing

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cia-deputy-director-michael-morell-resigns
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
A. I think the current state of partisanship of politics is poisonous. President Bush bad, President Obama good - naive. In many ways they are indistinguishable, and this topic is certainly one of them. Big brother is big brother regardless of party affiliation. Fascists can come from either extreme of the political spectrum.

Again, complete claptrap and if you're now subscribing to Jonah Goldberg's obscene nonsense I'm somewhat at a loss for words.

B. I do not believe for a second about the 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'. Not for a second. Would the Al Gore administration or the Kerry administration have agreed to build it? YES.

I didn't say, 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'; I did say that in the wake of 9/11, and understanding it could have been much worse, BushCo made a call to put a 'Manhattan Project'-scale digital communications surveillance and radiation monitoring program into place. What we're debating today is exactly that.

Would Gore or Kerry have built it? Gore no, Kerry probably yes. Gore certainly would have had a much more public exploration of the issue and any implementation.

Coz, my nuke terrorist scenario is simply the most realistic and likely way anyone is going to make a nuke attack against us in the future. We, the Russians, Europeans, China, India and Pakistan built hundreds of container-capable artillery nukes not to mention 'suitcase' and mortar nukes.



And my speculation on that front is entirely validated by the occasional news stories about cargo vessel interdictions, the recent Chicago TSA VIPR team stopping a Metro train (not subway) after a radiation alert, the development of radiation monitoring bouys, and monitoring container straddle carriers.

Not to mention DHS publicly-stated goals of 100% container ship / container inspection coverage and cargo airlines public resistance to 100% coverage of air cargo tells you DHS is in a full-court monitoring press that is the radiation monitoring element of a strategic program of which Prism likely represents the comm element of.
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcKVgWYkZa4

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Russians, Europeans, China, India and Pakistan built hundreds of container-capable artillery nukes not to mention 'suitcase' and mortar nukes.

So what does that have to do with monitoring EVERY domestic phone call?

(As far as I'm concerned international communications traffic is fair game)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
For TGT and Dave.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_analysis

Traffic analysis

Traffic analysis is the process of intercepting and examining messages in order to deduce information from patterns in communication. It can be performed even when the messages are encrypted and cannot be decrypted. In general, the greater the number of messages observed, or even intercepted and stored, the more can be inferred from the traffic. Traffic analysis can be performed in the context of military intelligence or counter-intelligence, and is a concern in computer security.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Some serious sh*t is going on if he left a sweetie that that behind.

But life goes on. Perhaps the girlfriend will go to Yosemite and take up rock climbing? And needs some instruction...




Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Healyje,

A man-portable nuke can't just sit on a shelf for a period of time, and then be expected to go "bang" when the pin's pulled. If they're going to work, they require frequent and complicated maintanence, beyond the capacity of most governments - let alone a bunch of illiterate, Koran thumping cavemen.

These aren't AK's.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Based on this article, it looks like mainly Democrats in Congress were the ones who questioned the surveillance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-edward-snowdens-nsa-leaks-are-the-backlash-of-too-much-secrecy/2013/06/10/eddb4462-d215-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?wprss=rss_dana-milbank

The Justice Department and the DNI promised a new effort to declassify opinions issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court; Justice official Lisa Monaco, now Obama’s counterterrorism director, said all significant FISA rulings would be reviewed for declassification. But no new opinions were declassified under the initiative.

The House last year turned back attempts to require public reports on the general outlines of the government’s surveillance programs. The various disclosure proposals, offered by Democratic Reps. Bobby Scott (Va.), Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.) and Sheila Jackson Lee (Tex.), were defeated by the Judiciary Committee.

In the Senate, amendments to provide modest disclosures and declassifications, offered by Wyden and fellow Democratic Sens. Jeff Merkley (Ore.) and Mark Udall (Colo.) during the FISA renewal in December, were all defeated.

The FISA court itself colluded in the secrecy. After senators asked the court to provide declassified summaries of its decisions, the chief FISA judge, Reggie B. Walton, responded with a letter on March 27 citing “serious obstacles” to the request.

“It was a shoddy performance all around,” Aftergood said Monday. “The pervasive secrecy on this topic created an information vacuum. If congressional oversight was not going to fill it in, it turned out leaks would. That’s not the optimal solution.”

----


Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked Clapper [ director of national intelligence ] at a Senate hearing in March, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

“No, sir,” Clapper testified.

“It does not?” Wyden pressed.

“Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.”

We now know that Clapper was not telling the truth. The National Security Agency is quite wittingly collecting phone records of millions of Americans, and much more.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
I can't see how anyone would say the Clapper did not outright lie.

They ought to have him back before the committee in contempt of perjury charges
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Holy Data Collection, Batman !!



Curt
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
For TGT and Dave.

Don't need a lecture on traffic analysis, I've been following its successes since the beginning and it's impressively effective.

There's no problem with using it for international communications as far as I'm concerned.

But here's the big rub when used domestically;

No government has ever refrained from abusing the power that it has been granted! That's what the Constitution is there to prevent. It's a limiting, not an empowering document, a characteristic that Obama has publicly complained about on several occasions.

What's to stop the administrative state from using it to say analyze the campaign traffic of the other party or grass roots political movements.

What if say Johnson had had it to crush the anti war movement, or a J. Edgar to pull the strings of every politician he encountered. (he did a good enough job without it)Or Clinton to punish the anti abortion movement.

There's a reason the fourth amendment is there and if we throw away our political freedom, the muzzies have won.

Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Here's a conjecture about one use the metadata will be put to. It includes the source and destination phone of each call. A truly enormous, 300 million by 300 million node matrix will be constructed. If phone i sends to phone j then node (i,j) will be set to 1, otherwise 0. These are sometimes called connectivity or topology matrices. There are many theorems and algorithms associated with these. Djikstra has an algorithm for determing the shortest path between any two nodes.

This matrix will clearly be mostly zeros. There may be theories as to what a terrorist subnetwork will look like within this giant matrix.

Dont't infer from this that I support this data harvesting. I am strongly opposed.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
You have to connect a helluva lot of dots between a database with everyone's phone records and nuke being smuggled into the country.

You don't have to connect hardly any dots at all once you come to the conclusion whomever might attempt such an attack will likely have a digital footprint - and clearly BushCo came to that exact conclusion - and are building out for 100% coverage of domestic and US-foreign calls. Now that's not my (or Marine Corps Lt. General Paul K. Van Riper's) conclusion, but it was BuchCo's or we wouldn't be arguing the point now.

[ Jonah Goldberg is 'intellectual jujitsu' author of one of the new right's pillars of modern conservative 'thought': Liberal Fascism (his mother is Lucianne Goldberg, who 'advised' Linda Trip in the Lewinsky scandal) ]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:03am PT
I have no doubt at all that, should they be asked (and I'm sure they will be), SCOTUS justices will rule it's entirely legal to harvest call metadata under the Patriot Act's business records provision. That's why it was written the way that it was - transcripts of your calls? No. Telco metadata records (their business records) about your calls? Sure, no problem under the business records provision.

I understand it 'feels' wrong, illegal, and unconstitutional, but I very highly doubt that what with John Yoo having been involved with crafting it and especially since half the intent of the damn bill was to provide legal cover for this surveillance (I consider Yoo to be a real Mengele of the legal profession):

From a Frontline interview with John Yoo on 1/10/2007:

Frontline: And gathering intelligence then means gathering intelligence at home as well as abroad.

Yoo: I think that's right. Again, if you're going to gather intelligence and follow members of Al Qaeda outside the United States, you don't want to make the United States some kind of safe haven where once they cross the borders into our country it actually becomes harder to find them and track them down. That would be perverse; exactly the reverse kind of powers that you want our government to have when it's fighting especially this kind of enemy, which tries to infiltrate our borders and launch surprise attacks.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:07am PT
You are so full of sh#t Dr. F. The Dems had control of the House and the Senate for almost 2 years after Obama was elected.

Proof that Obama knows it is illegal and more promises he never intended to keep.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:19am PT
Bit of a side topic... sorry for posting the lengthy full text, but otherwise you have to subscribe:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group?page=full

Wednesday,   June 12,   2013

Inside the NSA's Ultra-Secret China Hacking Group

Deep within the National Security Agency, an elite, rarely discussed team of hackers and spies is targeting America's enemies abroad.

BY MATTHEW M. AID | JUNE 10, 2013

This weekend, U.S. President Barack Obama sat down for a series of meetings with China's newly appointed leader, Xi Jinping. We know that the two leaders spoke at length about the topic du jour -- cyber-espionage -- a subject that has long frustrated officials in Washington and is now front and center with the revelations of sweeping U.S. data mining. The media has focused at length on China's aggressive attempts to electronically steal U.S. military and commercial secrets, but Xi pushed back at the "shirt-sleeves" summit, noting that China, too, was the recipient of cyber-espionage. But what Obama probably neglected to mention is that he has his own hacker army, and it has burrowed its way deep, deep into China's networks.

When the agenda for the meeting at the Sunnylands estate outside Palm Springs, California, was agreed to several months ago, both parties agreed that it would be a nice opportunity for President Xi, who assumed his post in March, to discuss a wide range of security and economic issues of concern to both countries. According to diplomatic sources, the issue of cybersecurity was not one of the key topics to be discussed at the summit. Sino-American economic relations, climate change, and the growing threat posed by North Korea were supposed to dominate the discussions.
Then, two weeks ago, White House officials leaked to the press that Obama intended to raise privately with Xi the highly contentious issue of China's widespread use of computer hacking to steal U.S. government, military, and commercial secrets. According to a Chinese diplomat in Washington who spoke in confidence, Beijing was furious about the sudden elevation of cybersecurity and Chinese espionage on the meeting's agenda. According to a diplomatic source in Washington, the Chinese government was even angrier that the White House leaked the new agenda item to the press before Washington bothered to tell Beijing about it.

So the Chinese began to hit back. Senior Chinese officials have publicly accused the U.S. government of hypocrisy and have alleged that Washington is also actively engaged in cyber-espionage. When the latest allegation of Chinese cyber-espionage was leveled in late May in a front-page Washington Post article, which alleged that hackers employed by the Chinese military had stolen the blueprints of over three dozen American weapons systems, the Chinese government's top Internet official, Huang Chengqing, shot back that Beijing possessed "mountains of data" showing that the United States has engaged in widespread hacking designed to steal Chinese government secrets. This weekend's revelations about the National Security Agency's PRISM and Verizon metadata collection from a 29-year-old former CIA undercover operative named Edward J. Snowden, who is now living in Hong Kong, only add fuel to Beijing's position.

But Washington never publicly responded to Huang's allegation, and nobody in the U.S. media seems to have bothered to ask the White House if there is a modicum of truth to the Chinese charges.

It turns out that the Chinese government's allegations are essentially correct. According to a number of confidential sources, a highly secretive unit of the National Security Agency (NSA), the U.S. government's huge electronic eavesdropping organization, called the Office of Tailored Access Operations, or TAO, has successfully penetrated Chinese computer and telecommunications systems for almost 15 years, generating some of the best and most reliable intelligence information about what is going on inside the People's Republic of China.

Hidden away inside the massive NSA headquarters complex at Fort Meade, Maryland, in a large suite of offices segregated from the rest of the agency, TAO is a mystery to many NSA employees. Relatively few NSA officials have complete access to information about TAO because of the extraordinary sensitivity of its operations, and it requires a special security clearance to gain access to the unit's work spaces inside the NSA operations complex. The door leading to its ultramodern operations center is protected by armed guards, an imposing steel door that can only be entered by entering the correct six-digit code into a keypad, and a retinal scanner to ensure that only those individuals specially cleared for access get through the door.

According to former NSA officials interviewed for this article, TAO's mission is simple. It collects intelligence information on foreign targets by surreptitiously hacking into their computers and telecommunications systems, cracking passwords, compromising the computer security systems protecting the targeted computer, stealing the data stored on computer hard drives, and then copying all the messages and data traffic passing within the targeted email and text-messaging systems. The technical term of art used by NSA to describe these operations is computer network exploitation (CNE).

TAO is also responsible for developing the information that would allow the United States to destroy or damage foreign computer and telecommunications systems with a cyberattack if so directed by the president. The organization responsible for conducting such a cyberattack is U.S. Cyber Command (Cybercom), whose headquarters is located at Fort Meade and whose chief is the director of the NSA, Gen. Keith Alexander.

Commanded since April of this year by Robert Joyce, who formerly was the deputy director of the NSA's Information Assurance Directorate (responsible for protecting the U.S. government's communications and computer systems), TAO, sources say, is now the largest and arguably the most important component of the NSA's huge Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) Directorate, consisting of over 1,000 military and civilian computer hackers, intelligence analysts, targeting specialists, computer hardware and software designers, and electrical engineers.

The sanctum sanctorum of TAO is its ultramodern operations center at Fort Meade called the Remote Operations Center (ROC), which is where the unit's 600 or so military and civilian computer hackers (they themselves CNE operators) work in rotating shifts 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
These operators spend their days (or nights) searching the ether for computers systems and supporting telecommunications networks being utilized by, for example, foreign terrorists to pass messages to their members or sympathizers. Once these computers have been identified and located, the computer hackers working in the ROC break into the targeted computer systems electronically using special software designed by TAO's own corps of software designers and engineers specifically for this purpose, download the contents of the computers' hard drives, and place software implants or other devices called "buggies" inside the computers' operating systems, which allows TAO intercept operators at Fort Meade to continuously monitor the email and/or text-messaging traffic coming in and out of the computers or hand-held devices.

TAO's work would not be possible without the team of gifted computer scientists and software engineers belonging to the Data Network Technologies Branch, who develop the sophisticated computer software that allows the unit's operators to perform their intelligence collection mission. A separate unit within TAO called the Telecommunications Network Technologies Branch (TNT) develops the techniques that allow TAO's hackers to covertly gain access to targeted computer systems and telecommunications networks without being detected. Meanwhile, TAO's Mission Infrastructure Technologies Branch develops and builds the sensitive computer and telecommunications monitoring hardware and support infrastructure that keeps the effort up and running.

TAO even has its own small clandestine intelligence-gathering unit called the Access Technologies Operations Branch, which includes personnel seconded by the CIA and the FBI, who perform what are described as "off-net operations," which is a polite way of saying that they arrange for CIA agents to surreptitiously plant eavesdropping devices on computers and/or telecommunications systems overseas so that TAO's hackers can remotely access them from Fort Meade.

It is important to note that TAO is not supposed to work against domestic targets in the United States or its possessions. This is the responsibility of the FBI, which is the sole U.S. intelligence agency chartered for domestic telecommunications surveillance. But in light of information about wider NSA snooping, one has to prudently be concerned about whether TAO is able to perform its mission of collecting foreign intelligence without accessing communications originating in or transiting through the United States.

Since its creation in 1997, TAO has garnered a reputation for producing some of the best intelligence available to the U.S. intelligence community not only about China, but also on foreign terrorist groups, espionage activities being conducted against the United States by foreign governments, ballistic missile and weapons of mass destruction developments around the globe, and the latest political, military, and economic developments around the globe.

According to a former NSA official, by 2007 TAO's 600 intercept operators were secretly tapping into thousands of foreign computer systems and accessing password-protected computer hard drives and emails of targets around the world. As detailed in my 2009 history of NSA, The Secret Sentry, this highly classified intercept program, known at the time as Stumpcursor, proved to be critically important during the U.S. Army's 2007 "surge" in Iraq, where it was credited with single-handedly identifying and locating over 100 Iraqi and al Qaeda insurgent cells in and around Baghdad. That same year, sources report that TAO was given an award for producing particularly important intelligence information about whether Iran was trying to build an atomic bomb.

By the time Obama became president of the United States in January 2009, TAO had become something akin to the wunderkind of the U.S. intelligence community. "It's become an industry unto itself," a former NSA official said of TAO at the time. "They go places and get things that nobody else in the IC [intelligence community] can."

Given the nature and extraordinary political sensitivity of its work, it will come as no surprise that TAO has always been, and remains, extraordinarily publicity shy. Everything about TAO is classified top secret codeword, even within the hypersecretive NSA. Its name has appeared in print only a few times over the past decade, and the handful of reporters who have dared inquire about it have been politely but very firmly warned by senior U.S. intelligence officials not to describe its work for fear that it might compromise its ongoing efforts. According to a senior U.S. defense official who is familiar with TAO's work, "The agency believes that the less people know about them [TAO] the better."

The word among NSA officials is that if you want to get promoted or recognized, get a transfer to TAO as soon as you can. The current head of the NSA's SIGINT Directorate, Teresa Shea, 54, got her current job in large part because of the work she did as chief of TAO in the years after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when the unit earned plaudits for its ability to collect extremely hard-to-come-by information during the latter part of George W. Bush's administration. We do not know what the information was, but sources suggest that it must have been pretty important to propel Shea to her position today. But according to a recently retired NSA official, TAO "is the place to be right now."

There's no question that TAO has continued to grow in size and importance since Obama took office in 2009, which is indicative of its outsized role. In recent years, TAO's collection operations have expanded from Fort Meade to some of the agency's most important listening posts in the United States. There are now mini-TAO units operating at the huge NSA SIGINT intercept and processing centers at NSA Hawaii at Wahiawa on the island of Oahu; NSA Georgia at Fort Gordon, Georgia; and NSA Texas at the Medina Annex outside San Antonio, Texas; and within the huge NSA listening post at Buckley Air Force Base outside Denver.

The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities. The "mountains of data" statement by China's top Internet official, Huang Chengqing, is clearly an implied threat by Beijing to release this data. Thus it is unlikely that President Obama pressed President Xi too hard at the Sunnydale summit on the question of China's cyber-espionage activities. As any high-stakes poker player knows, you can only press your luck so far when the guy on the other side of the table knows what cards you have in your hand.

Matthew M. Aid is the author of Intel Wars: The Secret History of the Fight Against Terror and The Secret Sentry: The Untold History of the National Security Agency, and is co-editor with Cees Wiebes of Secrets of Signals Intelligence During the Cold War and Beyond.

FOREIGN POLICY is published by the FP Group, a division of The Washington Post Company 
All contents ©2013 The Foreign Policy Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
MisterE

Social climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:27am PT
War is at Home - you knew it was inevitable.

Turnkey Tyranny is so hot right now.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:26am PT
Are you Ungoogleable? It is the newest cool.
Found the below from an unknown blogger with rather scary sop.


I'll let you all in on a little secret that makes defeating Google
(and everyone else) easy.

Lie.

To everyone.

The phone company, the utility company, your landlord, the bank,
everyone. Do it consistently. Give each one of these data tracking
nitwits a different name, address, contact phone (none of them need be
real, except perhaps for the bank, if you use one, have that mail sent to
you out of state). Make ups SSN for those the "demand" it. Pay your
deposits and forget about it. Lie to the DMV about where you live when
you get your license (if you bother with one, I don't). Same goes with
your insurance company. I don't plan on filing a claim anyway - why
should I? So I can pay a higher premium? (yes, I have insurance, it's
to protect the other guy, not me).


Lie to your neighbors (you may need to move). Lie to your "friends". If
they're really your friends, they won't care what your real name is
anyway.
\

Unpublished phone number? That only puts your name on a list. If you
don't want hassling phone calls, don't give out your phone number. Lie
when forced to reveal what is not in your best interest.


Lying needs to become a part of your defense. Your government lies to you
constantly, about everything. We are under no moral or ethical
obligations to cooperate with them on any level.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:38am PT
Turnkey Tyranny is so hot right now.

Lots of jobs, that's for sure, though not really in climbing hot spots:

http://www.clearancejobs.com/careers/6654/booz-allen-hamilton-careers
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:09am PT
This shows what an a$$clown Freidman has become:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a-whistle.html?src=me&ref=general

WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:18am PT
You would be surprised what is really going on.

Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.

You are all running blind as bats on this whole fiasco.

But that's nothing new at all here .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.


Now that we are not at war? Since when?
Check out this link.
http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx

This is no comment on the NSA at all. Merely a comment on your assertion that we're not at war anymore.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Ronster,

Snowden and m anning are true patriots, and history will remember them as such. You really think foudning fathers wanted the gov't up your a$$?

Snowden is in China for free-speech asylum from the US. You can't see the sad irony in this?!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
I love it when people say what the founding fathers would have done if they
lived today. I wish I could afford a crystal ball.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

DMT

Exactly, this "We are at war forever" BS is just an excuse to expand power and do whatever they want.

And it turns out Google IS evil. If you have Chrome or some google software on your computer, and try to block it from sending out information on you, the little app keeps reinstalling it in other places on your computer to get around the restrictions, just like malware. They suck.

Peace

karl
beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
It's all Mimi's fault, she works for the NSA and just wants to check out my hot action now that she's all button down with that knuckle dragger Stevie Whatshisname.
beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Oh and here's a time line for all the folks that haven't been paying attention.

Timeline of NSA Domestic Spying


michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
If Snowden is a whistleblower trying to protect innocent Americans, why is he also telling everyone that the US is spying on China? Is that to protect Americans? Can someone explain how using your security clearance to reveal our government's (alleged) spying activities against another country (a country which clearly hacks into our computers on a daily basis) is protecting innocent Americans? Can it really be argued that it is coincidence that he reveals this information about China while he is hiding in Hong Kong and asking the Chinese and Hong Kong governments to NOT extradite him. Is this really any different than outright treason by someone who gives classified information to a foreign country and then asks that country for protection? What would people say if Snowden also told Iran about the spying we are doing on them, and then bought a one-way ticket to Tehran? Would people still be calling him a hero?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
Some of the reasons why the story was told: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile

"For an American, the traditional home for the kind of story Snowden was planning to reveal would have been the New York Times. But during extensive interviews last week with a Guardian team, he recalled how dismayed he had been to discover the Times had a great scoop in election year 2004 – that the Bush administration, post 9/11, allowed the NSA to snoop on US citizens without warrants – but had sat on it for a year before publishing.

Snowden said this was a turning point for him, confirming his belief that traditional media outlets could not be trusted. He looked around for alternative journalists, those who were both anti-establishment and at home with blogging and other social media. The member of this generation that he most trusted was the Guardian commentator Glenn Greenwald. "

"In what were to be the last words of the interview, he (Snowden) quoted Benjamin Franklin: "Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.""
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder

Ron, do you have a source for this? Can you show any evidence that this took place?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Norton,

Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.

John
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China........BUT you DONT give our secrets away to the opposite side.

Ron, I'm curious about why you think Snowden gave away secrets to China? I haven't seen anything in the press stating that. Sure he's saying the US has been hacking China, but that's not exactly a secret.

The link I pasted last night gives far more detail as to how the NSA is spying in China, and its published by the Washington Post, with info pre-Snowden. It states, "The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities."

All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."

That's a very broad statement, without much detail. That the NSA "hack(s) network backbones" should come as no surprise to anyone who pays attention to what the NSA is all about.

I would like to hear a lot more technical details from Snowden about NSA data collection within the US. That concerns me a lot more than what the NSA is doing in China.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Worth a repeat:

the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Ron stated:
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China.. He ran right to them. He didnt run to Oprah, or Barbra Walters


Ron, are you making stuff up again?

you know, that old "if I can think it in my head, then it must be true" stuff?

there just is no reason to not go with what is known to be true, why make stuff up Ron?

people call you out constantly but you just keep rolling along, never ever learning from it

ok, let's do it again

show your source, Ron, prove it

show some links where YOU got this information that he SOLD intelligence to CHINA

why do you keeping doing this sh!t, Ron?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Ron's sources? Here they are...

Its the Gubmint, Damnit!
By: Ron Anderson
BSP
2012

Know-It-All From Moundhouse
By: Ron Anderson
Retarded Press
2008

My Sonar Says So
By: Ron Anderson
ImmaIdiot
2005

Sources? More Like Sauced
By: Ron Anderson
IG Fool
2003
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
...for telling China specifically how we spy on them...

What are the "specifics" Ron, and how do you know this?

edit - links, etc. will be appreciated. not all of us are able to "channel" this information from the cosmos....
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Have been watching some interesting video interviews with former NSA technical director, William Binney. He was with the NSA for 36 years and resigned in 2001, when he decided the level of NSA monitoring within the USA was breaking the constitution. He also complained of billions of dollars (of our money) being spent on system after system, with little oversight.

From Apr. 12, 2012 in NYC - http://archive.org/details/LauraPoitrasPresentsASurveillanceTeach-inWithJacobAppelbaumBill

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out

http://www.whistleblower.org/program-areas/homeland-security-a-human-rights/surveillance/nsa-whistleblowers-bill-binney-a-j-kirk-wiebe
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Yeah, let's look for jihadis everywhere except where they are.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.

Now this couldn't be more spot on...

Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.

No, I didn't say that. I said if you believe a terrorist nuke attack is likely to have a digital footprint then it's pretty hard to argue against the strategic radiation and communications monitoring decision taken by BushCo for our national defense going forward. Certainly not without proffering a viable alternative or justifying why none is required.

But as I keep saying, it is a different world and our digital toys are two-edge swords which can be used against us. They've certainly remade the face of asymmetric warfare and remoted-IED's are responsible for the majority of our losses, injuries, and long-term costs of the current wars. They do the same on the terrorist front (played a big role in the Mumbai attack for instance).

They're part of an NSA spy ring dedicated to spying on Americans.

Huh, on what f*#king planet is that? They are a commercial entity that has been compelled by the government - under the powers vested by the Patriot Act's business records provision - to comply with orders to allow access to their clickstream and analyses.

I mean, that's what Google is, its what that company does...quibble as to commercial vs. government, the apparatus of google is built to spy on people, simple as that, built from the ground up for that specific purpose, to sell the data. So they sold some to the government - this is a surprise?

No, that's not what google is. They do sell data to advertisers. they did not sell any data to the government. I expect a little more precision from someone who does what you do for a living.

Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.

Again, on what planet? Oh, that's right, planet Vedas where all the answers are carved in stone reliefs and pre-ordained.

Snowden sold out to CHINA.

Ron, dude, at this point I'm pretty sure one of the US cartel gangs has a low-dose LSD drip hooked up to your water supply. Man, if you keep reading one crank, nutjob blog and website after another you are going to be even more completely lost and drama-queened out then you already are. You're definitely getting crowned the reigning ST political Queen.

The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

This is also spot on and that's really been the case since Nixon and why the War Powers Resolution was enacted over Nixon's veto. The WPR wasn't the best response to those abuses and has caused no shortage of problems of it's own. I've laid out my own thoughts here on what 'war powers' the president should have and what would have to happen for the US to actually engage in any significant military conflict.

What is Iran the boogeyman? Of COURSE the US is spying on Iran and China, hacking away at their systems even as they try to hack away at ours.

This is another example of the Internet forever changing the face of societies and 'war'. There are national, extra-national, commercial, military, criminal, and individual entities engaged in digital piracy of any and all forms you can think of. Until we redesign computing and networking down to the chip level for secure and verifiable systems and messaging (more security at a high price) all nations, corporations, and individuals will be in a continual state of cyber warfare. Unlike the drug war, this one is very, very real.

The fact he ran to China, however, does suggest treason, agreed.

I'd think someone who's traveled as much as you would realize that, even after going back to the Chinese, Hong Kong is still a great place to make connections. I can't say I would have announced there, but this is another case of the Internet really shrinking the planet and options for someone in Snowden's position. I mean, even Lesotho, Lichtenstein and Tonga all have extradition treaties with the US. Jumping from HK to the Maldives would have been an option, but once in the Maldives you're pretty much not going anywhere else and are permanently in a goldfish bowl.

It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.

They are looking at the metadata without warrants under Patriot Act authorization. If they see a pattern in the data they don't like you can bet they issue a warrant for the associated content and I suspect those warrants cover large buckets of data, not thimblefuls.

the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing

That is not the case. It may feel that way in 'spirit', but that is not an accurate characterization of either the warranting or the oversight.

Regardless, a traitor is someone that steals intel then SELLS it to the competition. Manning and this latest jerk did exactly that. They didnt just volunteer it up for the good of man,, noooo they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder.

Ron. See above post and, please, get back on your meds - for the children if no one else.

All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."

The world's main fiber trunks are definitely all surveilled and, really, if you tap sea cable landing sites in Hawaii, NYC, LA, FL, Seattle, England and anywhere on the Africa One cable and you pretty much have it all.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
They are not part of anyone's 'spy ring' except their own.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
We'll have to agree to disagree on that characterization.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
Google didn't know your porn preferences either, at first. It's part of the big data learning curve of the last 10-15 years. That uncertainty is also why communications monitoring is paired with expanding radiation monitoring coverage. The question isn't do they know everything or can in fact detect such an attack, but rather should they try. It's actually a pretty stark choice - there is no 'sort of try' when it comes to this sort of thing - it's either do or don't. And if the answer is don't, then that decision is not necessarily without serious consequences of its own.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
LOL



June 11, 2013

The Honorable Darrell Issa
Chairman, House Committee on Government Reform & Oversight
2157 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Chairman Issa:

Thank you for your ongoing efforts to investigate abuses of civil liberties by employees of the Internal Revenue Service.

These abuses seem to indicate a larger, higher pattern of ideologically-driven harassment of Americans which Congress has an obligation to fully investigate with every tool at our disposal.

Frankly I am disappointed by revelations Obama administration personnel have been less than forward about what they knew and when they knew it.

As you know, recent revelations show the National Security Agency has been keeping an “ongoing, daily” log of every domestic phone call in the United States.

I respectfully request your Committee subpoena the records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel.

If President Obama is collecting such information, he certainly would want us to use it. If he has nothing to hide he has nothing to be afraid of.

Warmest wishes,



STEVE STOCKMAN
Member of Congress
WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
The govts. manufactures terrorists.

The govts. supplies the terrorists with what they need to terrorize.

Then the govt. creates fear mongers like healyje to create the infrastructures to keep him safe from their own terrorists which they control.

Stooopid Americans can't for the life of them understand a simple thing.

Instead they buy all the garbage that's spoon fed to them daily ......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Yer too dense to recognize satire even when it slaps you upside the head.


Stockman requests subpoena of NSA’s White House, IRS phone logs
Jun 11, 2013
Press Release
‘If Obama has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,’ says Stockman

WASHINGTON – Congressman Steve Stockman (R-Texas 36) Tuesday asked the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee to subpoena all National Security Agency records of phone calls between employees of the White House and the Internal Revenue Service.

Stockman’s office hand delivered a letter Tuesday afternoon to the Committee’s office requesting a subpoena “of all records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel” collected under the NSA’s recently-revealed PRISM program.

“Obama assures the public he only collected this information to uncover wrongdoing and protect civil liberties. Clearly he would want us to use it to investigate this case, because otherwise he’d be lying,” said Stockman.

“If Obama has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,” said Stockman.

“This case must be investigated fully, given admitted wrongdoing by the IRS, its potentially criminal implications and revelations the White House has been less than honest about what they knew and when,” said Stockman. “Obama says the PRISM program is perfectly legal, so there should be no problem whatsoever in providing the information on White House and IRS phone calls.”

“The only possible scenario in which the administration refuses to comply would be if it would reveal unconstitutional or illegal behavior,” said Stockman.

Stockman’s office also electronically delivered the same letter to the Homeland Security Committee chaired by Rep. Michael McCaul. The text of the letter follows:
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
And Benghazi was about arming these pleasant folks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/11/report-syrian-rebels-executed-a-14-year-old-boy-for-insulting-islam/

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Ah, Werner, the place just wouldn't be the same without you.

All I can hope is that, as a member of an elite government action team, you're not out there manufacturing rescues
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/ancient-us-weapon-in-syria/

Then M40s somehow came into the hands of rebels in Libya and Syria. Suddenly, the 106mm – light, cheap, easily transportable, simple to operate, and packing a punch all out of proportion to its modest size — has emerged as a possible Great Asymmetric Weapon of the Day.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 14, 2013 - 02:50am PT
Daniel Ellsberg's point of view:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america

"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.

Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought over 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the US constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that unconstitutionally sweeping warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, almost totally deferential to executive requests. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp.""
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:34am PT
I found the following video to be extremely helpful in understanding both the importance of the NSA leak and the government's legal position.

This 25 minutes is very well worth the time:

Link: Edward Snowden and the NSA Leaks: A Debate With Chris Hedges & Law Scholar Geoffrey Stone

You might know Hedges, but Stone is a highly credentialed law professor and he certainly knows is stuff. He is able to define, without defending, the laws that come into play, as well as how civil liberties are involved. No matter what side of the fence you find yourself on, you will learn something here.

One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

    Martin Luther King
Letter from Brimingham Jail
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:40am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/14/cbs-news-confirms-multiple-breaches-of-sharyl-attkissons-computer/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Here's a nice summary, from Amy Goodman, of what Snowden did:

Snowden’s historic leak revealed what he calls an “architecture of oppression”—a series of top-secret surveillance programs that go far beyond what has been publicly known to date. The first was an order from the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court requesting a division of the phone giant Verizon to hand over “all call detail records” for calls from the U.S. to locations abroad, or all calls within the U.S., including local calls. In other words, metadata for every phone call that Verizon Business Network Services processed was to be delivered to the NSA on a daily basis. Another document was a slide presentation revealing a program dubbed “PRISM,” which allegedly empowers NSA snoops access to all the private data stored by Internet giants like Microsoft, AOL, Skype, Google, Apple and Facebook, including email, video chats, photos, files transfers and more.

Snowden released Presidential Policy Directive 20—a top-secret memo from President Barack Obama directing U.S. intelligence agencies to draw up a list of targets for U.S. cyberattacks. Finally came proof of the program called “Boundless Informant,” which creates a global “heat map” detailing the source countries of the 97 billion intercepted electronic records collected by the NSA in the month of March 2013. Among the top targets were Iran, Pakistan, Egypt and Jordan. The leaked map color-codes countries: red for “hot,” then yellow and green. Last March, the U.S. was yellow, providing the NSA with close to 2.9 billion intercepts.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
rSin - well said, but you cannot be the rSin because rSin is consistently
clueless.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Now they are saying this dude is possibly a spy for China.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/annals-of-the-security-state-more-airplane-stories/276018/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Highly doubtful.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

London, 1772.

I have been asked by my superiors to give a brief demonstration of the surprising effectiveness of even the simplest techniques of the new-fangled Social Networke Analysis in the pursuit of those who would seek to undermine the liberty enjoyed by His Majesty’s subjects. This is in connection with the discussion of the role of “metadata” in certain recent events and the assurances of various respectable parties that the government was merely “sifting through this so-called metadata” and that the “information acquired does not include the content of any communications”. I will show how we can use this “metadata” to find key persons involved in terrorist groups operating within the Colonies at the present time. I shall also endeavour to show how these methods work in what might be called a relational manner.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Get the feeling the president has lost his grip on the rudder of government?

Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws without a care would be your first indication he isn't at the helm.

But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
as i was BLASTED just yesterday by many here to "prove" hes been paid or "sold" the intel. OF COURSE HE DID! ;=)

of course you were invited to prove that he sold intell to China

your statement was not a "prediction", it was said as a fact as if it already happened

you could provide no proof, zero

because it was never, ever, reported in any credible press release

you flat made it up


and NOW, just because Dr F decides to pull out of his ass the idea that if COULD be POSSIBLE, you jump on it like that is some kind of PROOF

don't get all excited because somebody agrees with you Ron, a blind squirrel finds an acorn from time to time

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.

And they are directing the ship of state exactly to the reef where he, as a disciple of Cloward and Piven have planed to wreck it from the beginning.

abrams

Sport climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Oh man! Beer almost spilled reading this. Spot on!




Get the feeling the president has lost his grip on the rudder of government?

Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws without a care would be your first indication he isn't at the helm.

But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Benghazi!





oh wait...that really wasn't a scandal.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
Here's what's happened so far as a result of Snowden's leaks:

Link: Leaks are vital
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
nice post k-man

edit:democracy can be ugly
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Petition to: Pardon Edward Snowden

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
http://victorygirlsblog.com/?p=12000

Why has the government kept this unilateral surveillance of USA citizens secret and private?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
I thought you're for freedom, Ron. You want us to have the panopticon, worse than China?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
http://politicker.com/2013/06/janet-napolitano-denies-existence-of-orwellian-state/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Even the most brain dead jihadi (or progressive) would know you can walk into your nearest Wallmart, Riteaid, or CVS and pay for a burner phone with Benjamins.

No problem.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Actually the war between Europe and Asia goes back to about 700 BC or so.

A guy named Herodotus wrote a book about it once.
WBraun

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:31am PT
Except that's how they found Bin Laden


They found nobody.

Stupid Americans ate the bullsh!t again ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
We didn't know until recently that all USA citizens unilaterally have been spied on for several years and the data stored. Why not inform us that the entire USA population is being spied on? Why the secrecy? What does keeping it secret alter?

Because you have misstated it. Americans were not being spied on. The program only served to preserve the records. Nothing else. Nobody looked at anything.

To access the data, you had to have a SECOND court order.

If you came up with a possible phone number, you had to have a THIRD court order to find out who the number belonged to.

If you wanted to tap that phone you needed a FOURTH court order.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:41am PT
They found Bin Laden with a DNA sample from his kids, taken by a doctor that Barry Sorreto is still letting rot in a Pakistani jail.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Because you have misstated it. Americans were not being spied on. The program only served to preserve the records. Nothing else. Nobody looked at anything.

Tell that to Sharyl Attkisson.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Because you have misstated it. Americans were not being spied on. The program only served to preserve the records. Nothing else. Nobody looked at anything.

To access the data, you had to have a SECOND court order.

If you came up with a possible phone number, you had to have a THIRD court order to find out who the number belonged to.

If you wanted to tap that phone you needed a FOURTH court order.

Ken M, its too late to work for the Bush administration.

Americans ARE having all their data recorded.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 01:03am PT
It went down like this Unhinged.

1. They water boarded Zawahhiri until he gave up the name of the courier

2. The courier led them to the compound

3. The doctor's DNA samples confirmed he was in the compound.

The samples you reference were the ones used to do the match.

Care to make a fool of yourself some more?

Why hasn't your prince Barry, Obama, Soretto, Dunham, Obama, not lifted a finger to get the doctor out of a Paki prison?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
At your telco and ISP. Logging happens as your call or email transits, metadata harvesting likely happens either near real-time as streaming data or in relatively short intervals as, with this amount of data, you really can't afford to get behind.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Govt has to scrape all your phone calls and emails because govt forgot to enforce immigration law on 20 expired visas in 2001.


And all that SIGINT hasn't helped a bit with finding 11 million other illegals.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
No one's been trying to find 99.9% of those other overstayed or illegal entrants because most are employed illegally by republican owned/managed companies.

Otherwise we would have matched entrances with exits and harshly penalized illegal employers long, long ago.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
What does it take to qualify for a high level position on Barry's security team.

Meet the new #2 at the CIA

Haines was 24 years old, she dropped out of a graduate program in physics at John Hopkins University and opened a waterfront bookstore in Baltimore. The store “turned into the regular meeting place of a small group of erotica aficionados,” where Haines held a monthly erotica reading.

Haines would set the mood for the readings. For example, in preparation for one session, “she placed red candles throughout her store,” then “got pulses racing” by reading the following:

“In the topmost bed chamber of the house (the prince) found her. He had stepped over sleeping chambermaids and valets, and, breathing the dust and damp of the place, he finally stood in the door of her sanctuary. And approaching her, he gave a soft gasp as he touched her cheek, and her teeth through her parted lips, and then her tender rounded eyelids.”

Haines has taken part in “virtually every senior-level meeting at the president’s National Security Council over the past two years.”

She has never worked in the intelligence agency in which she will soon hold the No. 2 role

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/highest_ranking_woman_nights_after_EdfXR6r5Fa5IcTebsL6qCI
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
"Im not certain what he did or did wrong"

I think it is all part of the checks and balance's of an evolving Democracy.

What would you rather have ,silence?

Edit; Not.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:06pm PT

Guys, I don't know if you know this breaking news BUT:


The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."
If the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney who serves on the House Judiciary committee.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.
[/http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/15/1216500/-NSA-discloses-that-thousands-of-analysts-can-listen-to-domestic-phone-calls]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
What's the 'secret' room that the NSA has built inside various telecom companies? Are calls, emails, et al routed to the NSA's 'secret' operation's room before reaching their intended destination?

Lovegasoline, the Mark Klein documents (AT&T technician) show the use of optical splitters, that essentially "mirror" the data. One side goes off to the intended destination and the other side to the NSA's Naurus boxes. They supposedly don't use Naurus anymore, which filtered data more specifically...... instead they grab everything.

The Mark Klein docs, that Wired released in 2006, are not easy to find online... to my surprise, most have been redacted, even on the EFF site. They are still on the Wayback Machine here, though:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060616033934/http://blog.wired.com/27BStroke6/att_klein_wired.pdf

Might want to download a copy, in case certain pages disappear. This stuff is supposed to be "secret".
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
It was the wonderful "Patriot" Act, hurriedly pushed through congress in the wake of 9/11 that authorized these domestic "activities." Strange thing is.. none of the Senators or House members read ANY of this sh#t. It had been prepared long in advance, and sat waiting for the proper incident that would allow rapid passage.
WBraun

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
none of the Senators or House members read ANY of this sh#t.

I told you all they're stupid Americans.

And you all stupidity voted for these morons all while you were warned ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
If they're currently using optical splitters, then that would imply they streaming whole content, not metadata, to NSA storage and analysis servers and generating their own metadata there (//as opposed to using the telco / ISP metadata//). If they were really persisting that content on NSA storage servers, it would seem odd they'd then have issue warrants for that same content from the likes of At&T, Microsoft, facebook, and google, even as a formality. The odds are better they generate their own medata data and discard the actual content stream after doing so.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Panetta's resume

Leon Edward Panetta (born June 28, 1938) is an American politician, lawyer and professor. He served in the Barack Obama administration as Director of the Central Intelligence Agency from 2009 to 2011 and as Secretary of Defense from 2011 to 2013. An Italian-American Democrat, Panetta was a member of the United States House of Representatives from 1977 to 1993, served as Director of the Office of Management and Budget from 1993 to 1994 and as President Bill Clinton's Chief of Staff from 1994 to 1997. He is the founder of the Panetta Institute for Public Policy, served as Distinguished Scholar to Chancellor Charles B. Reed of the California State University System and professor of public policy at Santa Clara University.


Haines

Haines, 43, instead had a stint as an urban entrepreneur, running Adrian’s Book Café — named for her late mother — for several years between graduating from University of Chicago and moving on to law school at Georgetown. During those years, she served as president of the Fells Point Business Association, according to Baltimore Sun stories at the time, and was active in the neighborhood preservation society.

And then there were the times that Adrian’s welcomed patrons for the occasional readings of high-toned erotica over chicken tostadas,
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
healyje, the last Snowden PPT shows real-time cable taps and PRISM as independent, and that analysts rely on both.

from http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/snowden-powerpoint/#slideid-57990

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Those are two distinct things. The top "UPSTREAM" graphic depicts what we discussed earlier - optical taps on some of the world's main optical fiber trunks. The lower would be access to telcos/ISPs/Social Media Cos metadata .

Taps on the main optical fiber trunks would be attempting to do packet analysis and generate metadata off of it in more or less real time. The NSA didn't and undoubtedly doesn't have the storage capacity to store the content off such trunks beyond some selective and highly-targeted packet streams - it's too much data and really they probably aren't capable of generating real-time metadata against the full trunk capacity either.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 16, 2013 - 01:26am PT
..The NSA didn't and undoubtedly doesn't have the storage capacity to store the content off such trunks beyond some selective and highly-targeted packet streams - it's too much data and really they probably aren't capable of generating real-time metadata against the full trunk capacity either.

healyje, here's an excerpt from Bill Binney, former NSA technical director, on capabilities of the new Utah Data Center, in Bluffdale, opening this September.

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out


AMY GOODMAN: Bill Binney, could you say a little more about Bluffdale, this site in Utah that’s being built right now? I don’t think most people are aware of it.

WILLIAM BINNEY: Well, what they’re putting together there in Bluffdale is a million-square-foot storage facility, of which only 100,000 is really going to have equipment to store data. But the rest of it, the peripherals, then are power generation, cooling and so on. So, but in there, there’s 100,000 square feet of storage capacity. And at current capabilities that are advertised on the web with Cleversafe.com, they can put 10 exabytes in about 200 feet—square feet of storage space in 21 racks. What that means is, when you divide that out, is you—that even at current capacity to store information, that’s five zettabytes that they can put in into Bluffdale. And if you—and my estimate of the data they would be collecting, which would include the targeted audio and perhaps all of the text in the world, that would be on the order of 20 terabytes a minute—or, yeah, 20 terabytes a minute. So if you figure out from that how much they could collect, it would be like 500 years of the world’s communications. But I only estimated a hundred, because really they want space for parallel processors to go at cryptanalysis and breaking codes. So—


more on Bluffdale. Note #6 Domestic Listening Posts.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 16, 2013 - 04:21am PT
kunlun_shan, sorry, I wasn't clear enough, they don't have the sufficient storage capacity local to the fiber optic trunk taps (or wherever an optical splitter would terminate) to capture the content; they probably don't have enough to even buffer sufficiently for packet analysis of the entire trunk in realtime.

And even if Bluffdale is using CleverSafe archive boxes (which they undoubtedly are given their board) with 1-TBS ingest boxes fronting them for say a 5-10 TBS combined facility ingest rate, you'd still have to get raw trunk data to it and that's pretty damn hard to do in the middle of Utah. Maybe if you built a Bluffdale at each of say a dozen submarine cable landing sites you could probably do it given those cables top out around 3.2 TBS last I saw. But you'd also have the issue of how fast you can do deep packet inspection / information extraction. And then there's doing high-level intelligence analysis that could even begin to keep up with a trunk's datastream - unlikely.

But, if the arrows on that chart and the size of the cooling systms on the Bluffdale schematic are to be believed, then Bluffdale looks rather more CPU than storage intensive and I'm guessing it's a high-level intelligence analytics [Hadoop] data center which all the other facilities are going to be forwarding pre-screened/processed data to.

Simultaneously, make massive changes to the Patriot Act to bring it more in line with the Constitution.

You'd need a Supreme Court without Roberts and Alito on it to do that and they were picked as supportive of expansive executive powers and young for a reason.

The people responsible for this spying should be brought to justice and/or impeached.

Well, they're not in office anymore and the ones who are have legal cover provided by the ones who aren't. Then again, John Yoo is at Berkeley and someone should 'get' him for his perverse interpretations of the constitution. But do you then disagree with this assertion of his which I posted a ways back and which likely underpins the 'logic' of the Patriot Act given he's one the principle authors?:

From a Frontline interview with John Yoo on 1/10/2007:

Frontline: And gathering intelligence then means gathering intelligence at home as well as abroad.

Yoo: I think that's right. Again, if you're going to gather intelligence and follow members of Al Qaeda outside the United States, you don't want to make the United States some kind of safe haven where once they cross the borders into our country it actually becomes harder to find them and track them down. That would be perverse; exactly the reverse kind of powers that you want our government to have when it's fighting especially this kind of enemy, which tries to infiltrate our borders and launch surprise attacks.

P.S. The commercial fiber corridor going by Bluffdale probably operates near capacity and that brings up an aspect of all this that doesn't get press as it's more technical in nature. But one can assume the NSA has leased a bunch dark fiber to connect their facilities and has probably embarked on a simultaneous network build out to go along with this as the leased fiber isn't going to cut it from security or capacity perspectives. The only real question is are they piggy-backing on the defense network build out or building their own - I would guess the latter given the defense network will be subject to relentless attacks and have inadequate security at best.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jun 16, 2013 - 05:34am PT
Great to see idiotic mainstream media get bitchslapped by Glenn Greenwald:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BJyp6_4P_6Y
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 16, 2013 - 09:19am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:07am PT
I don't have to listen to your phone calls to know what you're doing. If I know every single phone call you've made, I'm able to determine every single person you talked to - I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive. And the real question here is what do they do with this information that they collect that does not have anything to do with al Qaeda? And we're gonna trust the President and the Vice President of the United States to do the right thing? Don't count me in on that.

-- Joe Biden, May 2006
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:33am PT
Just as we thought, the NSA spies are listening to our phone calls without
warrants. They admitted to it at the closed door congressional oversite meeting.

Can elected Reps or Senators be charged with Holders bogus espionage rap
for leaking this stuff?



NSA spying flap extends to contents of U.S. phone calls

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:55am PT
The dude ditched his pole artist girlfriend and went to China with a Rubik's
Cube and we're supposed to take him seriously? Seriously?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 17, 2013 - 05:48am PT
I would.

Also, I have no doubt an NSA analyst has the capability to tap any phone or go after any text, voicemail, or email - doing so on their own, or a supervisor's authority, without either a valid warrant or an order that is somehow a constitutionally-rooted, legal expression of executive power would be highly problematic.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 11:48am PT
The false allegation that Snowden is a narcissist is baseless. It's a transparent attempt to shift the focus away from the extremely serious and existential issue now facing this nation to killing the messenger. It's a grasping at straws.

Snowden will go down in history as a patriot, more so than some of the criminals who have held the highest offices in the US.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
There's an interesting live chat going on right now between Snowden and journalist Glen Greenwald. Readers can submit questions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower#start-of-comments

"You can also follow along on Twitter using the hashtag #AskSnowden".
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
What we are witnessing is a huge amount of people who are in denial. In denial that our government is composed of criminals who hold the constitution in contempt.


Meh, the Constitution. It is nothing but a piece of paper.
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
the following are quotes from the twitter q + a, kunlun_shan linked up thread. snowden is a one man quotable quotes generator:

"It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people - and the realization that that Congress, specifically the Gang of Eight, wholly supported the lies that compelled me to act. Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."

"Further, it's important to bear in mind I'm being called a traitor by men like former Vice President Dick Cheney. This is a man who gave us the warrantless wiretapping scheme as a kind of atrocity warm-up on the way to deceitfully engineering a conflict that has killed over 4,400 and maimed nearly 32,000 Americans, as well as leaving over 100,000 Iraqis dead. Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American, and the more panicked talk we hear from people like him, Feinstein, and King, the better off we all are. If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney worries about, I would have finished high school."

"There can be no faith in government if our highest offices are excused from scrutiny - they should be setting the example of transparency."

"Initially I was very encouraged. Unfortunately, the mainstream media now seems far more interested in what I said when I was 17 or what my girlfriend looks like rather than, say, the largest program of suspicionless surveillance in human history."

"The US Person / foreigner distinction is not a reasonable substitute for individualized suspicion, and is only applied to improve support for the program. This is the precise reason that NSA provides Congress with a special immunity to its surveillance."

"First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it."

"Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people. And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless."

"More fundamentally, the "US Persons" protection in general is a distraction from the power and danger of this system. Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it's only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%. Our founders did not write that "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all US Persons are created equal.""

"Ask yourself: if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn't I have flown directly into Beijing? I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Snowdon is a courageous man and first and foremost a gift to the world. The whole tragic American spinning comedy is now trying to discredit him.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 17, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now.


He is my hero, through and through.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 17, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 18, 2013 - 02:17am PT
So how do you get into the business of leaking embarrassing government crimes without getting your
door kicked in at 4am and dragged off to Gitmo?

How to Leak made simple. For the Government employee who wants to keep getting a pay check.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-17/whistleblowers-guide-secretly-tipping-press-turnkey-totalitarian-state




Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 18, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 18, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Obama bristles at suggestion he's shifted on snooping
lol

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/17/politics/obama-nsa-interview/?sr=google_news&google_editors_picks=true

(CNN) -- Critics who have compared President Barack Obama's stance on government surveillance to that of hawkish former Vice President Dick Cheney are missing his insistence on proper systematic balances, Obama said in an interview that aired Monday.

Defending at length the recently revealed government programs that gather information about phone calls and Internet usage, Obama said his focus has always been on allowing information to be gathered while ensuring necessary oversight.

"Some people say, 'Well, you know, Obama was this raving liberal before. Now he's, you know, Dick Cheney.'" Obama told PBS' Charlie Rose. "Dick Cheney sometimes says, 'Yeah, you know? He took it all lock, stock, and barrel.' My concern has always been not that we shouldn't do intelligence gathering to prevent terrorism, but rather are we setting up a system of checks and balances?"

Cheney defends NSA, calls Obama's credibility 'nonexistent'








Snowden: Hong Kong easiest answer







Edward Snowden: Hide and seek







Is the NSA leaker a spy?







Apple discloses data request numbers
Obama's administration has faced a litany of questions since the disclosure of government programs that allow the National Security Agency to collect millions of records from U.S. telecommunications firms and Internet companies in the name of preventing terrorism. The source of the information, former CIA employee Edward Snowden, said he was moved to leak the top-secret documents because he felt the government was far overreaching its constitutional bounds in collecting the data.

But Obama argued in the interview on Monday that the system in place includes steps to prevent Americans' rights against unlawful search and seizure from being violated.

"What I can say unequivocally is that if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your e-mails," Obama said.

Snowden claims online Obama expanded 'abusive' security

"On this telephone program, you've got a federal court with independent federal judges overseeing the entire program," the president continued. "And you've got Congress overseeing the program, not just the intelligence committee and not just the judiciary committee, but all of Congress had available to it before the last reauthorization exactly how this program works."

Some members of Congress, including Senate Intelligence Committee members Jay Rockefeller and Susan Collins, have questioned the notion they were given proper briefings on the NSA's program, however, and many lawmakers have said they first learned of the programs when they were revealed in news reports two weeks ago.

CNN poll: Obama numbers plunge into generation gap

**Asked in the interview whether the NSA's process should be more open, Obama said, "It is transparent. That's why we set up the FISA court."

That body, however, operates in secret, and its locations are considered classified. It has approved the vast majority of the requests it has received for warrants, though those orders are also kept secret.**

An administration official said Monday that Obama had asked his intelligence chief James Clapper to determine whether additional information about the data collection programs can be made public, part of what the official described as a "broader effort the president is undertaking to have a dialogue on protecting privacy in the digital age."

The swirling debate is grist for a "national conversation" about privacy and national security, Obama said.

"Not only about these two programs, but also the general problem of data, big data sets, because this is not going to be restricted to government entities," he said.

see the bold stuff....how do you have a "transparent process" when it is classified? thats a new one.

WBraun

climber
Jun 18, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
CNN is the intelligent agencies MSM news front.

It's infiltrated completely by the intelligence agencies on what to report.

Nobody believes anything CNN says except idiots ......
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 18, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
At least we have 100% security. Obama likes listening to my sexy time talk with the wife when I am away on business trips and I am OK with that lol
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 18, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jun 18, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Edward Snowden is a traitor to the United States and should be treated as such.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Edward Snowden is a traitor to the United States and should be treated as such.

Curious as to your opinion on Dick Cheney, W, Rumsfeld, and Libby.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
The dude ditched his pole artist girlfriend and went to China with a Rubik's Cube and we're supposed to take him seriously?

The Rubik's Cube is too funny. Reminds me of the DaVinci Code.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Question:

Given the enormity of what you are facing now in terms of repercussions, can you describe the exact moment when you knew you absolutely were going to do this, no matter the fallout, and what it now feels like to be living in a post-revelation world? Or was it a series of moments that culminated in action? I think it might help other people contemplating becoming whistleblowers if they knew what the ah-ha moment was like. Again, thanks for your courage and heroism.

Snowden's answer:

I imagine everyone's experience is different, but for me, there was no single moment. It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people - and the realization that that Congress, specifically the Gang of Eight, wholly supported the lies that compelled me to act. Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Questions:

1) Why did you choose Hong Kong to go to and then tell them about US hacking on their research facilities and universities?
2) How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

Snowden's answer:

1) First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it.

Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people. And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless.

2) All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 19, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Worth repeating, especially in the face of those who are saying Snowden is a traitor:


Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy.
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Jun 19, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Where Uncle Sam Ought to Be Snooping

Let’s place private corporations with government contracts under surveillance — to make sure no one is getting rich off our tax dollars.

By Sam Pizzigati

Only 23 percent of Americans, says a new Reuters poll, consider former National Security Agency employee Edward Snowden a “traitor” for blowing the whistle on the federal government’s massive surveillance of the nation’s telecom system.

Booz Allen: leveraging the public purse for private gain.

Many Americans, the poll data suggest, clearly do find the idea of government agents snooping through their phone calls and emails a good bit unnerving.

But Americans have more on the surveillance front to worry about than overzealous government agents. Government personnel aren’t actually doing the snooping the 29-year-old Snowden revealed. NSA officials have contracted this snooping out — to private corporate contractors.

These surveillance contracts, in turn, are making contractor executives exceedingly rich. And none have profited personally more than the power suits who run Booz Allen Hamilton and the private equity Carlyle Group.

Whistle-blower Snowden did his snooping as a Booz Allen employee. Booz Allen, overall, has had tens of thousands of employees doing intelligence work for the federal government.

Booz Allen alumni also populate the highest echelons of America’s intelligence apparatus — and vice versa. The Obama administration’s top intelligence official, James Clapper, just happens to be a former Booz Allen exec. The George W. Bush intelligence chief, John McConnell, now serves as the Booz Allen vice chair.

All these revolving doors open up into enormously lucrative worlds. In their 2010 fiscal year, the top five Booz Allen execs together pocketed just under $20 million. They averaged 23 times what members of Congress take home.

In fiscal 2010, the top five Booz Allen execs took home just under $20 million.

But the real windfalls are flowing to top execs at the Carlyle Group, Booz Allen’s parent company since 2008. In 2011, Carlyle’s top three power suits shared a combined payday over $400 million.

More windfalls will be arriving soon. Carlyle paid $2.54 billion to buy up Booz Allen. Analysts are now expecting that Carlyle’s ultimate return on the acquisition will triple the private equity giant’s initial cash outlay.

What do all these mega millions have to do with the massive surveillance that Edward Snowden has so dramatically exposed? Washington power players, from the President on down, are insisting that this surveillance has one and only one purpose: keeping Americans safe from terrorism.

But who can put much faith in these earnest assurances when other motives — financial motives — so clearly seem at play?

Corporate execs at firms like Booz Allen and the Carlyle Group are making fortunes doing “systematic snooping” for the government. These execs have a vested self-interest in pumping up demand for their snooping services — and they’re indeed, the Washington Post reported last week, pumping away.

This past April, the Post notes, Booz Allen established a new 1,500-employee division “aimed at creating new products that clients (read: government agencies) don’t know they need yet.” This new division is developing “social media analytics” that can anticipate the latest “cyber threat.”

Private contractors like Booz Allen have a vested self-interest in pumping up demand for their snooping services.

In other words, this new unit will be figuring out how to get the federal government to pay up even more for investigating who we “like” on Facebook.

In one sense, none of this should surprise us. Corporate executives — particularly in the defense industry — have been enriching themselves off government contracts for years. Post-9/11 political dynamics have only turbocharged that process. America now sports, as Pulitzer Prize-winning analyst David Rohde observed last week, a “secrecy industrial complex.”

Do the Snowden revelations have the potential to upset Corporate America’s long-running government contracting gravy train? Maybe, but only if anger over the revelations translates into real changes that keep private corporate contractors from getting rich off tax dollars.

What might these changes entail? The Affordable Care Act enacted in 2010 — Obamacare — suggests one initial step. Under this new legislation, private health insurance companies can no longer deduct off their corporate income taxes any compensation over $500,000 that they pay their top executives.

A more potent antidote to contracting windfalls would be simply denying government contracts to corporations that overcompensate their top execs, a course of action U.S. senator Hugo Black from Alabama, later a noted Supreme Court justice, proposed back in the early years of the Great Depression.

How might this approach work today? The President of the United States makes about 25 times the compensation of the lowest-paid federal employee. We could apply that standard to federal contracting and deny our tax dollars to companies that pay their top execs over 25 times what any of their workers are making.

Protecting privacy in a dangerous world will never be easy. But we’ll never have even a shot at protecting privacy until we take the profit out of violating it. Ending windfalls for contractors would be the logical place to start.


http://toomuchonline.org/where-uncle-sam-ought-to-be-snooping/
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
If we could have a national sales tax and do away with the IRS, and force all of its employees into finding private sector jobs, I am willing to put up with the NSA snooping on my e-mails.

If I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that snooping on everyone's e-mails and phone calls would prevent a single innocent person from dying in a terrorist attack, then I would be all right with it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Slightly OT, but has anybody seen the shitstorm that Democracy Now is breaking on Flight 800?
Yeowza!


... Obama added: "If people can't trust the executive branch, but also don't trust Congress and don't trust federal judges ... then we're going to have some problems here."

Gosh sir, We the People have now learned that all three branches of government have furtively conspired for seven years to violate our privacy — so, no, we don't trust any of them. And, yes, that is a biiiiiiig problem.

© 2013 Jim Hightower
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 20, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
has anybody seen the shitstorm that Democracy Now is breaking on Flight 800?


Broke on some of the ex military oriented and conservative blogs over the weekend.

It seems some of the retirees are now out from under the thumb and talking.

This broke over night too.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100222652/wikileaks-says-michael-hastings-contacted-it-just-before-his-death-are-they-implying-he-was-murdered/
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 20, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
American reporter feeling big brothers eye watching

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/06/19/living-in-fear-welcome-to-fascist-america/?singlepage=true

It’s a fear. You don’t really cower under the desk.
But its a nagging fear, a trepidation.
Something that never goes away. Obama is watching you, monitoring
whatever you do.

If you make a mistake, you will pay for it. Eventually. Some day.
Your future is bleak.

Basically, you are being silenced. Everyone is. Purposefully or not, they are trying to shut you down and shut you up.

They say they’re not, but they are.
They say they don’t believe they are, but they are.
They have protective password mechanisms in place, but who has access? Someday your enemies will.

We have to rely on the beneficence of our overseers, but only a fool should rest easy.
How can we believe in anything? Everything is too big. We are just cogs in
the big wheel of the surveillence state.

And here’s the big problem: it’s only getting worse as every little
detail is being recorded into the searchable database.

So live in fear. There is a Bad Santa watching you. And he decides if
you've been bad or good.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 20, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 20, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 21, 2013 - 02:20am PT
The secret rules that allow NSA to use US data without a warrant

"The Fisa court's oversight role has been referenced many times by Barack Obama and senior intelligence officials as they have sought to reassure the public about surveillance, but the procedures approved by the court have never before been publicly disclosed.

The top secret documents published today detail the circumstances in which data collected on US persons under the foreign intelligence authority must be destroyed, extensive steps analysts must take to try to check targets are outside the US, and reveals how US call records are used to help remove US citizens and residents from data collection.

However, alongside those provisions, the Fisa court-approved policies allow the NSA to:

• Keep data that could potentially contain details of US persons for up to five years;

• Retain and make use of "inadvertently acquired" domestic communications if they contain usable intelligence, information on criminal activity, threat of harm to people or property, are encrypted, or are believed to contain any information relevant to cybersecurity;

• Preserve "foreign intelligence information" contained within attorney-client communications;

• Access the content of communications gathered from "U.S. based machine[s]" or phone numbers in order to establish if targets are located in the US, for the purposes of ceasing further surveillance.

The broad scope of the court orders, and the nature of the procedures set out in the documents, appear to clash with assurances from President Obama and senior intelligence officials that the NSA could not access Americans' call or email information without warrants."

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:10am PT
And Use of Tor and e-mail crypto could increase chances that NSA keeps your data/ this is why everyone should use GPG or similar to encrypt their email. At least make them pay (computer time) for accessing email communication.

My key is here: http://pangram.org/steve/pubkey.txt

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 21, 2013 - 11:10am PT
"Asked about US surveillance programmes in an earlier interview with a Spanish technology news site, FayerWayer, Steve Wozniak said: "All these things about the constitution, that made us so good as people – they are kind of nothing.

"They are all dissolved with the Patriot Act. There are all these laws that just say 'we can secretly call anything terrorism and do anything we want, without the rights of courts to get in and say you are doing wrong things'. There's not even a free open court any more. Read the constitution. I don't know how this stuff happened. It's so clear what the constitution says."

He said he had been brought up to believe that "communist Russia was so bad because they followed their people, they snooped on them, they arrested them, they put them in secret prisons, they disappeared them – these kinds of things were part of Russia. We are getting more and more like that.""
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 21, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Just replace "national interest" with "regime interests" for most of the story and it reads correctly.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html#.UcRqZMjn-70

Why do the FDA, Dept. of Agriculture NOAA and the Peace Corps have to do with legitimate national security interests?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 21, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy.

Not just lying to the public but lying to Congress, which is supposed to oversee them! Why doesn't he go to jail instead? How would we know he was lying without a whistleblower. Kill the messenger? Screw that~! Even Clinton got impeached for lying to congress about a MUCH smaller issue

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/fri-june-14-2013-

Funny, and shows the dude lying to congress

Peace

karl
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
Insider Threat Program June 2013

whats this?
President 'Leak Plugger's unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider
Threat Program gives the NSA authority to increase monitoring of all
communications to hunt down leakers.


"Hammer this fact home . . . leaking is tantamount to aiding the enemies
of the United States,” says a June 1, 2012, Defense Department
oberfurher on strategy for the program.


Requires federal employees to snitch on co-workers. Failure to do so is
now a crime and if the cubical worker across the aisle from you leaks to
the media you could go to jail for not catching him and alerting the
department manager.

So best not to talk to anyone in the office so you have plausible
deniability of not knowing anything, just like the administration.


You have stepped thru the looking glass when it makes perfect sense to get
jail time for not being a mind reader. What school teaches that course btw? Got to sign up.



Hey, let’s get people to snitch on their coworkers.

The only thing they haven’t done here is reward it,” said Kel McClanahan,
a Washington lawyer who specializes in national security law.

I’m waiting for the time when you turn in your manager and
get a $500 reward and take over his job with a higher salary.
Sweet!


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 12:01am PT
Pardon Edward Snowden | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:00am PT
Signed.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:19am PT
Signed it too. Think it will make a difference if millions sign it?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:09am PT
"British spy agency collects and stores vast quantities of global email messages, Facebook posts, internet histories and calls, and shares them with NSA, latest documents from Edward Snowden reveal"

"The Americans were given guidelines for its use, but were told in legal briefings by GCHQ lawyers: "We have a light oversight regime compared with the US".

When it came to judging the necessity and proportionality of what they were allowed to look for, would-be American users were told it was "your call".

The Guardian understands that a total of 850,000 (?) NSA employees and US private contractors with top secret clearance had access to GCHQ databases.

The documents reveal that by last year GCHQ was handling 600m "telephone events" each day, had tapped more than 200 fibre-optic cables and was able to process data from at least 46 of them at a time."


The article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
in case there is any doubt about obama's "evolution." this is from 2007:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

obama now equates secret courts making sweeping decisions affecting millions of americans with "transparency." and that's only to focus on what has been confirmed.

i apologize, in advance, for the following rant directed at the american citizen who assumes, without trial, what their gov't tells them: that snowden is a "traitor." my problem is, i have found the u.s. to be such an incredible and inspirational country with regard to much of its history, its land and its people, that it's hard to not have a fair bit of vitriol when it comes to commenting on the path american leaders have led the american public down post 9/11.

<rant>

i read a der spiegel editorialist who made the following obvious but important point within this context: "The US is, for the time being, the only global power -- and as such it is the only truly sovereign state in existence. All others are dependent -- either as enemies or allies."

if you believe that the head of the current u.s. corporatocracy is concerned about this leak because its spying capabilities were exposed to either china, or europe, or even "al queda" you are being played for a fool.

we now have confirmation that the nsa is working hand in hand with the u.k.'s gchq, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are a lot of other western powers on the same list of cooperating intelligence gatherers [including canada's].

if you don't think the chinese elite knew about what the nsa was capable of, again, wake the f*#k up. china had what was thought to be the largest and most sophisticated state wide censorship and spying infrastructure on the planet. the only reason i put that in the past tense, is because it turns out the u.s. is giving them a real run for their money for the title of "largest and most sophisticated."

and i guarantee osama, et al weren't going to the trouble of using memory keys and runners, because they underestimated the capabilities of the u.s. military/intelligence complex.

no, the primary reason obama, et al are going and will go after snowden with every tool in their toolbox [smear campaigns, legal and possibly even extra legal methods] is that he exposed this to the american public.

because, at this point, the ONLY viable threat to the ruling power structure of the world's sole superpower, is you: the american public.

and while i hate to channel my inner palin, if you think that the bush/obama "led" empire's primary concern is main street, just look at who got bailed out and is already prospering, and who didn't and is still paying for the most recent crisis.

if the american public shoots the messenger and allows snowden to go down, you will prove deserving of everything that is being done to you and will continue to be done to you.

and if the above doesn't make any sense to you, it's okay, just repeat after me:

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."

</rant>
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
NWO: Wow! healyje signed a petition to have Snowden pardoned? Is this correct?

You really don't follow along very well...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
There's a BIG facility just completed in Colorado who's sole purpose is to capture EVERY electronic communication in the nation.

All phone calls, Emails, IMs, Videos, Skype, data transfers,

and archive them for at least four years.


Are you really ok with that?

Only an out and out Fascist, Communist or some other form of totalitarian would be.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
This facility was built completely under King Barry's reign.

He didn't stop it did he?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Dr. F - http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/ in Bluffdale, UT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 23, 2013 - 01:35am PT
TGT: This facility was built completely under King Barry's reign. He didn't stop it did he?

This is a BushCo facility and Obama had no power to stop its construction other than not signing intelligence appropriation bills. We've been over all this ground already.

NWO: Why do you hate America, Joe? North Korea will gladly take you in.

Dude, you have such a weak grasp on what America, Communism, and Fascism 'are' that you probably shouldn't get in over your head with North Korea. I will say, however, I'm beginning to detect a few similarities between you and Kim Jong-un (other than the fact Jong-un is clearly better educated).
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:36am PT
So do you support the security state and the collection of a dossier of every American's digital life?

A simple yes or no will do.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 23, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Snowden is apparently in Mother Russia now...

Of course--where all true blue American patriots and whistle blowers go.

Curt
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Riley

Look into the mirror and breath calmly...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
jghedge

Stop the ridiculous black-white spinning...
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Folks really do not have any idea what it takes to keep them safe.

Only stupid Americans create an unsafe situation in the first place and then make stupid laws and rules to fix the same unsafe situations they simultaneously continually keep going.

Then the stupid Americans preach to the whole world how they are trying to keep everyone safe.

All while building an unsafe world.

Americans are the stupidest people on the planet ......



Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Edward Snowden seeks asylum in Ecuador amid diplomatic storm: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-escape-moscow-ecuador
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
"The fall-out from Snowden's leaks continued to stir the surveillance debate in the UK, with Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, insisting David Cameron or the foreign secretary, William Hague, should address MPs.

On Friday, the Guardian revealed GCHQ has put taps on some of the cables that carry internet traffic in and out of the UK, and has developed a storage system - codenamed Tempora - that can keep the information for up to 30 days.

The programme, which has not been disclosed before, allows GCHQ to keep a vast amount of emails and telephone calls for analysis.

Chakrabarti said: "The authorities appear to be kidding themselves with a very generous interpretation of the law that cannot stand with article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

"Revelations of blanket surveillance of the British public on such a scale amount to a huge scandal even by the standards of recent years. At the very least, the prime minister or foreign secretary should appear before the House of Commons immediately to explain how this was justified without clear legal authority or parliamentary debate.""
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
So Snowden is going to Ecuador.

via Cuba.

Wouldn't it be a dramatic thing, if Cuba placed him under arrest, and returned him to the US?

The possibility of a tremendous opening of the gate to Cuba, and the resultant ending of their isolation.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 23, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
A letter from a Phd. freind of mine below. It seems relevant to this conservation.

Hi Rick:

Yes, indeed, "hope for the best and prepare for the worst" is sage advise. Am i crazy because of my heart condition affecting not only my physical well being, but also my mind, my perception of reality, my sense of well being?Or does it seem to you that everything is falling apart from the center and core of existence? How can we be hopeful when our convictions and beliefs are constantly attacked by very evil forces;when government and corporate policies destroy us in real time, 24/7, 365 days each year? How can we prepare for that which we do not understand nor have control over? What can we do to preserve the essence of our convictions, beliefs, and values when the powers that govern our lives force us into isolation with an impending sense of helplessness, anger, joylessness, and despair?

Yes, indeed, DOOM does describe the times we are passing through. DOOM is fashionable and trendy. The perception of impending DOOM is real! My children express it. My casual acquaintances admit to uncontrollable fear, apprehension, and a generalized non-specified terror. My friends feel we are on the path of species specific annihlation. Doom is in the air. It is a dread that keeps a man in bed instead of embracing the opportunities and potential joy of the new day. It is the reason why two thirds of our countrymen are doped up on anti-depressants. It is why Hollywood is dosing us up on movies that deal with apocalyptic themes, end of the world fears, and, well zombies. Perhaps the zombie craze describes the 21st century man. He shuffles through modern times feeling this unspecified rage, ready to bite and kill those remaining souls left alive. They have no real appetite for nourishment or sustenance; just the essential raging urge to chew, chomp, munch, crunch, tear at, snap at, and in short, pass on the soul killing disease.

I agree that what causes this feeling in the general populace is difficult to understand. I think we need to discover who actually controls the levers of power; not the junk yard illusion and myth of democracy, but real power! Follow the money. Men who are not afraid to lose their lives cannot be forced to accept the unacceptable. The fearful masses may be programmed through the media to accept the daily erosion of their constitutional and legal rights in exchange for the incorrect perception of safety and well being. Perhaps modern serfdom is acceptable to these terrified hordes. Perhaps they confuse the perception of the common man's authentic welfare with the acquisition of material possesions and positive cash flow? Perhaps they fear for the day when their material shelter, retirement and savings, health care, and security are stripped away from them by their owners, those that control the real power. The government does everything it can to keep its citizens in a state of perpetual terror, as they mindlessly shuffle through the DHS requirements and rituals.

A zombie cannot communicate. It can only absorb stimuli and react with violent dependability. A zombie has attained genuine enlightenment in the information technology age,i.e., all "informative" material originates from the same source, from those that exercise true POWER.

George Bush Sr. did help to transform the USA into the USZ. He was the czar of the CIA and a good family freind of the Saudi royalty. He was the founding father of the New World Order.He was an inspirational Zionist at the same time. He knew how to exercise power. He set the path for Clinton, his son, and the current occupant of the White House. He was a genius. Bush Senior led us to the creation of international sustainable development of zombie culture. Yes, Brazil hosted the UNCED in '92 just as Pappy left office and infected the first victim with the Z plague and then gave us the means of sustainable implementation on a world wide scale. What an exemplary and shining example of the contemporary Power Broker! Look for Pelosi, Reed, and Kerry to get Agenda 21 into treaty form, and then look to Obama to figure out how to eliminate Amendment VI of our constitution, so that 21 becomes the law of the land in the USZ. The important point here is that there is no difference between the democrat and republican parties anymore. Global government is the ultimate goal (or is it ghoul) of these power brokers of A.D. 2013.

I still do my best to get prepared and retain hope; yet i fear it is about to get much much worse and that it will take at least be a 1000 years before all the Z's are forced out of existence. Western civilization as we have known it during our lives is about to get clobbered just as the Romans did 1500 years ago. I don't think science will find a vaccine in time. I hope that a handful of warrior monks can keep the fire lit for the next ten centuries of survival.

Who needs a thousand points of light anyway?

Mournfully yours, Dr. SCAR
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
...this is just a government trying to prevent a serious and inevitable terrorist attack by trying to preserve trillions of conversations so if something does pop up they might be able to go back and connect the dots before they blow up our pretty little lives again...

I don't agree at all, Riley. As I wrote to you previously, I think NSA data collection has been hijacked for profit by huge defense companies. William Binney, "Technical Leader for Intelligence" for the NSA , when he retired in 2001, was very upset. This is a guy who was with the NSA for 36 years and had the equivalent rank of a general.

He complained that relatively low cost, focused systems he'd developed, were being passed over for bemoths that gather everything. Binney says if the NSA can focus on 2 depths of separation they will find terrorists. Gathering every bit of data is way more than what is needed.

The excerpt below makes a very good point that all kinds of people can be blackmailed with the level of data being collected. I'm not saying that's necessarily happening, but why would any "democracy" set themselves up like that?

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out



AMY GOODMAN: And talk about that for a moment, Bill, the former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio, the only head of a communications company to—the only head of a company to demand a court order or approval under FISA.

WILLIAM BINNEY: Yes, and the consequence for him was they targeted him, and now he’s in prison. So, I mean, they succeeded in prosecuting him. But what it told me was that the intent from the beginning was to do domestic spying, accumulating information and knowledge about the U.S.—the entire U.S. population. So I thought of that as a J. Edgar Hoover on super steroids, you know? It wasn’t that he had information and knowledge to leverage just the Congress. You have information and knowledge to leverage everyone, judges included, in the country. So, that’s why I got so concerned. I tried to work internally in the government to get people to do something about it, but that whole process failed. So what it did was it alerted them to what I was doing, and they targeted me with the FBI, and they attempted to falsely prosecute me. Fortunately, I was able to get evidence of malicious prosecution every time, so they finally backed off trying to prosecute me.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Let us know when that actually starts happening

Well, Joe, we are never gonna know. Unless someone like Snowden takes the risk and proves it to us.
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Short sampling "This is only one of several lists."


NUMBER SCIENTISTS AGE CIRCUMSTANCE DATE

#1 Jose Trias Murdered May 19, 1994
#2 Dr. Tsunao Saitoh 46 Murdered May 7, 1996
#3-7 Microbiologists Plane crash October 4, 2001
#8 Jeffrey Paris Wall 41 Murdered? November 6, 2001
#9 Dr.Vladimir Pasechnik 64 Stroke November 21, 2001
#10-12 Dr.Yaakov Matzner, Amiramp Eldor, & Avishai Berkman 54, 59,50 Plane crash November 24, 2001
#13 Roman Kuzmin 24 Struck by a car December 2001
#14 Dr. Benito Que 52 Mugging December 6, 2001
#15 Dr. David Schwartz 57 Murdered December 10, 2001
#16 Set Van Nguyen 44 Found in airlock chamber December 14, 2001
#17 Don C. Wiley 57 Body found by river December 20,2001
#18 Ivan Glebov Bandit attack January 2002
#19 Alexi Brushlinski Killed/murdered? January 2002
#20 Victor Korshunov 56 Murdered February 9, 2002
#21 Dr. Ian Langford 40 Murdered February 11, 2002
#22-23 Tanya Holzmayer & Guyang “Mathew” Huang 46, 38 Murder then suicide February 28, 2002
#24 David Wynn-Williams 55 Struck by vehicle March 24, 2002
#25 Dr. Steven Mostow 63 Plane crash March 25, 2002
#26 Dr. Leland Rickman 47 Unknown June 24, 2003
#27 Dr. David Kelly 59 Suicide?/ Murder July 18, 2003
#28 Michael Perich 46 Car wreck October 11, 2003
#29 Robert Leslie Burghoff 45 Hit and run November 20, 2003
#30 Dr Robert E. Shope 74 Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis January 19, 2004
#31 Michael Patrick Kiley 62 Heart failure January 24, 2004
#32 Vadake Srinivasan 78 Stroke/Car wreck March 13, 2004
#33 William T. McGuire 39 Murdered May 5, 2004
#34 Dr. Eugene F. Mallove 56 Murdered May 16, 2004
#35 Antonina Presnyakova 46 Accidental/Ebola May 19, 2004
#36 Thomas gold 84 Heart disease June 23, 2004
#37 Dr. Assefa Tulu 45 Hemorrhagic stroke June 24, 2004
#38 Dr. John Mullen 67 Acute arsenic intoxication June 29, 2004
#39 Dr Paul Norman 52 Plane crash July 2, 2004
#40 Dr. John Badwey 54 Pneumonia like symptoms July 21, 2004
#41 Dr Bassem al-Mudare Murdered July 21, 2004
#42 Professor John Clark 52 Hanging August 12, 2004
#43 Mohammed Toki Hussein al-Talakani 40 Murdered September 5, 2004
#44 Matthew Allison 32 Car exploded October 13, 2004
#45 John R. La Montagne, Ph.D 61 Sudden pulmonary embolism November 2, 2004
#46 Taleb Ibrahim al-Daher Murdered December 21, 2004
#47-48 Tom Throne & Beth Williams 63, 53 Car wreck December 29, 2004
#49 Jeong H. Im 72 Murdered January 7, 2005
#50 Geetha Angara 43 Murdered/Drowned February 8, 2005
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Land of the slave home of the pussy.

A man puts his life in jeopardy. Risks decades of political imprisonment in order to inform the citizens of his nation about what is being done by it's government.

Yet so many brainwashed idiots are concerned that he broke an unjust law?

America has gotten what it deserves.

I am truly conservative in that I believe that generally people get what they deserve. Not always but generally true.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
Logic

Unjust law allows certain action.. one follows the law and commits unjust actions.

Someone speaks up against unjust law. Informing folks of what is being done under it.(although only idiots hadn't already guessed it was happening)

He is then charged with breaking espionage laws.

Who is wrong? The law or the man pointing it out?

We love to critique other nations who have unjust laws. Yet we act just like the chinese who support their government when it is wrong.

America has Political prisoners and is trying to make this man one of them.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Espionage violation?

Who was he spying for exactly?

The American people? Terrible criminal eh?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
What is an unjust law?

Oh for example. Placing folks in Jail for Marijuana infractions.

A law that tried to suspend the Writ of Habeus Corpus and for which that part was struck down.

A law that allows the indefinate detention without legal representaion of anyone that the government chooses by simnple stating at a high enough evel that the one detained is " An enemy Combatant"

A law that allows the government to stockpile for later use every interceptable communication by it's own citizens.

A law that says you can have only one child.

A law that says Saddam Hussain can detain you if he chooses to.

A law requireing that Jews may be rounded up and slaughtered.

A law that requires Japanese descendents to be rounded up in concentration camps and their property confiscated.


climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
jhedge stop being an idiot and asking dumb questions when my point is crystal clear.

Never forgotten. A place I happenned on by chance and brought me to open weeping not long ago.

Abuses continue..

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
I honestly have no idea what the unjust law is that you think has been broken.

Doink! /Facepalm One cannot break an unjust law except by following it.

Dude he has been charged with the felony of breaking something to do with the espionage act.

You look it up if you want to know. To me it is immaterial as regards actual justice in this situation.

I'm sure it was considered a felony to be part of the resistance against the Axis in WWII also. Or to be a signature of the declaration of independence.

Whatever

Not even worthy of a trial of any sort.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
Yes one breaks the law by following an unjust law.

The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right.

Simple concepts here.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:01am PT
The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right.

+10
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:05am PT
So he is being charged as a SPY.

What adversary was he spying for?

He was spying for the American people.

Why does the Government of the American people consider the American People the adversary?

WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Why does the Government of the American people consider the American People the adversary?

Because they are the crooks!

The crooks are always suspicious.

Like minds.

Crooks don't want to get caught.

So they spy on you to see how much you know so they can't get caught in their nefarious activities.

Most all the worlds top echelon of leaders are crooks these days ......
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:11am PT
"The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right."


Uhh, no. The law itself isn't unjust - you're saying that applying it to this situation is.

I could just as easily claim that bank robbery is right, if the stolen funds are used in a manner I agree with.


And I'd be just as wrong as you are.


Nah you'd just be a better writer.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:15am PT
Trust? you kiddin me. I figured out Obama when he voted for telcom immunity as a Senator.

Basics are this jhedge.

Snowden was right to do what he did.

If our government wanted to do something good they would be looking for him to give him a medal.. not to arrest him.

That clear enough logic for you?
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:26am PT
If our government wanted to do something good they would be looking for him to give him a medal

No they wouldn't.

He ratted them out.

Crooks will kill you for that.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Suicide is spending all this money pursuing Snowden instead of providing medical care for those who need it.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:36am PT
http://www.zdnet.com/anger-mounts-after-facebooks-shadow-profiles-leak-in-bug-7000017167/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42am PT
jhedge wow

Logic

man does good

government should write laws that do not prosecute someone who does good

Government should not prosecute man who does good

Better yet?

SO far you have tried to skirt all over the place..

but this is the basics of my premise..

Snowden did good.

DO you dispute that?
-------------------------


Plwase show me what rights were violated

I would switch sides on this in a heartbeat if any individual came forward who could show anything even faintly resembling slavery, suffragism, voter disenfranchisement etc as a result of NSA data mining

Till then, it's all just hysterical nonsense

Oh RLY?
Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?

Talk about a lack of logic and an irrational conclusion...

LOGIC

You now ask for another Snowden to step up and break the law in order to give you evidence that the government used this datamining inappropriately?

How bout this.. The information exists and is accessible. The government is made of over 1 million human beings. Some of whom are not god people and some of those have accsess to that information.

Odds simpl suggest that this information is abusable available and there is motive to do wrong with it.

Odds are low that it has not been abused.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:52am PT
Exactly Ron. As you might have noticed I supported you on your rants against those laws. Can't say we always agree or should always but you are right about those laws. I rarely get involved in political BS but here i am tonight.. lol

Anyone with a brain knew this was happening because the law clearly made it possible.

Anyone with a brain also knows that the datamining information has been used to harm people.

What can be done will be done. Especially when it's easy to do and lots of people have the opportunity.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:57am PT
Incumbents don't matter much. Not when a new crop of bought and paid for candidates is always available.

Remember it is IMPOSSIBLE to become a federal elected representative without over a Million dollars in campaign donations. That's just the House. About a magnitude more for Senate and almost a couple more Magnitudes for President.

Unless we change that with a constitutional amendment government Of the People For the People and By the People continues to be DEAD.
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:02am PT
By the way

The flight 800 investigators just admited they lied about the plane crash.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:09am PT
How would they know they had their rights infringed by use of a top secret information gathering system? You think that such information couldn't be used to do damage to someone in conjunction with other actions such that the person harmed could not recognize the involvement of the secret part of the harmdoing?

Are you saying that you find it unlikely that such a program has not and will not be used to harm people who do not deserve it?

Like I said you'd need another Snowden to prove it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well. You chose blackmail but I'd have picked other examples.. regardless the concept is valid.

I know you are coming from a default position of trust and hope and knowing a lot of good people.

Try coming from a viewpoint of a person who has been conned by those he trusted, consider that there are people trained proffessionally to be conmen and to work as double agents and to lie in order to convict people.

As far as folks trained to lie in order to imprison human beings. This includes every current Police officer. Let alone the much more thorough training that federal law enforcement receives.

Consider the above facts well

Now use your imagination



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:34am PT
You skipped the part where I answered your question with your own scenario.

Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well.

I could have said Imagine the sun rising tomorrow because it is that simple to come up with a plausible scenario such as you asked for.. but that would have been rude.

I really am not trying to argue for arguments sake.

I get what you are saying I think. You seem beleive the datamining is being used in an appropriate manner in order to protect us as an additional tool used onle when other information leads us to need that saved datamine info.

I am simply suggesting that the info is easily abused and if so probably has been abused. Not only that but the type of abuse it makes possible is staggeringly bad.

I am furthermore suggesting that what Snowden did in making the people of the US aware of this system was a great service and as such I find him a hero not in any way a criminal.

I don't trust the government to always do what is right with it's power. I do at this time expect that it will do more right than wrong with it.

I am of the opinion that I have more to fear from my governments use of this information than I have to gain from it. Because what they do right with it has little actual pertinance to any risks I face. Whereas what are likely to do wrong with it while it also has very little risk to me is still much higher than the terrorst one to me. Matter of numbers basically. I have way more possible contact with government forces than from terrorists.

We probably disagree.

so be it.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Ok I failed to communicate well. Perhaps I'm not even thinking well. I thought I'd done better. Actually I still think I made some pretty good points.

Someday perhaps I will master the power of thought and communication required to win an argument with a troll on the internet.

Sorry.. seriously.. I wish I'd done better.

And thanks for getting me motivated to think a bit more on this subject.

Gnight man.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08am PT
Dude nobody would attack Los Angeles with a Nuke. Pointless

It would hardly put a dent in it. Disrupt it sure but you could do that with plain old explosives on I5.

Wasted Nuke. Much better places to use one.

Other than nukes you are worrying way too much about Terrorists. And in LA you are definitely worrying too much about it.

Someday terrorists will get a nuke and blow up Washingto DC or NY. Inevitable. It will happen with or without this data mining. Well unless there is no point by then to attack America.

Could be China will be the worlds big target by then. Hope so. We could learn alot from Canada's ability to thrive by not being numero uno on the world stage.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?


You are not.

You are not supposed to be making judgements about top secret programs that are used to track terrorists, which if revealed, makes it easier for terrorists to operate.

You are supposed to vote, and elect people you trust to, under the penalty of law, evaluate what is being done, and whether, in their expert opinions, it is legal and valid.

They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.

There is only one person who is alleged to have tapped information they should not have been looking at----and that is Snowden, who disclosed that he was searching through secret documentation that he was not cleared to read, which he knew, then copied and disclosed this information publically.

Sounds like spying to me.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:20am PT
Except I don't trust our "elected" officials.

I'd love to actually even be able to have a democratic election in America.

But that isn't possible anymore.

Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations.

The US government has lost it's credibility unfortunately. But that is a fact of it's own doing.

Last time I used your way of thinking KenM we failed to vote out let alone impeach the idiots we had trusted to make such decisions. I have not Forgotten the lessons of Irag War II
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:21am PT
They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.

Hahahaha
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:36am PT
No not hardly. I love the idea of America. The America I pledged allegiance too. I dream of a nation as described by Our founders and by Lincoln. I hate what it is being perverted into.

As regards my opinion about the Nuking of DC or NY? I hate it but I believe it will occur. Same way my reaction to 9-11 was instantly.. "goddammit they finally did it."

First words out of my mouth after turning on the TV and seeing only one tower standing.

I am a believer in the idea that one person or a small group of highly motivated people are unstoppable.

I suggest removing the motivation as your best defense.

You need to stop listening to Limbaugh buddy. You might not get your filters so twisted that you could imagine let alone think or type that I hate America.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:40am PT

"Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations."


Except both the current governor of CA, and the guy I worked for who ousted Mary Bono Mack, were outspent by huge amounts.

Your ignorance is sickening. Leave.

They were not outspent as much as the people who did not get donations were.

you jumped to the conclusion that I meant money perfectly guarantees who wins. It doesn't and that is not what I said or even meant to imply.

But it does perfectly guarantee who gets to play. And that is what matters. Not the D or the R. Doesn't matter who wins of the well financed ..all of them were picked as acceptable to the real constituency of the US government long before we the people get to vote.


It allows folks like you to think the system is not corrupt to it's bone.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:57am PT
Corrupted by the need for campaign donations in order to play. No matter how much good they wish to do they are hampered by the need to get donations for themselves or for their party. Even if they wish to ignore it their less resilient colleagues will be constantly reminding them of it.

This creates lines they will not or even if willing simply cannot cross. Lines not first and foremost determined by what is best for The People.

It's a built in defacto foundational conflict of interest.

I think we both need some sleep. You have an early morning . Sorry if I kept you up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:50am PT
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014. Take this gem for example from April:

Congressman Tom Cotton took to the House floor “to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs”:

“I rise today to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs. Counterterrorism is often shrouded in secrecy, as it should be, so let us judge by the results. In barely four years in office, five jihadists have reached their targets in the United States under Barack Obama: the Boston Marathon bomber, the underwear bomber, the Times Square Bomber, the Fort Hood shooter, and in my own state—the Little Rock recruiting office shooter. In the over seven years after 9/11 under George W. Bush, how many terrorists reached their target in the United States? Zero! We need to ask, ‘Why is the Obama Administration failing in its mission to stop terrorism before it reaches its targets in the United States?’”

This sort of fear-mongering is the essence of what for forty years has passed for the heart and soul of republican campaigns. Be it blacks, gays, immigrants or now terrorists - fear was and is the main currency of republican campaigns. Don't like what's going on at the NSA? Yo conservatives, you voted for it lock, stock and barrel and have helped perpetuate the rhetoric of fear which made it as impossible for Obama to stop this program as it was for him to close Gitmo. So as far as I'm concerned, every conservative bitching about the NSA here or anywhere else can suck long and deep on it.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 07:38am PT
Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys far more oppressive of their citzens freedom than the USA
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Good point HealyJe. We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.

Hope and change my ass.


Response to Healyje who said:
"Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014."
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
As a follow up and corollary to your Bushco point then, anyone who voted for Obama voted for extraordinary murder of US citizens? It's the voters fault? As the murder of citizens for thought crime was initiated and expanded by Obama, can't blame that on Bushco.

I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries" platform and I don't recall Obama running under the "It's time to execute Americans for thought crime" banner either. But that's what you have. So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42pm PT

Someone's being blackmailed by the gov't, based on data mining, but without a whistleblower telling them it's happening, they wouldn't know it?
I'm sorry, but there's just no sense or logic in that assumption.
I mean, wouldn't I know I was being blackmailed, without Snowden telling me? Why do I need him to tell me that?

If a voyeur looking in your bedroom window was discreet enough that you don't see hims, have you been harmed? Better yet, he might scare away burglars, so in fact he's doing you a favor?

Personally, I don't have a big problem with billing records, I never felt they were private in the first place, and anyone who did was deluded, but where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, I don't want anyone looking or listening. If national security requires it, then let us know we're been listened to and let us decide.

I think this whole thing is a clever interim solution. Remember when Saddam Hussein realized it was far cheaper and easier to pretend he had WMD? Far cheaper to pretend the NSA has the ability to monitor and accurately catalog every phone call, email, google search and run facial recognition software on every CCTV and traffic camera in the nation. Eventually they will be able to, but in the meantime potential terrorists are afraid to even stand too near a phone or computer.

TE

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
There's a new cell phone game out - 'Where's Snowdon Now?'
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Zero Dark Thirty

What pure bullsh!t movie.

Hedge you're a tin foil hatter ....
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
The pattern:

"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Zero Dark Thirty

What pure bullsh!t movie.

Right. Like you were there. pffft.

Curt
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
The pattern:

"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."

Great post!

It is sad how soon we as a society forget the past. There is little new under the sun, and the pattern repeats. It is transparent if you really look, but it is always easier to believe the lie and go along with the crowd... Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Well there's Cotopaxi, Sangay, indigenous people living in the amazon and overall, a natural environment, but I think after about 6 months I'd want to go home. What's he going to do for a living, live off wikileaks donations?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
'Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys [sic] far more oppressive of their citzens [sic] freedom than the USA'


Nope.

Joe, it's nice being on the same side for once.

John
blowersattms

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Ironic, just maybe, but hey, all it means is that he's gone to countries outside our reach. Crikey, wouldn't you? It's not like he supports their ideologies, jeez! Listen to his interview. Ends and means, what!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails.

its amazing that the libtards have thier head so far up obamas ass that they can't smell the sh#t. you guys really think his sh#t is better than W's?

if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

no wonders this countrys so f*#ked up. you libtards on this site are as bad as teabaggers and just as brainless.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

So, you believe that after Congress authorized (and reauthorized) this surveillance and the Supreme Court upheld the legality of this surveillance, all that would be needed to stop it would be a simple opinion letter by the Attorney General? Please do explain exactly how that would work. Thanks.

Curt
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
The Russians and still mad about Obama's CIA spy caught with the wig there last month.

So Putin is twirling our limp piece of spagettii in the oval office for all he's worth and catching style points from around the world.

And contrary to libtard thinking it is not good when the whole world is smiling at our apparent weakness to get Snowden back.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
your the lawyer curt. tell us how it was the supreme court? my understanding was that it was FISA.

or are you saying that obama had no choice and lied during his initial campaign for POTUS, but thats OK with you since his sh#t dont stink?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
your the lawyer curt. tell us how it was the supreme court? my understanding was that it was FISA.

Your understanding just isn't very good--on multiple points.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/13164-supreme-court-allows-nsas-warrantless-wiretapping-to-continue

Curt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Curt's a lawyer? Uh oh...

At least he's consistently wrong.

Curt
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
"Glenn Greenwald has appeared on Jake Tapper's program on CNN. Tapper plays the exchange we linked to earlier this afternoon in which NBC's David Gregory suggested Greenwald may have "aid[ed] and abet[ted]" a crime.

......

Greenwald says the underlying premise of the question, that a journalist working with a source to tell a vital story based on sensitive information may be a criminal act, is pernicious to the work of truth-telling and chilling to investigative journalism as an enterprise."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

As Curt noted, it's way out of Obama/Holder's hands - the NSA's programs are authorized under the Patriot Act. The only recourse the administrations has is not signing intelligence appropriations. Or I suppose they could try and find a member of congress willing to front an Unpatriot Act.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
The head of the NSA, James Clapper, lied to congress when asked (lied directly to YOUR Senator Ron Wyden) when under oath. A lie through ommision is still a lie. Obama could and should have immediately fired him after reading the transcript. Link to an article from Slate, about as left leaning as it gets.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/06/fire_dni_james_clapper_he_lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html

This bullshit is on the executive branch.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
there you go joe. right on spelling out obama's impotence as a leader.

dont worry, your the type of guy who seems to like the smell of his sh#t so no harm no foul....but stop pretending that your liberal leanings or any more intelligent than someone who believes sarah palin all the time.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.

He has not spent years "expanding many government program" other than pressuring the Taliban with drone strikes in Pakistan as a prelude to our Afghan withdrawal. What other programs are you talking about? The use of drones in targeted killings of suspected terrorists is nothing new.

The targeting of America citizens is unique to this presidency and that I agree is on dubious legal ground - but, that legal/constitutional ground was again made entirely murky before Obama ever took office. But, this is again a symptom of a form of asymmetric warfare we've heavily engendered and against which our military is now essentially useless. This will have to be settled by Congress and SCOTUS over time, but however that settles out the challenge of what to do with American citizens who turn against us will surely remain.

I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries"...

Then you clearly weren't following along with BushCo's Project for a New American Century which actually pushed for, and campaigned on, exactly that premise.

So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.

The former point was not Snowden's, it's yours. Ask the republican voters in West, TX if government is too big. The 'government's too big' mantra is simplistic beyond words if not complete fantasy and folly and those who would pare it down would do so in all the wrong ways. And in fact, they've been hamstringing regulatory oversight of industry after industry in every conceivable way possible for decades now, but greed is the only driver to-date with your mantra giving that greed cover. 'Smaller government' is in no way the answer - effective government is, as would be government for humans as opposed to corporations, but conservatives are dead set against any such change.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Couchmaster: The head of the NSA, James Clapper, lied to congress when asked (lied directly to YOUR Senator Ron Wyden) when under oath. A lie through ommision is still a lie. Obama could and should have immediately fired him after reading the transcript. Link to an article from Slate, about as left leaning as it gets.

Clapper was responding in an open hearing to a question the answer to which he considered classified and so lied in response. You can argue, as other members of the Senate Intelligence Committee did, that Wyden - who, as a member of that committee and already knew the answer - deliberately put Clapper in an untenable position on purpose to publicly expose the NSA program.

As far as I'm concerned the distinction between Wyden's question and Snowden's release of NSA program information is basically negligible given both were deliberate. Maybe we should be indicting Wyden for treason as well given his intent was identical to Snowden's.

Hawkeye: there you go joe. right on spelling out obama's impotence as a leader.

You have a serious lack of understanding about the power of the Executive - it has nothing whatsoever to do with Obama - it wouldn't matter if Ron Paul, Mitt Romney. or God were president, he'd have no more recourse than Obama.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
joe the hypocrite. of course we knew that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
I'll take that as a complement coming from Hawkeye the ignorant. The number of conservative heads spinning here is basically hysterical.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
no conservative here. neither do i blindly blame the other guy because of party lines. your ability to justify obama's impotence is really pathetic, especially since you have it in your head that your logical. logical like sarah palin logical, you are.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
I'm not going to stir the pot or even voice an opinion, but there was a very intelligent and civil discussion on The Diane Rehm Show today on NPR.

She consistently brings both sides into the conversation, and today's show was no exception.

Really good, and worth a listen.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
The retarded comments by rsin and his promising understudy jhedge are a
case study of the low information poster.



In April 2011, Ecuador declared the then-U.S. ambassador in Ecuador
persona non grata, citing alleged confidential cables released to the
public by WikiLeaks.


US Ambassador Heather Hodges would not give satisfactory answers when asked
by Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino on how she knew of corruption in the
police department. She did not give up intel about NSA PRISM to the
Ecuadorians.


From their veiwpoint Obama's Ambassador Hodges insulted the national pride
of Ecuador and therefore was expelled.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12979967



J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
jdhedge ok you are operating with a childs understanding of spy v spy.
and are unable to fathom what she did wrong.



couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Then you clearly weren't following along with BushCo's Project for a New American Century which actually pushed for, and campaigned on, exactly that premise.

Not the first election, that was Bush's version of Hope and Change. Then came voter fear from 9/11, the war on terrorism and the patriot act for the Bushco opening act chapter 2. BTW, for "Blame Game" extra credit - how many members of congress, dem or repup, voted NOT to give the President authority to attact Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_presidential_campaign,_2000




"The former point was not Snowden's, it's yours."
Clearly he thought that the NSA and executive powers were out of control. But the man can still speak for himself...for now.



. 'Smaller government' is in no way the answer - effective government is, as would be government for humans as opposed to corporations, but conservatives are dead set against any such change.

You feel that you can effect change by singing Kumbayah? Uhhh, good luck with that. The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller goverment. The programs that remain will be easier to deal with along with the more commonsensical ones and stupid empire building projects will more than not drop by the wayside. Barring a powerful senator or 2 here or there and borrowing from the soon to be bankrupt Fed of course. Not that you will see a bankrupt FED, as due to their charter, they make 5% return on their activities. Basically they are bankrupting YOU to pay for things like this extra-constitutional illegal monitoring of everything you and I do. Because the Chinese are not loaning for stupid sh#t like this any more in case anyone missed that.

Have a nice day.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Edward Snowden is trying to escape the long arm of U.S. law by flying in and out of countries that clearly don't mind annoying us, and just as clearly are not the exemplars of democracy, transparency and civil liberties he wishes his own country to be.

Snowden's itinerary appeared to be evolving throughout much of Sunday. He left Hong Kong, landed in Russia and was reportedly bound for Cuba and then Venezuela. Later, the foreign minister of Ecuador tweeted that his country had received an asylum request from Snowden.

So say you're a citizen of Hong Kong, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela or Ecuador, and you want to protest against your government, maybe even leak some big secrets. What kind of conditions and treatment might you expect? Nothing close to Snowden's standard for his own country, that's for sure. Here's what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch conclude in their 2013 world reports:

HONG KONG: The island does not have universal suffrage, police use "overly restrictive methods" in controlling assembly, and the government is not investigating claims that China is monitoring and intimidating Beijing critics based in Hong Kong, says Human Rights Watch. The group says that in a first, two people from mainland China were sentenced to "reeducation through labor" after participating in the annual July 1 pro-democracy demonstration in Hong Kong.

RUSSIA: According to Amnesty International, the definitions of treason and espionage in Russia were broadened to include sharing information with "or providing miscellaneous assistance" to foreign states and organizations whose activities are "directed against security of the Russian Federation." Human Rights Watch said the expanded definition of treason "could lead to criminal action against those who conduct international advocacy on human rights issues."

Also relevant to the Snowden saga: "Trials did not meet international standards of fairness, and the number of apparently politically motivated decisions grew." And "allegations of torture and other ill-treatment remained widely reported."

As for the overall atmosphere, there was "an unprecedented crackdown against civic activism" in Russia last year, including new laws that "restrict nongovernmental organizations and freedoms of assembly and expression." Libel was re-criminalized several months after it was decriminalized. Amnesty International said that human-rights defenders, journalists and lawyers faced harassment, and investigations into violence against them were "ineffective."

CUBA: Human Rights Watch calls Cuba "the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent" and says it does so using "short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. "The government continues to sentence dissidents to one to four-year prison terms in closed, summary trials, and holds others for extended periods without charge," the group says.

Amnesty International noted that Antonio Michel Lima Cruz, released in October after a two-year sentence, had been convicted of "insulting symbols of the homeland" and "public disorder" for singing anti-government songs. An opposition blogger was blocked from leaving the country for a conference. In addition, " access to information on the Internet remained challenging due to technical limitations and restrictions on content."

VENEZUELA: The power amassed by the government under the late president Hugo Chavez has enabled it to "intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticize the president or thwart his political agenda," writes Human Rights Watch. Reprisals against government critics have unnerved judges, journalists and human rights defenders. Chavez adopted laws that "dramatically reduce the public's right to obtain information held by the government." In addition, he packed the Supreme Court, which "has largely abdicated its role as a check on executive power." Voters narrowly chose a hand-picked Chavez ally to succeed Chavez in a disputed April election.

ECUADOR: This is the country that gave asylum last summer to Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks. He is now advising Snowden from inside the embassy of Ecuador in London, where he has been for a year.

Human Rights Watch in its latest annual report notes that journalists and media figures who criticize the government are subjected to "public denunciation and retaliatory litigation." In addition, it says, "Corruption, inefficiency, and political influence have plagued Ecuador's judiciary for years."

The group cites a "terrorism and sabotage" section of the criminal code that it says authorities are using against people protesting about issues like the environment. There's also a 2011 decree from President Rafael Correa allowing the government to monitor the activities of all international NGOs with offices in Ecuador, and rescind their authorizations to operate if, among other things, they resort to "political interference" or "attack public security and peace." And just last week, Human Rights Watch scored Ecuador for a new law it termed an "assault on free speech."

Like the other nations on Snowden's sanctuary search, this does not seem like his type of place.

The two groups did not spare America, which came in for criticism over the death penalty, its incarceration rate, and counter-terrorism policies that include lethal force, military commissions, and indefinite detentions at Guantanamo. However, Human Rights Watch also said that "The United States has a vibrant civil society and media that enjoy strong constitutional protections." In other words, the place Snowden is fleeing, though imperfect, likely comes closest to his ideal.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
You feel that you can effect change by singing Kumbayah? Uhhh, good luck with that. The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller goverment. The programs that remain will be easier to deal with, and stupid empire building projects will more than not drop by the waysiede. Barring a powerful senator or 2 here or there.


As a conservative, I concur.

After that maybe we can work to make Congressional bills decipherable. No more 1000+ page bills that nobody reads "until it's passed".

If it takes more than a handful of pages, make another bill that addresses the additional specifics. Washington is lacking in common-sense, or common-good. Pretty big on lobbyists.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Think about it Tradman. If the claim that Snowden has 4 laptops full of info is true. China now has a copy of that info. All of it. He will fly to Russia. They will have full copies soon, so that they get the "truth" or the info directly anyway, and not a Chinese edited version. Not because Snowden gave it over, but simply because he left them in his hotel room and walked down for some KFC.

That's what that means. It's going to cost us, the taxpayer, shitload of scratch to get an intelligence lead like that again. We may all but had our own Enigma machine and he handed the codes over. We're getting f*#ked by Snowden while getting F*#ked by our own government. This game has been going on for quite some time. For myself, I'd rather be a winner, but I would concede at the start of any discourse that my distrust of big government (Chinese, Russian, and US) and of what appears to be near unrestricted political power sometimes clouds my reasoning.



Oh and Hawkeye, there is no need to denigrate Joe or anyone else you disagree with. He doesn't personally attack you. If he did I'd feel different. For myself, I find Healyjes responses intelligent, informed, interesting and challenging, even when he is wrong (heh heh). I think if someone can't argue against a point with intellect and reason, it's either saying that they are either A) WRONG. or B) A DUMBASS too stupid to reason a counter point. Sometimes just reading a point which you may disagree with the 2nd go round can change your assumptions and views. That's a good thing. Challenge yourself.

One of the problems with the net is that our responses, which can come out of both our life experience and book smarts, tend to get abbreviated. I just did it with the 2 word summation "Smaller government". Whereas in person I can expound on a lot of nuances that would mean and why. This Snowden issue has a lot of nuances and depth which we would be able to better convey in person.

Regards to all
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Complicated legislation? You mean hidden legislation? Legislation is pretty strait forward. Through, it's very repetitive to say the least.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
you are correct couchmaster.

healyje wants to blame the program on bush when obama himself has supported it publicly.

but hey, obama didnt build that, he had help. and taking responsibility is not this administrations strong point.

we are recording everyone's data and would have a sh#t fit if russia and china did it to us. we have lost our moral high ground, the same moral high ground that libtards wanted back when BO was elected. instead we got the shaft.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I certainly do not think this admin is all that great but any way you look at it this is treason.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Who the fck is this rsin azzhat?
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
perhaps someone you don't want to rope up with.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:16pm PT
No sh#t. annother blowhard loser that does not show their real name in their profile..
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Only you are laughing perhaps Joe hedge?

"perhaps someone you don't want to rope up with."


Hey, what about this tie in thing? No need to attack each other. Really. Work on your reasoning skillz.
Oh and Hawkeye, there is no need to denigrate Joe or anyone else you disagree with. He doesn't personally attack you. If he did I'd feel different. For myself, I find Healyjes responses intelligent, informed, interesting and challenging, even when he is wrong (heh heh). I think if someone can't argue against a point with intellect and reason, it's either saying that they are either A) WRONG. or B) A DUMBASS too stupid to reason a counter point. Sometimes just reading a point which you may disagree with the 2nd go round can change your assumptions and views. That's a good thing. Challenge yourself.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
ps, I suspect I'd tie in with Rsin. I've tied in with Healyje more than once. Other than being overly opinionated, especially online (not as much as my last partner of over 25 years who made healyje look like a Bush sycophant, thank the good lord it was before internet and the dude really had a good heart too), he's very competent and fun when you are hanging with him and he's not being opinionated. Maybe I'll tie in again with him. Regardless, lets talk nice to each other. Rsin, any climbing shots?


Healyje invited me to hang with him this much needed cleaning party he organized. I don't get out as much and always appreciate the invitations these days. Damned good times.

Lets climb.

Lets argue about important things.

Lets drink.

Woot! America.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
And that ^^^ my friends, is why you should tie in with Rsin and spend the day out. Clearly he's smart enough not to kill you, an you may learn something of value.

Even when he's wrong:-)

ps, wrong example of grammer Rsin, it's not
"their recording it all"
although it's technically correct it's not gramatically correct and it tosses folks off they're stride. (They're stride?) it's "they're"...contraction of They Are. As in "They're recording it all", not Tiehr (possessive) recorxing it all. see how grammar makes a diffenreoj and tjh4 otjh aoijht eoijhrfeioejhf uf foeje vfiffjhf iudedseie ffifidej deijf deriudeiudiudfiu cvf deduyeu ecdjhdsiofjhjh cvfdideiue dide dedf dfodfuvf uv ? See? It matters.

WHICH IS TO SAY IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A REAL POINT AND NOT JUST BABBLE, put it in terms which done toss folks off their stride.

That is all I have.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
hedge, dont assume.

of course russia and china are hacking. but we do it better and bigger along with the data collection.

you should go back to the Dr F thread where you can have libtard group gropes.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
"most anyone whos every insisted that theyre not going to hear what im saying because i dont speak the queens english has proven to be not only an ass of unbelievable purportion in person"

This is all of us. Wholly dependent on the degree of Queens English divergence of course.

Ass's unit:-)
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
Point is that "Asses unite" should have been the correct spelling above.

See? Or lets go with "ass unit". Whatever. I only misspelled it. Right on man, let those who insist on strict Queens English piss off! Right mate? Does it mean the same? No. It makes a difference and just because every one sees Ass's unit and ignores me, is no reason for me to think that the communication issue is with THEM.

Good night everyone. My best to all ....

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
If the claim that Snowden has 4 laptops full of info is true. China now has a copy of that info. All of it. He will fly to Russia. They will have full copies soon, so that they get the "truth" or the info directly anyway, and not a Chinese edited version. Not because Snowden gave it over, but simply because he left them in his hotel room and walked down for some KFC.

Hey couchmaster, personally I expect that Snowden is smart enough to be using some high level encryption on those drives. As you mention, its well known that if you leave your electronics in your hotel in China someone will come and vacuum up the data, and I'm sure Snowden was aware of this. I doubt that the Chinese were able to grab his data. The good thing about Hong Kong is there are enough activists and a network with lots of experience in hiding dissidents and protecting themselves from the Mainland. What do I know, but I bet he was able to avoid CCP cops and spies.

I am concerned that he might have been grabbed by Russian intelligence. I saw a quote from a former KGB general, that "it would be unthinkable of our special services to miss this rare chance to talk to a U.S. defector associated with the CIA". That might be very bad news for Snowden. I guess we'll know more in a few days.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 01:16am PT
The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller government.

Except the "smaller government" you envision would never come to pass. The corporate 'anti-government' crew, who bridle at any form of government oversight and who masquerade under 'smaller government' sloganeering while invoking the sympathies of otherwise well-meaning and frustrated folk as yourself, have no agenda beyond the elimination of effective government oversight of industry.

From process, mining, and oil & gas industries attempting to end clean air and water protections to insurance and financial industries attempting to gut what paltry consumer protections exist - it's the same story. Your "smaller government" would destroy the environment, rape and pillage the average citizen worse than they already are, and be extra heavy on defense spending. And worse still, it would only be a government smaller on paper as [mercenary] government contracting shot through the roof far worse than it already has.

There will never be a 'smaller government', only a corporate government run by those who would be free of any significant oversight.

Basically they are bankrupting YOU to pay for things like this extra-constitutional illegal monitoring of everything you and I do.

I've yet to see any evidence of 'extra-constitutionally' illegal monitoring so far - all the monitoring discussed thus far is entirely constitutional under the Patriot Act. I understand a lot of folks don't like it and feel it's 'extra-constitutional', but it is in fact entirely legal so far until hard evidence is produced otherwise.

I get the sense a lot of folks here think quite 'ala carte' as opposed to understanding the larger picture in context. And that context goes back a good ways to our interactions in the Mideast since WWII (which essentially attempted to treat the Mideast like Latin America) and in our entirely one-sided support of Israel.

You simply can't act as stupid as we have across the region for decades - then top it off by destabilizing the region with one war of mis-communication followed by two preemptive ones driven by delusional fantasy - and then assume there aren't going to be profound, extensive, and long-lasting consequences. And, when you push such an agenda with decades of fear, you further hamstring our ability to make reasoned and reasonable political and military responses in the rubble and ashes of the aftermath.

And that's where we are today regardless of where you look across North Africa and the Mideast - a complete frigging mess where there are no good answers for any of the players. Not for us, not Iran, not Russia, not China, and certainly not for the countries, tribes, sects, and citizens of the Mideast. The only parties you can make a case for having marginally benefited from our investment of trillions of dollars in the region are Iran, China, and any guy on the street with a passing fancy for highly effective IEDs.

And this is the world and extended consequences we, as a nation, and the Obama administration, inherited from BushCo and their delusional neocon fantasy. Don't like drone attacks? Don't like NSA Bluffdale? Don't like debacle sweeping around the SE Mediterranean coast? Bummer dude - but these are all extended and intertwined consequences and results of one US misstep after another in the region culminating in the world as you see it today both at home and abroad.

And make no mistake about it, the pooch has now been screwed on grand scale such that no president, of any party, is going to clean this frigging mess up in under a couple of decades and that's only barring us not continuing to be colossal f*#kups. So, it doesn't really matter whether Obama, Mitt, or Ron was or is president, there would be little difference today because the options are now so incredibly limited and the threats to our nation and interests considerably shifted in both scope and method. Romney and Paul would both have signed every single intelligence appropriations bill that crossed their desks. Both would be out of Iraq and Afghanistan on the same time-table as Obama. Gitmo would still be in business because of a pervasive climate fear driven by one republican campaign after another.

In such a climate of fear, what no president can [politically] afford is to look like they aren't doing everything possible to protect the nation - even when, in fact, their options are unfortunately quite limited. So yes, Obama has signed the intelligence appropriations and followed the military's advice to punish the Taliban's leadership wherever they operate from (which means Pakistan) and to keep beheading 'al qaeda' / Jihad Di leaders as they step up (regardless of citizenship). Do I like any of it? Absolutely not. But again, our options are uncomfortably slim and doing nothing is not one of them.

BushCo left us with a highly-destabilized Mideast and a sophistication in asymmetric warfare never before seen - and all of it now propelled by technology. And that is happening against a backdrop of our having largely taken our eye off the strategic geopolitical ball; the ascendancy of a young wealthy class of technocratic and highly nationalistic Chinese leaders intent on restoring China's dominion over Asia and the Western Pacific; and a Russia at a number of crossroads attempting to restore its own power.

The Mideast, being highly-destabilized with no good options for anyone, especially when viewed against that strategic geopolitical backdrop, makes for an unpredictable and dangerous world with everyone trying to stay in and keep up with the game. It's a situation tailor-made for bad-judgment, mistakes, and serious mis-communication by any and all parties including us.

We'll be lucky if we've seen the worst of it...

[ P.S. Couch, if I ever do manage to climb again you're always welcome. You're one of the most competent and capable climbers I've roped up with even if somewhat naively optimistic on the 'smaller government' front. ]

kunlun_shan: Hey couchmaster, personally I expect that Snowden is smart enough to be using some high level encryption on those drives.

I seriously doubt Snowden has anything of any value to a foreign government, but rather just more program documentation / evidence embarrassing to ours. There's nothing new or novel about what the NSA is doing technologically that the Russians and Israelis (and by that extension the Chinese) can't replicate without any info from Snowden. What they do all envy is our telcom infrastructure which makes the surveillance so much easier than in their countries, though that is changing with the shift to cellphones.

But 'secrets' of any value - encrypted or otherwise? Highly doubtful. He's out to disclose the scope and scale of our surveillance program, not its content. And even if he had that intent, it's incredibly unlikely he had access to any of the kinds of summary intelligence archives Manning had.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:31am PT
I gather that he arranged for a talented filmmaker to shoot the Greenwald interview.

Yeah, but what's the big deal about that? The guy is smart, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing about him.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/qa_with_laura_poitras_the_woman_behind_the_nsa_scoops/

So how did this all begin?

I was originally contacted in January, anonymously.

By Edward Snowden?

Well, I didn’t know who it was.



I'm looking forward to the documentary!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:59am PT
gigabytes of intelligence info

Again, more like gigabytes of program documentation, none of it particularly valuable to Russia, China, or anyone else other than it's use in painting us a something other than the 'Land of the Free' and that is a mirror we've turned on ourselves with no one else to blame. Again, bummer if we don't like what we see in the mirror.

And there's been more than enough whistle blowing over the past decade culminating in the Manning/Wikileaks affair for anyone with half a wit to figure out what the likely repercussions are going to be, who to best contact, and what represents as plausible an exit plan as possible (and those options are limited).

Now you can question his judgment on some of those calls, but given the number of cases where the media has been backed down and courts stonewalled by evidence being classified he must have known he wasn't going to get a fair day in court on a matter like this in the U.S. and that's also on us.

I personally think he thought it through about as well as one can given his decision meant an end to life as he knew it. And he's in a tough spot at this point, as I suspect Iceland isn't going to take him in given their financial situation and all the other alternatives are way downhill from there.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:46am PT
azzhat is stalled in moscow. being debreifed no doubt. nothing more than a common traitor.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:59am PT
Well, traitor would be one word for it, but I'd be using that word against half of BushCo before applying it to the likes of Snowden.

 Dick Cheney
 Donald Rumsfeld
 Paul Wolfowitz
 Douglas Feith
 Elliot Abrams
 Richard Armitage
 Richard Perle
 John Bolton
 John Yoo
 Alberto Gonzales
 Karl Rove

Traitors to a man...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:12am PT
It is really simple. The guy had a top secret security clearance and he leaked a bunch of classified NSA sh#t = traitor
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:32am PT
A few of those bush azzhats fit the bill as well.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
Those NSA files where merely a warm-up act and the main event will be much more damaging to the US and her allies. He will be selling national secrets of encryption capabilities, data gathering techniques and locations of signals intelligence stations located thought the world.

Highly unlikely. Again, our "encryption capabilities" and "data gathering techniques" are not particularly special, interesting, or secret.

All aspects of cryptography, including encryption attacks, are active fields of worldwide research and we have no particular corner on the best minds in the field, many of which hail from Russia and Israel. So scratch "encryption capabilities" off the list of things of interest Snowden might reveal.

Similarly, "data gathering techniques" are technically pedestrian at this point and the collection loci are patently obvious to anyone familiar with communications technologies. The combination of technology, infrastructure, and accessibility by and large dictate the location of "signals intelligence stations" and so their locations are not terribly difficult to deduce by anyone knowledgeable in the craft.

And data archiving and analysis are basically off-the-shelf and open source with the ability to operationally scale out data centers in a reliable manner being the real challenge (something we do well, but that can't be conveyed on a thumb drive).

All in all, the odds are slim Snowden has much of value beyond embarrassing program documentation and the primary damage he's doing is to our [self] image of the U.S. as a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 25, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin made an interesting comment yesterday that I think is spot on. His comment was essentially that the Snowden affair is no longer a legal issue, but rather one of politics and foreign policy.

Curt
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin made an interesting comment yesterday that I think is spot on. His comment was essentially that the Snowden affair is no longer a legal issue, but rather one of politics and foreign policy.

Curt

something we agree on. until they catch him it will be a huge political issue that the US is losing.

we look like a bunch of incompetents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/world/snowden.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Putin Rules Out Extradition for Snowden in Russia Airport

By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN, PETER BAKER and RICK GLADSTONE

Published: June 25, 2013 502 Comments

MOSCOW — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia confirmed directly for the first time on Tuesday that Edward J. Snowden, the fugitive former American national security contractor, was staying temporarily in an international transit area at a Moscow airport, and Mr. Putin appeared to rule out American requests for his extradition to the United States.

Speaking at a news conference while on an official visit to Finland, Mr. Putin offered no new information on where Mr. Snowden might be headed from the transit area of Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow, where he has been ensconced, out of public view, for the past two days. But he said Mr. Snowden had broken no Russian laws.

“Mr. Snowden is a free man,” Mr. Putin said, “and the sooner he chooses his final destination, the better it will be both for us and for him.”

Mr. Putin also said Mr. Snowden's arrival "was a complete surprise for us" and that as a transit passenger, “he doesn’t need a visa or other documents. As a transit passenger, he has a right to buy a ticket and fly wherever he wants.”

He sought to refute suggestions that Russian security officials might be talking to Mr. Snowden, who is believed to be carrying a trove of American intelligence data on laptop computers and thumb drives. Mr. Putin said they “have never worked with Mr. Snowden and are not working with him now.”

The remarks by Mr. Putin were the most definitive and extensive from the Russian government on Mr. Snowden, whose successful effort, so far, to elude his American pursuers has captivated global attention, showed the limits of American power and strained American relations with both Russia and China. Mr. Snowden flew to Moscow on Sunday from Hong Kong despite an American request that the authorities there arrest him.

Mr. Putin said American accusations that Russia was abetting a fugitive “are just a nightmare and nonsense,” and he appeared to end any possibility that Russia would extradite Mr. Snowden.

“We can extradite foreign nationals only to those countries with which we have relevant international agreements on the extradition of criminals,” Mr. Putin said. “We have no such agreement with the United States.”

While in Russian territory, Mr. Putin said, “Mr. Snowden, thank God, has not committed any crimes.”

Mr. Putin spoke hours after the Russian foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, chastised the United States for its demands regarding Mr. Snowden, who has been charged with violating American espionage laws by revealing secret information on intelligence-gathering. He and his allies describe him as a whistle-blower whose revelations have exposed what they called the United States government’s invasion of privacy around the world.

Mr. Lavrov said Mr. Snowden had not crossed the Russian border, which appeared at first to be a denial that he was in Russia. But it also was a technical way of saying Mr. Snowden was in the international passenger transit area, a restricted zone where foreign travelers do not get their passports stamped and do not pass through immigration checkpoints as they await flight connections to other countries.

American officials, including Secretary of State John Kerry, lashed out with unusual force on Monday against China for allowing Mr. Snowden to leave Hong Kong, against Russia for permitting him safe transit and against Ecuador for declaring that it is actively considering Mr. Snowden’s request for political asylum. The Americans have demanded that he be seized and repatriated.

“He didn’t cross the Russian border, and we consider the attempts we are seeing to accuse the Russian side of violating United States law as completely ungrounded and unacceptable, or nearly a conspiracy accompanied by threats against us,” Mr. Lavrov said, speaking to reporters here after a meeting with the Algerian foreign minister. He added, “There are no legal grounds for this kind of behavior from American officials toward us.”

Later in the day Mr. Kerry, speaking to reporters while visiting Saudi Arabia, sought to tone down the angry exchange of words with his Russian counterpart, with whom he has sought to cultivate a good relationship. “We are not looking for a confrontation,” Mr. Kerry said.

The comments by Mr. Putin and Mr. Lavrov were the first by top Russian officials about Mr. Snowden since Mr. Snowden’s reported arrival at Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow on Sunday. Employees of Aeroflot, the Russian airline, said Mr. Snowden had been booked on an afternoon flight Monday to Havana, but he did not board and the aircraft left without him.

Ecuador confirmed that it had received an asylum request and had provided documents allowing Mr. Snowden to travel there. Mr. Snowden’s American passport has been revoked.

Russian officials on Monday said that they had no information about Mr. Snowden, which seemed unlikely at the time given that the Russian police took the unusual step of standing on the tarmac surrounding the plane that reportedly was supposed to take him to Cuba. Russian authorities also cordoned off the gate and had threatened to take telephones from journalists preparing to board the flight.

The sharp tone of comments by Mr. Kerry and other American officials was surprising, in part because there was no reason to believe that they could force Russia to cooperate and because it is highly unlikely that, if the roles were reversed, the United States would readily repatriate a Russian fugitive security official reportedly carrying computers filled with government secrets.

The United States and Russia, fierce rivals on intelligence matters dating to the cold war, have long shown an ability to maintain their broader bilateral relationship in the face of occasional disputes over espionage incidents, including the arrest last month in Moscow of an American Embassy employee accused of working as an operative for the Central Intelligence Agency. But Mr. Lavrov’s pointed remarks indicated that the diplomatic contretemps was taking a nasty turn.

On Monday, the United States accused Russia of ignoring the law in allowing Mr. Snowden to travel through the Moscow airport and sharply criticized Russia, China and Ecuador over their records on Internet freedom.

Mr. Lavrov said on Tuesday, “We have no connection with Mr. Snowden, nor with his relation toward the American justice system, nor with his movement around the world. He chose his own route and we, like most of those here, found out about this from the press.”

The anti-secrecy organization WikiLeaks, which says it has helped Mr. Snowden evade the American authorities, has said that he is safe and healthy but has declined to pinpoint his whereabouts. The White House has said it believes that Mr. Snowden is still in Moscow.

American officials also openly mocked China and Russia on Monday as states that repress free speech and transparency and therefore are hardly apt refuges for someone fighting government secrecy in the United States.

“I wonder if Mr. Snowden chose China and Russia as assistants in his flight from justice because they’re such powerful bastions of Internet freedom,” Mr. Kerry said sarcastically during a stop in New Delhi.

President Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney, said Mr. Snowden’s chosen destinations indicated “his true motive throughout has been to injure the national security of the United States.”

The strong words went beyond typical diplomatic language and underscored the growing ramifications of the case for the United States. The Obama administration’s inability, at least for now, to influence China, Russia and countries in Latin America that may accept Mr. Snowden for asylum, like Ecuador, brought home the limits of American power around the world.

Ecuador’s foreign minister, Ricardo Patiño, criticized the United States on Monday for its pursuit of Mr. Snowden. “The one who is denounced pursues the denouncer,” Mr. Patiño said at a news conference in Hanoi, Vietnam, a stop on a previously scheduled diplomatic visit to Asia. “The man who tries to provide light and transparency to issues that affect everyone is pursued by those who should be giving explanations about the denunciations that have been presented.”

Ecuador’s president, Rafael Correa, wrote on his Twitter account, “We will analyze very responsibly the Snowden case and with absolute sovereignty will make the decision we consider the most appropriate.” The United States remains Ecuador’s leading trading partner, but Washington’s influence in Quito has been slight since Mr. Correa became president in 2007. He has repeatedly flouted and tweaked the United States, by, for example, stopping American antidrug flights out of a military base in Manta, and expelling the American ambassador in 2011 after WikiLeaks cables suggested she felt Mr. Correa had tolerated police corruption.

A range of American officials, including the deputy secretary of state and the F.B.I. director, spent Monday reaching out to their Russian counterparts seeking cooperation, without any apparent result. Mr. Snowden, who spent Sunday night in the transit zone of Sheremetyevo Airport, did not board the flight for Havana and he made no public appearance or statement.

American intelligence officials remained deeply concerned that Mr. Snowden could make public more documents disclosing details of the National Security Agency’s collection system or that his documents could be obtained by foreign intelligence services, with or without his cooperation.

Technical experts have been carrying out a forensic analysis of the trail he left in N.S.A. computer systems, trying to determine what he had access to as a systems administrator for Booz Allen Hamilton, a United States government contractor, and what he may have downloaded, officials said.

The South China Morning Post reported Monday night on its Web site that in an interview, Mr. Snowden said he had specifically sought the job at Booz Allen so he could collect information about the N.S.A.'s secret surveillance programs to release to news outlets.

Glenn Greenwald, a columnist for The Guardian, has said Mr. Snowden gave him thousands of documents, only a tiny fraction of which were published. Many may be of limited public interest, but they could be of great value to a foreign intelligence service, which could get a more complete idea of the security agency’s technical abilities and how to evade its net, officials said.




David M. Herszenhorn reported from Moscow, Peter Baker from Washington and Rick Gladstone from New York. Reporting was contributed by Ellen Barry and Andrew Roth from Moscow; Scott Shane, Steven Lee Myers and Charlie Savage from Washington; Michael R. Gordon from Jidda, Saudi Arabia; William Neuman from Quito, Ecuador; and Victoria Burnett from Havana.

WBraun

climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Nobody knows whats going on behind this whole thing.

Just 1600 news outlets all owned by 6 news corporations all guessing and making up sh!t.

Americans are so s ........

abrams

Sport climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
Correct. There could well be deception piled on deception going on.

Snowden's laptops and flash sticks could well be JUST BAIT and loaded with variants of the STUXNET virus hoping to get uploaded into the moscow secure backbone.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
My big beef? Who puts up a post where I have to scroll to the right to see other people's posts?

As inconsiderate as a whistleblower.


Wahhhhh


Somebody call me a whaambulance
WBraun

climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Snowden flies to Ecuador and the US will launch surface to air missile and blow up his plane and blame it on Muslims?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
June 25, 2013

Self-Pacification of the American Citizenry
Edward J. Snowden and the Exposure of Voyeuristic Fascism
by NORMAN POLLACK

in the last two weeks—a sliver of time as wars and the violation of civil liberties go—America has suddenly lost face, stature, and the moral high ground it has always claimed, and stands exposed, more than in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, to the world’s and its own people’s understanding as the invader of human dignity and privacy, priceless attributes distinguishing democracy from totalitarianism.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/25/edward-j-snowden-and-the-exposure-of-voyeuristic-fascism/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=edward-j-snowden-and-the-exposure-of-voyeuristic-fascism

Snowden enters the picture, surprisingly aware of all that is at stake, as witness his eloquent statements about how the denial of civil liberties negates and repudiates a democratic society, and from there, recognizes the magnitude of crime associated with surveillance. An individual, alone, powerless at the outset, has spoken out, and doing so, has shaken the foundations of power. This, more than a high point in the record of whistle-blowers, though intimately related to it, marks an epochal moment in the history of American freedom—or the search for it! It mustn’t be allowed to slip by as a result of the chorus of denunciation, from POTUS on down through all the usual suspects, Democrats and Republicans alike. Snowden has raised privacy into the pantheon of constitutional rights it deserves to be, as the index of societal health and individual personhood—something all the nefarious interventions, drone strikes, CIA-JSOC missions of subversion, indefinite detentions, have sought to obliterate from the popular consciousness, and until now, partially succeeded in doing.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
SURVEILLANCE is not accidental strategy, but rather the cutting edge of individuals’ self-pacification, a well-tested mechanism of social control. One hesitates to speak, then even to think; one chooses one’s associates warily, lest found on someone’s list, the all-pervasive fear of being watched, dissected, analyzed by the prying eyes of the State, now a government-empowered and –legitimated National Security Agency (and multiple other intelligence agencies, along with such legislative onslaughts as TALON, CIFA, TIAP, and don’t forget MATRIX, Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange, some of which going even too far for Congress’s reactionary taste), fully capable of spying on and retrieving the most intimate conversations between people hitherto unsuspecting of eavesdropping. Hopefully, suspiciousness of government will ensue, even though practices of this nature continue, because, as political theory teaches us, democratic society and government are founded on trust, without which, there can be no social compact
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
If he is so f*#king high and mighty about free society what is he doing in russia?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
Snowden put his finger in the dike holding back the sea of totalitarianism, itself not an inaccurate designation any longer, i.e., if one believes that civil liberties is the linchpin of its polar opposite, a social democracy based on the respect for and equal treatment of the individual under the rule of law, because what the US government has done is destroy the American constitutional-social fabric, in the process making a mockery of the law through trampling on traditional safeguards to freedom of thought and rights of association, protection from unwarranted searches and seizures, and down a slippery slope to everything from use of informers, planted evidence, “dirty tricks,” to encouragement of mutual suspicion, the breakup of radical organizations, whatever government deems central to its interests, safety, and continued lawlessness.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
Ho ho! Breaking the cycle of violence? That's going to happen very soon.
Just be patient.


Amidst the never ending wars (from the beginning of the Republic up to the
Principate, the doors of the temple of Janus were closed only twice - when
they were open it meant that Rome was at war), Rome had to face a severe
major social crisis, the Conflict of the Orders, a political struggle
between the Plebeians (commoners) and Patricians (aristocrats)..

war
and more war
followed by still more war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Rome#Legend_of_Rome

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
Snowden turned the spotlight on the forbidden territory of the dark world inhabited by the Obama administration, a reaching out of tentacles not only in America but on a world basis, as his revelations of PRIMUS and foreign communications intercepts, including wiretaps of diplomats and conferences shows. The details are familiar by now, from the Guardian, Washington Post, New York Times, to the Continental press and worldwide—a story that will not go away, given the enormity of the offense and the hypocrisy of Washington. For this reason, I believe Snowden is a marked man in Obama’s eyes, to him to be practically equated with Osama bin Laden, and therefore, being in Obama’s cross-hairs, if not through rendition (“accidents will happen”) then a direct target of paramilitary operations, Snowden is right to fear for his life and to seek asylum.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Snowden cannot be allowed to go free, not because he divulged State Secrets, but because he symbolizes the power—may I say, sublimeness?—of truth, particularly against what he exposed as a pack of political criminals, and beyond that, exposed, through their workings, the inner springs of repression on which American society and its structure of power depend, namely, self-pacification as an overriding state of moral-political inaction of body and mind, a rejection of social protest in thought and deed, the individual subject to cues provided by acute patriotism, consumerism, and the heavy-handed militarization of Authority. That, we could see, and for some, speak out against.

But this added factor, brought out by Snowden, of surveillance, gives self-pacification silent and powerful reinforcement: the fear of terrorism, itself contrived by government to justify security arrangements bordering on informal regimentation, has become transformed/extended into what psychologists would term—if only they examined consequential societal issues—the “introjection” of the entire power system in America, including its capitalist and military foundations, and the people’s own expected docility to its furtherance, goals, and ideology.

That is a big burden to carry around, even if unnoticed (the test of repression’s value and success to an authoritarian government), which leaves the individual naked and vulnerable to the extreme politicization of mindset designed to eschew critical thinking, and rather, glorify the State.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
Americans are so s ........

stupid?

Curt
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:57pm PT
"Glenn Greenwald, a columnist for The Guardian, has said Mr. Snowden gave him thousands of documents, only a tiny fraction of which were published. Many may be of limited public interest, but they could be of great value to a foreign intelligence service, which could get a more complete idea of the security agency’s technical abilities and how to evade its net, officials said."

Uninformed supposition.

SIGINT (COMINT, ELINT, etcINT) has been going on since at least ancient Greece. The Russians and Chinese are under no illusions or doubts about the NSA, CIA, and DIA's capabilities, scope or coverage. And the likelihood they have any questions about "how to evade its net" is also about nil. Ok, sure, there are some governments like the Seychelles, Mauritania, and Cook Islands who might learn something they didn't know, but it's more a basic 'get a grip' sort of deal.

I mean, hey, governments and the intelligence community no longer have a lock on any of this stuff. It's all out there, available and even the computing and network hardware is all subject to all manner of creative attacks, hacking, and modding. None of it is a "secret" anymore. If anything, governments and their agencies are way behind the curve right now - even the NSA. This stuff is going on 24x7x365 all around the world by everyone from bored middle-schoolers to the NSA and KGB.
WBraun

climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
If he is so f*#king high and mighty about free society what is he doing in russia?


He is not IN Russia itself.

He's in the international transition area where one has not yet actually entered the country yet.

Do you people even read ??????
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Domestic spying of the breadth and scope practiced by the NSA (which along with the CIA has become Obama’s Janus-faced look toward both internal and external acts of structural-political subversion) becomes the handmaid of counterterrorism, the latter, now self-legitimated through government edict thus spreading a cloak of legitimacy as well around the former. Surveillance is good! We hear ad nauseum that there must be a balance struck between security and privacy, with the former invariably taking precedence—a convenient debater’s trick because the former can be infinitely enlarged, and the latter, a straw man, toothless to boot. America’s fear of terrorism, itself a form of terrorism practiced on the people, paves the way for domestic spying on the part of Authority with impunity.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
Wbraun, just say it. Stupi.....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Militarism and surveillance are kissing cousins, each depends on the acceptance of prescribed ORDER. That order, a supreme ideological value of an hierarchical class structure such as we have now more than ever, with wide disparities of wealth and power, has in different, though largely nonpolitical, ways been challenged for some time, yet still awaiting focus—which Brazilian ferment, still a straw in the wind, may (along with Greece and Turkey) inspire. In any event, conformity is wearing thin, given multiple sources of discontent in American culture and society, building from civil rights, protest over Vietnam, and the rebelliousness of the counterculture, to what could be but has not yet been fashioned into a recognizable adversarial force for structural-economic-social change through the brute facts and experience of unemployment, mortgage foreclosure, rape of the environment, and the endless march to war, intervention, military stockpiling, and the abridgement of working-class rights and civil liberties. There is a crack in the façade of order, as understood by ruling groups, which, despite earlier abilities to control (and even sublimate into the time-honored paths of consumerism), can no longer be tolerated, particularly because they themselves perceive America’s changing position, its relative decline, in a now-multipolar world system beyond their powers of unilateral hegemony—therefore making the demand for conformity all the more urgent and satisfying.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
Snowden blows to smithereens the pious claims of American Exceptionalism, a city on the hill made up of political demagogues, snoopers, voyeurs, mercenaries, and the scavengers in our midst, supercomputers to the ready, armed with preconceived notions of enemies lurking in the dark, a wholesale assemblage of vile operatives who are cloaked in the Flag, seemingly unassailable—until one person came along to reveal the public garbage masking itself as national security. This writer wishes him God’s speed to safety, long life, good health. The nation, whether it knows it or not, is indebted to Snowden’s bravery and moral conscience.

Norman Pollack is the author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, Eichmann on the Potomac, will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Snowden blows to smithereens the pious claims of American Exceptionalism

Snowden? You've got to be kidding me. Man, if it's taken Snowden to wake anyone up to the pious claims of American Exceptionalism then you've been dead asleep at the wheel for a decade at least and somehow missed manufactured intelligence, preemptive war, constitutional violations, treaty violations, rendition, and torture. Hell, BushCo flushed everything that was 'exceptional' about America down the toilet in pursuit of neocon glory in the wake of 9/11.

America’s fear of terrorism, itself a form of terrorism

And fear is the principle currency of conservatives and the republican party. The unfortunate aspect of the success of their fear-based campaign strategy is that while in power they created such a mess of global scope such that we, as a nation, now do have enemies to fear and doing nothing is no longer an option.

Because we can't have it both ways.

So, the question isn't that black and white, but rather one of unpleasant grays - how do we protect ourselves in a world where technology-driven asymmetric warfare capable of mass casualties is now within reach of non-state actors?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
the architects of Nazi Germany designed Totalitarian America...

with an additional 70 years of research and development...

the American public, not having learned so much...dazzled by Hollywood celebrities, big sports teams, puppet politicians, controlled media...

there's now little need of our large wage slave worker population...

pay attention to what has been done all around the world...supported by your work and taxes...

look and learn...

because now they are bringing it back home to you

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
anyone who chokes up on that very well documented statement just hasn't done their homework

however unless you are a history buff, you could indeed invoke Godwin's law and dismiss the obvious implications

or you might want to read 'World without Cancer', a book by G. Edward Griffin, which is well worth a read in any case

followed perhaps by the voluminous 1970s report from the US Congress entitled 'Interlocking Directorates in Corporate America'
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
how am i supposed to respond when i make an admittedly controversial comment based upon extensive research and someone who knows little or nothing about it takes offense

my response is to suggest that you ignore my comment, just as you do many other things

or, if you have any interest in the subject, go do your homework
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
please excuse my interest in the motives and methods of totalitarian governments, aka major criminal gangs, aka epidemics of social diseases


and my quoted posts above come from Norman Pollack, author of “The Populist Response to Industrial America” (Harvard) and “The Just Polity” (Illinois), Guggenheim Fellow, and professor of history emeritus, Michigan State University. His new book, 'Eichmann on the Potomac', will be published by CounterPunch/AK Press in the fall of 2013


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Tom, one conspiracy theory at a time please.

And Griffin? You're really going to dredge up the laetrile nonsense? Beard, Harris, and Krebs! Oh My! Complete and utter quackery.

Norman Pollack, while a bit of a drama queen and given to occasional fits of hysteria, is certainly a much, much better reference in this instance.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Ron, sometimes I can't escape the feeling that Nevada must have small designated 'Tribal Areas' similar to Pakistan, but for the terminally clueless.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
it's all ok


i'm sure the Rockefellers, Morgans, Carnegies, Rothchilds...all have your best interests at heart


not to worry


based upon my years as a project manager at Booz Allen Hamilton


just do as you are told
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Tom, if you want to have a proper definition of totalitarianism, start by mentioning Hannah Arendt...otherwise you're pretty much just blowing smoke.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
i am more of a wilderness guy, and sad for the loss of wilderness

some people love the cities and there are many wonderful things about cities

the loss of a city is a great loss to all of us

and the cities are full of wonderful people, even if not all their citizens are quite so wonderful

we don't have a population problem, we have a management problem

genocide, war, enslavement, etc are not solutions

these are symptoms of bad management
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
these are symptoms of bad management


By neo-cons and neo-Marxists. We need a good Libertarian to run things for a while.

As for Snowden? Too much ambiguity, not enough details yet. Seems to me like a hack though. An agent for for people who do not like us.

Too early to tell. Wouldn't be surprised if his next car speeded up inexplicably and crashed into a ball of flames....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
i am prepared to believe that four-star general Keith Alexander is sincere in his attempts to manage NSA activities properly according to his level of understanding of reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OL5Fa8EZTEA#at=392


however US foreign policy is doing a great job of creating enemies

i prefer Abraham Lincolns quote about how to handle your enemies...turn them into your friends...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 25, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
i don't have a security clearance and never wanted one

i don't like being boxed into a compartment... professionally i work as a broad area innovator, coordinator and concept catalyst

that's partly why i left BAH after many years rather than move into that arena

one of my friends and colleagues who doesn't feel constrained that way, was able to leverage my model-based systems concepts to become a senior VP at BAH...he is welcome

i could have accepted the invitation...but wouldn't be chatting with you

i have also avoided signing non-disclosure documents...at several major corporations and government agencies, including DoD, DOE, DOJ, DOI, etc

if someone wants to entrust me with information, it should be because they trust me, not because i signed some document

if i don't want to talk about something, it is because of my judgement that the information would be harmful, and i am trying to not be harmful to people or the hopes for civilization

i like to be able to speak openly on an open forum like this, according to my own best judgement, not constrained by some legal document
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:01am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

Reactions to Snowden's disclosures among members of Congress were varied.

Representative Thomas Massie (R-KY) said: "Whether or not this program was authorized by Congress, it seems to me that this is an unconstitutional activity ... Which would make it illegal, and he should have some kind of immunity.”[84] Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX) said: "If it is the case that the federal government is seizing millions of personal records about law-abiding citizens, and if it is the case that there are minimal restrictions on accessing or reviewing those records, then I think Mr. Snowden has done a considerable public service by bringing it to light."[85]

Speaker of the House of Representatives John Boehner called Snowden "a 'traitor' who has put Americans at risk."[86] Many in Congress joined Boehner[87] in calling for Snowden's arrest, such as Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), chair of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Senator;[88] Senator Bob Menendez (D-NJ), chair of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations; House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA);[89] Representative Mike Rogers (R-MI), chair of the House Intelligence Committee;[90] and Representative Peter King, former chair of the House Homeland Security Committee;[91] among others.[84][92][93][94][95][96]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:16am PT
Whistleblower community

Daniel Ellsberg, the whistleblower and leaker of the top-secret Pentagon Papers in 1971, stated in an interview with CNN that he thought Snowden had done an "incalculable" service to his country and that his leaks might prevent America from becoming a surveillance state. He said Snowden had acted with the same sort of courage and patriotism as a soldier in battle.[146] In an op-ed the following morning, Ellsberg added that "there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that includes the Pentagon Papers, for which I was responsible 40 years ago."[147] Ray McGovern, a retired CIA officer who presented White House intelligence briefs for multiple presidents, said he agreed with Ellsberg in an interview where he also said "this time today I'm feeling much more hopeful for our democracy that I was feeling this time yesterday."[148]

William Binney, a whistleblower who, like Snowden, disclosed details of the NSA's mass surveillance activities, said that Snowden had "performed a really great public service to begin with by exposing these programs and making the government in a sense publicly accountable for what they're doing." However, after Snowden began leaking allegations that the US was "hacking into China," Binney felt, "he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."[149]

Thomas Drake, former senior executive of NSA and whistle blower as well, said that he feels "extraordinary kinship" with Snowden. "I actually salute him, given my experience over many, many years both inside and outside the system. Remember, I saw what he saw. I want to re-emphasize that. What he did was a magnificent act of civil disobedience. He's exposing the inner workings of the surveillance state. And it's in the public interest. It truly is."[150]

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange praised Snowden, calling him a "hero" who has exposed "one of the most serious events of the decade – the creeping formulation of a mass surveillance state."[151] After charges against Snowden were revealed, Assange released a statement that asked people to "step forward and stand with" Snowden.[152]
See also
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:05am PT
Representative Thomas Massie (R-KY) said: "Whether or not this program was authorized by Congress, it seems to me that this is an unconstitutional activity..."

Consider for a moment that this idiot was actually voted into office.

Curt
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:18am PT
If you think the NSA is collecting all the communications for security of US citizens, boy do they have you snowed.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:22am PT
Only really dumb terrorists would use Facebook, Skype and Gmail.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:37am PT
You know, I work with law enforcement agencies, and it is surprising how much stuff criminals post on Facebook and the like. Astonishing, actually (then again, think about how much stupid sh#t is posted here). Sure, brainy terrorists with a modicum of impulse control will avoid it, but think about how many terrorists are kids . Wouldn't surprise me at all to learn they are openly boasting about their activities online.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:26am PT
Riley, don't buy that "kill the messenger" crap.

If Snowden can steal that level of information, there really IS something wrong with US "intelligence". We need whistle blowers like that.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:56am PT
there are some very basic issues here as to how a society is managed and how a viable and sustainable civilization can be created

a civilization is based upon trust

i have long maintained that the truth eventually comes out, in spite of any efforts to conceal it, and often because of such efforts

most important classical international intelligence has come from commonly available sources, newspapers, magazines, street rumors etc.

most high security material eventually leaks into those sources

not James Bond type activities

major secrets always leak at the fringes, and analysis of the fringes points to the core of the secret

you just need to read a lot

the internet just expedites that process

the standard handling of leaks has been to spread vast amounts of similar, but patently false information through controlled media

you might know that something important has leaked, but which of the many false stories hides the truth

any society based upon deceit, lies, disinformation, violent acts upon citizens and neighbors...can not long persist...

there is no need for a revolution, as a dishonest society will collapse under the weight of bad actions

on the contrary, the collapse of a society is disastrous for everyone: good or bad or just nearby

the greater the differential between the rich and the poor, the less stable is the society

it is actually very important to try and hold the collapsing society together long enough to grow a more viable replacement...

based upon mutual respect and support, kindness, shunning greed and power mongering...

money is just a scam...we don't really need it any more...

there is no real scarcity, just a system that generates false scarcity and false wants in order to create and maintain monopolized control

3D printing of anything you need will soon change society as much or more than the internet

and even if we maintain a medium of trusted exchange, there is no need for banks, as anyone can already do trusted transactions over the internet...just like the banks already do under monopoly control...

and we most certainly don't need the current fractional reserve banking system trapping everyone in credit default swaps and unavoidable inflation

this archaic society based upon fear and lies and cheating is obsolete

let's move on...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:06am PT
i don't know the extent of what Snowdon has released, so can't quite judge the wisdom of his actions...

but the trade-off between intrusive intelligence and false security is very dangerous and begging for abuse by senior management

i know there are lots of people out there who would love to harm us the minute there is any opportunity, even in our own country... apparently especially in our own country...whether from desperation or revenge or greed or lust for power

to walk around thinking otherwise is just naive

there is tremendous temptation to run around dropping bombs on people and expecting that to solve problems

that may be fun for a while and gives a false sense of accomplishment

but the negative consequences of tearing up a society extend for generations into the future and benefit no one

so that just exacerbates problems, increasing the already too many people that hate us

our managers have to find alternatives to violent solutions

perhaps it is too late to save ourselves, but i don't want to encourage that line of thought...fear is like a prayer for what you don't want to happen

our society is cheating its citizens with artificially contrived monopolies on all the means of survival, making it very a hard to justify any holier-than-thou attitude relative to other countries

i think our central managers realize they have gone too far, but the momentum of old habits is hard to change

these monopolies are sitting on solutions that could completely change the nature of the game...but these are not solutions that can be monopolized

secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods

the elite seem to desperately fantasize that controlling all the money and power will save them during social collapse

i do not think that will work out well for them...

bringing social pressure requiring our bosses forgo their greed and face up to fair and equitable solutions might be the only thing that can save us at this point

it is not clear that the public has either the wisdom or the will to so

now would be a good time to wake up
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 26, 2013 - 09:20am PT
Well spoken Tom.

I don't know what the solution is. Some will say that at the root, voters can choose differently. However, the last 20 years has seen this idea that we need everyone inside the tent voting no matter how ill informed and ignorant they are, and it's against the law to try and weed out the dumbasses.

I was listening yesterday to a guy who was talking to a group of 20 somethings...Obama voters, who did not know who Hillary Clinton was. These people vote. (not categorizing 20 somethings as all dumbasses or all Obama voters either) I guess we get what we get.
WBraun

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 10:16am PT
Best post in the whole thread Tom.

I'm so sick of hearing all the bullsh!t garbage about this.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
I guess we get what we get.

We probably get what we deserve.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Snowden has indeed altered U.S.-China relations, by giving China new strength on an issue of which it was struggling to gain any leverage at all. And that—more than any single secret—may be the greatest legacy of Snowden’s visit to Hong Kong.

I doubt the Chinese government has really learned anything new. He named one of the Chinese universities hacked by the NSA, big deal. What he did do was create a political scandal, landing there like a hot potato and causing the Hong Kong government extreme anxiety. The Chinese read the extradition request and ask the US to clarify some details. Whatever that was about we do not know. While the ball is in the State Dept's court (they will resist admitting this to the death), Snowden escapes. I don't see any evidence of him working with the Chinese government, and now he left there because he finallly realized they would extradite him once the Americans addressed their concerns. Did someone tip him off? Who knows, but that's not espionage. It should not be a crime to create a political scandal. Many former CIA agents have come out against the Agency although they are limited in what they can talk about. For example, Ralph McGeHee, a former CIA agent who wrote a book about war crimes in the Vietnam war, but apparently stayed within the lines of what he could disclose and did not get into trouble. If you look at the actual info that Snowden disclosed, it's not a lot, particularly about hacking in China, which is the only thing that's even related to any foreign country. Everything else he disclosed was about illegal spying on Americans. Yet most Americans probably want to crucify him for it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
the elite seem to desperately fantasize that controlling all the money and power will save them during social collapse

That happened a long time ago.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
...secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods...

Well, that's a generalization that can never be proven one way or the other. Either way, this is certainly nothing new--as Winston Churchill said:

"The truth is to be protected by a bodyguard of lies."

Curt
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
How do secrets work? Don't they seem to work through manipulation and creating advantages over others?

As a teacher of business and corporate strategy, I've worked in / for various organizations that believed that their strategies, their capabilities, their assets should be kept secret. That never made sense to me. How does one get people in organizations aligned and working for the same objectives? How do stakeholders know who they're dealing with, and what's really going on? How do competitors come to know what they should be doing and how? It's my observation that too often competitors come head-to-head against one another, leading to zero-sum games. In those situations, there must be a winner and losers.

Experimental research has shown repeatedly that the best strategy in all instances is what is known as tit-for-tat. Do what the other guy does (no more, but no less), and in the long run, tit-for-tat leads to trust, credibility, and mutually beneficial interdependent actions. In time, people learn that deception, guile, and opportunism leads to dysfunctional and negative outcomes.

Transparency: be honest, up-front; put your cards on the table.

I might think that the extent that "competitors" know what our strategies are, the more they will avoid being direct competitors and finally seek out better ecological (eco-system-like) positions. Knowing that the U.S. has close tabs on worldwide internet communication will either encourage less communication or different means of communication--the latter which could then be focused on. Once an enemy has few places to go (or it gets too hard), they might be encouraged to negotiate to mutually beneficial positions.

On the other hand, if you want to stick it to your enemies, if you must be a winner at all costs, then by all means, keep secrets. Make the other guy suffer. Of course, this tends to encourage never-ending escalations and conflicts. It emphasizes pain and suffering of the other guy over learning to live with one another.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
All in all, the odds are slim Snowden has much of value beyond embarrassing program documentation and the primary damage he's doing is to our [self] image of the U.S. as a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus.

The real damage is that we pretend to be "a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus." but we are increasingly not. Because of that, Snowden did THIS country's people a favor. Maybe we can stem the tide before we ARE a China.

Damaging a false self image is a good thing. The rest of the world already knows we're two faced, but we don't get it here yet

Peace

Karl
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
...we are not safe despite the Patriot Act being in effect and reducing our civil liberties, and we are not safe despite the gross violation of our civil liberties by the government and the NSA spying on us by collecting (for at least seven years) every single electronic communication of every US citizen and storing it in perpetuity.

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.

Oh really?

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-18/world/40043402_1_plots-alexander-national-security-agency

Curt
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
What Snowden did was highly illegal.

But what the NSA is doing is highly unconstitutional.

WBraun

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
What Snowden did was highly illegal.


Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Man made laws are relative.

The laws of the Universe are not under the jurisdiction of stupid political monkey men playing God ......
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Really.

Well, it would appear that some suspension of reality is required to hold that opinion. Additionally, there is absolutely no proof in either of the links you provide above that the NSA activity is unconstitutional.

Curt
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
jghedge & Curt - How do you interpret US v. Warshak to apply to this situation?
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
"The content of your emails, and the content of your phone conversations, are subject to the 4th amendment, as per the SC"

And do you think that the NSA may be engaged in reading - and when I say reading, I mean using computers to analyze - the contents of emails without warrants?

The other option is that they are merely archiving them for future use which seems highly improbable to me because it's not what "big data" is about. And the NSA and CIA are clearly interested in big data.

I understand that this is supposition, but due to the classified nature of the topic, that is what we are left with.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
A wanted man without a passport, Snowden could join ranks of unwitting airport denizens

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/26/wanted-man-without-passport-snowden-could-join-ranks-unwitting-airport-denizens/#ixzz2XLoHeFUt


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
so lets say the NSA programs have saved american lives. what was the cost per life saved?

compare that to all teh other stuff that kills people that we could be spending money on and you can get a cost per benefit and then debate intelligently rather than emotionally about cost of security versus lets say, cost of health care or even food and cost of pollution prevention.

instead the government has decided for you. don't you feel better now? i dont.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
On the contrary, I'd suggest that the opposite is true: some suspension of reality is required to believe that because all US citizens are being spied on that as consequence you are now safe.

My suspension of reality comment was in reply to this statement you made:

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.

Clearly, with 50 terror plots averted, your "for nothing" statement does require a suspension of reality.

Curt

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
http://dietagespresse.com/snowden-in-wien-gelandet-vertraut-in-tragheit-der-justiz/

"I don't have the time to translate this article from Die Tagespresse, an Viennese newspaper, but they are reporting that Snowden arrived on the first Austrian Airlines flight from Moscow this morning, and has asked for political asylum. No one else is reporting this -- yet. The headline reads: Snowden has landed in Vienna: trusts the "sluggishness" of (Austrian) justice." Quotes from Austrian immigration officers, etc."
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Telcos/ISPs do not have the ability to detain you, arrest you, tax you, deport you, execute you. Telcos do not regulate commerce, your license to practice your trade, the safety of your food etc. There are reasons to have different standards. Further, I freely enter into a contractual agreement with my provider. They have a privacy policy, and if they are in violation of that privacy policy I can seek justice through the courts.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Sometimes I can't believe I'm saying this, but listen to Hedge, Curt and Norton. You may disagree with their interpretation, but the SCOTUS has consistently adopted it.

The Fourth Amendment protects areas where we have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The courts have consistently held that business records, such as how many phone calls a person makes and to whom, are business records with no reasonable expectation of privacy.

Traffic analysis existed before WWII. The sorts of data we know (as opposed to speculate)that NSA collected is similar to that obtained in a police stake-out, noting who enters and leaves where and when. That sort of thing has never been held to constitute a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.

While recent revelations cause some of us to mistrust governmental use of information, the NSA data collection that's been "exposed" by Snowden is neither illegal nor unconstitutional. Frankly, I would have been disappointed in the NSA had it been been pursuing these generally-accepted law enforcement and intelligence opportunities.

John
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
I saw Edward Snowden down at the 7-11 buying a Slushie and a couple of Little Debbie Zebra Cakes. Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, and Gwyneth Paltrow were waiting in the pickup giggling like a bunch of teenagers. Fukkin epic.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
snowden needs a 308 round through his noggin

Ron Anderson, if you are really wise enough to know that this is a viable solution to the world's social political problems, then perhaps I should sign up to help you prove the concept.

However Snowden is probably not going to wander within range of your rifle.

But I can drive over there to your place this afternoon, and we can go out to the range together.

I'll take a walk downrange, and you can try out your proposed solution on my head instead.

If the experiment pans out well, then that's just wonderful and generates new hope for the world.

Then you can make a press release statement to the National Press Club on having verified a simple solution to the world's social political problems.

You'll become as famous as Gandhi or Mandela or the Dalai Lama or even Buddha!
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
The NSA surveillance also violates the first amendment to the US constitution as well as provisions of the Patriot Act.

Sorry, but Congress and the Supreme Court both disagree with you.

Curt
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Preface:

 Senior management
 Our managers
 Central managers
 The elite
 Our bosses

Crikey Tom - get a f*#king grip and drop the plantation mentality...



Tom: but the trade-off between intrusive intelligence and false security is very dangerous and begging for abuse by senior management

These are three deeply enmeshed issues poorly characterized by your statement. "Intrusive intelligence" and "false security" for a starters.

I mean, "Intrusive intelligence"? Is there any other kind? What are you suggesting here? 'Benign intelligence', 'inconsequential intelligence', 'billboard intelligence', or perhaps 'mail-in cereal-box-top intelligence'?

Intelligence, regardless of sourcing, should first and foremost be weighed by the outcomes associated with possessing it - the effectiveness of the intelligence. So far, our track record on following through on clear, actionable intelligence in 9/11, Boston and other incidents has been abysmal for a variety of reasons, but primarily forms of xenophobic or hierarchical chauvinism - i.e. "not sourced here" (9/11 and Boston) or "you don't have enough organizational standing for me to pay attention to you regardless of what you may know" (9/11).

Point being, that [likely] outcome effectiveness is the key criteria that should be weighed in decisions on sourcing intelligence and thus drive any trade-offs between privacy and security. Where we fail as a nation in all this is when those trade-offs and decisions are taken without due transparency and oversight.

"False security" in you statement is all but meaningless, and for all the wrong reasons. In fact, when strung together, all three phrases: "intrusive intelligence", "false security", and "senior management" (the latter in particular) are so telling of your ridiculous and contrived conspiracy addictions as to beg for you to just frigging come out from behind all your silly gauze and tell us what you really think in plain English. Christ, the statement as a whole might as well be straight out of a Scientology phrase book.

i know there are lots of people out there who would love to harm us the minute there is any opportunity, even in our own country... apparently especially in our own country...whether from desperation or revenge or greed or lust for power

to walk around thinking otherwise is just naive

there is tremendous temptation to run around dropping bombs on people and expecting that to solve problems

that may be fun for a while and gives a false sense of accomplishment

but the negative consequences of tearing up a society extend for generations into the future and benefit no one

so that just exacerbates problems, increasing the already too many people that hate us

Here you manage to recognize the obvious and we agree.

our managers have to find alternatives to violent solutions

Again, the painful connotations and subtext are so steeped in a resigned victim's mentality and overarching conspiratorial paranoia as to be utter nonsense and sad from the get go.

perhaps it is too late to save ourselves, but i don't want to encourage that line of thought...fear is like a prayer for what you don't want to happen

Melodramatic.

our society is cheating its citizens with artificially contrived monopolies on all the means of survival, making it very a hard to justify any holier-than-thou attitude relative to other countries

i think our central managers realize they have gone too far, but the momentum of old habits is hard to change

these monopolies are sitting on solutions that could completely change the nature of the game...but these are not solutions that can be monopolized

Again, complete and utter rubbish. And "Central managers" - I'm guessing these must be reptilian or fallen angels who settled the Moon and Mars in the latter half of the 19th century.

And why not be clear and add some actual substance to this post - exactly what are these monopolization-resistant 'solutions'? You'll forgive me if, in the face of basic human nature and US / world population stats being what they are, I find myself highly skeptical of that sadly null assertion.

secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods

As if this is somehow new to the human condition that was absent in Babylonian and Roman times?

the elite seem to desperately fantasize that controlling all the money and power will save them during social collapse

bringing social pressure requiring our bosses forgo their greed and face up to fair and equitable solutions might be the only thing that can save us at this point

The right sentiment, yet so tainted with stilted conspiratorial bullshit as to completely overshadow the basic message.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
I have small faith in opinions of those institutions as presently arrayed.

A lot of tax protesters have a similar lack of faith in income tax laws. They always end up worse for those opinions.

John
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
It's also insightful to witness the apparent state of confusion that congress exists in regarding the realties of these programs.

I actually agree with that. Quite a few members of Congress seem to have no idea what was contained in the bills that they themselves passed.

Curt
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
healyje, your obsessive references to 'conspiracy theories' is quite boring


when you issue a bunch of noise about something, you just seem to verify that it's too close for comfort


so thanks for the complements


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
last night on cnn they interviewed an ex cia and fbi employee who was honest. dont know that he was a spy. when asked if teh US would hand over to say russia, a potential defector with the type of high level intel that snowden possesses the guy said no way. at least not until we got the hard drives, all teh data and had interviewed him.

so there may be honest ex spies.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 26, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
Tom: healyje, your obsessive references to 'conspiracy theories' is quite boring

My obsessions? Dude, at the very least do try to own your sh#t. Your own words clearly belie the one of us who is obsessed.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
yueah,, and hows that worked for us?


ill answer that: it HASNT.

Glad we see that Rong find the US to be the worst country in the world to live in.

Hope to see your immigration papers, soon.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Snowden escapes. I don't see any evidence of him working with the Chinese government

And what would you expect to see? Chinese officials explaining how they covertly lifted information from him?

In China, what happens to operatives who do what they shouldn't is that they are gutted, their children and spouse are gutted, their grandchildren are gutted.

They don't have whistleblowers residing in China. Virtually none outside of China.

Quit being childish.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
thanks rsin.

its not easy to explain something to jhedge.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 26, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Hopefully this thread and similar public dialogues will help not just dispel but shatter the notion that liberals are somehow automatically FOR democracy and personal freedom and conservatives are automatically against it.

This whole situation has been very eye-opening for me on a variety of issues. DMT points out one of the things about this that has been most surprising. Although I could never prove it, I feel certain that many people posting to this thread would change their position 180 degrees if there was a Republican administration in the White House.
WBraun

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Sorry, but Congress and the Supreme Court both disagree with you.

Congress and the Supreme Court both are now stupid monkey men with no brains just creating hell on earth ......

Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:25am PT
Congress and the Supreme Court both are now stupid monkey men with no brains just creating hell on earth......

Yeah, but they're pretty much all we've got.

Curt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 27, 2013 - 03:04am PT
NO Liberal is For the NSA surveillance program. We are just pragmatic to realize that you can't fight what has been made law by the Republicans after 911. Hopefully, as the current Admin says, these programs will have Stiff oversight. Which is the exact opposite of what most people are saying.

The obvious problem is that there is no acceptable position for a liberal to take--and the wingnuts know it. Come out against collecting communications metadata and the next time terrorists do strike, the Teabaggers will accuse the administration of doing too little to protect American lives (ala Benghazi) and if we come out in favor of collecting metadata, then liberals are somehow subverting the constitution and trampling on individual rights.

Curt
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2013 - 05:30am PT
lots of americans are inclined to believe that if the government were drown in the bathtub, walmart pepboys and farmer brothers would given them a fairer shake...

As incredibly painful as the diction is (or lack thereof), this is still one of the better quotes in the thread. It well illustrates the fact smaller doesn't necessarily equate to better government in the same way less privacy doesn't necessarily equate to better security.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 27, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/27/us-usa-security-ecuador-idUSBRE95Q0L820130627

(Reuters) - Ecuador's leftist government thumbed its nose at Washington on Thursday by renouncing U.S. trade benefits and offering to pay for human rights training in America in response to pressure over asylum for former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

The angry response threatens a showdown between the two nations over Snowden, and may burnish President Rafael Correa's credentials to be the continent's principal challenger of U.S. power after the death of Venezuelan socialist leader Hugo Chavez.

"Ecuador will not accept pressures or threats from anyone, and it does not traffic in its values or allow them to be subjugated to mercantile interests," government spokesman Fernando Alvarado said at a news conference.

In a cheeky jab at the U.S. spying program that Snowden unveiled through leaks to the media, the South American nation offered $23 million per year to finance human rights training.

The funding would be destined to help "avoid violations of privacy, torture and other actions that are denigrating to humanity," Alvarado said. He said the amount was the equivalent of what Ecuador gained each year from the trade benefits.

"Ecuador gives up, unilaterally and irrevocably, the said customs benefits," he said.

An influential U.S. senator on Wednesday said he would seek to end those benefits if Ecuador gave Snowden asylum.

Snowden, 30, is believed to be at Moscow's international airport and seeking safe passage to Ecuador.

The Andean nation's government denies reports that it provided a travel document to the former National Security Agency contractor, whose U.S. passport has been revoked.

The government has not been able to process his asylum request because he is not on Ecuadorean territory, another government official said.

Never shy of taking on the West, the pugnacious Correa last year granted asylum to WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange to help him avoid extradition from Great Britain to Sweden, where he is wanted for questioning over sexual assault accusations.

The 50-year-old U.S.-trained economist won a landslide re-election in February on generous state spending to improve infrastructure and health services, and his Alianza Pais party holds a majority in the legislature.

Ecuadorean officials said Washington was unfairly using the Andean Trade Promotion and Drug Eradication Act, which provides customs benefits in exchange for efforts to fight the drug trade, as a political weapon.

The program was set to expire at the end of this month.

An OPEC nation of 15 million people, Ecuador exported $5.4 billion worth of oil, $166 million of cut flowers, $122 million of fruits and vegetables and $80 million of tuna to the United States under the Andean trade program in 2012.

Termination of the benefits could hurt the cut flower industry, which has blossomed under the program and employs more than 100,000 workers, many of them women.

Critics of Correa say Ecuador's embrace of Assange - and now possibly Snowden - is hypocritical given what they say is his authoritarian style and suppression of media at home.

Supporters of Correa say he has simply taken on media and business elites who were trying to erode what the president calls his "Citizens' Revolution."

(Writing by Brian Ellsworth and Andrew Cawthorne; Editing by Doina Chiacu)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 27, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
In a cheeky jab at the U.S. spying program that Snowden unveiled through leaks to the media, the South American nation offered $23 million per year to finance human rights training.

The funding would be destined to help "avoid violations of privacy, torture and other actions that are denigrating to humanity," Alvarado said. He said the amount was the equivalent of what Ecuador gained each year from the trade benefits.

but according to some of the libtards on this site its still all W's fault.

lol

Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 27, 2013 - 01:59pm PT
but according to some of the libtards on this site its still all W's fault.

Yeah, no sense blaming the guy who put the spying program in place. I mean, what kind of sense would that make?

Curt
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
but according to some of the libtards on this site its still all W's fault.

Well, given it's been explained ad nauseum in detail why that's the case you are certainly free to your delusions to the contrary.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
Although I could never prove it, I feel certain that many people posting to this thread would change their position 180 degrees if there was a Republican administration in the White House.

I think many of the posts on this thread prove that point, but, to their credit, Joe Hedge, Curt and Norton have, rather courageously for this site, taken a consistent position on this issue irrespective of the party affiliation of Congress or the President.

John
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Although I could never prove it, I feel certain that many people posting to this thread would change their position 180 degrees if there was a Republican administration in the White House.

I highly doubt that. [edited: though I'd agree if you just said a white man in the white house. ]

Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
I think it's certainly true. Republicans who are now bashing the Obama administration over this NSA data collection wouldn't be saying a damn thing about it if Romney was our president--except for fully supporting it, of course.

Curt
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 27, 2013 - 02:47pm PT
I think it's certainly true. Republicans who are now bashing the Obama administration over this NSA data collection wouldn't be saying a damn thing about it if Romney was our president--except for fully supporting it, of course.

Sad to say, I think you're right, Curt. Still, it's nice to be on your side of an issue for once.

John
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 27, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
i give heat where it is due, irrespective of who is in da house.

more heat is due to obama though for the fals hope and false freedoms that he campainged upon. throw on his supporters (joe) inability to deal with responsibility of the prez office and you have zero credibility.

trying to get hedge or healy to learn something new is like trying to stick an 8 track into a cd slot.....their minds are too narros to comprehend.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 27, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
throw on his supporters (joe) inability to deal with responsibility of the prez office and you have zero credibility.

Maybe if you had a remote clue as to what the responsibilities and powers of the three branches of government were you'd actually be able to make a case, but as it is...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 27, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
"The Obama administration for more than two years permitted the National Security Agency to continue collecting vast amounts of records detailing the email and internet usage of Americans, according to secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

The documents indicate that under the program, launched in 2001, a federal judge sitting on the secret surveillance panel called the Fisa court would approve a bulk collection order for internet metadata "every 90 days". A senior administration official confirmed the program, stating that it ended in 2011.

The collection of these records began under the Bush administration's wide-ranging warrantless surveillance program, collectively known by the NSA codename Stellar Wind.

According to a top-secret draft report by the NSA's inspector general – published for the first time today by the Guardian – the agency began "collection of bulk internet metadata" involving "communications with at least one communicant outside the United States or for which no communicant was known to be a citizen of the United States".

Eventually, the NSA gained authority to "analyze communications metadata associated with United States persons and persons believed to be in the United States", according to a 2007 Justice Department memo, which is marked secret."

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/27/nsa-data-mining-authorised-obama
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 27, 2013 - 05:39pm PT

This is President Obama's spy program. It WAS President Bush's.

exactly.

arguing otherwise is pathetic. it's like blaming supertopo when you get off route.
WBraun

climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
Stupid Americans follow the right hand photo.

WBraun

climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Yeah

Obama can't do sh!t about NSA.

The snowden fiasco is the CIA is using snowden to get back at NSA.

It's a secret internal war between the two intelligent agencies.

No one knows this sh!t except .......
crøtch

climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor in her concurring opinion on US vs. Jones, 2012.

More fundamentally, it may be necessary to reconsider the premise that an
individual has no reasonable expectation of privacy in information
voluntarily disclosed to third parties. This approach is ill suited to the
digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about
themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks.
People disclose the phone numbers that they dial or text to their cellular
providers; the URLs that they visit and the e-mail addresses with which
they correspond to their Internet service providers; and the books,
groceries, and medications they purchase to online retailers. Perhaps, as
JUSTICE ALITO notes, some people may find the “tradeoff” of privacy
for convenience “worthwhile,” or come to accept this “diminution of
privacy” as “inevitable,” and perhaps not. I for one doubt that people
would accept without complaint the warrantless disclosure to the
Government of a list of every Web site they had visited in the last week, or
month, or year. But whatever the societal expectations, they can attain
constitutionally protected status only if our Fourth Amendment
jurisprudence ceases to treat secrecy as a prerequisite for privacy. I would
not assume that all information voluntarily disclosed to some member of
the public for a limited purpose is, for that reason alone, disentitled to
Fourth Amendment protection.
crøtch

climber
Jun 27, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
I don't think that we have heard the last word on the privacy of email contents stored on the cloud.

An interesting bill submitted by Rand Paul just prior to Snowden's leaks
http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/1037/text

and a modern review of privacy and the courts
http://www.nyls.edu/user_files/1/3/4/30/59/65/68/Cap12Collins.pdf

Both are worthy of your time.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Excellent Sotomayor quote, thx.


How about this:

Global Backlash After Leaks Reveal Hypocrisy of US Spying

Three weeks since news broke that the National Security Administration is conducting a massive international surveillance operation, the US corporate media is still largely consumed by the witch-hunt for NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden and smear campaigns against Snowden and Guardian journalist Glenn Greenwald, to whom Snowden revealed the leaked documents.

However, the international community has reacted to the disclosures with alarm. Revelations that the NSA has been tapping the phone and internet communications of foreign individuals and governments has spurred world leaders to denounce the global superpower as a 'hypocrite' and, in a number of instances, offer asylum or assistance to Snowden.

...

This important and information-filled article also includes a nice list of the leaked documents published so far. Take a look:

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/06/27-7
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
^^^ Maybe, but I fully support his bill.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
Stossel hates these things more than NSA surveillance. I'm more worked up over surreptitious surveillance by an overreaching overbearing government than most of those.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
There is no free lunch per Milton Freidman. 10 sec in. but the entire 1 min rant is apropo for the subject de jour. Limited government is important.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Rsin said:
"and stossel is nearly the biggest piece of evil sh#t that wall street has ever let suck its dick"
Is Friedman the 2nd biggest piece of crap that ever let wall street lick his....whatever? Or is that just anyone who disagrees with you or is that just your fall back position when you don't have the intellectual capacity to argue against a well reasoned and informed argument?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:30pm PT
Never mind. I know the answer.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
Unhinged idealizes a fascist police state with a disarmed and subservient populace.


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 27, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Snowdon is the highest mountain in Wales, at an altitude of 1,085 metres (3,560 ft) above sea level, and the highest point in the British Isles outside Scotland
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:05am PT
...the urgent need to protect our major population centers from terrorist attack...

Some of what Snowden is leaking has nothing to do with "protect".

A leaked executive order from President Obama shows the administration asked intelligence agencies to draw up a list of potential offensive cyberattack targets around the world. The order, which suggests targeting “systems, processes and infrastructure” states that such offensive hacking operations “can offer unique and unconventional capabilities to advance U.S. national objectives around the world with little or no warning to the adversary or target and with potential effects ranging from subtle to severely damaging.” [...]

Great article k-man! - http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/06/27-7
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:07am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:11am PT
kunlun posted
Some of what Snowden is leaking has nothing to do with "protect".

I would be a little worried if we didn't have a list of potential cyberattack targets drawn up. I mean seriously, guys. We pay more than half a trillion dollars a year to fund our military, plus whatever goes directly into intel. Do you honestly believe we aren't preparing for things like this? Do you seriously think we don't have "what if" plans for Iran, China, Venezuela and god knows how many other countries? Do you expect the President to say "please don't prepare for anything because if it got leaked it would look bad?"
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:17am PT
Quick. Someone say something really racist.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:19am PT
we lived with another world power with atomics and icbms who KNEW we were planning to launch a first strike against them for decades!

we didnt cash in any of our rights and freedoms under that threat


we had a REAL and SUBSTANTIAL enemy,
and we let him pour rubles into underground printing presses and union organization and support of civil rights and american women getting to vote and indians getting a day in court after we violated the treaties we signed with them

we did all that

and now we got to close down freedom and the press because rogues with no nation or airforce or day jobs are the greatest threat we have ever faced???
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:25am PT
on of the most amazing things about our geo-political system is that here we have a small planet with about 6000 nukes that have been built at the expense of thoroughly contaminating the planet's life support system...

and many of those have escaped the control of any major nation and undoubtedly gotten into the hands of any number of crazies

yet we have not had a single nuclear weapons event in a population center since Hiroshima and Nagasaki

can anyone here venture a guess as to how that is possible?!

and just who wanted all those nukes and why, as they have no conceivable practical military purpose on a planet this size?!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:25am PT
Man there is a whole lot of crazy on Supertopo these days.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:54am PT
Is Israel spying on all its citizens?
They experience terrorism on a continuos basis.

Book a flight on El Al.

Curt
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
To hold an opinion you will need knowledge. Where will you get that knowledge from? Propaganda? Good luck with that.

Add up all the leaks and whistle blowers over the course of the decades stack them with the declassified files and allow yourself a peak behind the veil ... the only relevant information you will ever see. If you hope to hold a position of any relevance, you have the likes of Snowden to thank.

If you want to participate within a even marginally functional democracy, get on board.
If you want to help create the most militarized empire in the history of the world, then stick your head up your a$$ and try to live happily within your delusions.
-anon

I am passing on some of your posts to my Facebook page and some of my friends are signing on their agreement.

We may not have much of a chance to create a fair and ethical civilization within the evil chains tightening around us...but silence is no answer...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
...sitting here listening to the song of chain saws punctuated with great redwood trees falling in the forest below my house...and understanding this is just a local reflection of the destruction of our planet going on all around us...words like sadness are wholly inadequate...

That land was deeded to the Boy Scouts to preserve and protect the forest. The manager of the Boy Scout Camp tells me he is a 'forester' with an approved 'forest management plan'......such shameful terms in this context...cut the big trees and leave the understory as a fire hazard...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Care About the Environment? Beware, the NSA is Watching

by s.e. smith June 27, 2013 2:30 pm


Rising sea levels, super storms, and droughts, oh my! Everyone on Earth seems to think that climate change is the most significant threat to global security — except people in the United States. We’re so committed to burying our heads in the sand that our own government has chosen to focus not on the problems associated with climate change, but on environmentalists. That’s right. The people fighting to protect the environment are the ones viewed as the potential security risk.

As the NSA’s PRISM scandal has unfolded and released scores of documents that the government would just as soon rather hide under the rug, some important information about the handling of environmentalists has emerged. While activists have always suspected they’ve been unfairly profiled, and have noted on numerous occasions that they seem to attract more attention than actual domestic terrorists, the PRISM documents confirm that environmentalists and eco groups were singled out for surveillance and close monitoring, as if their activities posed a legitimate threat to national security. After all, that’s the defense the government has used in discussions of PRISM and other infringements on civil liberties, arguing that the privacy of some must be sacrificed for the safety of many. Meanwhile, right-wing groups have been allowed to engage in actual acts of domestic terror and incitements to violence without such scrutiny.

What gives? The PRISM documents reveal that the Pentagon was putting plans in place to deal with major civil unrest in the wake of disasters, including potential environmental disasters, but that it had a special focus on environmental protest and activism. Millions of dollars are spent annually on pursuing environmental groups, many of whom are harmless — unless, of course, you think lobbying the government to take action on environmental issues is somehow causing harm, or you believe that educating the public about climate change poses a risk to national security.

The environment itself can become a security risk, but the people pushing to protect it certainly aren’t. While their express goal is to focus on environmental health and the protection of the planet, many are also concerned about the stability of nations and states as well as other political actors, because with global unrest tends to come environmental abuses. For example, in the Balkans and Iraq, depleted uranium was left behind after bitter wars, one of which had a lot to do with oil resources and control. Environmentalists are well aware that climate change will cause unrest which could lead to political instability, and they’re trying to prevent these problems, not cause them.

Policy-wise, the government should be promoting environmental protection as a sound national security practice. And while the government needs to remain separate from private organizations and can’t support environmental groups, it certainly doesn’t need to persecute them, either. Redirecting the resources currently used to spy on environmental advocates to actual concrete environmental protection and policy would do far more for national security in the long term, but that would require the government to admit that its decades-long policy of harassing environmental activists was wrong.

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/care-about-the-environment-beware-the-nsa-is-watching.html#ixzz2XXBD74eu
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
Rafael Correa, President of Ecuador, addresses the U.S. and their choice to take in Edward Snowden: "Don't come lecturing us about liberty. You need a reality check. Don't act like a spoiled rude child. Here you will only find dignity and sovereignty. Here we haven't invaded anyone. Here we don't torture like in Guantanamo. Here we don't have drones killing alleged terrorist without any due trial, killing also the women and children of those supposed terrorists. So don't come lecturing us about life, law, dignity, or liberty. You don't have the moral right to do so."

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
From Dave Michael regarding the filibuster in TX which I missed but heard bits and pieces of here and there. It didn't pass with the after midnight vote taken, but will from my understanding, vote on it again either today or tomorrow (Friday). This will essentially close down every abortion clinic in the backward, oppressive state of TX.
Instead of the Lone Star State just refer to it as The Dumb Ass State,

Karsten School
Last night something very important happened down in Texas, something that if you weren't following as it happened, you're probably not going to hear the whole truth about. I was one of the people who was in the right place to watch, and so I'm now going to try to pass on the word as best I can. I'm tagging some of you at the bottom, people who I think should read this. Apologies for anyone who finds this disruptive.

The Texas senate voted yesterday on an bill that essentially would have closed nearly every abortion clinic in the state. To try to counter the bill (which was heavily supported by the Republican majority, senator Wendy Davis attempted a one-woman day-long filibuster, during which time she spoke on the subject while going without food, water, bathroom breaks or being allowed to sit down or even lean on her table for support. She lasted nearly eleven hours before being ruled off topic on a technicality. A second female senator then stepped up and tried to continue the filibuster by asking for salient points to be repeated to her, as she missed part of the session that day to attend her father's funeral.

But here's where things get interesting. With fifteen minutes before the midnight deadline, the lieutenant governor ordered the senate to proceed, and actually had the democrats' microphones cut off. The spectators in the assembly responded by cheering, chanting and generally causing a ruckus, in order to drown out attempts at a vote. The midnight deadline passed without a vote being taken, but the chair held a vote after midnight, as the spectators were forced out of the assembly. During all of this, there was no coverage on MSNBC, CNN or any other major news network, with the only coverage coming from a livestream set up by the Teas Tribune.

At 12:15, the Associated Press ran a story saying the bill had passed, which CBS picked up. This was based on a sole source, which the AP later admitted was a republican senator. Meanwhile in the chambers, the senators stood around, both sides confused if the vote had even happened, if they had even voted on the correct issue. The chair had left with the lieutenant governor without ending the session. The Tribune's feed was cut at 12:20 with 70,000 people watching. CNN at this point was talking about the deliciousness of muffins.

Outside in the halls of the senate building, thousands of people were packed wall to wall, chanting "shame, shame", while thousands more were outside. State police had formed a barricade around the entrance hall, and were making sporadic arrests (50 or so by night's end) and confiscating cameras. In the thick of it was a guy named Christopher Dido, who used his cell phone and a live stream to report on what was happening. He was the only journalist in America who was filming at the senate, with as many as 30,000 people watching the stream at one time, and over 200,000 viewers by night's end. He did this while the state police surrounded the protesters in the building, some of them with nightsticks drawn. The police at this time refused to let through food or water that people tried to send in, instead eating and drinking it themselves. They also barricaded access to vending machines and water fountains within the building, and were said to have blocked off access to the washrooms for at least a period of time. Meanwhile, journalists still inside the chambers tweeted out news updates, which were disseminated and retweeted by people like Matt Fraction, Felicia Day and Will Wheaton, reaching an audience that would otherwise have probably not seen or heard what happened next.

The senate was recalled 90 minutes after its midnight end point, to determine whether or not the vote was valid- behind closed doors with no microphones, and only the Senate's own muted camera. Then something disturbing happened. The senate website carries the official record of the caucus. It listed the vote as happening past midnight, on June 26th. Until suddenly it didn't. The date was quietly manually changed to 6/25, the minutes altered to say the vote happened at 11:59, despite almost 200,000 people watching live who saw differently. Suddenly twitter and other social media sites blew up with before-and-after screen shots. Inside the closed sessions, the democrats were made aware of the alterations and brought them up- without social media, almost no one would have known, and never in time. Ultimately, based on the fraudulent alterations, the GOP conceded defeat, admitting the vote had taken place at 12:03, and declaring the bill to be dead. When this happened, the AP and CBS said the vote was overturned, never admitting to shoddy journalism. CNN ignored the story until this morning, because muffins take priority.

Yesterday, I witnessed women's rights under fire, a crippled legal system that didn't represent its people, a corrupt government body attempting to commit a crime in front of hundreds of thousands of witnesses, and the complete failure of the main stream media. I also witnessed a woman performing a nearly superhuman act to do what was right, the power of the people making themselves heard both in person and online, and the extraordinary value of one young man with a cellphone making sure people saw and heard the truth about what was going on.

Anyone reading the papers or watching network news today won't get the full story. Hopefully enough people saw it unfold live, that the lessons from last night won't be forgotten.
WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
The facts", though, involve cabinet-level terrorist counter-intel, which you'll never get access to, nor should you.


Neither do you.

So grow up and move to North Korea ......
WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
strong opinion on something you admit you know nothing about,

I never admitted to know nothing.

You are the one admitting you know nothing and bullying your stupid know nothing projection onto everyone else that disagrees with you.

You're losing it dude ......

Time for you to move to North Korea Joe

WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Why aren't they trying to nail him on this?

Obviously because you know nothing.

But if I told you why you still wouldn't understand it.

Why is that?

Because you KNOW nothing Joe.

You're just a stupid talking head shill from the mainstream.

Time for you to move to North Korea Joe.

It's time .....

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
Tom, that's an amazing story you quoted, although not sure this is the right thread. Still, this is worth a repeat:


Yesterday, I witnessed women's rights under fire, a crippled legal system that didn't represent its people, a corrupt government body attempting to commit a crime in front of hundreds of thousands of witnesses, and the complete failure of the main stream media. I also witnessed a woman performing a nearly superhuman act to do what was right, the power of the people making themselves heard both in person and online, and the extraordinary value of one young man with a cellphone making sure people saw and heard the truth about what was going on.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
The very people you'd think would be all over this, both for constitutional and partisan reasons, are silent. No repub witch-hunt for something that people are hysterically claiming is subverting the constitution at a fundamental level.

Surely those who are critical of NSA data mining think it's a more important issue than Benghazi or the IRS, right? Then where are the investigations?

Well, my guess is that they (Congress) in no way want to open that can of worms. Any scrutiny Congress could bring would inevitably lead back to the fact that they themselves (Congress) authorized the data collection in the first place.

Curt
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Joe: IMO, the folks who run the NSA also run Congress. See Tom's story for a dose of how our Gov't cares for We The People...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 28, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
It's fact that Congress has subverted the will of the people.

Take a look at how popular the Patriot Act is in the first place.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Jun 28, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
apparently the sensitive data can't be viewed on DoD computers but is ok for the American public... weird, shouldn't the government be viewing it and not the public if jhedge's arguments are true?




"Should any website choose to post information the department deems classified, that particular content on the website will be filtered and remain inaccessible from DoD networks so long as it remains classified," Pickart reiterated in an emailed statement.

"The department does not determine what sites its personnel can choose to visit while on a DoD system, but instead relies on automated filters that restrict access based on content concerns or malware threats. The DoD is also not going to block websites from the American public in general, and to do so would violate our highest-held principle of upholding and defending the Constitution and respecting civil liberties and privacy."
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jun 28, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
Wasn't this a movie back in 1998.
Why are you all so surprised?
Hell, I break the laws of God and Man every day and nobody is beating down my front door.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Goatboy, I suppose you don't try civil disobedience much. Then you might care.
Or how about journalists keeping their sources secret?

These are a couple of the things we're losing here...
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:25pm PT
I'm a civil disobedience machine, I barely slow down for stop signs.
Privacy is a myth and the solution for change is to be more vocal and give up all those fussy details.
Did MLK or Malcolm care they were under surveillance?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
Whewf! You gotta admire Rafael Correa's argument for its keen veracity! Wowzer, . . . kudos. (Good catch, Tom.)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
I'm a civil disobedience machine, I barely slow down for stop signs.


Wow, a real anarchist you are Goatboy!

But yes, I can see you love to break the law. But civil disobedience??
Perhaps you should look up the term, because breaking traffic laws is not part of that equation.

-----------------


In Other News

The NYT ran an Op-Ed today:

Link: The Criminal N.S.A.

Read the story to find out how they're breaking the law, and that our branches of Gov't are stretching thin the wording of the Patriot Act to tell us it's all legal.

Representative F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., a Wisconsin Republican and one of the architects of the Patriot Act, and a man not known as a civil libertarian, has said that “Congress intended to allow the intelligence communities to access targeted information for specific investigations.” The N.S.A.’s demand for information about every American’s phone calls isn’t “targeted” at all — it’s a dragnet. “How can every call that every American makes or receives be relevant to a specific investigation?” Mr. Sensenbrenner has asked. The answer is simple: It’s not.

Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
^^^^ That's nothing more than a flimsy attempt by Sensenbrenner to cover his own ass.

Curt
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jun 28, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Oh snap I better slow down or K=man will report me to the Federalists.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Unfortunately Rafael Correa is overseeing the real life version of the movie 'Avatar', against the native tribes on the eastern slopes of the Andes, the headwaters of the Amazon Basin in eastern Ecuador.

He doesn't care so much about American support as he has basically sold out his country to the Chinese and invited them in with heavy machinery and armed 'security personnel' for rich gold mining in territory belonging to some of the best guerrilla fighters on the planet

One of my old friends owns a big organic farming ranch near there on the western side.

These tribes are only still there because they successfully fought off the Spanish Conquistadors and all subsequent contenders until now.

The gold mining is contaminating much of the Amazon Basin, the 'lungs of the planet'. Mitigation attempts are useless as the water table in the area is so high that it is like a marsh on a mountainside with water running off everywhere.

The movie 'Avatar' was shown in Quito to an assemblage of the chiefs of that area, who sat there with feathered head dresses and 3D glasses, exclaiming that this is just what is now happening in their lands.
crøtch

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
A quarter of the US Senate is asking the DNI to justify and clarify some details of his dragnet snooping strategy.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Letter%20to%20DNI%20Clapper.pdf
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 28, 2013 - 09:16pm PT


http://www.happyplace.com/24470/a-love-letter-to-the-nsa-agent-who-is-monitoring-my-online-activity
beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 28, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
What do we win when we call it out correctly?

A set of snake knifes?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 28, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
Yeah, and all this week I have been heart broken listening to chain saws taking down big redwood trees in the forest below my house...trees supposedly preserved on land deeded from private individuals to the Boy Scouts...

but just why do we need Andean gold from pristine jungle?
WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
Nobody supports NSA Spying on Americans except Hedge.

Time to go to North Korea if you like being spied on.

You'll be much safer there.

Rodman was there, he thought it wasn't too bad :-)

WBraun

climber
Jun 28, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
where your hero went

Nope, he's your hero Hedge.

You need and use him to make all your silly projections.

He's not mine.

Time for N Korea for you ......
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:08am PT
You're already dead.

You've lost your brain thinking that.

Dead ......
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:10am PT
Man .... ^^^^

You really are stupid ......
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:18am PT
Hedge

You need wash your brain.

It's full of garbage.

Way too much.

But it'll never happen for you.

You can't let go.

You're totally sucked into the machine itself.

You are the machine ......
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:26am PT
It's confirmed Hedge.

You can't think anymore.

You are the machine.

You've become the machines robotic extension .....
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:30am PT
Tomorrow the machine will oil your brain with more machine news to keep you lubed and running so you don't overheat and rust.

You'll need it .....
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:36am PT
rSin -- are you sure you know WTF you are squeezing out of that caulking gun of yours ....
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:40am PT
I don't need to pray for anything.

You already made hell on earth a long time ago .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:02am PT
boring
WBraun

climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:34am PT
Till then, it's just mindless bitching and complaining about "getting dragged out into the streets and shot".

Man you are completely stupid Hedge.

Completely lost political zombie with no brains left at all anymore.

You don't have a fuking clue anymore what you're talking about.

Total goner.

You're not even operating in the fuking ball park.

Forget North Korea Joe.

Forget America

They wouldn't even take you.

Even they can see you're a goner .....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:53am PT
http://www.youtube.com/v/AHrZgS-Gvi4

What A Drone Can See From 17,500 feet.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:03am PT
US army blocks access to Guardian website to preserve 'network hygiene'

Military admits to filtering reports and content relating to government surveillance programs for thousands of personnel.

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/us-army-blocks-guardian-website-access
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:24am PT
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/24/undercover-police-spy-girlfriend-child



Trauma of spy's girlfriend: 'like being raped by the state'

Woman says she now knows that the weekend she went into labour, the undercover policeman was with his wife and children

Paul Lewis, Rob Evans and Sorcha Pollak
The Guardian, Monday 24 June 2013 16.04 EDT

Bob Lambert undercover policeman spy
Bob Lambert cradles his son in the maternity ward. The child’s mother said he was initially doting but later vanished from her life. Photograph: Guardian

A woman who had a child with an undercover police officer who was spying on her says she feels she was "raped by the state" and has been deeply traumatised after discovering his real identity.

She met the undercover officer – Bob Lambert – in 1984. At the time, Lambert was posing as "Bob Robinson", an animal rights activist, on behalf of the then secret police unit known as the Special Demonstration Squad (SDS).

The woman, whose first name is Jacqui, said Lambert was supportive when she became pregnant with their son in 1985, and wanted to have the child. But he later vanished from her life, claiming to be on the run. She only discovered his true identity last year – after spotting his photograph in a newspaper.

"I feel like I've got no foundations in my life," she said. "It was all built on sand – your first serious relationship, your first child, the first time you give birth – they're all significant, but for me they're gone, ruined, spoiled ...

"I was not consenting to sleeping with Bob Lambert, I didn't know who Bob Lambert was. I had a spy living with me, sleeping with me, making a family with me, and I didn't do anything to deserve that."

Jacqui gave the Guardian and Channel 4 an exclusive interview, parts of which were broadcast in a Dispatches documentary on Monday.

Her story is also recounted in the book at the centre of the latest revelations, Undercover: The Truth About Britain's Secret Police.

"I was 22 when I first met Bob Robinson. He was quite a bit older than me," she said. "He was very charming and charismatic and after only a couple of meetings I was smitten.

"Bob could be whatever you wanted him to be – and I wanted a man to love me. That's what Bob gave me. I always thought that he was besotted with me ... Most of the time we went to animal rights meetings in east London because that's who he wanted to be introduced to."

Lambert was spending several days a week with Jacqui while occasionally returning to his real wife and two children. Jacqui believes she was deliberately targeted because of her connections in the animal rights movement. "I think I was trusted and liked so no one ever questioned him because he was with me."

As the couple grew closer, Jacqui said she told him she wanted to have a child. "Since all this has come out I've been asked, didn't Bob try to get you to terminate the pregnancy? I have to make them understand that it was a planned pregnancy so why would he try to persuade me not to have the baby?"

A photograph of Lambert in the maternity ward shows him holding his son. "I now know that the Sunday I went into labour, he was spending that weekend with his wife and two young children. And all the time he knew that he was going to watch his girlfriend give birth to their child."

When their son was born, Jacqui said Lambert was initially a doting father. However, she believes she ceased to be useful to Lambert, who started to drift away. "Once I became a mum I cut back on doing all the animal stuff and I was no longer any use to him," she said.

During his five-year deployment, Lambert also infiltrated the environmental campaign group London Greenpeace. On Friday the Guardian revealed how he co-wrote the "McLibel leaflet", which defamed McDonald's and became the subject of the longest libel trial in English legal history.

After his deployment ended in 1988, Lambert went on to become a detective inspector in the SDS, where he supervised other undercover police spies. Former SDS officer and whistleblower Peter Francis said that Lambert advised him to wear a condom when sleeping with activists.

Lambert, who now works as a university academic, declined to comment on specific testimony from Jacqui or Francis. However in a general statement, he said allegations against him were a "combination of truth, distortions, exaggerations and outright lies".

He added: "The work of an undercover officer is complex, dangerous and sensitive and it would take some considerable time, and the co-operation of my former police employers, to provide the full background, context and detail necessary to address the matters which have been raised."

Jacqui tracked down Lambert and spoke with him last summer, after discovering – after 24 years – that the father of her son was a police infiltrator. All the time Lambert was actually working a few miles away from her, at Scotland Yard. "When I spoke to him I was saying, 'Why me?'" she said. "I gave out a few leaflets, went on a few demos, but I wasn't a bad person."

The former officer is since understood to have developed a relationship with his son, who has declined to be interviewed and asked for journalists to respect his privacy.

Jacqui is one of about a dozen women bringing a legal action against the Met for the trauma caused by long-term relationships with undercover police. She said: "We [the women bringing cases] are psychologically damaged; it is like being raped by the state. We feel that we were sexually abused because none of us gave consent."

She added: "I've had apologies from Bob himself but I want an apology from the organisation that paid him and gave him the orders."
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
What A Drone Can See From 17,500 feet.

That's pretty F'ing cool!!

Curt
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Oops, here's the right link:

The Friday NYT Op-Ed:

Link: The Criminal N.S.A.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
"In response to your question about access to the guardian.co.uk website, the army is filtering some access to press coverage and online content about the NSA leaks," said Gordon Van Vleet, a Netcom public affairs officer.

It's not clear that they're filtering only the Guardian.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Revealed: secret European deals to hand over private data to America (and private American data to Europe)

"Germany 'among countries offering intelligence' according to new claims by former US defence analyst

Madsen's disclosures have prompted calls for European governments to come clean on their arrangements with the NSA. "There needs to be transparency as to whether or not it is legal for the US or any other security service to interrogate private material," said John Cooper QC, a leading international human rights lawyer. "The problem here is that none of these arrangements has been debated in any democratic arena. I agree with William Hague that sometimes things have to be done in secret, but you don't break the law in secret."

Madsen said all seven European countries and the US have access to the Tat 14 fibre-optic cable network running between Denmark and Germany, the Netherlands, France, the UK and the US, allowing them to intercept vast amounts of data, including phone calls, emails and records of users' access to websites."

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/29/european-private-data-america
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jun 29, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
Jun 28, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/v/AHrZgS-Gvi4

What A Drone Can See From 17,500 feet.


I think worldwide we should organize a day where we all collectively "moon" the spy cameras.

This seriously is a sad day in history.

HaShem told us this would happen. The Last Days will be dark indeed. This is what you get when mankind thinks of himself as G-d and follows and listens to the little god of this world and the father of lies. You get the NWO.

In the end it too will fail and anyone who goes with Satan's plan will meet the same end. Call it "The Tower of Babel 2.0 ." It will ultimately fail when Yeshua HaMashiach returns. Then a 1000 years of peace. True peace as only Adonai can provide.

Baruch HaShem.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
The Criminal N.S.A.
By JENNIFER STISA GRANICK and CHRISTOPHER JON SPRIGMAN
Published: June 27, 2013

THE twin revelations that telecom carriers have been secretly giving the National Security Agency information about Americans’ phone calls, and that the N.S.A. has been capturing e-mail and other private communications from Internet companies as part of a secret program called Prism, have not enraged most Americans. Lulled, perhaps, by the Obama administration’s claims that these “modest encroachments on privacy” were approved by Congress and by federal judges, public opinion quickly migrated from shock to “meh.”
Related

It didn’t help that Congressional watchdogs — with a few exceptions, like Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky — have accepted the White House’s claims of legality. The leaders of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, and Saxby Chambliss, Republican of Georgia, have called the surveillance legal. So have liberal-leaning commentators like Hendrik Hertzberg and David Ignatius.

This view is wrong — and not only, or even mainly, because of the privacy issues raised by the American Civil Liberties Union and other critics. The two programs violate both the letter and the spirit of federal law. No statute explicitly authorizes mass surveillance. Through a series of legal contortions, the Obama administration has argued that Congress, since 9/11, intended to implicitly authorize mass surveillance. But this strategy mostly consists of wordplay, fear-mongering and a highly selective reading of the law. Americans deserve better from the White House — and from President Obama, who has seemingly forgotten the constitutional law he once taught.

The administration has defended each of the two secret programs. Let’s examine them in turn.

Edward J. Snowden, the former N.S.A. contract employee and whistle-blower, has provided evidence that the government has phone record metadata on all Verizon customers, and probably on every American, going back seven years. This metadata is extremely revealing; investigators mining it might be able to infer whether we have an illness or an addiction, what our religious affiliations and political activities are, and so on.

The law under which the government collected this data, Section 215 of the Patriot Act, allows the F.B.I. to obtain court orders demanding that a person or company produce “tangible things,” upon showing reasonable grounds that the things sought are “relevant” to an authorized foreign intelligence investigation. The F.B.I. does not need to demonstrate probable cause that a crime has been committed, or any connection to terrorism.

Even in the fearful time when the Patriot Act was enacted, in October 2001, lawmakers never contemplated that Section 215 would be used for phone metadata, or for mass surveillance of any sort. Representative F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., a Wisconsin Republican and one of the architects of the Patriot Act, and a man not known as a civil libertarian, has said that “Congress intended to allow the intelligence communities to access targeted information for specific investigations.” The N.S.A.’s demand for information about every American’s phone calls isn’t “targeted” at all — it’s a dragnet. “How can every call that every American makes or receives be relevant to a specific investigation?” Mr. Sensenbrenner has asked. The answer is simple: It’s not.

The government claims that under Section 215 it may seize all of our phone call information now because it might conceivably be relevant to an investigation at some later date, even if there is no particular reason to believe that any but a tiny fraction of the data collected might possibly be suspicious. That is a shockingly flimsy argument — any data might be “relevant” to an investigation eventually, if by “eventually” you mean “sometime before the end of time.” If all data is “relevant,” it makes a mockery of the already shaky concept of relevance.

Let’s turn to Prism: the streamlined, electronic seizure of communications from Internet companies. In combination with what we have already learned about the N.S.A.’s access to telecommunications and Internet infrastructure, Prism is further proof that the agency is collecting vast amounts of e-mails and other messages — including communications to, from and between Americans.

The government justifies Prism under the FISA Amendments Act of 2008. Section 1881a of the act gave the president broad authority to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance. If the attorney general and the director of national intelligence certify that the purpose of the monitoring is to collect foreign intelligence information about any non­American individual or entity not known to be in the United States, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court can require companies to provide access to Americans’ international communications. The court does not approve the target or the facilities to be monitored, nor does it assess whether the government is doing enough to minimize the intrusion, correct for collection mistakes and protect privacy. Once the court issues a surveillance order, the government can issue top-secret directives to Internet companies like Google and Facebook to turn over calls, e-mails, video and voice chats, photos, voice­over IP calls (like Skype) and social networking information.

Like the Patriot Act, the FISA Amendments Act gives the government very broad surveillance authority. And yet the Prism program appears to outstrip that authority. In particular, the government “may not intentionally acquire any communication as to which the sender and all intended recipients are known at the time of the acquisition to be located in the United States.”

The government knows that it regularly obtains Americans’ protected communications. The Washington Post reported that Prism is designed to produce at least 51 percent confidence in a target’s “foreignness” — as John Oliver of “The Daily Show” put it, “a coin flip plus 1 percent.” By turning a blind eye to the fact that 49-plus percent of the communications might be purely among Americans, the N.S.A. has intentionally acquired information it is not allowed to have, even under the terrifyingly broad auspices of the FISA Amendments Act.

How could vacuuming up Americans’ communications conform with this legal limitation? Well, as James R. Clapper Jr., the director of national intelligence, told Andrea Mitchell of NBC, the N.S.A. uses the word “acquire” only when it pulls information out of its gigantic database of communications and not when it first intercepts and stores the information.

If there’s a law against torturing the English language, James Clapper is in real trouble.

The administration hides the extent of its “incidental” surveillance of Americans behind fuzzy language. When Congress reauthorized the law at the end of 2012, legislators said Americans had nothing to worry about because the surveillance could not “target” American citizens or permanent residents. Mr. Clapper offered the same assurances. Based on these statements, an ordinary citizen might think the N.S.A. cannot read Americans’ e-mails or online chats under the F.A.A. But that is a government ­fed misunderstanding.

A “target” under the act is a person or entity the government wants information on — not the people the government is trying to listen to. It’s actually O.K. under the act to grab Americans’ messages so long as they are communicating with the target, or anyone who is not in the United States.

Leave aside the Patriot Act and FISA Amendments Act for a moment, and turn to the Constitution.

The Fourth Amendment obliges the government to demonstrate probable cause before conducting invasive surveillance. There is simply no precedent under the Constitution for the government’s seizing such vast amounts of revealing data on innocent Americans’ communications.

The government has made a mockery of that protection by relying on select Supreme Court cases, decided before the era of the public Internet and cellphones, to argue that citizens have no expectation of privacy in either phone metadata or in e-mails or other private electronic messages that it stores with third parties.

This hairsplitting is inimical to privacy and contrary to what at least five justices ruled just last year in a case called United States v. Jones. One of the most conservative justices on the Court, Samuel A. Alito Jr., wrote that where even public information about individuals is monitored over the long term, at some point, government crosses a line and must comply with the protections of the Fourth Amendment. That principle is, if anything, even more true for Americans’ sensitive nonpublic information like phone metadata and social networking activity.

We may never know all the details of the mass surveillance programs, but we know this: The administration has justified them through abuse of language, intentional evasion of statutory protections, secret, unreviewable investigative procedures and constitutional arguments that make a mockery of the government’s professed concern with protecting Americans’ privacy. It’s time to call the N.S.A.’s mass surveillance programs what they are: criminal.

Jennifer Stisa Granick is the director of civil liberties at the Stanford Center for Internet and Society. Christopher Jon Sprigman is a professor at the University of Virginia School of Law.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/opinion/the-criminal-nsa.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
when i send a private email to a friend, i am not giving up my right to privacy or inviting the government or anyone else other than the recipient to read it


when i share a post on Supertopo with the community of climbers, i am not inviting a government intelligence agency to analyze my political philosophy
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
i worry about a criminal fractional reserve banking system, backing a monopolized military/industrial complex, backing a falsely legalized barbaric totalitarian police state, violating everyone's civil rights of privacy, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness

and about people like you who seem to be able to justify such things


other than that, life is good...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 29, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
actually that brings up an extremely interesting point that i have mentioned before and thought about for many years:

how is it possible that with 6000+ nukes constructed on this planet with thousands of tests at the cost of thoroughly contaminating the biosphere of our fragile planet, with many of those nukes out of the hands of any major organizations, how is it possible that there have not been any nuclear explosions in any major cities since Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

and oh, yes, i do worry about such, and think that when/if such events start happening...people will quickly realize that concentrations of populations in cities is no longer a viable social option

and i know something about how to evaluate such risks, having been in charge of developing large federal risk management plans

and i am well aware that DOE and DoD have nuclear intervention teams working hard...it just is not technically practical and believable to prevent any and all such attempts, which are just too easy to do, especially in comparison to other events that have been made to occur...

so if you worry about such things, can you shed some light on this question?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 29, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Tom:

Micro Air Vehicles? Wow.

z78mgfKprdg[Click to View YouTube Video]
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 29, 2013 - 10:58pm PT
YER GUNNA DIE

FER SURE

But are

you gunna live?

LIBERTY OR DEATH
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 29, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
hey!

I found an interview with Unhinged!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 30, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Reports in Der Spiegel that US agencies bugged European council

"The latest reports of NSA snooping on Europe – and on Germany in particular – went well beyond previous revelations of electronic spying said to be focused on identifying suspected terrorists, extremists and organised criminals.

The German publication Der Spiegel reported that it had seen documents and slides from the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden indicating that US agencies bugged the offices of the EU in Washington and at the United Nations in New York. They are also accused of directing an operation from Nato headquarters in Brussels to infiltrate the telephone and email networks at the EU's Justus Lipsius building in the Belgian capital, the venue for EU summits and home of the European council.

Without citing sources, the magazine reported that more than five years ago security officers at the EU had noticed several missed calls apparently targeting the remote maintenance system in the building that were traced to NSA offices within the Nato compound in Brussels.

The impact of the Der Spiegel allegations may be felt more keenly in Germany than in Brussels. The magazine said Germany was the foremost target for the US surveillance programmes, categorising Washington's key European ally alongside China, Iraq or Saudi Arabia in the intensity of the electronic snooping.

Germany's justice minister, Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger, called for an explanation from the US authorities. "If the media reports are true, it is reminiscent of the actions of enemies during the cold war," she was quoted as saying in the German newspaper Bild. "It is beyond imagination that our friends in the US view Europeans as the enemy."

France later also asked the US authorities for an explanation. France's foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, said: "These acts, if confirmed, would be completely unacceptable.

"We expect the American authorities to answer the legitimate concerns raised by these press revelations as quickly as possible.""

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europe-claims-us-eu-trade
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 30, 2013 - 11:57am PT
Sounds like you've got nothing to worry about though, unless your friends are terrorists


Or unless you are a whistle blower who wants to expose the wrongdoing of the Gov't. Or do you also consider that person a terrorist too, Joe?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 30, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jun 30, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
jghedge - if you have nothing to hide or worth ripping off leave your doors open tonight. Show some faith in your fellow opportunistic criminals.

And btw what are your passwords? Nothing to hide right? Lets check out all your online activity. If its anything like your ST rants anyone who is curious will quickly lose interest. Sorry.


froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 30, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
A few things I believe...

Once you grant powers to the executive branch and the industrial/military/intelligence complex you'll have a damnable time wresting it from them.

The scope of surveillance programs grows beyond what was originally intended. Always has, always will.

The industrial/military/intelligence complex will demonize anyone who threatens their power/gravy train.

Terrorists are not an existential threat to the United States. OTOH, dismantling the constitution in the name of "safety" is.

To all of you who are fine with this surveillance, why are you not fine with opening the topic up for discussion? Open up the FISA court decisions for all to see and let's have a true discussion amongst the American public about it. We presumably still live in a democracy don't we?

Also, Daniel Ellsberg backs Snowden, and even if I didn't know anything else about this affair, that'd probably be good enough for me.
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
since we are now focusing on "facts."

here are a few facts for those 2+2=5 types, who get all their facts from on and off the record government sources, to ponder...

regarding the nsa's shiny new data center in utah:

1. "They would have plenty of space with five zettabytes to store at least something on the order of 100 years worth of the worldwide communications, phones and emails ... and then have plenty of space left over to do any kind of parallel processing to try to break codes."

2. "NSA does provide some measure of the computing power at its new data farm in Utah. It requires 65 megawatts of power, enough for 65,000 homes. It also has its own power substation."

3. and because this isn't enough computing power and storage to process the "metadata" that they are "legally" collecting: "Last month, the agency broke ground on its next data farm at its headquarters at Ft. Meade, Md. But that facility will be only two-thirds the size of the mega-complex in Utah."

seriously a few of you should try breaking away from government sourced "facts" for just a second. start by asking yourself why is it that the obama gov't has deemed it necessary to charge eight people with treason during obama's five year tenure when the number charged during the previous 91 years of the laws existence totalled three? then ask yourself if the director of national intelligence, james clapper, was just lying on the record to congress why on earth would you believe what off the record government sources are feeding the media?

those of you stuck on the official narrative are sounding a lot like leb in the days of bush sanctioned torture, failure to find wmd in in iraq, etc.

but as a now semi-famous anchorman once put it:

keep on f*#kin' that chicken.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 30, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 1, 2013 - 11:00am PT
But Snowden's leaks are supposed to be gov't sourced facts too, correct? Just unauthorized.

This shows the absurd lengths you'll reach for in order to support your argument.


Yes, everything is a lie from the gov't, even the 'facts' that Snowden gave us.


Wow, what a tremendous vote of support for the gov't that statement ends up being. Surely since every single thing you hear from them is a lie, then they must being doing it all for the good of We The People. So why should we oppose them?

Pretty lame line of reasoning, IMO.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
The white washer neocon and political Zionist shill and hypocrite Hedge tells everyone they know nothing because he himself knows absolutely nothing.

Therefore the projecting Hedge who knows absolutely nothing assumes everyone else knows nothing except only what Hedge knows.

Hedge brings the stupidest arguments every presented.

You should be working in Washington DC .....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 04:27pm PT
Another Russian official was even more biting and contemptuous of President Obama: “I join the opinion that we by no means should expel him. I think Snowden is a great pacifist. This man has done no less to get the Nobel Peace Prize than U.S. President Barack Obama.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2013/07/01/putin-slaps-down-obama-again/

the brainless joes (hedge and healy) will now blame it on bush.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 1, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Hawkeye is wrong when it comes to Healyje. Healyje has a clear mind.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
healys mind is polluted when it comes to politics or bolts.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 1, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
No, it isn't.

You know the pattern... we can carry on... just repeat...
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 1, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Snowden has requested asylum in Russia: http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/311773.html Obviously not his first choice of destinations. It seems like the US cancelled his passport while he was in the Moscow airport, so he couldn't travel anymore, and Russia became his only option.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
^^^lol

somewhere i am sure its written down for those pondering this course of action.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
Another Russian official was even more biting and contemptuous of President Obama: “I join the opinion that we by no means should expel him. I think Snowden is a great pacifist. This man has done no less to get the Nobel Peace Prize than U.S. President Barack Obama.”

hedge, your reading comprehension is non-existent. i did no such thing.

but you have to admit there is merit in what he SAID. but i forgot about your brain bandwidth issue....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
hedge, the heat must be short circuiting your left brain cell to the one on the right.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
The thing is Putin in Russia is he's in Charge!

The thing in America is Obama is not charge.

He's pussy whupped by corporations, Wall Street, Bankers, Israel lobbyists.

The Jack ass is only orator.

He needs to get an iron fist.

Like him or not Putin can kick azz.

We got a lame azz president just like Hedge.

Lame azz President O bomer allows blackmailing everyone using NSA info illegally gained.

Jack azz Hedge supports this crap.

This crap has been known for years and is nothing new at all except now people are starting to understand it.

The gig is becoming up and those azzholes are getting nervous.

July 4th weekend is supposed to have a black ops Nuke in LA go off.

Joe start digging a bunker.

We don't want to lose you ....... :-)

WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
I just told you now and thus you are now guilty.

There's no escape Joe.

Start digging the bunker ..... :-)
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Snowden had to get out of the country.

They would have killed him here.

What he did is broke the law so he had to run.

There's no alternative for him.

Whistle blowers can get killed easily or jailed permanently.

What do expect him to do Joe.

They would destroy him here.

He has no chance except to run ....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
As was the support of turncoat repub traitors who'd rather express love for Communist Russia than admit to being wrong.

joe, your an idiot. just because i agree with a russian general on a minor point doesnt mean i am expressing love for communist russia. especially since its a "federation" not communist. look up in your reliable cia world fact book. if you might recall, the iron communist curtain came crashing down around their ears.

nor am i a repub. nor a traitor.

you really are giving those two brain cells of yours a work-out today arent you?
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
Joe c'mon man

You know there's no one in the US Congress he could actually trust right now to actually protect him.

You're pretty naive.

It would have been far to dangerous.

He knew he had to get out.

Anyways he's not important at this stage but a distraction.

The important stuff is really being buried under the distraction of "Snowden"

Start digging Joe.

We don't want to lose you this weekend .... :-)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
Agreeing with a Communist Russian General in his praise of an American traitor who leaked national security op-sec to (and defected to) Russia.

so joe,

perhaps you would like to tell us what great things obama did to earn the Nobel Peace Prize?

edit:

I see what you did here :-)

me too. thats his violent braincell at work
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
"I think Snowden is a great pacifist. This man has done no less to get the Nobel Peace Prize than U.S. President Barack Obama.”

well joe, lets try again. not to overwork those two braincells of yours....

the above quote is the one i partially agtree with. obama did no more than snowden to win teh pease prize. i have no idea whether snowden is a pacifist.

really, "why did BO win the peace prize?" did he risk death like snowden? no...

so what did BO do besdies BSing you?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
Uhmmmm, can we keep level heads here?

How this pans out, I do not know. Do any of you Taco Standers?

Is he a traitor or a hero? He certainly exposed a lot of crap (that was already known), but could he have done it in a better way? If he wanted to paint himself as a patriot/whistleblower.

Hell, I do not know. Better him than me, going through this.

I have enough on my plate.

Happy and safe climbing.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
wow hedge, thats the most intelligent thing you have said the entire thread. how did you manage to get both brain cells working at once?
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Patrick

In this so called democratic society he's considered a traitor.

But .... !!!

Sometimes one has to become a traitor against your own society to reveal the truth.

The intelligent class will understand.

The unintelligent class will not understand.

At this point in time Snowden has become the distraction to the real issues.

Hedge believes his govt. will save him from whatever he believes.

A lot of others do not see in that light.

It takes good intelligence to see thru the whole thing not just the surface that the general media is portraying
as Hedge is being their lapdog, lapping it all up . ....


WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
I would never NEVER turn on my own country. NEVER.


You do it all the time unknowingly by supporting it's nefarious actions against humanity.

The United States of America does not stand for nefarious actions against humanity.

The Untied States of America has lost it's way and thus you Hedge are a traitor for unknowingly supporting it's inhumane actions.

Better start that digging ....
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 1, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
Out of all the tens of thousands of contractors with the same clearance Snowden had, he's the only one with a conscience?

This is your argument of proof - that there are people willing to forgo conscience for a paycheck?

Might shock you that every war crime tribunal parades hundreds of people though the courthouse doors who were "only doing their job". Working for a paycheck does not make it right.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 07:59pm PT
A lot of people are speaking out from the govt. and have been.

But you're way too stupid to see that since you only gobble up The Huffington Post bullshit .....

You're a completely brainwashed politard .....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
hedge,

now focus. russia is not communist anymore. (you are starting to sound like a teabagger).

also, russia needs little help from snowden in catching spies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/14/russia-expel-us-diplomat-ryan-fogle

Ryan Fogle, the third secretary at the US embassy in Moscow, was paraded in footage aired on state-run television after being detained late on Monday night by officers from the Federal Security Service (FSB), a successor to the Soviet-era KGB.

He stands accused of being a CIA spy and was declared persona non grata by the foreign ministry on Tuesday .

"A classic spy arsenal was discovered, as well as a large sum of money that doesn't just expose a foreign agent caught red-handed, but also raises serious questions for the American side," the ministry said. "Such provocative actions in the spirit of the cold war in no way help to strengthen mutual trust."

this was back in May, barely two months ago.

now focus again....

NSA deals in cyber intelligence. if snowden does know about spy networks and names of spies, then the USA has a bigger problem than him. rule # 1 in the top secret game is only tell people who needs ot know. we should ahve figured that out with wikileaks. and if we havent, then we are not learning.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
Hawkeye

Hedge is just plain stupid politard.

He doesn't have a clue WTF he's talking about.

He's the fox news equivalent of knowledge.

He's a wing nut pretending he's a patriot.

All the signs are there .....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
werner,

politicians love guys like hedge. they are spoon feedable.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
You compromise deep cover op-sec, you get people killed.


You jack azz the CIA and your fuked up intelligence agencies has been killing millions of people for years.

You're deluded and it shows .....
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
He's your hero Joe not ours.

You're the one who has the huge hard on for him ......
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
"also, russia needs little help from snowden in catching spies."


So, you want them to be caught? Apparently you do.

You are a traitor. Thanks for reasserting yourself, as#@&%e.

that dude caught by russia back in may was a pathetic spy. an embarrassment. see the wig on his head?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 1, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

i agree, but....
go check out Dr F's thread on Republicans. the libtards over there done drunk the water. informed? lol not likely.
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
What did Snowden reveal that puts people in harms way?

It's simple.

The leaks caused hedge to have to build a bunker in LA.

He's pissed because he has to do some real digging now.

Hard manual labor is not his shtick .......
WBraun

climber
Jul 1, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
Every post I make in this thread has a hidden encrypted code that NSA has to spend 108 years to decrypt.

By the end of that time they will get the message .......
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 2, 2013 - 02:35am PT
In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

Nice desperate attempt at a (probably) final hail Mary.

Curt


Bargainhunter

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 03:59am PT
"They must find it difficult, those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." -Gerald Massey
hb81

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 06:17am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 2, 2013 - 06:54am PT
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-01/edward-snowden-loses-patriot-games-to-putin.html?cmpid=yhoo


Loves gasoline is a gapeing asshat
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 2, 2013 - 09:35am PT
Lovesgas said:
"I'll leave Riley and Joe to their love of insults, fantasy worlds, and Statist Propaganda."

The rest of us did that a long time back. I don't read what Jhedge even writes any more.





Oh, and Nick, no need to be insulting Lovesgas, you are only displaying your ignorage in not being able to formulate an opinion if your best argument is a personal attack.

Nick Goldsmith tried to argue:
"Loves gasoline is a gapeing asshat "
But clearly more intelligent and also a better person (as he didn't resort to such) than you if that's your best argument.


Truthfully, we might not even know the 1/2 of this story. Its a lot of speculation on everyones part upthread.

Best to all
WBraun

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 10:56am PT
The president, the head of the NSA, and many experts have told us plenty if we are willing to read and study.

Keep listening to them as they spin this in such a way to convince you stupid sheep to come inside for your intellectual slaughter.

Man you people are stupid ......
WBraun

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:09am PT
Hedge has Stockholm Syndrome, feels intense fear of physical harm and believes all control is in the hands of his (tormentor) which he deludedly believes is his protector ......
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:18am PT
delusions of grandeur...Russia gave him the boot because he didn't have sh#t.
WBraun

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Hedge -- "How about letting paranoia over your phone records overwhelm your common sense?"

See how crazy you talk Joe.

I haven't used a phone in 40 years.

You've become a tin foil hatter nutcase.

You're so crazy you make sh!t up here every day about people on these politard threads and project all your stupid crazy politard garbage at them daily.

Take a vacation Joe and get your sanity back .....
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:26am PT
dude has to make himself look important, fluff it up a little, so someone will be interested in taking him in. He played his hand like a tool, and now he's screwed. Bullshitter who played the wrong game.

Anyone who doesn't think phone records have been monitored since the advent of phones is delusional.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:33am PT
does anyone actually believe Snowden was sitting in a Moscow airport in transit? That may be the most ridiculous thing ever ...lol... At least to anyone who has flown internationally

Riley, here's the last picture I took of Ben Reid before the KGB took him to
the 'transit hotel' at Sheremyetovo* where he spent the next two or three days.
His crime? Trying to enter the USSR without a visa.


This was a few minutes before when USSR Speed Climbing Champion Sergei ?
got his butt chewed out big time for trying to sweet talk the KGB officer.

*Somewhere I have a picture of the 'hotel' with the bars on the windows.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:40am PT
using its release as black mail for his own safety stating it will be released if anything happens to him

Riley, Glenn Greenwald says Snowden has already given everything he has to the press, and press editors are now determining what the news scoops are and how info will be released. His value as a spy is not great, and he's just a source of political problems wherever he goes.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:54am PT
You guys need to start admitting that this isn't just about your phone logs.


I for one never said it was about my phone logs. It's about all phone logs, and more.

Greenwald says, "I will say that there are vast programs, both domestic and international spying, that the world will be shocked to learn about, that the NSA is engaged in with no democratic accountability and that's what driving our reporting."

If you think it's cool that the power-elite knows everything everybody says and does, then you don't have much of an imagination for how that knowledge can be abused.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 2, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Hedge, remember Plame, and how the Admin didn't do squat to punish those who leaked?

Fast forward to Obama, who gave a pass to the previous Admin's corruption and treasonous behavior. What does that make Obama?

You throw the word "traitor" around pretty easily. But when a whistleblower exposes wrongdoing by the Gov't (think Manning and the collateral murder video), you have no gut go call the one you support corrupt.


Previously, Joe, you said that you couldn't tell if Snowden was set up by the NSA to release the 'secrets' as a sort of smokescreen. But then you got down on DMT when he said he deosn't believe a word the spy agency claims because, after all, they lie for a living.

Our allies aren't too happy about what the NSA is doing. But I suppose that's OK for you, because you know in your heart that they are actually doing it to protect you.

Personally, I don't buy it. In the Occupy movement, where thousands rallied against corporate control and the fleecing of the middle class (and the hoarding of the money by the elite), we could see very clearly. The police/military did not come to protect the people. They were there to protect the elite.

What on earth makes you think this is any different? Bogymen with bombs? I, for one, don't buy it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 2, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
On a semi-related note:

Texas Woman Indicted Over Ricin Letters to Obama

OK, here's where the rubber meets the road. They tracked down this woman within weeks (after very quickly identifying another suspect, and subsequently letting him go). In the Boston bombings, the authorities very quickly had front-page pictures showing the suspects.

These are the things that give the populace the idea that perpetual surveillance is acceptable. We catch all the wrongdoings before they happen. And if we miss, we'll certainly catch them after they've done it.

What could be wrong with that?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
American intelligence and government officers have said this is the most damaging intelligence leak in history.

damaging politically? yes. barry is not looking good. and of course, our neighbors and good friends (Euro Union) are not happy that the NSA is slinking around recording everyone.

our policians are embarrassed as they should be.

damaging? the only thing damaging thats been released is warnigns to all the terrorists that they might be recorded, emails trascked etc. if they were smart at all they already knew that.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Not a single executive was charged with a crime.

thats DAMAGING. on an incomprehesible scale as compared to snowdens revelations.

damaging is when corporate america pulls teh strings and teh politards and elected officials are the puppets....thats what is damaging.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
Here's what I'm hearing from you guys:

you hear what you want to hear. you are the equivalent of a liberal teabagger.

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 2, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
I'm pretty annoyed with our government spying on it's citizens.

This past Saturday, my Latina friend called me from her home in Panama. The caller ID was 'US Government'

I actually started a thread about it here, but it mysteriously vanished.

So, my calls are being monitored. I've got nothing to hide. It still annoys me though.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
I'm betting his security clearance isn't sh#t

apparently violating the terms of his SC was enough to really piss off POTUS. thats worth something.

you guys still dont get it. if the government is going to do embarrassing things....if they are going to do illegal things in friendly foreign countries (Germany did not authorize NSA to steal their records), then for gods sakes be smart enough not to get caught.

i have worked on quite a few highly secure military installations. you want to know the intelligent security questions I got? when I had a review of a presentation meant for the general public conducted, security said I could not use a picture that I obtained from Google Earth which mapped out the Base. I told them it was out there, on the internet. didnt matter. then i had a picture of a secure facility. they would not allow that even though it had been on the front page of the newspaper two weeks previously.

Intelligence does not equal intelligent.

and in this case, we have a problem how an analyst was vetted, we have a problem with the information that analyst obtained, and we have a problem with POTUS and VP not even being consistent in their communications. pathetic.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 2, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
"Every breath you take
And every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
Ill be watching you" -NSA
WBraun

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
Maybe we should put up all the US people who were blackmailed, murdered and had their lives fuked over by the NSA.

How they used it to fuk America royal and start all those wars.

But Hedge doesn't have clue about any of it.

He's too busy being the MSM version of a talking head.

He wouldn't have the first clue where to find the info.

He's too busy sucking up to Obama's and prior Bush's stupid corrupt handlers.

Disgraceful, pathetic and cowardly UNAMERICAN ....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 2, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Sad day. Snowden is f*cked.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 2, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
Joe, here's you putting words in my mouth:

Here's you: "My gov't is treating me like a terrorist, therefore the terrorists shouldn't be treated like terrorists, or anything done to stop them, because 'I don't buy it'.

I didn't say any of that. But you knew that, right? Because you know as well as I, if the US gov't treated me like a terrorist, I wouldn't be typing. So piss off with your stupid mental mockery jack-off.



And yeah, I do remember Bush saying he'd stop at nothing until the one who leaked Plane's name was behind bars. Because you remember so well, perhaps you can tell me how many days Libby spent behind bars for perjury.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
Any names? Links?

Stories, anecdotes, rumors?

Anything?

Well for starts lies about Viet Nam but that's easy.

Try this one 1968, When Ronnie got in a tad later with his crew that was the same crew who lied and murdered under Bushie 1 and II and still do hell that's easy too

goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Privacy was never mentioned in the constitution or the bill of rights.
You folks need to settle down, you're just not that important to the NSA for them to care about you.
Except Hedge, he's a dead man.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Imagine how Nixon and Hoover could have magnified their Enemies List with the internet spying tools of today.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jul 2, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
The founding father's couldn't have fathomed internet, telecommunications, cell phones, etc. There is a whole bunch of sh*t that they didn't know would happen. That's why there are amendments made to our laws, to update.




Uh oh..

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324436104578582253203190728.html


Bolivia said Tuesday that a plane carrying President Evo Morales home from Moscow was forced to land in Austria after France and Portugal denied permission for it to enter their airspace, amid speculation that he could be carrying National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden.

Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca denied at a news conference in Bolivia's capital La Paz that Mr. Snowden was on board. He said having him on the plane would have violated international norms.


Yes the EU is pissed at Obama...but they won't let a plane carrying a foreign leader fly over their airspace if they even think Snowden's on it


Time to start waking up...this is treason, plain and simple.




It's not treason. The U.S. is very powerful, they can manipulate smaller governments into doing whatever. We have our hands in everything everywhere. For you to assume those countries are doing it because he's a traitor, you are a simple minded fool following what the government wants you sheople to think. He could have gone about this a lot more clever and quietly if he was a traitor.


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 2, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
What point are you trying to make with that? Bush pardoned the leaker, and refused to fire the others.

The point I'm making is that when the Administration blows the cover of a covert agent, it's pardoned--not even a day in jail for anyone. But when whistleblowers like Manning, Drake, and Snowden blow the Admin's cover, everybody yells Treason! Yet none of these whistleblowers have actually revealed any covert agent names.

As Chris Hedges put it, Snowden has done what in the past was the way people leaked the wrong-doings of the gov't. They leak it to the press, and the press filtered the information before printing.

This method of keeping an eye on the gov't is now taken away. Snowden knew they could trace where the leak came from, so he gave himself up beforehand.

In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.
    Edward Joseph Snowden
WBraun

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
I knew Hedge couldn't for the life of him find the real stuff on this.

This proves he's a useless tool.

he doesn't have clue how to use the internet ......
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 2, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
good links, Hedge

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 2, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Joe, of course you're right. I can't say the Admin was responsible for the leak. Indeed, a suspect for the leak was never identified.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 2, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
But when whistleblowers like Manning, Drake, and Snowden blow the Admin's cover, everybody yells Treason! Yet none of these whistleblowers have actually revealed any covert agent names.


How do you know? For you to know that, the gov't would have to publicly confirm that. They can't do that.

For that to happen, it would have to happen in a Court process that is closed to the public (OHHHHHH! Like is happening with Manning right now!)

And you wondered about the need of getting security clearances for all involved in Manning's trial, and some of it being closed to the public..........

Thanks for making the point.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
We are overlooking a key point in this discussion - that being that when one finds themselves living under a governmental system that no longer respects it's own laws - then we have a obligation to expose this government however we can.

Simply put - you spy on us - we hack you.

This is one option of self-empowerment left to the citizenry and is a provident, if somewhat unforeseen result of technology.

It is unfortunate that we as so-called "free citizens" have come to realize that our own government so fears and distrusts as to stoop to this degree of intrusion.

I cannot help but support the notion that if we do not expose and hopefully halt this denigration here and now - then we doom ourselves to further exploitation by a not-too-distant administration. One thing that history has shown as true is that once power is gotten, the urge to use that power becomes impossible to resist.

How long before we ourselves become "enemies of the state"?
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
Hedge - I think what confuses you about our collective concern with this situation boils down to trust.

Going back to Nixon, I have asked myself the question " How much trust do I place in my Government to hold my best interests in heart"?

Over the last decades, I have come to the conclusion that no elected official at the Federal acts in the interest of the "people".

I cannot help but feel that the actions are instead driven to satisfy the whims of themselves and those to whom they are financially beholden.

The sheer volume of money that passes through Washington originates from relatively few entities. Do you really expect me to believe that a return on that investment is not part of the transaction?

To ask me to trust our government is to ask me to trust a shell organization funded by corporations and private donors marketed to the consumer as efficiently and effectively as the latest new car.

Wrapping this turd in the flag doesn't male it less of a turd.




WBraun

climber
Jul 2, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
These apparatus will be abused by the very people we're told we have no business overseeing

It's not will be abused.

It's has been abused for a long long time.

This knowledge has been known for a long long time to begin with.

Very long time.

Naive people here .......

Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 3, 2013 - 12:02am PT
Holy crap man - how do you keep justifying covert actions agaisnt US?

"We The People" - remember that one? I'm sure you have at least one bumper sticker on your truck with those words.

From the scope of Snowden's revelations, we are no longer talking targeted covert surveillance on confirmed enemies - we are talking about broad spectrum spying on every man, woman, child and pet in the entire continental United States.

Are we ALL under suspicion? Are we ALL worthy of covert surveillance just in case we are up to something? How soon before this hidden monolith decrees another class of people to be "terrorists"?

I dare say that most on this site have a living relative who recalls when we decided that Americans of Japanese descent were considered a "threat". And that one was easy to pull off since you could look at them. Now that our faces are digital, how easy it would be to construct a threat from selective editing of innocent phone calls, emails, and chatroom postings.

Who will our next enemy be - a political affiliation, a lifestyle choice, an economic class, you, me?




Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 3, 2013 - 12:06am PT
Hey rsin - I think we signed that one away with the Patriot Act.


WBraun

climber
Jul 3, 2013 - 12:22am PT
Can some one post that if it exists?

Are you guys really that lame?????

It's been coming out for years.

You guys really are lame and naive.

Un fuking believable.

Sheep ....
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 3, 2013 - 09:48am PT
No good deed goes unpunished.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 3, 2013 - 10:58am PT
They're monitoring public interactions, not private conversations. Constitutionally no different than the example I gave - watching 2 people talking from 100 feet away.
    jhedge


Joe, care to take a closer look? Is their spying still valid from your POV? How far would they have to go before you thought something wasn't right?



PS. Dingus, those are a few very nicely written posts; good on ya!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:00am PT
Riley, as has been said--and roundly believed--the NSA chiefs lie for a living.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Come on Lovegosoline, don't you understand? They do it in secret, in the name of security, so it's all OK.

Can't you think of other successful governments that lead in this way?
crøtch

climber
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:09am PT
NSA chief admits lying

He's lying in his admission to lying. Claiming his answer was erroneous. It was not an error, it was a lie. At least the media is placing "erroneous" in quotes. Earlier he said it was the "least untruthful answer" he could give.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:12am PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:20am PT
Has Obama lied ever ?

riley,
you are really out of touch arent you?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:23am PT
So many morons out there and way to much technology.

which is exactly the problem with "trusting" the government to do the right thing.

you and hedge would have a fit if a republican were in office and this fiasco was going on.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 3, 2013 - 11:29am PT
So the cat's out of the bag. Persistent surveillance, the thing that most suspected all along. Now, like in all those crazy cop shows, they can zoom in and replay any conversation, txt, email, whatever.

Still, the size of the data capture is mind boggling.

Once you conceptualize it, there's really no going back. It's ubiquitous knowledge that every communication you make through a wire is subject to court review. And don't forget that because the whole operation is classified, those are secret courts that review your communications.

Why should anybody, but the "bad" people, be worried about that?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 3, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
Earlier than that, even. The Euro parliament investigated the 'echelon' system a long time ago, and for a short time were extremely concerned. Then, life gets back to normal, as there are all kinds of scandals all the time. Snowden has dramatized it and turned it into a kind of international car chase, but the info was online for all to see. Around 1998, I made a website about echelon, back when there were really no websites about anything. It has the Euro Parliament report, one of the original 'cypherpunk' documents, called the Crpyptography Manifesto, and I also scanned in a number of articles so they wouldn't disappear from history. Someone was kind enough to archive it for me, so it has not. http://www.mega.nu/ampp/paulwolf/echelon.htm
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

U.S. Postal Service Logging All Mail for Law Enforcement

every aspect of your life is being monitored...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
hedge,

gald i am irrevelant to you. thats a compliment coming from one who operates on two brain cells.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
I'm gald too

galled or glad?

either one are too high on an emotional scale for your two brain cells to comprehend.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
hedge,
you have nothing to fear from being monitored. they have already determined that you are too stupid to hurt anyone other than yourself. rest easy.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jul 3, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
From this morning's NY Times: "U.S. Postal Service Logging All Mail for Law Enforcement"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html?hp&_r=0

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 3, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
who's to say that 9/11 would have been found out and prevented IF all this NSA surveillance stuff had been going on back in 2001?

they claim that some 50 terrorist planned attacks on various US infrastructure sites have been prevented already, maybe they are lying about some but again who knows?

I can see this both ways.........
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 3, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
here riley.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20130702/182000045/Snowden-Slams-Obama-Over-Interference-in-Asylum-Bid.html


“On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case,” Snowden said in his first public statement since fleeing Hong Kong eight days ago and posted late Monday on the whistleblowing website WikiLeaks.

“Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President [Joe Biden]to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions,” Snowden said.

“This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me,” he added.

our governments communications on this issue is pathetic.

they can't even keep the POTUS and VP on the same page.


an obama lie. it was all over the press. but with your narrow mind its easy to see how it flew by you.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 3, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
The digital age has changed the notion of privacy and our laws and constitutional protections need to adapt, or the liberties already lost will never be regained. Basically HIPPA law extended to cover ALL personal data.

That's what the Privacy Act was supposed to be, back in the 1970s. I think it worked at first but now every law passed, every watchlist created, every national security anything of any kind, is exempt. It's the first thing they do with anything related at all to security, is make it exempt from the Privacy Act. It's not rocket science to undo all that, but it will still take a big change in the thinking of the US public, which only cares about Muslim terrorists and Mexican immigrants.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 3, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
First it begins with politics or politicians having an agenda. If you don’t know by now well that’s your problem. Political agendas or is it Power. It’s both.

Oh! And by all means lies, and lying about lies; never about the TRUTH. Most things hidden are designed to protect reputations and their stupid mistakes & allow the American public to be fooled more smoothly -- not too hard to do.

But I guess it doesn’t bother you if Google knows where you are, where you live and who you sleep with. Corporate Government one of many.

Go to a gas station, fill up with your credit card, get cash from a debit machine in front of your bank or another one like at 7/11 just need to pay fee, maybe pay your groceries, stay at a nice Hotel or Motel 6 where they take a photo of your id, pay online for guns, ammo…..What is so great or no problem: 2 seconds and you are approved unless you are one of those that went over your limit. 2 seconds and you are on your way happy to get out of the crowd of the same people that are doing the same.

Most of us had to fill out the census report a couple of years back. You own a home, rent, own a car or paying with monthly payments, cell phone, pay for electricity, gas.

Where does all that information go to: You would think to the individual institutions; nope, goes to one of those Military contractors that have the massive machines to collect that data so everything is correct? It is even better if they cannot spell your name right which can be a plus for you. FBI, you think they would get it right but boom a bomb goes off because of a misspelled letter or first name.

Yes, good old Corporate America.

Now for the US government secret Data Machine: NSA well that’s just one, MI: Military Intell another that subcontracts out in who is who, what and for some reason with the same people that holds the data or info for other reasons.

Guess you do not care about your rights when the cops; as in a cop pulling you over for a ticket and taking control of your laptops, smart phone data/information without you even knowing about it. Guess you do not care if he says I want a DNA sample since you are suspicious of something you said and he did not like the response and feels you are a threat. You think the courts will believe you or the cop?

2015 cops will have “liar, liar pants on fire” with their voice stress pocket-calculator sized electronic as part of their gear. So when you say two beers, color does not correspond, how many beers again, OK three, same color, Officer then says how about 6 beers and the light finally turns green. Ticket, DNA sample and photo taken with new Facial recognition camera: the ones that they used in Afghanistan that takes every blood vessel, eye, skin and shape so to put it there data base for future use.

All that equipment that is coming home that contractors were using to “fingerprint the body”: and where is all the surplus going to be stored? For the next war: no since there is better and faster data software that will be procured just need to tweak the tweaks. As for the older gear [4 years old] state and local governments get it. Drones have you seen any lately: small ones not the ones with the rockets.

Sure no biggie they are looking for terrorists, what are you worried about as long as you did or have in the past told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Why is or just today they said Data will be stored in the state of Utah. S%it, Mormons have data on everyone and has been collecting it for years. Rumor was 30 years ago a CIA head chessie was a Mormon and what better way to collect info. And that was just for US citizens. Ask a Mormon how they feel about Commies or just about anything and if you are not a Republican, do not think like a Republican you are on a list with lettering next to it. Romney rings a bell. What was on his hit list to get rid of, he mentioned one but wonder what else but he is long gone well for now.

So back to: it begins with politics or politicians having an agenda. If you don’t know by now well that’s your problem. Political agendas or is it Power. It’s both.

Let assume it is election time new leaders: Only two choices: R or D. maybe 6-7 years from now but let’s go back to the last election and the same people that have argued 50 years ago and argue today the same issues: Gay rights, marriage, abortion, and those things that are American or is it un-American. Apple pie is safe as well as baseball.

But let’s discuss those players and the players to be or could take charge, tried lost but try and try again till they get in.

Koch brothers spent millions of their own funds {PAC] to defeat Obama why: regulations they don’t want no stinking regulations, they created and still do talk about no such thing as global warming; Made a half a dozen films or propaganda films on the subject. Fool the Americans; fool everyone, allowing the American public to be fooled more smoothly.

Accordingly, here are 10 facts that every American should know about who the Kochs are and what they're doing to our country.

1. Koch Industries, which the brothers own, is one of the top ten polluters in the United States -- which perhaps explains why the Kochs have given $60 million to climate denial groups between 1997 and 2010.

2. The Kochs are the oil and gas industry's biggest donors to the congressional committee with oversight of the hazardous Keystone XL oil pipeline. They and their employees gave more than $300,000 to members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee in 2010 alone.

3. From 1998-2008, Koch-controlled foundations gave more than $196 million to organizations that favor polices that would financially enrich the two brothers. In addition, Koch Industries spent $50 million on lobbying and some $8 million in PAC contributions.

4. The Koch fortune has its origins in engineering contracts with Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union.

5. The Kochs are suing to take over the Cato Institute, which has accused the Kochs of attempting to destroy the group's identity as an independent, libertarian think and align it more closely with a partisan agenda.

6. A Huffington Post source who was at a three-day retreat of conservative billionaires said the Koch brothers pledged to donate $60 million to defeat President Obama in 2012 and produce pledges of $40 million more from others at the retreat.

7. Since 2000, the Kochs have collected almost $100 million in government contracts, mostly from the Department of Defense.

8. Koch Industries has an annual production capacity of 2.2 billion pounds of the carcinogen formaldehyde. The company has worked to keep it from being classified as a carcinogen even though David Koch is a prostate cancer survivor.

9. The Koch brothers' combined fortune of roughly $50 billion is exceeded only by that of Bill Gates in the United States.

10. The Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs accused Koch Oil of scheming to steal $31 million of crude oil from Native Americans. Although the company claimed it was accidental, a former executive in this operation said Charles Koch had known about it and had responded to the overages by saying, "I want my fair share, and that's all of it."

That last quote -- "I want my fair share, and that's all of it" -- encapsulates the unbridled greed driving the Kochs' political activism and business dealings. Democracy cannot thrive with so much power being in the hands of men like this. If we care about democracy, we have to work to take it back.

That is one: By the way Fred Koch the father was one of the founding members the John Birch Society. Just one of: “group of 12”.

Next group: The Council for National Policy (CNP)

It is an umbrella organization and networking group for social conservative activists in the United States. It has been described by The New York Times as a "little-known group of a few hundred of the most powerful conservatives in the country," who meet three times yearly behind closed doors at undisclosed locations for a confidential conference.[1] Nation magazine has called it a secretive organization that "networks wealthy right-wing donors together with top conservative operatives to plan long-term movement strategy."[2] It was founded in 1981 by Tim LaHaye as a forum for conservative Christians seeking to strengthen the political right in the United States.[3]

The CNP describes itself as "an educational foundation organized under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. We do not lobby Congress, support candidates, or issue public policy statements on controversial issues. Our over 600 members include many of our nation's leaders from the fields of government, business, the media, religion, and the professions. Our members are united in their belief in a free enterprise system, a strong national defense, and support for traditional western values. They meet to share the best information available on national and world problems, know one another on a personal basis, and collaborate in achieving their shared goals."

The CNP was founded in 1981. Among its founding members were: Tim LaHaye, then the head of the Moral Majority, Nelson Bunker Hunt, T. Cullen Davis, William Cies, and Paul Weyrich.[4]

Members of the CNP have included: General John Singlaub, shipping magnate J. Peter Grace, Edwin J. Feulner Jr of the Heritage Foundation, Rev. Pat Robertson of the Christian Broadcasting Network, Jerry Falwell, Senator Trent Lott, Southern Baptist Convention activists and retired Texas Court of Appeals Judge Paul Pressler, and the Rev. Paige Patterson ,[5] Senator Don Nickles, former United States Attorneys General Ed Meese and John Ashcroft, gun-rights activist Larry Pratt, Col. Oliver North, and philanthropist Else Prince, mother of Erik Prince, the founder of the Blackwater private security firm.

CNP members have taken millions of dollars from Rev. Sun Myung Moon, the founder of the Unification Church and the conservative Washington Times newspaper, and are aligned with various other groups supported by him such as CAUSA International.[12] Moon's religious message places him as superior to Jesus Christ. Moon was crowned "King of Peace" in a ceremony in the United States Senate Office Building, (not before the actual United States Senate).[13] CNP members have also supported legislation proposed by the Church of Scientology.[6]

CNP also has membership links to the World Anti-Communist League, whose many other members included, among others, the Unification Church and backers of rightist paramilitary death squads in Latin America, particularly during the 1980s.

Bla,bla,bla……………

Read or go online yourself it will take an hour here and there but follow the trails:

And yes the death squads what would we do without them: Reagan hated anything to do with Nationalism or the thought of it. “School of the Americans” [SOA] even though started before him hence the Rand publication on Peru I posted a few back. He was the worst. It was it be about creating an experiment and looked at one time could have gone right but someone made sure it would not. Our or your Government in South America made sure of that.

As for murders and killings in Africa:

Let’s see when South African “Madiba” [Nelson Mandela] passes away which will be a loss to a great man and great leader: Reagan did nothing and thought he was an Assh&le and the problem and not the solution. More murders, killings of innocent peasants with death squads created and funded by the US and His ass$ole crew and funding dictators: a favorite word at the time. But let’s see what Fox news and all Republicans that loved Ronnie say when Madiba leaves his country better when he got out rather that Reagan made sure he stayed in prison?

How about President Cheney? It was not until the last year of Bush years in office when you could call Bush the president. Lies again.

But this is what I am concerned with no tin foil hat: do your homework follow the trail it is right in front of you.

The Far Right Wing of the Republican Party beginning with those above and more that are on the list will change everything we know about rights and freedoms: One nation under God and it will their god
.
The Data will go from terrorist to people that do not believe in god and not any god but their god, no abortion clinics and if anyone found having one jail for life, gays well bye, bye so long take it easy that will change with Ring Wing extremists judges and the Supreme corporation.

There will lists alright and if you go overseas like maybe to climb in one of those nice areas in Asia or in South America: Erik Prince and his R2 crew of Columbians or Africans that are paid a dollar a day will look to see if you are carrying a bible or you are not. But they have a data sheet already about you before you left and knew that you did drugs at some time years ago or protested about the Tea Party.

You will coming home in a body bag and the new State Department that they created will make sure they will tell your next of kin with lies on top of lies that you were shoot by member of a cell group with Al-Qaida. They will have photos to show to cover up their tracks.

Their religious [Theocracy] revolution will not last long since there are people in the same business that know what is right and wrong and the truth will come out.

Could be Snowden knows this already; will find out soon but for what he has done the discussion just might enlighten some to think what could happen if data gets in the wrong hands and is abused.

Abused sure it will never happen, why are we always is court.

The News or Media is controlled by Big Corporations. Take a look at Comcast and see there collection of companies that control what you read and see.

Time Warner, Bank of America, the list keeps going and going ...............Misinformation to fool or control the people.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 3, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Thirteen minutes of lies.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Jul 3, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
True to form Hedge-mony presents us with more govt. media supplied regurgitated watered down whitewash.

Since he doesn't know how to use the internet.

Instead we get brilliant logic as example: asbestos is good and keeps your house insulated in relation to the use of drones.

Being Goebbels lackey is fitting for such.

He trained you well .......





Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jul 4, 2013 - 12:22am PT
Try to stay current Riley -

From this week's Wired Magazine: "Courts Can’t Agree on Whether Cops Can Track Your Cell Without a Warrant"

Federal law enforcement agents have been using warrantless cell-tower locational tracking of criminal suspects in the wake of the Supreme Court’s ruling 18 months ago that they need probable-cause warrants from judges to affix covert GPS devices to vehicles.

I will add this a second time - in 1998/99 the major Telco I worked was mandated to allow both the FBI and the local PD/Sheriff to install data monitoring lines directly into the Central Control and Monitoring panel of the master phone switch in all Central Offices in North America. Hard to ask for a warrant when they could look anytime without a warrant or even without us knowing they had done so.
WBraun

climber
Jul 4, 2013 - 12:31am PT
Courts Can’t Agree

Of course they can't.

They're stupid mental speculators.

They have no one ultimately in charge nor do they know who is in charge.

They have no soul ........
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 01:48am PT
http://www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/video/2425523/

Frightening interview of 3 previous NSA whistleblowers and their attorney by USA TODAY
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 02:35am PT
Wherein William Binney, one of the "whistleblowers", calls Snowden a traitor for exposing field op-sec, which is what I and Riley have been saying all along.

You take this out of context...he says Snowden should be tried AFTER all the executives at NSA, DOJ, and the White House
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 02:50am PT
William Binney, NSA whistleblower, says spy agency is
violating U. S. Constitution in gathering phone, email and other digital
information from Americans inside the United States. Binney
worked 32 years for NSA and was considered one of NSA's best
mathematicians and code breakers until he left the agency in protest
after 9/11 and its policy change under Pres. George Bush to spy inside
the U. S. without warrants. William Binney spoke at the 2012 DEF CON
Hacker's Conference, July 26-29, 2012, at the Rio Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 10:50am PT
http://www.zdnet.com/eu-to-vote-to-suspend-u-s-data-sharing-agreements-passenger-records-amid-nsa-spying-scandal-7000017635/?s_cid=e589&ttag=e589

EU to vote to suspend U.S. data sharing agreements, passenger records amid NSA spying scandal

Summary: The European Parliament will vote — ironically of all days, on U.S. Independence Day on July 4 — whether existing data sharing agreements between the two continents should be suspended, following allegations that U.S. intelligence spied on EU citizens.
WBraun

climber
Jul 4, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Where did all Hedges Goebbels gerbils go?

Too busy in their bunkers monitoring stupid phone calls to Lindsy Lorain.

Maybe their man slipped away? Maybe not?

Ho man how would the the Goebbels gerbils even know?

http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/06/27/tracking-snowden-russian-jet-landed-in-iceland-early-this-morning/

http://www.flightradar24.com/#!/2013-06-25/07:10/95005

Where's waldo?

NSA is real busy keeping up with the Kardashians .....

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 4, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
nsa official off the record...

"certainly we havnt done a think to help protect the american people from terrorism... but we SURE have gotten a leg up on preventing the american people from suscessfully rebeling when they figure out that their country has been auctioned off and is being sold for parts"

Yeah, that's really credible.

An NSA official, expert in information, who cannot spell or use a keyboard.

Yah gotta stop quoting Rush anonymously......
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 4, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
You're a cliche held together with a noxious angry attitude and poor self control.

straight out of a Hollywood roast, beautiful

I feel like I am a pair of brown shoes in a closet full of tuxedos
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Jul 4, 2013 - 03:37pm PT
Lessen # 2 shooting fish in a barrel.

Pull trigger bullet hits water and deflects & quickly runs out of steam - fish missed.

"Think through what you post, lest you end up proving yourself wrong. Which you did".
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
jghedge, this is not the first time on this thread that you have misrepresented the facts to support your disinformation campaign.

The people being interviewed were very senior NSA officials, and they state in agreement that their attempts to work through channels had failed and Snowden's direct approach to the press had worked to bring attention to illegal programs and initiate a national dialog.

And yes they do agree that he should be tried for revealing too much, but only after all the responsible agency officials are tried first.

You are intentionally trying to mislead someone who hasn't taken the time to view this important interview.

Your motives are suspect and your arguments are boring.

Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
The people being interviewed were very senior NSA officials, and they state in agreement that their attempts to work through channels had failed and Snowden's direct approach to the press had worked to bring attention to illegal programs and initiate a national dialog.

Except, of course, that there are no "illegal programs." We've been over that ground many times.

Curt
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Lessen # 2 shooting fish in a barrel.

Pull trigger bullet hits water and deflects & quickly runs out of steam - fish missed.

Lesson #3. Don't assume.

They never bothered to mention what weapon they were going to shoot fish with, you assumed a firearm. Some shoot fish with bows and arrows and some shoot them with spear guns, both of which pierce a plane of water effortlessly.

"Think through what you post, lest you end up proving yourself wrong".
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
Stalin did it, let's do it!

See, that's where you lose the argument. Right there. To equate Stalin's murder of millions of Russians to our collection of telephone metadata is completely senseless.

Curt
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Can American democracy survive its betrayal by the government?
The unbalance among the three branches of government is threatening democracy.
Last Modified: 03 Jul 2013 08:36
Mark LeVine

Mark LeVine is professor of Middle Eastern history at UC Irvine, and distinguished visiting professor at the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at Lund University in Sweden and the author of the forthcoming book about the revolutions in the Arab world, The Five Year Old Who Toppled a Pharaoh.

Depending on your point of view, the last few weeks have sounded either a very loud wake-up call or the death knell of democracy in the United States, at least for the foreseeable future.

For the first time in generations, American citizens have been betrayed, and indeed, attacked, not merely by one over-reaching branch of government, but by all three. The actions of President Obama and the Congress as revealed in the the Snowden Affair, and the revelations of the NSA's activities it has brought to light, and now the Supreme Court's decision effectively to overturn the Voting Rights Act, show conclusively that Americans today can no longer trust their government to protect their most fundamental rights, either in principle or against the abuse by one or more arms of the state.

Every American child learns about the unique set of "checks and balances" laid out in the US Constitution, which established a tripartite division of power between the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government. This balance of power, whose history returns (in a much simpler form) to ancient Greece and Rome, was established precisely because the "Founding Fathers" held a deep distrust of the ability of those with political power to use it fairly and according to law, and not arrogate it or otherwise abuse it for their own individual or corporate benefit.

The separation of power and the checks and balances between the three branches of government it established ensured that the functions of making, executing and interpreting the law remained the provenance of the Legislative, Executive and Judicial branches respectively. Each branch have always had, as a core responsibility, checking any over-reach by one or both of the other two. At the same time, by placing supreme power at the Federal level, the Constitution (as laid out in Article VI), ensured that individual states could not act to ignore, undermine or violate Federal laws by enacting their own laws that either superseded or contravened them.

...what exists now in the US is a perfect storm of disempowerment of Americans by all three branches of their government when it comes to the most basic rights citizens can possess.
WBraun

climber
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
Hedge -- "I would argue ..."

Yep keep arguing like the Goebbles gerbil you are.

Always trying to gerbil your way up someones ass.

You have nothing, you don't even know WTF you're talking about.

Take a vacation before you gerbil yourself to death ......

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
...what exists now in the US is a perfect storm of disempowerment of Americans by all three branches of their government when it comes to the most basic rights citizens can possess.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
"For three presidential terms the Executive Branch has been firmly the hands of presidents and officials who believe that the government can contravene the most basic rights of any person - citizen or foreigners - as long as they can justify such actions in the guise of "protecting the American people" and other raisons d'Etat.

Congress, in theory should have checked such untrammeled Executive Power, most recently revealed by Edward Snowden's leaking of NSA and other Executive Branch surveillance and spying policies. But what the Snowden affair reaffirms instead is the reality that Congress has little will to oppose such policies and indeed by and large supports the military-industrial-intelligence behemoth that so threatens the rights of all. Given the corporate control of the Congress and the political process more broadly, there is little incentive for legislators to draft and/or support any kind of legislation that would protect and enhance the rights of individual citizens at the expense of state power or its corporate sponsors."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
" the Supreme Court. Here three cases in particular have enabled unprecedented constriction of the power of ordinary people vis-a-vis the political and economic elites who govern--better, rule--over them. The first is the Citizens United decision of 2010, which declared any restrictions on independent corporate campaign spending unconstitutional, thereby giving corporations equal rights and far more power than ordinary citizens. Next was the Clapper v. Amnesty decision this past February, in which the Court ruled in a case involving the surveillance programs revealed by Edward Snowden that human rights activists and journalists do not have the right to challenge secret FISA wiretaps that might collect their data, since they couldn't prove they were a target (an impossible standard since by definition the authorizations to collect data are secret). This ruling "jettisoned the bedrock requirement of the Fourth Amendment," in the words of Georgetown University Constitutional Law professor David Cole, by allowing the surveillance of individuals without any indication they were involved in wrongdoing. Finally, there is the effective overturning of the Voting Rights Act in Shelby v. Holder, decided last week, which will by most accounts ensure that Republican-controlled states pass legislation whose only result - whatever the putative intent - will be to make it much more difficult if not impossible for millions of citizens to carry out their most important democratic obligation."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
"Americans have no one but themselves to rely on to reassert control over a political system that was designed precisely to ensure this kind of stacking of the deck against citizens by their government wouldn't happen."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
It's hard to know how Americans can actually "take back their government," as Republicans and Democrats routinely urge them without a hint of irony, utilising any of the political and cultural tools presently available to them. But at least with the events of the last few weeks they can no longer say they didn't understand the full spectrum of forces arrayed against them. If that doesn't generate enough urgency to produce the kind of conversations and grass roots practices that can lead to new political models emerging, then the death knell of democracy as most Americans have for generations understood it has most definitely sounded.
WBraun

climber
Jul 4, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Hedge -- "it's that they're bringing false allegations of illegal/unconstitutional activity."

False allegations ... nope they are true and have been revealed for years.

But you don't know how to use the internet and only gobble up Goebbels lies since that's all you know how to find on the internet.

Brainwashed fool ......

Take a vacation and learn something.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 4, 2013 - 07:11pm PT

“I know the Brits are doing it. Those f*#king bastards INVENTED spying. They spy on their own mothers”

Half truth.

Call these guys and ask if they ever got/bought US electronic spotters. This guy came over here [2002?] since they still used the old three triangle system as in WWII to track/pick up a signal to buy newer or state of the art equipment.

As for other goodies sure he purschased others as in video screens [large], cameras and things that they or he felt would be good to use since the US is or if not close to being # 1 security issues, software and other electronic items. Other countries have equipment as well.

That was 13 years ago. Talk about the CIA, MI, NSA, FBI and trying to get Homeland Security set up was the biggest joke. It was keystone cops to the max and trying to work together. At least after the first day everyone who knew anything right knew where to end up for a drink and discussion: The closest Titty bar. Excuse me: Gentlemen’s bar. As for the USA Government trying to get their act together for the exercise an “F” or closer to – F on that day and the next, third day half of us left.

Did get a call back a few days later asking my opinion: I said it, she agreed since a few others felt the same but she agreed that that is why we need to know so we can learn for next time to correct the mistakes. That had to do with the ti… Gentlemen’s bar.

They are all the same even today: stupid but will get it right just more work. Ok! Maybe a “C’ but again still have a long way to go. It needs work since every mistake is not taken for granted; we learn. One works for the moment but might not for the second time.

As for the NSA: a good example: management or for a better word mismanagement and who runs the system. If there is abuse then fry the people responsible. Years ago two men that had access to blow up the world, well part of it with two separate keys and codes. Same here that needs to be done two/three people to make a decision what/who is correct to look at and why. Not just one. Two with opposing thoughts and monitored as well and. Problem you might only have seconds to make decision so training, training and more training.

So at least there is discussion about our rights and that's good but sure 70% will go back to what they care more of. American Idol or "You are going to Hollywood"
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 4, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
To equate Stalin's murder of millions of Russians to our collection of telephone metadata is completely senseless.

As we've gone over numerous times on this thread, they are storing much more than metadata.


Curt, why are you trying to tone down what is being done?
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:17am PT
As we've gone over numerous times on this thread, they are storing much more than metadata.


Curt, why are you trying to tone down what is being done?

So whatever else you say they are collecting is equivalent to millions being murdered?

What else is it that they are collecting anyway?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 5, 2013 - 03:29am PT
Why the Ruling Class is So Upset About Edward Snowden
by GARY LEUPP

I don’t have a weak stomach, but I confess that watching TV news does get me nauseated. So I do so sparingly. I have of course been following the coverage of the Edward Snowden story, just to see how opinion is being shaped.

In the days immediately after June 5, when Snowden revealed that the U.S. government daily collects meta-data of all phone call records in the U.S. and beyond, the cable news networks seemed puzzled about how to deal with the story.

They couldn’t very well denounce Snowden out of hand, lest they be accused of being shameless lackeys of the state (even though that’s in fact what they are). They all like to posture as “fair and balanced,” so they did initially pose the question: is Snowden a hero, or a villain?

Early opinion polls showed considerable support for Snowden’s action; a Time poll released June 13 showed 54% of those surveyed in the U.S. thought he’d done the right thing. Some unlikely people (Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck) called Snowden a “hero.” But that may be changing, as the networks now compete with one another to generate outrage—not at the spying, mind you, but at Snowden for violating the law. O’Reilly’s current position is that while a hero, Snowden should be placed on trial and judged by a jury. Which is to say, he should be apprehended abroad, brought back in handcuffs and treated to the same benefits of the U.S. judicial system enjoyed by a Bradley Manning or a Guantanamo detainee.

He broke the law! He told us: “Any analyst at any time can target anyone.”

“He took an oath,” thunders Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee (and thus someone complicit in the spying programs). What she means by this is that he broke his pledge, made when he became an employee of the CIA contractor Booz Allen Hamilton—which helps handle the massive effort to monitor all of us daily—to conceal any secrets he obtained as an employee. She is of course not referring to the oath he made at the same time, to uphold the Constitution of the United States, which says very clearly that “the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated…”

Snowden has not merely revealed that the U.S. government has forced service providers Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube and Apple to share all their records with itself, in the form of meta-data that can only be accessed for content following the issuance of warrants from (secret) courts, in order to thwart real or imagined terrorist plots.

He hasn’t merely shown that the NSA intercepts 1.7 billion electronic records every day (in order, of course, to thwart the terrorists). He has charged the following:

“Any analyst at any time can target anyone. Any selector, anywhere… I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge, to even the President…”

He is referring to tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of employees of the state security apparatus. (The numbers are of course secret.)

That was and is the main story. Obama may say, “No one is listening to your phone calls,” and acknowledge, now that Snowden has come forward, that the government “merely” has available for perusal (following clandestine court procedures that secretly authorize such inspection) all of your telecommunications addresses and locations, all of your email and online contacts, lists of all the sites you visit online such that an analyst may sit at his desk with this comprehensive picture of your life but no access to the content of your communications. That’s bad enough.

But Snowden indicates that those with that power can indeed gain access to what Bill Clinton recently called the “meat” of your communications. That is, every word you’ve spoken on the phone recently, or maybe for several years; or test-messaged or instant-messaged online; can be accessed by government “analysts” at their whim.

Now why should this bother anybody? A virtual industry of bloggers has mushroomed overnight, people boasting, in the wake of Snowden’s revelations, that they have nothing to hide. Why should anybody not doing wrong be concerned?

Well, recall how, in 2008, ABC News revealed that National Security Agency staffers enjoyed monitoring satellite phone sex involving U.S. officers in Iraq. It’s worth quoting at length.

“‘These were just really everyday, average, ordinary Americans who happened to be in the Middle East, in our area of intercept and happened to be making these phone calls on satellite phones,’ said Adrienne Kinne, a 31-year old US Army Reserves Arab linguist assigned to a special military program at the NSA’s Back Hall at Fort Gordon from November 2001 to 2003.

Kinne described the contents of the calls as ‘personal, private things with Americans who are not in any way, shape or form associated with anything to do with terrorism.’ [...]

Another intercept operator, former Navy Arab linguist, David Murfee Faulk, 39, said he and his fellow intercept operators listened into hundreds of Americans picked up using phones in Baghdad’s Green Zone from late 2003 to November 2007.

‘Calling home to the United States, talking to their spouses, sometimes their girlfriends, sometimes one phone call following another,’ said Faulk. [...]

‘Hey, check this out,’ Faulk says he would be told, ‘there’s good phone sex or there’s some pillow talk, pull up this call, it’s really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, ‘Wow, this was crazy,’ Faulk told ABC News.”

If that’s the way NSA analysts could deal with U.S. military officers in Iraq—fellow cogs in the system, fighting on behalf of U.S. imperialism—how much respect do you suppose they have for you and your privacy? For your security from their searches, their violations?

But the main issue is not your protection from phone-sex interlopers, but protection from those who want to do you harm. The FBI’s “Counterintelligence Program” (COINTELPRO), active from 1956 to 1971, collected information through wiretaps and other means with the specific objective of destroying civil rights and left-wing organizations. One of its stated missions was to use surveillance on activists to release negative personal information to the public to discredit them. In many instances the agents succeeded, and they ruined lives. And their abilities to do so pale in comparison with the abilities of Obama’s NSA.

Tens of Thousands of Spooks, with Access to Your Data

Snowden says that his personal history should not be the issue in the media, but rather his revelations. Certainly this is true. But his history is a part of this story. It shows that the monitoring of personal communications is so vast, requiring so much labor power, that those overseeing it enlist even high school dropouts without formal academic credentials to do what they do.

(I do not mention this out of any disrespect for Snowden. On the contrary, I think he’s obviously highly intelligent and plainly very competent at his former job. One can question the wisdom, judgment and political consciousness of Snowden at age 21, when he joined the Army as a Special Forces recruit thinking he’d fight in Iraq, as he put it, “to help free people from oppression,” or his subsequent involvement with the CIA. But I think he’s extremely bright, and more than that, at this point in his life, a real moral exemplar.)

What I mean is that the demand for “analysts” in this data-collecting apparatus is so vast that those running it are surely signing on some people who have excellent computer skills but little understanding of anything else, are control-freaks, bigots, voyeurs (like those referenced above)… And they have ready access to your information.

Just as one example of ignorance within this stratum: after 9/11 a friend of mine was visited by FBI agents inquiring about a recent computer game purchase. She and her husband answered all the questions posed, but she was astounded by the agents’ lack of sophistication. They asked where the couple was from; India, they replied. “Is that a Muslim country?” they were asked. My friend was both intimidated and amused by the visit. She’d assumed U.S. intelligence personnel would have some basic grasp of geography and history.

Imagine such people accessing your personal information with impunity, thinking, well, here’s a reason to investigate—and doing it even if only just to pass (well-paid) time at their desks?

Remember the “Information Awareness Office” under Admiral John Poindexter, set up by a mysterious agency in the Defense Department in January 2002, and its creepy “Total Information Awareness” program? The one with the weird icon of an eye atop a pyramid, staring down at the planet, illuminating the Greater Middle East? That was specifically advertized as a body to gather personal information on everybody in the country—phone records, emails, medical records, credit card records, etc.—so that all this could be made immediately available to law officials when required and without warrants. It generated unease, even during that period in which the Bush-Cheney administration was systematically using fear to justify all kinds of repressive measures. It was defunded by Congress the following year. But the mentality remained, and Congress notwithstanding, the machinery of “total” surveillance obviously grew, along with the culture of secrecy.

In 2004 there were reports, citing Russian intelligence, that the former East German spy chief Markus Wolf had been hired as a consultant by U.S. Homeland Security. I have not found confirmation of them (and Wolf is now dead.) But I thought at the time it was entirely plausible that the Bush administration would be willing to learn a thing or two about domestic spying from the experts of the former Stasi. What ruling elite has ever gained more total information awareness about its citizens than the old German Democratic Republic? And done it with such elegant legal scaffolding?

Legal, Like East Germany

As historians such as Katherine Pence and Paul Betts have shown, the GDR authorities operated within scrupulously observed legal constraints. One sees this in the film Das Leben der Anderen (The Lives of Others) produced in the reunited Germany in 2006. It depicts the surveillance culture of the former East Germany, leaving the viewer nauseated. As it happens, the protagonist, a popular writer and regime loyalist named Georg Dreyman, is subjected to meticulous surveillance. His home is thoroughly bugged; an agent reports on his conversations, visitors, love-making, etc. He is never charged with anything nor punished. At one point his apartment is raided on a suspicion that he’s authored an article critical of the GDR published in the west. He cooperates politely; nothing is found; the authorities leave money for the repair of furniture they’d torn up. Everything according to law.

I thought of that film while reading the lead Boston Globe editorial on June 13. It concludes that the “policies that [Snowden revealed], however objectionable, are properly authorized” while Snowden himself “broke the law.” Thus, you see, he’s not a whistle-blower but a criminal. The editors call for him to be placed on trial, as do virtually all mainstream journalists. I should not be shocked, but it is quite amazing to see Keith Olbermann’s successor, MSNBC’s “progressive” Ed Schultz join the crowd, labeling Snowden a “punk” and lawbreaker. (Chris Hayes however remains, somewhat timidly, pro-Snowden.)

The message to the masses is: How dare Mr. Snowden tell the people that they are virtually naked in the eyes of the state, that the U.S. of A. has become one huge airport body-scanner! Because in so doing he betrays state secrets, and helps the terrorists who will now take more precautions to escape surveillance.

And how dare he tell the Chinese that Tsinghua University and the Hong Kong headquarters of Pacnet have been hacked by the NSA, even as the U.S. has accused the Chinese of hacking (in all likelihood, in response to U.S. actions, and less effective, and on a smaller scale)! How dare he consort with the “enemy”!

U.S. to World: “You Must View Snowden as a Criminal, and Give Him Back”

Suddenly, the Cold War has reappeared. Snowden is charged with espionage, some of his critics alleging that he’s in the service of the PRC and/or Russia or other “enemies.” It in fact appears that Beijing and Moscow both were taken by surprise by this episode, and that both have attempted to handle Snowden’s unexpected presence carefully to avoid annoying the U.S.

But how should they respond to Washington’s logic, thoroughly embraced by the TV talking heads? “Look,” says the U.S. State Department, expecting the world to cower and obey. “This man has been charged with felonies. We’ve gone through the legal process, through treaties we have with other countries, to have him appropriately returned to face justice. We’ve revoked his passport, so he can’t legally travel, except to be returned to the U.S. So damn it, do the right thing. Turn him over!”

That’s supposed to be convincing? The media’s complaining of Russian “defiance.” Senator Chuck Schumer appeared on some show suggesting that Putin never misses an opportunity to “poke America in the eye” (referring no doubt to Russian refusal to cooperate in “regime change” in Syria, and refusal to toe the U.S.-Israeli line on Iran). But imagine if a Russian in the U.S. revealed to a U.S. paper that Putin had a massive surveillance program, and Putin demanded his immediate extradition for breaking Russian law? How would the U.S. public react?

Kerry’s talking tough. He’s demanding that Putin not allow Snowden to fly out the country (presumably to Ecuador via Cuba). His tough talk might explain the reported fact that Snowden missed his planned Monday flight out of Moscow. (Might he have threatened to force the Aeroflot plane to land in the U.S.?)

It all, in my humble opinion, boils down to this. The entirety of the ruling elite and the journalistic establishment are keen on defending the programs Snowden has exposed; keen on punishing him for his whistle-blowing; determined to vilify him as a punk, narcissist, egoist, attention-hungry ne’er-do-well (anything but a thoughtful man who made a moral choice that has enlightened people about the character of the U.S. government); feverishly working on damage control while anticipating more damning revelations; and determined to get those four laptops with their incriminating content back into the bosom of the national security state.

What sort of state is it, that says to its own people, we can invade a country based on lies, kill a million people, hold nobody accountable but hey, when one of us does something so abominable as to reveal that the state spies constantly on the people of the world, we have to have a “manhunt” for him and punish him for treason?

The Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, has the audacity to tell NBC News, “It is literally gut-wrenching to see” Snowden’s revelations… because of the “damage” they do to “our intelligence capabilities”! As though there were really an “our” or “us” at this point. As though we were a nation united, including the mindful watchers and the grateful watched.

No, there are us, and there are them. The tiny power elite that controls the mainstream press and cable channels, the corporations that dutifully hand over meta-data to the state (and then deny doing so to allay consumer outrage), the twin political parties, are sick to their stomachs that they’ve been so exposed.

We in our turn should feel, if not terrorized, nauseated.

GARY LEUPP is Professor of History at Tufts University, and holds a secondary appointment in the Department of Religion.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:01am PT
Records of calls (not content) simply aren't subject to 4th amendment protection, any more than a record of you walking down a public street is.
--jhedge

OK, but now that you know they are collecting the content too, how do you feel about the program? And why do you keep trying to dumb-down what the the NSA is collecting?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
Joe, you are acting a fool. It is not my privacy I'm worried about.


johnboy, in case you missed it (first posted upstream by Dingus):

Hints surface that NSA building massive, pervasive surveillance capability

By Greg Gordon
McClatchy Washington Bureau
Published: Tuesday, Jul. 2, 2013 - 4:36 pm

"WASHINGTON -- Despite U.S. intelligence officials’ repeated denials that the National Security Agency is collecting the content of domestic emails and phone calls, evidence is mounting that the agency’s vast surveillance network can and may already be preserving billions of those communications in powerful digital databases."

Link: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/07/02/5540897/hints-surface-that-nsa-building.html#storylink=cpy




Read the article and see what's up the NSA's sleeve. And no, it ain't legal, but you won't see anybody fight it because you can't sue the federal gov't. Especially if you're going against a secret branch that you aren't supposed to know about.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Interesting to note that the previous paranoia over metadata collection has been abandoned in favor of one that involves a smaller likelihood of your privacy being violated - voice analysis as compared to data analysis being by far the more time-consuming process.

Strawman. Who ever said anything about voice analysis?


Much more worried about a major pop center being nuked, and about the influence those who seem to think that's impossible might have, and how the consequences of them being proven wrong are one hell of a lot worse that the consequences of me being proven wrong.

Looks like the fear machine has gotten to you. Is it time to invade Iraq again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Joe, we can look at history and see how totalitarianism gov'ts held the population at bay through surveillance. In fact, we can look at our own gov't and see this very thing.


So far, terrorists have used small, improvised weapons. And you scream Nukes!


While I can point to history, you can only point to your out-of-control fear.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 5, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
The ACLU is suing the feds over this as we speak.

and damn right they should!

I have been an ACLU member for over 20 years and while I may not agree with every damn thing they do, they are constantly on the ball and fighting in court to protect American's Civil Rights

and make no mistake about it, many of today rights taken for granted were won in courtrooms by the ACLU

everyone should be a member
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jul 5, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
and make no mistake about it, many of today rights taken for granted were won in courtrooms by the ACLU

everyone should be a member

Worth repeating.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 5, 2013 - 02:59pm PT

Look Dick and I are trying our hardest to shred everything as fast as we can but you have to give my boss credit for being slow since he has heart problems. As for all the Iran crap and Rex 84 that is long gone.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 5, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
... and to the history of recent terrorist attacks and thwarted attempts here as well. Some of which were thwarted by the very program you're complaining about.

The success of the government programs should not be the sole means of evaluating them. Otherwise random home searches in high crime areas would become legal since they are sure to help reduce crime.

Of course the ends do justify some means but the people who worry about the feds getting out of control with spying on Americans are a necessary part of democracy. The ACLU is also an important part because without those people, who you might call paranoid, the government would do more national spying and we would have more surveillance; we would become oppressed. It is natural for the government to grow itself until it is out of control and only through extreme measures, like the ACLU and a small amount of paranoia, can be keep it as small as possible for as long as possible.

I have done nothing wrong. You might say that I should not care of the government is spying on me but I say that they have no reason to sly on me and therefore should not be doing it. Then again, I think that checkpoints to check for drunk drivers is unconstitutional since I am stopped without probable cause.

Be a little paranoid or they will eventually be after you.

Dave
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 5, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Lovegasoline, +1




Related:

Addressing the "bulk collections" of internet metadata conducted from 2001-2011 revealed last week, U.S. Senators Wyden and Mark Udall (D-Colo.), members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, issued a statement on Tuesday warning that intelligence officials misrepresented the effectiveness of the program. They wrote, in part:

Intelligence officials have noted that the bulk email records program was discussed with both Congress and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. In our judgment it is also important to note that intelligence agencies made statements to both Congress and the Court that significantly exaggerated this program’s effectiveness. This experience demonstrates to us that intelligence agencies’ assessments of the usefulness of particular collection programs – even significant ones – are not always accurate. This experience has also led us to be skeptical of claims about the value of the bulk phone records collection program in particular.

We believe that the broader lesson here is that even though intelligence officials may be well-intentioned, assertions from intelligence agencies about the value and effectiveness of particular programs should not simply be accepted at face value by policymakers or oversight bodies any more than statements about the usefulness of other government programs should be taken at face value when they are made by other government officials. It is up to Congress, the courts and the public to ask the tough questions and press even experienced intelligence officials to back their assertions up with actual evidence, rather than simply deferring to these officials’ conclusions without challenging them.

Spokesman Tom Caiazza added that Wyden "is deeply troubled by a number of misleading statements senior officials have made about domestic surveillance in the past several years."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 5, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Silly me...

you can sue the us government. now here is the kicker. you have to have their permission to sue them. as dumb as it sounds it is the truth

And this:

link: Suing Your Federal Government for Civil Rights Violations



In other, related, news:

As Manning's defense team prepares to present their case next week, they are hoping Manning's prospects have risen after the government was forced to close their portion of the trial with an "embarrassing admission" that the Army had misplaced Manning's military contract, the Acceptable Use Policy (AUP), which laid out the terms of his access to classified information.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jul 5, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Time to go secure. And yes you know what the key is already.

use
http://www.topsecretemail.com/encrypt_result.cfm
to decode the following

41B42202D7C57113908F5B85B9C999DF72BDEB55CCEEE9BD83B3DE8F8BBDF
6FC12831BA296EA528A827DA774D2D438E87B929995E1AB983DD38DAB0AD1B7A9AC


To decode the above:
1.copy and paste into the topsecretemail text box.
2. you need to remove one line break. Do a [backspace]
before the 6 at the beginning of the second line.

This is just a kindness so ST page does not think I posted a giant picture.

3. type in the unique decode key you have guessed. click decode now.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jul 5, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
72A799A3C6DD8FB0C5839C9D93E9EEFC5CDD5A99CD4609008A949E7D2BDEF5CB1EA8A55680DBEB9B9F9553A6CC9200906C0498DFD6EFCA51861F04955FC28E
FE3CB6866A72DF9782A5C690F556DE8C95A8748AC77DB988B8B25C8AC907864B518A89D3848FC740A7F09A1D1E99AEC2819C59FB464C801A919AB3FF06B8AD3B
11C8B41707CCF30F82FF58A478BCFEE11940868AECCA883F57B45BAC94A3965B0E925888D09B720152F9B69C88FC9B116D5B58C6B48E9D9F9D1EFC478E8442FB
D0F4B89E1391B48B0BD5B985018E13AE1F7FAB13905C49D69A3D41CE925914BF9EF3E95C3F52B6D5DD08FF899A868ABAD59089FC85569C9A51FE98509B9388269
D77ECBBD59A17AC70740799EF9FE5C6829CBD8ABD5F48BC868E35969B8F05B94BB2F0865D13FF189B8441ED10079EAE85E3559FB19D069886B7909012ED9F8985
449BD6AF97F79F809259977313BEB2F9138E97FE5F3B54A35E05FCC0



and yes do a [backspace]at the beginning of all lines but the first before
doing the decoding. For this post you'll need to remove 5 line breaks. Maybe easier to do that in wordpad then paste it into topsecretemail
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jul 5, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
7FAADCA98EDF82B2C585939981E9E3FB4CDD4A8498530F599F929333258ABCDE56BDA15FD988FC8ADE8050AACC9F1C9A7E
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Jul 5, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
johnboy, in case you missed it (first posted upstream by Dingus):

Hints surface that NSA building massive, pervasive surveillance capability

By Greg Gordon
McClatchy Washington Bureau
Published: Tuesday, Jul. 2, 2013 - 4:36 pm

"WASHINGTON -- Despite U.S. intelligence officials’ repeated denials that the National Security Agency is collecting the content of domestic emails and phone calls, evidence is mounting that the agency’s vast surveillance network can and may already be preserving billions of those communications in powerful digital databases."

I know I'm rather daft and inept, but isn't all of that just more "metadata"?
You said they were storing much more than metadata, and that's why I asked you what else it was that you thought they were collecting.

As we've gone over numerous times on this thread, they are storing much more than metadata.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
full of righteous idealism, and now is quite scared

gets my vote
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 5, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
His sentence has already begun.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
I feel quite safe being protected by 50,000 spook wannabees swiveling their butts in vast cubical partitioned offices, each bored to death hoping to come across a hot phone sex call they can all conference in on.
Job satisfaction is good at the NSA.

abrams

Sport climber
Jul 5, 2013 - 11:57pm PT
Hopefully you know something social climber or just trying
to scare us by revealing how well you've been brainwashed by their propaganda?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 04:30am PT
Edward Snowden is a whistleblower, not a spy – but do our leaders care?

Legislators and journalists alike have been cavalier in their condemnations of the man responsible for the NSA leaks

"According to US legislators and journalists, the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden actively aided America's enemies. They are just missing one essential element for the meme to take flight: evidence."

"When asked directly if there was any evidence that Snowden had cooperated with any intelligence service or American adversary, the administration and Congress declined to provide any. The office of the director of national intelligence, James Clapper, declined to comment for this story. The Justice Department and the House intelligence committee didn't even respond to inquiries.

By all means, consider Snowden a hero, a traitor or a complex individual with a mixture of motives and interests. Lots of opinions about Snowden are valid. He is a necessarily polarizing figure. The information he revealed speaks to some of the most basic questions about the boundaries between the citizen and the state, as well as persistent and real anxieties about terrorism.

What isn't valid is the blithe assertion, absent evidence, that the former NSA contractor actively collaborated with America's enemies. Snowden made classified information about widespread surveillance available to the American Public (Those documents were provided to the Guardian and the Washington Post). That's a curious definition of an enemy for US legislators to adopt."

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-spy
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 6, 2013 - 05:02am PT
"So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor."

Got it, kiddies? Those are NSA whistleblowers, calling him a traitor.

Joe, you certainly did cherry pick that one. Did you watch all the program? And read the transcript? You pick one quote out of the debate (okay, the quote before as well), when there was more to it than that. Disingenuous... you should be a tabloid journalist.

From what I got from the program, was that these three whistleblowers believe Snowden initially did the correct thing, though one of them expressed that he may be crossing the line now.

As for me, I am still not sure what to think of Snowden, but I am not going to jump on any bandwagon either way.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 6, 2013 - 05:08am PT
You keep blathering on about the one spy that was missed.

Jeez Rily Wyna, I trust you are not aiming that comment to me. I have hardly even contributed to this thread, and certainly never blathered.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 6, 2013 - 07:17am PT
seems likly that this loser traitor is going to end up in a country with much worse human rights record than the USA.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2013 - 10:35am PT
http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion/our-opinion/columnists-blogs/bart-hinkle/hinkle-commit-any-felonies-lately/article_58344fc1-7d4f-584a-8d16-36a1b1f2cdc0.html
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Riley,

I'm no expert, but could it be that you wanna quarrel? A little bit of drama on an ordinary day?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2013 - 10:45am PT
http://blogs.mcafee.com/consumer/android-malware-set-for-july-4-carries-political-message
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 6, 2013 - 11:21am PT
I have been following this stuff for years.

The experienced and nasty terrorists know that if you use a cell phone, you may go up in a puff of smoke.

There were no phone lines into Bin Laden's house. We caught him by following his courier, who would deliver info on thumb drive.

There is a history of Snowdens who were never successfully prosecuted:

Google Thomas Drake, William Binney, J. Kirk Wiebe. The New Yorker had a great article about Drake that was the topic of a thread here a few years ago. A must read:

Here is a short interview of Drake and Binney:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

These days, there is no place to hide.99.99999999% of the people who are snooped on have no reason to be suspect.

Another really interesting guy to follow is Jacob Applebaum, who is into stopping snooping of your data and wikileaks. He gets his computer searched every time he re-enters the country, and he is doing nothing wrong.

Here is the New Yorker story. It is a MUST READ.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1

Since Supertopo can be read overseas, it is searched and goes into NSA computers.

The danger here isn't terrorism anymore. That causes far fewer deaths than bicycles.

This information gets stored. So, you say, "I have nothing to hide."

Well, yeah, maybe you don't, but maybe an important political figure of yours is targeted. It is rife for abuse and you need to look no further back than J. Edgar Hoover, Director for life of the FBI. He spied on everyone, and had so much dirt on politicians and business leaders that nobody dared cross him.

WBraun

climber
Jul 6, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
The fact that you have no current examples

The abuses, blackmails, assassinations, murders, etc etc to these fact are everywhere well documented.

You are one stupid moron Hedge because you can't for the life of you research anything beyond your govt, spoon fed garbage that you continually obsessively project.

Take a vacation Hedge you've reached and are the extreme pinnacle of stupidity ....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Gotta love how the NSA's secret government spies completely vacuuming up and analyzing all of Americans' communications did squat to stop the Boston Marathon terrorists.

Then it took only four whole days to catch them...

...and in order to accomplish that, they only had to shut down an entire major American city.


What an effective, precise, and efficient law enforcement terrorist-catching-tool this NSA totalitarian spying-on-American-citizens is!

Quite amazing logic:

You have a program that is designed to do one thing, in terms of intel, and they you assign bizarre roles to it.

The NSA had nothing to do with Boston. They didn't shut the city down. They didn't carry on the search for him.

Sort of like complaining about our secret mole in the Chinese Govt: obviously a complete waste, because he didn't prevent Boston.

Duh!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
Legislators and journalists alike have been cavalier in their condemnations of the man responsible for the NSA leaks

"According to US legislators and journalists, the surveillance whistleblower Edward Snowden actively aided America's enemies. They are just missing one essential element for the meme to take flight: evidence."

"When asked directly if there was any evidence that Snowden had cooperated with any intelligence service or American adversary, the administration and Congress declined to provide any. The office of the director of national intelligence, James Clapper, declined to comment for this story. The Justice Department and the House intelligence committee didn't even respond to inquiries.

Well, what do you expect from a newspaper? They don't talk about evidence AT TRIAL, they want to do the trial in the media, where they don't have to follow rules of evidence, they don't have to give the other side the ability to rebut, nor have to be fair in any way.

And let's say Snowden gave information that allowed China to track down 2 out of 20 of our covert agents. This FOREIGN PAPER would happily publish that, letting the Chinese know that they had 18 left to discover!

THANKS A LOT!

No, the evidence they are talking about would definitely be classified, and OF COURSE no one is going to disclose that publically. It will have to be behind closed doors, just as is being done with Manning.

Why would America's intelligence apparatus disclose classified information to any newspaper, much less a newspaper that is FOREIGN?

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Joe, you certainly did cherry pick that one. Did you watch all the program? And read the transcript? You pick one quote out of the debate (okay, the quote before as well), when there was more to it than that. Disingenuous... you should be a tabloid journalist.

From what I got from the program, was that these three whistleblowers believe Snowden initially did the correct thing, though one of them expressed that he may be crossing the line now.

As for me, I am still not sure what to think of Snowden, but I am not going to jump on any bandwagon either way.

Patrick, the point is that just because he does something that the whistleblowers consider legitimate, it DOES NOT give him a pass on then doing something traitorous.

It is as thought Daniel Ellsberg, in leaving the pentagon, killed a guard to walk out with his papers. Does the nature of the Pentagon Papers give him immunity to murder? NO!

That is what the 3 previous "whistleblowers" are pointing out. He may have been ok in making the revelation about the surveillance (in their eyes), but EVEN IN THEIR EYES, he has gone on to commit what THEY consider traitorous actions, and not whistleblowing.
WBraun

climber
Jul 6, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
And what Snowden did was far worse than what was done to Plame.


Oh you would really love to think another such a stupid white washed assumption.

If you really knew the whole truth and publicity gave it you'd be mysteriously dead in a couple of days.

Man are you ever stupid Joe ......

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
Well, what do you expect from a newspaper? They don't talk about evidence AT TRIAL, they want to do the trial in the media.

So? You and some others are conducting a trial here in the town square. Got the rocks all piled up and ready to go, as well.

Sorry, buddy.
I'm not immune most slander and libel, like the media.
I'm not immune to US law, like the Guardian.
I didn't publish the US secrets, like the Guardian.
I don't make money by fanning the flames over this, like the Guardian.
The trial judge and jury will not read what we write, unlike the Guardian.
We are not personally, first person, involved in this, unlike the Guardian.

And let's say Snowden gave information that allowed China to track down 2 out of 20 of our covert agents.

Let's presume he exposed 0 of 20 James Bonds. Let's presume he exposed 5 of 20. Let's presume he exposed them all.

And then admit we will never know, ever, unless someone else spills the beans. Your presumptions are therefore worthless.

As are yours. but we don't get to decide. A judge and jury get to decide.

is your strategy to taint the evidence so it can't be used?
is your strategy to cause so much damage to US security that we can't tell what Snowden did?
is your strategy to prevent a fair trial?

Nice American!
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 6, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
The question of whether or not these programs are unconstitutional is a very slippery one.

First, to remind you, here is the 4th amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

There have been several attempts to sue the federal government over this, and they were tossed out due to lack of standing. Standing means that you have to show that you were harmed. Since it is top secret, and you have no idea if you are being harmed, it won't make it to court.

A federal judge did recently say that the "Security Letters" were unconstitutional. It will be very interesting to see how the supreme court looks at that. Security letters are where an agency makes you comply with some secret request, but you can't disclose its existence..ever.

The Fourth amendment is under attack, and has been since the Patriot Act was passed.

Hedge should have been born in East Germany. He would have made a great tyrant.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
The NSA is struggling not to explain with precision what they are not allowed to explain with precision

"She has posted a recording of the session on Soundcloud, which you can hear above, and posted a rough transcript on her blog, The Mob and the Multitude. Here are some highlights.

The session begins ...

Tahir: "Do you consider Germany and the countries that the NSA has been spying upon to be adversaries, or are you, right now, not speaking the truth?"

Recruiter 1: "You can define adversary as 'enemy' and, clearly, Germany is not our enemy. But would we have foreign national interests from an intelligence perspective on what's going on across the globe? Yeah, we do."

Tahir: "So by 'adversaries', you actually mean anybody and everybody. There is nobody, then, by your definition that is not an adversary. Is that correct?"

Recruiter 1: "That is not correct."

Recruiter 2: "… for us, our business is apolitical, OK? We do not generate the intelligence requirements. They are levied on us ... We might use the word 'target'."

Tahir: "I'm just surprised that for language analysts, you're incredibly imprecise with your language. And it just doesn't seem to be clear."

Later ...

Tahir: "... this is a recruiting session and you are telling us things that aren't true. And we also know that the NSA took down brochures and factsheets after the Snowden revelations because those factsheets also had severe inaccuracies and untruths in them, right? So how are we supposed to believe what you're saying?"

Even later ...

Tahir: "I think the question here is do you actually think about the ramifications of the work that you do, which is deeply problematic, or do you just dress up in costumes and get drunk?" [A reference to an earlier comment the recruiter made about NSA employees working hard and going to the bar to do karaoke.]

Recruiter 2: "... reporting the info in the right context is so important because the consequences of bad political decisions by our policymakers is something we all suffer from."

Unnamed female student: "And people suffer from the misinformation that you pass along so you should take responsibility as well."

Later still ...

Male student: "General Alexander [head of the NSA] also lied in front of Congress."

Recruiter 1: "I don't believe that he did."

Male student: "Probably because access to the Guardian is restricted on the Department of Defence's computers. I am sure they don't encourage people like you to actually think about these things. Thank God for a man like Edward Snowden who your organisation is now part of a manhunt trying to track down, trying to put him in a little hole somewhere for the rest of his life. Thank God they exist."

And finally ...

Recruiter 2: "This job isn't for everybody, you know ..."

Tahir: "So is this job for liars? Is this what you're saying? Because, clearly, you're not able to give us forthright answers. I mean, given the way the NSA has behaved, given the fact that we've been lied to as Americans, given the fact that factsheets have been pulled down because they clearly had untruths in them, given the fact that Clapper and Alexander lied to Congress – is that a qualification for being in the NSA? Do you have to be a good liar?"

Recruiter 1: I don't believe the NSA is telling complete lies. And I do believe that you know, I mean people can, you can read a lot of different things that are, um, portrayed as fact and that doesn't make them fact just because they're in newspapers."

Unnamed female student: "Or intelligence reports."

Recruiter 1: "That's not really our purpose here today and I think if you're not interested in that ... there are people here who are probably interested in a language career.""


I don't know what the moral is, but maybe: if you want a language career in the US, imprecision and the ability to ignore embarrassing imprecisions are two requirements.

I guess they are studying Cialdini - the art of influence - or maybe better: the art of manipulation.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
Riley

It's not crap, it's knowledge about the art of manipulation and it works: http://www.amazon.com/Influence-Science-Practice-5th-Edition/dp/0205609996/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1373143721&sr=8-2&keywords=cialdini+influence.

I guess the American government has more than just a few advisors who are mastering the art.

Myself I'm educated in the Chris Argyris tradition and ethics are important. I have read Cialdini just to be able to know when the mechanisms are working on me - which gives me a choice.

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jul 6, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Hedge. Have you read that New Yorker article?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 05:37pm PT
From the NewYorker article:

"Jack Balkin, a liberal law professor at Yale, agrees that the increase in leak prosecutions is part of a larger transformation. “We are witnessing the bipartisan normalization and legitimization of a national-surveillance state,” he says. In his view, zealous leak prosecutions are consonant with other political shifts since 9/11: the emergence of a vast new security bureaucracy, in which at least two and a half million people hold confidential, secret, or top-secret clearances; huge expenditures on electronic monitoring, along with a reinterpretation of the law in order to sanction it; and corporate partnerships with the government that have transformed the counterterrorism industry into a powerful lobbying force. Obama, Balkin says, has “systematically adopted policies consistent with the second term of the Bush Administration.”"

This is what is growing and is now made discussible because of Snowden's actions. I thank him for that. The institutional side of this should be discussed a lot more in depth and much more critically in the open.

Riley:

It's quite simple: The recruiters were given an opportunity to clearify and they didn't and they didn't say that they couldn't clearify. The imprecisions seem undiscussible for them and I doubt they are willing to discuss the undiscussibility. They are practising organizational defensive routines.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
Riley:

Sorry, here's the link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/shortcuts/2013/jul/05/national-security-agency-recruitment-drive
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
No my strategy is to reject 'shoot first ask questions later' coupled with 'what we don't know is good for us' and then multiplied by the utter speculative bullshit of citing 2 of 20 spies revealed to the Chinese. (Oh MY!)

Who is shooting? The Guardian? You're on the side of a foreign entity?

You ask for what would be an example, and when it is supplied, you decry it as utter speculative bullsh#t? You, sir, are a manipulative liar.

You KNOW that the damage has to be classified, for the reasons I mentioned in my hypothetical.

So you, the arch bullshitologist, decry the lack of evidence, when you know it cannot be supplied TO YOU, or the rest of the public. Go sit in the cell with Manning and Snowden, your friends, and Russia and China, your other friends.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 6, 2013 - 06:16pm PT
I think there's a half-hidden Democrat - Republican agenda going on in this debate. To clearify my position from the other side of the pond: I clearly and without doubt prefer Obama to Bush, but just because I prefer Obama to Bush, I'm not bound to support all of Obama's or the present US government's actions. There is no need to be reduced to a tool or a slave of any authority.

The Guardian is at present giving voice to a matter I see as important. In the long view I think the world will be thankful because The Guardian has given this a voice and a face, even America. Though some Americans at present see the reading of The Guardian as Un-American. Something that just makes me stunned...

And if the reading of The Guardian by the US government is considered Un-American: Are then the American and European readers and posters of articles from The Guardian by the NSA seen as potential terrorists and followed closely? Should we be scared? Is there an intention to scare people to silence?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
Not even Eugene Robinson thinks Unhinged is correct.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-we-can-handle-the-truth-on-nsa-spying/2013/07/04/76ef2c92-e408-11e2-a11e-c2ea876a8f30_story.html
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
I think there's a half-hidden Democrat - Republican agenda going on in this debate. To clearify my position from the other side of the pond: I clearly and without doubt prefer Obama to Bush, but just because I prefer Obama to Bush, I'm not bound to support all of Obama's or the present US government's actions. There is no need to be reduced to a tool or a slave of any authority.

The Guardian is at present giving voice to a matter I see as important. In the long view I think the world will be thankful because The Guardian has given this a voice and a face, even America. Though some Americans at present see the reading of The Guardian as Un-American. Something that just makes me stunned...

And if the reading of The Guardian by the US government is considered Un-American: Are then the American and European readers and posters of articles from The Guardian by the NSA seen as potential terrorists and followed closely? Should we be scared? Is there an intention to scare people to silence?

Really, Marlow?

Does the british collect information on America?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Looks like we we'll for the first time in a very long time have a court case over the THIRD CIVIL RIGHT.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/03/59061.htm

Any of the barristers care to opine?





TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
It is the first time the third has been used in a long time.

That's what makes the case significantly different.


But, the Third is one of the Bill of CIVIL Rights that the "progressives" use to declare its obsolescence.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 6, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
“[America’s intelligence gathering] capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left. Such is the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn’t matter. There would be no place to hide.

If this government ever became a tyrant, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology.

I don’t want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that [the NSA] and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return.”

Sen Frank Church, Meet the Press, 1975
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 6, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
US director of national intelligence James Clapper lied to congress under oath regarding NSA spying and somehow nobody wants to prosecute him. The same people who post here who justified the impeachment of Clinton for lying under oath are not disturb by lying about a much more serious issue.

Geez Nixon had to resign just for bugging and searching a psychiatrist's office and Bush and Obama bug the whole country and just shrug our shoulders.

The whistle blowers for the financial crisis, war lies, torture, and NSA spying all go to jail or are wanted but the perpetrators of those crimes all walk

Shame!

karl
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 6, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Geez Nixon had to resign just for bugging and searching a psychiatrist's office and Bush and Obama bug the whole country and just shrug our shoulders.

well Karl

there IS a very big difference in your comparisons that you seem to be missing

Nixon was personally involved in an ILLEGAL action that only he and his top aids knew of

Bush and Obama did nothing illegal and it was both houses of CONGRESS who voted and approved the NSA spying funding

so, not a valid comparison, obviously
crunch

Social climber
CO
Jul 7, 2013 - 12:22am PT
It's been fifty years since the days of Vietnam and the protests and civil disobedience of that era. Glad to finally have a new generation of youngsters with some spine.

We've all been getting fat and lazy and complacent--too comfortable.

Props to Manning, Snowden, Tim DeCristopher, Aaron Schwartz, and a few others who have been brave enough to confront and defy authority.

If not Snowden, now, it would be some other 20-some kid next year or the year after and the stink would be even bigger, even worse.

I'm psyched to hear of these young kids standing up for what they believe in. Especially psyched because what they believe in is pretty much the kind of society--open, free, transparent, with the government working for the people, that the US constitution's framers wanted to see.

Manning: "I want people to see the truth, because without information you cannot make informed decisions as a public."

Snowden: "This is the truth. This is what is happening. You [the public] should decide whether we need to be doing this."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2013 - 03:04am PT
it was both houses of CONGRESS who voted and approved the NSA spying funding

Then why did the NSA have to lie to congress about what they were doing. I contend that if we really knew the whole scope of what the NSA does in detail, we'd find that it was very much illegal, far more than anything Nixon did regarding watergate.

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Jul 7, 2013 - 10:34am PT
You jackasses created these very same terrorists.

Then set up a so called secret spy system to monitor for the same stupid terrorist that you originally created and you already know who they are since they're working for you.

See how fuking stupid you people are.

On top of it the same terrorists you created and say we have to protect ourselves from are hired by your same stupid leaders to be used for it's imperialism against other countries for their resources.

The system you retards have created has only created a sh!thole hell on earth.

Everything you retards touch turns to sh!t and and death.

Stupid fuking fools ......
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
"Also do you guys understand why this has to be top secret?
And why we are now far less safe because terrorists and would be terrorists now know about this ?"

Oh come on! Why do climber agree to be pussies when it comes to the bogyman? Wouldn't we be safer if climbing was just outlawed?

and is it really such a surprise to a terrorist that their communications might be monitored!?

All this NSA stuff is really about being ready to spy on Americans when the economy crashes for real and people realize we've been sold down the river

Peace

karl
WBraun

climber
Jul 7, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com

The officials said .....

And hedge gobbles it up and believes every word of their govt. spooled out media propaganda as usual.

You deserve to be raped my them .....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 7, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Then why did the NSA have to lie to congress about what they were doing. I contend that if we really knew the whole scope of what the NSA does in detail, we'd find that it was very much illegal, far more than anything Nixon did regarding watergate.

Peace

Karl

Karl, in your vision of a peace-loving America, isn't there a requirement for proof of wrongdoing, or is your vision about condemning people with no evidence whatsoever?

Or, do you envision a system in which a trusted few are in a position to examine those things which should not be revealed to the public?

OH! That's what we have!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 7, 2013 - 02:59pm PT
"America's National Security Agency works closely with Germany and other Western states on a "no questions asked"-basis.... " "They are in bed with the Germans, just like with most other Western states," German magazine Der Spiegel quotes him (Edward Snowden) as saying in an interview published on Sunday that was said to be carried out before he fled to Hong Kong in May and divulged details of extensive secret US surveillance.

"Other agencies don't ask us where we got the information from and we don't ask them. That way they can protect their top politicians from the backlash in case it emerges how massively people's privacy is abused worldwide," he said.

His comments about cooperation with governments overseas, which he said were led by the NSA's foreign affairs directorate, appear to contradict the German government's show of surprise at the scale of the US electronic snooping. "

Comment: What may be appearing is the governments and some large corporations of the western world cooperating to monitor their own peoples words and actions at the same time as they are trying their best to keep common people in ignorance of what they are doing and pretending to be upset because of the monitoring when common people get access to information about it. If so: They are building a system based on distrust to everybody and we are left with politicians trying to build an image of trusting their people and themselves being "trustworthy" by appearing surprised and upset when the monitoring is discovered.

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/07/edward-snowden-spiegel-nsa-germans
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 7, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
http://classicalvalues.com/2013/07/if-they-are-soldiers-then-what-are-we-the-enemy/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
Karl, in your vision of a peace-loving America, isn't there a requirement for proof of wrongdoing, or is your vision about condemning people with no evidence whatsoever?

Or, do you envision a system in which a trusted few are in a position to examine those things which should not be revealed to the public?

OH! That's what we have!

In my version of America we have this document called the constitution. The Fourth Amendment to it states

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The Fisa court never turns down a warrant and sometimes they go without them anyway.

The fact is, government power often seeks even more power and there must be a REAL check on that power or we could descend into the system we see and condemn elsewhere. We don't need to get in everybody's business to thwart a limited group of radicals who have managed to kill far far fewer people than aspirin since 9-11

Peace

Karl
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 7, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Condi Rice: But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.

Hedge: Would the loss of a major population center cause far fewer deaths than bicycles, I wonder


Looks like Hedge is going all GOP on us.

Hey Hedge, when are we gonna invade Iraq again?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 8, 2013 - 12:22am PT
Ten ways to dodge the spies
5:30 AM Saturday Jul 6, 2013

Runaway spy Edward Snowden has revealed how US intelligence agencies agencies snoop on everyday communications around the world. Australian academic James H. Hamlyn-Harris explains how to protect yourself online

Last weekend, the Washington Post published a further four slides, leaked from the US' National Security Agency (NSA), which outline how data is collected through the Prism program.

The process is fairly simple: after an NSA analyst identifies a new surveillance target and a supervisor endorses the analyst's "reasonable belief" (defined as 51 per cent confidence) that the target is a foreign national and overseas at the time, data collection can begin. Just say you're one of these new targets, or you simply don't want to be incidentally monitored. How can you minimise the amount of data you share?

Commentators generally agree the NSA's Prism technology is based on optical fibre "wiretaps" placed at the connection of internet providers to companies like Google, Yahoo and Facebook in the US. (Tapping the signal here gives the companies plausible deniability, as the tap occurs outside their premises - or maybe they just don't know, as they claim.) A copy of the optical signal is split off and routed to a room operated by the NSA, where it is indexed, categorised and shipped back to the NSA for analysis later. Most of the traffic on the optical fibre is transmitted using plain text protocols - packets which contain a plain text header (to and from address) and a payload (the message).

If the payload is encrypted, the NSA still have a good chance of decrypting it. The NSA spent US$2 billion ($2.5 billion) on a massive data centre in Utah, set to open this year, and have commissioned a second in Maryland. These could house enough computers to store the NSA's collection of intercepted traffic for years. Future developments in decryption could allow the NSA to decrypt the messages they are intercepting today.

Under the Patriot Act, signed into law in 2001 in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, US agencies have the authority to compel companies like Google, Yahoo and Apple to provide their private cryptographic keys to the NSA, allowing the NSA to decrypt secure traffic going through those companies. Under the same act, it is an offence to tell anyone it has happened. Even without the keys, some "secure" web traffic can be decrypted using brute force methods.

So here are 10 simple ways you can minimise the likelihood of the NSA (and other organisations) monitoring your internet and voice traffic.

1. Encrypt your internet traffic

In the URL field of the browser, type in "https://" before the domain name. Your browser will download a certificate from the website and use it to exchange a shared encryption key. From then on, all your traffic is encrypted. If you don't see "https" in the URL field, it's not encrypted.

2. Check the encryption used by the websites you visit

Not all websites use good keys or encryption algorithms. At ssllabs.com you can test the sites you visit and (politely) ask them to improve their security.

3. Disable internet use tracking

There are two possible approaches to preventing website tracking: black listing and white listing. Black list programs use lists of known spyware sites and block those activities. PeerBlock is one such program. NoScript is a white list system, and turns off JavaScript (a programming language that runs in your browser) when you visit a site unless the site is on the list. Most tracking uses JavaScript, so turning it off makes it harder (but not impossible) for the spies to track you.

4. Encrypt your files

If you upload files to the internet, you might want to control who reads them. An easy solution is to password protect them. Microsoft Office products provide the option of setting a password, but this is not particularly strong. Another approach is to put the file in a zip, rar or 7z container and set the password. The best approach is to use a serious encryption system that really scrambles the file contents with a really big key and a strong algorithm, such as TrueCrypt.

5. Trust no one

Do you use Dropbox? iCloud? Other cloud services? Do you have a password? If you do, so do they. If you forget your password, can they tell you what it is? Some cloud services offer accelerated uploads and syncing. They can do this because they know what you've uploaded. It also means they have the key and can provide it to the NSA. The only way to be sure is to encrypt your files before they leave your computer. Don't use the provider's encryption software. Use open source software, so any hidden back doors will be discovered. AxCrypt is a nice example.

6. Tunnel your traffic

Every message (or web request) you send on the internet has headers - with your address, the destination address, the date and time. Spooks can use this meta-data to link you to your friends and their friends.

Anonymising services and products attempt to obscure your web behaviour by mixing your traffic with other people's traffic and by "tunnelling" (encrypting) your traffic between locations. You install a proxy server or a virtual private network (VPN) client, which encrypts your traffic and sends it to another location, where it is decrypted. The NSA can read the traffic once it leaves the tunnel, but can't separate your traffic from the traffic of other users of the system. The more users there are, the more anonymous your traffic.

7. Secure your kit

To be sure your PC is free of all unwanted software, you can use a read-only operating system. There are many bootable Linux distributions that detect your hardware at boot time and contain a suite of pre-installed programs such as web browsers and VPN clients. Puppy Linux (really fast) and Privatix (really secure) are good examples. They reveal nothing about your computer and cannot be infected because they don't write to the hard disk.

8. Safe text

Texting with a phone is not secure. Skype chat is monitored by Microsoft. Email normally uses unencrypted protocols, and is not secure. Even sending emails through websites (with "https") is no guarantee of security because most mail servers communicate with each other using plain text protocols containing the message, sender and recipient. It is possible to install Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) - an "uncrackable" email encryption scheme - but the process is difficult at best. However, there are some solutions. Gateway devices can implement PGP at the edge of your network, allowing you to exchange encrypted email with minimal configuration. Phone apps such as Silent Circle and iChat can be used to encrypt text messages. CryptoCat does a similar thing through the web.

9. Anonymous searches

We all know Google caches our search terms and profiles us - it's how they generate revenue. But there are other search engines less interested in what we are doing. Duckduckgo and Startpage are examples of alternatives. Another option is to use a different Google (such as google.de or google.ca), or use Tor (anonymity software) or a VPN to use Google from a different country.

10. Voice

Smartphones are great, but are really little computers, and vulnerable to malware, phishing scams and a range of malicious phone apps. Skype voice encryption has been weakened by Microsoft to allow lawful interception. Probably the best option for voice security is the BlackBerry - if you are not in a country where the government has compelled Research In Motion (the company behind BlackBerry) to install a server so local police can intercept calls. NONE OF these suggestions can protect you from a really determined adversary, but they can make things more difficult. If the NSA really suspect you, they can always get a warrant and search your house the old fashioned way. Keep in mind, if you do successfully frustrate them (or law enforcement officers in other countries) there are laws which require you to reveal the passwords or keys used to hide potential evidence; disobeying these laws can result in prison sentences of at least two years depending on the jurisdiction.

• James H. Hamlyn-Harris is a lecturer at the Faculty of Information and Communication Technologies at Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10895039
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 8, 2013 - 12:57am PT
The Fisa court never turns down a warrant and sometimes they go without them anyway.

The fact is, government power often seeks even more power and there must be a REAL check on that power or we could descend into the system we see and condemn elsewhere. We don't need to get in everybody's business to thwart a limited group of radicals who have managed to kill far far fewer people than aspirin since 9-11

Peace

Karl

Karl,

The FISA court HAS turned down requests, so there is no need for hyperbole.

More important, but little reported, is that they materially alter MOST requests made of the court, generally in the form of limiting access, or restricting access to certain things.

This is why the Congresspeople you voted for, who are read in on the program approve of it, and don't feel there is a problem.

It is also why there is NO evidence of misuse in the 7 years of it's existence.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:32am PT
It is also why there is NO evidence of misuse in the 7 years of it's existence.


Ken, if there were misuse, how do you think you'd hear about it?

Seriously.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:44am PT
I dont see any kind of legislative or legal solution to this. The solution is technical. Build strong encryption into basic programs like internet explorer, google chrome, facebook, and so on. Everything on the internet should be a "https" secure connection, like when you use a credit card to buy something. Yes the NSA is building a massive database of everything they can about you, but other governments may be doing the same thing. There are all sorts of people who want to sell info for marketing purposes. I've played with PGP, triple DES etc. but it's inconvenient, and would only really work if the whole internet used encryption. Its necessary to preserve the internet as a safe way to communicate with other people.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:00am PT
Yeah, and even using encryption might actually flag you for special scrutiny

ie what you got to hide if you're trying to hide?

Peace

Karl
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:12am PT
It is also why there is NO evidence of misuse in the 7 years of it's existence.

Well that's the crux of the biscuit Ken. We wouldn't know because the FISA court operates in secret.

Re: cryptocat. In short, don't trust it:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/cryptocat.html

http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/07/bad-kitty-rooky-mistake-in-cryptocat-chat-app-makes-cracking-a-snap/
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 8, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Ken, if there were misuse, how do you think you'd hear about it?

Seriously.

Gosh, I would expect that our national hero, who had access to all of this, would have shown us----Snowden.

But he did not. He SAYS that he had access to people's emails and phone calls, but he has not produced ONE. Not ONE.

Hmmmm.

Things that actually are illegal would create real whistleblowers. But there have been none.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 8, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
On suppressing whistleblowers.

How about breaking into their lawyers offices?



The offices of a Dallas law firm representing a high-profile State Department whistleblower were broken into last weekend. Burglars stole three computers and broke into the firm's file cabinets. But silver bars, video equipment and other valuables were left untouched, according to local Fox affiliate KDFW, which aired security camera footage of the suspected burglars entering and leaving the offices around the time of the incident.

The firm Schulman & Mathias represents Aurelia Fedenisn, a former investigator at the State Department's Office of the Inspector General. In recent weeks, she raised a slew of explosive allegations against the department and its contractors ranging from illicit drug use, soliciting sexual favors from minors and prostitutes and sexual harassment.

"It's a crazy, strange and suspicious situation," attorney Cary Schulman told The Cable. "It's clear to me that it was somebody looking for information and not money. My most high-profile case right now is the Aurelia Fedenisn case, and I can't think of any other case where someone would go to these great lengths to get our information."

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/07/cameras_catch_mystery_break_in_at_whistleblowers_law_firm
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 8, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
TGT Daniel Ellesburg would tell you how quaint that story is now. America is a totally different country than it was then. I am a lawyer and am sure all my correspondence with clients is monitored. It takes me 5-8 hours to get through Homeland Security at the airport since they have to image my computer, usb and phone. I dont think I'm suspected of doing anything wrong, they just want to get "intel" about my cases. I've brought the matter to the attention of a federal judge, since sealed court materials were also copied, in violation of his order. It also takes me two weeks to arrange phone calls with my client in the Florence ADX. recording the conversation isnt good enough. They have to have an FBI agent listen real time and I have to wait until they get it set up. My clients have no privacy at all when seeking legal advice. I dont think anyone in the US actually does, at least for phone calls and emails.

If anyone doesn't understand how the fourth amendment works, let me explain. First, they get a recording of whatever they need, any way they can. Then they take it to a judge and get a warrant, then they try to get the evidence again, in a way that doesn't raise any eyebrows. If they can't they'll try to introduce the illegally-obtained evidence. That's all the 4th Amendment does. You have far more privacy in many other countries. Probably less privacy in the US than in most other countries.

Karl, I meant to thank you for your recipe idea months ago. Now I buy peanuts and raisins in bulk and put a handful of each into my daily dal bat.

 Paul


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 8, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
If anyone doesn't understand how the fourth amendment works, let me explain. First, they get a recording of whatever they need, any way they can. Then they take it to a judge and get a warrant, then they try to get the evidence again, in a way that doesn't raise any eyebrows. If they can't they'll try to introduce the illegally-obtained evidence. That's all the 4th Amendment does. You have far more privacy in many other countries. Probably less privacy in the US than in most other countries.

Sad, and hopefully obvious that the 4th ammendment isn't supposed to work that way. How does homeland security justify imaging your computer and phone? That's insane. How long has it been this way?

Karl, I meant to thank you for your recipe idea months ago. Now I buy peanuts and raisins in bulk and put a handful of each into my daily dal bat.

I suggested some nuts and raisins in the tasty bite, good cold on a wall too

Peace

Karl
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
Ken, if there were misuse, how do you think you'd hear about it?

Seriously.

Gosh, I would expect that our national hero, who had access to all of this, would have shown us----Snowden.


Ken, so you're saying that for us to know if the NSA is misusing and/or abusing its power, we need to rely on whistleblowers? And at the same time, you're rallying against the NSA whistleblower?

And I bet you think you're making sense too, right?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 8, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
It's been that way more than a year, thanks. I know a lot of good national security lawyers and work as a lawyer on K St in Washington DC, which is ground zero for lawyers. But have never met anyone who could help me with the problem. It's basically beyond the reach of the US legal system. If they want to spy on you, they will.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
He said no such thing.

Then Joe, perhaps you can help me understand what Ken said.


I asked how we're supposed to know if the NSA is misusing the info it collects. Ken responded that Snowden would have told us.

So, for us to know if the NSA is misusing the info it collects, we must rely on people on the inside, disclosing to the public via journilists, that the NSA is breaking the law.

How am I mistaken?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Joe, It's my belief that the NSA has stretched beyond what is legal in collecting information about US citizens, and thus they are breaking our civil rights.


FISC rulings have broadened the meaning of the word "relevant," moving further away from Supreme Court precedent that declared evidence could only be considered if there was a "reasonable possibility" that it could produce information related to an investigation.


If Snowden didn't leak, then we'd still be in the dark, so I'd say right there, before Snowden, there were millions who had their rights taken away without their knowledge. Thanks to Snowden, we all have a better understanding with how the Gov't is taking away our rights.


You know as well as I that the NSA is collecting more than just metadata--they are also collecting the meat, the content of the txts, email, phone calls. Otherwise the metadata is practically useless, and why would they spend billion$ on data centers that can store the content many, many billions of communications. The metadata takes only a fraction of the capacity of what they're building.


Ken made a statement that there have been no abuses of the information they've collected, but we have zero way of knowing if this is true or not. Even Ken revealed that the only way would would possibly know is if somebody like Snowden came along and risked his life to tell us.


I understand the desire to protect the homeland, but I also understand the ability to abuse the power that the NSA is assuming. And history shows many such abuses of power--don't be coy and say "Show me."


As for your question: are you trying to say that if we don't see it, it doesn't exist? In response to this contrivance of a question, I'm going to use a famous quote:

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.


Now I ask you, prove to me that they have not abused their power.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:11pm PT

The judge from Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian:


"Whatever exists, he said. Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent.
He looked about at the dark forest in which they were bivouacked. He nodded toward the specimens he’d collected. These anonymous creatures, he said, may seem little or nothing in the world. Yet the smallest crumb can devour us. Any smallest thing beneath yon rock out of men’s knowing. Only nature can enslave man and only when the existence of each last entity is routed out and made to stand naked before him will be properly suzerain of the earth.
What’s a suzerain?
A keeper. A keeper or overlord.
Why not say keeper then?
Because he is a special kind of keeper. A suzerain rules even where there are other rulers. His authority countermands local judgements.
Toadvine spat.
The judge placed his hands on the ground. He looked at his inquisitor. This is my claim, he said. And yet everywhere upon it are pockets of autonomous life. Autonomous. In order for it to be mine nothing must be permitted to occur upon it save by my dispensation."


"The judge smiled. It is not necessary, he said, that the principals here be in possession of the facts concerning their case, for their acts will ultimately accommodate history with or without their understanding. But it is consistent with notions of right priniciple that these facts – to the extent that they can be readily made to do so – should find a repository in the witness of some third party. Sergeant Aguilar is just such a party and any slight to his office is but a secondary consideration when compared to divergences in that larger protocol exacted by the formal agenda of an absolute destiny. Words are things. The words he is in possession of he cannot be deprived of. Their authority transcends his ignorance of their meaning."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 04:22pm PT
In digital era, privacy must be a priority. Is it just me, or is secret blanket surveillance obscenely outrageous?
    Al Gore
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
Joe: OK, we have no proof that they are collecting more than metadata. But, if the NSA is collecting the content of phone calls, txts, emails, etc; would you agree that that is an egregious violation of our civil rights? I think many people would call that a civil rights violation (illegal search).

OK, right now, if the NSA is collecting content, then they are violating the civil rights of millions without their knowledge.

Remember this, because as DMT pointed out above, there is growing evidence that the NSA is collecting content. Someday, if it comes to light that they are collecting this content, then you will have one big-added point of proof that civil rights can be violated without your knowledge.


There are a lot of people who lie and get away with it, and that's just a fact.

    Donald Rumsfeld


Now, where's your proof that they are not abusing their power.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 8, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
You do understand that the word "privacy" is never mentioned in the constitution?

Joe, that quote reminded me of one of the funnier incidents in the Roscoe Pound Moot Court Competition at UCLA. A few years after Justice Powell wrote his opinion in Roe v. Wade, he came to the Law School as one of the judges in the final round of the Competition. The issue there was about an alleged constitutional right that was not specifically enumerated in the Constitution. (I'm sorry I don't remember what it was, but I didn't compete until a couple of years later, so I don't remember the exact issue.)

In the course of oral argument, Justice Powell interrupted one of the competitors and asked "Now just where do I find this right in the Constitution?" The competitor replied, "The same place you found a right of privacy in Roe v. Wade, your honor." Then he paused, so the full horror of how he'd responded could sink in.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 8, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Even if there was an amendment guaranteeing right to privacy - it wouldn't help in this case, w/o redefining what privacy actually is.

Truth. We can argue about what the law should be, but Joe correctly states what it is.

John
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
WHICH ONES? WHICH RIGHTS? NAME THEM!!!!!


I am obviously out of my depth here. I thought the 4th amendment gave me some rights.

The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause.


That'd be what we're talking about here, I thought that was fairly clear.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 8, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
You do understand that the word "privacy" is never mentioned in the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Yes, if you are nit-picky, the word "privacy" is not in there. The right to not have the feds mess with you and your stuff for no good reason is pretty clearly stated.

Phone records qualify as papers and effects, no?

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 8, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
Sure - but you lost the right to claim 4th amendment protection of them when you gave them to someone else.

That's an interesting observation.

Isn't the voice content of a phone call on a phone line then also unprotected since you are giving the sound of your voice to the phone company to transmit over phone lines that belong to them? Don't they, the NSA, need a warrant to tap your line even though it is not your line and they tap into it at the phone company?

Can the NSA open your safe-deposit box without a warrant because you gave papers to the bank and that means that you gave them to someone else?

Obviously, the phone records never belong to the individual. They belong to the phone company and were never given to them in the first place. They are clearly different. And yet, the NSA feels the need to get court approval to gather them. If they were not protected by the 4th amendment as you say, why ask the FISA court to get them?

It really should be a high court that interprets the 4th amendment and not some spy organization and a spy court that is more interested in catching criminals than in upholding liberty. I would like the Supreme court to determine if phone records owned by the phone company about my private business are theirs to do with as they please or if those records are mine and are to be protected by the 4th amendment.

It's is not clear if this is so legal that the NSA never needed any court approval in the first place. I now worry about every bank transaction, every phone call, every internet search,e tc..., that I've done is part of the public record simply because I used a third-party to help facilitate the transaction.

Maybe this is why there was separate legislation protecting medical records; because the 4th amendment would not protect that information due to it's being maintained by someone other than me.

Dave

[edit to say] It is a good point even though it doesn't go far enough in suggesting who owned and now owns those phone records.



rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 8, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
...but none of dissent being crushed

If it were crushed early enough, you would have never heard of it.

I don't at all agree that the NSA is trying to crush dissent, but that doesn't mean it could not or has not happened. I'd rather not give them the information or tools they need to ever have that ability.

Dave
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
We have been over this so many times in this thread...

Joe, we've also been over the fact that it's becoming increasingly likely that the NSA is collecting more than just phone records. And that's what I've been addressing.

I keep asking you point blank about this: If it became known that the NSA was collecting content, what would your stance be?

You can claim that it's a hypothetical question. And I would have to agree, at this point it is. But there it is, a hypothetical question--with millions of people's civil rights violated, would your stance be different?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 8, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
If it became known that the NSA was collecting content

excerpt from http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-whistleblower-edward-snowden-on-global-spying-a-910006-2.html

Interviewer: How long is the collected data being stored for?

Snowden: As of right now, full-take collection ages off quickly ( a few days) due to its size unless an analyst has "tasked" (7) a target or communication, in which the tasked communications get stored "forever and ever," regardless of policy, because you can always get a waiver. The metadata (8) also ages off, though less quickly. The NSA wants to be at the point where at least all of the metadata is permanently stored. In most cases, content isn't as valuable as metadata because you can either re-fetch content based on the metadata or, if not, simply task all future communications of interest for permanent collection since the metadata tells you what out of their data stream you actually want.


(7) In this context, "tasked" refers to the full collection and storage of metadata and content for any matched identifiers by the NSA or its partners.

(8) "Metadata" can include telephone numbers, IP addresses and connection times, among other things. Wired Magazine offers a solid primer on metadata.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 8, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
From my limited knowledge, WMDs are not the sort of thing that an Al-Qaeda operative has in his room. So no, the threat of a major urban center going up is smoke isn't really on my list of concerns just now.

Death by 1,000 cuts, like the fires that are now scorching Europe, seems to be more of a realistic threat...

Is death by cuts worth the wholesale forfeiture of our civil rights/4th amendment? Now that is something I think the people should decide, and not something 11 guys in robes decide for us in secret.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 8, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Who would give a f*#k about that ?

Well, read this Riley, and maybe you'll get a slightly different perspective.

excerpt from Daniel Ellsberg: NSA leaker Snowden made the right call when he fled the U.S. - The Washington Post

Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don’t agree. The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.

After the New York Times had been enjoined from publishing the Pentagon Papers — on June 15, 1971, the first prior restraint on a newspaper in U.S. history — and I had given another copy to The Post (which would also be enjoined), I went underground with my wife, Patricia, for 13 days. My purpose (quite like Snowden’s in flying to Hong Kong) was to elude surveillance while I was arranging — with the crucial help of a number of others, still unknown to the FBI — to distribute the Pentagon Papers sequentially to 17 other newspapers, in the face of two more injunctions. The last three days of that period was in defiance of an arrest order: I was, like Snowden now, a “fugitive from justice.”

Yet when I surrendered to arrest in Boston, having given out my last copies of the papers the night before, I was released on personal recognizance bond the same day. Later, when my charges were increased from the original three counts to 12, carrying a possible 115-year sentence, my bond was increased to $50,000. But for the whole two years I was under indictment, I was free to speak to the media and at rallies and public lectures. I was, after all, part of a movement against an ongoing war. Helping to end that war was my preeminent concern. I couldn’t have done that abroad, and leaving the country never entered my mind.

There is no chance that experience could be reproduced today, let alone that a trial could be terminated by the revelation of White House actions against a defendant that were clearly criminal in Richard Nixon’s era — and figured in his resignation in the face of impeachment — but are today all regarded as legal (including an attempt to “incapacitate me totally”).

I hope Snowden’s revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like Bradley Manning, incommunicado.

He would almost certainly be confined in total isolation, even longer than the more than eight months Manning suffered during his three years of imprisonment before his trial began recently. The United Nations Special Rapporteur for Torture described Manning’s conditions as “cruel, inhuman and degrading.” (That realistic prospect, by itself, is grounds for most countries granting Snowden asylum, if they could withstand bullying and bribery from the United States.)....
Manjusri

climber
Jul 8, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
"Do you really think someone is listening to billions of hours worth of boring and stupid jibber jabber? "

Faulk says he and others in his section of the NSA facility at Fort Gordon routinely shared salacious or tantalizing phone calls that had been intercepted, alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer.

"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out. It would be some colonel making pillow talk and we would say, 'Wow, this was crazy'," Faulk told ABC News.

Faulk said he joined in to listen, and talk about it during breaks in Back Hall's "smoke pit," but ended up feeling badly about his actions.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5987804&page=1#.UbYGdfZAREw
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 8, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
So,

Are you , (and everyone else)

a soldier who should have his electronic mail opened and read?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 8, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
King Barry has charged eight people under the 1917 espionage act.
More than double the number of any other president.

George Bush?

One, and he plead guilty.
WBraun

climber
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
7 months before the 9/11 attacks NSA’s illegal spy on Americans program began.

Stupid fools know nothing here.

In a nutshell

The whole purpose of the NSA spy program was to enable 9/11, protect the perpetrators, and maintain the 911 triggered covert dictatorship.

Stupid Americans .....
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
7 months before the 9/11 attacks NSA’s illegal spy on Americans program began.

Werner, can you give us more info on this?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 8, 2013 - 10:45pm PT
Who leaked Plame?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/08/leak.armitage/


Six prosecutions of whistle blowers by Barry.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/project-on-government-oversight/obama-administration-call_1_b_1304285.html

And Manning has been charged with two counts, so I guess you can't add either



Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:17pm PT
Not sure what happened 7 months before 9/11, but a lot changed afterwards:

http://www.aclu.org/ten-most-disturbing-things-you-should-know-about-fbi-911

Most Americans have no idea how limited their rights are compared to people in other countries.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 8, 2013 - 11:31pm PT
jghedge,

When you find yourself agreeing with Kissinger and disagreeing with Ellsberg, does it not give you the least bit of pause?
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:01am PT
Not as much as knee-jerk partisanship should...right?

I'd also question what relevancy Ellsberg's comments have, comparing his actions to Snowden's - Ellsberg never came close to compromising covert field operations, as Snowden is bragging about doing. Someone needed to ask Ellsberg how he feels about that


And why should I question the judgement of those who sit in on national security briefings? On what basis would I be doing that?

Not sure I understand your first point. Most of the criticism here is coming from left of center. That's certainly where I fall on the political spectrum. How is that knee-jerk partisanship?

Regarding compromising field operations, you have a cite for that? I haven't seen anything resembling that.

As for those who have been read into the program, it's not as if there's unanimity there. Senator Wyden has long had concerns (and was effectively gagged about speaking on the topic):

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/06/intelligence-committee-wyden-snowden-came.php
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:17am PT
jghedge says: "Bottom line: National security is immune to politics, no matter how much the far left/far right wish it weren't. And the black guy knew that going in."

Comment:

Jghedge says "National security is immune to politics" - therefore: jghedge is in reality not discussing on this thread, he is posting extremely often, but to him this is not politics. Jdhedge has concluded, and jghedge's conclusion is by jghedge not seen as politics: National Security is immune to politics and is not to be discussed, not even by the President. By who then? The generals in their closed rooms?

Quite revealing. Jghedge is a fundamentalist.

At the associative level it makes me think of Colonel Kurtz and his words: "Exterminate all the brutes..." Would Congo/the US be a safe place then? Or would the exterminators be part of the problem - the brutes?

Rhetorical question? Yes...

The Mirror!
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:18am PT
If Jhedge says ANYTHING interesting or informative, could somebody just report or repost it? I don't waste my time on reading any of his posts anymore. If I could have read just one out of the hundreds that indicated he had any brains maybe I would feel differently. So if you would kindly repost ANY post of Hedges which has a good point, many of us who don't read a word he writes would then be in on the conversation.


Ilovegasoline said:
"I question the sanity of anyone trembling in fear of an imminent nuclear holocaust in America and as consequence warmly and servilely embracing a surveillance state and police state mentality. They are the unfortunate victims of media fear propaganda (btw, whatever happened to the terrorist alert warning color levels front and center? That was an effective manipulator for a while, playing the public like a violin)."

^^^This^^^ makes sense to me. Our military strategy of being present and operational in everyone else's space should be reduced and changed IMO. Taking down the President of Bolivias plane so as to all but strip search him will only make more enemies, and lead to the need for more police state tactics. It's counterproductive, expensive and wasteful.

Daniel Ellsbergs post also makes a good point. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/daniel-ellsberg-nsa-leaker-snowden-made-the-right-call/2013/07/07/0b46d96c-e5b7-11e2-aef3-339619eab080_story_1.html


ps, serious about reposting anything that hedge says that contributes positively to the conversation. I don't waste my time reading a damned thing he drones on about.

heh heh..."drones" on about....heh...
WBraun

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Snowden compromised covert operations in foreign countries

Oh cry us a river ....

All the covert ops are all over the news and exposed.

Only the stupid Americans who don't know how to use the internet don't know WTF is really going on.

Quit your white washing you're becoming a true traitor under the cloak of a patriot.

Wolf ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:44am PT
Jghedge says: "And please try to keep your ridiculous personal agendas off the thread, thanks."

Comment: So, jghedge has no personal agenda on this thread. Why is he posting his "non-political"-"National security is immune to politics"-stuff so often that I, in a moment of weakness, could be saying it is ridiculous...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:53am PT
You're a liar too, jghedge?

Here's only one example of what you have said earlier:

"In other words, ask the Chinese and Russians what Snowden told them - because, of course, they're the only ones who actually know what harm he's done...yes, I'm sure they'll tell you everything. Idiot."

Isn't there a personal agenda against another person in calling him/her an idiot? There's a lot of other examples. If calling someone an idiot is not an example of a personal agenda against other people - what is?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
jghedge

On the web a personal agenda is seen through the actions. Speculations about the intentions behind the actions are often useless. Saying someone has a personal agenda is an action that is often used in politics to harm another person.

So yes, calling someone an idiot is an internet action showing a personal agenda.

And I will add: Saying someone is having a personal agenda is also an internet action showing a personal agenda.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
You're treating covert operations as if they can operate once they're compromised.

Covert operations?

Here's an article that outlines what Snowden as so far leaked:


link:What Snowden Leaked - Forbes Magazine



Perhaps you can count hacking Chinese systems as a covert action, but do you really believe China didn't already know about some of this?

So Joe, you keep saying that Snowden compromised covert operations. Can you back that up?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Jghedge

You say: "Werner and Rsin both lay into me on a daily basis, and i give it back to them and I know them both - hundreds of pitches with both of them

Do they have personal agendas against me, or me against them? Hahahaha, that's a good one."


Comment:

As I see it, they have a personal agenda using the words. I guess that's where you started too - talking about other persons having a personal agenda (against you).

Have you changed your mind?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
So it's your speculation, Joe, that he compromised covert operations. You cannot back up your claim.

Got it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
There's a good percentage of our "elite" Americans running the USA govt. banking and politics infrastructure who are on Bath Salts .......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
Jghedge

I said: " I guess that's where you started too - talking about other persons having a personal agenda (against you)."

You answered: "You guessed wrong."

What you said in the original post: "And please try to keep your ridiculous personal agendas off the thread, thanks."

Seeing what you wrote in your original post I have no reason to believe your "You guessed wrong"-conclusion. My strong hypothesis is that you are a liar in this case.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Republic magazine had an interesting editorial titled "Another Slap in the Face of Freedom":

While the world impatiently awaits a decision by Edward Snowden on where he will accept asylum, back here in America, we have been dealt another slap in the face of freedom by the nation’s surveillance court. What once used to serve as a check and balance system for preventing corruption among the ranks of the political system, has now taken a drastic turn in the opposite direction. In secretly held meetings the FISA court has issued rulings that have expanded the draconian police state practices of the NSA. The FISA court rulings can be viewed as nothing more than another slap in the face of freedom. This court, its officers and those they support, have placed themselves on a pedestal and consider themselves above reproach.

How long do you think it will be before another slap in the face of freedom takes the place of this one? We have grown fat, lazy and complacent in our acceptance of the wrong doings purported by those falsely elected to positions of power. Our own inactivity promotes a platform for their push for increased power. We are no longer a country of the people, by the people and for the people. We have morphed into a country governed and controlled by the favored few at the expense of the many.

NYT:

“In more than a dozen classified rulings, the nation’s surveillance court has created a secret body of law giving the National Security Agency the power to amass vast collections of data on Americans while pursuing not only terrorism suspects, but also people possibly involved in nuclear proliferation, espionage and cyberattacks, officials say.”

They will continue to deliver another slap in the face of freedom time and time again, while simultaneously painting portraits of patriots as traitors as they have with Edward Snowden, who in light of these facts, appears more and more like the ONLY American left with a spinal column keeping them erect.

NYT:

“The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.”

Take a look at the timeline included in that statement. The major changes took place 6 years ago, shortly after Obama took office after a dazzling display of denouncing the Bush administration for conducting illegal wiretapping adventures. The longer he remains in office the greater the chance for another slap in the face of freedom to occur.

NYT:

“Unlike the Supreme Court, the FISA court hears from only one side in the case — the government — and its findings are almost never made public. A Court of Review is empaneled to hear appeals, but that is known to have happened only a handful of times in the court’s history, and no case has ever been taken to the Supreme Court. In fact, it is not clear in all circumstances whether Internet and phone companies that are turning over the reams of data even have the right to appear before the FISA court.”

If you are still content to sit idly by and withstand these atrocities, then you will undoubtedly give nothing more than a passing glance to another slap in the face of freedom when it arrives sometime later this week.

#anotherslapinthefaceoffreedom"

This whole thing is a lot like an out of control trial rolling down the rails. Damned near impossible to stop. Unlike the train, no one in the know is divulging much, so we are all in the dark as to the true nature and extent of whats occuring.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Jghedge:

"My strong hypothesis is that you are a liar in this case." I see you, your words/actions, nothing behind.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 9, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
There's a good percentage of our "elite" Americans running the USA govt. banking and politics infrastructure who are on Bath Salts

And you'd think they could afford cocaine.

Curt
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
He did, in fact, compromise covert operations, by taking those laptops to China and bragging about his ability to compromise them.

Joe, what's on those laptops is pure speculation, and bragging that he had access to missions is not the same as giving details on those missions.

In addition, there's this:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/42127_LA_Times_Contradicts_Guardian_Story_of_Snowdens_Four_Laptops

In other words, we don't know and it's pure conjecture that Snowden compromised covert ops.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
I know, Lovegasoline. I will let him go... I just wanted to give him a chance.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
Joe, I'm saying we don't know the full extent of what he did or did not disclose. To say he compromised covert ops is speculation, and I'm not going to take that bait.

Let's stick to what we know, and realize that we can speculate on the things we don't. That's fine by me, as long as we don't state what we don't know as fact.

BTW, I appreciate your efforts to outline your views on Snowden and the NSA actions, and I respect your opinions. It's certainly a fine line. Nonetheless, I don't trust the NSA any more than I trust the CEO of Goldman Sachs--I believe they are both in the same boat and will fight tooth-and-nail for the top 0.001%. And that means you and I are not on that boat.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
Someone steals your credit card - would you cancel it? Apparently not, since you need proof that they're actually going to use it.


So, they take everybody's phone records, but say they won't use them unless they have a court order.

I suppose you need proof that they actually do get court orders, eh? But we'll never know, because it's all done in secret.


They have the ability to collect the content of all electronic communications, but hey, why would they? I suppose you need proof that they do indeed collect that data, which is illegal.


Oh, but Snowden did say they collect content. Gosh...



I just read Brazil is pissed as hell, and they might offer Snowden asylum. Man, this thing has legs.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
The metadata - content argument

"Why hasn't there been greater public outrage about the cynicism of the "just metadata" mantra?

One explanation is that most people imagine that metadata isn't really very revealing and so they're not unduly bothered by what NSA and its overseas franchises are doing. If that is indeed what they believe, then my humble suggestion is that they think again.

We already know how detailed an account of an individual's daily life can be constructed from metadata extracted from a mobile phone. What people may not realise is how informative the metadata extracted from their email logs can be.

In an attempt to illustrate this, MIT researcher Ethan Zuckerman published an extraordinary blog post last Wednesday. Entitled "Me and my metadata", it explains what happened when two of his students wrote a program to analyse his Gmail account and create from the metadata therein a visualisation of his social network (and of his private life), which he then publishes and discusses in detail. En passant, it's worth saying that this is a remarkably public-spirited thing to do; not many researchers would have Zuckerman's courage.

"The largest node in the graph, the person I exchange the most email with, is my wife, Rachel," he writes. "I find this reassuring, but [the researchers] have told me that people's romantic partners are rarely their largest node. Because I travel a lot, Rachel and I have a heavily email-dependent relationship, but many people's romantic relationships are conducted mostly face to face and don't show up clearly in metadata. But the prominence of Rachel in the graph is, for me, a reminder that one of the reasons we might be concerned about metadata is that it shows strong relationships, whether those relationships are widely known or are secret."

There's lots more in this vein. The graph reveals different intensities in his communications with various students, for example, which might reflect their different communication preferences (maybe they prefer face-to-face talks rather than email), or it might indicate that some are getting more supervisory attention than others. And so on. "My point here," Zuckerman writes, "isn't to elucidate all the peculiarities of my social network (indeed, analysing these diagrams is a bit like analysing your dreams – fascinating to you, but off-putting to everyone else). It's to make the case that this metadata paints a very revealing portrait of oneself."

Spot on. Now do a personal thought-experiment: add to your email metadata the data from your mobile phone and finally your clickstream – the log of every website you've visited, ever – all of which are available to the spooks without a warrant. And then ask yourself whether you're still unconcerned about GCHQ or the NSA or anyone else (for example the French Interior Ministry, when you're on vacation) scooping up "just" your metadata. Even though – naturally – you've nothing to hide. Not even the fact that you sometimes visit, er, sports websites at work? Or that you have a lot of email traffic with someone who doesn't appear to be either a co-worker or a family member?

How have we stumbled into this Orwellian nightmare? One reason is the naivete/ignorance of legislators who swallowed the spooks' line that metadata-hoovering was just an updating of older powers to access logs of (analogue) telephone calls. Another is that our political masters didn't appreciate the capability of digital computing and communications technology. A third is that democratic governments everywhere were so spooked by 9/11 that they were easy meat for bureaucratic empire-builders in the security establishment."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
"The US supreme court will be asked to suspend the blanket collection of US telephone records by the FBI under an emergency petition due to be filed on Monday by civil rights campaigners at the Electronic Privacy Information Center (Epic).

This new legal challenge to the power of government agencies to spy on Americans follows the publication last month by the Guardian of a secret order from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court ordering Verizon to hand over metadata from its phone records.

Previous attempts to appeal against the rulings of these courts have floundered due to a lack of public information about who might be caught up in the surveillance net, but the disclosure of specific orders by National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden has opened the door to a flurry of new challenges. It comes as a similar legal challenge was filed in Britain on Monday.

The latest from Epic asks the supreme court to rule that the NSA and FBI have stretched the law governing state intrusion to such a point that checks and balances put in by lawmakers have become meaningless.

Under section 1861 of Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (Fisa), authorities seeking such records from phone companies must show "that there are reasonable grounds to to believe that the tangible things sought are relevant to an authorized investigation".

But lawyers acting for Epic argue that the sweeping nature of Fisa court orders revealed by Snowden make a mockery of this "relevancy" clause.

"It is simply not possible that every phone record in the possession of a telecommunications firm could be relevant to an authorized investigation," says a copy of the petition seen by the Guardian.

"Such an interpretation of Section 1861 would render meaningless the qualifying phrases contained in the provision and eviscerate the purpose of the Act."

The petition seeks a "writ of mandamus" to immediately overturn the order of the lower court, presided on in secret by judge Roger Vinson, or alternatively a "writ of certiorari" to allow supreme court justices to review the decision.

Epic lawyers also argue the original order is unconstitutional because it gives too much power to federal agencies, which could be abused to interfere in other areas of government.

"Because the NSA sweeps up judicial and congressional communications, it inappropriately arrogates exceptional power to the executive branch," says the petition."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
If you send a letter by post in America, will it then be read by some Security Dep because it is sent by a public postal service?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
It seems to me like everyone is a potential terrorist in America at present, every American citizen. Are you watched and listened to if you travel on an American train or a bus, using public transport?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
If a known terrorist mails you a letter, does the gov't have any right to intercept and read it?

do you bother reading your own drivel? a "known" terrorist should be in jail, right? and if they are not a "known" terorist, then what the hell are they?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 9, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Nobody talks about the more effective ways to prevent terrorism

Like ceasing to support undemocratic kings and dictators in foreign lands, quitting enabling Israel do violate human rights with impunity, and quit forcing little countries to do our will.

We push our weight around everywhere and have hypocritical double standards and we expect everyone to just bend over and take it. They won't. Even Europe and Latin America are getting pissed off at us now

peace

karl
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
Nobody talks about the more effective ways to prevent terrorism

Like ceasing to support undemocratic kings and dictators in foreign lands, quitting enabling Israel do violate human rights with impunity, and quit forcing little countries to do our will.

Really, Karl? The terrorists just want western-style Democracy? My relatives still in Lebanon, and those who emigrated from there, would strongly disagree.

John
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Maybe I've spent too much time in Latin America, but I got used to the freedom they have. In Colombia there is no one who can really protect you, but you can do anything you want. The police don't bother you unless you're doing something wrong. Actually nobody at all bothers you unless you're doing something to them.

In Colombia, if the government were collecting info like this, it would get sold 100 times by various people in the intel agencies. Somebody would be pissed at you for whatever reason, and pay somebody to get your data. Or just do it to blackmail you if you had a lot of money or something else they wanted.

We have powerful armed groups like the FARC and BACRIM, drug trafficking organizations, but if you don't bother them they don't bother you. My office is in Apartado, near the Colombian border with Panama. When I enter the US I get interrogated by DHS, one time the agent was insisting that I couldn't live there unless one of the groups was protecting me. He probably believed it and it shows he didn't understand the situation, which is that no one can protect you and if you side with one of those groups you just become the enemy of the others.

So I have to agree with rSin and others who use the word "pussy" to describe the North American attitude towards security and terrorism. It doesn't really matter that much if some guy in Afghanistan hates the US. He doesn't have to do anything, the Americans will make their own self inflicted wounds.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
I'm slightly on the left end of the political spectrum, but I'm currently dissatisfied with the governments policies. They listen to my calls, and it's super annoying.

Stop listening to my phone calls! You're not listening into any conversations that discuss illegal things!

Carry on.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Karl said:
..."quitting enabling Israel do violate human rights with impunity"

I have seen you post this more than once Karl. ie, "It's the Jews fault for not wanting to be dead". I guess I can see that point. I know you are a good person but I can't let it go by again. I'm sure that the Israeli Jews would feel much better about your statement Karl except that currently the alternative for them is death and old school Pogroms. Not just the loss of a homeland. PS, perhaps you can show where you have complained as voraciously and consistently about the wanton death and murder of Arab on Arab of an currently estimated 80,000 - 100,000 (so far) in Syria, or the repression, jailing and murder by the authorities of minorities and Christians in many Arab countries...


Which, as TGT knows, is creeping over and touching on Lebanon as I type this.


ps, I already as much as said this:
"We push our weight around everywhere and have hypocritical double standards and we expect everyone to just bend over and take it. They won't. Even Europe and Latin America are getting pissed off at us now"
I concur buddy.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:18pm PT
Shouldn't the Electronic Privacy group "stick to what they know" too? Or does that only apply to me talking about Snowden?

It only applies to you talking about Snowden.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 9, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
From the top of the ladder:

How could you let this happen? How could you let the land of Freedom, the land of Hope and Glory, slowly be turned into the land of Distrust and Paranoia. Is business and money driving the change? Is fear profitable? A new fear-business emerging?
WBraun

climber
Jul 9, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
His own fellow NSA whistleblowers call him a traitor

Those guys are nobodies and not even the real whistle blowers.

More white washed bullsh!t made up propaganda from Hedge's fools he listens to since he doesn't have clue where the real information is.

Take a vacation Joe you have already exploded from all your stupidity ....




k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
http://www.usatoday.com/media/cinematic/video/2425523/

Frightening interview of 3 previous NSA whistleblowers and their attorney by USA TODAY

Tom's post ...


And another:

i worry about a criminal fractional reserve banking system, backing a monopolized military/industrial complex, backing a falsely legalized barbaric totalitarian police state, violating everyone's civil rights of privacy, life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness

and about people like you [Joe] who seem to be able to justify such things
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:17pm PT
And they also say that what the NSA is doing is illegal.

"Did he [Snowden] do the right thing?"

"Yes."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Joe, that interview refutes every one of your points you make to attack the necessity for the blanket surveillance.

Radack: I consider this [FBI Verizon order] to be an unlawful order. While I am glad that we finally have something tangible to look at, this order came from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. They have no jurisdiction to authorize domestic-to-domestic surveillance.

It goes on and on about how wrong the whole thing is. I find it surprising that you continue to support the program.

Attack Snowden all you want. It's what he revealed about the program that is truly bothersome.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
I just find it remarkable that 95% of the people on this thread refuse to admit what is plainly obvious - that Snowden committed treason. Even his fellow whistleblowers admit it.


Just one said "he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor." The other two edged away from the traitor comment, and 'transitioning' is hardly calling him a traitor straight on.

Come on, I know you read better than that. Stop bending their words.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Drake: For me, it was material evidence of an institutional crime that we now claim is criminal.

Binney: Which is still criminal.

Wiebe: It's criminal.


Come on Joe, tell us again how it's legal, when these very honorable NSA agents, who have collectively over 100 years in the business, say it's criminal.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 9, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
He exposed that we were spying on our number 1 enemy Brazil!? and the EU!?and the american citizens!? He has embarrassed the secret US government snooping where they had no constitutional right to be. Now they want to spank him but he got away and they are looking like thieves with their hand in the cookie jar. The guy has balls.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Company Overview

Raytheon UTD Inc. provides engineering and scientific analysis, site and facilities assessments, and technology development services to federal, state, and local government agencies in the United States and internationally. It operates in three divisions: Technology, Analysis, and Assessment. The Technology division offers data acquisition, board design, custom sensor development, telemetry, site characterization, digital elevation modeling, terrain and imagery analysis, and 3D spatial and flythroughs services. The Analysis division provides remote imaging, geotechnical characterization, and sensor development and applications for hostile system and target characterization. The Assessment division performs critical infrastructure evaluations, as well as implements assessment recommendations for a range of government and private sector customers. Raytheon UTD Inc. was formerly known as UTD, Inc. As a result of the acquisition of UTD, Inc. by Raytheon Co., UTD, Inc.'s name was changed to Raytheon UTD Inc. in 2005. The company was founded in 1977 and is based in Springfield, Virginia. As of August 22, 2005, Raytheon UTD, Inc. operates as a subsidiary of Raytheon Co.

That is just one part; they have other or many assessments/ services in their bag of goodies.

Blast as in for protecting structures is one.

But blast not your cup of tea maybe this will interest you.


Contractor Seeks 'Cyber Warriors' to Help Defend U.S.

Published July 27, 2009

But here is the jest of the scope for looking for a few good men.

Want to be a "cyber warrior" defending your country? If so, there are plenty of well-paid jobs available.

Leading defense contractor Raytheon is looking for a few good men and women — a couple of hundred of them, in fact — to patrol the front lines of America's cybersecurity.

"We're aggressively recruiting," Raytheon Vice President of Information Security Solutions Steve Hawkins said.

Applicants need to be a bit aggressive as well, according to the solicitation Raytheon put online seeking applicants for more than 30 different job descriptions.

• Click here to apply.

"Our Raytheon cyber warriors play offense and defense, and know how the adversary thinks and can adopt their perspective," says the Web page, which lists positions ranging from "network and security engineers" to "data modeling engineers" to "media sanitation specialists."

Asked what that last job entails, Hawkins laughed.

"That's where you erase or destroy devices that would have sensitive data on them," he explained. "You try to find individuals who've been trained in doing that. But I'm afraid those positions have mostly been filled."

Nevertheless, Hawkins says the company's made about 50 to 60 hires so far this year, and wants to take on 150 more new cyber warriors by December.

National cybersecurity is a hugely growing field, with the crude but effective shutdown of U.S. and South Korean government Web sites over July 4 weekend coming as the latest example of our weaknesses.

A report released just this past Wednesday found that the federal government is woefully behind in cybersecurity, with the lack of trained personnel the biggest problem.

For the Raytheon jobs, all you need are very strong computer skills — a college degree in computer science, math or engineering is preferred, but not necessary — strong ethical standards, and, for most positions, the ability to pass government security clearances, which entails U.S. citizenship.

And while some security companies hire ex-hackers, Hawkins said such formerly shady characters need not apply in this case.

"We certainly love ex-hackers' skills, but you have to get ethical people," he said. "There are very extensive background investigations, and you don't usually find criminals making it through that process."

Even former teenage hackers who haven't been convicted of any crime but are suspected of a few would not be considered.

"That would be a very negative thing," Hawkins says. "We would rather take engineers with basic skills and train them from scratch."

Hawkins wouldn't get specific about compensation but said that it's a "typical engineering pay scale, which varies widely based on level of experience."

A quick online survey shows that systems analysts generally make in the high five figures.

Hawkins added that for those applicants who pass the most stringent security clearances, "which limits the available talent," there's "premium compensation ... I'd say they make 10 to 15 percent more."

While the list of jobs looks pretty intimidating, Hawkins stressed that applicants would be better off if they weren't too specialized.

"We're looking for those individuals who understand the inner workings of computer systems and software, who understand the interaction between hardware and software down to the nitty-gritty," he said. "Not people who've specialized in high-level computer languages."

In other words, Raytheon doesn't need programmers trained in the most modern, efficient techniques, which automate many routine processes, but rather those who know how to get closer to what the computers are actually doing.

It's a bit like the difference between driving a car with automatic transmission and one with a stick shift, where you have more of a sense of what the engine's up to.

While many private computer firms favor younger applicants over older ones, Hawkins says that's not the case here.

"We're perfectly willing to take mid-career applicants, especially those who've had full military careers," he says. "It really comes down to the thought process they have, the skills they have."

New graduates fresh out of college are welcome, too, as well as recently laid-off Wall Street quantitative analysts.

"If they don't have the skills we need, then we'll sent them to our version of boot camp training," he adds.

In a difficult job market, with so many people looking for work, why does Raytheon need to advertise?

"In the past three to four years, the number of graduates in the fields we're looking at has really plateaued," said Hawkins. "The citizenship requirements mean there's a limited supply for a growing field."

"Kids these days tend to lose interest in math sometime in middle school," he added. "We've got a program for schoolkids called 'MathMovesU.' We've reached 700,000 kids and teachers this way in the past few years."

Locations for the jobs are in Garland, Texas (near Dallas), Melbourne, Fla., and as might be expected, two areas near Washington, D.C.: northern Virginia, home of the Pentagon and CIA, and Linthicum and Fort Meade, Md., where the National Security Agency is.

That doesn't mean people working in the latter two would be directly placed in the NSA or Pentagon, Hawkins explained.

"We do support all the major federal customers," he said. "We're not limited by proximity."

That was in 2009.

Hmmm, wonder if they are still hiring?

Want their phone #.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
The courts say otherwise, though. What bearing does NSA background have on legal matters?

On the three NSA whistleblowers, they tried to go to the courts with the legality of the NSA domestic surveillance program, but the courts instead turned against them. At this point, I can say the courts are not interested in what is legal or not, they are concerned with their pet program.


And it's funny how you keep debating me on your side of the argument (surveillance), which I willingly engage in, but you refuse to even admit that mine (treason) exists. Why is that, "K-Man"?

Well jghedge, it's "k-man" (if you're gonna put quotes around it). Or call me Kelly, my real name ;-)

I'm with DMT here, until we know the facts, I'm not going to say it is, or is not, treason.

And here I need to correct you again, only one of the NSA agents said that Snowden was "transitioning" towards treason. The other two did say no such thing.

I am more concerned about what was revealed about the domestic spying, and how the Gov't is now beyond reproach, than with Snowden. What our gov't is doing scares me more than imagining a terrorist has a suitcase nuke, and knows how to use it.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 9, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
It seems that any terrorists worthy of posing a significant threat (nuclear holocaust!) is going to be sophisticated enough to secure their communications.

The one real threat I can think of is to smuggle a nuclear weapon into the US. Could be done easily from Colombia. The drug shipments are huge, always multi-ton. Each shipment is worth millions so there is plenty of money to bribe everyonbe along the way, to not notice the blip on the radar, and so on. (fact: few drug shipments would enter the US without bribing someone in the US Coast Guard) There are a thousand ways to bring drugs into the US and its just as easy to bring in a nuke, with the people doing it thinking they're smuggling drugs.

Colombian drug traffickers are very sophisticated and hire the best computer people money can buy. On the other hand, the Taliban don't use computers or phones. All of their orders are hand written, and transmitted by hand. There's no other safe way.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 9, 2013 - 10:52pm PT


Imagine you’re playing chess and one of your pawns is infected with some form of radiation. Each piece in its vicinity and any piece that defeats it becomes infected as well. What options do you have? What would you do? How can you limit its damage while still maintaining an overall defensive or offensive strategy? How would your initial strategy change with the introduction of this radioactive pawn?

This is the game of chess that is being played between the United States and Russia. Edward Snowden is that radioactive pawn (henceforth, he will be known as the superhero/villain RadioPawn


http://sofrep.com/22999/playing-chess-with-edward-snowden/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 9, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/07/09/196211/linchpin-for-obamas-plan-to-predict.html#.UdzPjm2wWdM
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
listen to this and tell me if this is legal and has anything to do with terrorism

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/07/10/breaking-the-set-nsa-whistleblower-russell-tice-on-nsa-spying-on-blackmailing-of-elected-and-appointed-officials/

Peace

Karl
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 10, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
The idea that Dick Cheney was behind illegal government activity is hardly surprising. He practically invented it.

Curt
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
rSin, if only it were as benign as that.

Did you view the clip Karal Baba posted?

I am amazed at peoples ability to misplace their trust.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.

    SalNichols


While it appears that Sal knows his stuff, it seems he is very much in the dark with regards to how seriously the NSA pays attention to USSID 18.


If anybody still thinks the NSA operates within the law, or that our courts are providing the proper oversight over this black-budge agency, they are simply not paying attention.


And Joe, are you still standing by your accusation that Showden is a treasonous traitor?"
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
I am amazed at peoples ability to misplace their trust.

Anybody who placed trust in the Bush-Cheney administration got exactly what they deserved.

Curt
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
So, just what was the purported goal of the covert ops Snowden "compromised" with his disclosures. I'm sure it will have deathly consequences to our "national security".

You must feel so unsafe and insecure, now that our precious spys have been exposed.
"What ever will we do????"
"Help us"
"Big Brother, please save me from the evil tea-baggers and al-qeda."

Funny stuff!!!!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Anybody who placed trust in the Bush-Cheney administration got exactly what they deserved and more of the same with the BO administration.

fixed it for you...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
bump for staying awake
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
So, jhedge, are you saying we should just trust that they are acting in our best interests? I'm sorry but the government lost my trust a long time ago.

And, if these covert ops you speak of were indeed "compromised", it is all out in the open now. So why not explain it to me, unless there is nothing legitimate there to begin with.

What spys were compromised? Who was the Valerie Plame in this incident?
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
"The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers, which are cited to justify it."
President John F. Kennedy

Address to newspaper publishers

April 27, 1961

He says it better than I did.
WBraun

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
Obama recently said: I'm just going to go along with all these jackasses because I don't want to end up like JFK did.

So even Obama calls Hedge a jackass ......
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
... you refuse to acknowledge, let alone address, the reasons why, so why bother asking me? You just pretend all he did was expose domestic data mining, and ignore the ops he compromised. Hell, you refuse to even admit you understand what the word "compromised" means - that's how far you've stuck your heads in the sand.


I understand what compromised means (especially with the help of your definitions).


But I also read the definition of treason, and don't think it applies to Snowden. Then I read the article where Snowden sez he didn't give the Ruskies or the Chinese access to his laptops or intel that he had:

Edward Snowden: Russia, China Did Not Get Any Documents From Me


Afterwards, I realized that we really don't know what he did or did not let slip. It's all speculation at this point and I don't believe we'll ever know the full extent of what Snowden knows or what intel he has.

Still, after reviewing the content and links in this thread, I'm convinced that somebody passed Snowden some of the juicer pieces of intel, and that was done with the intention to be leaked (like the FICA court order on Verizon, a clear overstepping of the law).
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Ok, so we still are not allowed to know what was compromised, or why it has to be kept secret.

Thats it. Because of "national security". It is like saying abra-cadabra. No oversght, no accountability, no problem, eh????

Seriously, jhedge, do you really feel threatened in some way. These "ops" are really necessary to keep us safe?

There must be some big threat out there that is being hidden from us, right. But we don't need to know what it is. We might panik or something.

C'mon! Where is the Boogieman?
WBraun

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
LOL Dingus

Ain't that the truth.

And Hedge has become the new fattrad .......:-)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 10, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
From the top of the ladder:

I find the degeneration of Jghedge to a tool the size of The Fatrad and The LEB to be rather sad...
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
How else are covert ops supposed to exist? You might be able to read about them months or years later, when no damage could occur, but while they still exist?

What I'm getting at is that, just maybe, they shouldn't exist. Maybe they have taken this too far. Perhaps covert operations have become political.

I'll ask nicely: Can you explain to me why we need so much secrecy? Is "national security" the only explanation we are going to get? What is the check on such programs?
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
we need the secrecy so that the American public does not become over reactive and raises so much hell with their congresspeople that they vote to end the program

Thanks, that is probably the most honest answer I can hope for . . .

Democracy? meh
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 10, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
Jghegde says:

"Just to clarify: My contention that Snowden is a traitor is based on his bragging of his ability to expose foreign field ops, then defecting (essentially) to China and Russia with the data."

Did he brag?
Did he brag about his "ability to expose Foreign Field ops"?
Essentially? What's essentially?
Did he "defect" to China and Russia?

Your line of resoning to hold on to the position of Snowden being a traitor is so full of holes and abstractions that if I used the same type of argument I would say you are bragging about being able to see a traitor based on distorted "facts" and lies, you have defected to non-reason, you do not make sense unless you're seen as a spinning tool.

Snowden is until something else is proven a whistleblower. And spinning and fabrication of weak arguments to support distorted conclusions is not evidens.

America is a strange country having a law to allow monitoring of all it's citizens. What's next: A Law confirming that everything that is spinned by the government, the NSA and their tools is evidence?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 10, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
Jghedge

You say: "His Words (Snowden's): ”I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all over the world. The locations of every station, we have what their missions are, and so forth.”

This is information about what he had access to from the whistleblower, nothing else. If these words make him a traitor in your eyes, you're extremely far out. And yes you are. American Security is immune to politics - wasn't that your words. Politics means discussion. You don't want discussion.

And if American security is immune to discussion - is then everyone discussing American security a traitor? I guess you are able to construct such an argument following your line of reasoning.

You're a fundamentalist and a tool.

And at the bottom of your heart you love discussion more than anything else, as your involvement on this thread shows.
WBraun

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Hedge uses USA Today for his ever present whitewashed projections of so called experts.

With good reason the MSM USA Today left out inviting people like Russ Tice and others Hedge never heard of.

Hedge as usual knows only heavily censored MSM spin news medias of half truths or no truths.

This why Hedge's whole view is so far gone he's just like the Republicans he so always rails against.

It's vacation time Joe, and get on plane to Hawaii and take a breather ......




k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
Joe, Perhaps Snowden went too far in his intel disclosures--the truth is we don't know.

However, your focusing on this is a red herring to what the actual substanance is with this whole deal, and that is our loss of civil liberties via the black curtain that is the NSA/FBI/CIA.


From a posting on an article about how the majority of Americans now feel the NSA has gone too far:

... I live in the supposed eco groovy college town of Arcata, and I've been starting to casually survey good friends and others, like the guy who works at the corner station who seems like a cool dude, and so far most are unconcerned about having all their data stored by the govt. in a high tech NSA system. They don't acknowledge the clear and present dangers of having advocacy groups and other activists and journalists surveilled, profiled, infiltrated, incarcerated, etc...let alone other nations governments, universities, citizens, etc. The common answer is "I don't have anything to hide. They've always done this, the technology just got better." It's very easy to lose touch with the struggles of the world up here "behind the redwood curtain."


Earlier I said it's not my conversations I'm worried about (at least not yet). However, the silencing of those who expose the wrongdoings of the gov't, and the muffling of any real journalism that might expose corruption--that keeps me turning at night.

Consider letting go of Snowden and concentrate on the real meat of this event.

It's the message and not the messenger.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
[you] claim that laws were broken, when you can't even name them.

I have named one--when the FICA court gave orders to Verizon. The FICA court is only supposed to give warrants for international affairs, not domestic.

They broke the law right there. And, it's a big one too.



I thought you caught that, but I suppose I need to keep reminding you.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 07:30pm PT
Interesting how quickly jghedge claims this is bunk:

American voters say 55 - 34 percent that Edward Snowden is a whistle-blower, rather than a traitor, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.


July 10, 2013 - U.S. Voters Say Snowden Is Whistle-Blower, Not Traitor, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Big Shift On Civil Liberties vs. Counter-Terrorism



Getting back to the message...

The Manning defense rested today.


The defense for Pfc. Bradley Manning rested Wednesday afternoon after hearing testimony from Harvard Professor Yochai Benkler, a "fourth estate" scholar who argued that WikiLeaks is "a legitimate journalistic organization" rather than an organization which aids "terrorist organizations," as has been portrayed by the U.S. government.

...

"In bringing this charge the US gov is saying, quite literally," Pilkington adds, "that by leaking to a website, Manning was handing the information to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida. If that doesn't put a chill on whistleblowing, I don't know what will."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
^^^ So, if somebody publishes anything the gov't claims is intel, they can slap an aiding the enemy charge on them, and away they go...


Personally I think that's super messed up, and I'm surprised that somebody with your intellect would think otherwise.


BTW, you know the Manning defense was barred from showing that there was no evidence of harm done by his leaks, right?
WBraun

climber
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Manning was handing the information to Osama bin Laden

LOL

Now we know where Hedge digs up his lies that he believes are true.

Unbelievably stupid.

Anyone using Bin Laden as being alive since 2002 is 100 percent known liar and total disinfo tool.

Hedge you are on vacation now.

You have no brains left .....


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 10, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
Let’s see if this is same: Maybe not but what stupid is, stupid does.

Two to three books were written about the raid on or the capture/killing of Bin Laden, as well as a couple of movies.

The book “No Easy Day” comes to mind or is best known one written by DEVGRU Red Squadron operator Matt Bissonnette ["Mark Owen”]. Even though the name they used was Seal Team Six is not correct. The United States Naval Special Warfare Development Group (NSWDG), or DEVGRU, is one of the United States' four secretive tier-one counter-terrorism and Special Mission Units. It is often referred to as SEAL Team Six, the name of its predecessor which was officially disbanded in 1987. DEVGRU is the correct name.

Because of its covert nature, the raid was a CIA operation with DEVGRU being transferred under CIA authority for its duration. Most information concerning DEVGRU is classified and details of its activities are not usually commented on by either the White House or the Department of Defense.

Now that the book had been written all sorts of comments were written of how classified information was compromised because of the Mark Owen’s giving all kinds of detailed information that the enemy now has in their little hands that can be used to bring down the USA.

CIA Director Leon Panetta was one of those being the most vocal. Some say it was political since it was so close to election time. Games people play is a better word: as in disinformation or information. Mostly the one first one is what you will get.

If you read the book, Owen did in a way pass on one and I mean only one piece of information that could be considered “Oh! That is new who would use that” but put it this way it is not classified. The CIA, NSA and any intelligent agency [unintelligent agency] can say toilet paper is classified and everyone thinking of using it would think do they mean we can’t use the classified section of a newspaper to wipe our ass?

During or right up to the raid when the guys were loading onto the stealth hilos the CIA tried to give the team to carry a special “classified” pack weighing 50# more or less; the team said screw you or close to it, we have enough to carry not on the list. The pack was one of those electronic pulses as in shutting off the communication, phones lines, electricity in a given circular range of so many/few miles.

Raid is on by the time the teams get to where/what to do; CIA uses their back up system by using an aircraft that accomplishes the same. Time is ticking away, they only have so many minutes [20?] but finally electricity is restored, phones back on line, cell phones working as well in the city and the delayed team members had two minutes of being in the dark and now in the light. Well not enough for anyone outside looking in. High walls surrounding Bin Laden’s hide away.

As for those stealth rear blades if their classified why would they be published by a well-known Government Agency 9 months before the raid. Providing if you knew where to look, you think that the enemy does not have access to this info?

So who is fooling who? It is the fools that let it happen. Government secrets as in leaking has been going on for years.

Not the team members to me, not Matt on writing the book, the only people I can think of is the biggest ones that sit in offices looking for additional classified sections when they run out of toilet paper.

Hell we all know who they are.

You have no brains left ..... Werner is correct on that one Hedge


paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
ok
no way in hell i read this entire thread, i'm just wading in to sidetrack it...

my band just released a song about the spy center out here in ut - oddly enough, called 'spy center' ;-)


http://www.reverbnation.com/thehighexplosives

its the one on top in the player. the plan was to offer it as an optional 99 cent DL with half the money going to the EFF, but at the moment it is free. feel free to share it - enjoy !
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
You think people with security clearances get to decide on their own what should and shouldn't be secret?


So, there should never be any whistleblowers? The Pentagon Papers should have never been leaked? The gov't should be able to do whatever it wants, in total secrecy? Is that what you're promoting?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Pagenmonkeyboy, lichen it!

Bitchen band name too.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
Joe, I suppose I need to remind you of what I am talking about, right?

I got loud and clear what your stance is on Snowden. And I've said, we don't know. Let's talk about the meat of the subject, what he revealed about the NSA spying and whistleblowers in general. But you seem to be deaf to what I'm talking about, all you can to is stick yourself to some crap about Snowden revealing some secret ops that you don't know squat about the actual content.

OK, you want to talk solely about Snowden being a traitor because he defected to China > Russia with laptops full of intel, of which we have no idea the contents. Go ahead, have a field day.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 10, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
ya know Joe, I think you're right! This is much ado about nothing.
WBraun

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:23am PT
national security is immune to politics

Deluded to the max.

Hypnotized by Goebbels.

Everywhere politics worms it's way in.

One can never trust a politician ever ........

WBraun

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:32am PT
NSA is responsible for over 3000 American deaths for its treasonous actions.

Stupid Hedge has no clue .......
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:34am PT
Bumping the video Karl Baba posted earlier:

Published Jul 9, 2013.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Tice
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:34am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBSV9BQXw6I

When will we wake up?

Interesting RT News segment during the last election.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Special access program
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Special access programs (SAPs) in the federal government of the United States of America are security protocols that provides highly classified information with safeguards and access restrictions that exceed those for regular (collateral) classified information. It may be a type of black project. A SAP can only be initiated, modified, and terminated within their department or agency; the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of Energy, Secretary of Homeland Security, the Attorney General, the Director of National Intelligence; their principal deputies (e.g. the Deputy Secretary of State in DoS and the Deputy Secretary of Defense in DoD); or others designated in writing by the President.[1] In addition to collateral controls, a SAP may impose more stringent investigative or adjudicative requirements, specialized nondisclosure agreements, special terminology or markings, exclusion from standard contract investigations (carve-outs), and centralized billet systems.[2]
Contents

1 Types and categories
2 Marking
3 Examples
4 See also
5 References
6 External links

Types and categories

Two types of SAP exist: acknowledged and unacknowledged. The existence of an acknowledged SAP may be publicly disclosed, but the details of the program remain classified. An unacknowledged SAP (or USAP) is made known only to authorized persons, including members of the appropriate committees of the United States Congress. Waived SAPs are a subset of unacknowledged SAPs in the Department of Defense. These SAPs are exempt by statutory authority of the Secretary of Defense from most reporting requirements and, within the legislative branch, the only persons who are required to be informed of said SAPs are the chairpersons and ranking committee members of the Senate Appropriations Committee, Senate Armed Services Committee, House Appropriations Committee, and the House Armed Services Committee.[3]

There are three categories of SAPs within the Department of Defense:[4]

Acquisition SAPs (AQ-SAPs), which protect the "research, development, testing, modification, and evaluation or procurement" of new systems;
Intelligence SAPs (IN-SAPs), which protect the "planning and execution of especially sensitive intelligence or CI units or operations";
Operations and Support SAPs (OS-SAPs), which protect the "planning, execution, and support" of sensitive military activities.

Only the Director of National Intelligence may create IN-SAPs. Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) control systems may be the most well-known intelligence SAPs. The treatment of SCI is singular among SAPs, and it seems there is some disagreement within the government as to whether or not SCI is a SAP. Defense Department sources usually state that it is,[5] and at least one publication refers to a separate SCI-SAP category alongside the three listed above.[6] The Intelligence Community, drawing on the DNI's statutory responsibility to protect intelligence sources and methods, finds a legal basis for SCI separate from that of SAPs, and consequently consider SCI and SAPs separate instances of the more general controlled access program.[7]
Marking

SAP documents require special marking to indicate their status. The words SPECIAL ACCESS REQUIRED, followed by the program nickname or codeword, are placed in the document's banner line. Abbreviations may be used for either element. Portion markings use SAR and the program's abbreviation. For example, a secret SAP with the nickname MEDIAN BELL would be marked SECRETSPECIAL ACCESS REQUIRED-MEDIAN BELL. Portions would be marked (SSAR-MB). [8] Multiple SAPs are separated by slashes. Compartments within SAPs may be denoted by a hyphen, and are listed alphanumerically. Subcompartments are separated by spaces, and are also listed alphanumerically. Markings do not show the hierarchy beyond the sub-compartment level. Sub-sub-compartments are listed in the same manner as sub-compartments.[9] A more complex banner line with multiple SAPs and subcompartments might read TOP SECRET//SAR-MB/SC-RF 1532-RG A691 D722.[10]

Older documents used different standard for marking. The banner line might read SECRETMEDIAN BELLSPECIAL ACCESS REQUIRED, and the portion marking would read (S//MB).[11] Other variations move the special access warning to a second line, which would read MEDIAN BELL Special Control and Access Required (SCAR) Use Only or some other phrase directed by the program security instructions.[12]
Examples

The following national or international SAPs, unless otherwise noted, are identified in 32 CFR 154.17:

Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI), national intelligence information concerning sources and methods which is protected by control systems defined by the Director of National Intelligence. Note that SCI markings are separate from those of other SAPs.
Single Integrated Operational Plan-Extremely Sensitive Information (SIOP-ESI, replaced by NC2-ESI), the national plan for nuclear war. Note that SIOP-ESI was listed among non-IC dissemination control markings on classified documents, not with other SAPs.
Presidential support activities
Nuclear Weapon Personnel Reliability Program
Chemical Personnel Reliability Program[13]
Access to North Atlantic Treaty Organization classified information at the staff level
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 11, 2013 - 01:58am PT
Joe, why don't you stop hijacking this thread with disinformation and boring comments and put in a job application where you can follow your dream


NSA recruitment drive goes horribly wrong

Staff from the National Security Agency got more than they bargained for when they attempted to recruit students to their organization earlier this week …

Bim Adewunmi
guardian.co.uk, Friday 5 July 2013 08.15 EDT

On Tuesday, the National Security Agency called at the University of Wisconsin on a recruitment drive.

Attending the session was Madiha R Tahir, a journalist studying a language course at the university. She asked the squirming recruiters a few uncomfortable questions about the activities of NSA: which countries the agency considers to be "adversaries", and if being a good liar is a qualification for getting a job at the NSA.

She has posted a recording of the session on Soundcloud, which you can hear above, and posted a rough transcript on her blog, The Mob and the Multitude. Here are some highlights.

The session begins ...

Tahir: "Do you consider Germany and the countries that the NSA has been spying upon to be adversaries, or are you, right now, not speaking the truth?"

Recruiter 1: "You can define adversary as 'enemy' and, clearly, Germany is not our enemy. But would we have foreign national interests from an intelligence perspective on what's going on across the globe? Yeah, we do."

Tahir: "So by 'adversaries', you actually mean anybody and everybody. There is nobody, then, by your definition that is not an adversary. Is that correct?"

Recruiter 1: "That is not correct."

Recruiter 2: "… for us, our business is apolitical, OK? We do not generate the intelligence requirements. They are levied on us ... We might use the word 'target'."

Tahir: "I'm just surprised that for language analysts, you're incredibly imprecise with your language. And it just doesn't seem to be clear."

Later ...

Tahir: "... this is a recruiting session and you are telling us things that aren't true. And we also know that the NSA took down brochures and factsheets after the Snowden revelations because those factsheets also had severe inaccuracies and untruths in them, right? So how are we supposed to believe what you're saying?"

Even later ...

Tahir: "I think the question here is do you actually think about the ramifications of the work that you do, which is deeply problematic, or do you just dress up in costumes and get drunk?" [A reference to an earlier comment the recruiter made about NSA employees working hard and going to the bar to do karaoke.]

Recruiter 2: "... reporting the info in the right context is so important because the consequences of bad political decisions by our policymakers is something we all suffer from."

Unnamed female student: "And people suffer from the misinformation that you pass along so you should take responsibility as well."

Later still ...

Male student: "General Alexander [head of the NSA] also lied in front of Congress."

Recruiter 1: "I don't believe that he did."

Male student: "Probably because access to the Guardian is restricted on the Department of Defence's computers. I am sure they don't encourage people like you to actually think about these things. Thank God for a man like Edward Snowden who your organisation is now part of a manhunt trying to track down, trying to put him in a little hole somewhere for the rest of his life. Thank God they exist."

And finally ...

Recruiter 2: "This job isn't for everybody, you know ..."

Tahir: "So is this job for liars? Is this what you're saying? Because, clearly, you're not able to give us forthright answers. I mean, given the way the NSA has behaved, given the fact that we've been lied to as Americans, given the fact that factsheets have been pulled down because they clearly had untruths in them, given the fact that Clapper and Alexander lied to Congress – is that a qualification for being in the NSA? Do you have to be a good liar?"

Recruiter 1: I don't believe the NSA is telling complete lies. And I do believe that you know, I mean people can, you can read a lot of different things that are, um, portrayed as fact and that doesn't make them fact just because they're in newspapers."

Unnamed female student: "Or intelligence reports."

Recruiter 1: "That's not really our purpose here today and I think if you're not interested in that ... there are people here who are probably interested in a language career."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:07am PT
http://www.boozallen.com/media-center/what-happening-at-booz-allen/details/why-the-private-sector-is-important-for-cybersecurity

Why the Private Sector is Important for Cybersecurity

Posted by Mike McConnell on July 10, 2013

Mike McConnell
Vice Chairman

Last week, I had the privilege of participating in important panel discussions during the 2013 Aspen Ideas Festival around the cyber threat to American infrastructure and national security. Recent events have generated debate in this country about national security – and that’s a healthy thing. I’ve been saying for many years that there are ways to protect privacy while improving security, and a national debate helps us better understand the requirements and tradeoffs.

Just as the conversation about cybersecurity has evolved over the past couple years to its current state – so has the threat. Information technology, although a benefit to all of us who depend on mobile devices and the Internet everywhere, has introduced an increased level of vulnerability that’s unprecedented. I laid out for the audience at the Ideas Festival my thoughts on the resulting security challenges that we now face and some options for addressing them.

First, today there is a real threat of cyber warfare; malware attack tools are putting the security of our intellectual property and national infrastructure (electrical grid, banking, transportation systems) at risk, and the threat of nation state vs. nation state cyber warfare looms. Yet the nature of this warfare has changed because, for example, it might not be in the interest of one nation to disrupt the U.S. money supply if it depends on this supply. So in this sense, certain circumstances offer a different level of deterrence.

What really worries me, though, is the fact that there are thousands of malware attack tools available and, sooner or later, they will be leaked and/or sold on the black market. This would give an extremist group – who is not deterred by things like a dependence on the U.S. financial system – the opportunity to attack our critical infrastructure and debilitate this country and its critical infrastructure.

The U.S. government plays an essential role in addressing these threats, but a great strength comes from its partnership with the private sector. I’m convinced we must continue to acknowledge the needs and value of private industry to help overcome the challenges and counter the threats, which are more likely motivated by political, social and economic conditions.

As a nation, we’ve done a pretty good job at understanding our attackers, but to stay ahead, we must out-innovate them. Free market competition has a way of creating innovative products, services, and ideas because of the economic incentive. Only the best ideas win the economic competition; just ask Apple. Without continued input and collaboration from the private sector, the government runs a big risk of losing innovation needed to stay ahead of our cyber adversaries.

Increasingly, some cyber adversaries see the value of the free market, too – they let others do the work that they will later steal. Public reports have specifically cited China and Russia for this practice. We cannot stifle innovation and creativity, but we do need to protect it so that U.S. businesses continue to thrive, and that’s another reason for the government and private industry to work together.

My hope is that the current debate will result in a better understanding of this point, and spur leaders in the government and the private sector to examine more closely ways to balance privacy and security and to take advantage of every resource our nation has to fight this growing, constantly evolving cyber threat. We need to move quickly because “sooner or later” is sooner than we think.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:23am PT
Obama recently said: I'm just going to go along with all these jackasses because I don't want to end up like JFK did.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:53am PT
jghedge keeps posting a (selective) quote from Snowden, here's the full quote for context:

GLENN GREENWALD: If your motive had been to harm the United States and help its enemies, or if your motive had been personal material gain, were there things that you could have done with these documents to advance those goals that you didn’t end up doing?

EDWARD SNOWDEN: Absolutely. I mean, anybody in the positions of access with the technical capabilities that I had could, you know, suck out secrets, pass them on the open market to Russia. You know, they always have an open door, as we do. I had access to, you know, the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets all around the world, the locations of every station we have, what their missions are and so forth. If I had just wanted to harm the U.S., you know, that—you could shut down the surveillance system in an afternoon. But that’s not my intention. And I think, for anyone making that argument, they need to think, if they were in my position, and, you know, you live a privileged life—you’re living in Hawaii, in Paradise, and making a ton of money—what would it take to make you leave everything behind?

The greatest fear that I have regarding the outcome for America of these disclosures is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures. They’ll know the length that the government is going to grant themselves powers, unilaterally, to create greater control over American society and global society, but they won’t be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things, to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interests. And the months ahead, the years ahead, it’s only going to get worse, until eventually there will be a time where policies will change, because the only thing that restricts the activities of the surveillance state are policy. Even our agreements with other sovereign governments, we consider that to be a stipulation of policy rather than a stipulation of law. And because of that, a new leader will be elected, they’ll flip the switch, say that because of the crisis, because of the dangers that we face in the world, you know, some new and unpredicted threat, we need more authority, we need more power, and there will be nothing the people can do at that point to oppose it, and it’ll be turnkey tyranny.

Full transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/10/youre_being_watched_edward_snowden_emerges

Also, +1 to DMT for clear thinking and boiling things down to the essential.
crøtch

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:08am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
crøtch

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:22am PT
- yet there's Drake, apparently not even charged with anything for doing it.


He was charged with 10 felony counts. Did you even hear what he had to say? It took 5 years to clear his name and get the charges dropped. Turns out he didn't release any classified information, it was all already part of the public record.

What's your take on his message, jhedge? Drake is articulate and has a thesis. Do you care to address the substance of his talk?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
In the American newspaper world of spinning everything can serve as truth

"The extraordinary claim that China had drained the contents of Snowden's laptops first appeared in the New York Times in a June 24 article. The paper published the claim with no evidence and without any attribution to any identified sources.

In lieu of any evidence, the NYT circulated this obviously significant assertion by quoting what it called "two Western intelligence experts" who "worked for major government spy agencies". Those "experts" were not identified. The article then stated that these experts "said they believed that the Chinese government had managed to drain the contents of the four laptops that Mr. Snowden said he brought to Hong Kong" (emphasis added).

So that's how this "China-drained-his-laptops" claim was created: by the New York Times citing two anonymous sources saying they "believed" this happened. From there, it predictably spread everywhere as truth."
WBraun

climber
Jul 11, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
From there, it predictably spread everywhere as truth.

Which Hedge regurgitates here ad nauseam believing its all real since he really knows nothing.

Hedge loves "anonymous sources" too.

As dumb as a Republican he so always calls.

Stupid ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
The pattern (repeated):

"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
Jghedge did one more dishonest thing. He went from a single poster's words to the generalisation "you people". He's clearly a tool and seems to be a compulsive verbal manipulator... American Democrats do not need enemies if they have got friends like Jghedge...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
Guys...cmon. I know you're emotionally invested in this up to your eyeballs, but a little less drama

this coming from teh guy who has posted 24/7 on this thread and kept it going (where is obvious)...really?

and you insinuate others are emotionally invovled in this?

lmao.

you must have blown a fuse there joe.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 11, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
They found Snowden in Siberia.





























Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 11, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
The Cooperation between Microsoft and the NSA revealed

"Microsoft has collaborated closely with US intelligence services to allow users' communications to be intercepted, including helping the National Security Agency to circumvent the company's own encryption, according to top-secret documents obtained by the Guardian.

The files provided by Edward Snowden illustrate the scale of co-operation between Silicon Valley and the intelligence agencies over the last three years. They also shed new light on the workings of the top-secret Prism program, which was disclosed by the Guardian and the Washington Post last month.

The documents show that:

• Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;

• The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;

• The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;

• Microsoft also worked with the FBI's Data Intercept Unit to "understand" potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;

• Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;

• Material collected through Prism is routinely shared with the FBI and CIA, with one NSA document describing the program as a "team sport".

The latest NSA revelations further expose the tensions between Silicon Valley and the Obama administration. All the major tech firms are lobbying the government to allow them to disclose more fully the extent and nature of their co-operation with the NSA to meet their customers' privacy concerns. Privately, tech executives are at pains to distance themselves from claims of collaboration and teamwork given by the NSA documents, and insist the process is driven by legal compulsion."

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/11/microsoft-nsa-collaboration-user-data
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 11, 2013 - 06:23pm PT



Would you like this guy at some time to be your Sec. of Defense, the one that wrote Rex 84 [Readiness Exercise 1984] Murders too many to count but will kill you as will Erik Prince R2 with their gang of mercs.


Garden Plot is the newest one? well just updated been around as well.

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:46am PT
This morning there was a guy trying to get through my door. 40-50 years of age, a little bit overweight, looked well washed, but sweaty, short dark hair, thick black spectacles, white striped shirt, a brown leather bag in his left hand. You know, we never see this kind of guys in the eastern part of the city. When they're here, they're errand boys sent from a stranger part of the world...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 12, 2013 - 10:24am PT
Those damn terrorists, they are everywhere.

link: In 'Chilling' Ruling, Chevron Granted Access to Activists' Private Internet Data

"Sweeping" subpoena violates rights of those who spoke out against oil giant's devastating actions in Ecuador

A federal judge has ruled to allow Chevron, through a subpoena to Microsoft, to collect the IP usage records and identity information for email accounts owned by over 100 environmental activists, journalists and attorneys.


This is the real goal of the mass surveillance system, to crush the rise of the people against the global corporate overlords, not to thwart some imaginary brown-skinned bomber with a nuke.


Not to worry though, another black flag op will convince us it's for our own good.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
You need to look into the Chevron case to see what its about. A multi billion dollar judgement in Ecuador with pretty solid proof of bribing the judge. I'm a human rights lawyer and there is no higher calling in my opinion, but bribing a judge, and writing his opinion is not allowed. Chevron already proved that the judge's order is word for word the same as a legal memo written by the plaintiffs counsel beforehand. I know several of the lawyers involved personally and they are pretty dirty, one of them recently sanction $50 k by the court for an environmental case, the people supposedly got cancer but then it turned out they never saw a doctor and only thought they had cancer. This is not big brother surveillance, it's a legitimate subpeona imo.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Don, the use of NSA data by a cooperation is NOT within the charter of the program. Unless, of course, you consider multinational corporations to be an arm of the government.

Dirty pool or not, giving NSA data to corporations is illegal, pure and simple.


Now, if the tables were turned, and We The People were able to subpena records on the corporations whom we believe to be breaking the law, perhaps we'd be better off. But I doubt it, even with hard evidence, our gov't refuses to go after the big fish who rake billion$ from We The People.

And yes, I can name cases to uphold this last accusation.
WBraun

climber
Jul 12, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Where the fuk is Hedge today.

We're going to flush him down the toilet today for his bullsh!t.

:-)
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
k-man, its not a subpeona for nsa data, its a subpeona to a google for a customer's emails, happens all the time. I can issue subpeonas like this myself, although I've never had occasion to do so for a third party. My provider only keeps my emails for a couple of years, and I have no obligation to keep them, so if my emails are ever subpeonaed, there are only 2 years worth. If google's emails go back 9 years, they probably consider it to be a service to their customers to keep them that long.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:23pm PT
Where the fuk is Hedge today.

We're going to flush him down the toilet today for his bullsh!t.

he is spinning in the drain, along with a turd.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 12, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
Snowden seems to be able to attract attractive women, first the ballerina and now leaker and human rights types:


Not supermodels but pretty cute for press conferences in a Russian airport.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 12, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
Don, you're right (of course). The Chevron inquiry had nothing to do with the NSA--they subpoenaed the records from MSFT. No FICA court involvement...

My bad. It just came up at a time when the NSA is in the papers for subpoenaing MSFT for such records, and my numb brain made the incorrect connection.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 12, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Hey no problem k-man, you just happened to mention a lawyer scandal I'm interested in. Here's a more detailed description of the Chevron case.
As I said human rights law is my passion and my case against Chiquita is similar in some ways ... but no fraud involved and no bribery paid. The fact that news reporters are relating this to the Snowden case kind of pisses me off.

http://www.americanlawyer.com/digestTAL.jsp?id=1202599826041

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 13, 2013 - 12:31am PT
No Ordinary Day in Moscow
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/12/no-ordinary-day-moscow

Russia, Others Should Treat Snowden’s Asylum Claim Fairly | Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/07/12/russia-others-should-treat-snowden-s-asylum-claim-fairly

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 13, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
Some of those fuks (I was going to type folks) are running and operating the U.S. secret services. They torture people for a living. Those people are EVIL and I don't give a goddamned they are on 'our side.'

I think this is where the problems start to come out. I don't worry so very much about the egocentric maniac who is evil and knows it. What I'm concerned most about are the people who "know" the righteousness of their cause. Those people are the people who will do anything.

I think that might describe many folks here.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 13, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
What I'm concerned most about are the people who "know" the righteousness of their cause. Those people are the people who will do anything.

I think that might describe many folks here.


Gosh Mike, more concerned about a bunch of climbers spouting their opinions on this informal forum than you are about folks who lie and torture for a living? I find that pretty interesting, and fairly revealing.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 13, 2013 - 03:59pm PT

Mercosur Countries Recall European Ambassadors Over Morales Plane Blockade

Block announces it will be "inflexible" in the face of the aggression faced by Morales


The sh!t is starting to fly...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 13, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
But no recalls of ambassadors from the US...

Why do you think that is, when the Mercosur Countries believe it was the US who requested that the EU states block Morales' flight?

I have an idea, and it dovetails with why the EU states followed the [supposed] US request to block the flight.

Why does the EU bow to the US, when they are also pissed at the Snowden revelations?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 14, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/12/us_backs_off_propaganda_ban_spreads_government_made_news_to_americans

Not that the networks weren't enough!
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 15, 2013 - 12:56am PT
Time for MORE, not less, details of the NSA, private "security firms" and their dirty business, to be "leaked" to the American public.

http://www.thenation.com/article/174851/strange-case-barrett-brown#axzz2Z5QylW3a

http://wiki.project-pm.org/wiki/Main_Page

http://wiki.project-pm.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:42am PT
"The state would leech into the veins and arteries of our new societies, gobbling up every relationship expressed or communicated, every web page read, every message sent and every thought googled, and then store this knowledge, billions of interceptions a day, undreamed of power, in vast top secret warehouses, forever. It would go on to mine and mine again this treasure, the collective private intellectual output of humanity, with ever more sophisticated search and pattern finding algorithms, enriching the treasure and maximizing the power imbalance between interceptors and the world of interceptees. And then the state would reflect what it had learned back into the physical world, to start wars, to target drones, to manipulate UN committees and trade deals, and to do favors for its vast connected network of industries, insiders and cronies."

 Assange, Julian; Appelbaum, Jacob; Müller-Maguhn, Andy; Zimmermann, Jérémie (2013-01-09). Cypherpunks (Kindle Locations 65-71). OR Books. Kindle Edition.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jul 15, 2013 - 05:32am PT
It is as thought Daniel Ellsberg, in leaving the pentagon, killed a guard to walk out with his papers

Jeez Ken M, I never knew that Ellsberg killed a guard. I tried to look it up online, but came up with nada. Can you point out where I can find that Ellsberg killed a guard?

Otherwise, it is slander.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 15, 2013 - 11:23am PT
Nice article Joe!


Dershowitz, for his part, insisted there is no gray area:

"Well, it doesn't border on criminality – it's right in the heartland of criminality. The statute itself, does punish the publication of classified material, if you know that it's classified," explained the guest. "Greenwald – in my view – clearly has committed a felony."



Indeed, publishing the Pentagon Papers was a criminal act. Lock all those NYT/Washington Post criminals UP! They HATE America.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Joe, I agree--Snowden took a step too far when he talked about having intel on ops. For one, that has let folks such as yourself get distracted from the real meat of his revelations, which is the scope of NSA surveillance.

But to say that if something is classified, then it's criminal to publish it... All I can say is "Heil!"
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Why does some junior level outside contractor have so much sensitive information? It's a wonder the government has any secrets at all!
WBraun

climber
Jul 15, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
He doesn't.

It's a diversion disinfo tactic to confuse and keep you from the real truth .....
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 15, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
I'm worried the USG is going to kill Greenwald, Snowden, etc to keep them from publishing whatever it is Glenn's been referring to lately.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 15, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
^^Lovegasoline, take a look at this story too, that someone posted way upthread -

Jailed Journalist Barrett Brown Faces 105 Years For Reporting on Hacked Private Intelligence Firms

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/11/jailed_journalist_barrett_brown_faces_105

PETER LUDLOW: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the most crazy things in the whole thing was when Coca-Cola approached Stratfor, and they were concerned about PETA, you know, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. And why, I’m not entirely sure, but one of the people in Stratfor said, "Well, the FBI has a classified file on PETA. I’ll see if I can get it for you." Now, that little story sums up a lot of stuff that’s wrong about this. First of all, why are private—why is Coca-Cola going to a private intelligence company for this? Why is—why did the private intelligence company feel that they had immediate access to a classified file by the FBI? And why did the FBI have a classified file, to begin with? I mean—but, to me, the creepiest part of that very creepy little story is the fact that the guy at Stratfor felt that he had access to this classified file by the FBI. And the Barrett Brown case revealed something like this, as well. It’s almost like the FBI has become just another private security firm, that it’s become like a private cop for these companies, as it were. And, I mean, that’s part because of the revolving door. It’s part because they get pressed into service for companies that want inside information on activist organizations like PETA.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 15, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Snowden Nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Swedish professor nominates whistleblower for heroically revealing extent of U.S. government surveillance

A Swedish professor has nominated NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden for the Nobel Peace Prize for revealing the extent of the NSA's vast surveillance program "in a heroic effort at great personal cost."

In his letter to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee, Stefan Svallfors, a professor of sociology at Sweden's Umeå University, added that awarding the prize to Snowden would "also help to save the Nobel Peace Prize from the disrepute it incurred by the hasty and ill-conceived decision to award U.S. President Barack Obama the 2009 award."

"I did not seek to enrich myself," Snowden said. "I did not seek to sell US secrets. I did not partner with any foreign government to guarantee my safety."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
Wednesday, Nov 23, 2011 09:17 AM PDT
Bush and Blair found guilty of war crimes for Iraq attack
A tribunal in Malaysia applies the Nuremberg Principles to brand the two leaders as war criminals
By Glenn Greenwald

A tribunal in Malaysia, spearheaded by that nation’s former Prime Minister, yesterday found George Bush and Tony Blair guilty of “crimes against peace” and other war crimes for their 2003 aggressive attack on Iraq, as well as fabricating pretexts used to justify the attack. The seven-member Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal — which featured an American law professor as one of its chief prosecutors — has no formal enforcement power, but was modeled after a 1967 tribunal in Sweden and Denmark that found the U.S. guilty of a war of aggression in Vietnam, and, even more so, after the U.S.-led Nuremberg Tribunal held after World War II. Just as the U.S. steadfastly ignored the 1967 tribunal on Vietnam, Bush and Blair both ignored the summons sent to them and thus were tried in absentia.

The tribunal ruled that Bush and Blair’s name should be entered in a register of war criminals, urged that they be recognized as such under the Rome Statute, and will also petition the International Criminal Court to proceed with binding charges. Such efforts are likely to be futile, but one Malaysian lawyer explained the motives of the tribunal to The Associated Press: “For these people who have been immune from prosecution, we want to put them on trial in this forum to prove that they committed war crimes.” In other words, because their own nations refuse to hold them accountable and can use their power to prevent international bodies from doing so, the tribunal wanted at least formal legal recognition of these war crimes to be recorded and the evidence of their guilt assembled. That’s the same reason a separate panel of this tribunal will hold hearings later this year on charges of torture against Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and others.

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/23/bush_and_blair_found_guilty_of_war_crimes_for_iraq_attack/

Glenn Greenwald (email: GGreenwald@salon.com) is a former Constitutional and civil rights litigator and is the author of three New York Times Bestselling books: two on the Bush administration's executive power and foreign policy abuses, and his latest book, With Liberty and Justice for Some, an indictment of America's two-tiered system of justice. Greenwald was named by The Atlantic as one of the 25 most influential political commentators in the nation. He is the recipient of the first annual I.F. Stone Award for Independent Journalism, and is the winner of the 2010 Online Journalism Association Award for his investigative work on the arrest and oppressive detention of Bradley Manning.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Here’s what I find striking about this. Virtually every Serious political and media elite in America, by definition, would scoff at this tribunal; few things are considered more fringe or ludicrous than the notion that George Bush and Tony Blair should be punished as war criminals just because they aggressively attacked another nation and caused the deaths of at least 150,000 innocent people and the displacement of millions more. But the only thing this Malaysian tribunal is doing is applying the clear principles of the Nuremberg Tribunal as enunciated by lead prosecutor and former U.S. Attorney General Robert Jackson in his Opening and Closing Statements at Nuremberg:

The central crime in this pattern of crimes, the kingpin which holds them all together, is the plot for aggressive wars. The chief reason for international cognizance of these crimes lies in this fact. . . .

What makes this inquest significant is that these prisoners represent sinister influences that will lurk in the world long after their bodies have returned to dust. . . . . And let me make clear that while this law is first applied against German aggressors, the law includes, and if it is to serve a useful purpose it must condemn aggression by any other nations, including those which sit here now in judgment.

The “kingpin” crime of the German defendants was not genocide or ethnic cleansing, but rather “the plot for aggressive war,” and the only way that the Nuremberg Tribunal will “serve a useful purpose” is if it applies equally in the future to “aggression by any other nations, including those which sit here now in judgment.” Who do you think history will (and should) look more favorably upon? Those in this Kuala Lumpur tribunal who objected to the heinous war crime that is the attack on Iraq and attempted to hold the responsible leaders accountable under the Nuremberg principles, or those in America and Britain who mocked those efforts (when they weren’t ignoring them) and demanded that they and their leaders be fully exempted from the principles they imposed and decreed as universal after World War II?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
UPDATE: Andrew Sullivan, who yesterday expressed angry bafflement over the fact that many liberals do not swoon for President Obama the way Jon Chait does, today noted that the U.S. under Obama imposes even less accountability for abuse of power and war crimes than does Bahrain:

Bahrain’s Sunni government promised “no immunity” for anyone suspected of abuses and said it would propose creating a permanent human rights watchdog commission. “All those who have broken the law or ignored lawful orders and instructions will be held accountable,” said a government statement, which says the report acknowledges that the “systematic practice of mistreatment” ended shortly after martial law was repealed on June 1.

As Andrew put it: “So a Middle East dictatorship has more democratic accountability for abuse of power, including torture, than the US under Obama.” Beyond things like this and the facts set forth in the last paragraph here, perhaps Andrew could use today’s post of his to help clear up the towering mystery he raised yesterday of liberal disenchantment with Obama. That American war criminals are being aggressively shielded from any and all accountability is not an ancillary matter but one of enduring historical significance.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zybdTqgz9Z8

Edward Snowden, Moscow Press Conference, 12 July 2013. Sarah Harrison at left, unidentified translator at right.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
so have you ever wondered why it takes Windows so long to boot up and shut down??

and what about all those 'automatic updates"???

"So if you use Windows consider everything you have ever done on your computer online or offline already in the hands of the NSA. Remember those pictures you took? Even if they have never left your computer somebody has seen them and chances are they are in a database somewhere. Even if you erased them."

The significance here (and I heard about this a bit back too) is that the back door happens BEFORE encryption, which puts the lie to their claim they're only processing the meta-data and not the content. The meta-data can't be encrypted or the message would simply get lost and never get to its destination.


Snowden leak: Microsoft added Outlook.com backdoor for Feds
NSA praises Redmond for 'collaborative teamwork'
By Iain Thomson in San Francisco, 11th July 2013

Agentless Backup is Not a Myth

There are red faces in Redmond after Edward Snowden released a new batch of documents from the NSA's Special Source Operations (SSO) division covering Microsoft's involvement in allowing backdoor access to its software to the NSA and others.

Documents seen by The Guardian detail how the NSA became concerned when Microsoft started testing Outlook.com, and asked for access. In five months Microsoft and the FBI created a workaround that gives the NSA access to encrypted chats on Outlook.com. The system went live in December last year – two months before Outlook.com's commercial launch.

Those Outlook users not enabling encryption get their data slurped as a matter of course, the documents show. "For Prism collection against Hotmail, Live, and Outlook.com emails will be unaffected because Prism collects this data prior to encryption," an NSA newsletter states.

Microsoft's cloud storage service SkyDrive is also easy to access, thanks to Redmond's work with the NSA. The agency reported on April 8, 2013 that Microsoft has built PRISM access into Skydrive in such a way as to remove the need for NSA analysts to get special authorization for searches in Microsoft's cloud.

"Analysts will no longer have to make a special request to SSO for this – a process step that many analysts may not have known about," the leaked NSA document states. "This new capability will result in a much more complete and timely collection response. This success is the result of the FBI working for many months with Microsoft to get this tasking and collection solution established."

The documents also detail how Microsoft and Skype have also been working with the intelligence agencies to install monitoring taps. Work began on integrating Prism into Skype in November 2010, they state, three months before the company was issued with an official order to comply by the US Attorney General.

Data collection began on February 6, 2011, and the NSA document says the planned systems worked well, with full metadata collection enabled. It praised Microsoft for its help, saying "collaborative teamwork was the key to the successful addition of another provider to the Prism system."

Work to integrate Skype into Prism into Skype didn't stop there, however. In July 2012 an NSA newsletter states Microsoft installed an upgrade that tripled the amount of Skype videos that can be monitored by NSA analysts.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
Computer security expert Bruce Schneier has a link to an interesting story in his latest newsletter:

http://blog.rubbingalcoholic.com/post/52913031241/its-not-just-metadata-the-nsa-is-getting-everything

It’s not just metadata. The NSA is getting everything.

...So they’re storing the actual content of phone calls and emails in some NSA database somewhere. No big deal, and rest assured, they won’t look at it unless they really don’t like you. I guess that’s what Representative Loretta Sanchez meant when she said that Snowden’s leaks were just the "tip of the iceberg."

This shouldn’t come as a shock, but look at it for what it is: to date, the government has only acknowledged that they receive (not "collect") telephone records on millions of American citizens. They have not acknowledged that they also get the content from those phone calls. They’ve noted that the specific FISC order that Snowden leaked does not apply to content, but they’ve stopped short of denying that similar court orders exist that would apply to content. And really, they wish we’d stop asking them about it because it’s classified.

Need more evidence? In a recent interview about the Boston Marathon investigation, former FBI counterterrorism agent Tim Clemente shocked CNN’s Erin Burnett when he nonchalantly revealed that the government could listen in on past phone conversations between suspect Tsarnaev and his wife, or indeed any Americans. When CNN dragged him back in the next day for follow-up questioning, he stuck to his guns, adding that "all digital communications" are recorded and stored, and that "no digital communication is secure."


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1305/01/ebo.01.html

BURNETT: Tim, is there any way, obviously, there is a voice mail they can try to get the phone companies to give that up at this point. It's not a voice mail. It's just a conversation. There's no way they actually can find out what happened, right, unless she tells them?

TIM CLEMENTE, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM AGENT, FBI: No, there is a way. We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It's not necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of her. We certainly can find that out.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
In a statement, Microsoft said that it only complies with legal demands for customer information for law enforcement and national security purposes, and that the company isn't involved in giving "the kind of blanket orders discussed in the press over the past few weeks."

"When we upgrade or update products legal obligations may in some circumstances require that we maintain the ability to provide information in response to a law enforcement or national security request. There are aspects of this debate that we wish we were able to discuss more freely," it said.

Not that Microsoft hasn't been making a big thing about the privacy of its communications systems in the past. Its Gmail Man ad campaign lambasted Google for snooping in people's mail to match them with advertisers, and the tagline "Your email is your business" seems somewhat ironic these days. The advert is no longer on Microsoft's YouTube channel.

The leaked documents come from the NSA's Special Source Operations (SSO) division, which handles commercial company liaison for data collection by the agency. The documents show that, once collected by Prism, the NSA shares its data directly with the CIA and FBI via a custom application.

"The FBI and CIA then can request a copy of Prism collection of any selector..." the document says. "These two activities underscore the point that Prism is a team sport!"

In a joint statement, Shawn Turner, spokesman for the director of National Intelligence, and Judith Emmel, spokeswoman for the NSA, told The Guardian that the wiretapping referred to in the document was court-ordered and was subject to judicial oversight.

"Not all countries have equivalent oversight requirements to protect civil liberties and privacy," they said. "In practice, US companies put energy, focus and commitment into consistently protecting the privacy of their customers around the world, while meeting their obligations under the laws of the US and other countries in which they operate."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
" The only reason to keep the interpretation of the law a secret is because it'll be a huge embarrassment and show widespread abuse."

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130708/01055723732/doj-says-public-has-no-right-to-know-about-secret-laws-feds-use-to-spy-us.shtml

DOJ Says Public Has No Right To Know About The Secret Laws The Feds Use To Spy On Us
from the what,-you-want-to-know-that-stuff? dept
So, we were just discussing the insanity of the FISA court (FISC) basically acting as a shadow Supreme Court, making broad rulings in total secrecy that have created a secret body of law that the public is not allowed to know about. Given increasing revelations about these shadow laws, the ACLU and other public interest groups are trying, yet again, to get access to some of these key rulings. All along, they've been extremely careful to note that they're not asking FISC to reveal specific foreign intelligence issues, operations or targets: merely the parts of the rulings that identify what the law is -- i.e., how it's being interpreted by the courts. Because that seems rather fundamental to a functioning democracy.

However, as you might expect, the Justice Department has now hit back with a new filing that says, flat out, the public has no right to know what the secret court is ruling on and how it's codifying secret laws. The argument is, basically, that because FISC rulings have almost always been secret, then it's perfectly reasonable that they're secret. In other words, it's perfectly legal for secret laws to remain secret, because they're secret. Later it also argues that actually revealing the law would be (oooooooh, scary!) dangerous.

Let's make this simple: yes, revealing specific details of various surveillance efforts and targets could create security issues, no doubt. But revealing how a United States' law is interpreted can never by itself create a national security issue. And that's all that's being asked of here. The DOJ is being incredibly dishonest and disingenuous in conflating the two issues, arguing that because the FISC deals with intelligence operations, that its rulings on the interpretation of the law must also be secret. But that's wrong. You can reveal the basic interpretation of the law without revealing the specific intelligence efforts and methods. The only reason to keep the interpretation of the law a secret is because it'll be a huge embarrassment and show widespread abuse.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:37pm PT

NSA Bosses Mantra: Who Cares What The Law Says, 'Collect It All'
from the law-enforcement's-job-isn't-supposed-to-be-easy dept
The Washington Post has a profile of NSA boss Keith Alexander in which they make it clear that his passion is to "collect it all" when it comes to data.

“Rather than look for a single needle in the haystack, his approach was, ‘Let’s collect the whole haystack,’ ” said one former senior U.S. intelligence official who tracked the plan’s implementation. “Collect it all, tag it, store it. . . . And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it.”

Others have certainly reported on this before, including long-time NSA watcher James Bamford, but more and more people are realizing how the NSA functions these days. Combine the "collect it all" mentality with the fact that Alexander is the head of both the NSA, which is supposed to do signal intelligence, and the US Cyber Command, which is supposed to handle cyber security, and you have a clear conflict of interests that can lead to some sticky situations.

“He is the only man in the land that can promote a problem by virtue of his intelligence hat and then promote a solution by virtue of his military hat,” said one former Pentagon official, voicing a concern that the lines governing the two authorities are not clearly demarcated and that Alexander can evade effective public oversight as a result. The former official spoke on the condition of anonymity to be able to talk freely.

Remember how we just had the talking points that the NSA used with the media concerning the Utah Bluffdale data center. In those talking points, the NSA played up the US Cyber Command aspects, and how they were "partnering" with tech companies for that purpose. They left out almost entirely the surveillance side of things. And that's the problem. The NSA under Alexander can hide under the claim that they're trying to "protect our networks" allowing them to avoid admitting that they're collecting everything and spying on everyone.

Furthermore, the moral panics and FUD that Alexander spews to make his job easier is really quite sickening:

“Everyone also understands,” he said, “that if we give up a capability that is critical to the defense of this nation, people will die.”

You can't have perfect security, and there are serious tradeoffs that Alexander doesn't seem to care about in collecting all data. There's little actual evidence that these activities have really prevented anything serious that couldn't have been prevented via more traditional means.

Furthermore, there's a key point in all of this that often gets ignored: the US Constitution was put in place, on purpose, with the idea that "making law enforcement's job easier" is not a valid excuse. The whole point of civil liberties is that we recognize that we give people more freedoms and that means law enforcement's job is harder. But we think that's a good thing, because we trust that on the whole, keeping the innocent from being spied upon and accused is much more important that stopping every possible crime or finding every criminal. But, General Alexander and others in the NSA appear to want to flip this concept on its head. And that's incredibly dangerous.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130715/12311723806/nsa-bosses-mantra-who-cares-what-law-says-collect-it-all.shtml
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:40pm PT

Yet Another Constitutional Scholar Explains Why NSA Surveillance Is Unconstitutional
from the worth-reading dept
We're seeing more and more legal experts weighing in on why the NSA's surveillance program is unconstitutional. The latest, from Randy Barnett, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown, who has written an entire book on the subject, is a really detailed explanation for how the NSA's surveillance program is unconstitutional on multiple levels.

By banning unreasonable "seizures" of a person's "papers," the Fourth Amendment clearly protects what we today call "informational privacy." Rather than seizing the private papers of individual citizens, the NSA and CFPB programs instead seize the records of the private communications companies with which citizens do business under contractual "terms of service." These contracts do not authorize data-sharing with the government. Indeed, these private companies have insisted that they be compelled by statute and warrant to produce their records so as not to be accused of breaching their contracts and willingly betraying their customers' trust.

Barnett explains some of the history of the 4th Amendment, and how it was initially designed to allow juries of citizens to determine whether or not a search was reasonable, because the Founders of the country did not trust judges to "jealously guard the liberties of the people." However, over time that's consistently shifted, as law enforcement officials were made immune from civil suits and judges increasingly had power over whether or not such searches were reasonable. Further, he notes how hoovering up pretty much all metadata is quite similar to (I'd argue, in many ways much worse than) the "general warrants" issued by the Britsh crown, which colonial America was trying to get away from with things like the 4th Amendment.

However, he says this goes beyond just the 4th Amendment, but implicates the 5th Amendment as well:

Still worse, the way these programs have been approved violates the Fifth Amendment, which stipulates that no one may be deprived of property "without due process of law." Secret judicial proceedings adjudicating the rights of private parties, without any ability to participate or even read the legal opinions of the judges, is the antithesis of the due process of law.

He goes on to point out that the secrecy of these programs makes it all that much worse, and unconstitutional on a different level as well, where the government is supposed to serve the people, rather than the other way around:

The secrecy of these programs makes it impossible to hold elected officials and appointed bureaucrats accountable. Relying solely on internal governmental checks violates the fundamental constitutional principle that the sovereign people must be the ultimate external judge of their servants' conduct in office. Yet such judgment and control is impossible without the information that such secret programs conceal. Had it not been for recent leaks, the American public would have no idea of the existence of these programs, and we still cannot be certain of their scope.

It seems worth noting that many of these reasons are in addition to reasons that others have presented as well. And, yet, to date, we've seen no one in the government offer a serious rationale for why the programs are constitutional in any way, other than hand-waving at a single 1979 Supreme Court ruling about the "third party doctrine," which requires a real stretch to pretend that allowed the kind of dragnet surveillance happening today.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130714/00490423793/yet-another-constitutional-scholar-explains-why-nsa-surveillance-is-unconstitutional.shtml
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
The Differences Between Obama And Bush On NSA Surveillance, According To Virtual Obama

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130710/13582823759/differences-between-obama-bush-nsa-surveillance-according-to-virtual-obama.shtml

It was concerning when the Bush administration was secretly collecting your information. Heck, I had concerns back then myself. But, everyone knows that George W. Bush was not a good President. Whereas, I am a good President. See the difference? So, while you could not trust George W. Bush to secretly collect your data, you can trust me. I'm a trustworthy guy.

Another important difference between my administration and the Bush administration is that when the Bush administration secretly spied on you, the Bush administration could not point to a single judge willing to say their program was legal. We, on the other hand, can point to such a judge. I'm not going to tell you who this judge is, or why he or she thinks our program is legal. If I did that, it would, obviously be harder for me to convince you that the program is legal. Instead, I'm just going to tell you that we secretly found one judge who was willingly to secretly say that it was legal for us to collect all of your data....

The Bush administration could not tell you that it had informed Congress. Whereas my administration took steps to ensure that if you ever found out about our secret surveillance program, we could tell you that we informed Congress. To be clear, when I say 'we informed Congress,' I am not saying that we did out best to ensure that Congress had enough information to have an informed debate on this vital national security issue. What I am saying is that we informed Congress enough for me to stand here and tell you that 'we informed Congress.' What Congress actually knew is not important....

If Congress did not want us to secretly interpret the law, then Congress should not have passed a law for us to secretly interpret....

If you, the American people, did not want me to secretly collect your data, then you should not have elected me President. Yes, I know many of you were probably unaware that I wanted to secretly collect your data, especially since I said I would not secretly collect your data. But, I choose to believe that you elected me to be your President, because you believe that if someone has to secretly collect your data, that someone should be me. And, as we all know, my secret interpretations of your support are more important than the reasons you actually supported me.

Finally, while I do not believe there is any reason to debate this issue, I will tell you that I welcome a debate on this issue. In fact, I'm so grateful that Edward Snowden started this debate that I have decided to stop at nothing to ensure he spends the rest of his life in a federal prison.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/domestic-actually-worsened.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+juancole%2Fymbn+%28Informed+Comment%29&utm_content=FaceBook

The Guardian has released part two of the Hong Kong interview with Edward Snowden, in which he clarifies his reasons for going public. He talks about how the warrantless demand for Verizon phone records was the misuse of a USA Patriot Act provision intended to allow monitoring of an individual, but which was applied to a whole society.

Toward the end of the interview Snowden said that his instinct was to let the system correct itself, but he watched in horror as it did not do so. In fact, he said, the abuses were growing over time, and were worse than in the previous administration.

Although Snowden did not name Obama specifically, it seems clear from what he said that disappointment with the president’s refusal to step back from Bush-era domestic spying, and, indeed, the ways in which the Obama administration was extending it, drove him to blow the whistle. He also expressed disappointment that NSA officials were lying to Congress about what they are doing. He clearly has concluded that it is a sneaky and manipulative government agency that is not subject to sufficient oversight, in part because it misrepresents its actions to the overseers.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
Good god man think of all the Covert ops (that's spy lingo for u noobs) have been compromised... At Microsoft!

That's just for spying on the American people, DMT.

edit - about 15 years ago German government and industry were wary and nervous about using Windows, as there were rumors of an NSA "backdoor" built into Micro$oft products. It'd be interesting to know the history and extent of M$ and NSA collaboration.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 15, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Snowden Honored by Ex-Intel Officials
July 8, 2013

Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence, an organization of former national security officials, has honored NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, praising his decision to reveal the extent of U.S. government electronic surveillance of people in the United States and around the world.

Edward Snowden, an ex-contractor for the National Security Agency, has been named recipient of this year’s award for truth-telling given by Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence, the group announced Monday.

Most of the Sam Adams Associates are former senior national security officials who, with the other members, understand fully the need to keep legitimate secrets. Each of the U.S. members took a solemn oath “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”

NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.

When secrecy is misused to hide unconstitutional activities, fealty to that oath – and higher duty as citizens of conscience – dictate support for truth-tellers who summon the courage to blow the whistle. Edward Snowden’s disclosures fit the classic definition of whistle-blowing.

Former senior NSA executive Thomas Drake, who won the Sam Adams award in 2011, has called what Snowden did “an amazingly brave act of civil disobedience.” Drake knows whereof he speaks. As a whistleblower he reported waste, fraud, and abuse – as well as serious violations of the Fourth Amendment – through official channels and, subsequently, to a reporter. He wound up indicted under the Espionage Act.

After a lengthy, grueling pre-trial proceeding, he was exonerated of all ten felony charges and pleaded out to the misdemeanor of “exceeding authorized use of a government computer.” The presiding judge branded the four years of prosecutorial conduct against Drake “unconscionable.”

The invective hurled at Snowden by the corporate and government-influenced media reflects understandable embarrassment that he would dare expose the collusion of all three branches of the U.S. government in perpetrating and then covering up their abuse of the Constitution. This same collusion has thwarted all attempts to pass laws that would protect genuine truth-tellers like Snowden who see and wish to stop unconstitutional activities.

http://consortiumnews.com/2013/07/08/snowden-honored-by-ex-intel-officials/

“These are the times that try men’s souls,” warned Thomas Paine in 1776, adding that “The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.”

It is in this spirit that Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence are proud to confer on Edward Snowden the Sam Adams Award for 2013.

The Sam Adams Award, named in honor of the late CIA analyst Sam Adams, has been given in previous years to truth-tellers Coleen Rowley of the FBI; Katharine Gun of British Intelligence; Sibel Edmonds of the FBI; Craig Murray, former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan; Sam Provance; former U.S. Army Sergeant at Abu Ghraib; Maj. Frank Grevil of Danish Army Intelligence; Larry Wilkerson, Colonel, U.S. Army (ret.), former chief of staff to Colin Powell at State; Julian Assange of WikiLeaks; Thomas Drake, former senior NSA official; Jesselyn Radack, Director of National Security and Human Rights, Government Accountability Project; and Thomas Fingar, former Assistant Secretary of State and Director, National Intelligence Council.

Editor’s Note: Further helping to explain why Snowden should be honored for his brave actions – and responding to some of the criticism of his decisions from the mainstream news media – are: Daniel Ellsberg’s op-ed in The Washington Post, “Snowden Made the Right Call When He Fled the US” and Ray McGovern’s “Obama Needs to Take Charge on NSA Spying Scandal.”

Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence was established in 2002 by colleagues and admirers of the late CIA intelligence analyst Sam Adams to recognize those who uphold his example as a model for those in intelligence who would aspire to the courage to speak truth to power. In honoring Adams’s memory, SAAII confers an award each year to someone in intelligence or related work who exemplifies Sam Adam’s courage, persistence, and devotion to truth — no matter the consequences.

It was Adams who discovered in 1967 that there were more than a half-million Vietnamese Communists under arms. This was roughly twice the number that the U.S. command in Saigon would admit to, lest Americans learn that claims of “progress” were bogus.
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:16am PT

from http://www.bromygod.com/2013/07/07/40-of-the-best-nsa-protest-signs/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 16, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
The CIA will just have to bump up their drug running game to make up the funding shortfalls. No worries. And $4.4 billion ain't amount to jack in their black budget.

Lovegasoline said:
"Funding for the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies will see a $4.4 billion decrease under President Barack Obama’s fiscal 2014 budget request, even as those agencies deal with the across-the-board spending cuts imposed last month."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Snowden probably did the right thing by bringing the spying into the public debate.

Yes he broke our laws by doing so and he will pay that price for decades to come.

But all in all, I am kind of glad he did what he did.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
But it's really not at the level of attention, even after what Snowden did, to claim it's being publicly debated.

obviously you are wrong, proven by this entire thread and national discussion/outrage
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 16, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Hola Lovegassoline:
"what are the estimates on CIA income generated by drug trafficking? What about hard evidence?"
I read where the assistant director of the FBI, when asked "Why can't you get drugs under control", said: "because at least 1/2 of the time, our investigations are ended prematurely when we find CIA involvement". The news story was later wiped and disappeared. Estimates: I have no clue. Bet that's limited to a couple of people. Hard evidence also hard to come by, but it's there.

Links: (please realize that the CIA hires people, pays them pretty good money - we'll, it's your tax dollars, to rewrite these kinds of things) Plenty of good info gets through though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_drug_trafficking

When you see the Mena, Ark. drug notes on Wikipedia, consider this: http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/BODIES.html




You can do some searching for individual stories and instances that are real well investigated, like "Dark Alliance". (very difficult to do as the government controls the press in both various overt and covert manners) http://articles.latimes.com/2006/aug/18/opinion/oe-schou18

It's out there. If you don't think that the .gov controls the press, do some research, start with Googling former CNN reporter emmy award winner Amber Lyons. The Pentagon alone hires (taxpayer money of course) over 28,000 people full time to help us learn what they think the truth is. Wonder what the total hires throughout the gov for this kind of "assistance" is.




I'm not saying that I don't love my country, just that I don't think that this is a good approach.



k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:39pm PT
And the people creating the outrage are making the same mistakes the Benghazi/IRS conspiracy nuts did - promoting wild, unfounded claims based on their agenda-based speculation

About those wild, unfounded claims:

In a recent interview about the Boston Marathon investigation, former FBI counterterrorism agent Tim Clemente shocked CNN’s Erin Burnett when he nonchalantly revealed that the government could listen in on past phone conversations between suspect Tsarnaev and his wife, or indeed any Americans. When CNN dragged him back in the next day for follow-up questioning, he stuck to his guns, adding that "all digital communications" are recorded and stored, and that "no digital communication is secure."


You know they're collecting both metadata and content. While you might be able to justify the first, the second is a clear offense of our civil rights.



The new lawsuit just filed today does not look like the whole thing is blowing over...

NSA Sued Over 'Blatantly Unconstitutional Attack on Civil Liberties':
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/16-9
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jul 16, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Hey arson, 1500 posts since 4/30? Really?

Step away from the keyboard.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
I'm looking at CNN's front page right now - nothing there about Snowden or the NSA.

so CNN's webpage today is the definitive proof that all this silly NSA spying stuff was just a 72 hour media creation and not a legitimate national conversation?

wanna try again to denigrate this debate?

is it off the front page of the National Enquirer yet?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
I'm looking at CNN's front page right now

And I'm looking at the front page of HuffPo, Drudge, New York Times, Washington Post.

Each has at least one story...


As for the NSA or the CIA coming out and publicly admitting to collecting content, well I think you'd sooner see Obama say he used Benghazi for political gain.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 16, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
Joe, we all know that MSM is controlled by a select few. And those few are also some of the biggest donors to both major political parties of the US.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
Email exchange between Edward Snowden and former GOP Senator Gordon Humphrey

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/16/gordon-humphrey-email-edward-snowden

Mr. Snowden,

Provided you have not leaked information that would put in harms way any intelligence agent, I believe you have done the right thing in exposing what I regard as massive violation of the United States Constitution.

Having served in the United States Senate for twelve years as a member of the Foreign Relations Committee, the Armed Services Committee and the Judiciary Committee, I think I have a good grounding to reach my conclusion.

I wish you well in your efforts to secure asylum and encourage you to persevere.

Kindly acknowledge this message, so that I will know it reached you.

Regards,
Gordon J. Humphrey
Former United States Senator
New Hampshire
WBraun

climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
The real perpetrators got Hedge right where they want him.

Crawling up a dead end street to Snowden all while they continue their nefarious ways.

All because the Hedge's of the world are too stupid to investigate what's really going on.

Instead the Hedge's of the world look to the stupid CNN Huff post and all their same know nothing speak nothing but blind alley waste of time talk.

Man are Americans stupid as sh!t ......
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 16, 2013 - 09:56pm PT
Hedge obviously didn't read the link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/16/gordon-humphrey-email-edward-snowden

Snowden's reply to Sen. Humphrey:

Mr. Humphrey,

Thank you for your words of support. I only wish more of our lawmakers shared your principles - the actions I've taken would not have been necessary.

The media has distorted my actions and intentions to distract from the substance of Constitutional violations and instead focus on personalities. It seems they believe every modern narrative requires a bad guy. Perhaps it does. Perhaps, in such times, loving one's country means being hated by its government.

If history proves that be so, I will not shy from that hatred. I will not hesitate to wear those charges of villainy for the rest of my life as a civic duty, allowing those governing few who dared not do so themselves to use me as an excuse to right these wrongs.

My intention, which I outlined when this began, is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them. I remain committed to that. Though reporters and officials may never believe it, I have not provided any information that would harm our people - agent or not - and I have no intention to do so.

Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect. While it has not been reported in the media, one of my specializations was to teach our people at DIA how to keep such information from being compromised even in the highest threat counter-intelligence environments (i.e. China).

You may rest easy knowing I cannot be coerced into revealing that information, even under torture.

With my thanks for your service to the nation we both love,

Edward Snowden
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 16, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
Whereas I never read the nonsense that Jhedge says, I always read what Wbraun and lovegasoline say. They are fairly coherent.

I thought that there was a good point made in the Gov't media (Stratfor) today. http://www.realclearworld.com/articles/2013/07/16/keeping_the_nsa_in_perspective_105318.html It seems like a shitload of words at first. But consider that there are less words than Jhedege posted on this lengthy thread, and this at least, makes much more sense.

Keeping the NSA in Perspective
By George Friedman

In June 1942, the bulk of the Japanese fleet sailed to seize the Island of Midway. Had Midway fallen, Pearl Harbor would have been at risk and U.S. submarines, unable to refuel at Midway, would have been much less effective. Most of all, the Japanese wanted to surprise the Americans and draw them into a naval battle they couldn't win.

The Japanese fleet was vast. The Americans had two carriers intact in addition to one that was badly damaged. The United States had only one advantage: It had broken Japan's naval code and thus knew a great deal of the country's battle plan. In large part because of this cryptologic advantage, a handful of American ships devastated the Japanese fleet and changed the balance of power in the Pacific permanently.

This -- and the advantage given to the allies by penetrating German codes -- taught the Americans about the centrality of communications code breaking. It is reasonable to argue that World War II would have ended much less satisfactorily for the United States had its military not broken German and Japanese codes. Where the Americans had previously been guided to a great extent by Henry Stimson's famous principle that "gentlemen do not read each other's mail," by the end of World War II they were obsessed with stealing and reading all relevant communications.

The National Security Agency evolved out of various post-war organizations charged with this task. In 1951, all of these disparate efforts were organized under the NSA to capture and decrypt communications of other governments around the world -- particularly those of the Soviet Union, which was ruled by Josef Stalin, and of China, which the United States was fighting in 1951. How far the NSA could go in pursuing this was governed only by the extent to which such communications were electronic and the extent to which the NSA could intercept and decrypt them.

The amount of communications other countries sent electronically surged after World War II yet represented only a fraction of their communications. Resources were limited, and given that the primary threat to the United States was posed by nation-states, the NSA focused on state communications. But the principle on which the NSA was founded has remained, and as the world has come to rely more heavily on electronic and digital communication, the scope of the NSA's commission has expanded.

What drove all of this was Pearl Harbor. The United States knew that the Japanese were going to attack. They did not know where or when. The result was disaster. All American strategic thinking during the Cold War was built around Pearl Harbor -- the deep fear that the Soviets would launch a first strike that the United States did not know about. The fear of an unforeseen nuclear attack gave the NSA leave to be as aggressive as possible in penetrating not only Soviet codes but also the codes of other nations. You don't know what you don't know, and given the stakes, the United States became obsessed with knowing everything it possibly could.

In order to collect data about nuclear attacks, you must also collect vast amounts of data that have nothing to do with nuclear attacks. The Cold War with the Soviet Union had to do with more than just nuclear exchanges, and the information on what the Soviets were doing -- what governments they had penetrated, who was working for them -- was a global issue. But you couldn't judge what was important and what was unimportant until after you read it. Thus the mechanics of assuaging fears about a "nuclear Pearl Harbor" rapidly devolved into a global collection system, whereby vast amounts of information were collected regardless of their pertinence to the Cold War.

There was nothing that was not potentially important, and a highly focused collection strategy could miss vital things. So the focus grew, the technology advanced and the penetration of private communications logically followed. This was not confined to the United States. The Soviet Union, China, the United Kingdom, France, Israel, India and any country with foreign policy interests spent a great deal on collecting electronic information. Much of what was collected on all sides was not read because far more was collected than could possibly be absorbed by the staff. Still, it was collected. It became a vast intrusion mitigated only by inherent inefficiency or the strength of the target's encryption.

Justified Fear

The Pearl Harbor dread declined with the end of the Cold War -- until Sept. 11, 2001. In order to understand 9/11's impact, a clear memory of our own fears must be recalled. As individuals, Americans were stunned by 9/11 not only because of its size and daring but also because it was unexpected. Terrorist attacks were not uncommon, but this one raised another question: What comes next? Unlike Timothy McVeigh, it appeared that al Qaeda was capable of other, perhaps greater acts of terrorism. Fear gripped the land. It was a justified fear, and while it resonated across the world, it struck the United States particularly hard.

Part of the fear was that U.S. intelligence had failed again to predict the attack. The public did not know what would come next, nor did it believe that U.S. intelligence had any idea. A federal commission on 9/11 was created to study the defense failure. It charged that the president had ignored warnings. The focus in those days was on intelligence failure. The CIA admitted it lacked the human sources inside al Qaeda. By default the only way to track al Qaeda was via their communications. It was to be the NSA's job.

As we have written, al Qaeda was a global, sparse and dispersed network. It appeared to be tied together by burying itself in a vast new communications network: the Internet. At one point, al Qaeda had communicated by embedding messages in pictures transmitted via the Internet. They appeared to be using free and anonymous Hotmail accounts. To find Japanese communications, you looked in the electronic ether. To find al Qaeda's message, you looked on the Internet.

But with a global, sparse and dispersed network you are looking for at most a few hundred men in the midst of billions of people, and a few dozen messages among hundreds of billions. And given the architecture of the Internet, the messages did not have to originate where the sender was located or be read where the reader was located. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack. The needle can be found only if you are willing to sift the entire haystack. That led to PRISM and other NSA programs.

The mission was to stop any further al Qaeda attacks. The means was to break into their communications and read their plans and orders. To find their plans and orders, it was necessary to examine all communications. The anonymity of the Internet and the uncertainties built into its system meant that any message could be one of a tiny handful of messages. Nothing could be ruled out. Everything was suspect. This was reality, not paranoia.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
Are you begining to smell the fish???
WBraun

climber
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
The guy who cries the loudest and the most knows the least. ^^^^

That's why he needs so much attention.

It's a known fact ......
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jul 16, 2013 - 11:58pm PT
werner wrote/spoke/
The guy who cries the loudest and the most knows the least. ^^^^

That's why he needs so much attention.

It's a known fact ......

i think you mean guy's and girl's!


shmowden will either be killed by f-35's during his so called amnesty transport or remain in moscow.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:08am PT

Former Justice attorney seeks $23 billion in damages for NSA surveillance programs

By Josh Hicks, Published: June 13 at 6:00
the writer is aformer Reagan-era Justice Department prosecutor who runs a right-leaning political-advocacy group is suing the federal government over its controversial electronic-surveillance programs.

Activist attorney Larry Klayman filed two class-action lawsuits this week in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, seeking a combined $23 billion in damages.

Klayman, who founded the political advocacy group Freedom Watch, claims the National Security Administration surveillance programs that monitor phone data and Internet communications violate citizens’ reasonable expectation of privacy, as well as their rights to free speech and freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

“Government dishonesty and tyranny against the people have reached historic proportion,” Klayman said in a statement. “The time has come for ‘We the People’ to rise up and reclaim control of our nation.”

Former Booz Allen Hamilton contractor Edward Joseph Snowden leaked details of the surveillance programs to the Washington Post and Guardian newspaper of Britain.

Klayman named the NSA, the Justice Deparment, President Obama, Attorney General Eric Holder and 12 communications and Internet companies as defendants in a class-action lawsuit he filed on Wednesday. In that case, he seeks $20 billion in damages, as well as orders to stop the surveillance programs and eliminate any records collected through them.

Earlier in the week, Klayman filed a separate lawsuit against Verizon and the Obama administration, requesting the same orders in addition to $3 billion in damages.

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) has also threatened to file a class-action lawsuit against the Obama administration for its surveillance programs.

“I’m going to be seeing if I can challenge this at the Supreme Court level,” Paul said on “Fox News Sunday.” “I’m going to be asking all the Internet providers and all of the phone companies, ask your customers to join me in a class action lawsuit. If we get 10 million Americans saying we don’t want our phone records looked at, then somebody will wake up and say things will change in Washington.”

Obama has defended the NSA surveillance programs, saying the government does not collect information on individual callers or eavesdrop on Americans’ conversations without a warrant. Gen. Keith Alexander, head of the NSA, said during a Senate hearing on Wednesday that the surveillance programs have thwarted dozens of terrorist plots.

Klayman, who describes himself as “the one man Tea Party” in his bio, is no stranger to lawsuits against the federal government. He filed at least 18 against the Clinton administration, according to a 1998 Washington Post article by David Segal.

Klayman authored the book “Whores: Why and How I Came to Fight the Establishment.” He also served as the basis for the character Harry Klaypool in the NBC series “West Wing,” according to his bio.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2013/06/13/former-justice-prosecutor-seeks-23-billion-in-damages-for-nsa-surveillance-programs/
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 12:57am PT
Poor Joe is at the end of the dead end alley spinning around in circles babbling incoherently.

This is what happens to people who get lost and lose their minds ......
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:02am PT
I'm not interested at all in Snowden.

But you are.

You're sucked into the illusion ......
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:05am PT
Intel gave Snowden away weeks ago.

You missed the boat all along.

This is what happens to people lost in the dead end alleys .......
crøtch

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 02:54am PT
"Further, no intelligence service - not even our own - has the capacity to compromise the secrets I continue to protect."

That means he's used encryption that can't be broken in a timely fashion through brute force. It's likely that the keys aren't in his possession, and more than one key from multiple sources is required to decrypt the data.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:30am PT
If you believe Mr. Snowden was acting alone . . . well . . .

jhedge, could you please explain WHY we need covert ops that have no effective oversight or accountability?

Your whole arguement is predicated upon this one big assumption: We NEED all this secret BS. Are you really that blind to the potential for abuse of such programs? What is your apparent trust in the beneficance of our government based on?
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:49am PT
C'mon, you're avoiding the question.

Why? For starters, I wonder how much money is going down this black hole that could be used to do something productive.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:58am PT
You don't care???

Funny, you sure do seem to be spending an inordinate ammount of time defending something you don't care about.

Pfffft . . .
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:02am PT
The stupid Hedge's of the world conspire with other hedge's of the world to bully, beat the sh!t out of everyone on the planet for their own greedy selves.

Then when those people fight back they call them terrorists that the Hedge's of the world originally created.

The hedge's of the world then create a huge draconian surveillance system which really is a illusionary wall to create the illusion that protects them from the source of their own creation.

Stupidest people on the planet have created this phoney illusionary garbage and have been peddling this garbage for a long time.

People are waking up to these stupid retards running the world into the ground ......



k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
^^^ Totally creepy story, Lovegasoline.


Yes, incredibly naive to think the blanket surveillance is for "terrorism." And equally naive to think they are collecting only metadata.


FWIW, my favorite definition of metadata is: data about data.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 17, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Gen. Keith Alexander, director the NSA: “Rather than look for a single needle in the haystack, his approach was, ‘Let’s collect the whole haystack,’ ” said one former senior U.S. intelligence official who tracked the plan’s implementation. “Collect it all, tag it, store it. . . . And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it.”

"Numerous NSA documents we've already published demonstrate that the NSA's goal is to collect, monitor and store every telephone and internet communication that takes place inside the US and on the earth. It already collects billions of calls and emails every single day. Still another former NSA whistleblower, the mathematician William Binney, has said that the NSA has "assembled on the order of 20 trillion transactions about US citizens with other US citizens" and that "estimate only was involving phone calls and emails."

The NSA is constantly seeking to expand its capabilities without limits. They're currently storing so much, and preparing to store so much more, that they have to build a massive, sprawling new facility in Utah just to hold all the communications from inside the US and around the world that they are collecting - communications they then have the physical ability to invade any time they want ("Collect it all, tag it, store it. . . . And whatever it is you want, you go searching for it").

That is the definition of a ubiquitous surveillance state - and it's been built in the dark, without the knowledge of the American people or people around the world, even though it's aimed at them. How anyone could think this should have all remained concealed - that it would have been better had it just been left to fester and grow in the dark - is truly mystifying.

Perhaps the coining of a punchy phrase by the Washington Post to describe all of this - "collect it all" - will help those DC media figures who keep lamenting their own refusal to cover the substance of the NSA stories begin to figure out why they should cover the substance and how they can. The rest of the world is having no trouble focusing on the substance of these revelations - rather than the trivial dramas surrounding the person who enabled us to know of all this - and discussing why those revelations are so disturbing. Perhaps US media figures can now follow that example."
crøtch

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 03:35pm PT

from
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-jimmy-carter-kritisiert-usa-a-911589.html
translated by google

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter was in the wake of the NSA Spähskandals criticized the American political system. "America has no functioning democracy," Carter said Tuesday at a meeting of the "Atlantic Bridge" in Atlanta.

Previously, the Democrat had been very critical of the practices of U.S. intelligence. "I think the invasion of privacy has gone too far," Carter told CNN. "And I think that is why the secrecy was excessive." Overlooking the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden said Carter, whose revelations were long "likely to be useful because they inform the public."
Carter has repeatedly warned that the United States sharply declined due to excessive restriction of civil rights, their moral authority. Last year he wrote in an article in the "New York Times", new U.S. laws "never before seen breach our privacy by the government" allowed the.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 17, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Good one crotch. Wonder why english language news agencies aren't picking it up?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 17, 2013 - 07:36pm PT
Now we have "three hops", and this:

"The statute says 'collection'," congressman Jerrold Nadler told Cole. "You're trying to confuse us by talking use."


Also:

"You're going to lose it entirely,"



Read all about it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/17/nsa-surveillance-house-hearing
crøtch

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
I'd love to see a full English transcript of the remarks Carter made yesterday, Don Paul. My German friend turned me on to Carter's statement. It's startling when a living former president says that there is no democracy in the US. Was he talking about Congressional gridlock or NSA spying? More context is needed.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
Why is The Guardian the only source for all this?

Am I really supposed to believe in this entrenched-interest angle that's supposedly keeping Congress and the MSM from getting involved?


Because the Guardian lies like the FBI, is that's what you're insinuating Joe?

We quote FBI agents, and Joe's reply is "They lie." The Guardian runs an article, and Joe's reply is "we trust one guy?" Watch out Joe, there's only so much sand to stick your head into, and those climate change denier's already have the Sahara sewn up.
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Snowden compromised nothing at all.

Stupid people here don't realize he's revealed nothing new that wasn't already revealed years ago while all you stupid fools were asleep at the wheel.

All he revealed was already revealed for years.

Except you stupid fools labeled it as a conspiracy theory.

Now that the MSM actually made it front page news people became shocked like it was something no one ever knew.

Americans are so stupid .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:11pm PT
It's time Joe.

Go to the bank, take out all your money, and buy a clue.

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/07/17-9

Is two sources enough, or do you still need more proof this happened. Geeze...
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:23pm PT

The Citizens United case held that corporations can make unlimited campaign contributions because they have freedom of speech. Carter has also referred to this as legal bribery.
WBraun

climber
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Hedge -- "There's nothing there."

We know that there's nothing in your head.

You don't have to keep telling us you know nothing.

You can take your vacation now.

Eat some ice cream too.

Ice cream is nice .....
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:46pm PT


WBraun


Hedge -- "There's nothing there."

We know that there's nothing in your head.

You don't have to keep telling us you know nothing.

You can take your vacation now.

Eat some ice cream too.

Ice cream is nice .....

SIZZLE!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 17, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
You're reacting to drama, not facts. There's nothing there.


Move along, no House judiciary committee looking at this, all just drama... No facts ...


Hahahahahahahaha ...
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 17, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
Again, where is the domestic MSM on this? Where is Congress on this? They've both been cowed? Both Congress and the press

Joe, you a hallucinating

this story has been all fuking over the MSM AND the internet

outrage on ALL the Sunday morning talk shows

President Carter for christ sake just yesterday speaking against the NSA spying

NUMEROUS members of CONGRESS has expressed their personal outrage

yet YOU make up your own reality that it is a media non issue

on this, you are as fixated, arrogant, and factually ignorant as those on the political right you do deservedly criticize for the SAME behavior
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 17, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
this thread relates an extremely important topic of conversation

joe hedge has failed to demonstrate deserving to dominate this conversation

one obnoxious neighbor can spoil an entire community if granted undeserved attention

that appears to be Joe's underlying intent...never mind why...

can we please demonstrate the mental discipline to ignore his ranting and carry on with sharing information on this important topic
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:46am PT
@jghedge
He never went to jail. Never. The gov't could have incarcerated him at any time. Didn't happen.

Ellsberg never had his ability to speak out restricted in any way shape or form. It literally never happened.

Surely you can't be that ignorant of the Pentagon Papers case, can you? The fact that Ellsberg isn't right now, languishing in a Federal prison is more of a happy accident than anything else...


Kissinger: I think Mitchell ought to go easy trying Ellsberg until we've broken the Vietnam War one way or the other. Because that son-of-a-bitch -- First of all, I would expect -- I know him well... I am sure he has some more information... I would be that he has more information that he's saving for the trial. Examples of American war crimes that triggered him into to. I don't know but it would be my instincts.

President: Uh huh.

Kissinger: It's the way he'd operate.

President: [indistinct: Postpone?] Ellsberg prosecution...

Kissinger: Secondly, once we've broken the war in Vietnam, then we can say, this son-of-a-bitch nearly blew it. Then we have, then we're in strong shape -- then no one will give a damn about war crimes. ...Because he is a despicable bastard.

Daniel Ellsberg, Secrets, pp 440
WBraun

climber
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:49am PT
He has ably defended his position,

That position is none.

He's defending he knows nothing.

How wonderful to spend your life defending you know nothing all while claiming you know something.

No wonder it is etched in stone.

"One can never trust a politard"
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:55am PT
a wise man is known by the smart things he doesn't say
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 18, 2013 - 07:47am PT
^^^ +1

Remember, freedom and security are inversely proportional.
Freedom and personal responsibility are directly proportional.
I'm used to the USA being a "free" country. I've never heard it called "Land of the safe, home of the dependent".
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Jhedge represents a position. That position places national security above all else, including freedom and morality. Folks who subscribe to this school of thought feel the U.S. should pursue her declared (and undeclared) enemies anywhere, anytime, regardless of the inconvenience of law. They will bend the law when able and break it where ever necessary, if they think it furthers their primay objective of assuring national security and winning. Whatever winning is.

sounds like Dick Cheney.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:16am PT
And where in fuk's name did I ever claim that FBI agents lie? Where?
    jghedge


Sorry I couldn't get to this earlier (I had other plans last evening).

Just a couple of days ago, I reposted this:

In a recent interview about the Boston Marathon investigation, former FBI counterterrorism agent Tim Clemente shocked CNN’s Erin Burnett when he nonchalantly revealed that the government could listen in on past phone conversations between suspect Tsarnaev and his wife, or indeed any Americans. When CNN dragged him back in the next day for follow-up questioning, he stuck to his guns, adding that "all digital communications" are recorded and stored, and that "no digital communication is secure."

To this astounding claim from an FBI agent that content is being collected, you replied:


Jul 16, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
...
And you could find former FBI agents to say just about anything about the IRS and Benghazi, too.

Essentially, you discounted the FBI agent's statement because... Well, because they lie.

Does that jog your memory?


I think Werner's right, time for a little vacation, you can't even remember what you wrote the day before.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:53am PT
A couple of other related news items:


Judge refuses to drop charge of aiding the enemy against Manning

Now, if you publish anything that is deemed state secret, you can be charged with aiding the enemy.


Appeals Court Strikes Down Injunction Against Indefinite Detention in NDAA

And they can put you away forever, without formal charges or trial.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 18, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Joe, I'm not solo here in believing that this sets a very sad precedent.

But you have a point, I'm not savvy on how military tribunal laws infects civil law. But seeing how we're headed towards the militarization of the civil police force, perhaps there's a thinner line between the two than many would like to imagine.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 18, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Argument is over boyz, Snowden's joining Goldman Sachs and has received a full Presidential Pardon. You saw it here first.

Read it and weep: http://dailycurrant.com/2013/07/03/edward-snowden-joins-goldman-sachs-receives-full-pardon/

bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Jul 18, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
Daily Currant is a hoax site.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 18, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
So, you are saying that the headline's "Selena Gomez Says Bieber Has ‘Tiny, Weird Penis’", "Ann Coulter Shoots Black Cat on Neighborhood Watch" and "NASA Finds Message From God on Mars" are also false then?

Hardly believable sir.

Want to bet that Hedge wants to debate that for the next 3 years?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
Under the guidelines of the ordinance, any registered drone hunter would be given $100 if he presents "identifiable parts of an unmanned aerial vehicle whose markings and configuration are consistent with those used on any similar craft known to be owned or operated by the United States federal government."

According to KMGH-TV, the licenses would cost $25 a year. The board will consider the measure on Aug. 6.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/17/colorado-town-concerned-about-surveillance-considers-drone-hunting-licenses/?test=latestnews#ixzz2ZRr3KjIC
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 18, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
Here you go rSin:

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/7/18/glenn_greenwald_growing_backlash_against_nsa

Is that liberal enough for you?

One of the best segments DN has done in a while.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
gotta go to them furinners newspapers to get the story.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Judith-Miller-Obama-is-criminalizing-news-gathering-315599

Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 18, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
You have to KNOW the full might of the NSA will be focused on any editor that dares cross them.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
crøtch

climber
Jul 19, 2013 - 12:42am PT
A little more sunshine...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/07/201371704225666982.html

A US court has ordered the Obama administration to declassify a 2008 court decision justifying the Prism spying programme revealed last month by whistleblower Edward Snowden.

The ruling, issued earlier this week, will show how the state has legally justified its covert data collection programmes under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Judge Reggie Walton of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court issued the ruling to declassify the decision. The government is expected to decide by August 26 which parts of the 2008 decision may be published.

The scope and scale of Prism, which collects millions of private foreign communications with American citizens, was leaked to the media last month by Snowden. Its operation is overseen by the FIS Court and its appeals body, the FIS Court of Review.

The ruling to declassify comes after a challenge by the internet firm, Yahoo, on the constitutionality of the programme.

It and a number of internet firms including Facebook, Google, AOL and Microsoft, were compelled to provide information to the National Security Agency (NSA), which runs Prism.

A statement from Yahoo on Tuesday said that it was "very pleased" with the court's ruling.

"Once those documents are made public, we believe they will contribute constructively to the ongoing public discussion around online privacy," Yahoo said.

NSA sued

Meanwhile, 19 organisations represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a suit against the NSA for violating their right of association by illegally collecting their call records.

The coalition includes Unitarian church group, gun ownership advocates, and a broad coalition of membership and political advocacy groups.

"The First Amendment protects the freedom to associate and express political views as a group, but the NSA's mass, untargeted collection of Americans' phone records violates that right by giving the government a dramatically detailed picture into our associational ties," Cindy Cohn, the legal director for the EFF, said.

"Who we call, how often we call them, and how long we speak shows the government what groups we belong to or associate with, which political issues concern us, and our religious affiliation.

"Exposing this information – especially in a massive, untargeted way over a long period of time – violates the Constitution and the basic First Amendment tests that have been in place for over 50 years."

Data requests

Meanwhile a number of major US Internet companies, including Microsoft, Google and Facebook have asked the government for permission to disclose the number of national security-related user data requests they receive.

Also on Tuesday, Microsoft published an lengthy letter to US Attorney General Eric Holder asking for greater freedom to publicly discuss how it turns over user information to the government.

The letter was a response to a The Guardian newspaper report that said Microsoft had given authorities the ability to circumvent encryption of Outlook emails and to capture Skype online chats. The company says that report is inaccurate.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:24am PT
now we have former head of NSA General Hayden, now director for Motorola Solutions, using his knowledge gained from the NSA to try and herd off a competitor. now while he may be correct, thats not the point. now you can bet these NSA guys who learned by spyong on others will be paid some good bucks to work for corporations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/10191154/Ex-CIA-chief-accuses-Huawei-of-industrial-espionage.html

The former head of the CIA and the National Security Agency (NSA) in the USA claims that he has seen hard evidence that communications company Huawei has engaged in espionage on behalf of the Chinese government.

In an extraordinary interview with the Australian Financial Review newspaper, General Michael Hayden alleged that Huawei has shared “intimate and extensive knowledge of the foreign telecommunications systems” with the Chinese state.

He claimed to have reviewed a briefing paper from Huawei two or three years ago, when the company was trying to establish a footprint in the United States. While acknowledging that the paper said “all the right things,” Hayden still refused to endorse their presence in the US.

“God did not make enough briefing slides on Huawei to convince me that having them involved in our critical communications infrastructure was going to be okay. This is not blind prejudice on my part. This was my considered view based on a four-decade career as an intelligence officer,” he said.

He went on to say that the burden of proof is on Huawei to prove that its networking equipment does not contain any insidious hardware implants or backdoors that would feed information back to the Chinese state.

“Based upon the House Intelligence Committee’s open hearings in America last year, Huawei was well short of providing any comforting testimony that would make me begin to question the intuitive premise that Huawei presents serious national security risks on a first-principles basis,” he said.

Hayden is a director of Motorola Solutions, which provides voice and data communications products and systems to the US government. Huawei and Motorola have previously been engaged in intellectual property disputes for a number of years.

Huawei's global cybersecurity officer, John Suffolk, described the comments made by Hayden as “tired, unsubstantiated, defamatory remarks” and said they distract from real-world concerns related to espionage, which demand serious discussion globally.

The news comes in the wake of the UK government’s announcement that it will conduct a review of Huawei’s Cyber Security Evaluation Centre in Oxfordshire, in accordance with the recommendations of a report by the Intelligence and Security Committee (ISC).

The ISC’s report noted that Huawei’s links to the Chinese state are perceived and did not offer evidence to substantiate these allegations. It also noted Huawei’s denial of links with the Chinese state, and the fact that it is owned by its employees.

However, it did criticise the government’s processes of considering national security issues at the time that BT and Huawei started working together nearly ten years ago, describing them as “insufficiently robust”.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
Lovegasoline, constitutional rights apply to govt conduct not private, so whether or not collecting info on you is legal, there would not be a constitutional violation. I dont know the laws on this but all sorts of people collect information about the public, from public domain sources. As for facebook I think you agreed to let them do it when you clicked "OK" at some point or another.

I just got back from listening to oral arguments in Awlaki v Panetta case, the one about 3 US citizens assassinated by a drone in Yemen, on orders of the President. The case won't be dismissed and will make a very important statement, but I doubt there will be any remedy (penalty), so the court really has no teeth.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 19, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
It's understood that is precisely what Facebook, Google, et al do. Since there's no expectation of privacy, can a corporate entity or private individual also legally access all of this data?

Ever read the Terms of Service Agreement before you check the box?
I'm sure it says somehing about what may be done with your data in there.

Apparently, companies including Facebook, Google, AOL, and Yahoo were being "forced" to give up this data. No doubt with the "national security" excuse attached to it. At least that is what these companies are claiming, now.

And, it doesn't stop there. Remember the IRS scandal:

Meanwhile, 19 organisations represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a suit against the NSA for violating their right of association by illegally collecting their call records.

The coalition includes Unitarian church group, gun ownership advocates, and a broad coalition of membership and political advocacy groups.

Interesting coalition, eh? Could it be that the far right and the left might find some common ground on this one????
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Interesting coalition, eh? Could it be that the far right and the left might find some common ground on this one????

i would like to think that was possible....but doubtful.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
What about say Verizon selling your phone and email metadata to private entities?

I am pretty sure they cannot

however they can give it to our government if ordered to do so
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 19, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Meanwhile, 19 organisations represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a suit against the NSA for violating their right of association by illegally collecting their call records.


that, on the face of it, is absurd.

What instances of association were stopped by the supposed intrusion?
None.

They didn't even know any collection was going on, and they associated, anyway.

A convenient way of wasting taxpayer dollars.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 19, 2013 - 11:22pm PT
A thoughtful post by Bruce Schneier: Counterterrorism Mission Creep

One of the assurances I keep hearing about the U.S. government's spying on American citizens is that it's only used in cases of terrorism. Terrorism is, of course, an extraordinary crime, and its horrific nature is supposed to justify permitting all sorts of excesses to prevent it. But there's a problem with this line of reasoning: mission creep. The definitions of "terrorism" and "weapon of mass destruction" are broadening, and these extraordinary powers are being used, and will continue to be used, for crimes other than terrorism.
[...]

The most egregious example of this are the three anti-nuclear pacifists, including an 82-year-old nun, who cut through a chain-link fence at the Oak Ridge nuclear-weapons-production facility in 2012. While they were originally arrested on a misdemeanor trespassing charge, the government kept increasing their charges as the facility's security lapses became more embarrassing. Now the protestors have been convicted of violent crimes of terrorism -- and remain in jail.
[...]


http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/07/counterterroris_1.html
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Fringe kook bloogers

See, this is where you lose me jghedge. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is a fringe kook according to you. Do you have any idea who Schneier is? Hardly on the fringe or a kook. He literally wrote _the_ book on cryptography. This is an important topic that reasonable people can disagree on, yet time after time you stoop to ad hominem attacks on those who don't share your views.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:13am PT
Perhaps you missed this?

But on December 4, 2012, the U.S. filed a new indictment of the protestors. Count one was the promised new charge of sabotage. Defendants were charged with intending to injure, interfere with, or obstruct the national defense of the United States and willful damage of national security premises in violation of 18 US Code 2155, punishable with up to 20 years in prison. Counts two and three were the previous felony property damage charges, with potential prison terms of up to fifteen more years in prison.

18 USC 2155 is part of the "Patriot Act"

http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/2155.html

Hyperbole? Not so much I think.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:27am PT
Not sure if this has been posted yet ... if it has sorry for the redundancy.

Watch the message video with Oliver Stone ...

Tell Congress To Act Now To End The Surveillance State
https://www.aclu.org/secure/stopnsa?sid=share?emissue=national_security&emtype=share&ms=eml_acluaction_govtspying_130713&etname=130712+Oli+Stone+NSA+video+share&etjid=933653


Oliver Stone on NSA Spying
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U37hl0n9mY#at=15




"The question is not 'do you have something to hide?' The question is whether we control government or the government controls us." - Oliver Stone

History tells us that change will happen—that we can reclaim control of our government and our privacy—if ordinary citizens act on the stunning information that Edward Snowden has exposed.

And since Snowden exposed the NSA’s massive internet and telephone spying programs, tens of thousands of ACLU supporters have indeed taken a stand—calling on President Obama to end them. But he has refused to respond, offering up bland defenses of the program and stepping up the international witch-hunt for Snowden instead.

So now we need to turn to Congress, which blindly gave the NSA too much spying power in the first place.

In a sign of building momentum, new legislation is popping up every week to curtail or undo the secret surveillance state, but we’ll only get a good law if we send our representatives a crystal clear message: Americans stand opposed to this blatant abuse of power.

Tell Congress to get in gear to end the secret surveillance state—sign the petition demanding they repeal section 215 of the Patriot Act and section 702 of FISA immediately.



Imagine what our government or anyone with this kind of capability can do. We have a right to keep secrets. It's also about safe guarding our intellectual property. Imagine if you 're an inventor, then they know the secrets of your invention long before you ever go public. Imagine if you are a natural scientist and you have made a great natural discovery, then they can know your discovery and its location and steal it. Imagine if you are a lab research scientist, then they know your discovery of pure science too. Imagine if you're a writer, then they know your great American novel before you ever publish. Imagine if you're a software engineer, then they know your program. Imagine you have phone sex with your beloved spouse whom you haven't seen in person for a long time due to work commitments, then they listen in.

It's not right. It's immoral, unethical, illegal, and against our Constitution and our Bill of Rights.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 20, 2013 - 01:30am PT
If being charged with a section of the Patriot Act doesn't label you as a terrorist, not sure what would.

While they were originally arrested on a misdemeanor trespassing charge, the government kept increasing their charges as the facility's security lapses became more embarrassing.

I don't read that as suggesting as causality or motivation for the charges. Merely that they were contemporaneous occurrences (although it certainly wouldn't be the first time that government agencies have responded to embarrassment in that manner.)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jul 22, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
http://rt.com/op-edge/manning-trial-precedent-execution-whistleblowers-347/

Manning trial sets execution precedent for future whistleblowers
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 23, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
You are keeping it alive Hedge, you're still keeping it alive... the Hedge tool needs to keep it alive...

I wonder:

If I buy an American computer or a camera - Is there now surveillance-enhancing remedies installed in the hardware and software? Are the devices prepared for surveillance? If so: Is it acceptable that companies like Microsoft and Apple are selling spying-on-their-customer-devices to their customers without the customers own knowledge?

If so - I want the not surveillance-enhanced computers to be properly marked to know what I buy. I had planned to buy Microsoft Surface Pro - the plans are now frozen until I know more...

Who are taking care of our interests as customers when Corporations like Apple and Microsoft are selling us out?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 23, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Its a good business opportunity for somebody, Marlow. Even if Americans go along with this, why should people in other countries? All communications from South America, internet and phone, go through the US, including from Venezuela, Ecuador, Argentina, etc. How would you like to have your emails read and stored by a foreign govt? Latin Americans may have little choice now, but the Germans are reacting.

My website got taken down by a virus a couple months back, and I had to delete it, about 5000 files. I'm going to rebuild it with a company called xmission.com, just because they claim to not cooperate with FBI administrative subbpeonas etc. Not sure how long they can survive taking on the man, but they'll get my business just for trying.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jul 23, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
“Freedom of expression” yes we still have it in just a different form.

Secrets, lies and fabrications now coming to light or will they.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/the-nsa-files

Section to the right “on World News”

“House forces vote on amendment that would limit NSA bulk surveillance”

Its outcome is difficult to predict. The vote by itself will not restrict the surveillance, it would simply include Amash's amendment in the annual Defense appropriations bill, which the House is considering this week; the Senate must also approve the bill before it goes to President Obama's desk. There is deep, bipartisan support for the domestic phone-records collection in the House intelligence committee and deep, bipartisan opposition for it in the House judiciary committee.

Yet Wyden, one of the leading Senate critics of the NSA's bulk domestic surveillance, called it "unquestionably good" that Congress was openly debating the extent of the collection of Americans' phone records.

"It is another step, as I've outlined, in the march to a real debate,"

Wyden said during a speech at the Center for American Progress, a thinktank aligned with the Obama administration. "We wouldn't have had that seven, eight weeks ago."

Wyden described the bulk surveillance of Americans' phone records as a "human relationship database," and described a "culture of misinformation" around it from government officials as a threat to American democracy, warning that "unless we seize this unique moment" to weaken both, "we will all live to regret it."

"The combination of increasingly advanced technology with a breakdown in the checks and balances that limit government action could lead us to a surveillance state that cannot be reversed," Wyden said.

Wyden, in a wide-ranging speech, reiterated a warning that the authorities government officials believe themselves to have under Section 215 of the Patriot Act might also allow the NSA or FBI to retain bulk medical records, gun purchase records, financial transactions, credit card data and more. "Intelligence officials have told the press that they currently have the legal authority to collect Americans' location information in bulk," he noted

Wyden assailed administration and intelligence officials for describing their surveillance as limited in public remarks while secretly briefing legislators about their broad scope.

"The public was not just kept in the dark about the Patriot Act and other secret authorities," Wyden said. "The public was actively misled."

As for all those people who bought guns, guns and more guns and as for thousand boxes of ammo good luck.

Sure happy I used cash for my transactions; when they persisted for asking for names for certain transactions I did not hesitate; the day before just took a name in the phone book and memorized the phone number. They would ask “what is your telephone #” you gave the memorized one from the phone book and they would ask are you Mr. Smith, Yes that's me and then they would say Thank you Mr. Smith, have a nice day.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jul 26, 2013 - 09:21am PT
From Foreign Policy regarding the NSA being curbed NOT, Titled: "How Nancy Pelosi Saved the NSA Surveillance Program
Posted By John Hudson Thursday, July 25, 2013 - 6:39 PM"



"..Pelosi had a big effect on more middle-of-the road hawkish Democrats who didn't want to be identified with a bunch of lefties [voting for the amendment]," said the aide. "As for the Alexander briefings: Did they hurt? No, but that was not the central force, at least among House Democrats. Nancy Pelosi's political power far outshines that of Keith Alexander's......"


Welcome to surveillance city, now you Californians know whom to thank.


From:
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/07/25/how_nancy_pelosi_saved_the_nsa_surveillance_program
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2013 - 11:39am PT
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57595529-38/feds-tell-web-firms-to-turn-over-user-account-passwords/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
I would have preferred to see the Amash amendment passed, but what hasn't been covered at all is that this amendment DID pass by a 409-12 vote.

None of funds made available by this Act may be used by the National Security Agency to–

(1) conduct an acquisition pursuant to section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 for the purpose of targeting a United States person; or

(2) acquire, monitor, or store the contents (as such term is defined in section 2510(8) of title 18, United States Code) of any electronic communication of a United States person from a provider of electronic communication services to the public pursuant to section 501 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57595529-38/feds-tell-web-firms-to-turn-over-user-account-passwords/

Hahahaha, the usual TGT uninformed gibberish. The very first reader comment:

"Next time you write an article about something like this, contact a CS... approve that. Do your research next time. "

The article seems conflicted with itself because it describes the feds asking for passwords, algorithms, and encryption keys. It then talks about hash values and how the original password is not available.

With a hash value, it is possible to get a list of almost all passwords that could generate the hash value. Then a brute force attack (trying every possible password) can be done using just the set of passwords that generate the given hash value. It makes a brute force type of attack very easy. If the feds have an encrypted hard drive or email, as well as the hash value and algorithm that generated it, they can get to the data in a very short time. Online accounts are different because there is a lot of time spend in transferring the data over the internet. Servers often add a big delay for any user who tried to log in with a bad password more than a few times. But the feds can go to the servers directly to get your data.

Regardless, it is disturbing that the government is asking for this type of thing without warrants. Isn't that the issue that we are discussing; the problem of the feds getting information about people who are not the target of any investigation and/or without a warrant?

Dave

P.S. Don't bother with capital letters and punctuation. Create passwords that are extremely long instead. Using "horsecowchickensheepmonkeypassword" for a password is probably way better than using "%gGth!!0a" for a password. Sometimes size does matter.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jul 26, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
How's airport life going for old Paul Revere anyway?
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jul 26, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
good short video on smoke screen

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Now they want to keep the policy process secret!

http://money.cnn.com/2013/07/25/pf/taxes/tax-reform/index.html?iid=Lead

I guess that's so they can be

"for it before they were against it"
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 26, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
acquire, monitor, or store the contents (as such term is defined in section 2510(8) of title 18, United States Code) of any electronic communication of a United States person

TGT, there must be some trick to this. It's hard to believe its true and not a single news reporter is interested. As I understand it, the way NSA works is to collect everything they can, 100%. The restrictions come into play when they try to access the information. I'm not sure its technically possible to sort out the info while they collect it. Although, maybe it's just not been a priority to devise a system that does that.

By the way, I've been a human rights/civil rights activist for a long time, pretty well networked with others, and am amazed at what I find on a rock climbing bulletin board that no one else seeems to know about. I've taken quite a few things from this thread and distributed them by facebook. I actually come to the supertopo website to read rock climbing stories.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 26, 2013 - 02:38pm PT

This article claims it is a trick. It's way over my head, don't ask me. It's called the Nugent Amendment. It's not actually named after Ted.
abrams

Sport climber
Jul 26, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
Someone had a good (or maybe bad) suggestion to counter them.

Bury the aholes in data with scripts running on your computer and smart phone that make constant random web searches and phone calls 24/7/365.

Let them sort that and try to profile real activity.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Here's why.

Some theorists such as John Robb and Daniel Suarez speculate that in the near future every person in the world will be assigned a number. It will be like a credit score that the US government keeps track of, but in this case it will be a terror score. Hopefully you will at least start with a zero score in this new paradigm…

As a person’s electronic signature begins to cross certain trip wires, their terror score will increase. Hanging out on Jihad websites: 5 points. E-mailing a radical sheik in Yemen: 10 points. Buying large quantities of chemical fertilizer at home depot: 15 points. Once your terror score reaches a certain threshold, you will then be targeted for assassination. This process will be completely automated.

It gets better though because what we see today in Pakistan with the CIA’s drone program is just the tip of the iceberg. In the future, the NSA will be even more intrusive and pervasive in its surveillance. Unblinking Intelligence, Surveillance, Recon (ISR) platforms such as blimps will hover above target areas for long stretches of time. Eventually, some long duration platform may be running ISR over nearly the entire world. As individuals meet the threshold, a bomb gets dropped on them. One day the actually killing will shift from primitive Predator type drones to a orbital weapons platform, probably a satellite network equipped with high powered lasers.

This is how you control a world wide insurgency, and this is how the elites of the world maintain the privileges and positions to which they are accustomed.


http://sofrep.com/23723/the-future-of-counter-terrorism-threshold-strikes/

Then the score could also be extended to political obeisance.

The perfection of of ward machine politics.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 26, 2013 - 09:44pm PT
If only there was some way we could shape the laws to allow executing conservatives...
\

"Progressive"= closeted fascist
WBraun

climber
Jul 27, 2013 - 12:59am PT
None are so hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free.

The truth has been kept from the depth of their minds by masters who rule them with lies.

They feed them on falsehoods till wrong looks like right in their eyes.

-Johann von Goethe
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jul 27, 2013 - 11:10am PT
"Progressive"= closeted fascist

Ah, the old "if you don't tolerate fascists, you must be a fascist" nonsense.

Curt
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 27, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
http://www.ibtimes.com/your-cable-box-spying-you-behavior-detecting-devices-verizon-microsoft-others-worry-privacy-1361587
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jul 27, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
NSA did record all of Anthony Weiner's phone sex calls?
Last week the White House requested and was given access to the full audio recording files sighting expanded Patriot Act powers?

There may be up to 100 sexting calls in this particular file dated between 2010 and 2013 but is unconfirmed?
[9]
Aids would not comment when asked if Obama listened to some of the recordings for national security reasons? The ex New York congressmans premature orgasms should not pose a security threat but parallel [12] investigations are ongoing by many concerned parties at the spy agency and the WH ?



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jul 28, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/07/glenn-greenwald-low-level-nsa-analysts-have-powerful-and-invasive-search-tool/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 29, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
MapLight, the Berkeley-based campaign finance website, has aggregated the numbers and found that lawmakers “voting to continue the NSA’s dragnet surveillance programs received on average 122 percent more money ($41,635) from defense contractors and other defense industry interests than did representatives who voted to end the programs (18,765).
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
Verdict is out: Not guilty of aiding enemy.
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
Like! Freedom rings.

Next question: why haven't GLBT groups supported him? Could it be they are 'in bed' with the military?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Manning guilty of 5 espionage counts.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jul 30, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
Manning will get locked up in solitary confinement in an SHU for the rest of his life, and will lose his mind like most do after a few years of solitary. I guess its good that he didn't aid the enemy. RT is reporting that the Russian immigration authorities are warning Snowden that he is not safe if he leaves the airport. Not sure what threats they refer to.
I'm supposed to debate some dude about drones in about an hour. Got to study up on it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jul 30, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
Would love to hear your debate, Don.


We all are living in interesting times.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Today we have a "money economy" - with some people being "have's" and some people being "have-not's". A recent report told us that 4 of 5 Americans are now experiencing what it is to be "poor" and a few experiencing what it is to be extremely rich. Fewer and fewer are in the middle. In Scandinavia we're still a lot better off than you are in America, but I'm afraid the players of the "internationalisation money game" will soon get to us. And in Norway we will soon elect a conservative government. Their intentions will be good, but my best guess is that their actions will strengthen the patterns making a few extremely rich and more and more people poor and dependent on the extremely rich.

In the future we will also have a "surveillance information economy" with a few people on the top being "have's" and the masses beneath being "have-not's". All information patterns from the surveillance system will then to the few on top be accessible and valid information used strategically to involve the few they prefer and exclude the many not of interest to their goals - mainly more power and more money. And let's add - more information. It will be the players' world.

We have to be careful or we will soon be there...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:12pm PT
"This is my resignation letter. I’m walking out on in silence. In the future there will be no need for people like me because there won’t be a democracy to save, just private interests, battles for more power, more money. The few files I take with me regard men who must save themselves from the storm, black souls, mercenary captains. Yet, as we’ve already seen in history, they’ll be the rulers of the chaos."

Fascinating? Yes... fascinating as it is when you see the eagle strike the dove or the viper bite your neighbour...
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Obama should pardon Manning.

I mean, we've already given the government a free pass on the constitution.

What's a few espionage statutes?

Fair's fair . . .
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 30, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
The state of exception (Agamben - written some time between 2001 and 2006)):

"In the speech he delivered to Congress when it was finally convened on July 4, the american president openly justified his actions as the holder of a supreme power to violate the constitution in a situation of necessity. "Whether strictly legal or not," he declared, the measures he had adopted had been taken "under what appeared to be a popular demand and a public necessity" in the certainty that Congress would ratify them. They were based on the conviction that even fundamental law could be violated if the very existence of the union and the juridical order were at stake ("Are all the laws but one to go unexecuted, and the Government itself go to pieces lest that one be violated?").

Because the sovereign power of the president is essentially grounded in the emergency linked to a state of war, over the course of the twentieth century the metaphor of war becomes an integral part of the presidential political vocabulary whenever decisions considered to be of vital importance are being imposed. Thus, in 1933, Franklin D. Roosevelt was able to assume extraordinary powers to cope with the Great Depression by presenting his actions as those of a commander during a military campaign.

President Bush's decision to refer to himself constantly as the "Commander in Chief of the Army" after September 11, 2001, must be considered in the context of this presidential claim to sovereign powers in emergency situations. If, as we have seen, the assumption of this title entails a direct reference to the state of exception, then Bush is attempting to produce a situation in which the emergency becomes the rule, and the very distinction between peace and war (and between foreign and civil war) becomes impossible."

And what have you become, my friends, what have you become...
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Jul 30, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
^^^ [never mind, I'm afraid to speak freely] ^^^
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 31, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
More info is revealed. Snowden and Glenn Greenwald are the best thing that has happened to the US for some time now.

XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

XKeyscore presentation from 2008 – read in full
 http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jul/31/nsa-xkeyscore-program-full-presentation


Presenting XKeyscore: What the N.S.A. Is Still Hiding : The New Yorker
 http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/07/presenting-xkeyscore-what-the-nsa-is-still-hiding.html
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 31, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
Senators take intelligence officials to the mat over secret courts, phone metadata:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/senators-take-intelligence-officials-to-the-mat-over-secret-courts-phone-metadata/

Sounding the alarm: Ars speaks with vocal NSA critic Sen. Ron Wyden:


http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/07/two-years-later-senators-criticism-of-nsa-spying-sinks-in/

Yup, only the fringe kook bloggers care about this.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 31, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
But the bulk of the Sheeple still sleep. The ones that wake focus their displeasure on the current puppet in chief. The rest divide their limited attentions to identifying with the Blue or Red team.

While the media/propaganda machine spins Snowden into a "traitor" for daring to do the one thing that might save us all.... to tell the truth.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 1, 2013 - 12:49am PT
OK, Snowden's name appears only at the very end of the artice, but super interesting (and related) nonetheless:

link: Top Ten Ways Bradley Manning Changed the World


From this:

2. Manning revealed the full extent of the corruption of Tunisian dictator Zine El Abidin Ben Ali, adding fuel to the youth protest movement of late 2010, which translated the relevant US cables into Arabic. Manning contributed to the outbreak of powerful youth movements demanding more democratic governance in the Arab world.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 1, 2013 - 01:04am PT
froodish, those are two excellent articles.

The ending of the second one is very succinct:

Ars: Anything else you want to add?

Sen. Wyden: This is a unique time in our constitutional history. There's been a combination of dramatic changes in technology and sweeping decisions from the FISA court. If we don't take the opportunity to revise our surveillance laws now—to show that security and liberty can go hand in hand—all of us are going to regret it.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 1, 2013 - 09:57am PT
Breaking news - Snowden goes free. Got his asylum approved, now he just has to watch out for the jackals.

k-man - that's cool that someone actually wants to watch my tv show, thanks. Here you go:

US Drone Strikes Increase Extremism
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 1, 2013 - 08:43pm PT

XKeyscore, the documents boast, is the NSA's "widest reaching" system developing intelligence from computer networks – what the agency calls Digital Network Intelligence (DNI). One presentation claims the program covers "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet", including the content of emails, websites visited and searches, as well as their metadata.

Analysts can also use XKeyscore and other NSA systems to obtain ongoing "real-time" interception of an individual's internet activity.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:49am PT
haha, a woman was googling "pressure cookers while her husband was googling "backpacks" and they get a visit from 6 armed tactical team joint terrorism/FBI guys. The government is watching everything you do online. Including this.



http://news.yahoo.com/google-pressure-cookers-backpacks-visit-feds-140900667.html


Google Pressure Cookers and Backpacks, Get a Visit from the Feds


Michele Catalano was looking for information online about pressure cookers. Her husband, in the same time frame, was Googling backpacks. Wednesday morning, six men from a joint terrorism task force showed up at their house to see if they were terrorists. Which begs the question: How'd the government know what they were Googling?

RELATED: We'll Never Know What Google's Doing With the NSA

Catalano (who is a professional writer) describes the tension of that visit.

[T]hey were peppering my husband with questions. Where is he from? Where are his parents from? They asked about me, where was I, where do I work, where do my parents live. Do you have any bombs, they asked. Do you own a pressure cooker? My husband said no, but we have a rice cooker. Can you make a bomb with that? My husband said no, my wife uses it to make quinoa. What the hell is quinoa, they asked. ...

Have you ever looked up how to make a pressure cooker bomb? My husband, ever the oppositional kind, asked them if they themselves weren’t curious as to how a pressure cooker bomb works, if they ever looked it up. Two of them admitted they did.

The men identified themselves as members of the "joint terrorism task force." The composition of such task forces depend on the region of the country, but, as we outlined after the Boston bombings, include a variety of federal agencies. Among them: the FBI and Homeland Security.

RELATED: PRISM Companies Start Denying Knowledge of the NSA Data Collection

Ever since details of the NSA's surveillance infrastructure were leaked by Edward Snowden, the agency has been insistent on the boundaries of the information it collects. It is not, by law, allowed to spy on Americans — although there are exceptions of which it takes advantage. Its PRISM program, under which it collects internet content, does not include information from Americans unless those Americans are connected to terror suspects by no more than two other people. It collects metadata on phone calls made by Americans, but reportedly stopped collecting metadata on Americans' internet use in 2011. So how, then, would the government know what Catalano and her husband were searching for?

RELATED: Which Tech Company Does the NSA Use Most?

It's possible that one of the two of them is tangentially linked to a foreign terror suspect, allowing the government to review their internet activity. After all, that "no more than two other people" ends up covering millions of people. Or perhaps the NSA, as part of its routine collection of as much internet traffic as it can, automatically flags things like Google searches for "pressure cooker" and "backpack" and passes on anything it finds to the FBI.

RELATED: Very Similar Statements from Facebook and Google on PRISM Still Have Holes

Or maybe it was something else. On Wednesday, The Guardian reported on XKeyscore, a program eerily similar to Facebook search that could clearly allow an analyst to run a search that picked out people who'd done searches for those items from the same location. How those searches got into the government's database is a question worth asking; how the information got back out seems apparent.

RELATED: Will Google's Request to Publish Secret Court Orders Do Anything?

It is also possible that there were other factors that prompted the government's interest in Catalano and her husband. He travels to Asia, she notes in her article. Who knows. Which is largely Catalano's point.

They mentioned that they do this about 100 times a week. And that 99 of those visits turn out to be nothing. I don’t know what happens on the other 1% of visits and I’m not sure I want to know what my neighbors are up to.

One hundred times a week, groups of six armed men drive to houses in three black SUVs, conducting consented-if-casual searches of the property perhaps in part because of things people looked up online.

But the NSA doesn't collect data on Americans, so this certainly won't happen to you."

The response from the gov. http://news.yahoo.com/no-fbi-isnt-snooping-york-google-users-002041892.html "Oh noes, we don't do that, it was some other reason, just a knock and talk by the local friendly sherrif". Cough* bullshit* cough
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 2, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Really couchmaster? You think it is more likely that it was the NSA and not the employer that instigated this? I have no love for what the NSA is doing as evidenced by my posts in this thread, but come on.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 2, 2013 - 11:24am PT
I don't know and can't say Steve. Looks like the cops are still trying to get the corrected story straight though:

Updated version says:
"The Guardian reported that an FBI spokesperson said that Catalano "was visited by Nassau County police department … working in conjunction with Suffolk County police department." (Catalano apparently lives on Long Island, most likely in Nassau County.)

Detective Garcia of the Nassau County Police, however, told The Atlantic Wire by phone that his department was "not involved in any way." Similarly, FBI spokesperson Peter Donald confirmed with The Atlantic Wire that his agency wasn't involved in the visit. He also stated that he could not answer whether or not the agency provided information that led to the visit, as he didn't know."

jstan

climber
Aug 2, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
The current situation has been and is being very badly played IMO.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 2, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
Joe, I see you're still stuck on the messenger ...
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
Aug 2, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
“Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. ”
― Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

who would have thought instead of being social commentary the graphic novel became a sad predictor of our current state of affairs.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 2, 2013 - 08:59pm PT
The trick is not to become focused and assign blame on the front running puppets. Although the entire current crop of TV puppet 'leaders' in D.C. certainly deserve to be hung, that would solve nothing and perhaps provide a very false sense of justice. And these puppets WILL be sacrificed if the real truth is near the light.

I still think the truth about what might have happened in Benghazi is what the puppets are most terrified of. The effort expended to hype the nonsense with Trayvon kept the sheeple occupied for weeks. Even Snowden, perhaps troublesome to the regime, seems waaaay overhyped for the information he has presented so far.

Smoke, mirrors, debt people, look past them....

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
I also feel unsafe and unclean.
But I'm gonna take a shower and get into my Volvo to go see me mum.
Then I'll be ok.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
y'all realize these tools have probably already been used to blackmail congresspeople, judges, etc to vote/rule the way special interests want them to, right ?
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 3, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
but now I can do it to anyone, anywhere, with the push of a button instead of with boots on the ground...

you are witnessing a thousandfold increase in effective use - seriously. if not more so...all I have to do is push a button, run a sort, grep some keywords...

and does the fact that it's been done before make it ok now ? with these tools ? what does that have to do with anything ?
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 3, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
do you work with computers ? i get the simple feeling you fail to grasp what this new sh#t really does/is/etc...

and BullSh#t - Hoover could do NOTHING like this. I call you out on that.

and if you think the people we voted for are the ones making these decisions, you are a fool.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 3, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
what were you reading last night ?

oh wait - we prolly already know...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 4, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Hey, they all want in on it now!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/04/us/other-agencies-clamor-for-data-nsa-compiles.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&hp
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Aug 4, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
From the American Library Association website

Privacy is essential to the exercise of free speech, free thought, and free association. The courts have established a First Amendment right to receive information in a publicly funded library.1 Further, the courts have upheld the right to privacy based on the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution.2 Many states provide guarantees of privacy in their constitutions and statute law.3 Numerous decisions in case law have defined and extended rights to privacy.4

In a library (physical or virtual), the right to privacy is the right to open inquiry without having the subject of one’s interest examined or scrutinized by others. Confidentiality exists when a library is in possession of personally identifiable information about users and keeps that information private on their behalf.5

Protecting user privacy and confidentiality has long been an integral part of the mission of libraries. The ALA has affirmed a right to privacy since 1939.6 Existing ALA policies affirm that confidentiality is crucial to freedom of inquiry.7 Rights to privacy and confidentiality also are implicit in the Library Bill of Rights’8 guarantee of free access to library resources for all users.

The same protections should be afforded us on our computers in the privacy of our own homes.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Aug 4, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
^^^ that be right ^^^
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Aug 5, 2013 - 06:53am PT
The ISPs , telcos, and social media sites should have the same responsibilities as libraries, and the sames kinds of laws that protect library usage records should be codified to protect the privacy of our internet usage records. The internet is effectively the modern library.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 5, 2013 - 11:00am PT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.

Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges.

The undated documents show that federal agents are trained to "recreate" the investigative trail to effectively cover up where the information originated, a practice that some experts say violates a defendant's Constitutional right to a fair trial. If defendants don't know how an investigation began, they cannot know to ask to review potential sources of exculpatory evidence - information that could reveal entrapment, mistakes or biased witnesses.

http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-u-directs-agents-cover-program-used-investigate-091643729.html

I guess this is just fine with the Obamunists.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 6, 2013 - 02:45am PT
A gripping read:

Welcome to Post-Constitution America
    Peter Van Buren


Government officials concerned over possible wrongdoing in their departments or agencies who “go through proper channels” are fired or prosecuted. Government whistleblowers are commanded to return to face justice, while law-breakers in the service of the government are allowed to flee justice. CIA officers who destroy evidence of torture go free, while a CIA agent who blew the whistle on torture is locked up.

Secret laws and secret courts can create secret law you can’t know about for “crimes” you don’t even know exist. You can nonetheless be arrested for committing them. Thanks to the PATRIOT Act, citizens, even librarians, can be served by the FBI with a National Security Letter (not requiring a court order) demanding records and other information, and gagging them from revealing to anyone that such information has been demanded or such a letter delivered. Citizens may be held without trial, and denied their Constitutional rights as soon as they are designated “terrorists.” Lawyers and habeas corpus are available only when the government allows.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 6, 2013 - 02:59am PT
... why trust the telco's and ISP's, but not the gov't?


I don't trust the telco's and ISPs, but the gov't has militarized police. See the above post (and read the article) and you might begin to get an idea of why trusting the gov't with this type of data might not be in our own best interest.
crøtch

climber
Aug 6, 2013 - 11:51am PT
I'm not sure if this has already been posted. PBS interview with two NSA whistleblowers and an NSA official who have wildly different claims about the amount of information that is being collected on US citizens.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 6, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Members of Congress denied access to basic information about NSA

Documents provided by two House members demonstrate how they are blocked from exercising any oversight over domestic surveillance

"Members of Congress have been repeatedly thwarted when attempting to learn basic information about the National Security Agency (NSA) and the secret FISA court which authorizes its activities, documents provided by two House members demonstrate.

From the beginning of the NSA controversy, the agency's defenders have insisted that Congress is aware of the disclosed programs and exercises robust supervision over them. "These programs are subject to congressional oversight and congressional reauthorization and congressional debate," President Obama said the day after the first story on NSA bulk collection of phone records was published in this space. "And if there are members of Congress who feel differently, then they should speak up."

But members of Congress, including those in Obama's party, have flatly denied knowing about them. On MSNBC on Wednesday night, Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Ct) was asked by host Chris Hayes: "How much are you learning about what the government that you are charged with overseeing and holding accountable is doing from the newspaper and how much of this do you know?" The Senator's reply:

The revelations about the magnitude, the scope and scale of these surveillances, the metadata and the invasive actions surveillance of social media Web sites were indeed revelations to me."


But it is not merely that members of Congress are unaware of the very existence of these programs, let alone their capabilities. Beyond that, members who seek out basic information - including about NSA programs they are required to vote on and FISA court (FISC) rulings on the legality of those programs - find that they are unable to obtain it.

Two House members, GOP Rep. Morgan Griffith of Virginia and Democratic Rep. Alan Grayson of Florida, have provided the Guardian with numerous letters and emails documenting their persistent, and unsuccessful, efforts to learn about NSA programs and relevant FISA court rulings."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/04/congress-nsa-denied-access
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
i'm genuinely curious. those of you who defend nsa mass surveillance as being necessary in a post 9/11 world, does the following cross a line for you or are you down with this too:

"As the NSA scoops up phone records and other forms of electronic evidence while investigating national security and terrorism leads, they turn over "tips" to a division of the Drug Enforcement Agency ("DEA") known as the Special Operations Division ("SOD"). FISA surveillance was originally supposed to be used only in certain specific, authorized national security investigations, but information sharing rules implemented after 9/11 allows the NSA to hand over information to traditional domestic law-enforcement agencies, without any connection to terrorism or national security investigations.

But instead of being truthful with criminal defendants, judges, and even prosecutors about where the information came from, DEA agents are reportedly obscuring the source of these tips. For example, a law enforcement agent could receive a tip from SOD—which SOD, in turn, got from the NSA—to look for a specific car at a certain place. But instead of relying solely on that tip, the agent would be instructed to find his or her own reason to stop and search the car. Agents are directed to keep SOD under wraps and not mention it in "investigative reports, affidavits, discussions with prosecutors and courtroom testimony," according to Reuters."



in sum we now have reuter's reporting that the nsa sometimes sends tips and evidence gleaned from their surveillance programs, about non-terrorism "crimes" to the dea who then continue the chain by sometimes informing the irs.

and then both the dea and the irs hide the fact that the original tip and or evidence came from the nsa.



i'm certain, they keep this hidden because it's completely legal and done with congress' oversight. /s
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Aug 8, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Simple as that. Stop the trade in personal data, cold.

DMT I could not agree more. Private investigators can screw up your life just as much as the govt can. You just hire them to get dirt on your enemies, what a dirtbag job. (no offense intended to dirtbags) I've had people try to hire me just to harrass their enemies, not what I want to do. Now just figure out how to do it, what's the law supposed to say and what are the objections to it going to be? Maybe something like, if you amass info about someone, and its misused, you're strictly liable for whatever bad outcome occurs, maybe even criminally liable.

Note there is another article like the DEA one, IRS is also scooping the NSA info. Basically there is no electronic privacy of any kind.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 9, 2013 - 10:27am PT
Fears over NSA surveillance revelations endanger US cloud computing industry

Companies say they could lose billions as customers become wary about their data being turned over to US authorities


"Daniel Castro, author of the ITIF survey, said that it seemed reasonable to suggest that US cloud businesses could lose between 10% and 20% of the overseas market to rivals.

The effect has already been felt, Castro said. The ITIF survey found that of those outside the US, 10% had cancelled a project with a US-based cloud computing provider, and 56% would be "less likely" to use a US-based cloud computing service.

Of those surveyed inside the US, 36% said that the NSA leaks had "made it more difficult" for them to do business outside the US."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/08/nsa-revelations-fears-cloud-computing
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
interesting week.

so, now we have both lavabit and silent circle shutting down their encrypted email services. in lavabit's case this is presumably because they are unwilling to comply with secret court orders to provide the government access to its users' content. this can only be presumed as there is a gag order and the founder can't discuss the details of what has actually happened.

fortunately, unlike the rest of the spineless behemoths [google, apple, microsoft, yahoo, facebook, etc.] rather than just secretly complying with the "legal" requests he took a stand and closed down his services, leaving an in some ways cryptic, but in other ways entirely clear message on his website.

this cynical use of gov't secrecy prerogatives is in line with the tactic that was used in the aclu's previous 2008 nsa lawsuit. in that case the suit was dismissed because there was no way to prove whether or not the aclu had been targeted by surveillance. post-snowden that argument will have to be replaced with some new down the rabbit hole version of "it's legal, we just can't defend it in a court of law, because then the terrorists will win" type argument.

remember citizens: always trust secret courts, remotely controlled flying robots, and those making secret and unchallengeable judgements regarding future crimes [including permanent banishment to no fly lists and/or solitary confinement on an island off the tip of florida.]

i guess if you're going to embrace the tactics of an orwellian dystopia, no sense half-assing it.

we should see if gorbachev is willing to come out of retirement and bring a little perestroika, and more specifically a little of that good old fashioned glasnost to the member countries of the "five eyes."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
I can guarantee this is going to go badly (on numerous fronts)...

NSA to cut system administrators by 90 percent to limit data access

By Jonathan Allen
Thu Aug 8, 2013 8:58pm EDT

(Reuters) - The National Security Agency, hit by disclosures of classified data by former contractor Edward Snowden, said Thursday it intends to eliminate about 90 percent of its system administrators to reduce the number of people with access to secret information.

Keith Alexander, the director of the NSA, the U.S. spy agency charged with monitoring foreign electronic communications, told a cybersecurity conference in New York City that automating much of the work would improve security.

"What we're in the process of doing - not fast enough - is reducing our system administrators by about 90 percent," he said.

The remarks came as the agency is facing scrutiny after Snowden, who had been one of about 1,000 system administrators who help run the agency's networks, leaked classified details about surveillance programs to the press.

Before the change, "what we've done is we've put people in the loop of transferring data, securing networks and doing things that machines are probably better at doing," Alexander said.

Using technology to automate much of the work now done by employees and contractors would make the NSA's networks "more defensible and more secure," as well as faster, he said at the conference, in which he did not mention Snowden by name.

These efforts pre-date Snowden's leaks, the agency has said, but have since been accelerated.

Alexander's remarks largely echoed similar comments made to Congress and at other public appearances over the past two months since his agency came under fire from civil liberties advocates and lawmakers concerned by Snowden's revelations.

Snowden leaked documents to the Guardian and the Washington Post, which published stories revealing previously secret telephone and internet surveillance programs run by the U.S. government.

Snowden now faces criminal charges but has since been granted temporary asylum in Russia.

Other security measures that Alexander has previously discussed include requiring at least two people to be present before certain data can be accessed on the agency's computer systems.

"At the end of the day it's about people and trust," Alexander said. He again defended his agency's conduct, much of which he said had been "grossly mischaracterized" by the press.

"No one has willfully or knowingly disobeyed the law or tried to invade your civil liberties or privacies," he said. "There were no mistakes like that at all."

He told his audience to "get the facts" and make up their own minds, adding that the agency itself could do more to enable this: "We've got to push out more, I recognize that," he said.
WBraun

climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
"No one has willfully or knowingly disobeyed the law or tried to invade your civil liberties or privacies,"

What a fuking liar.

Unbelievable if anyone believes this bullsh!t.

There's been too many in the past and present administrations that used this information illegally.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 9, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
“There's been too many in the past and present administrations that used this information illegally.”

What you cannot be serious, are you saying our government would have done this in the past with Nixon, FBI, Gov/Pres. Reagan, Meese, Bush I and II and others. Yes, our present President is at fault as well.

Wait till the same old Republican Guard gets back in; if they do make sure you are carrying a bible with you or sing “Hail Mary full of Grace, thank you for finding that parking place”.

And if you are still Spooked: Get the Personal Ironkey Flash Drive from Imation; depending on 8, 16, 32 is just the cost.

$100-$400. Make sure it is the Personal FD since the second choice needs a license as the contractors that work with the NSA have to do. Basic is for Military and Gov.

The S series S250 is faster, D slower; they can't find you as for browsing or IP address what/ where? What cookies on your laptop or PC.

“Windows to go” if you have for even better security, can transfer data to your smart phonie. No Googling found on your pc.

http://www.ironkey.com

I know what you are going to think: US government looking in. No. Further reading IronClad

Hang on: there is a knock on the door.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 9, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
I can guarantee this is going to go badly (on numerous fronts)...

I agree, Joe.

John
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 9, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
It would almost seem as if the intent is to hang the current puppet-in-chief and his regime. Perhaps the powers that be have decided a little puppet-swap would ease the minds of some sheeple...

Hopefully we won't fall for it.

Interesting times.
WBraun

climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
There was a coup that was only days away by Pentagon, DHS, AIPAC, drug cartels and key leaders of extremist GOP and Tea Party factions against the Obama administration.

The traitor John McCain got sent offshore on purpose to keep him away since that fukhead is involved also.

Gawd damn do you people even have clue what's going on?

I doubt it .....
jstan

climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
Hard to explain what Obama is doing unless you assume the government absolutely must know how seriously the NSA has been compromised. If Snowden comes back he has to assume he will be water boarded very intensely. Absent the possibility of serious compromise Obama would be going to Russia and joking about it with Putin. We do after all have many important things to discuss with the Russians. The changes to the NSA show pretty clearly what was being done cannot continue. So arguing about whether Snowden was a patriot is foolish words.

Hard to avoid concluding the legendary secrecy of the NSA has been allowed to deteriorate and its systems are broken.

At this point the only path seems one of assuming serious compromise, to make all necessary and immediate changes, and to go trade jokes with Putin. Both parties know a nuclear exchange between us is in no one's interest. Indeed anything Putin may have learned may allow him to make compromises that would have otherwise been impossible. Oddly, this affair could have positive effects.

We need to get on with the business of recovering.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Aug 9, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
There was a coup that was only days away by Pentagon, DHS, AIPAC, drug cartels and key leaders of extremist GOP and Tea Party factions against the Obama administration.

The traitor John McCain got sent offshore on purpose to keep him away since that fukhead is involved also.

Gawd damn do you people even have clue what's going on?

I doubt it .....

Hysterical. I mean, you can't even make sh#t like this up. Oh wait--you did.

Curt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Aug 9, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
Hard to explain what Obama is doing unless you assume the government absolutely must know how seriously the NSA has been compromised. If Snowden comes back he has to assume he will be water boarded very intensely. Absent the possibility of serious compromise Obama would be going to Russia and joking about it with Putin. We do after all have many important things to discuss with the Russians...

I try to look at this from the "other guy's shoes" perspective. Do you think there is any way the USA would send a defecting Russian intelligence agent back to Russia? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Curt
jstan

climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
There is no way Putin can send him back. And there is no way Snowden can go back. If it comes down to a bullet, then it comes down to a bullet. It is what the US is doing that gives rise to worry.

We need not to ignore the fact that globalization has made partners of all the participants. As long as we can keep crazies out of the white house. And that is not a given.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 10, 2013 - 01:07am PT
We need not to ignore the fact that globalization has made partners of all the participants. As long as we can keep crazies out of the white house. And that is not a given.

Indeed.... That was made crystal clear when the Bolivian president's jet was denied flyover by multiple European countries before being downed and strip searched. That's an act of war. To search for one man.

The tentacles of the evil USSA squid reach just about everywhere. I still don't understand the laser focus on Snowden. I believe it's possibly overblown on purpose to detract from the real issue, which might be what happened in Benghazi.

Overblown on purpose or not, whatever documents Snowden has have scared a lot of demons in the pit. They even dredged up the Sith Lord Cheney a few weeks ago to come out into public. That's a loooong trip from the seventh circle of Hell. Bush isn't scared 'cause well.... he really IS as dumb as a stump. A perfect puppet.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 10, 2013 - 08:32am PT
jstan said:
"As long as we can keep crazies out of the white house. And that is not a given."


If they can get people disarmed this achievement, which is very probable (ie, see Richard Nixon), will be much easier to maintain once it occurs. All you'd need is a series of government "emergency measures" based on hyped up media reports of some real or imagined threat to get a President for life.

ps, good explanation from the President on the subject. Bottom line, "Trust me". How can anyone not love this guy? http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/barack-obama-press-conference-analysis-95414.html?ml=po_r

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Aug 10, 2013 - 11:24am PT
From Joe:

So you could do anything you like in a library, including plotting terrorism and communicating with fellow terrorists, and any attempt to surveil that is 4th amendment infringement.

You seem to be of the opinion that because terrorists might plot and communicate in a library that all library use privacy protections should be abolished, that all library users should be monitored in every way.

I hold the opposite position. Library use privacy protections should be extended to the internet, at the very least. Otherwise we will continue to live in a true surveillance state. If we continue on our current path, all levels of government and all government agencies may well have access to any and all of our electronic communications.

So we'll have drones watching us from above, micro drones watching and listening to us up close, we'll be watched through the webcams on our computers, and of course all of our internet use and electronic communications will be monitored and stored in perpetuity for future reference. Our whereabouts is already being tracked some of the time through license plate recognition software in police cars. Soon, if not already, where we are and who we associate with will be tracked with facial recognition software. Hell, if the government one day develops the technology to read our minds, to listen to our thoughts, no doubt they will justify that somehow too.

And some people think all this is fine and dandy. My opinion is that such people are fools to so easily give up their rights, rights others have fought, bled, and died for.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 10, 2013 - 11:36am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 11, 2013 - 02:58am PT
Thursday, Aug 8, 2013 12:03 PM PST
Glenn Greenwald offered Brazilian protection from U.S.

Greenwald tells Salon he intends to visit the U.S. soon -- but says the risk of prosecution against him is real
By Brian Beutler

A Brazilian official has taken the unusual step of publicly announcing that the Brazilian government will offer Guardian writer Glenn Greenwald protection from the U.S. government after determining he risks facing legal action if he returns to the U.S.

To receive protection from Brazil, Greenwald would have to officially request it. But though he takes the risk of prosecution seriously, Greenwald tells me he has no intention of taking the Brazilian government up on the offer — and that he plans to return to the U.S. sooner than later, come what may.

“I haven’t requested any protection from the Brazilian government or any other government because, rather obviously, I’ve committed no crime — unless investigative journalism is now a felony in the U.S.,” Greenwald said via email. “But the fact that Brazilian authorities believe there is a real possibility that the U.S. would unjustly prosecute journalists for the ‘crime’ of reporting what the U.S. government is doing is a powerful indictment of the U.S.’s current image in the world — just as was the requirement that the U.S. promise it will not torture or kill Snowden if he’s returned. It’s an equally potent reflection of the massive gap in opinion between the U.S. Government and the rest of the world when it comes to how the NSA disclosures, my reporting, and Snowden are perceived.”

The offer, published in the Sao Paulo newspaper Estadao, doesn’t indicate in any way that the U.S. government is pursuing or will pursue legal action. It also doesn’t mean that the Brazilian officials genuinely believe Greenwald would be arrested or tried for violating U.S. laws if and when he returns stateside. But it at least suggests that people in Brazil and other countries believe it’s a plausible enough scenario that government officials can credibly validate it.

A Department of Justice official did not respond to requests for comment on the Estadao article.

Greenwald — who once wrote for Salon — has published several articles based on classified surveillance documents he received from National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden. Prominent elected officials in the United States have accused Greenwald of being complicit in the crimes they accuse Snowden of committing, which feeds suspicions, both domestically and abroad, that Greenwald might face legal action if he returns to the U.S. That’s part of the reason why Greenwald himself — a former appellate lawyer — isn’t shrugging off the possibility.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/08/glenn_greenwald_offered_brazilian_protection_from_u_s_will_not_accept/
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 11, 2013 - 03:07am PT
US lawmaker compares Edward Snowden with Mahatma Gandhi
PTI Aug 8, 2013, 03.58PM IST

WASHINGTON: A senior lawmaker from President Barack Obama's Democratic party has compared US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden with Mahatma Gandhi, saying the controversial whistleblower was engaged in a "non-violent" act of "civil disobedience".

John Lewis, one of America's most revered civil rights leaders, says Snowden, who has come in for some harsh criticism from Obama Administration for leaking details of classified surveillance programmes, was continuing the tradition of civil disobedience.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-08-08/us/41201000_1_edward-snowden-civil-disobedience-moscow-airport
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 11, 2013 - 03:55am PT

Opinion
Snowden, Greenwald and Wikileaks are winning

Americans are becoming more concerned that government 'anti-terror' programmes are actually restricting civil liberties.

Last Modified: 07 Aug 2013 11:33

NSA whistle blower Edward Snowden and Sarah Harrison, a legal researcher for WikiLeaks, leave Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport after Snowden spent nearly six weeks in hiding there [Reuters]

"It is a slap in the face of all Americans," said Senator John McCain (R - AZ), referring to Russia's decision to grant asylum to Edward Snowden. He demanded that the Russians face " serious repercussions " for their decision.

Well, turn the other cheek, I say. McCain ran for president in 2008 promising to be more belligerent towards the Russians, so this is normal for Dr.Strangelove and his crusty Cold War foaming at the mouth.

Not to be outdone, Democratic Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) said that Russia had "stabbed us in the back," and that "each day that Mr. Snowden is allowed to roam free is another twist of the knife".

The spectacle of US attorney general Eric Holder trying to offer Russia assurances that his government would not torture or execute Snowden speaks volumes about how far the US government's reputation on human rights - even within the United States - has plummeted over the past decade.

Twist and shout! The Russians did a big favour for the freedom-loving peoples of the world, including those in the US who can still think with our own brains. The self-righteous pundits who complain about Russia's own human rights record, as if this were even remotely relevant, might try to recall how Snowden ended up there in the first place. He was passing through Moscow on his way to South America, and it was only by virtue of Washington's "gross violations of his human rights," as Amnesty International called it, that he got stuck there.

Indeed, the whole chase scene is symbolic of the difficulties in which Washington finds itself immersed. Unable to win their case in the court of public opinion, the self-styled leaders of the free world resort to threats and bullying to get their way - which kind of sums up American foreign policy in the second decade of the 21st century. And the spectacle of US attorney general Eric Holder trying to offer Russia assurances that his government would not torture or execute Snowden speaks volumes about how far the US government's reputation on human rights - even within the United States - has plummeted over the past decade.

Meanwhile, Snowden and Glenn Greenwald and Wikileaks are winning. At the outset Snowden said his biggest fear was that people would see "the lengths that the government is going to grant themselves powers unilaterally to create greater control over American society and global society and that 'nothing will change'". But his disclosures have already created a new debate, and political change will follow.

Two weeks ago there was a surprisingly close call in the US House of Representatives, with the majority of House Democrats and 94 of 234 Republicans defying their House (and Senate) leadership, the White House, and the national security establishment in a vote to end the NSA's mass collection of phone records. The amendment was narrowly defeated by a vote of 205 to 217, but it was clear that "this is only the beginning," as John Conyers (D-MI), ranking Democrat on the Judiciary Committee announced.

A week later Patrick Leahy (D-VT), Democratic Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, called a hearing where he challenged the Obama administration's claims that the NSA dragnet had been effective in disrupting terrorist plots. According to Leahy, the classified list that he had been shown of "terrorist events" did not show that "dozens or even several terrorist plots" had been thwarted by the NSA's surveillance of domestic phone calls.

It is beginning to sink in that the main target of the NSA's massive spying programmes is not terrorism but the American people themselves (as well as other non-terrorist populations throughout the world). Pew Research finds for the first time since 2004 that there are more Americans concerned that government "anti-terror" programmes have "gone too far in restricting civil liberties" than those who think not enough has been done to protect people from terrorism.

Then Glenn Greenwald broke the story of the NSA's XKeyscore programme, the "widest reaching" of its secret surveillance systems, based on Snowden's revelations. Greenwald has become a one-man army, swatting down attackers from the national security/journalistic establishment like a hero from a video game. Here you can see him wipe the floor with CNN's Jeffrey Toobin, or David Gregory of Meet the Press; or the most devastating takedown ever of a Washington Post journalist, Walter Pincus, who had to run a massive correction after promoting a false, far-fetched conspiracy theory about Greenwald and Wikileaks.

Greenwald was joined on CNN by James Risen, a 15-year veteran of the New York Times , who is himself being threatened with jail for refusing to testify in a criminal trial of former CIA employee Jeffrey Sterling. Sterling, like Snowden, has been charged under the infamous Espionage Act for leaking classified information to Risen. It is another case with ominous implications for civil liberties and investigative journalism.

"I can tell you, I've been an investigative reporter for a long time," said Risen. "And almost always, the government says that when you write a story, it's going to cause damage. And then they can never back it up. They say that about everything….It's getting old."

Indeed it is. And as Washington threatens to worsen relations with Russia - which together with the United States has most of the nuclear weapons in the world - over Snowden's asylum there, it's hard not to wonder about this fanatical pursuit of someone Obama dismissed as a "29-year-old hacker". Is it because he out-smarted a multi-billion dollar "intelligence community" of people who think they are really very smart but are now looking rather incompetent?

If Snowden really leaked information that harmed US national security, why haven't any of these "really very smart" people been fired? Are we to believe that punishing this whistleblower is important enough to damage relations with other countries and put at risk all kinds of foreign policy goals, but the breach of security isn't enough for anyone important to be fired? Or is this another indication, like the generals telling Obama what his options were in Afghanistan, of the increasing power of the military/national security apparatus over our elected officials?

Mark Weisbrot is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, in Washington, D.C. He is also president of Just Foreign Policy.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/08/swat-team-nation.html
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 11, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
The NSA is turning the internet into a total surveillance system

Now we know all Americans' international email is searched and saved, we can see how far the 'collect it all' mission has gone

"If you emailed a friend, family member or colleague overseas today (or if, from abroad, you emailed someone in the US), chances are that the NSA made a copy of that email and searched it for suspicious information.

The NSA appears to believe this general monitoring of our electronic communications is justified because the entire process takes, in one official's words, "a small number of seconds". Translation: the NSA thinks it can intercept and then read Americans' emails so long as the intrusion is swift, efficient and silent.

That is not how the fourth amendment works.

Whether the NSA inspects and retains these messages for years, or only searches through them once before moving on, the invasion of Americans' privacy is real and immediate. There is no "five-second rule" for fourth amendment violations: the US constitution does not excuse these bulk searches simply because they happen in the blink of an eye."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/11/nsa-internet-surveillance-email
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 11, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Jghedge

You're so lost. First criticising everybody for being focused on Snowden, now the last one desperately trying to get the focus on him. You, the traitor of reason...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 11, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
the traitor of reason...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 12, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 12, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Bruce Schneier, from http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/08/the-nsa-is-commandeering-the-internet/278572/

The link is worth reading, imo.

....Bluntly: The government has commandeered the Internet. Most of the largest Internet companies provide information to the NSA, betraying their users. Some, as we've learned, fight and lose. Others cooperate, either out of patriotism or because they believe it's easier that way....

....You, an executive in one of those companies, can fight. You'll probably lose, but you need to take the stand. And you might win. It's time we called the government's actions what it really is: commandeering. Commandeering is a practice we're used to in wartime, where commercial ships are taken for military use, or production lines are converted to military production. But now it's happening in peacetime. Vast swaths of the Internet are being commandeered to support this surveillance state.....
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:23am PT
^ not funny at all.

either that or being imprisoned by (other) bullies, who commandeer fake democracies.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 13, 2013 - 12:36am PT
there shouldn't be any surprises in all of this if you have been paying attention...

it used to be that 'nations' were 'governed' by the biggest local gangster politicians...

then the governments were taken over by the bigger gangsters, corporations and their interlocking boards of directorates...

in turn, the corporations are run by the next biggest gangsters, the bankers and their national banks (i.e. The Federal Reserve Board)...

and the national banks are directed in turn by the Bank of International Settlements in Basel Switzerland...

the international bankers are run by the next biggest gangsters...

have fun with this...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 13, 2013 - 02:26am PT
Sort of belongs on the Climate Change thread, but sort of belongs here too.

Undercover Agents Infiltrated Tar Sands Resistance Camp to Break up Planned Protest

TransCanada and Department of Homeland Security keep close eye on activists, FOIA documents reveal


Your gov't at work. Say Joe, think they look up the NSA metadata on these terrorists?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:17am PT
Imagine that... a Rand Corp employee(and former gestapo) standing against Snowden. I'm shocked!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 13, 2013 - 10:26am PT
This is priceless.... I still think the powers that be are TRYING to hang Obama and the current criminal regime... Maybe for more circus.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-08-12/head-nsa-review-group-obama-appoints-same-person-who-apologized-lying-congress
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 13, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
http://www.sandiego6.com/story/cia-director-brennan-confirmed-as-reporter-michael-hastings-next-target-20130812


http://www.wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/1210665_obama-leak-investigations-internal-use-only-pls-do-not.html



nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 12:29am PT
never thought i'd hear a law abiding american citizen say:

"I mean, there’s information that I can’t even share with my lawyer, let alone with the American public. So if we’re talking about secrecy, you know, it’s really been taken to the extreme. And I think it’s really being used by the current administration to cover up tactics that they may be ashamed of."

if you've got fifteen minutes watch this interview with ladar levison [founder of lavabit.] if you do watch, you will witness the verbal and mental gymnastics of an american citizen attempting to both stay out of jail and inform the public, as best he can, of some of his experiences.

f*#king surreal.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

what's even more surreal are those of you advocating the paying of your own money to support the infrastructure and human employment that does this to one of your own.

while i hope it's too early, at the rate this is going, ya'll are soon going to have to reconsider the "o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave" lullaby that you often sing to yourselves.

while i'm not sure how you'll work it into the song may i suggest something along the lines of:

"o'er the land of the afraid and the home of the brave ... new ... world"
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2013 - 12:59am PT
DMT: "That's been a fairy tale for decades now."

maybe so, maybe so.

not ready to completely write the american public off just yet...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
The difference is one can take your money,

The other your money and your life!

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:45pm PT
In case anyone was interested in the NSA org and function chart may look like. Anyones guess, but here's some research put into play. Nicely presented. http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2013/08/what-nsas-massive-org-chart-probably-looks/68642/





Lovegasoline, very nicely spoken.
"Anyone who supports safety and security and thus opts for a surveillance state in the name of security, yet desires to disarm the most plentiful defenders of safety, the actual citizenry, is living a completely delusional and logically inconsistent disconnect."


Did you steal that from old Ben? What was that Franklin quote? Along the lines of "People who will trade security for safety will get neither"...or sumptin like that. Regardless, well done.

paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 14, 2013 - 09:52pm PT
nice map, but where's the branch that spies on and blackmails the congresspeople/state gov people to do what the special interests want instead of what the voters wanted ?
WBraun

climber
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
but where's the branch that spies on and blackmails the congresspeople/state gov people to do what the special interests want instead of what the voters wanted ?

This is the real meat of it as paganmonkeyboy hits the crux of it.

Spying on the average citizen is largely a total waste of time and not even important to NSA.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 14, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
well they are also using it in teh war on empty for-profit prisons -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05/the-nsa-is-giving-your-phone-records-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
Sorry about that Indian sub Bharata. Our nuclear subs catch fire ALL THE TIME. If the American people knew how much and how often this happened they'd sh#t. COMMON OCCURRENCE. It's how you respond that keeps you from heading towards Davey Jones's locker. By the way, I found it of interest that the US could hear every submarine in the world at all times and pinpoint it's exact location, as far back as the 1970's. Every one. Google "Glomar Explorer:" for part of that interesting tale where the Soviets didn't have a clue where their sub had sank, but we did, and went to recover it right in plain sight pretending to mine "manganese nodules" haha! No peeking in on us.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 14, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
Back when I was just a pup and an apprentice at US Steel American Bridge. we had a rush contract for this oddball high alloy heavy wall pipe that needed precision tapered buttress threads milled on the ends.

They sent me over to what we called the "light plate shop" that originally was built to construct Nike antiaircraft missile launchers, (and later was where about 2/3rds of all those pipe supports for the Alaska pipeline were built, no two were identical) to repair and wire up an ancient thread mill that they had resurrected from a bone yard somewhere.

One of the supervising engineers was there and I asked him what this was for. He went into an explanation as to how they were going to vacuum up manganese nodules from 20,000 feet of water with an airlift.

My response was that the pipe would last no more than a week if they were sucking sand thru it at the kinds of velocities that an airlift would produce.

He stuck to his story. I'm sure he knew no more than the cover story.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 20, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Lovegasoline said:
"There is no logical consistency to Hedge's posts."
Correct, which is why I totally gave up both reading most of his posts and responding to Hedge. Not worth the trouble to have him start babbling off topic nonsense. I don't think he reads more than the first 10 words of any post before he starts typing an illogical or off topic response which seems to be the first thing which pops into his head.



Interesting rant here in the Atlantic magazine on the subject for anyone interested. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/08/a-law-meant-for-terrorists-is-used-to-detain-a-journalists-partner/278799/

A Law Meant for Terrorists Is Used to Detain a Journalist's Partner
Power given to the government for one purpose inevitably ends up being used for other purposes.
Conor Friedersdorf Aug 19 2013, 7:30 AM ET


On Sunday, Britain used a provision of the British Terrorism Act to detain a man no one thinks is a terrorist: David Miranda, a Brazilian citizen and the partner of American journalist Glenn Greenwald. They held him for 9 hours at Heathrow Airport, denied him access to an attorney, and took all his electronics.

That alone is a scandal.

Authorities in various Western nations have been granted extraordinary powers to fight terrorists. This isn't a story about whether one agrees with Edward Snowden's decision to leak classified National Security Agency documents, or what one thinks of Glenn Greenwald's journalism. It is a story about whether sweeping powers passed with the understanding they'd be used against terrorists will henceforth be marshaled against anyone Western governments want to target, even if there is zero chance that they are associated with Al Qaeda or its affiliates. This is a story about whether national security journalism is already being treated as terrorism so that government officials can bring more powerful tools to bear against leaks of classified information*. And it's a story about the impropriety of targeting the loved ones of journalists in adversarial relationships with the government in order to intimidate them or others.

Said Greenwald:



...they obviously had zero suspicion that David was associated with a terrorist organization or involved in any terrorist plot. Instead, they spent their time interrogating him about the NSA reporting which Laura Poitras, the Guardian and I are doing, as well the content of the electronic products he was carrying. They completely abused their own terrorism law for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism: a potent reminder of how often governments lie when they claim that they need powers to stop "the terrorists", and how dangerous it is to vest unchecked power with political officials in its name.

Worse, they kept David detained right up until the last minute: for the full 9 hours, something they very rarely do. Only at the last minute did they finally release him. We spent all day - as every hour passed - worried that he would be arrested and charged under a terrorism statute. This was obviously designed to send a message of intimidation to those of us working journalistically on reporting on the NSA and its British counterpart, the GCHQ.

As yet, it's unclear whether or not the U.S. government put Britain, whose spy agency has also been exposed and embarrassed by Edward Snowden's leaks, up to this. Congress should investigate whether or not Team Obama played any role. Only last month, the U.S. pressured European countries to ground the plane of Bolivian President Evo Morales in a thuggish reaction to rumors that Snowden was aboard the aircraft, so nothing is assured, save that Miranda has been treated badly and is owed an apology by the captors. "The thought of his being detained by the British police for nine hours because his partner embarrassed the American government really sickens me at a gut level," Andrew Sullivan writes. "I immediately think of my husband, Aaron, being detained in connection to work I have done, something that would horrify and frighten me. We should, of course, feel this empathy with people we have never known, but the realization is all the more gob-smacking when it comes so close to home."

With every day that passes, I grow more amazed at how many apologists the national security state has. It is transnational and increasingly unaccountable, with Western intelligence agencies and officials sharing more interests with one another than with their own legislatures/parliaments and citizens. Recall The Guardian's scoop on GCHQ from earlier this month:

The US government has paid at least £100m to the UK spy agency GCHQ over the last three years to secure access to and influence over Britain's intelligence gathering programmes. The top secret payments are set out in documents which make clear that the Americans expect a return on the investment, and that GCHQ has to work hard to meet their demands.

"GCHQ must pull its weight and be seen to pull its weight," a GCHQ strategy briefing said. The funding underlines the closeness of the relationship between GCHQ and its US equivalent, the National Security Agency. But it will raise fears about the hold Washington has over the UK's biggest and most important intelligence agency, and whether Britain's dependency on the NSA has become too great.

Was this 9-hour stunt GCHQ pulling its weight?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:03am PT
35 years is the sentence.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Manning-sentenced-to-35-years-in-WikiLeaks-case-4748357.php

I'd say he caught one hell of a break.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 11:32am PT
35 years is the sentence.

They should of let him go.

and Made him Hedge's boss.

:-)
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
NSA fishing thru 75% of all US internet traffic.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324108204579022874091732470.html
Filtering is just a euphemism for fishing or snooping.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 21, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
ACLU comments

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech-national-security/beyond-bradley-manning-government-has-made-its-point-updated
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
All I'm really doing is quoting MSM sources and liberal blogs.


Why do you do that all the time?

That's not news.

It's garbage ......
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 22, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
If you want to correspond with him, address his mail to "Chelsea" Manning.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/Manning-wants-to-live-as-a-woman-named-Chelsea-4751666.php

Once again, one of the "commenters" at the bottom of the news page nails it:

"Just as long as Chelsea understands that she'll be doing Bradley's time"

Dude has one messed-up life. Good thing he's now put away, so he can't mess up anyone else's.

His pal "Julie" is next.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 22, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
When you guys start to focus your outrage where it belongs (the telco's and ISP's) you might have some credibility. Being outraged that the gov't might know a fraction about you that AT&T, Verizon, Google, Facebook, your bank, et al already knows is - I'm sorry - comical.

Well said, Hedge. The government doesn't care if you're cheating on yer
girlfriend, really. Maybe you would like to flatter yourself that you're
important enough to merit surveillance but you're not. They have more
important things to do. As much as I like to lambast the guvmint when it
comes to national security, something about which I actually know something
and some people, these are, for the vast majority, very good and intelligent
people doing important work of which few of us should have any knowledge.
You have no idea of the number of attacks that have been thwarted, nor should
you. Democracy doesn't mean every hand-wringing half-wit needs to know about this.
And democracy certainly doesn't mean that some snot-nosed E-3 should think
he should be the arbiter of what should or shouldn't be classified.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
manning may be messed up, really bad. but something is terribly wrong with this country.

one of the first things manning leaked was this:

Manning released this graphic video of a U.S. Apache helicopter attack on a group of people gathered in Baghdad. Two were employees of the Reuters news agency. A member of the helicopter crew refers to the "dead bastards" he killed, and the crew lights up a passing van that stopped to help victims of the first round of gunfire.

Reuters unsuccessfully requested a copy of the video under the Freedom of Information Act, but only Manning revealed it to the world. An Army investigation into the attack, released only after Manning's leak was published, concluded that the helicopter crew had followed the rules of engagement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/bradley-manning-leaks_n_3788126.html

apparently leaking the dirty truth of war is worse than killing some innocents and joking about it.

manning made the mistake of leaking more than that. he should have leaked just that and made a higher road stand. if they still would have convicted him then this is clearly not the america i thought it was.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
2. The Reykjavik-13 cable
Far less known than the Apache video was this classified 2010 cable from the U.S. Embassy in Reykjavik released on Feb. 18, 2010. The first of Manning's leaks to be published, it caused an immediate sensation in Iceland for its frank discussion of U.S. indifference toward problems in the small island nation's banking sector.

The cable's release energized the activists in Iceland who edited "Collateral Murder."

3. The Iraq War Logs
As part of his work as an Army intelligence analyst, Manning had access to a wealth of sensitive Army documents about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Called SIGACTS (significant activities), in military parlance, they detailed nighttime raids and improvised explosives attacks with intimate on-the-ground reports from U.S. troops.

Manning gave WikiLeaks nearly 400,000 SIGACTS from Iraq. They were published in October 2010. The Pentagon had always maintained that it did not keep track of civilian casualties in Iraq, but the independent Iraq Body Count website used the SIGACTS to confirm and update its count of deaths in the conflict.

As of this month, the Iraq Body Count's Josh Dougherty related, the organization had added 4,000 deaths to its database as a result of Manning's leaks and was likely to add another 10,000.

"These and thousands of others like them are known to the world today only because Bradley Manning could no longer in good conscience collude with an official policy of the Bush and Obama administrations to abuse secrecy and 'national security' to erase them from history," Dougherty wrote on the group's website. "If Manning deserves any punishment at all for this, certainly his three years already served, and the disgraceful abuse he was made to suffer during it, is more than enough."

4. The Afghanistan War Logs
On July 25, 2010, just a month after Manning was arrested, WikiLeaks published 75,000 SIGACTS from the Afghanistan battlefield. The New York Times, which participated in their publication, said they offered "an unvarnished, ground-level picture of the war in Afghanistan that is in many respects more grim than the official portrayal."

5. Detention, abuse and torture
Manning's leaks included more than 700 Guantanamo detainee files, many revealing that the U.S. had little reason to continue holding its prisoners. The 250,000 State Department cables he leaked detailed U.S. diplomatic pressure on foreign countries to ignore or excuse extraordinary renditions carried out by the CIA in apparent violation of international law. They also showed that the U.S. routinely failed to investigate reports of prisoner abuse and summary execution by the Iraqi military.

"It brought this issue back into public consciousness again, which is a great thing," Shane Kadidal, a lawyer at the Center for Constitutional Rights who represents Guantanamo detainees, told HuffPost in June.

"And then with everything that Manning released, to some extent the volume of the material is part of the story," Kadidal said. "It's one thing to tell a few anecdotes based on a few items being leaked, but to be able to say across the board that most of the men who are there shouldn't be there, were people that could be safely released … that is pretty staggering."

6. U.S. complicity with repressive Arab regimes
It was no surprise to many living in the Arab world that the United States routinely collaborated with Arab dictators behind closed doors while proclaiming its commitment to democracy in public. Manning's leaks of sensitive State Department cables, however, laid bare the American hypocrisy in the Middle East. By some accounts, they served as a catalyst for the regime changes around the region that would come to be known as the Arab Spring.

In particular, the cables highlighted corruption within the regime of former Tunisian president Zine El Abidine Ben Ali. The first batch of cables about Tunisia was released in November 2010, two months before Ben Ali fled the country.

"Whether it's cash, services, land, property, or yes, even your yacht, President Ben Ali's family is rumored to covet it and reportedly gets what it wants," the U.S. embassy reported in a June 2008 cable classified secret. "With Tunisians facing rising inflation and high unemployment, the conspicuous displays of wealth and persistent rumors of corruption have added fuel to the fire."

you guys figure it out. whats worse? an army private who leaks this stuff? or the country that is complicit with torture at guantanamo? complicit with arab regimes who treat their citizens like dirt?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Poor kid. Tank fodder but he did violate his oath...

i agree with you. i can't imagine how hard it would be though to keep an oath when you knew that innocents were killed and covered up. seems like the oath should take a back seat to the greater truth at times.

we the people are fed propoganda as bad as the old USSR. only most russians were smart enought to know the difference and many americans are not.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
Well said, Hedge. The government doesn't care if you're cheating on yer girlfriend, really.

Nothing like downplaying the truth.

What if the gov't cared that you were part of an organization that protests the illegal activities of a large corporation? And then they harassed you when you organized activities to protest the corporation?

Don't make me look up the cases where this type of gov't intrusion has been documented.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
k-man, I would like you to look that up because I am quite sure you will
not find that the NSA or the CIA has stooped to any of that behavior. The
FBI likely did under Hoover but I doubt much of that has occurred since.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
yeah reilly,

unless your muslim....or protesting the war....or part of an occupy movement....or....

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
hedge, the only proof i have is that you are a deluded idiot. all one has to do is read this thread to reach their own conclusions.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 22, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
Manning released this graphic video of a U.S. Apache helicopter attack on a group of people gathered in Baghdad. Two were employees of the Reuters news agency.

I guess you never watched the whole unedited video.

A group of jihadis was actively engaging a dismounted Army platoon with RPGs and heavy machine guns. The reporters were taking photos almost over their shoulders.

The video was heavily edited for propaganda purposes and that's all most people have seen.


There's a difference between Manning and the NSA leaks. Manning dumped information wholesale that included things like names of translators, informants and allies, methods of detecting and disarming IEDs and had no regard for how many people it would get killed.

Hopefully Bubba will help him with his gender identity issues.


Snowden has so far been fairly circumspect in the information he's released.






Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
I guess you never watched the whole unedited video.

A group of jihadis was actively engaging a dismounted Army platoon with RPGs and heavy machine guns. The reporters were taking photos almost over their shoulders.

The video was heavily edited for propaganda purposes and that's all most people have seen.

i would like to see the unedited version.

is it a problem for DOD to be transparent in the killing of innocents? why didnt they post it up? you know the reason why. because it does nto support the case for war. which is why manning realeased all that stuff.

but really, if an army pvt has access to all that can you please tell me where teh problem really lies? kind of a no brainer.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
you are truly a moron hedge.

compartmentalizing secret and top secret information on a need to know basis is security 101. now we have manning and snowden both having access to information to way more than they should.

as a caring american who supports the NSA i thought you of all people would want them to be a little more prudent in their own security measures.

afterall, we cant have all those embarassing cables about icelend getting out now can we?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
WTF, man? Name calling? Really? That's as far as you can carry your argument?

This is very funny coming from you Joe, as you are the most prolific name caller on this forum.

So with the above observation about name calling, what you are really trying to tell us, it seems, is that deep down inside you know your arguments are intellectually flaccid.

So why do you keep posting the same drivel over and over again if you must defend your arguments with ad hominem attacks?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
i admit i lost my patience with ole joe....

intellectually flaccid

but this got me laughing. joe will be looking for the little blue pill that helps improve common sense.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
And the fact that this is as low as it is on the national radar pretty much proves that most people agree with me. There's no "there" there.

wow...now you are being delusional.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Aug 22, 2013 - 07:46pm PT
Joe, using some of the names you have called others, over and over again, more than 1800 times in recent years, you are obviously, res ipsa loquitur, a pathetically stupid and moronic idiot.

Using your logic, the fact that your idiocy is as low as it is on the national radar pretty much proves that most people agree with me. There's no "there" there in your arguments Joe, by dint of your own use of frequent name calling if by no other measure.

You cooked your own goose with that name calling remark. You effectively invalidated all of your own arguments. Nice work. Thank you.

Too funny.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 22, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
And the fact that this is as low as it is on the national radar pretty much proves that most people agree with me. There's no "there" there.

wow...now you are being delusional.

Comon, you've got to give Hedge some credit for being consistently delusional! And he's entertaining to boot...

Hedge, do you really think, for a second, that REAL terrorists, or any big-time criminals with an IQ over 50 would use the Internet or cell phones in any capacity for hatching nefarious plans?

Do you think the "chatter" nonsense warnings are real?
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2013 - 12:08am PT
I'm not outraged.

They revealed themselves many years ago.

The stupid people here never listen back then and now are shocked.

Amazing how stupid people are and never listen and instead spend all their time watching Jerry Springer.

Bradly Manning will become woman, escape from jail and go on vacation with Hedge .....
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 23, 2013 - 01:28am PT
Hedge, your Telco/isp/bank/dealer aren't storing, or have the capacity to store every single packet of data you ever send. Something you said or did 10 years ago is irrelevant to Verizon trying to sell you a new phone today. Their goal as private corporations is to make money. If they overstep their bounds, then people will spend their money somewhere else.

The NSA is clearly out of control and answers to nobody. Oh, and they steal your money to fund themselves. As I mentioned before, there is zero chance of any sentient criminal using public communications to distribute major "terror plans". Afghan tribal leaders with zero education living in thatched huts in Afghanistan know not to use cell phones. It's all bullsh!t fear mongering used to create a host of tools to control and extort those who do not support the current regime.

It's not as if this is the first time governments have spied on, bribed, tortured and killed their own dissenters. Why is this hard to understand? It was done in the Bronze Age too.

Edward Snowden for President of the United States.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 23, 2013 - 02:56pm PT
Bradly Manning will become woman, escape from jail and go on vacation with Hedge .....

only with hedge, manning may want to be the boy.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 24, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Seems like Hedge was wrong when he tried to state that the MSM had blown over the Snowden story and as most folks were losing interest.

Now we have the NYT taking up the story to support the Guardian. Still Front Page News.

Joe, with all the latest 'revelations' about the depth of the NSA spying, I'm surprised you're still holding on strong to your position that it's all copesetic and perfectly within our constitutional rights.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 25, 2013 - 04:21am PT
"US intelligence analysts have deliberately broken rules designed to prevent them from spying on Americans, according to an admission by the National Security Agency that undermines fresh insistences from Barack Obama on Friday that all breaches were inadvertent.

A report by the NSA's inspector general is understood to have uncovered a number of examples of analysts choosing to ignore so-called "minimisation procedures" aimed at protecting privacy, according to officials speaking to Bloomberg."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/23/nsa-analysts-broke-rules-spy
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 26, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
NSA and GCHQ: the flawed psychology of government mass surveillance

Research shows that indiscriminate monitoring fosters distrust, conformity and mediocrity

"Recent disclosures about the scope of government surveillance are staggering. We now know that the UK's Tempora program records huge volumes of private communications, including – as standard – our emails, social networking activity, internet histories, and telephone calls. Much of this data is then shared with the US National Security Agency, which operates its own (formerly) clandestine surveillance operation. Similar programs are believed to operate in Russia, China, India, and throughout several European countries.

While pundits have argued vigorously about the merits and drawbacks of such programs, the voice of science has remained relatively quiet. This is despite the fact that science, alone, can lay claim to a wealth of empirical evidence on the psychological effects of surveillance. Studying that evidence leads to a clear conclusion and a warning: indiscriminate intelligence-gathering presents a grave risk to our mental health, productivity, social cohesion, and ultimately our future."

http://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2013/aug/26/nsa-gchq-psychology-government-mass-surveillance
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 26, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Use one of these most likely Snowden did the same no trace of IP and where you are.








Nice about this little guy you can change how many times for the password to self-destruct, this way when the cops pull you over and demands the password: you say F$ckyou8, they then say no that is not it, then you say try F$ckyou3, they try that one and again no: then you tell them they have one more chance and let them figure it out and anything on it is bye, bye, so long take it easy the stuff is history.

Red circle brings out different keyboard so anyone or is monitoring you has no clue in sequence as normal keyboard one uses. Plus you can run a truck over it and still can use.

Look our Government is stupid and backwards the Dell PCs that Uncle Sam bought years ago is old and they have no $$$ to buy proper tools to safeguard so they got their own selves to blame.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 26, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
Wasn't mentioned on any of the Sunday morning political talk shows AFAIK, not on the ones I watch anyway. At this point anyway, it's basically a fringe issue that extremists on either end of the spectrum are preoccupied with, and that media outlets give lip service to for journalistic cred, but that's about it.

Hedge, we all have a great, albeit a short opportunity to learn the truth about what's happening today. The truth is there.... sandwiched between the massive steaming bullshit pile of mainstream media and alien-invasions of infowars.com., it's there except you need to accept what you believe to be true right now probably isn't. The same rules of logic apply as they always have. The first step is to turn off the TV.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 27, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 27, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
Lovegasoline,

It is a USB Flashdrive but not you’re run of the mill one. It has its own hard drive embedded into it.

So think as it as a separate PC.

It encrypts your password 2x and then 2x more making it four. So you would have to have a lot of computers to get past the system. Using a sentence for your password like: IlikeSuperTopoandiamonitMonday# will be hard for anyone to get into your system that is on your flashdrive.

It also has a vault that you can add an additional password.

So when you use google which I do not have or wiped out on my laptop and desktop goes to safe site Fire Fox and then you can look for info without that web site knowing your IP address so when they try to add cookies they do not show up or get in that drive. The D goes to E as put in cd or dvd which confuses the host or any PC.

Should be using FireFox for searches anyway and use for default.

Nice since you do not get any ads every 2 seconds or something running left to right on your screen. It will also block any website that is trying to add a virus to your PC or laptop.

I use it since I am overseas and need to give info [presentation]on my product. When you put it your host or their country PC they cannot copy anything or look at any files you have on that flashdrive. Drives them nuts.

You can buy them go to Ironkey.com, Amazon has them; I would stay away from them and get it from the source. They make for three groups: Military/Gov. , Personal [which I have] and Enterprise. Enterprise would mean you would buy 100-200.

Private no tracking on you, Enterprise can track your employees to see where there are and why are they in that country, this way you can control your files and not them and if need be transfer without them getting into the Companies files.

I think a 2 gig is around $100.00, 16 is $375.00. S250 is faster over D250 model

Just look up on site or punch ironkey and will give info.

blurred photo above was wrong my mistake: Use this one if you choose for password or commands and mark read only [giving or showing slides or written material for only their eyes only] plus they can not transfer anything to their PC.


"Protect data wherever it goes with Imation™ Flash Drives powered by IronKey™. Designed to meet the most extreme performance and security requirements of military, government and business, these physically hardened drives are outfitted with strong hardware encryption and use the algorithm approved by the Department of Defense (DOD)."

Providing you trust DOD. Sometimes better to trust your enemies: been there.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 30, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
Another release of information from Edward Snowden, published by the Washington Post.

This time its excerpts from a 178 page summary of the U.S. $52.6 billion “black budget” for fiscal 2013.

"The Post is withholding some information after consultation with U.S. officials who expressed concerns about the risk to intelligence sources and methods."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/black-budget-summary-details-us-spy-networks-successes-failures-and-objectives/2013/08/29/7e57bb78-10ab-11e3-8cdd-bcdc09410972_story.html

....Historical data on U.S. intelligence spending is largely nonexistent. Through extrapolation, experts have estimated that Cold War spending probably peaked in the late 1980s at an amount that would be the equivalent of $71 billion today.

Spending in the most recent cycle surpassed that amount, based on the $52.6 billion detailed in documents obtained by The Post plus a separate $23 billion devoted to intelligence programs that more directly support the U.S. military.

Lee H. Hamilton, an Indiana Democrat who chaired the House Intelligence Committee and co-chaired the commission that investigated the Sept. 11 attacks, said that access to budget details will enable an informed public debate on intelligence spending for the first time, much as Snowden’s disclosures of NSA surveillance programs brought attention to operations that had assembled data on nearly every U.S. citizen.

“Much of the work that the intelligence community does has a profound impact on the life of ordinary Americans, and they ought not to be excluded from the process,” Hamilton said.

“Nobody is arguing that we should be so transparent as to create dangers for the country,” he said. But, he added, “there is a mind-set in the national security community: ‘Leave it to us, we can handle it, the American people have to trust us.’ They carry it to quite an extraordinary length so that they have resisted over a period of decades transparency. . . . The burden of persuasion as to keeping something secret should be on the intelligence community, the burden should not be on the American public.”

Experts said that access to such details about U.S. spy programs is without precedent....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 31, 2013 - 09:51am PT
crøtch

climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
NSA is back on the NYTimes.com front page.

N.S.A. Foils Much Internet Encryption
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 5, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
Consider the absurdity of the police-state we now live in. American sheep are waking up but not fast enough. Most are lulled back to sleep by the propaganda that this massive invasion of privacy somehow is "keeping us safe" from the boogey men. Boogey men that they sometimes invent and/or fund. Real criminals have known for the past 50+ years not to use any traceable communications. So this absurdly expensive surveillance is clearly to control dissent among the formerly law-abiding.

But how best to tear down the corrupt system that is in place now? Without an concerted uprising of our own military I don't see where to even begin.
WBraun

climber
Sep 5, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
But how best to tear down the corrupt system that is in place now?

Keep exposing it and keep raising the/your consciousness.

You might not think you're doing much at all but you are just by exposing it to your own self and raising your own consciousness.

From there it will expand and take hold.

Human beings by their original true nature are good hearted and compassionate to all living entities .....

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 8, 2013 - 11:15am PT
Lots of interesting news about the NSA this past week, in spite of the current US administration trying to start a new war, with the hope of distracting the American public from these revelations.

Glen Greenwald has a concise summary, with lots of links: NSA encryption story, Latin American fallout and US/UK attacks on press freedoms - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/07/nsa-encryption-us-uk-press-freedoms

Security expert Bruce Schneier: The US government has betrayed the internet. We need to take it back - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/05/government-betrayed-internet-nsa-spying

I like this part from above:
We need to figure out how to re-engineer the internet to prevent this kind of wholesale spying. We need new techniques to prevent communications intermediaries from leaking private information.

We can make surveillance expensive again. In particular, we need open protocols, open implementations, open systems – these will be harder for the NSA to subvert.

The Internet Engineering Task Force, the group that defines the standards that make the internet run, has a meeting planned for early November in Vancouver. This group needs to dedicate its next meeting to this task. This is an emergency, and demands an emergency response.

Finally, this post by John Gilmore mentions the NSA's history of trying to dilute and defeat improvements in encryption: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg12325.html



WBraun

climber
Sep 8, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Duck always flies high above the fog .....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 9, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
keep your communications clean ("nothing to hide" for honest person)


so, I suppose people who expose the wrongdoings of corporations are not honest people, eh tioga?

What a fool.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 25, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
PS. In fact, NSA should, hopefully--and eventually--pull the plug on internet trash that's floating around, poisoning minds of new generations of not only "Americans" but entire world. The lewdness, pornography, profanity, advertisements that lure people into health-damaging behaviors, spreading vice for profit, etc, etc.

you should go straighten out that fish on the back of your car....its upside down.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Sep 25, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
So how's life in Russia working out for Paul Revere anyway?

Anyone know?
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 2, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
Today the NSA director admitted that they lied. Has anyone caught Snowden in a lie yet?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/2/nsa-chief-figures-foiled-terror-plots-misleading/


"The Obama administration’s credibility on intelligence suffered another blow Wednesday as the chief of the National Security Agency admitted that officials put out numbers that vastly overstated the counterterrorism successes of the government’s warrantless bulk collection of all Americans’ phone records.

Pressed by the Democratic chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee at an oversight hearing, Gen. Keith B. Alexander admitted that the number of terrorist plots foiled by the NSA’s huge database of every phone call made in or to America was only one or perhaps two — far smaller than the 54 originally claimed by the administration."

...
"Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper denied that the number of plots foiled should be the sole metric by which the success of the program is measured. “I think there’s another metric here that’s very important. … I would call it the ‘peace of mind’ metric.”

OMG! tell me we're not going to lose our peace of mind if the NSA stops recording everything we do. OMG ! NOT PEACE OF MIND!! OH NOESSSSSS!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 3, 2013 - 11:11am PT
What would you say is the single most shocking revelation that Snowden has leaked and why?

(GG): The general revelation that the objective of the NSA is literally the elimination of global privacy: ensuring that every form of human electronic communication - not just those of The Terrorists™ - is collected, stored, analyzed and monitored.

The NSA has so radically misled everyone for so long about its true purpose that revealing its actual institutional function was shocking to many, many people, and is the key context for understanding these other specific revelations.
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
regarding this "fake scandal" jhedge keeps referring to:

it's good to know that if the nsa had started a secret physical mail tracking and logging database, [making sure that every time you sent a christmas package to aunt betty, the nsa would know and indefinitely keep it on file that you had sent a package of 11" X 13" X 6"H to Mrs. Beatrice Arbuckle of Springfield, USA on Dec. 20, 1984] that this too would have its defenders. /s

'cause in case there are those who haven't put two and two together, yet, the above isn't an exaggerated metaphor. rather, it is exactly equivalent to the minimum of what has been set up. the only difference between the above example and existing reality is one is physical and the other is electronic.

a few of the people on this thread make me wonder if people are naive, confused about how technology and the internet work, just so afraid that they are now demanding big brother, or whether they are paid government shills.

'cause regarding the latter, there are a few of you, who if you aren't being paid, should really look into how you might request a paycheque from uncle sam inc.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 4, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Exaggerated risks

"It might be helpful to consider something called the banana equivalent dose (BED). This is a term used in physics to measure the amount of radiation emitted by a banana. It is a number popular with people who think the dangers of radiation are exaggerated, and who use it to make the point that almost everything is radioactive. A dental x-ray has a BED of 50; serious radiation poisoning takes a BED of 20m; sleeping next to someone for one night has a BED of 0.5 and living within 50 miles of a nuclear power plant for a year has a BED of 0.9.

Since 9/11, 53 people have been killed by terrorists in the UK. Every one of those deaths is tragic. So is every one of the 26,805 deaths to have occurred on Britain's roads between 2002 and 2012 inclusive, an average of 6.67 deaths a day. Let's call that the SDRD, standard daily road deaths. The terrorist toll for 12 years comes to 0.0121 SDRD. This means that 12 years of terrorism has killed as many people in the UK as eight days on our roads.

The security establishment will immediately reply that this figure leaves out deaths of terrorism victims abroad and the lives saved by its secret actions, none of which can be made known without jeopardising current and future operations.

Is that enough of a justification for the scale and extent of what is happening to our privacy? Is the current supervisory regime – which involves senior judges inspecting GCHQ's actions, "within the circle of secrecy", and issuing a secret report – adequate to the scale of the state's powers?

I'd repeat the point that as digital technology, and the ability to enact surveillance through technology, expands its remit, those powers are increasing almost by the day.

In the UK we have a strange sleepy indifference to questions of surveillance and privacy. "The innocent have nothing to fear," says William Hague. But who gets to define who is innocent? Who gets to say what is contradictory to the "economic wellbeing" of the UK? If the innocent have nothing to fear, why is the state reading so many of our emails, and sucking up so much metadata from our phones and computers, under the umbrella of "sigint development"?

Police state

People misunderstand what a police state is. It isn't a country where the police strut around in jackboots; it's a country where the police can do anything they like. Similarly, a security state is one in which the security establishment can do anything it likes.

We are right on the verge of being an entirely new kind of human society, one involving an unprecedented penetration by the state into areas which have always been regarded as private. Do we agree to that? If we don't, this is the last chance to stop it happening. Our rulers will say what all rulers everywhere have always said: that their intentions are good, and we can trust them. They want that to be a sufficient guarantee.

My proposals

There's no need for us to advance any further down this dark road. Here are two specific proposals. The first is that the commissioners who supervise GCHQ include, alongside the senior judges who currently do the work, at least one or two public figures who are publicly known for their advocacy of human rights and government openness. The "circle of secrecy" needs to include some people who are known for not being all that keen on the idea of secrecy.

My second proposal is for a digital bill of rights. The most important proviso on the bill would be that digital surveillance must meet the same degree of explicit targeting as that used in interception of mail and landlines. No more "one end overseas" and "sigint development" loopholes to allow the mass interception of communications. There can be no default assumption that the state is allowed access to our digital life.

As the second most senior judge in the country, Lord Hoffmann, said in 2004 about a previous version of our anti-terrorism laws: "The real threat to the life of the nation, in the sense of a people living in accordance with its traditional laws and political values, comes not from terrorism but from laws like these. That is the true measure of what terrorism may achieve.""

John Lanchester in The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/edward-snowden-files-john-lanchester
WBraun

climber
Oct 4, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
All US judges including the Supreme Court are under continuous NSA surveillance for blackmail.

US Federal Judge John Roll was shot dead a few days after he issued major court ruling against Obama and US gov’t.

Previously, federal judges have had family members attacked and been threatened, but starting the actual killing of US Federal Judges was an important message to all US judges, helping convince US Chief Justice Roberts to rule in favour of Obamacare.

Bribing, extorting, intimidating US judges is at the very centre of Americans losing all their rights, but media deflect onto the less-important Obama or Bush or Congress.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 5, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 9, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
Maybe these people aren't so smart after all.

according to the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE), which is in charge of overseeing the data center's construction. ACE disagreed with the contractor and said the meltdowns are "not yet sufficiently understood." -

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2013/10/08/2-Billion-NSA-Spy-Center-Going-Flames


Anyone there own a copy of the NEC?





WBraun

climber
Oct 9, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
Putinator just called me on the telephone and gave answer.

He said; "Do not pay attention to politards on supertopo"
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 14, 2013 - 12:21am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/12/edward-snowden-nsa-surveillance-wikileaks-videos

The National Security Agency whistleblower, Edward Snowden, has said that the mass surveillance programmes used by the US to tap into phone and internet connections around the world is making people less safe.

In short video clips posted by the WikiLeaks website on Friday, Snowden said that the NSA's mass surveillance, which he disclosed before fleeing to Russia, "puts us at risk of coming into conflict with our own government".
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 14, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
Comon Riley are you blind? Turn off the TV man! There is still hope for you...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 24, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/24/nsa-surveillance-world-leaders-calls

As long as it was only the European people who had their calls monitored, the authorities of European nations were not overly enthusiastic to protect anyone from the spying, but now that the top leaders see that they themselves have had their calls monitored by the NSA, they are starting to get the motivation to do something, even Merkel in Germany. Thank God!

Are American products still NSA-enhanced for spying? Are we stupid to buy American technology? American mobil phones? American PCs? Are American companies still deceiving us customers?

I still want to buy Microsoft Surface Pro - should I? Will Microsoft and the Surface Pro deceive me as a customer and give the NSA access to everything I do on the pc?

I've got an Acer stationary pc at the moment. Is the NSA already there? (I guess so)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 24, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
If you can split the raw IP traffic at various major trunks you don't really need much "hidden" on the clients. You'd ideally just need the local MAC address of the client to create a decent filter and that's about it.

So as long as you're randomly spoofing your MAC address and constantly rotating from one free wifi spot to the next (with no cameras)... you're good!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 25, 2013 - 10:03am PT
Pretty cool.

Think I'll download the add on

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/mozillas-lightbeam-tool-will-expose-who-is-looking-over-your-shoulder-on-the-web-8902269.html
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Oct 25, 2013 - 10:48am PT
NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts

I like how all the news sources report this as though it was absolute truth.

Snowden may be completely bullshiting everybody with fake documents.

Releasing these "facts" ever so slowly, getting more attention than if they were all released all at once. It's obvious that he's trying to get as much attention as possible, and inflict as much damage on the Obama administration as possible.

This isn't about being a whistle blower...the dude's a traitor, probably working for the Kochs.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Hahahaha - you guys got suckered into believing in the most embarrassing fake scandal in recent US history.



Indeed, you and Merkel must be laughing uproariously just about now.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:06am PT
It is important to note that Snowden is not the one who is making the decisions about release of information.

It is Glenn Greenwald.

Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.

That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.

If he was simply interested in "getting the information out", He'd have dumped it all out, but he is using it for maximal effect and damage to the country.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:09am PT
I like how all the news sources report this as though it was absolute truth.



If you go there, then you cannot believe any news story you read or hear.


Interesting, that.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:12am PT
Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US.


Ken, can you back up this claim? I've never read that.
Thx,
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 25, 2013 - 11:46am PT
re Greenwald ..Well that is what happens when you go out of the way to make enemies and try to intimidate a man by harassing him and those he cares about.

I'm more concerned about the threat to our freedoms posed by apparatuses like the NSA than anything a journalist can spill about them.

A while back a president was taken down by a couple journalists.. our nation was fine. But stooping to control journalists , to threaten and censor their work.. well that's another nail in the coffin of freedoms we should be much more concerned about.

Especially so when the supposed secrets that are being shared are something that amounts to common sense assumptions anyone should have made years ago based on the mission and capabilities of our spy agencies.

OMG BIG NEWS THE NSA IS A SPY AGENCY ...LOL
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Yeah, Werner posted a link to an old MSM article that outlined a lot of what the NSA was doing; I believe it was the NYT, or the Post. We all knew what they were up to. Heck, if you didn't believe there were NSA back doors into every operating system commercially available, then you weren't paying attention. It's just the scope and total lack of oversight that's astounding. That, and the budget to actually do it all.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
If the UK and US governments believe that tactics like this are going to deter or intimidate us in any way from continuing to report aggressively on what these documents reveal, they are beyond deluded. If anything, it will have only the opposite effect: to embolden us even further.

Away from his desk, Greenwald is more overtly pissed, telling reporters at the airport in Rio de Janeiro, where he met Miranda upon his return home:

I will be far more aggressive in my reporting from now. I am going to publish many more documents. I am going to publish things on England too. I have many documents on England's spy system. I think they will be sorry for what they did.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
That's a far cry from saying he's trying to "cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US."

Come on... Do not equate the act of exposing gov't wrongdoing with doing that gov't harm.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
Thanks for reminding me, I gotta catch that one, Cumberbunch is rad.

Not much to do with Snowden though.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Oct 25, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Ken M says «Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US.» and «That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.»

What Greenwald has said is: «I will be far more aggressive in my reporting from now. I am going to publish many more documents. I am going to publish things on England too. I have many documents on England's spy system. I think they will be sorry for what they did.»

Greenwald has not uttered a word about damaging the government, not a word about damaging the US, not a word about doing anything that will harm the American people. To see the words of Greenwald as the words of a traitor is extreme… Ken M is in this instance extreme… and in my view "a traitor of reason", his reasoning weak and his conclusions are not following from his premises. To me it seems like Ken M is spinning just like jghedge in the surveillance case. Surprising to me, but quite clear by now.

There are times through history where I am very thankful that there were exceptional journalists who had the courage to report on matters that made people in the power structure upset, in ways that were seen as aggressive by the people in the power structure.

Newspapers are today more and more defining their role as supporters of people in the power system, when the role of the newspapers should more often be to disclose the transgressions of people in power.

An example of another journalist who was attacked by the power system and who dared to report in a way that was seen as a transgression by the power structure of his time :
"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."

What I’m not enthusiastic about when it comes to the actions of Greewald in this instance is the «retaliation voice» that can be read from his words. The disclosure of the surveillance system does not gain anything from a «retaliation mindset» caused by the harrassment of his partner by the British authorities. If they bring Greenwald out of balance, they have achieved what they wanted. I’m glad he seems to have regained his balance. I hope he just let off steam after the British transgression.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Oct 25, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Oct 25, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
I'll have a toasted cheese sandwich along with my SAM.
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Oct 27, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Oct 30, 2013 - 11:47am PT
We need to figure out how to re-engineer the internet to prevent this kind of wholesale spying. We need new techniques to prevent communications intermediaries from leaking private information.

That's the bottom line for me. There are no political solutions for this, only technical ones. Encryption, alternative routes for internet traffic, and so on. Before 9/11 this was a pretty hot issue, PGP was a radical, activist program. But then the boogeyman took over and privacy advocates had to hide lest they get obliterated by the expanding police state.

At some point I think the US military/security budget will be its downfall. Same thing happened with the Soviet Union. The military is 99% waste and only grows and grows. I live in Washington DC, where the local economy is still booming, and always will be, since taxes and military spending will always increase.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 30, 2013 - 03:48pm PT

It is Glenn Greenwald.

Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.

That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.

actually, i think that he is brilliantly causing maximal embarassment. every week there is more information out there on just how slimy NSA has been. listening in on angela merkels calls? really?

not one report has indicated real damage to teh USA. embarassment? yes. as we should be.

nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 03:57am PT
a good ted talk summarizing many of the primary issues at hand:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

the speakers conceptual framing of the u.s. surveillance state and its willing and maybe sometimes unwitting corporate partners as just another colonial venture is a poignant one.

as it seems to date, as though the u.s. public is generally pretty content with the revelations about and actions of their gov't, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the world reacts to their own leaders being tapped, their own corporate infrastructures being surveilled and etc.

given that the citizens of the empire are, as a general rule, not discontented enough to take any action, it will likely have to be the citizens of the informationally colonialized that drive any potential change.

and if there is to be any change it will not be due to "protesting" or "outrage", but rather will only happen if some mass movement hits corporate [and their governmental puppets] interests in their pocket books.
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2013 - 05:31am PT
Riley Wyna wrote: "Yup, and the moment a bunch of nut case jihadists are able to take over an American mall, the way they took over a Kenyan mall, all that horse sh#t you just wrote will go out the window."

it's true, neither i nor my friends or family have been put in the situation you describe. and so you're right with regard to the implied truism that untested talk is ultimately cheap.

otoh, don't be so arrogant as to believe that your point of chosen compromise is necessarily the one that all others will follow if only they experience the world to be, as you believe/fear it to be.

the "live free or die: death is not the worst of evils" mindset is not exclusive to the individuals of any one territory.

on my own personal list of evils worse than death are state activities such as mass and warrantless surveillance, pattern-based "signature" drone strikes, non-challengeable no-fly lists, future crime based incarceration or assassination, ... you get the picture. just because it mostly only happens to brown people at this point, doesn't make it any more abhorrent to me.

but, we can check back in another 40 years and see whether any of us have changed our minds, regarding what makes us more "secure".

given the federal u.s. state is, 40 years later, still relatively committed to an, imo, as equally lizard brain driven "war on drugs" as this more recent "war on terror" it's likely there will still be something to argue with each other over the internet about.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 3, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Congrats Californians on leading the way into the police state! Dianne Feinstein shows once again that she's lovin the surveillance. Never been a phone tap on you she didn't love. Here's some snippets on her new bill which my Senator (same party) voted against.

"Not Even Feinstein Calls Her Bill, Which Legalizes & Expands Surveillance, ‘Reform’


"As Trevor Timm of the Electronic Frontier Foundation suggests, her bill would “permanently entrench the NSA’s collection of every phone record held by US telecoms.”"

....

The American Civil Liberties Union argues Feinstein’s legislation would legalize “warrantless wiretapping of people known to be located in the US for seven days, if surveillance began abroad. It would legalize “queries of US persons’ names or email addresses without probable cause” so long as there was an “articulable foreign intelligence purpose.”
...

End snippets.


I find the NSA actions and the direction this administration going to monitor, kill and control US citizens and the press abhorrent. However, I also know that I'd feel worse if some towel heads were able to explode a dirty nuc in my city.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
It is Glenn Greenwald.

Just as he said that he would, he is timing the release of information so as to cause the maximal amount of damage to the gov't of the US. And he has caused damage. I heard that opinion last night by a panel consisting of a lead FBI agent, the former Ambassador to Pakistan, and the Lead So Cal attorney for the ACLU, who all agreed on this point.

That would seem to me to be an act of war, by a traitor.

If "causing damage" means interfering the US government violating it's constitution and international law for the sake of ???? (Tapping Merkels phone is hardly an anti-terrorist move) then I'm all for it.

If it makes the US look bad in the eyes of the world, that's not a problem.. we should look bad and change, cause guess what, we're not really fooling anybody

Snowden has done us the greatest service. We should stop being such pussies and throw out our constitution and civil rights the minute somebody brings up the terrorist bogeyman.

Really. More people die of tylenol overdoses in the US than terrorism

peace

karl
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Are you all for interfering with the US in it's attempts to conduct it's lawful activities, such as negotiating with other countries on a variety of security and defense topics?

DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?

Glad you're all for it.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
actually, i think that he is brilliantly causing maximal embarassment. every week there is more information out there on just how slimy NSA has been. listening in on angela merkels calls? really?

not one report has indicated real damage to the USA. embarassment? yes. as we should be.

Hawkeye, I realize you just skip over the things that you don't agree with, or don't understand.....so you probably missed the part about the UCLA law professor and the chief attorney for the ACLU agreed that the country had been damaged.

Of course, that doesn't meet your lofty standards.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:42pm PT
"Are you all for interfering with the US in it's attempts to conduct it's lawful activities, such as negotiating with other countries on a variety of security and defense topics?

DURING A TIME OF WAR, traitor?"

Such BS. War is defined by the constitution as needing a formal declaration by congress. This is a BS war for the sake of strategic control and the military industrial complex.

and as a matter of fact, it's against international law to spy on the UN as we've done and would you also condone it if our allies had Obama's phone and email tapped?

It's completely lame to accept that the government has all our phones and web tapped in direct violation of the 4th amendment. The only way we know the government has become the real traitor is guys like Snowden.

The agencies of the government do not constitute our country when they run afoul of our principles. then THEY are the traitors

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Nov 3, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Guys like Ken M is what's wrong with the USA.

Ken M doesn't even have a tiny clue what's really going on ......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 3, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/11/03/book-alleges-obama-told-aides-about-drone-strikes-im-really-good-at-killing-people/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 3, 2013 - 10:23pm PT
What is truth?

http://www.wnd.com/2013/11/cia-hit-in-1950s-mirrors-jfk-assassination/

"CIA hit in 1950s mirrors JFK assassination

Neither accused killer lived to tell his story
Published: 5 hours ago

The JFK assassination bears remarkable resemblance to a coup d’etat in Guatemala engineered by the CIA under the direction of Allen Dulles during the Eisenhower administration in the 1950s, contends WND senior writer Jerome Corsi, author of the newly released “Who Really Killed Kennedy? 50 Years Later: Stunning New Revelations about the JFK Assassination.”

The CIA plan was to shoot and kill the Guatemalan head-of-state and place the blame for the assassination on a “patsy,” a person innocent of the crime, who in turn would be murdered to frustrate any subsequent criminal investigation or trial.

Both assassins, as Corsi points out, were ex-military who left the service expressing distinct sympathies for communist Russia.

As WND reported, Corsi raises the provocative question of whether the JFK assassination was a revenge killing masterminded by CIA Director Allen Dulles. Corsi’s extensive research shows JFK may have signed his death warrant the day he fired Dulles, accusing his spy chief of lying and manipulating him in the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Corsi presents evidence that the Bay of Pigs invasion had been planned by the CIA during the Eisenhower administration as an eleventh-hour “October surprise” designed to catapult Vice President Richard M. Nixon into the White House over his Democratic Party rival, Kennedy.

“Who Really Killed Kennedy,” released last month as the 50th anniversary of the assassination approaches, is bolstered by recently declassified documents that shed new light on the greatest “who-done-it” mystery of the 20th century. Corsi sorted through tens of thousands of documents, all 26 volumes of the Warren Commission’s report, hundreds of books, several films and countless photographs.

In the 1950s, the United Fruit Company, then the world’s largest importers of bananas to the United States had some powerful friends in Washington, D.C.

Secret details of JFK’s assassination are finally unlocked. Get your autographed copy of “Who Really Killed Kennedy?” by Jerome Corsi now!

Allen Dulles, appointed by Eisenhower to head the CIA in 1953, had ties with the United Fruit Company back to 1933, when it hired Sullivan & Cromwell, the prestigious Wall Street firm in New York where Dulles was a lawyer.

After being retained as legal counsel, Dulles bought a large block of United Fruit stock.

In Washington, Thomas G. Corcoran, the prominent New Deal attorney known as “Tommy the Cork” Corcoran, was Harvard-trained, a clerk for Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes and a confident of President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Since the 1940s, the company had also retained Edward L. Bernays, the genius consultant credited for inventing public relations as a profession, whose 1928 book “Propaganda” was openly admired by Nazi Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels.

The problem began in March 1951 when Jacobo Arbenz, a professional Army officer who was the son of a Swiss pharmacist father who migrated to Guatemala, took over the leadership of the country after a successful military coup.

CIA operative E. Howard Hunt described Arbenz as “a man of modest intellect” who “had married the daughter of a prominent San Salvador family, and she, a doctrinaire Communist, had guided has career from army ranks to the presidency of Guatemala.”

Arbenz’s great sin was to initiate land reform, expropriating 225,000 acres of property from the United Fruit Company, then Guatemala’s largest employer. Ultimately, Arbenz nationalized more than 1.5 million acres, including some of his family land, to turn over to the nation’s peasants. Much of that land belonged to the United Fruit Company.

Finally, President Eisenhower and Vice President Richard Nixon ordered the National Security Council to overthrow the Arbenz regime in Guatemala.

The CIA offered the assignment to E. Howard Hunt.

“I was told that this was currently the most important clandestine project in the world,” Hunt wrote, “and that if I accepted the position, I would be the head of the project’s propaganda and political action staff.”

In discussing his plans for Guatemala, Hunt was particularly open that his assignment included authorization for using covert methods to combat in Guatemala the spread of communist influence in the Western Hemisphere.

To provide the Eisenhower administration the required “plausible deniability,” Hunt determined that within the CIA the Guatemalan operation would be conducted on a “need-to-know” basis.

A cover program was set up under the code name “PB/Success.” Hunt’s unit had its own funds, communications center and chain of command within the CIA’s Western Hemisphere Division.

In Honduras, Hunt and the CIA trained a small band of mercenaries under Col. Carlos Castillo Armas, a Guatemalan military officer who had escaped from prison after an unsuccessful coup attempt against Arbenz in November 1950, as Arbenz was assuming power.

On June 17, 1954, Armas and his band of mercenaries crossed the Honduran border into Guatemala.

For several days, Hunt and the CIA organized American jets and American pilots to strafe and bombard Guatemala City, the capital of Guatemala.

The truth is that Carlos Castillo Armas did not lead a popular uprising against a communist regime, he lead a mercenary army financed and trained by the CIA in a CIA-engineered coup d’etat.

Behind the scenes were John Foster Dulles, secretary of state under Eisenhower, and his brother Allen Dulles, who headed the CIA.

The propaganda campaign designed by Hunt and Bernays was designed to make Arbenz and his government appear to be an “instrument of Moscow,” “a pawn in the communist propaganda campaign” and a “spearhead of the Soviet Union,” as the Arbenz government complained to the United Nations.

On June 25, 1954, Arbenz resigned and went into exile in the Mexican embassy.

On July 3, 1954, Armas returned to Guatemala City aboard a U.S. Embassy airplane. He received a hero’s welcome, all orchestrated by the CIA, from 100,000 cheering Guatemalans who gathered at the palace balcony to usher him into power.

Five days later, a Guatemalan military junta elected Armas to power. In August 1954, Armas suspended all civil liberties. Within a week of taking power, the Armas government arrested 4,000 people accused of participating in communist activity. Within four months, some 72,000 Guatemalans were registered as communists.

Armas proceeded to reverse the reforms put into place by Arbenz. Land appropriated in nationalization efforts was taken away from the peasants and returned to the United Fruit Company.

The assassination and the patsy

Within three years, the United States soured on Armas.

On July 26, 1957, Armas was assassinated at around 9 p.m. as he and his wife prepared to enter the dining room of the Presidential Palace.

Two bullets, one of which severed his aorta, struck him down, killing him instantly.

The assassin, identified as 20-year-old Romeo Vasquez Sanchez, was said to have committed suicide immediately, using the same rifle he had used to kill Armas.

The Guatemalan government identified Sanchez as a disgruntled soldier dismissed from the military in June 1955 because of his “communist ideology.”

Yet, somehow, Sanchez managed to rehabilitate himself sufficiently to have been a member of the Presidential Palace Guard when he committed the assassination.

Little noticed by the international press at the time, Armas was assassinated just four days after trying to close a casino owned by an associate of U.S. mob figure Johnny Rosselli. At the time, Rosselli and Carlos Marcello, the “godfather” from New Orleans, were expanding their presence in Guatemala.

The Guatemalan Army claimed to have a 40-page handwritten diary in which the assassin referred to “a diabolical plan to put an end to the existence of the man who holds power.”

The diary reportedly read: “I have had the opportunity to study Russian communism. The great nation that is Russia is fulfilling a most important mission in history … the Soviet Union is the first world power in progress and scientific research.”

The Guatemalan government LAO claimed to have evidence that linked Sanchez to Moscow. The evidence produced was a card from the Latin American service of Radio Moscow that read: “It is our pleasure, dear listener, to engage in correspondence with you. We are very thankful for your regular listening to our programs.”

Yet, no evidence was ever produced to prove Sanchez was ever a member of the Guatemalan Communist Party.

Parallels with Lee Harvey Oswald

There are many parallels between Sanchez and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Both were ex-military who left the service expressing distinct sympathies for communist Russia.

Assassination researchers Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartmann, in their 2005 book “Ultimate Sacrifice,” point out that Oswald was “a seemingly communist ex-Marine who was able to get a job at a sensitive firm – a Dallas company that helped prepare maps on U-2 spy plane photos – even after he returned from his ‘defection’ to the Soviet Union.”

Waldron and Hartman note that in comparison, the “Guatemala patsy” was described by the Guatemalan government as a communist fanatic who was expelled from the Guatemalan Army only six months before he assassinated Armas. Yet somehow Sanchez had still been allowed to join the Presidential Palace Guard.

How was that possible? Surely the Presidential Palace Guard would have been a sufficiently elite military unit to require a background check before they were hired. Waldron and Hartman further note both were ex-military who were described as communist nuts that killed a president with a rifle, conveniently leaving behind diaries rambling in communist propaganda.

There is no photographic proof that either Sanchez or Oswald were the assassins who pulled the trigger.

Neither had any witnesses who were in the room with them when they pulled the triggers.

Neither made any confession of their crimes.

Both were soon killed themselves – with Jack Ruby shooting Oswald and Sanchez shooting himself, obviating any need for a criminal investigation or trial.

Both the Armas assassination and the JFK assassination were considered open-and-shut cases in which responsible government and law enforcement authorities declared the guilt of Sanchez and Oswald was obvious, such that doubters could be dismissed as “conspiracy theorists.”

Both assassins were dead and buried a short time after the assassination, avoiding a prolonged time for grief or for unanswered questions to surface.

In neither case has any written record been produced of government interrogation. Oswald was questioned by Dallas Police, the FBI and/or Secret Service after his arrest. Sanchez was interrogated prior to being released from the military because of suspicions he was a communist.

In both cases, Sanchez and Oswald made perfect patsies because authorities openly proclaimed their guilt before trial, and their deaths made sure neither would have the opportunity to counter accusations.

The suicide of Sanchez closed the investigation of the Armas assassination, just as Jack Ruby murdering Oswald closed the investigation of the JFK assassination."
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 12, 2013 - 10:31pm PT
What will be more fun is when the public gets access to the same tools (even better ones as the tech advances) and it gets used on wall street and public officials.

There will come a day when the public will be impossible to keep out.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 13, 2013 - 12:16am PT
Norton, the real bad guys knew not to use telephones 50 years ago. They knew to search people for wires. Do you think for a minute the real terrorist criminals of today are that stupid as to use email?

The only reason to capture and store this much information on everyone forever is material for blackmail at a later date if need be. You're all guilty of crimes you might not even know you've committed. Any of that nonsense can now be used against you should you ever show up on their radar.

The biggest threat to our country is not foreign terrorists. It's the cancer pulling the strings of the rotten puppets in Washington D.C. We've truly destroyed ourselves from within.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 13, 2013 - 02:46am PT
What will be more fun is when the public gets access to the same tools (even better ones as the tech advances) and it gets used on wall street and public officials.

Just ask Patreaus or Weiner........
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 13, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 20, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/11/20/exclusive_inside_americas_plan_to_kill_online_privacy_rights_everywhere
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 3, 2013 - 06:50am PT
An open letter from Carl Bernstein to Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger. Watergate scandal journalist's letter comes as Guardian editor prepares to appear before MPs over Edward Snowden leaks

"Dear Alan,

There is plenty of time – and there are abundant venues – to debate relevant questions about Mr Snowden's historical role, his legal fate, the morality of his actions, and the meaning of the information he has chosen to disclose.

But your appearance before the Commons today strikes me as something quite different in purpose and dangerously pernicious: an attempt by the highest UK authorities to shift the issue from government policies and excessive government secrecy in the United States and Great Britain to the conduct of the press – which has been quite admirable and responsible in the case of the Guardian, particularly, and the way it has handled information initially provided by Mr Snowden.

Indeed, generally speaking, the record of journalists, in Britain and the United States in handling genuine national security information since World War II, without causing harm to our democracies or giving up genuine secrets to real enemies, is far more responsible than the over-classification, disingenuousness, and (sometimes) outright lying by a series of governments, prime ministers and presidents when it comes to information that rightly ought to be known and debated in a free society. Especially in recent years.

You are being called to testify at a moment when governments in Washington and London seem intent on erecting the most serious (and self-serving) barriers against legitimate news reporting – especially of excessive government secrecy – we have seen in decades."


"What is new and most significant about the information originating with Mr Snowden and some of its specificity is how government surveillance has been conducted by intelligence agencies without the proper oversight – especially in the United States – by the legislative and judicial branches of government charged with such oversight, especially as the capabilities of information-gathering have become so pervasive and enveloping and with the potential to undermine the rights of all citizens if not carefully supervised. The "co-operation" of internet and telecommunications companies in some of these activities ought to be of particular concern to legislative bodies like the Commons and the US Congress.

As we have learned following the recent disclosures initiated by Mr Snowden, intelligence agencies – especially the NSA in the United States – have assiduously tried to avoid and get around such oversight, been deliberately unforthcoming and oftentimes disingenuous with even the highest government authorities that are supposed to supervise their activities and prevent abuse.

That is the subject of the rightful and necessary public debate that is now taking place in the US, the UK and elsewhere."

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/03/open-letter-carl-bernstein-alan-rusbridger
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Dec 5, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
http://cryptome.org/2013/12/Full-Disclosure.pdf
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 9, 2013 - 09:06pm PT
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2013 - 02:25am PT
“We cannot trust” Intel and Via’s chip-based crypto, FreeBSD developers say

http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/12/we-cannot-trust-intel-and-vias-chip-based-crypto-freebsd-developers-say/

Good news.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Dec 13, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
The NSA is spying on every American without any violent past. Still a man suffering from schizophrenia, who has a violent past and may even have commited murder in 2003, can stand as close as one can get to the American president for a long time. What's happening in America?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/12/mandela-memorial-interpreter-history-violent-behaviour
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 16, 2013 - 12:06am PT
What will be more fun is when the public gets access to the same tools (even better ones as the tech advances) and it gets used on wall street and public officials.

There will come a day when the public will be impossible to keep out.

And they will know your actual name, you won't be able to hide behind a screen name, and where exactly you live, work, and what you make and spend it on.

I see why you look forward to that.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 16, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Norton, the real bad guys knew not to use telephones 50 years ago. They knew to search people for wires. Do you think for a minute the real terrorist criminals of today are that stupid as to use email?

Then you have no knowledge of the mafia in this country. They certainly did.

You also don't know how the CIA tracked down UBL...partially by a pattern of NO usage of phones out of a residence.

As for stupid, ask the former head of the CIA about confidential email....

But in any case, none of this is reason to tell our enemies just what our capabilities are, and how to avoid them....
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Dec 16, 2013 - 07:07am PT
Washington (AFP) - US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden effectively stole the "keys to the kingdom" when he swiped more than 1.5 million top secret files, a senior National Security Agency official said in an interview aired Sunday.
Related Stories


Rick Ledgett, who heads the NSA taskforce in charge of assessing the impact of Snowden's leaks, told CBS televisions's "60 Minutes" that the contractor possessed a "roadmap" of the US intelligence community's strengths and weaknesses.

NSA chief General Keith Alexander meanwhile said that suggestions the agency was routinely eavesdropping on the phone calls of Americans was false, insisting that less than 60 "US persons" were currently being targeted worldwide.

Ledgett said of particular concern was Snowden's theft of around 31,000 documents the NSA official described as an "exhaustive list of the requirements that have been levied against the National Security Agency."

"What that gives is, what topics we're interested in, where our gaps are," said Ledgett. "Additional information about US capabilities and US gaps is provided as part of that."

The information could potentially offer a rival nation a "roadmap of what we know, what we don't know, and give them -- implicitly -- a way to protect their information from the US intelligence community's view," the NSA official added.
View gallery
U.S. spying controversy
In this Thursday, June 6, 2013, file photo, a sign stands outside the National Security Administrati …

"It is the keys to the kingdom."

Ledgett said he would be open to the possibility of an amnesty for Snowden, who remains exiled in Russia, if he agreed to stop further leaks of classified information.

"My personal view is, yes, it's worth having a conversation about" a possible deal, said Ledgett.

Snowden has been charged with espionage by US authorities for divulging reams of secret files.

The former NSA contractor has insisted he spilled secrets to spark public debate and expose the NSA's far-reaching surveillance.
View gallery
NSA Director General Alexander testifies before the …
U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) Director General Keith Alexander testifies before the Senate Jud …

But Alexander rejected the idea of any amnesty for Snowden.

"This is analogous to a hostage-taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10 and then say 'You give me full amnesty and I'll let the other 40 go,'" Alexander told "60 Minutes."

Alexander also challenged the view that the NSA was engaged in widespread surveillance of Americans.

"NSA can only target the communications of a US person with a probable cause finding under specific court order," he said, referring to the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.

"Today, we have less than 60 authorizations on specific persons to do that."
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 16, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/national-security-agency-phones-judge-101203.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 16, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
AT&T Verizon, etc.

Can not send a bunch of men in body armor with big guns to break into your house and kill you if you resist!

Government can!

That's why we have a Constitution with a Bill of Rights.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 16, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
They aren't government and you willingly entered into a contract with them.

I suggest you read it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 16, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Apples and oranges.

Did you fail 5th grade civics?

Or, do they even teach that anymore?

Heyzeus

climber
Hollywood,Ca
Dec 16, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
A contract that violates constitutional rights is not legal and not binding.

Correct, you can't sign your rights away.
If I'm a landlord renting an apartment in a rent-controlled city, I can put some jive in the lease that the tenant signs agreeing to waive rent-control laws, but it would never be upheld by a judge.

Good luck with that though.
Also true.
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 17, 2013 - 12:13am PT
hmmm - only 60 americans worldwide ? are you sure ?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805

"This is analogous to a hostage-taker taking 50 people hostage, shooting 10 and then say 'You give me full amnesty and I'll let the other 40 go,'" Alexander told "60 Minutes."

That is so laughable and terrifying at the same time...
thebravecowboy

Social climber
Colorado Plateau
Dec 17, 2013 - 01:00am PT
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/everything-you-need-to-know-about-todays-court-ruling-on-nsa-spying-20131216
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:32am PT
Judge Leon:

Indeed, the question in this case can more properly be styled as follows: when do present-day circumstances—the evolutions in the Government's surveillance capabilities, citizens' phone habits, and the relationship between the NSA and telecom companies—become so thoroughly unlike those considered by the Supreme Court 34 years ago that a precedent like Smith simply does not apply? The answer, unfortunately for the government, is now.

Score one for the good guys.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:36am PT
Anyone think of something that would be unconstitutional for the gov't to do that's constitutional for a corporation to do?

Sure, that's easy. Here's one: limit speech. CMac can legally limit what you say on this forum, the government on the other hand...
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 17, 2013 - 02:59am PT
just couldn't stay away, eh Joe?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 17, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Again, any examples of a corporation being allowed to engage in an activity that the gov't is barred from on constitutional grounds?

John--you're missing some key concepts regarding constitutional law. Look up "state action doctrine."
Here's an obvious example off the top of my head--a corporation can promote a specific religion as much as it wants to, indeed that can be the sole purpose of the corporation. The example listed above cMac being able to censor this site how he sees fit also works.
You're welcome.

WBraun

climber
Dec 18, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
You're the one that's paranoid Joe.

You're worried that some terrorists will bomb LA with you in it .......
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 22, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
Interesting story!

A spy world reshaped by Edward Snowden:

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-nsa-snowden-20131222,0,7166210.story
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 22, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/white-house-tries-to-prevent-judge-from-ruling-on-surveillance-efforts.html
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Dec 22, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
the secretly turning on cameras deal is still f!!cked.

Most of the camera on a chip modules are made in china. Do you think
they said "No we won't do it! Its immoral!" when the NSA asked them to
design in hardware/firmware to allow snapping peoples pics secretly?
Duh!

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/fbi-can-secretly-turn-laptops-camera-says-ex-employee/

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 22, 2013 - 07:22pm PT


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 22, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Am sure Boeing is grateful to the NSA for screwing up the $4 billion contract they expected to get from Brazil :)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/latin-american-business/how-us-spying-cost-boeing-multibillion-dollar-brazil-jet-contract/article16073110/
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Dec 23, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
Ever wonder whats up with all those telemarketer calls
that never leave a message?

Its the FBI tricking us to pose for pictures.
I mean your cell rings and you naturally look
at the display to see who's calling and
then they secretly and silently snap your picture.

Black electrical tape over all lens.


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 24, 2013 - 01:45am PT
Edward Snowden, after months of NSA revelations, says his mission’s accomplished

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward-snowden-after-months-of-nsa-revelations-says-his-missions-accomplished/2013/12/23/49fc36de-6c1c-11e3-a523-fe73f0ff6b8d_story.html

“The oath of allegiance is not an oath of secrecy,” (Snowden) said. “That is an oath to the Constitution. That is the oath that I kept that Keith Alexander and James Clapper did not.”

People who accuse him of disloyalty, he said, mistake his purpose.

“I am not trying to bring down the NSA, I am working to improve the NSA,” he said. “I am still working for the NSA right now. They are the only ones who don’t realize it.”
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 30, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
Interesting story from Der Siegel, details courtesy of Snowden:

Inside TAO: Documents Reveal Top NSA Hacking Unit

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-nsa-uses-powerful-toolbox-in-effort-to-spy-on-global-networks-a-940969-druck.html
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Dec 30, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
tioga how does spying on every American play into that ? I don't see the connection...

edit
Don't be fooled: the 1st world life is only possible while there're nuclear weapons guarding it and powerful technology protecting security of said weapons


Coward ;-)

double edit :

As an American - Am I more likely to be
a) killed by terrorists
b) have my house foreclosed on illegally
c) die due to lack of medical insurance
Yak-Chik

Trad climber
Phoenix
Dec 31, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
Anyone know how to detect and remove this DROPOUTJEEP spyware?

this is getting bad.

NSA Spyware Gives Backdoor Access to Everyones iPhones
http://www.cultofmac.com/260213/nsa-spyware-allegedly-gives-backdoor-access-iphones/

http://news.silobreaker.com/jacob-appelbaum-11_23858942
-Apple denial is not believable! Absolutely helped NSA hack the iphone.

-Your iPhone Is Watching You: Documents Reveal That NSA Has Total Access to Apple Phones.

-Shipping companies largely silent on NSA intercepting cell phones/computers, installing spyware and hardware spy gadgets,
swapping in USB cables with hidden radios inside etc.



TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 31, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/12/30/nsas-ant-division-catalog-of-exploits-for-nearly-every-major-software-hardware-firmware/
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 1, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
tioga said: "the fact that you're the least likely to die from terrorist attack is exactly due to massive security efforts."

this connection would, at first glance, appear to make straightforward common sense.

but is there really any evidence to back this assertion?



let's do a quick run through just a couple of the u.s. govt's most significant post 9/11 "massive security efforts":

1. iraq war: does anyone seriously think at this point that a war against the gov't of a country that had no significant connections with terrorism and that has killed 4 400 american soldiers, wounded at minimum another 30 000, all while killing a consensus minimum 100 000 civilians is one of the reasons for the lack of domestic u.s. terrorism attacks?

and equally as important these post 9/11 mid-east wars have cost the u.s. people 3-6 trillion dollars.

that works out to $10-20 000 per every u.s. citizen or $20-40 000 per every taxpayer.

2. mass surveillance: you seriously think that spending $80 billion per year on your national and military intelligence programs is "exactly" one of the reasons why the u.s. has had very few post 9/11 terrorism strikes? even though when the u.s. political/military/intelligence communities are pressed to justify the erosion of freedoms and large amount of money spent on specifically nsa mass surveillance programs, they make exaggerated claims of "54 disrupted terrorist plots" that then have to be walked back down to "at most one plot that might have been disrupted"?

you seriously think that if these programs were successful the powers that be wouldn't be justifying them at every point possible by repeatedly letting us know how many terrorist plots they had stopped?

that $80 billion works out to roughly $500 per every year and per every single u.s. taxpayer.



i could carry on with explications regarding remotely operated robots that have a 1 in 50 record of killing verifiable high value targets, while having a minimum 1 in 10 record of killing a verifiable civilian or tsa programs that seize cupcakes and toenail clippers or etc.

suffice to say that while the u.s. has been generally free of post 9/11 domestic terrorist attacks and this has been in part due to a few of the security measures that were both already and subsequently put in place, the bulk of the massive security measures have contributed nothing to the lack of attacks.

moreso and arguably, the bulk of these massive security measures have directly contributed to more threat, and to more insecurity by showing the world that the u.s. does not have a gov't that practices what it politically preaches, at least in so far as its dealings with the rest of the world.

and even if one doesn't agree with the preceding idea of direct contribution it is completely undeniable that these massive security measures have indirectly made the u.s. populace more insecure.

this is because ultimately, the u.s. can't financially afford these massive security measures.

a house with guns, that can't afford food is more insecure than the inverse.

the u.s. has economically destabilized itself, in part, chasing a tail of fear that it will never catch.

the longer people keep repeating the delusion that this chase is what keeps them secure, the worse the hangover is going to be...

good luck.

froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 2, 2014 - 01:59am PT
The NYT editorial board weighs in...

Considering the enormous value of the information he has revealed, and the abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden deserves better than a life of permanent exile, fear and flight. He may have committed a crime to do so, but he has done his country a great service. It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower, and have the hope of a life advocating for greater privacy and far stronger oversight of the runaway intelligence community...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/02/opinion/edward-snowden-whistle-blower.html?_r=0
command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jan 2, 2014 - 03:05am PT
Knowledge of the NSA iphone exploit is a gift to hackers.
Just knowing its possible does most of the work to figure it out.
And most of this NSA snooping is automated anyway. You set
monitoring gear on an iphone and text some keywords that
should trigger their interest and capture signal traffic.


paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Jan 2, 2014 - 10:00am PT
nah000 gave a much mor elegant reply than the 'Bullshit !' I was going to come back with.

the fact that you're the least likely to die from terrorist attack is exactly due to massive security efforts.

This is just plain WRONG. Completely and utterly WRONG. And I repeat my question - How does spying on every American accomplish this ? How does sending NSA data to the DEA information leading to drug busts for instance have ANY affect on terrorist actions ?

We're number one in this though !! Yah !!!
http://rt.com/news/us-biggest-threat-peace-079/
Yak-Chik

Trad climber
Phoenix
Jan 2, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
Oh wow!

Either Apple Computer told the NSA about the iphone backdoor
or the government accidentally stumbled onto it. Right!

Which is like guessing the winning lottery numbers but many times harder
given 32bit encryption.

Even since iOS 7 was released, vulnerabilities have been patched which
could allow full compromise without the knowledge of the user.

Usually you need two vulnerabilities to accomplish this: an arbitrary
code execution vulnerability to gain control, and a privilege escalation
vulnerability to gain admin or root privileges.

Once you have this, you can install whatever software you want.

This, incidentally, is how jailbreaking works.
Every jailbreak is based on at least one security flaw in iOS.
We know these work, so we know that what the NSA claims is perfectly
possible.

http://www.zdnet.com/no-surprise-the-nsa-can-hack-iphones-7000024691/
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jan 2, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
Also have to assume all those airport cell phone/gadget charging stations try to install NSA spyware onto our devices.
So disgustingly obvious..

http://gizmodo.com/your-iphone-can-be-hacked-with-a-modified-charger-510988017
http://technomag.co.zw/2013/08/03/fake-charger-hides-trojan-in-iphones-facebook-app/


couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 2, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
RFID tracking chips in bills Dingus? I googled it and get this:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html

This is what occurs when they get microwaved it's said:

Expecting a knock on the door from the feds soon.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 3, 2014 - 01:16am PT
About the author:

Christina Sarich is a musician, yogi, humanitarian and freelance writer who channels many hours of studying Lao Tzu, Paramahansa Yogananda, Rob Brezny, Miles Davis, and Tom Robbins into interesting tidbits to help you Wake up Your Sleepy Little Head, and See the Big Picture. Her blog is Yoga for the New World. Her latest book is Pharma Sutra: Healing the Body And Mind Through the Art of Yoga.

Great source there Klimmer ;-)
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 3, 2014 - 03:01am PT
The Reuters link makes no mention of Snowden. I stand by my assertion that a dozen crap blogs saying: "so and so said Snowden said such and such" without a credible citation == crap.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 3, 2014 - 03:17am PT
Why would I trust Kissinger? He's a tool and a liar.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 3, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
"Considering the enormous value of the information he has revealed, and the abuses he has exposed, Mr. Snowden deserves better than a life of permanent exile, fear and flight. He may have committed a crime to do so, but he has done his country a great service. It is time for the United States to offer Mr. Snowden a plea bargain or some form of clemency that would allow him to return home, face at least substantially reduced punishment in light of his role as a whistle-blower, and have the hope of a life advocating for greater privacy and far stronger oversight of the runaway intelligence community. ...

When someone reveals that government officials have routinely and deliberately broken the law, that person should not face life in prison at the hands of the same government."

New York Times editorial
WBraun

climber
Jan 3, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
he New York Times has, kind of, admitted that it messed up its big front-page story that used a "vector analysis" to pin the blame for the Aug. 21 Sarin attack on the Syrian government, an assertion that was treated by Official Washington as the slam-dunk proof that President Bashar al-Assad gassed his own people.

But you'd be forgiven if you missed the Times' embarrassing confession, since it was buried on page 8, below the fold, 18 paragraphs into a story under the not-so-eye-catching title, "New Study Refines View Of Sarin Attack in Syria."

We were right all along while a lot of you nutcases swallowed the drool from these fuk head mainstream media tools ....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 16, 2014 - 12:41am PT
http://news.yahoo.com/nsa-spy-computers-via-radio-snowden-leaks-show-222347303.html


NSA can spy on computers via radio, Snowden leaks show

Snowden fallout continues, as news organizations use leaks to probe how the NSA is breaking into computers not linked to the Internet and, mistakenly, believed to be not open to attack.

Christian Science Monitor
By Peter Grier 6 hours ago

The National Security Agency can spy on computers that aren’t physically connected to the Internet. That’s a takeaway from a big New York Times story Wednesday on NSA technical capabilities.

How? One method is to use small radio transceivers concealed within otherwise normal-looking USB plugs. These spy plugs (code name: “Cottonmouth I”) can sweep through an affected machine and broadcast stolen information to hidden relay stations up to eight miles away.

A relative of this program involves tiny circuit boards physically inserted into computers, either at the factory or via clandestine methods on-site. They allow the NSA to connect to computers which users believe to be safely insulated from Internet-based hacker attacks.


All told, the US has implanted spy software in some 100,000 computers around the world, according to David Sanger and Thom Shanker of the Times, under the overall auspices of a program named “Quantum." (Yes, a 2008 James Bond movie was called “Quantum of Solace," but that’s apparently a coincidence.) Iran has been a target, as well as Russian military networks, drug cartels, and European Union trade institutions. But the biggest focus of US interest here is China, particularly Chinese cyberwar capabilities.

“The United States has targeted Unit 61398, the Shanghai-based Chinese Army unit believed to be responsible for many of the biggest cyberattacks on the United States, in an effort to see attacks being prepared,” write Messrs. Sanger and Shanker.

Parts of this story have previously appeared elsewhere. The German news magazine Der Spiegel has published a list of NSA products that included “Cottonmouth," for instance. A Danish paper has printed a map showing where Quantum incursions occurred.

These pieces all appear based on documents provided by NSA leaker Edward Snowden, though the Times supplemented its story with extensive further reporting. In fact, the Times may have had the gist of these revelations for some time: The paper notes that, at the request of US intelligence officials, it previously withheld some details of the foreign infiltration program when writing about clandestine US efforts to derail Iran’s nuclear program in 2012.

That history shows how much publication standards have changed, writes Harvard Law School professor Jack Goldsmith at the Lawfare national security legal blog.

Wednesday’s revelations don’t deal with the privacy of US citizens, he notes. The infiltration program appears to deal exclusively with surveillance of foreign systems and intelligence – precisely the sort of thing the NSA is supposed to do. Quantum does not appear to push against any sort of NSA legal limits.

In 2012, the Times agreed not to talk about the program. In 2014, it went ahead. The big difference may be the environment created by Mr. Snowden in which all of the NSA’s activities appear to be fair game for public discussion.

“The particularly bad news for the NSA is that the NYT is more discreet than foreign journalistic outlets,” writes Mr. Goldsmith.

Goldsmith adds that US intrusion of foreign networks appears to be similar to the sorts of things the US complains that China is doing. This obvious hypocrisy isn’t going to help the US in its efforts to get Beijing to rein in Chinese cyber units.

The US doesn’t use NSA capabilities to steal trade secrets in the name of bettering the bottom line of particular US firms, an NSA spokesman told the Times for Wednesday’s story. But China considers economic secrets a legitimate intelligence target and may not be swayed by this argument, given that US diplomats routinely pressure other countries to do things – such as buy US aircraft – that benefit specific national firms.

“It’s all cheating in the name of national strength. If it’s acceptable for us to do it, we really can’t perform moral outrage that our rivals are doing it,” writes surveillance and intelligence expert Marcy Wheeler on her "emptywheel" blog.

Against this background, President Obama on Friday is expected to announce some tightening in the way the NSA handles millions of US phone records, among other things. He’s also expected to outline some broader oversight procedures for the process which determines which foreign leaders become NSA targets.

The speech caps a months-long review of NSA activities by a White House panel of outside experts appointed in response to Snowden’s revelations.
Yak-Chik

Trad climber
Phoenix
Jan 17, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
Uh oh. Troubled times in black boxy building land.



"In our ( 'Obama's' NSA ).. world where I am not ... restricted from killing an American, I personally would go and kill him myself,” a current NSA analyst told BuzzFeed. “A lot of people share this sentiment.”

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/americas-spies-want-edward-snowden-dead

command error

Trad climber
Colorado
Jan 17, 2014 - 06:57pm PT
They say that the coverup always gets you in
more trouble than the crime.

This latest BS sandwiche just makes it worse.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/technology/obama-s-plan-to-rein-in-nsa-phone-sweeps-20140117
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 17, 2014 - 10:36pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S61eL_06RZ4
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 19, 2014 - 12:00am PT
Oh, great.

Now I'm under surveillance 'cause I clicked on this page.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 19, 2014 - 02:22am PT
as if you wernt under priviously

General Alexander? Is that you?

Oh crap.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 19, 2014 - 03:05am PT
Honest General. I don't know that guy. He just lives in the same part of the country.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 19, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Aw, man....

Why is my front facing camera winking at me?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 19, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
Interesting story from the Guardian on NSA's "Dishfire" program, which collects and mines text messages.

Talk about correlating "metadata":

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/16/nsa-collects-millions-text-messages-daily-untargeted-global-sweep

clinker

Trad climber
California
Jan 19, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Privacy rights for all. State them and make them the law of the land. Hopefully all lands one standard.That will be the day, and that day will be sooner than you think. If enough people start thinking it would be today.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 20, 2014 - 02:11am PT
Oh, God.

I looked into the little lens of the camera....

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 24, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
Amazing stuff:


The National Security Agency’s program to bulk collect phone data breaks the law, violates civil liberties, does not make Americans more safe, and should be shut down, according to the federal government's own watchdog.

In a 238-page report obtained by the New York Times and Washington Post, the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board, which was created by Congress in 2007, issued the strongest rebuke of NSA spying yet from within the U.S. government.

The panel's decision, reported Thursday, takes direct aim at the legal argument cited to justify the mass phone data spying: Section 215 of the Patriot Act.

The program “lacks a viable legal foundation under Section 215, implicates constitutional concerns under the First and Fourth Amendments, raises serious threats to privacy and civil liberties as a policy matter, and has shown only limited value,” reads the report, according to the New York Times.

Links:

End It': Govt Oversight Panel Calls NSA Spying Illegal
Strongest-yet rebuke from within U.S. government; only Bush-era lawyers dissent


For Edward Snowden: Amnesty Now
His disclosures were profoundly moral. Justice demands full exoneration.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jan 24, 2014 - 08:00pm PT
January 23, 2014 - Watchdog Privacy Board Reports
NSA Metadata Collection Is Illegal and Should End.

“We have not identified a single instance involving a threat
to the United States in which the program made a concrete
difference in the outcome of a counterterrorism investigation.”

A 238-page report released January 23, 2014,
by the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB)
established with independence by Congress in 2004 to advise the
President and other senior executive branch officials about privacy
and civil liberties issues post-911 as impacted by new U. S.
anti-terrorism policies such as the Patriot Act.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 25, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Snowden is a hero of the highest order:

Link: Q&A Chat with Edward Snowden
clinker

Trad climber
California
Jan 25, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
Do to the ever enlarging obesity epidemic, fat people are being tracked by the program "Google Girth", even at night with infra-red because of their larger heat signatures.
As much as I enjoy eating I am becoming increasingly alarmed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 26, 2014 - 12:26am PT
There is a way to combat that heat signature thing

clinker

Trad climber
California
Jan 26, 2014 - 11:21am PT
Nice, my border collie is gonna be tough, he moves to fast. Now I understand the expression "foiled again".
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jan 27, 2014 - 10:54am PT


Scrolling through the reponses upthread I'd missed this:
"P.S. Couch, if I ever do manage to climb again you're always welcome. You're one of the most competent and capable climbers I've roped up with even if somewhat naively optimistic on the 'smaller government' front."

Woot!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 11, 2014 - 02:59am PT
ANNAPOLIS, Md., February 10, 2014– It’s lights out for the National Security Agency (NSA). State lawmakers in Maryland have filed emergency status legislation that seeks to cut the NSA’s Ft. Meade headquarters off from all material support stemming from the state.

“Maryland has almost become a political subdivision of the NSA,” Tenth Amendment Center Executive Director Michael Boldin said in a statement. “The agency relies heavily on state and local help. This bill bans all of it.”

House Bill 1074 (HB1074) would ban the NSA facility from all public state utilities, ban the use of NSA collected evidence in court, ban universities from partnering with the NSA and ban all political subdivisions from assisting the NSA from within the state.

Any state entity, employee or contractor refusing to comply with the law would be immediately fired and banned from all future contracts within the state.

The bill has eight Republican sponsors and has been referred to the House Judiciary Committee.

Multiple states join Maryland in their attempt to enforce anti-commandeering legislative measures against the NSA. Tennessee, Arizona, California and Washington have all filed legislation. Utah is expected to file legislation within the coming weeks.

Read more: http://benswann.com/breaking-maryland-legislators-move-to-kill-nsa-headquarters/#ixzz2szwsKLQ9
Follow us: @BenSwann_ on Twitter
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 16, 2014 - 03:08am PT
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Five-Criminals-In-Ame-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-American-Exceptionalism_Congress_Rule-Of-Law_Snowden-140213-782.html


Queen Bee Lorde at the Grammy Awards:

Thankyou soo much everyone for making this song explode because this world is mental. (Laughter). Planet Earth is run by psychopaths that hide behind slick marketing, ‘freedom’ propaganda and ‘economic growth’ rhetoric, while they construct a global system of corporatized totalitarianism.

As American journalist Chris Hedges has identified, a corporate totalitarian core thrives inside a fictitious democratic shell. This core yields an ‘inverted’ totalitarian state that few recognize because it does not look like the Orwellian world of Nineteen Eighty-four.

This corporate totalitarian core is spreading outward from America. Planet Earth is being rapidly militarized by the world’s major and significant states, including their police forces. Meanwhile, state surveillance is becoming universal and torture is outsourced to gulags.

Can we not imagine that in past times, simple folk found it hard to work out exactly how they were being manipulated by the Royal monarchies, and the Papal monarchy, who claimed a ‘divine right to rule’? Ordinary people from classical times through to the demise of Ancien Regime could not see how the rivalrous network of elites and oligarchs were linked, not least because the illiterate masses were indoctrinated to believe in their humble lot, to obey divinely-endorsed authority and to live in fear of damnation.

So, in today’s mental world, it should become clearer now that Planet Earth is ruled by super-wealthy people, who use their outrageous fortunes to steer the trajectories of whole societies for their own material and political gain. These oligarchs are, in fact, colluding for economic gain and conspiring to augment more political power. Armies of professional, political, religious and military elites serve them. Together, they comprise a highly-networked transnational capitalist class that has been traced in studies by: Peter Phillips and Brady Osborne; William K. Carroll; David Rothkopf; Daniel Estulin; and Laurence H. Shoup and William Minter.

As Canadian journalist Naomi Klein has argued in her book, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, ‘free markets’ were slickly marketed in the 1980s and 1990s with the idea that they would deliver individual freedom and prosperity for all. Klein also wrote that the use of military violence to facilitate the spread of ‘free markets’ in the field-testing stage from the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s has continued into the 2000s. Her view is supported in Eugene Jarecki’s documentary Why We Fight, which compellingly showed that America fights wars to make the world secure for its corporations. So, get reading and viewing! (Lorde giggles and half the audience rises to their feet applauding. The other half remain fixed in their chairs. Some reluctantly clap).

Thankyou soo much everyone for giving a sh#t about our song, ‘Royals’. May you all find the balls to help construct a world based on resilient community, bona-fide freedom, and peace. To do that, we will need to redeploy the psychopaths that currently run the world to the planet’s prisons. Peace cannot happen with reconciliation. That was Nelson Mandela’s mistake. The first step to peace is justice firmly served.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 26, 2014 - 04:08pm PT
One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.

Over the last several weeks, I worked with NBC News to publish a series of articles about “dirty trick” tactics used by GCHQ’s previously secret unit, JTRIG (Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group). These were based on four classified GCHQ documents presented to the NSA and the other three partners in the English-speaking “Five Eyes” alliance. Today, we at the Intercept are publishing another new JTRIG document, in full, entitled “The Art of Deception: Training for Online Covert Operations.”

By publishing these stories one by one, our NBC reporting highlighted some of the key, discrete revelations: the monitoring of YouTube and Blogger, the targeting of Anonymous with the very same DDoS attacks they accuse “hacktivists” of using, the use of “honey traps” (luring people into compromising situations using sex) and destructive viruses. But, here, I want to focus and elaborate on the overarching point revealed by all of these documents: namely, that these agencies are attempting to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse, and in doing so, are compromising the integrity of the internet itself.

Among the core self-identified purposes of JTRIG are two tactics: (1) to inject all sorts of false material onto the internet in order to destroy the reputation of its targets; and (2) to use social sciences and other techniques to manipulate online discourse and activism to generate outcomes it considers desirable. To see how extremist these programs are, just consider the tactics they boast of using to achieve those ends: “false flag operations” (posting material to the internet and falsely attributing it to someone else), fake victim blog posts (pretending to be a victim of the individual whose reputation they want to destroy), and posting “negative information” on various forums.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Feb 26, 2014 - 04:26pm PT
For those interesting in taking constructive steps towards fighting the Surveillance Society, here are two ways to do so today:

At the national level, support the USA Freedom ACT by writing your congress folk: http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/legislation/theusafreedomact.htm

Yes, Sensenbrenner helped author the USA PATRIOT ACT. Its not at all unusual for a lawmaker to help fix a problem with their own legislation.

For WA residents, support passage of the Drone Regulation Bill, EHB2789:http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=2789&year=2013
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 27, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
And across the pond...

Yahoo webcam images from millions of users intercepted by GCHQ


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/gchq-nsa-webcam-images-internet-yahoo
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 1, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
Looks like all that surveillance isn't working very well:

A day after U.S. intelligence said there would be no Russian invasion of Ukraine, Putin’s troops started coming over the border.

On Thursday night, the best assessment from the U.S. intelligence community—and for that matter most experts observing events in Ukraine—was that Vladimir Putin’s military would not invade Ukraine.

WBraun

climber
Mar 1, 2014 - 10:28pm PT
U.S. intelligence said there would be no Russian invasion of Ukraine

That's the actual truth.

The media is lying like hell right now.

Hint Victoria Nuland, check out who's she married too.

It will explain a lot. Keep digging and you'll see what's really going on.

It's not what you are hearing from MSM

Ukraine personally asked Putin to come and help.

The Russians also have an agreement in Crimea to protect the Russian interests there.

The US bought and paid for lying news media is going full bore to deceive.

The new Crimea government already has a referendum scheduled on reuniting with Russia.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 1, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
Of course the Russian Satrap would plea for intervention.

His peasants are revolting.
WBraun

climber
Mar 1, 2014 - 10:34pm PT
The sh!t going down in Ukraine is standard old school sneaky US trying to rig a puppet government in a very large 'free' and 'democratic' country.
Handjam Belay

Gym climber
expat from the truth
Mar 2, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Afer googling a map of Ukraine and seeing where Crimea really was it was all so clear.

Oil.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 2, 2014 - 04:09pm PT
http://dailyanarchist.com/2014/02/24/the-tsa-is-looking-for-bitcoin/

this is an amusing read.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 2, 2014 - 05:34pm PT

World News
03.02.14
Ukraine’s Revolutionary Lesson for Russia
Vladimir Putin isn’t sending troops into Ukraine merely to protect Russian interests abroad. He’s also trying to protect his regime at home.

As Russian forces seize key objects in Crimea, their objective is not just to create chaos in Ukraine but also to protect kleptocratic rule in Russia itself.

Russia and Ukraine under Yanukovych shared a single form of government – rule by a criminal oligarchy. This is why the anti-criminal revolution that overthrew Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych is a precedent that is perfectly applicable to Putin’s Russia. It is also the reason why, from the Russian regime’s point of view, the Ukrainian revolution must be stopped at all costs.

Russia is presently quiescent and opinion polls show that 75 percent of respondents believe that what happened in Ukraine could not happen in Russia. Public sentiment in Russia, however, is subject to dramatic shifts and, in the wake of the overthrow of Yanukovych, Russian authorities were taking nothing for granted.

Hours after the closing ceremonies of the Sochi Olympics, a Russian court sentenced opposition activists to prison terms of two to four years for taking part in a protest rally in May 2012 against President Vladimir Putin’s inauguration. When demonstrators took to the streets to protest the verdict, hundreds were detained.

This is why the anti-criminal revolution that overthrew Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych is a precedent that is perfectly applicable to Putin’s Russia

Russia also restricted what is left of the independent press. Yuri Fedutinov, the veteran director of the independent Ekho Moskvy radio station, was removed in what chief editor Alexei Benediktov said was a “political” decision aimed at changing the station’s editorial policy. The independent television channel “Dozhd” was removed from satellite and cable networks and I was expelled from Russia, where I had been serving as an adviser to Radio Liberty.

Russia and Ukraine reflect the legacy of communism, which destroyed any sense of moral values. In both countries, the rulers place the accumulation of wealth far ahead of the welfare of the nation.

In Ukraine, Yanukovych took power and began to reprivatize for the benefit of himself and the members of his immediate family. In three years, his son Olexander, a dentist, became a multi-billionaire. The owners of businesses were offered below market prices for their enterprises under threat of being ruined by courts and government inspectors.

In Russia the process was similar. The seizure of property began in earnest in 2003 after the arrest of the president of the Yukos oil company, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. At present, thousands of businessmen are in pretrial detention in Russia on false charges and at the behest of their competitors.

To accumulate wealth so fast and on such a scale, it is necessary to eliminate independent law enforcement. The result was that in Russia and Ukraine, each person was aware that he was at the mercy of the authorities who could imprison him and seize his property at any time.

It was this condition that, in Ukraine, inspired the revolt against Yanukovych. The “European choice” was popular in Ukraine not only for economic reasons but because it offered the possibility that European practices including the rule of law would be introduced there. When Yanukovych refused on November 30 to sign an association agreement with the European Union after years of promising to do so, he provoked a revolt by eliminating hope for a more democratic future.

The Putin regime has traditionally been protected by high rates of economic growth, but the conditions that previously made growth rates of 7.2 percent possible no longer exist. The increase in well-being in Russia was guaranteed by the rise in the price of oil and gas, the decline in the price of imported goods, and huge underinvestment that was compensated for by the using up of the Soviet inheritance. In the absence of these factors, growth has slowed to 1.2 per cent, with little prospect of improvement.

In 2011 and 2012, Moscow witnessed the biggest protests since the fall of the Soviet Union over the falsification of elections and Putin’s decision to run for a third term as president. The protests eventually fizzled but, given the worsening economic situation, they could be reignited.

In February 2010, two doctors, Vera Sidelnikova and Olga Aleksandrina, a mother and daughter, were killed in Moscow when their car collided head on with a car driven by Anatoly Barkov, a vice president of the Lukoil oil company who, according to witnesses, was trying to jump the morning traffic. There was an explosion of outrage on the internet, but no demonstrations. Under the right conditions, a similar incident today might bring tens of thousands into the street.

The Ukrainian revolution is a powerful example of the capacity of a people to take charge of its own destiny. The lesson would be of great benefit to Russia if it inspired Russia’s leaders to undertake real reforms. The invasion of Crimea, however, shows that the Putin has chosen to forestall change with the help of foreign aggression. This portends not only a crisis in Ukraine but a dangerous future confrontation between rulers and ruled in the world’s second nuclear power.

David Satter is a senior fellow of the Hudson Institute and an adviser to Radio Liberty. He is the first U.S. correspondent to be expelled from Russia since the Cold War.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/02/ukraine-s-revolutionary-less-for-russia.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 2, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
Smart meters/phones/tv/, Smart everything, is a means of mass surveillance

that's called "mobile connectivity"!

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 4, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ask57bjVv5Q

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 5, 2014 - 11:28am PT
There is a lot we can do! First, learn about what is going on and communicate with everyone. They are only able to do all these things because the sheeple don't think about it. From the perspective of an individual, it seems overwhelming. But we still have the internet to communicate. They can't keep doing all these evil actions if people know what is happening and just stop supporting them. All their power comes from the people. People will not support these things if they understand what is being done with their power. They must keep people in the dark or all their power fades away. We don't need big protests or revolts, as they are prepared for that. It is enough to just stop supporting anything that is being done by the big banks, corporations, and governments. They make you think we can't live without them. That is only true if you believe in them. Our bodies and our planets have amazing healing abilities if given a chance.
WBraun

climber
Mar 5, 2014 - 11:36am PT
But we still have the internet to communicate.

That's why they want to regulate it, censored it and control the media.

When you have control of the media you have control of the general population and can keep the dissents in check.

The mainstream American media whores are all under the control of the established corporate tools .....
Yak-Chik

Trad climber
Phoenix
Mar 7, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
Another thing this Snowden deal should have beat into our heads is
that it’s essential to be paranoid.

So have you placed pieces of tape over all your cell phone and wifi
camera's yet?

Don't believe the single job perk that gets the legion of NSA analysts to
work on time?

It's to vouyeristically watch the coast to coast bathroom tittie show from
millions of naked women using their cell phones while getting ready for the commute?

No? Living under a rock still?
What legal recourse do you have if your wife is on their fav's list?


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/09/magazine/the-guardians-alan-rusbridger-its-essential-to-be-paranoid.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=1
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 8, 2014 - 11:27am PT
Titled "Snowden Says 'Many Other' Spy Programs Remain Secret, For Now"


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/03/07/snowden-says-many-other-spy-programs-remain-secret-for-now


"Exiled whistle-blower Edward Snowden told the European Parliament in testimony published Friday there are many more surprises in the classified cache of documents he downloaded and distributed last year.

But, Snowden said, he will allow the journalists with whom he’s shared the material to decide what to report.

“There are many other undisclosed programs that would impact EU citizens' rights, but I will leave the public interest determinations as to which of these may be safely disclosed to responsible journalists in coordination with government stakeholders,” he said...."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 11, 2014 - 01:16am PT
The suspicionless surveillance programs of the NSA, GCHQ, and so many others that we learned about over the last year endanger a number of basic rights which, in aggregate, constitute the foundation of liberal societies.


The first principle any inquiry must take into account is that despite extraordinary political pressure to do so, no western government has been able to present evidence showing that such programs are necessary. In the United States, the heads of our spying services once claimed that 54 terrorist attacks had been stopped by mass surveillance, but two independent White House reviews with access to the classified evidence on which this claim was founded concluded it was untrue, as did a Federal Court.

...There are indications of a growing disinterest among governments for ensuring intelligence activities are justified, proportionate, and above all accountable. We should be concerned about the precedent our actions set.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-van-buren/snowden-warns-us-of-the-d_b_4927205.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Snowden understands that the programs he revealed are fundamentally in conflict with the very basis of a just society; the two cannot co-exist. When the government turns its full resources to spy, without suspicion or reason or legitimate purpose, on its full citizenry (including the Senate, charged with in theory a check-and-balance role on the executive), a fundamental shift occurs: the Government is no longer of the People, it has made the People its enemy. The opposite follows by course. Deceiving your enemy is part of any war.

http://site.d66.nl/intveld/document/testimony_snowden/f=/vjhvekoen1ww.pdf

If even the US government, after determining mass surveillance is unlawful and unnecessary, continues to operate to engage in mass surveillance, we have a problem.
I consider the United States Government to be generally responsible, and I hope you will agree with me.
Accordingly, this begs the question many legislative bodies implicated in mass surveillance have sought to avoid: if even the US is willing to knowingly violate the rights of billions of innocents
--
and I say billions without exaggeration
--
for nothing more substantial than a
"potential" intelligence advantage that has never materialized, what are other governments going to do?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 14, 2014 - 03:03am PT
The NSA is a virus intent on subverting the internet

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/03/12/nsa-plans-infect-millions-computers-malware/
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 14, 2014 - 11:38am PT
The ACLU is now providing Snowden with legal representation.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 14, 2014 - 11:56pm PT
March 14, 2014 - NSA Posed as Facebook to Infect “Millions”
of Computers with Malware, in Latest Snowden Release.

“In ... QUANTUMHAND, the agency disguises itself as a fake
Facebook server. When a target attempts to log in to the social
media site, the NSA transmits malicious data packets that trick
the target’s computer into thinking they are being sent from the real
Facebook. By concealing its malware within what looks like
an ordinary Facebook page, the NSA is able to hack into the
targeted computer and covertly siphon out data from its hard drive.
A top-secret animation demonstrates the tactic in action.”

See NSA QUANTUMHAND Video and more at The Intercept.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/article/2014/03/12/nsa-plans-infect-millions-computers-malware/


Glenn Greenwald

How the NSA Plans to Infect ‘Millions’ of Computers with Malware
By Ryan Gallagher and Glenn Greenwald 12 Mar 2014, 9:19 AM EDT 558
Featured photo - How the NSA Plans to Infect ‘Millions’ of Computers with Malware One presentation outlines how the NSA performs “industrial-scale exploitation” of computer networks across the world.

Top-secret documents reveal that the National Security Agency is dramatically expanding its ability to covertly hack into computers on a mass scale by using automated systems that reduce the level of human oversight in the process.

The classified files – provided previously by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden – contain new details about groundbreaking surveillance technology the agency has developed to infect potentially millions of computers worldwide with malware “implants.” The clandestine initiative enables the NSA to break into targeted computers and to siphon out data from foreign Internet and phone networks.

The covert infrastructure that supports the hacking efforts operates from the agency’s headquarters in Fort Meade, Maryland, and from eavesdropping bases in the United Kingdom and Japan. GCHQ, the British intelligence agency, appears to have played an integral role in helping to develop the implants tactic.

In some cases the NSA has masqueraded as a fake Facebook server, using the social media site as a launching pad to infect a target’s computer and exfiltrate files from a hard drive. In others, it has sent out spam emails laced with the malware, which can be tailored to covertly record audio from a computer’s microphone and take snapshots with its webcam. The hacking systems have also enabled the NSA to launch cyberattacks by corrupting and disrupting file downloads or denying access to websites.

The implants being deployed were once reserved for a few hundred hard-to-reach targets, whose communications could not be monitored through traditional wiretaps. But the documents analyzed by The Intercept show how the NSA has aggressively accelerated its hacking initiatives in the past decade by computerizing some processes previously handled by humans. The automated system – codenamed TURBINE – is designed to “allow the current implant network to scale to large size (millions of implants) by creating a system that does automated control implants by groups instead of individually.”

In a top-secret presentation, dated August 2009, the NSA describes a pre-programmed part of the covert infrastructure called the “Expert System,” which is designed to operate “like the brain.” The system manages the applications and functions of the implants and “decides” what tools they need to best extract data from infected machines.

Mikko Hypponen, an expert in malware who serves as chief research officer at the Finnish security firm F-Secure, calls the revelations “disturbing.” The NSA’s surveillance techniques, he warns, could inadvertently be undermining the security of the Internet.

“When they deploy malware on systems,” Hypponen says, “they potentially create new vulnerabilities in these systems, making them more vulnerable for attacks by third parties.”

Hypponen believes that governments could arguably justify using malware in a small number of targeted cases against adversaries. But millions of malware implants being deployed by the NSA as part of an automated process, he says, would be “out of control.”

“That would definitely not be proportionate,” Hypponen says. “It couldn’t possibly be targeted and named. It sounds like wholesale infection and wholesale surveillance.”

The NSA declined to answer questions about its deployment of implants, pointing to a new presidential policy directive announced by President Obama. “As the president made clear on 17 January,” the agency said in a statement, “signals intelligence shall be collected exclusively where there is a foreign intelligence or counterintelligence purpose to support national and departmental missions, and not for any other purposes.”


“Owning the Net”

The NSA began rapidly escalating its hacking efforts a decade ago. In 2004, according to secret internal records, the agency was managing a small network of only 100 to 150 implants. But over the next six to eight years, as an elite unit called Tailored Access Operations (TAO) recruited new hackers and developed new malware tools, the number of implants soared to tens of thousands.

To penetrate foreign computer networks and monitor communications that it did not have access to through other means, the NSA wanted to go beyond the limits of traditional signals intelligence, or SIGINT, the agency’s term for the interception of electronic communications. Instead, it sought to broaden “active” surveillance methods – tactics designed to directly infiltrate a target’s computers or network devices.

In the documents, the agency describes such techniques as “a more aggressive approach to SIGINT” and says that the TAO unit’s mission is to “aggressively scale” these operations.

But the NSA recognized that managing a massive network of implants is too big a job for humans alone.

“One of the greatest challenges for active SIGINT/attack is scale,” explains the top-secret presentation from 2009. “Human ‘drivers’ limit ability for large-scale exploitation (humans tend to operate within their own environment, not taking into account the bigger picture).”

The agency’s solution was TURBINE. Developed as part of TAO unit, it is described in the leaked documents as an “intelligent command and control capability” that enables “industrial-scale exploitation.”

TURBINE was designed to make deploying malware much easier for the NSA’s hackers by reducing their role in overseeing its functions. The system would “relieve the user from needing to know/care about the details,” the NSA’s Technology Directorate notes in one secret document from 2009. “For example, a user should be able to ask for ‘all details about application X’ and not need to know how and where the application keeps files, registry entries, user application data, etc.”

In practice, this meant that TURBINE would automate crucial processes that previously had to be performed manually – including the configuration of the implants as well as surveillance collection, or “tasking,” of data from infected systems. But automating these processes was about much more than a simple technicality. The move represented a major tactical shift within the NSA that was expected to have a profound impact – allowing the agency to push forward into a new frontier of surveillance operations.

The ramifications are starkly illustrated in one undated top-secret NSA document, which describes how the agency planned for TURBINE to “increase the current capability to deploy and manage hundreds of Computer Network Exploitation (CNE) and Computer Network Attack (CNA) implants to potentially millions of implants.” (CNE mines intelligence from computers and networks; CNA seeks to disrupt, damage or destroy them.)

Eventually, the secret files indicate, the NSA’s plans for TURBINE came to fruition. The system has been operational in some capacity since at least July 2010, and its role has become increasingly central to NSA hacking operations.

Earlier reports based on the Snowden files indicate that the NSA has already deployed between 85,000 and 100,000 of its implants against computers and networks across the world, with plans to keep on scaling up those numbers.

The intelligence community’s top-secret “Black Budget” for 2013, obtained by Snowden, lists TURBINE as part of a broader NSA surveillance initiative named “Owning the Net.”

The agency sought $67.6 million in taxpayer funding for its Owning the Net program last year. Some of the money was earmarked for TURBINE, expanding the system to encompass “a wider variety” of networks and “enabling greater automation of computer network exploitation.”


Circumventing Encryption

The NSA has a diverse arsenal of malware tools, each highly sophisticated and customizable for different purposes.

One implant, codenamed UNITEDRAKE, can be used with a variety of “plug-ins” that enable the agency to gain total control of an infected computer.

An implant plug-in named CAPTIVATEDAUDIENCE, for example, is used to take over a targeted computer’s microphone and record conversations taking place near the device. Another, GUMFISH, can covertly take over a computer’s webcam and snap photographs. FOGGYBOTTOM records logs of Internet browsing histories and collects login details and passwords used to access websites and email accounts. GROK is used to log keystrokes. And SALVAGERABBIT exfiltrates data from removable flash drives that connect to an infected computer.

The implants can enable the NSA to circumvent privacy-enhancing encryption tools that are used to browse the Internet anonymously or scramble the contents of emails as they are being sent across networks. That’s because the NSA’s malware gives the agency unfettered access to a target’s computer before the user protects their communications with encryption.

It is unclear how many of the implants are being deployed on an annual basis or which variants of them are currently active in computer systems across the world.

Previous reports have alleged that the NSA worked with Israel to develop the Stuxnet malware, which was used to sabotage Iranian nuclear facilities. The agency also reportedly worked with Israel to deploy malware called Flame to infiltrate computers and spy on communications in countries across the Middle East.

According to the Snowden files, the technology has been used to seek out terror suspects as well as individuals regarded by the NSA as “extremist.” But the mandate of the NSA’s hackers is not limited to invading the systems of those who pose a threat to national security.

In one secret post on an internal message board, an operative from the NSA’s Signals Intelligence Directorate describes using malware attacks against systems administrators who work at foreign phone and Internet service providers. By hacking an administrator’s computer, the agency can gain covert access to communications that are processed by his company. “Sys admins are a means to an end,” the NSA operative writes.

The internal post – titled “I hunt sys admins” – makes clear that terrorists aren’t the only targets of such NSA attacks. Compromising a systems administrator, the operative notes, makes it easier to get to other targets of interest, including any “government official that happens to be using the network some admin takes care of.”

Similar tactics have been adopted by Government Communications Headquarters, the NSA’s British counterpart. As the German newspaper Der Spiegel reported in September, GCHQ hacked computers belonging to network engineers at Belgacom, the Belgian telecommunications provider.

The mission, codenamed “Operation Socialist,” was designed to enable GCHQ to monitor mobile phones connected to Belgacom’s network. The secret files deem the mission a “success,” and indicate that the agency had the ability to covertly access Belgacom’s systems since at least 2010.

Infiltrating cellphone networks, however, is not all that the malware can be used to accomplish. The NSA has specifically tailored some of its implants to infect large-scale network routers used by Internet service providers in foreign countries. By compromising routers – the devices that connect computer networks and transport data packets across the Internet – the agency can gain covert access to monitor Internet traffic, record the browsing sessions of users, and intercept communications.

Two implants the NSA injects into network routers, HAMMERCHANT and HAMMERSTEIN, help the agency to intercept and perform “exploitation attacks” against data that is sent through a Virtual Private Network, a tool that uses encrypted “tunnels” to enhance the security and privacy of an Internet session.

The implants also track phone calls sent across the network via Skype and other Voice Over IP software, revealing the username of the person making the call. If the audio of the VOIP conversation is sent over the Internet using unencrypted “Real-time Transport Protocol” packets, the implants can covertly record the audio data and then return it to the NSA for analysis.

But not all of the NSA’s implants are used to gather intelligence, the secret files show. Sometimes, the agency’s aim is disruption rather than surveillance. QUANTUMSKY, a piece of NSA malware developed in 2004, is used to block targets from accessing certain websites. QUANTUMCOPPER, first tested in 2008, corrupts a target’s file downloads. These two “attack” techniques are revealed on a classified list that features nine NSA hacking tools, six of which are used for intelligence gathering. Just one is used for “defensive” purposes – to protect U.S. government networks against intrusions.


“Mass exploitation potential”

Before it can extract data from an implant or use it to attack a system, the NSA must first install the malware on a targeted computer or network.

According to one top-secret document from 2012, the agency can deploy malware by sending out spam emails that trick targets into clicking a malicious link. Once activated, a “back-door implant” infects their computers within eight seconds.

There’s only one problem with this tactic, codenamed WILLOWVIXEN: According to the documents, the spam method has become less successful in recent years, as Internet users have become wary of unsolicited emails and less likely to click on anything that looks suspicious.

Consequently, the NSA has turned to new and more advanced hacking techniques. These include performing so-called “man-in-the-middle” and “man-on-the-side” attacks, which covertly force a user’s internet browser to route to NSA computer servers that try to infect them with an implant.

To perform a man-on-the-side attack, the NSA observes a target’s Internet traffic using its global network of covert “accesses” to data as it flows over fiber optic cables or satellites. When the target visits a website that the NSA is able to exploit, the agency’s surveillance sensors alert the TURBINE system, which then “shoots” data packets at the targeted computer’s IP address within a fraction of a second.

In one man-on-the-side technique, codenamed QUANTUMHAND, the agency disguises itself as a fake Facebook server. When a target attempts to log in to the social media site, the NSA transmits malicious data packets that trick the target’s computer into thinking they are being sent from the real Facebook. By concealing its malware within what looks like an ordinary Facebook page, the NSA is able to hack into the targeted computer and covertly siphon out data from its hard drive. A top-secret animation demonstrates the tactic in action.

The documents show that QUANTUMHAND became operational in October 2010, after being successfully tested by the NSA against about a dozen targets.

According to Matt Blaze, a surveillance and cryptography expert at the University of Pennsylvania, it appears that the QUANTUMHAND technique is aimed at targeting specific individuals. But he expresses concerns about how it has been covertly integrated within Internet networks as part of the NSA’s automated TURBINE system.

“As soon as you put this capability in the backbone infrastructure, the software and security engineer in me says that’s terrifying,” Blaze says.

“Forget about how the NSA is intending to use it. How do we know it is working correctly and only targeting who the NSA wants? And even if it does work correctly, which is itself a really dubious assumption, how is it controlled?”

In an email statement to The Intercept, Facebook spokesman Jay Nancarrow said the company had “no evidence of this alleged activity.” He added that Facebook implemented HTTPS encryption for users last year, making browsing sessions less vulnerable to malware attacks.

Nancarrow also pointed out that other services besides Facebook could have been compromised by the NSA. “If government agencies indeed have privileged access to network service providers,” he said, “any site running only [unencrypted] HTTP could conceivably have its traffic misdirected.”

A man-in-the-middle attack is a similar but slightly more aggressive method that can be used by the NSA to deploy its malware. It refers to a hacking technique in which the agency covertly places itself between computers as they are communicating with each other.

This allows the NSA not only to observe and redirect browsing sessions, but to modify the content of data packets that are passing between computers.

The man-in-the-middle tactic can be used, for instance, to covertly change the content of a message as it is being sent between two people, without either knowing that any change has been made by a third party. The same technique is sometimes used by criminal hackers to defraud people.

A top-secret NSA presentation from 2012 reveals that the agency developed a man-in-the-middle capability called SECONDDATE to “influence real-time communications between client and server” and to “quietly redirect web-browsers” to NSA malware servers called FOXACID. In October, details about the FOXACID system were reported by the Guardian, which revealed its links to attacks against users of the Internet anonymity service Tor.

But SECONDDATE is tailored not only for “surgical” surveillance attacks on individual suspects. It can also be used to launch bulk malware attacks against computers.

According to the 2012 presentation, the tactic has “mass exploitation potential for clients passing through network choke points.”

Blaze, the University of Pennsylvania surveillance expert, says the potential use of man-in-the-middle attacks on such a scale “seems very disturbing.” Such an approach would involve indiscriminately monitoring entire networks as opposed to targeting individual suspects.

“The thing that raises a red flag for me is the reference to ‘network choke points,’” he says. “That’s the last place that we should be allowing intelligence agencies to compromise the infrastructure – because that is by definition a mass surveillance technique.”

To deploy some of its malware implants, the NSA exploits security vulnerabilities in commonly used Internet browsers such as Mozilla Firefox and Internet Explorer.

The agency’s hackers also exploit security weaknesses in network routers and in popular software plugins such as Flash and Java to deliver malicious code onto targeted machines.

The implants can circumvent anti-virus programs, and the NSA has gone to extreme lengths to ensure that its clandestine technology is extremely difficult to detect. An implant named VALIDATOR, used by the NSA to upload and download data to and from an infected machine, can be set to self-destruct – deleting itself from an infected computer after a set time expires.

In many cases, firewalls and other security measures do not appear to pose much of an obstacle to the NSA. Indeed, the agency’s hackers appear confident in their ability to circumvent any security mechanism that stands between them and compromising a computer or network. “If we can get the target to visit us in some sort of web browser, we can probably own them,” an agency hacker boasts in one secret document. “The only limitation is the ‘how.’”


Covert Infrastructure

The TURBINE implants system does not operate in isolation.

It is linked to, and relies upon, a large network of clandestine surveillance “sensors” that the agency has installed at locations across the world.

The NSA’s headquarters in Maryland are part of this network, as are eavesdropping bases used by the agency in Misawa, Japan and Menwith Hill, England.

The sensors, codenamed TURMOIL, operate as a sort of high-tech surveillance dragnet, monitoring packets of data as they are sent across the Internet.

When TURBINE implants exfiltrate data from infected computer systems, the TURMOIL sensors automatically identify the data and return it to the NSA for analysis. And when targets are communicating, the TURMOIL system can be used to send alerts or “tips” to TURBINE, enabling the initiation of a malware attack.

The NSA identifies surveillance targets based on a series of data “selectors” as they flow across Internet cables. These selectors, according to internal documents, can include email addresses, IP addresses, or the unique “cookies” containing a username or other identifying information that are sent to a user’s computer by websites such as Google, Facebook, Hotmail, Yahoo, and Twitter.

Other selectors the NSA uses can be gleaned from unique Google advertising cookies that track browsing habits, unique encryption key fingerprints that can be traced to a specific user, and computer IDs that are sent across the Internet when a Windows computer crashes or updates.

What’s more, the TURBINE system operates with the knowledge and support of other governments, some of which have participated in the malware attacks.

Classification markings on the Snowden documents indicate that NSA has shared many of its files on the use of implants with its counterparts in the so-called Five Eyes surveillance alliance – the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia.

GCHQ, the British agency, has taken on a particularly important role in helping to develop the malware tactics. The Menwith Hill satellite eavesdropping base that is part of the TURMOIL network, located in a rural part of Northern England, is operated by the NSA in close cooperation with GCHQ.

Top-secret documents show that the British base – referred to by the NSA as “MHS” for Menwith Hill Station – is an integral component of the TURBINE malware infrastructure and has been used to experiment with implant “exploitation” attacks against users of Yahoo and Hotmail.

In one document dated 2010, at least five variants of the QUANTUM hacking method were listed as being “operational” at Menwith Hill. The same document also reveals that GCHQ helped integrate three of the QUANTUM malware capabilities – and test two others – as part of a surveillance system it operates codenamed INSENSER.

GCHQ cooperated with the hacking attacks despite having reservations about their legality. One of the Snowden files, previously disclosed by Swedish broadcaster SVT, revealed that as recently as April 2013, GCHQ was apparently reluctant to get involved in deploying the QUANTUM malware due to “legal/policy restrictions.” A representative from a unit of the British surveillance agency, meeting with an obscure telecommunications standards committee in 2010, separately voiced concerns that performing “active” hacking attacks for surveillance “may be illegal” under British law.

In response to questions from The Intercept, GCHQ refused to comment on its involvement in the covert hacking operations. Citing its boilerplate response to inquiries, the agency said in a statement that “all of GCHQ’s work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that our activities are authorized, necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous oversight.”

Whatever the legalities of the United Kingdom and United States infiltrating computer networks, the Snowden files bring into sharp focus the broader implications. Under cover of secrecy and without public debate, there has been an unprecedented proliferation of aggressive surveillance techniques. One of the NSA’s primary concerns, in fact, appears to be that its clandestine tactics are now being adopted by foreign rivals, too.

“Hacking routers has been good business for us and our 5-eyes partners for some time,” notes one NSA analyst in a top-secret document dated December 2012. “But it is becoming more apparent that other nation states are honing their skillz and joining the scene.”
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 15, 2014 - 02:47am PT
Just remember that Greenwald has vowed to cause as much damage to the US as possible.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 15, 2014 - 03:40am PT
Greenwald has a pretty good track record. For now, I trust him.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 15, 2014 - 09:58am PT
Greenwald has never "vowed to damage the US", so we needn't remember what never happened. I challenge Ken M to produce the Greenwald quote in its entirety with a source that backs up this false assertion.

Quite to the contrary - Snowden carefully selected his leaks to avoid damaging US interests, bur rather to expose illegal, unconstitutional, and unethical behavior on the part of our intelligence services. The evidence - for those who bother to actually read what it comprises, is damning.

Snowden did it solely to make America aware of what was going on so the country could have this conversation. He had no other agenda, and there is zero evidence that indicates that he did.

There is a huge propaganda/smear campaign about Snowden, as there was against Ellsberg and all high profile whistleblowers. It's disappointing to see posters here parrot bits of that campaign long after those bits have been debunked.

Such is the power and danger of misinformation.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
Greenwald has never "vowed to damage the US", so we needn't remember what never happened. I challenge Ken M to produce the Greenwald quote in its entirety with a source that backs up this false assertion.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10251337/Greenwald-UK-will-be-sorry-for-detaining-partner.html

And you seem to have a selective memory about the traitor Snowden: How he dumped hundreds of thousands of documents into the public that he could not have possibly read.....that the NYTimes and other actual journalism sites redacted before they published, because they thought that inappropriate stuff was contained within.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Nothing in that link supports your statement.

So there's that.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 18, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
Tvash

Ken M is a tool in this case. He keeps on repeating that Greenwald has threatened to "cause as much damage to the US as possible". To Ken M "will be sorry for" and "continue to publish NSA secrets" is the same thing as "cause as much damage to the US as possible".

I wonder how anybody with an academic education is able to reason this way.

That said: Greenwald's statement was unnecessary and unwise. He must have known that tools like Ken M would twist the words and use them in their spinning of "half-truths".
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
Ken M is one of millions of parrots right wing PR campaigns depend on to do exactly what he's doing. He's a type, and a common one. It's more important to shout the party line than to be accurate or truthful. As Fox well knows, you publish the lie on page one, retract on page 10 (actually, they never retract - you don't need to with pure propaganda). This is today's anti-liberalism at work. It's easier to order off a fast food menu that learn to cook yourself. Guys like Ken M get the instant emotional stroke of liberal bashing without putting out much if any effort. Spoon fed, all the way.

The funny thing is, Snowden is far from being a 'liberal'. He's far more of a libertarian - a highly ethical, really smart libertarian. He also happens to be a patriotic as it gets. The magnitude of the sacrifice he just made so this country could simply have this conversation speaks volumes there.

I've heard Greenwald speak. He's a straight shooter and doesn't mince words. That's just his style. It's refreshing, actually. It's also the very same trait the Right loves about its spokespeople - TELL IT LIKE IT IS! - who, unlike Greenwald, tend to be ethically challenged, fast and loose with their facts, in some cases, dumb as a bag of donuts.

In the end, it wouldn't matter how Greenwald worded anything. Big Brother's fanbois will broadcast the inevitable smear campaign regardless.
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 18, 2014 - 03:32pm PT
Members of the Church Committee publish open letter to Congress:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/03/us-intelligence-oversight-group-from-1975-says-things-are-way-worse-now/
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 18, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
If we take the long view of society, that is, over decades or centuries, the very real risk of becoming an Orwellian society outweigh the risks of compromising the position of the current government in conflicts with other countries or corporate/political/terrorist organizations. "We the people" are not the same as "we the government." We the people elect a government to represent our interests, and in spirit it is our job as Americans to prioritize what is right for the people rather than what is right for the elected government if those two causes diverge. That is how America was created in the first place. The government (England) wasn't meeting the needs of the people (or at least not meeting the needs of American corporations that influenced the American people to feel like their needs weren't being met).

To that end, I believe it is incisive, prescient, self-sacrificing, and heroic to take a personal risk for something that seems esoteric to many, yet is at the very heart of our society's future. Whatever personal gain or recognition Snowden might have hoped to gain, if any, is not worth the difficulties he will face. He was probably smart enough to know that before this started. To really dig into this, just think about who has something to gain and who has something to lose in the discussion of these issues, the revelation of secrets.

It's really a pandora's box though... we all have something to gain and to lose by the revelation of secrets. But if the US suddenly "took the moral high road" on this stuff, then the US might cease to exist in a few years or decades after being over-run by other countries that don't have any moral qualms about doing it. Basic game theory operating here- it just takes the probability of any group other than the US government exploiting these technologies (which is almost certain), and the US basically has no strategic choice but to respond or stop existing. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

The challenge is how we as a society authorize our government to keep us on a path of democratic ideals and life that we prefer, between two opposing forces that threaten these:
1) Foreign powers that would like to topple US and send us back to the stone age, Sharia law, etc.
2) US shadow/hidden government (powerful people? corporations?) that uses people's fear of #1 to give up basic freedoms and societal expectations to give more power to an emergent elite/ruling class whilst the remainder of society lives under constant surveillance, and in complete fear and powerlessness.

The tightrope of democracy....

Whatever crimes Snowden committed against USA government, and whatever real risk he has exposed to the people of the USA, I would hope that the service he has done to humanity is offset when his punishments are handed out. And in any case, I am grateful for his personal sacrifice, that he has faced punishment so that I don't have to. He is a soldier of humanity, and I am grateful for the life I can live because of people like him, just like I am grateful for the life I can live because of the soldiers of the US military.

In an ideal world we wouldn't need soldiers, but this world isn't ideal. There is always room for soldiers to be better deployed, for smarter decisions to be made, but I don't know enough of the details to second-guess any decisions. It's easy to point out mistakes in something, much harder to actually fix it or even try.

couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 18, 2014 - 07:06pm PT
Tvrash said:
"Ken M is one of millions of parrots right wing PR campaigns depend on to do exactly what he's doing. He's a type, and a common one. It's more important to shout the party line than to be accurate or truthful. As Fox well knows, you publish the lie on page one, retract on page 10 (actually, they never retract - you don't need to with pure propaganda). This is today's anti-liberalism at work. It's easier to order off a fast food menu that learn to cook yourself. Guys like Ken M get the instant emotional stroke of liberal bashing without putting out much if any effort. Spoon fed, all the way. "

Bullsh#t, Ken M is more liberal than you, and as a Doctor, probably more intelligent. He believes differently than you. Which is what you have and offer us, your belief what you think the truth is. I personally think that you are correct in the unbelievable bashing and outright lies put out in the world by the Nancy Pelosi types to try to sway the Ken M types. It happens.




Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 18, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
Hey Bill, how's the anti-Mexican rant going for ya?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 19, 2014 - 12:47am PT
Thanks, Couch, very fair.

He also happens to be a patriotic as it gets. (Snowden)

yep, disclosing diplomatic cables that had nothing to do with anything illegal, that revealed nothing illegal, but damaged the relations between the US and other countries.

very patriotic. sort of what'd you'd expect of a new-born Russian. I notice he has nothing to say about Ukraine, but I'm sure he wouldn't want to upset his masters.

Guess I better tear up my ACLU card and re-register as a Tea Bagger.

Ha!

As a journalist myself, I read and watch a professional journalists words with great care. Unlike most people, their words contain messages at several levels. They are able to threaten, without making overt threats.

This is actually one of the great skills of the Repugs, and they are good at sending out things that have meanings at several levsls.

For example, their bumper stickers: Obama Psalm 108:8

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2009/11/bumper-stickers-for-psalm-1098----a-wrong-hearted-prayer-for-obama/1#.UykhLajlnN4
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2014 - 06:44am PT
so much of what Ken M has recently posted is so demonstrably false and has been rehashed so many times throughout this thread that it really isn't worth the effort.

people who want to believe, without any current evidence, that snowden acted with anything but patriotic intentions will continue to do so.

and people who want to believe that snowden is a saint, although equally as impossible to know at this point, will also continue to do so.

but this comment of Ken M's takes the cake and i can't help but get sucked in:

"yep, disclosing diplomatic cables that had nothing to do with anything illegal, that revealed nothing illegal, but damaged the relations between the US and other countries."

what in the actual f*#k?

have you really confused snowden's very careful release of nsa and surveillance related documents to a handful of selected journalists with assange's carpet bombing style release of diplomatic cables to the public?

given the level of bullshit in some of your other comments, it wouldn't surprise me if you were speaking with authoritah while being so fundamentally misinformed/confused.

regardless this focusing of the discussion on snowden is such a complete waste of time.

it's a bit like being served rotten food at a restaurant and then getting angry at the waiter...
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 19, 2014 - 11:39am PT
]so much of what Ken M has recently posted is so demonstrably false and has been rehashed so many times throughout this thread that it really isn't worth the effort.

So what you are saying is that since you cannot refute anything that I say, you'll simply attack me personally. I can understand why you would not want to talk about Snowden in the Snowden thread. Far too confusing.

but this comment of Ken M's takes the cake and i can't help but get sucked in:

"yep, disclosing diplomatic cables that had nothing to do with anything illegal, that revealed nothing illegal, but damaged the relations between the US and other countries."

what in the actual f*#k?

have you really confused snowden's very careful release of nsa and surveillance related documents to a handful of selected journalists with assange's carpet bombing style release of diplomatic cables to the public?

Assange IS the most complicit "selected journalist", chosen by SNOWDEN. They clearly communicated on the carpet bombing, and you've read NOT ONE WORD by Snowden criticizing or being remorseful of the carpet bombing.

Doh!

I DO like that you acknowledge the inappropriateness of Assange's actions. We're getting somewhere.

regardless this focusing of the discussion on snowden is such a complete waste of time.

I wonder just how stupid you are? Have you not READ the TITLE of this discussion thread??? It is ABOUT SNOWDEN. If you want to discuss something else, go to what must be the more appropriate for you kiddie porn threads.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Mar 19, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Assange has nothing to do with Snowden's whistleblowing.

Snowden released documents to Greenwald (Guardian, Poitras (filmmaker), and Gellman (Wa Post).

That Snowden hasn't commented on Assange, the Ukraine, gravity waves, or the health benefits of I Can't Believe Its Not Butter! is, of course, irrelevant to anything.

If you're a journalist, Ken, you're a shitty one, at least if you're treatment of this topic is any indication.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 30, 2014 - 01:37am PT
http://www.ted.com/talks/edward_snowden_here_s_how_we_take_back_the_internet

Appearing by telepresence robot, Edward Snowden speaks at TED2014 about surveillance and Internet freedom. The right to data privacy, he suggests, is not a partisan issue, but requires a fundamental rethink of the role of the internet in our lives — and the laws that protect it. "Your rights matter,” he says, "because you never know when you're going to need them." Chris Anderson interviews, with special guest Tim Berners-Lee.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Mar 30, 2014 - 10:04am PT


Edward Snowden = HERO
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Mar 30, 2014 - 03:08pm PT



As time progresses; it will get worse. We have no voice, any one that tries to discredits those in charge suddenly disappear. They have control, we do not. They spread disinformation and there is really no way to stop them.

They make up things, change the story line so people will think it will not happen. But that’s what they want, that’s what they do: Propaganda not for the few but for the masses.

But in the meantime: some reading, writing and arithmetic.

http://www.examiner.com/topic/gchq/articles?page=1

http://www.examiner.com/article/leaked-nsa-document-confirms-online-covert-deception-involves-ufos

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/voices/

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1021430-the-art-of-deception-training-for-a-new.html#document/p1

*above http note: will breakdown PowerPoint into the slides, read text or hit 50 pages.

The Art of Deception: Training for a New Generation of Online Covert Operations
Leaked NSA document confirms online covert deception involves UFOs
[written a few years back but good PowerPoint presentation on how they think: on the text will not download so read it 50 page.

The “Five Eyes” FVEY but understand soon to be 13. “GCHQ” UK’s CIA.
As for facebook, internet;

http://www.examiner.com/article/snowden-government-infiltrates-websites-uses-social-media-to-deceive-destroy


Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Mar 31, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
TFPU! Tom is adding great value to the thread ...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Apr 15, 2014 - 01:48pm PT

Guardian and Washington Post win Pulitzer prize for NSA revelations
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/apr/14/guardian-washington-post-pulitzer-nsa-revelations

The Pulitzer committee praised the Guardian for its "revelation of widespread secret surveillance by the National Security Agency, helping through aggressive reporting to spark a debate about the relationship between the government and the public over issues of security and privacy".

Keep up the good work...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 15, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
We knew that years before "Snowden" became a verb Dingus.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 4, 2014 - 01:21am PT
John W. Whitehead, Rutherford Institute, www.rutherford.org

https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/putting_big_brother_in_the_drivers_seat_v2v_transmitters_black_boxes_d

The United States pretends to be a home of freedom and democracy. In fact, the US is rapidly degenerating into a police state and a worse dystopia than George Orwell imagined in his book, 1984.

John W. Whitehead describes below the prison that is being constructed for all of us. This prison is the work of many of our fellow citizens including scientists and entrepreneurs who have gained fame and fortune creating a prison for mankind. What were they thinking as they threw their energy and their lives into constructing a police state dystopia?

Putting Big Brother in the Driver’s Seat: V2V Transmitters, Black Boxes & Drones

By John W. Whitehead

“It’s a future where you don’t forget anything…In this new future you’re never lost…We will know your position down to the foot and down to the inch over time…Your car will drive itself, it’s a bug that cars were invented before computers…you’re never lonely…you’re never bored…you’re never out of ideas… We can suggest where you go next, who to meet, what to read…What’s interesting about this future is that it’s for the average person, not just the elites.”—Google CEO Eric Schmidt on his vision of the future

Time to buckle up your seatbelts, folks. You’re in for a bumpy ride.

We’re hurtling down a one-way road toward the Police State at mind-boggling speeds, the terrain is getting more treacherous by the minute, and we’ve passed all the exit ramps. From this point forward, there is no turning back, and the signpost ahead reads “Danger.”

Indeed, as I document in my book A Government of Wolves: The Emerging American Police State, we’re about to enter a Twilight Zone of sorts, one marked by drones, smart phones, GPS devices, smart TVs, social media, smart meters, surveillance cameras, facial recognition software, online banking, license plate readers and driverless cars—all part of the interconnected technological spider’s web that is life in the American police state, and every new gadget pulls us that much deeper into the sticky snare.

In this Brave New World awaiting us, there will be no communication not spied upon, no movement untracked, no thought unheard. In other words, there will be nowhere to run and nowhere to hide.

We’re on the losing end of a technological revolution that has already taken hostage our computers, our phones, our finances, our entertainment, our shopping, our appliances, and now, it’s focused its sights on our cars. As if the government wasn’t already able to track our movements on the nation’s highways and byways by way of satellites, GPS devices, and real-time traffic cameras, government officials are now pushing to require that all new vehicles come installed with black box recorders and vehicle-to-vehicle (V2V) communications, ostensibly to help prevent crashes.

Yet strip away the glib Orwellian doublespeak, and what you will find is that these black boxes and V2V transmitters, which will not only track a variety of data, including speed, direction, location, the number of miles traveled, and seatbelt use, but will also transmit this data to other drivers, including the police, are little more than Trojan Horses, stealth attacks on our last shreds of privacy, sold to us as safety measures for the sake of the greater good, all the while poised to wreak havoc on our lives.
Black boxes and V2V transmitters are just the tip of the iceberg, though. The 2015 Corvette Stingray will be outfitted with a performance data recorder which “uses a camera mounted on the windshield and a global positioning receiver to record speed, gear selection and brake force,” but also provides a recording of the driver’s point of view as well as recording noises made inside the car. As journalist Jaclyn Trop reports for the New York Times, “Drivers can barely make a left turn, put on their seatbelts or push 80 miles an hour without their actions somehow, somewhere being tracked or recorded.” Indeed, as Jim Farley, Vice President of Marketing and Sales for Ford Motor Company all but admitted, corporations and government officials already have a pretty good sense of where you are at all times: “We know everyone who breaks the law, we know when you’re doing it. We have GPS in your car, so we know what you’re doing.”

Now that the government and its corporate partners-in-crime know where you’re going and how fast you’re going when in your car, the next big hurdle will be to know how many passengers are in your car, what contraband might be in your car (and that will largely depend on whatever is outlawed at the moment, which could be anything from Sudafed cold medicine to goat cheese), what you’re saying and exactly what you’re doing within the fiberglass and steel walls of your vehicle. That’s where drones come in.

Once drones take to the skies en masse in 2015, there will literally be no place where government agencies and private companies cannot track your movements. These drones will be equipped with cameras that provide a live video feed, as well as heat sensors, radar and thermal imaging devices capable of seeing through the walls of your car. Some will be capable of peering at figures from 20,000 feet up and 25 miles away. They will be outfitted with infrared cameras and radar which will pierce through the darkness. They can also keep track of 65 persons of interest at once. Some drones are already capable of hijacking Wi-Fi networks and intercepting electronic communications such as text messages. The Army has developed drones with facial recognition software, as well as drones that can complete a target-and-kill mission without any human instruction or interaction. These are the ultimate killing and spying machines. There will also be drones armed with “less-lethal” weaponry, including bean bag guns and tasers.

And of course all of this information, your every movement—whether you make a wrong move, or appear to be doing something suspicious, even if you don’t do anything suspicious, the information of your whereabouts, including what stores and offices you visit, what political rallies you attend, and what people you meet—will be tracked, recorded and streamed to a government command center, where it will be saved and easily accessed at a later date.

By the time you add self-driving cars into the futuristic mix, equipped with computers that know where you want to go before you do, you’ll be so far down the road to Steven Spielberg’s vision of the future as depicted in Minority Report that privacy and autonomy will be little more than distant mirages in your rearview mirror. The film, set in 2054 and based on a short story by Philip K. Dick, offered movie audiences a special effect-laden techno-vision of a futuristic world in which the government is all-seeing, all-knowing and all-powerful. And if you dare to step out of line, dark-clad police SWAT teams will bring you under control.

Mind you, while critics were dazzled by the technological wonders displayed in Minority Report, few dared to consider the consequences of a world in which Big Brother is, literally and figuratively, in the driver’s seat. Even the driverless cars in Minority Report answer to the government’s (and its corporate cohorts’) bidding.

Likewise, we are no longer autonomous in our own cars. Rather, we are captive passengers being chauffeured about by a robotic mind which answers to the government and its corporate henchmen. Soon it won’t even matter whether we are seated behind the wheel of our own vehicles, because it will be advertisers and government agents calling the shots.

Case in point: devices are now being developed for European cars that would allow police to stop a car remotely, ostensibly to end police chases. Google is partnering with car manufacturers in order to integrate apps and other smartphone-like technology into vehicles, in order to alert drivers to deals and offers at nearby businesses. As Patrick Lin, professor of Stanford’s School of Engineering, warns, in a world where third-party advertisers and data collectors control a good deal of the content we see on a daily basis, we may one day literally be driven to businesses not because we wanted to go there, but because someone paid for us to be taken there.

Rod Serling, creator of the beloved sci fi series Twilight Zone and one of the most insightful commentators on human nature, once observed, “We’re developing a new citizenry. One that will be very selective about cereals and automobiles, but won’t be able to think.”

Indeed, not only are we developing a new citizenry incapable of thinking for themselves, we’re also instilling in them a complete and utter reliance on the government and its corporate partners to do everything for them—tell them what to eat, what to wear, how to think, what to believe, how long to sleep, who to vote for, whom to associate with, and on and on.

In this way, we have created a welfare state, a nanny state, a police state, a surveillance state, an electronic concentration camp—call it what you will, the meaning is the same: in our quest for less personal responsibility, a greater sense of security, and no burdensome obligations to each other or to future generations, we have created a society in which we have no true freedom.

Pandora’s Box has been opened and there’s no way to close it. As Rod Serling prophesied in a Commencement Address at the University of Southern California in March 17, 1970:

“It’s simply a national acknowledgement that in any kind of priority, the needs of human beings must come first. Poverty is here and now. Hunger is here and now. Racial tension is here and now. Pollution is here and now. These are the things that scream for a response. And if we don’t listen to that scream – and if we don’t respond to it – we may well wind up sitting amidst our own rubble, looking for the truck that hit us – or the bomb that pulverized us. Get the license number of whatever it was that destroyed the dream. And I think we will find that the vehicle was registered in our own name.”

You can add the following to that list of needs requiring an urgent response: Police abuse is here and now. Surveillance is here and now. Imperial government is here and now. Yet while the vehicle bearing down upon us is indeed registered in our own name, we’ve allowed Big Brother to get behind the wheel, and there’s no way to put the brakes on this runaway car.
Psilocyborg

climber
May 4, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
you ever think all you conservatives and liberals are played against each other?

Ya know the old united we stand, divided we fall?

Sometimes I feel you are all unsuspecting puppets on a string playing out an imaginary drama. And all the while the world turns and nothing ever changes....except what you fools argue about

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
May 4, 2014 - 02:01pm PT


. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the GOP strategy of cutting taxes but not spending, and everything to do with old farts like you taking all the cheese. A-hole ;).

Actually, it has everything to do with the GOP strategy of cutting taxes and continuing to spend, then getting the Government to cover their asses when their investment pyramid schemes finally dry up.

Us old farts earned every cent that we now get by Y'know... actually holding down jobs And paying taxes instead of being trust fund babies.
Psilocyborg

climber
May 4, 2014 - 03:27pm PT
So why I don't buy into the while new world order nonsense is, there is no feasible end game scenario. They do all these elaborate things and for what?

"Internet misinformation campaigns"

This.

What makes you think all this new world order buisness isn't a misinformation campaign covering something even more sinister, or perhaps more benign?

How do you decide what is misinformation and what is truth?

The internet has made it so there is NO truth anymore....or more realistically...all information is truth.

I laugh when people talk up the internet like it is this great thing that is "gonna get the truth out there man". Bullsh#t. What it does is gets any crazy thought running through any random persons head....and polish it enough and repeat it enough and it becomes truth. It becomes history. Same as it ever was......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
May 17, 2014 - 03:16pm PT

Everyone should know just how much the government lied to defend the NSA.

A web of deception has finally been untangled: the Justice Department got the US supreme court to dismiss a case that could have curtailed the NSA's dragnet. Why?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/17/government-lies-nsa-justice-department-supreme-court

The ACLU argued before the supreme court that the Fisa Amendments Act – one of the two main laws used by the NSA to conduct mass surveillance – was unconstitutional.

In a sharply divided opinion, the supreme court ruled, 5-4, that the case should be dismissed because the plaintiffs didn't have "standing" – in other words, that the ACLU couldn't prove with near-certainty that their clients, which included journalists and human rights advocates, were targets of surveillance, so they couldn't challenge the law. As the New York Times noted this week, the court relied on two claims by the Justice Department to support their ruling: 1) that the NSA would only get the content of Americans' communications without a warrant when they are targeting a foreigner abroad for surveillance, and 2) that the Justice Department would notify criminal defendants who have been spied on under the Fisa Amendments Act, so there exists some way to challenge the law in court.

It turns out that neither of those statements were true – but it took Snowden's historic whistleblowing to prove it.


couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 23, 2014 - 02:51pm PT
But the ACLU still doesn't have "standing" despite the decision being founded on faulty evidence? hmmm


Todays tidbit from Fars News.
"American NSA Recording Every Cell Phone Call in Bahamas


TEHRAN (FNA)- The National Security Agency (NSA) is secretly intercepting, recording, and archiving the audio of virtually every cell phone conversation on the island nation of the Bahamas.

According to documents provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the surveillance is part of a top-secret system – code-named SOMALGET – that was implemented without the knowledge or consent of the Bahamian government.

Instead, the agency appears to have used access legally obtained in cooperation with the US Drug Enforcement Administration to open a backdoor to the country’s cellular telephone network, enabling it to covertly record and store the “full-take audio” of every mobile call made to, from and within the Bahamas – and to replay those calls for up to a month, Ryan Devereaux, Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras said in a report released by ICH.

SOMALGET is part of a broader NSA program called MYSTIC, which The Intercept has learned is being used to secretly monitor the telecommunications systems of the Bahamas and several other countries, including Mexico, the Philippines, and Kenya. But while MYSTIC scrapes mobile networks for so-called “metadata” – information that reveals the time, source, and destination of calls – SOMALGET is a cutting-edge tool that enables the NSA to vacuum up and store the actual content of every conversation in an entire country.

All told, the NSA is using MYSTIC to gather personal data on mobile calls placed in countries with a combined population of more than 250 million people. And according to classified documents, the agency is seeking funding to export the sweeping surveillance capability elsewhere.

The program raises profound questions about the nature and extent of American surveillance abroad. The US intelligence community routinely justifies its massive spying efforts by citing the threats to national security posed by global terrorism and unpredictable rival nations. But the NSA documents indicate that SOMALGET has been deployed in the Bahamas to locate “international narcotics traffickers and special-interest alien smugglers” – traditional law-enforcement concerns, but a far cry from derailing terror plots or intercepting weapons of mass destruction.

“The Bahamas is a stable democracy that shares democratic principles, personal freedoms, and rule of law with the United States,” the State Department concluded in a crime and safety report published last year. “There is little to no threat facing Americans from domestic (Bahamian) terrorism, war, or civil unrest.”

By targeting the Bahamas’ entire mobile network, the NSA is intentionally collecting and retaining intelligence on millions of people who have not been accused of any crime or terrorist activity. Nearly five million Americans visit the country each year, and many prominent US citizens keep homes there, including Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa), Bill Gates, and Oprah Winfrey.

In addition, the program is a serious – and perhaps illegal – abuse of the access to international phone networks that other countries willingly grant the United States for legitimate law-enforcement surveillance. If the NSA is using the Drug Enforcement Administration’s relationship to the Bahamas as a cover for secretly recording the entire country’s mobile phone calls, it could imperil the longstanding tradition of international law enforcement cooperation that the United States enjoys with its allies.

The NSA refused to comment on the program, but said in a statement that “the implication that NSA’s foreign intelligence collection is arbitrary and unconstrained is false.” The agency also insisted that it follows procedures to “protect the privacy of US people” whose communications are “incidentally collected.”

Informed about the NSA’s spying, neither the Bahamian prime minister’s office nor the country’s national security minister had any comment. The embassies of Mexico, Kenya, and the Philippines did not respond to phone messages and emails.

In March, The Washington Post revealed that the NSA had developed the capability to record and store an entire nation’s phone traffic for 30 days. The Post reported that the capacity was a feature of MYSTIC, which it described as a “voice interception program” that is fully operational in one country and proposed for activation in six others. (The Post also referred to NSA documents suggesting that MYSTIC was pulling metadata in some of those countries.) Citing government requests, the paper declined to name any of those countries.

The Intercept has confirmed that as of 2013, the NSA was actively using MYSTIC to gather cell-phone metadata in five countries, and was intercepting voice data in two of them. Documents show that the NSA has been generating intelligence reports from MYSTIC surveillance in the Bahamas, Mexico, Kenya, the Philippines, and one other country, which The Intercept is not naming in response to specific, credible concerns that doing so could lead to increased violence. The more expansive full-take recording capability has been deployed in both the Bahamas and the unnamed country.

MYSTIC was established in 2009 by the NSA’s Special Source Operations division, which works with corporate partners to conduct surveillance. Documents in the Snowden archive describe it as a “program for embedded collection systems overtly installed on target networks, predominantly for the collection and processing of wireless/mobile communications networks.”

If an entire nation’s cell-phone calls were a menu of TV shows, MYSTIC would be a cable programming guide showing which channels offer which shows, and when. SOMALGET would be the DVR that automatically records every show on every channel and stores them for a month. MYSTIC provides the access; SOMALGET provides the massive amounts of storage needed to archive all those calls so that analysts can listen to them at will after the fact. According to one NSA document, SOMALGET is “deployed against entire networks” in the Bahamas and the second country, and processes “over 100 million call events per day.”

SOMALGET’s capabilities are further detailed in a May 2012 memo written by an official in the NSA’s International Crime and Narcotics division. The memo hails the “great success” the NSA’s drugs and crime unit has enjoyed through its use of the program, and boasts about how “beneficial” the collection and recording of every phone call in a given nation can be to intelligence analysts.

Rather than simply making “tentative analytic conclusions derived from metadata,” the memo notes, analysts can follow up on hunches by going back in time and listening to phone calls recorded during the previous month. Such “retrospective retrieval” means that analysts can figure out what targets were saying even when the calls occurred before the targets were identified. “(W)e buffer certain calls that MAY be of foreign intelligence value for a sufficient period to permit a well-informed decision on whether to retrieve and return specific audio content,” the NSA official reported.

“There is little reason,” the official added, that SOMALGET could not be expanded to more countries, as long as the agency provided adequate engineering, coordination and hardware. There is no indication in the documents that the NSA followed up on the official’s enthusiasm.

The documents don’t spell out how the NSA has been able to tap the phone calls of an entire country. But one memo indicates that SOMALGET data is covertly acquired under the auspices of “lawful intercepts” made through Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) “accesses”– legal wiretaps of foreign phone networks that the DEA requests as part of international law enforcement cooperation.

When US drug agents need to tap a phone of a suspected drug kingpin in another country, they call up their counterparts and ask them set up an intercept. To facilitate those taps, many nations – including the Bahamas – have hired contractors who install and maintain so-called lawful intercept equipment on their telecommunications. With SOMALGET, it appears that the NSA has used the access those contractors developed to secretly mine the country’s entire phone system for “signals intelligence” –recording every mobile call in the country. “Host countries,” the document notes, “are not aware of NSA’s SIGINT collection.”

“Lawful intercept systems engineer communications vulnerabilities into networks, forcing the carriers to weaken,” says Christopher Soghoian, the principal technologist for the American Civil Liberties Union. “Host governments really should be thinking twice before they accept one of these Trojan horses.”

The DEA has long been in a unique position to help the NSA gain backdoor access to foreign phone networks. “DEA has close relationships with foreign government counterparts and vetted foreign partners,” the manager of the NSA’s drug-war efforts reported in a 2004 memo. Indeed, with more than 80 international offices, the DEA is one of the most widely deployed US agencies around the globe.

But what many foreign governments fail to realize is that US drug agents don’t confine themselves to simply fighting narcotics traffickers. “DEA is actually one of the biggest spy operations there is,” says Finn Selander, a former DEA special agent who works with the drug-reform advocacy group Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. “Our mandate is not just drugs. We collect intelligence.”

What’s more, Selander adds, the NSA has aided the DEA for years on surveillance operations. “On our reports, there’s drug information and then there’s non-drug information,” he says. “So countries let us in because they don’t view us, really, as a spy organization.”

Selander’s first-hand experience is echoed in the 2004 memo by the manager of the NSA’s drug-war efforts, which was titled “DEA: The Other Warfighter.” The DEA and the NSA “enjoy a vibrant two-way information-sharing relationship,” the memo observes, and cooperate so closely on counter-narcotics and counterterrorism that there is a risk of “blurring the lines between the two missions.”

Still, the ability to record and replay the phone calls of an entire country appears to be a relatively new weapon in the NSA’s arsenal. None of the half-dozen former US law enforcement officials interviewed by The Intercept said they had ever heard of a surveillance operation quite like the NSA’s Bahamas collection.

“I’m completely unfamiliar with the program,” says Joel Margolis, a former DEA official who is now executive vice president of government affairs for Subsentio, a Colorado-based company that installs lawful intercepts for telecommunications providers. “I used to work in DEA’s office of chief counsel, and I was their lead specialist on lawful surveillance matters. I wasn’t aware of anything like this.”

For nearly two decades, telecom providers in the United States have been legally obligated under the 1994 Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act to build their networks with wiretapping capabilities, providing law enforcement agencies with access to more efficient, centrally managed surveillance.

Since CALEA’s passage, many countries have adopted similar measures, making it easier to gather telecommunications intelligence for international investigations. A 2001 working group for the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime went so far as to urge countries to consider permitting foreign law enforcement agencies to initiate international wiretaps directly from within their own territories.

The process for setting up lawful intercepts in foreign countries is largely the same as in the United States. “Law enforcement issues a warrant or other authorization, a carrier or a carrier’s agent responds to the warrant by provisioning the intercept, and the information is sent in sort of a one-way path to the law enforcement agency,” says Marcus Thomas, a former FBI assistant director who now serves as chief technology officer for Subsentio.

When US drug agents wiretap a country’s phone networks, they must comply with the host country’s laws and work alongside their law enforcement counterparts. “The way DEA works with our allies – it could be Bahamas or Jamaica or anywhere – the host country has to invite us,” says Margolis. “We come in and provide the support, but they do the intercept themselves.”

The Bahamas’ Listening Devices Act requires all wiretaps to be authorized in writing either by the minister of national security or the police commissioner in consultation with the attorney general. The individuals to be targeted must be named. Under the nation’s Data Protection Act, personal data may only be “collected by means which are both lawful and fair in the circumstances of the case.” The office of the Bahamian data protection commissioner, which administers the act, said in a statement that it “was not aware of the matter you raise.”

Countries like the Bahamas don’t install lawful intercepts on their own. With the adoption of international standards, a thriving market has emerged for private firms that are contracted by foreign governments to install and maintain lawful intercept equipment. Currently valued at more than $128 mln, the global market for private interception services is expected to skyrocket to more than $970 mln within the next four years, according to a 2013 report from the research firm Markets and Markets.

“Most telecom hardware vendors will have some solutions for legal interception,” says a former mobile telecommunications engineer who asked not to be named because he is currently working for the British government. “That’s pretty much because legal interception is a requirement if you’re going to operate a mobile phone network.”

The proliferation of private contractors has apparently provided the NSA with direct access to foreign phone networks. According to the documents, MYSTIC draws its data from “collection systems” that were overtly installed on the telecommunications systems of targeted countries, apparently by corporate “partners” cooperating with the NSA.

One NSA document spells out that “the overt purpose” given for accessing foreign telecommunications systems is “for legitimate commercial service for the Telco’s themselves.” But the same document adds: “Our covert mission is the provision of SIGINT,” or signals intelligence.

The classified 2013 intelligence budget also describes MYSTIC as using “partner-enabled” access to both cellular and landline phone networks. The goal of the access, the budget says, is to “provide comprehensive metadata access and content against targeted communications” in the Caribbean, Mexico, Kenya, the Philippines, and the unnamed country. The budget adds that in the Bahamas, Mexico, and the Philippines, MYSTIC requires “contracted services” for its “operational sustainment.”

Definitions of terms related to the MYSTIC program, drawn from an NSA glossary

The NSA documents don’t specify who is providing access in the Bahamas. But they do describe SOMALGET as an “umbrella term” for systems provided by a private firm, which is described elsewhere in the documents as a “MYSTIC access provider.” (The documents don’t name the firm, but rather refer to a cover name that The Intercept has agreed not to publish in response to a specific, credible concern that doing so could lead to violence.) Communications experts consulted by The Intercept say the descriptions in the documents suggest a company able to install lawful intercept equipment on phone networks.

Though it is not the “access provider,” the behemoth NSA contractor General Dynamics is directly involved in both MYSTIC and SOMALGET. According to documents, the firm has an eight-year, $51 million contract to process “all MYSTIC data and data for other NSA accesses” at a facility in Annapolis Junction, Maryland, down the road from NSA’s headquarters. NSA logs of SOMALGET collection activity – communications between analysts about issues such as outages and performance problems – contain references to a technician at a “SOMALGET processing facility” who bears the same name as a LinkedIn user listing General Dynamics as his employer. Reached for comment, a General Dynamics spokesperson referred questions to the NSA.

According to the NSA documents, MYSTIC targets calls and other data transmitted on Global System for Mobile Communications networks – the primary framework used for cell phone calls worldwide. In the Philippines, MYSTIC collects “GSM, Short Message Service (SMS) and Call Detail Records” via access provided by a “DSD asset in a Philippine provider site.” (The DSD refers to the Defence Signals Directorate, an arm of Australian intelligence. The Australian consulate in New York declined to comment.) The operation in Kenya is “sponsored” by the CIA, according to the documents, and collects “GSM metadata with the potential for content at a later date.” The Mexican operation is likewise sponsored by the CIA. The documents don’t say how or under what pretenses the agency is gathering call data in those countries.

In the Bahamas, the documents say, the NSA intercepts GSM data that is transmitted over what is known as the “A link”–or “A interface”–a core component of many mobile networks. The A link transfers data between two crucial parts of GSM networks – the base station subsystem, where phones in the field communicate with cell towers, and the network subsystem, which routes calls and text messages to the appropriate destination. “It’s where all of the telephone traffic goes,” says the former engineer.

Punching into this portion of a county’s mobile network would give the NSA access to a virtually non-stop stream of communications. It would also require powerful technology.

“I seriously don’t think that would be your run-of-the-mill legal interception equipment,” says the former engineer, who worked with hardware and software that typically maxed out at 1,000 intercepts. The NSA, by contrast, is recording and storing tens of millions of calls – “mass surveillance,” he observes, that goes far beyond the standard practices for lawful interception recognized around the world.

The Bahamas Telecommunications Company did not respond to repeated phone calls and emails.

If the US government wanted to make a case for surveillance in the Bahamas, it could point to the country’s status as a leading haven for tax cheats, corporate shell games, and a wide array of black-market traffickers. The State Department considers the Bahamas both a “major drug-transit country” and a “major money laundering country” (a designation it shares with more than 60 other nations, including the US). According to the International Monetary Fund, as of 2011 the Bahamas was home to 271 banks and trust companies with active licenses. At the time, the Bahamian banks held $595 billion in US assets.

But the NSA documents don’t reflect a concerted focus on the money launderers and powerful financial institutions – including numerous Western banks – that underpin the black market for narcotics in the Bahamas. Instead, an internal NSA presentation from 2013 recounts with pride how analysts used SOMALGET to locate an individual who “arranged Mexico-to-United States marijuana shipments” through the US Postal Service.

The presentation doesn’t say whether the NSA shared the information with the DEA. But the drug agency’s Special Operations Divison has come under fire for improperly using classified information obtained by the NSA to launch criminal investigations – and then creating false narratives to mislead courts about how the investigations began. The tactic – known as parallel construction – was first reported by Reuters last year, and is now under investigation by the Justice Department’s inspector general.

So: Beyond a desire to bust island pot dealers, why would the NSA choose to apply a powerful collection tool such as SOMALGET against the Bahamas, which poses virtually no threat to the United States?

The answer may lie in a document that characterizes the Bahamas operation as a “test bed for system deployments, capabilities, and improvements” to SOMALGET. The country’s small population – fewer than 400,000 residents – provides a manageable sample to try out the surveillance system’s features. Since SOMALGET is also operational in one other country, the Bahamas may be used as a sort of guinea pig to beta-test improvements and alterations without impacting the system’s operations elsewhere.

“From an engineering point of view it makes perfect sense,” says the former engineer. “Absolutely.”

Beyond the Bahamas, the other countries being targeted by MYSTIC are more in line with the NSA’s more commonly touted priorities. In Kenya, the US works closely with local security forces in combating the militant fundamentalist group Al-Shabab, based in neighboring Somalia. In the Philippines, the US continues to support a bloody shadow war against Islamist extremists launched by the Bush administration in 2002. Last month, President Barack Obama visited Manila to sign a military pact guaranteeing that US operations in Southeast Asia will continue and expand for at least another decade.

Mexico, another country targeted by MYSTIC, has received billions of dollars in police, military, and intelligence aid from the US government over the past seven years to fight the war on drugs, a conflict that has left more than 70,000 Mexicans dead by some estimates. Attorney General Eric Holder has described Mexican drug cartels as a US “national security threat,” and in 2009, then-CIA director Michael Hayden said the violence and chaos in Mexico would soon be the second greatest security threat facing the US behind Al Qaeda.

The legality of the NSA’s sweeping surveillance in the Bahamas is unclear, given the permissive laws under which the US intelligence community operates. Earlier this year, President Obama issued a policy directive imposing “new limits” on the US intelligence community’s use of “signals intelligence collected in bulk.” In addition to threats against military or allied personnel, the directive lists five broad conditions under which the agency would be permitted to trawl for data in unrestricted dragnets: threats posed by foreign powers, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, cybersecurity, and “transnational criminal threats, including illicit finance and sanctions evasion.”

SOMALGET operates under Executive Order 12333, a Reagan-era rule establishing wide latitude for the NSA and other intelligence agencies to spy on other countries, as long as the attorney general is convinced the efforts are aimed at gathering foreign intelligence. In 2000, the NSA assured Congress that all electronic surveillance performed under 12333 “must be conducted in a manner that minimizes the acquisition, retention, and dissemination of information about unconsenting US persons.” In reality, many legal experts point out, the lack of judicial oversight or criminal penalties for violating the order render the guidelines meaningless.

“I think it would be open, whether it was legal or not,” says German, the former FBI agent. “Because we don’t have all the facts about how they’re doing it. For a long time, the NSA has been interpreting their authority in the broadest possible way, even beyond what an objective observer would say was reasonable.”

“An American citizen has Fourth Amendment rights wherever they are,” adds Kurt Opsahl, an attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation. “Nevertheless, there have certainly been a number of things published over the last year which suggest that there are broad, sweeping programs that the NSA and other government agencies are doing abroad that sweep up the communications of Americans.”

Legal or not, the NSA’s covert surveillance of an entire nation suggests that it will take more than the president’s tepid “limits” to rein in the ambitions of the intelligence community. “It’s almost like they have this mentality – if we can, we will,” says German. “There’s no analysis of the long-term risks of doing it, no analysis of whether it’s actually worth the effort, no analysis of whether we couldn’t take those resources and actually put them on real threats and do more good.”

It’s not surprising, German adds, that the government’s covert program in the Bahamas didn’t remain covert. “The undermining of international law and international cooperation is such a long-term negative result of these programs that they had to know would eventually be exposed, whether through a leak, whether through a spy, whether through an accident,” he says. “Nothing stays secret forever. It really shows the arrogance of these agencies – they were just going to do what they were going to do, and they weren’t really going to consider any other important aspects of how our long-term security needs to be addressed.”"



from: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13930230001122
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 27, 2014 - 11:11pm PT
Why War Is Inevitable — Paul Craig Roberts
Memorial Day is when we commemorate our war dead. Like the Fourth of July, Memorial Day is being turned into a celebration of war.
Those who lose family members and dear friends to war don’t want the deaths to have been in vain. Consequently, wars become glorious deeds performed by noble soldiers fighting for truth, justice, and the American way. Patriotic speeches tell us how much we owe to those who gave their lives so that America could remain free.
The speeches are well-intentioned, but the speeches create a false reality that supports ever more wars. None of America’s wars had anything to do with keeping America free. To the contrary, the wars swept away our civil liberties, making us unfree.
President Lincoln issued an executive order for the arrest and imprisonment of northern newspaper reporters and editors. He shut down 300 northern newspapers and held 14,000 political prisoners. Lincoln arrested war critic US Representative Clement Vallandigham from Ohio and exiled him to the Confederacy. President Woodrow Wilson used WWI to suppress free speech, and President Franklin D. Roosevelt used WWII to intern 120,000 US citizens of Japanese descent on the grounds that race made them suspect. Professor Samuel Walker concluded that President George W. Bush used the “war on terror” for an across the board assault on US civil liberty, making the Bush regime the greatest danger American liberty has ever faced.
Lincoln forever destroyed states’ rights, but the suspension of habeas corpus and free speech that went hand in hand with America’s three largest wars was lifted at war’s end. However, President George W. Bush’s repeal of the Constitution has been expanded by President Obama and codified by Congress and executive orders into law. Far from defending our liberties, our soldiers who died in “the war on terror” died so that the president can indefinitely detain US citizens without due process of law and murder US citizens on suspicion alone without any accountability to law or the Constitution.
The conclusion is unavoidable that America’s wars have not protected our liberty but, instead, destroyed liberty. As Alexander Solzhenitsyn said, “A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyranny.”
Southern secession did pose a threat to Washington’s empire, but not to the American people. Neither the Germans of WWI vintage nor the Germans and Japanese of WWII vintage posed any threat to the US. As historians have made completely clear, Germany did not start WWI and did not go to war for the purpose of territorial expansion. Japan’s ambitions were in Asia. Hitler did not want war with England and France. Hitler’s territorial ambitions were mainly to restore German provinces stripped from Germany as WWI booty in violation of President Wilson’s guarantees. Any other German ambitions were to the East. Neither country had any plans to invade the US. Japan attacked the US fleet at Pearl Harbor hoping to remove an obstacle to its activities in Asia, not as a precursor to an invasion of America.

Certainly the countries ravaged by Bush and Obama in the 21st century–Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Syria, Pakistan, and Yemen posed no military threat to the US. Indeed, these were wars used by a tyrannical executive branch to establish the basis of the Stasi State that now exists in the US.
The truth is hard to bear, but the facts are clear. America’s wars have been fought in order to advance Washington’s power, the profits of bankers and armaments industries, and the fortunes of US companies. Marine General Smedley Butler said, “I served in all commissioned ranks from a second Lieutenant to a Major General. And during that time, I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street, and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.”
It is more or less impossible to commemorate the war dead without glorifying them, and it is impossible to glorify them without glorifying their wars.
For the entirety of the 21st century the US has been at war, not war against massed armies or threats to American freedom, but wars against civilians, against women, children, and village elders, and wars against our own liberty. Elites with a vested interest in these wars tell us that the wars will have to go on for another 20 to 30 years before we defeat “the terrorist threat.”
This, of course, is nonsense. There was no terrorist threat until Washington began trying to create terrorists by military attacks, justified by lies, on Muslim populations.
Washington succeeded with its war lies to the point that Washington’s audacity and hubris have outgrown Washington’s judgment.
By overthrowing the democratically elected government in Ukraine, Washington has brought the United States into confrontation with Russia. This is a confrontation that could end badly, perhaps for Washington and perhaps for the entire world.
If Gaddafi and Assad would not roll over for Washington, why does Washington think Russia will? Russia is not Libya or Syria. Washington is the bully who having beat up the kindergarten kid, now thinks he can take on the college linebacker.
The Bush and Obama regimes have destroyed America’s reputation with their incessant lies and violence against other peoples. The world sees Washington as the prime threat.
Worldwide polls consistently show that people around the world regard the US and Israel as the two countries that pose the greatest threat to peace. http://www.ibtimes.com/gallup-poll-biggest-threat-world-peace-america-1525008 and
http://www.jewishfederations.org/european-poll-israel-biggest-threat-to-world-peace.aspx

The countries that Washington’s propaganda declares to be “rogue states” and the “axis of evil,” such as Iran and North Korea, are far down the list when the peoples in the world are consulted. It could not be more clear that the world does not believe Washington’s self-serving propaganda. The world sees the US and Israel as the rogue states.
The US and Israel are the only two countries in the world that are in the grip of ideologies. The US is in the grip of the Neoconservative ideology which has declared the US to be the “exceptional, indispensable country” chosen by history to exercise hegemony over all others. This ideology is buttressed by the Brzezinski and Wolfowitz doctrines that are the basis of US foreign policy.
The Israeli government is in the grip of the Zionist ideology that declares a “greater Israel” from the Nile to the Euphrates. Many Israelis themselves do not accept this ideology, but it is the ideology of the “settlers” and those who control the Israeli government.
Ideologies are important causes of war. Just as the Hitlerian ideology of German superiority is mirrored in the Neoconservative ideology of US superiority, the Communist ideology that the working class is superior to the capitalist class is mirrored in the Zionist ideology that Israelis are superior to Palestinians. Zionists have never heard of squatters’ rights and claim that recent Jewish immigrants into Palestine–invaders really–have the right to land occupied by others for millenniums.
Washington’s and Israel’s doctrines of superiority over others do not sit very well with the ”others.” When Obama declared in a speech that Americans are the exceptional people, Russia’s President Putin responded, “God created us all equal.”
To the detriment of its population, the Israeli government has made endless enemies. Israel has effectively isolated itself in the world. Israel’s continued existence depends entirely on the willingness and ability of Washington to protect Israel. This means that Israel’s power is derivative of Washington’s power.
Washington’s power is a different story. As the only economy standing after WWII, the US dollar became the world money. This role for the dollar has given Washington financial hegemony over the world, the main source of Washington’s power. As other countries rise, Washington’s hegemony is imperiled.
To prevent other countries from rising, Washington invokes the Brzezinski and Wolfowitz doctrines. To be brief, the Brzezinski doctrine says that in order to remain the only superpower, Washington must control the Eurasian land mass. Brzezinski is willing for this to occur peacefully by suborning the Russian government into Washington’s empire. ”A loosely confederated Russia . . . a decentralized Russia would be less susceptible to imperial mobilization.” In other words, break up Russia into associations of semi-autonomous states whose politicians can be suborned by Washington’s money.

Brzezinski propounded “a geo-strategy for Eurasia.” In Brzezinski’s strategy, China and “a confederated Russia” are part of a “transcontinental security framework,” managed by Washington in order to perpetuate the role of the US as the world’s only superpower.
I once asked my colleague, Brzezinski, that if everyone was allied with us, who were we organized against? My question surprised him, because I think that Brzezinski remains caught up in Cold War strategy even after the demise of the Soviet Union. In Cold War thinking it was important to have the upper hand or else be at risk of being eliminated as a player. The importance of prevailing became all consuming, and this consuming drive survived the Soviet collapse. Prevailing over others is the only foreign policy that Washington knows.
The mindset that America must prevail set the stage for the Neoconservatives and their 21st century wars, which, with Washington’s overthrow of the democratically elected government of Ukraine, has resulted in a crisis that has brought Washington into direct conflict with Russia.
I know the strategic institutes that serve Washington. I was the occupant of the William E.Simon Chair in Political Economy, Center for Strategic and International Studies, for a dozen years. The idea is prevalent that Washington must prevail over Russia in Ukraine or Washington will lose prestige and its superpower status.
The idea of prevailing always leads to war once one power thinks it has prevailed.
The path to war is reinforced by the Wolfowitz Doctrine. Paul Wolfowitz, the neoconservative intellectual who formulated US military and foreign policy doctrine, wrote among many similar passages:
“Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere [China], that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power.”
In the Wolfowitz Doctrine, any other strong country is defined as a threat and a power hostile to the US regardless of how willing that country is to get along with the US for mutual benefit.
The difference between Brzezinski and the Neoconservatives is that Brzezinski wants to suborn Russia and China by including them in the empire as important elements whose voices would be heard, If only for diplomatic reasons, whereas the Neoconservatives are prepared to rely on military force combined with internal subversion orchestrated with US financed NGOs and even terrorist organizations.
Neither the US nor Israel is embarrassed by their worldwide reputations as the two countries that pose the greatest threat. In fact, both countries are proud to be recognized as the greatest threats. The foreign policy of both countries is devoid of any diplomacy. US and Israeli foreign policy rests on violence alone. Washington tells countries to do as Washington says or be “bombed into the stone age.” Israel declares all Palestinians, even women and children, to be “terrorists,” and proceeds to shoot them down in the streets, claiming that Israel is merely protecting itself against terrorists. Israel, which does not recognize the existence of Palestine as a country, covers up its crimes with the claim that Palestinians do not accept the existence of Israel.
“We don’t need no stinking diplomacy. We got power.”
This is the attitude that guarantees war, and that is where the US is taking the world. The prime minister of Britain, the chancellor of Germany, and the president of France are Washington’s enablers. They provide the cover for Washington. Instead of war crimes, Washington has “coalitions of the willing” and military invasions that bring “democracy and women’s rights” to non-compliant countries.
China gets much the same treatment. A country with four times the US population but a smaller prison population, China is constantly criticized by Washington as an “authoritarian state.” China is accused of human rights abuses while US police brutalize the US population.
The problem for humanity is that Russia and China are not Libya and Iraq. These two countries possess strategic nuclear weapons. Their land mass greatly exceeds that of the US. The US, which was unable to successfully occupy Baghdad or Afghanistan, has no prospect of prevailing against Russia and China in conventional warfare. Washington will push the nuclear button. What else can we expect from a government devoid of morality?
The world has never experienced rogue states comparable to Washington and Israel. Both governments are prepared to murder anyone and everyone. Look at the crisis that Washington has created in Ukraine and the dangers thereof. On May 23, 2014, Russia’s President Putin spoke to the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, a three-day gathering of delegations from 62 countries and CEOs from 146 of the largest Western corporations.
Putin did not speak of the billions of dollars in trade deals that were being formalized. Instead Putin spoke of the crisis that Washington had brought to Russia, and he criticized Europe for being Washington’s vassals for supporting Washington’s propaganda against Russia and Washington’s interference in vital Russian interests.
Putin was diplomatic in his language, but the message that powerful economic interests from the US and Europe received is that it will lead to trouble if Washington and European governments continue to ignore Russia’s concerns and continue to act as if they can interfere in Russia’s vital interests as if Russia did not exist.
The heads of these large corporations will carry this message back to Washington and European capitals. Putin made it clear that the lack of dialogue with Russia could lead to the West making the mistake of putting Ukraine in NATO and establishing missile bases on Russia’s border with Ukraine. Putin has learned that Russia cannot rely on good will from the West, and Putin made it clear, short of issuing a threat, that Western military bases in Ukraine are unacceptable.

Washington will continue to ignore Russia. However, European capitals will have to decide whether Washington is pushing them into conflict with Russia that is against European interests. Thus, Putin is testing European politicians to determine if there is sufficient intelligence and independence in Europe for a rapprochement.
If Washington in its overbearing arrogance and hubris forces Putin to write off the West, the Russian/Chinese strategic alliance, which is forming to counteract Washington’s hostile policy of surrounding both countries with military bases, will harden into preparation for the inevitable war.
The survivors, if any, can thank the Neoconservatives, the Wolfowitz doctrine, and the Brzezinski strategy for the destruction of life on earth.
The American public contains a large number of misinformed people who think they know everything. These people have been programmed by US and Israeli propaganda to equate Islam with political ideology. They believe that Islam, a religion, is instead a militarist doctrine that calls for the overthrow of Western civilization, as if anything remains of Western civilization.
Many believe this propaganda even in the face of complete proof that the Sunnis and Shi’ites hate one another far more than they hate their Western oppressors and occupiers. The US has departed Iraq, but the carnage today is as high or higher than during the US invasion and occupation. The daily death tolls from the Sunni/Shi’ite conflict are extraordinary. A religion this disunited poses no threat to anyone except Islamists themselves. Washington successfully used Islamist disunity to overthrow Gaddafi, and is currently using Islamist disunity in an effort to overthrow the government of Syria. Islamists cannot even unite to defend themselves against Western aggression. There is no prospect of Islamists uniting in order to overthrow the West.
Even if Islam could do so, it would be pointless for Islam to overthrow the West. The West has overthrown itself. In the US the Constitution has been murdered by the Bush and Obama regimes. Nothing remains. As the US is the Constitution, what was once the United States no longer exists. A different entity has taken its place.
Europe died with the European Union, which requires the termination of sovereignty of all member countries. A few unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels have become superior to the wills of the French, German, British, Italian, Dutch, Spanish, Greek, and Portuguese peoples.
Western civilization is a skeleton. It still stands, barely, but there is no life in it. The blood of liberty has departed. Western peoples look at their governments and see nothing but enemies. Why else has Washington militarized local police forces, equipping them as if they were occupying armies? Why else has Homeland Security, the Department of Agriculture, and even the Postal Service and Social Security Administration ordered billions of rounds of ammunition and even submachine guns? What is this taxpayer-paid-for arsenal for if not to suppress US citizens?

As the prominent trends forecaster Gerald Celente spells out in the current Trends Journal, “uprisings span four corners of the globe.” Throughout Europe angry, desperate and outraged peoples march against EU financial policies that are driving the peoples into the ground. Despite all of Washington’s efforts with its well-funded fifth columns known as NGOs to destabilize Russia and China, both the Russian and Chinese governments have far more support from their people than do the US and Europe.
In the 20th century Russia and China learned what tyranny is, and they have rejected it.
In the US tyranny has entered under the guise of the “war on terror,” a hoax used to scare the sheeple into abandoning their civil liberties, thus freeing Washington from accountability to law and permitting Washington to erect a militarist police state. Ever since WWII Washington has used its financial hegemony and the “Soviet threat,” now converted into the “Russian threat,” to absorb Europe into Washington’s empire.
Putin is hoping that the interests of European countries will prevail over subservience to Washington. This is Putin’s current bet. This is the reason Putin remains unprovoked by Washington’s provocations in Ukraine.
If Europe fails Russia, Putin and China will prepare for the war that Washington’s drive for hegemony makes inevitable.
karen roseme

Mountain climber
san diego
May 28, 2014 - 04:33pm PT
Nothing to Hide: The False Tradeoff between Privacy and Security, Solove, Daniel J.


"If you've got nothing to hide," many people say, "you shouldn't worry about government surveillance." Others argue that we must sacrifice privacy for security. But as Daniel J. Solove argues in this important book, these arguments and many others are flawed. They are based on mistaken views about what it means to protect privacy and the costs and benefits of doing so. The debate between privacy and security has been framed incorrectly as a zero-sum game in which we are forced to choose between one value and the other. Why can't we have both?
In this concise and accessible book, Solove exposes the fallacies of many pro-security arguments that have skewed law and policy to favor security at the expense of privacy. Protecting privacy isn't fatal to security measures; it merely involves adequate oversight and regulation. Solove traces the history of the privacy-security debate from the Revolution to the present day. He explains how the law protects privacy and examines concerns with new technologies. He then points out the failings of our current system and offers specific remedies. "Nothing to Hide" makes a powerful and compelling case for reaching a better balance between privacy and security and reveals why doing so is essential to protect our freedom and democracy.
jstan

climber
May 29, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
http://www.today.com/news/todays-takeaway-edward-snowden-speaks-out-elliot-rodgers-parents-describe-2D79730863

A poll conducted as the interview was broadcast caused the opinion as to whether he is a traitor or patriot to flip. Afterward 61% considered him a patriot. I suspect his description of NSA's ability to get your cell phone to record conversations and to take photos was a factor.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
May 29, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
Make no mistake, mass surveillance is there to squash dissent and the freedom of the press.

My sister pointed out a great article in Vanity Fair on Snowden. Great read.
crøtch

climber
Whale's Vagina
May 29, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
Full length video from Snowden's NBC interview

http://www.engadget.com/2014/05/29/edward-snowden-interview/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 2, 2014 - 06:52pm PT
Make no mistake, the purpose of the NSA surveillance is to crush dissent and the freedom of the press.

By going after Risen, the Obama administration has done more damage to reporter's privilege than any other case in forty years, including the Valerie Plame leak investigation that ensnared Judy Miller during the Bush administration. The Fourth Circuit is where many national security reporters live and work, and by eviscerating the privilege there, the government has made national security reporting that much harder in an age where there has already been an explosion in use on surveillance to root out sources of journalists.

While the fight for reporter's privilege will certainly continue, and is by no means dead in much of the country, this case is another reminder that reporters can no longer rely on the legal process to protect their sources. Surveillance has become the government's go-to tool for rooting out a record number of sources and chilling all kinds of investigative journalism. Out of the eight source prosecutions under the Obama administration, the Sterling case is the only one where a reporter was called to testify. As an unnamed national security official reportedly once said a year ago, “the Risen subpoena is one of the last you’ll see. We don’t need to ask who you’re talking to. We know.”

Link: Make No Mistake, This Case Is a Direct Attack on the Press
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 5, 2014 - 02:57pm PT
“Harmful rumor busters” monitor internet by robot, report the bad site info to clients everyday
Posted by Mochizuki on June 5th, 2014


The press conference above was managed by a marketing company, Dentsu PR (Dentsu Public Relations inc.). This is a group company of Dentsu inc., which is the biggest advertisement company in Japan.



This company, Dentsu PR offers the service called “Internet harmful rumor busters“. The service description is only on their Japanese page, not on English page.

With this service, they provide the client with the internet monitoring report. Their robot scans the internet to detect the websites to include the issued terms. They supply the reports about the site information and quotes to include the issued terms everyday.

This is how they help clients to find the risk of “slander”, “misinformation”, “harmful rumor”, and “leaked information”.



When they find the “risk”, they offer the clients the following services.

1. Demand the website owners to remove the issued contents.

2. Demand to remove the issued contents based on the legal right.



They also offer the service to spread the anti-harmful rumor, which is positive information on a certain organization or product.

They can offer PR events involving bloggers and mass media to rebuild the reputation as well.



http://www.pref.fukushima.lg.jp/uploaded/attachment/67524.pdf

http://www.dentsu-pr.co.jp/servicemenu/busters.html




Iori Mochizuki

You read this now because we’ve been surviving until today.

_
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jun 5, 2014 - 03:14pm PT


In his own words:

"It’s been one year.

Technology has been a liberating force in our lives. It allows us to create and share the experiences that make us human, effortlessly. But in secret, our very own government—one bound by the Constitution and its Bill of Rights—has reverse-engineered something beautiful into a tool of mass surveillance and oppression. The government right now can easily monitor whom you call, whom you associate with, what you read, what you buy, and where you go online and offline, and they do it to all of us, all the time.

Today, our most intimate private records are being indiscriminately seized in secret, without regard for whether we are actually suspected of wrongdoing. When these capabilities fall into the wrong hands, they can destroy the very freedoms that technology should be nurturing, not extinguishing. Surveillance, without regard to the rule of law or our basic human dignity, creates societies that fear free expression and dissent, the very values that make America strong.

In the long, dark shadow cast by the security state, a free society cannot thrive.

That’s why one year ago I brought evidence of these irresponsible activities to the public—to spark the very discussion the U.S. government didn’t want the American people to have. With every revelation, more and more light coursed through a National Security Agency that had grown too comfortable operating in the dark and without public consent. Soon incredible things began occurring that would have been unimaginable years ago. A federal judge in open court called an NSA mass surveillance program likely unconstitutional and “almost Orwellian.” Congress and President Obama have called for an end to the dragnet collection of the intimate details of our lives. Today legislation to begin rolling back the surveillance state is moving in Congress after more than a decade of impasse.

I am humbled by our collective successes so far. When the Guardian and The Washington Post began reporting on the NSA’s project to make privacy a thing of the past, I worried the risks I took to get the public the information it deserved would be met with collective indifference.

One year later, I realize that my fears were unwarranted.

Americans, like you, still believe the Constitution is the highest law of the land, which cannot be violated in secret in the name of a false security. Some say I’m a man without a country, but that’s not true. America has always been an ideal, and though I’m far away, I’ve never felt as connected to it as I do now, watching the necessary debate unfold as I hoped it would. America, after all, is always at our fingertips; that is the power of the Internet.

But now it’s time to keep the momentum for serious reform going so the conversation does not die prematurely.

Only then will we get the legislative reform that truly reins in the NSA and puts the government back in its constitutional place. Only then will we get the secure technologies we need to communicate without fear that silently in the background, our very own government is collecting, collating, and crunching the data that allows unelected bureaucrats to intrude into our most private spaces, analyzing our hopes and fears. Until then, every American who jealously guards their rights must do their best to engage in digital self-defense and proactively protect their electronic devices and communications. Every step we can take to secure ourselves from a government that no longer respects our privacy is a patriotic act.

We’ve come a long way, but there’s more to be done."


Edward J. Snowden, American
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 5, 2014 - 03:56pm PT
Snowden will go down in history as a good guy. Not as a "traitor."

Who did he betray?

What sucks is that it blew over and nobody cares that everyone from Google to the NSA is copying and analyzing every mouse click that you make. And they store it. It seems like everyone forgot about it.

This must all be incredibly expensive to spy on everyone. I can see the potential for misuse of this information by a future government. I wish we could delete all of NSA's servers.

I like to end my emails with a "hot" word, just to bother the NSA.

Cesium. Dirty bomb.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 6, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Them as well as bluejaybrightplanet. Agree so much for freedoms what freedom?
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 6, 2014 - 12:55pm PT
Apparently, after Obama was briefed on "The Program," he decided to keep it, despite its legality being based on a finding written by Cheney's lawyer, and his campaign promise to stop it.

Yep. Dick Cheney's lawyer wrote the opinion that made wholesale spying on America legal. Frontline just aired two two hour back to back episodes on the whole thing and its history.

There were some who spoke out against it. Notably, a Republican staffer on the Senate Intelligence Committee totally blew a fuse over it.

Now the public has forgotten all about it.

This post is being recorded and kept forever by NSA servers. Doesn't this bug anybody? It ignores the 4th amendment. What value they may find in all of this data puzzles me. They haven't stopped any attacks.

Always end your posts or emails with "hot words" to make them waste their time....


Pottassium Chlorate. Castor beans. Screw you NSA.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 6, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
NSA does not create the hardware or software they procure it from vendors or contractors. A one being BrightPlanet, I believe they are #1 for gov. state and local plus 72 other companies that will provide the info for you.

Most are related for gov. and corporations but also for small companies.

Now that the elections are on there way, this is where one [the guy running against and needs as much sh%t about his opponent he can use to say nice things about for TV commercials] first looking at public records: DUI, beat your wife/husband ect.that's easy anyone can for $2.00 want more info $24.00.

Finding very little then they go deep as in the deep web and look at the unknown never heard of but wait here is something somebody said or a picture of him with a ppppppprostitute, Wait 10 times he was seen in the place. Hey! here is picture of him/she in High school smoking a joint. Her/she was protesting against something back in the 60's.

Would they abuse this information they collect. Of course not they would not even think of doing that.

But or course they only use it for your shopping habits so that your next e-mail from Target is 10% coupon.

By the way Cheney and Poindexter both of them go along ways back with creating the software well before 911.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 8, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
Kremlin

Snowden's Russia visa for temporary asylum, which can be extended indefinitely.

Ex-KGB Major Boris Karpichko told Nigel Nelson of The Mirror that spies from Russia’s SVR intelligence service, posing as ­diplomats in Hong Kong, convinced Snowden to fly to Moscow last June.

“It was a trick and he fell for it," Karpichko, who reached the rank of Major as a member of the KGB's prestigious Second Directorate while specializing in counter-intelligence, told Nelson. " Now the Russians are extracting all the intelligence he possesses.”

Karpichko fled Moscow in 1998 after spying on his native Latvia for the KGB and the post-Soviet FSB. The 55-year-old says he is still in contact with several of his old spy pals.

Snowden flew from Hawaii to Hong Kong on May 20, 2013 and identified himself to the world on June 9. The 30-year-old American became stranded in Moscow on June 23 after he landed with a void U.S. passport and an unsigned travel Ecuadorian document obtained by WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange.

Karpichko said that the Kremlin leaked Snowden’s planned flight to Moscow to provoke the U.S. into revoking Snowden's passport, which Washington did on June 22. Assange also advised S nowden that " he would be physically safest in Russia."

Snowden has been living under the protection of the post-Soviet security services (FSB) since at least receiving asylum on Aug. 1. Karpichko told The Mirror that Snowden lives in an FSB-controlled neighborhood in Moscow's suburbs.

"His flat is heavily alarmed to stop anything happening to him," Karpichko said. "He meets the FSB twice a week over plenty of food and drink.”

Former KGB General Olig Kalugin recently told VentureBeat that “the Russians are very pleased with the gifts Edward Snowden has given them. He’s busy doing something. He is not just idling his way through life."
Back to the CIA

Karpichko also claims that Moscow spotted Snowden as a candidate for defection in 2007 and opened a file on him while he worked as a CIA technician in Geneva.

The CIA hired Snowden as a systems administrator and technician in 2006 and sent him to Geneva in early 2007 under diplomatic cover at the U.S. Mission to the United Nations. Then 24, Snowden's "was in the system. He was reading the traffic" at the Geneva CIA station, one former CIA official told Vanity Fair.

Snowden had a web presence for years, posting on Ars Technica under the name "The TrueHOOHA" from 2001 until May 2012.

Snowden has said that he first considered leaking documents around 2008. He resigned from the CIA in early 2009 after becoming "disillusioned" about how the U.S. government functions. He excelled at several jobs for the NSA and as an NSA contractor before fleeing to Hong Kong.

The U.S. government believes Snowden began downloading in the summer of 2013 and eventually stole around 1.7 million documents — about 200,000 of which he gave to journalists.

It is unclear when or if the former NSA systems administrator gave up access to the cache of up to 1.5 million documents, which is suspected to contain military intel. Snowden recently told NBC that he "destroyed" them but had previously told the New York Times that he gave them all to journalists he met in Hong Kong .

As an experienced systems administrator, Snowden is especially appealing to spy services hostile to America. Both the U.S. and U.K. claim that the Snowden leaks have done staggering damage to their spy operations. In any case, Snowden's brain is a very valuable asset to his hosts in Moscow.

“He will stay in Russia until they have got everything they want from him," Karpichko said. " They need the time to extract all the classified intelligence he possesses about the operational methods and tactics of Western security agencies."
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 13, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Need to know about the Stingray? Well wonder no more.
Suppressed court testimony on the technical aspects of cellphone tracking
by police has been released by a foia.

https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/100823_transcription_of_suppression_hearing_28unsealed_pages_11-2429.pdf

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security-technology-and-liberty/victory-judge-releases-information-about-police-use

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/how-florida-cops-went-door-to-door-with-fake-cell-device-to-find-one-man/


And for geeks who crave seeing pictures of the actual hardware
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/09/meet-the-machines-that-steal-your-phones-data/


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/08/cellphone-data-abuses/3902845/
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Jun 13, 2014 - 05:05pm PT
Kind of weird. It turns out that we really do NEED to get some tinfoil hats.

I can see no GOOD purpose for the government to collect all of this data. They store all of your emails for goodness sake.

ammonium perchlorate. Lead azide.

Chew on that ya wankers....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2014 - 05:59pm PT
Turn it back on em'!

June 13, 2014

Admiral Michael S. Rogers

Director, National Security Agency

Fort Meade, MD 20755

Admiral Rogers:

First, thank you for your 33 years of, and continued service to, our country.

Second, as you probably read, the Internal Revenue Service informed the House Ways and Means Committee today they claim to “lost” all emails from former Exempt Organizations division director Lois Lerner for the period between January 2009 and April 2011.

According to chairman Camp, “The IRS claims it cannot produce emails written only to or from Lerner and outside agencies or groups, such as the White House, Treasury, Department of Justice, FEC, or Democrat offices” due to a “computer glitch.”

I am writing to request the Agency produce all metadata it has collected on all of Ms. Lerner’s email accounts for the period between January 2009 and April 2011.

The data may be transmitted to our Communications Director at Donny@mail.house.gov.

Your prompt cooperation in this matter will be greatly appreciated and will help establish how IRS and other personnel violated rights protected by the First Amendment.

Warmest wishes,

STEVE STOCKMAN

Member of Congress
couchmaster

climber
Jun 13, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
Dear Steve. Despite what the constitution may indicate or what the founders desired, congress has no authority over us. We work for the President. Pound sand up your a*# and get screwed. If we decide to break the law there's not a damned thing you and your ilk can do about it.

Signed: the admiral

Ps. Phone recordings we've made indicates your hot wife is banging the gardener.
couchmaster

climber
Jun 16, 2014 - 07:48am PT
This kid has chosen to devote his life to photographing secret military installations and black ops.

..." the "black budget" of the US defence department, for example, has more than tripled since George W Bush became president and, according to information released by Edward Snowden, was $52bn in 2012. The secret world's shadow is today far bigger and blacker than ever before – and by definition, we the public, whether in the US or the rest of the world, know next to nothing about it."


Full story here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/secret-state-trevor-paglen-documents-the-hidden-world-of-governmental-surveillance-from-drone-bases-to-black-sites-9536376.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 21, 2014 - 01:29am PT
The US Government is actively seeking those who criticize government, specifically Barack Obama, and arresting them without charging them. They are remanded to mental health institutions where they are given "training" on how to view the world.

Remind you of a little book that George Orwell wrote?

It gets worse.

Most of the victims of the government's kidnapping scheme are veterans.

http://www.politicalears.com/blog/government-arresting-people-for-antiobama-facebook-posts/

From The Rutherford Institute:


In the four years since the start of Operation Vigilant Eagle, the government has steadily ramped up its campaign to “silence” dissidents, especially those with military backgrounds. Coupled with the DHS’ dual reports on Rightwing and Leftwing “Extremism,” which broadly define extremists as individuals and groups “that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely,” these tactics have boded ill for anyone seen as opposing the government.

One particularly troubling mental health label being applied to veterans and others who challenge the status quo is “oppositional defiance disorder” (ODD). As journalist Anthony Martin explains, an ODD diagnosis

“denotes that the person exhibits ‘symptoms’ such as the questioning of authority, the refusal to follow directions, stubbornness, the unwillingness to go along with the crowd, and the practice of disobeying or ignoring orders. Persons may also receive such a label if they are considered free thinkers, nonconformists, or individuals who are suspicious of large, centralized government… At one time the accepted protocol among mental health professionals was to reserve the diagnosis of oppositional defiance disorder for children or adolescents who exhibited uncontrollable defiance toward their parents and teachers.”
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 21, 2014 - 02:18am PT


Richard Clarke, the nation’s former top counterterrorism official, tells Democracy Now! he believes President George W. Bush is guilty of war crimes for launching the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Clarke served as national coordinator for security and counterterrorism during Bush’s first year in office. He resigned in 2003 following the Iraq invasion and later made headlines by accusing Bush officials of ignoring pre-9/11 warnings about an imminent attack by al-Qaeda. "I think things that they authorized probably fall within the area of war crimes," Clarke says. "Whether that would be productive or not, I think, is a discussion we could all have. But we have established procedures now with the International Criminal Court in The Hague, where people who take actions as serving presidents or prime ministers of countries have been indicted and have been tried. So the precedent is there to do that sort of thing. And I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not it would be useful to do that in the case of members of the Bush administration. It’s clear that things that the Bush administration did — in my mind, at least — were war crimes."
Transcrip

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/6/2/ex_counterterrorism_czar_richard_clarke_bush
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jul 3, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
Some Independence Day beta for the brave new world:

Best Practice strategy for the Government rubber-hose wielders
is to keep on beating keys out of citizens
(lets say, Alice, in this case)
indefinitely till there are no keys left.

However, and importantly, during Rubberhose, *Alice* can never
prove that she has handed over the last key. As Alice hands over more
and more keys, her attackers can make observations like "the keys
Alice has divulged correspond to 85% of the bits". However at no point
can her attackers prove that the remaining 15% don't simply pertain to
unallocated space, and at no point can Alice, even if she wants to,
divulge keys to 100% of the bits, in order to bring the un-divulged
portion down to 0%. An obvious point to make here is that
fraction-of-total-data divulged is essentially meaningless, and both
parties know it - the launch code aspect may only take up .01% of the
total bit-space.

What I find interesting, is how this constraint on Alice's behaviour
actually protects her from revealing her own keys, because each party,
at the outset can make the following observations:

Rubber-hose-squad: We will never be able to show that Alice has
revealed the last of her keys. Further, even if
Alice has co-operated fully and has revealed all of
her keys, she will not be able to prove it.
Therefore, we must assume that at every stage that
Alice has kept secret information from us, and we'll
continue to beat her, even though she may have
revealed the last of her keys. But the whole time
we will feel uneasy about this because Alice may
have co-operated fully. Alice will have realised this
though, and so presumably it's going to be very hard
to get any keys out of her at all.


Alice: (Having realised the above) I can never prove that
I have revealed the last of my keys. In the end I'm
bound for a continued beating, even if I can buy
brief respites by coughing up keys from time to
time. Therefore, it would be foolish to divulge my
most sensitive keys, because (a) I'll be that much
closer to the stage where I have nothing left to
divulge at all (it's interesting to note that this
seemingly illogical, yet entirely valid argument of
Alice's can protect the most sensitive of Alice's
keys the "whole way though", like a form
mathematical induction), and (b) the taste of truly
secret information will only serve to make my
aggressors come to the view that there is even
higher quality information yet to come, re-doubling
their beating efforts to get at it, even if I have
revealed all. Therefore, my best strategy would be
to (a) reveal no keys at all or (b) depending on
the nature of the aggressors, and the psychology of
the situation, very slowly reveal my "duress" and
other low-sensitivity keys.

Alice certainly isn't in for a very nice time of it (although she's
far more likely to protect her data because in the end the amount of
rubber-hosing will be exactly the same).
couchmaster

climber
Jul 13, 2014 - 06:18pm PT

Today story -title quoted:
"The ultimate goal of the NSA is total population control"


snippits:


"William Binney is one of the highest-level whistleblowers to ever emerge from the NSA. He was a leading code-breaker against the Soviet Union during the Cold War but resigned soon after September 11, disgusted by Washington’s move towards mass surveillance."

"He praised the revelations and bravery of former NSA contractor Edward Snowden and told me that he had indirect contact with a number of other NSA employees who felt disgusted with the agency’s work."

"Binney recently told the German NSA inquiry committee that his former employer had a “totalitarian mentality” that was the "greatest threat" to US society since that country’s US Civil War in the 19th century. Despite this remarkable power, Binney still mocked the NSA’s failures, including missing this year’s Russian intervention in Ukraine and the Islamic State’s take-over of Iraq."

or read the entire article:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/11/the-ultimate-goal-of-the-nsa-is-total-population-control
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jul 13, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
More blather from the corrupt regime. Don't fall for it. There are only two reasons Snowden or Binney are alive.

1)They still work for them.
or
2)They don't know enough to be truly harmful and are being played as useful idiots.

The goal is fear, plain and simple. If you "think" you're being watched 24/7, their goal is a success.

Keep paying your taxes, keep sending your children to die for nothing, keep your mouth shut, etc....

nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 31, 2014 - 09:00pm PT
a new candidate for best example of the word "ironic"?


1. oct. 13, 2013. ms. feinstein, staunch defender of the nsa and its treating of all humans as suspected terrorists:

"The NSA call-records program is working and contributing to our safety. It is legal and it is subject to strict oversight and thorough judicial review”


2. july 31, 2014. ms. feinstein, staunch defender of her right to not be spied on - after the cia admits to "covertly hack[ing] into computers [being] used by senate staffers to investigate the spy agency's Bush-era interrogation practices.":

"CIA personnel inappropriately searched Senate Intelligence Committee computers in violation of an agreement we had reached, and I believe in violation of the constitutional separation of powers"



hahahaha.

all one can do is laugh robustly...
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Aug 7, 2014 - 11:38am PT
So maybe you're asking yourself how some Russian gang stole a billion
user names and passwords? Could it just be weak passwords and website
security settings allowing exploits like SQL injection hacks
and Bot-net assimilation's?

Lets also hope it is actually hashes stolen and not the plain text
passwords. Maybe the reporters do not know the difference?

Entropy of your password or pass-phrase simply means how fast a GPU
array of computers running in gangster Ivan and Nikita's potato barn
in Kyrgyzstan can brute force (dictionary attack you) at 350 billion
guesses per second over the global fiber net.


Test your pass-phrase now.
Use a pass-phrase ENTROPY CALCULATOR.
(or something similar- same length etc but not your real one)

like this calculator
http://rumkin.com/tools/password/passchk.php#
or this one
https://www.cygnius.net/snippets/passtest.html

If your passphrase has an entrophy below 80 basically expect to be f^^ked.

What to do? Many are now using 6 word sentences. Just as long as you can
type it in without errors and, of course, remember it.
And it does not have to be good English.
Poor is good.
Nonsense string of words is good.
Add in one of these *&^%$#@!>?+= between words and add a number or two
0 9 8...2 1 , maybe a period or comma or '/'. between other words and a
capitol letter and no cracker can brute force it as long as the total
yields an Entrophy value over 80.


Example
pine foot Vane wheat 5^ hot
has an entrophy of over 103 and is easily remembered and typed
in without a fuss and would be uncrackable.

easy read..here
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/diceware-passwords-now-need-six-random-words-to-thwart-hackers/

Ignorance is not bliss when the Russians are after your bank account.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 7, 2014 - 11:47am PT
Dave, good post, thanks. Just to be sure, if I click on that Rumkin thang
you promise I won't get hacked?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Aug 7, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Yup. safe. Paranoid is good.

If you want, download a copy of Puppy Linux or other small Linux and
put it on a flash stick (use an ISO image installer)

like
universal-USB-installer-1.9.5.4.exe

and adjust your BIOS and reboot your computer to boot up from the USB stick.
This leaves your entire hard drive alone. Only RAM is involved.
Run the Linux briefly to check unknown sites out.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 16, 2014 - 12:21am PT
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25890-focus-new-zealands-prime-minister-isnt-telling-the-truth-about-mass-surveillance

New Zealand's Prime Minister Isn't Telling the Truth About Mass Surveillance By Edward Snowden, The Intercept 15 September 14

Like many nations around the world, New Zealand over the last year has engaged in a serious and intense debate about government surveillance. The nation’s prime minister, John Key of the National Party, has denied that New Zealand’s spy agency GCSB engages in mass surveillance, mostly as a means of convincing the country to enact a new law vesting the agency with greater powers. This week, as a national election approaches, Key repeated those denials in anticipation of a report in The Intercept today exposing the Key government’s actions in implementing a system to record citizens’ metadata.

Let me be clear: any statement that mass surveillance is not performed in New Zealand, or that the internet communications are not comprehensively intercepted and monitored, or that this is not intentionally and actively abetted by the GCSB, is categorically false. If you live in New Zealand, you are being watched. At the NSA I routinely came across the communications of New Zealanders in my work with a mass surveillance tool we share with GCSB, called “XKEYSCORE.” It allows total, granular access to the database of communications collected in the course of mass surveillance. It is not limited to or even used largely for the purposes of cybersecurity, as has been claimed, but is instead used primarily for reading individuals’ private email, text messages, and internet traffic. I know this because it was my full-time job in Hawaii, where I worked every day in an NSA facility with a top secret clearance.

The prime minister’s claim to the public, that “there is no and there never has been any mass surveillance” is false. The GCSB, whose operations he is responsible for, is directly involved in the untargeted, bulk interception and algorithmic analysis of private communications sent via internet, satellite, radio, and phone networks.

If you have doubts, which would be quite reasonable, given what the last year showed us about the dangers of taking government officials at their word, I invite you to confirm this for yourself. Actual pictures and classified documentation of XKEYSCORE are available online now, and their authenticity is not contested by any government. Within them you’ll find that the XKEYSCORE system offers, but does not require for use, something called a “Five Eyes Defeat,” the Five Eyes being the U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, and yes, New Zealand.

This might seem like a small detail, but it’s very important. The Five Eyes Defeat is an optional filter, a single checkbox. It allows me, the analyst, to prevent search results from being returned on those countries from a particular search. Ask yourself: why do analysts have a checkbox on a top secret system that hides the results of mass surveillance in New Zealand if there is no mass surveillance in New Zealand?

The answer, one that the government of New Zealand has not been honest about, is that despite claims to the contrary, mass surveillance is real and happening as we speak. The GCSB provides mass surveillance data into XKEYSCORE. They also provide access to the communications of millions of New Zealanders to the NSA at facilities such as the GCSB station at Waihopai, and the Prime Minister is personally aware of this fact. Importantly, they do not merely use XKEYSCORE, but also actively and directly develop mass surveillance algorithms for it. GCSB’s involvement with XKEYSCORE is not a theory, and it is not a future plan. The claim that it never went ahead, and that New Zealand merely “looked at” but never participated in the Five Eyes’ system of mass surveillance is false, and the GCSB’s past and continuing involvement with XKEYSCORE is irrefutable.

But what does it mean?

It means they have the ability see every website you visit, every text message you send, every call you make, every ticket you purchase, every donation you make, and every book you order online. From “I’m headed to church” to “I hate my boss” to “She’s in the hospital,” the GCSB is there. Your words are intercepted, stored, and analyzed by algorithms long before they’re ever read by your intended recipient.

Faced with reasonable doubts, ask yourself just what it is that stands between these most deeply personal communications and the governments of not just in New Zealand, but also the U.S., Canada, the U.K., and Australia?

The answer is that solitary checkbox, the Five Eyes Defeat. One checkbox is what separates our most sacred rights from the graveyard of lost liberty. When an officer of the government wants to know everything about everyone in their society, they don’t even have to make a technical change. They simply uncheck the box. The question before us is no longer “why was this done without the consent and debate of the people of this country,” but “what are we going to do about it?”

This government may have total control over the checkbox today, but come Sept. 20, New Zealanders have a checkbox of their own. If you live in New Zealand, whatever party you choose to vote for, bear in mind the opportunity to send a message that this government won’t need to spy on us to hear: The liberties of free people cannot be changed behind closed doors. It’s time to stand up. It’s time to restore our democracies. It’s time to take back our rights. And it starts with you.

National security has become the National Party’s security. What we’re seeing today is that in New Zealand, the balance between the public’s right to know and the propriety of a secret is determined by a single factor: the political advantage it offers to a specific party and or a specific politician. This misuse of New Zealand’s spying apparatus for the benefit of a single individual is a historic concern, because even if you believe today’s prime minister is beyond reproach, he will not remain in power forever. What happens tomorrow, when a different leader assumes the same power to conceal and reveal things from the citizenry based not on what is required by free societies, but rather on what needs to be said to keep them in power?
couchmaster

climber
Sep 16, 2014 - 08:40am PT
^^^ Haha Dingus! ^^^

Great and simple synopsis Tom, thanks for putting it up.

dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Sep 16, 2014 - 10:53am PT
Did the Kiwi's decide to oppress their citizens that way by themselves
or were they coerced by our NSA/FBI/HLS?
A question asked for historical purposes only.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 16, 2014 - 11:21am PT
^^ Dave, see

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/06/18/nsa-surveillance-secret-cable-partners-revealed-rampart-a/

Below is just an excerpt:

......It has already been widely reported that the NSA works closely with eavesdropping agencies in the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia as part of the so-called Five Eyes surveillance alliance. But the latest Snowden documents show that a number of other countries, described by the NSA as “third-party partners,” are playing an increasingly important role – by secretly allowing the NSA to install surveillance equipment on their fiber-optic cables.

The NSA documents state that under RAMPART-A, foreign partners “provide access to cables and host U.S. equipment.” This allows the agency to covertly tap into “congestion points around the world” where it says it can intercept the content of phone calls, faxes, e-mails, internet chats, data from virtual private networks, and calls made using Voice over IP software like Skype.

The program, which the secret files show cost U.S. taxpayers about $170 million between 2011 and 2013, sweeps up a vast amount of communications at lightning speed. According to the intelligence community’s classified “Black Budget” for 2013, RAMPART-A enables the NSA to tap into three terabits of data every second as the data flows across the compromised cables – the equivalent of being able to download about 5,400 uncompressed high-definition movies every minute.....
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Sep 16, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
I just wanted to think better of N.Z.

Why be surprised when 'spies' are offered capabilities like RAMPART
and KEYSH^t(sic)? They embraced them like a drunk does a bottle.
And the politicians use the info to destroy their opponents and win
elections creating a dictatorship in effect if not name.

Understand that many sociopathic people choose to work for spy agencies.
Their reaction to being exposed by Snowden is telling.
The lack of shame when caught. Check.
The denial and continual lying in the face of damning evidence. Check.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 16, 2014 - 01:56pm PT
Understand that many sociopathic people choose to work for spy agencies.

You don't have a clue or a shred of evidence to back that up. The vast
majority who work for our security are just like everybody else - a few
quirks and issues but hardly sociopaths. The job screening typically takes
months. The sociopaths are the elected morons who typically ignore or
misconstrue the info given to them.

signed,
Was offered a job but Langley, VA was too far from any real climbing
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Sep 16, 2014 - 04:27pm PT
Reilly
So you are not a spook. Check. You are normal. Check.

Why post to their defense of total E-vacuuming?


Never mind.
Know that the real long term money in tech is hard drives. The planetary
manufacturing base for spinning media cannot keep up with demand
from the spy agencies data centers.

Find their data-vacuum centers by the excess of cooling equipment
on their roofs. Its simple.

For instance use Google EARTH and scan the Hwy 101 corridor (fiber cable route in SILICON VALLEY).
The buildings without a square foot of open space covered by
air conditioning boxes is a world-wide-web data center. Are they legit
of NSA hubs?

They are always both. Guaranteed.
NSA blades run next to server blades around the globe
and reduce latency of tagged items back to Fort Meade.
Avery

climber
NZ
Sep 16, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
I'm not surprised at all. NZ's Prime Minister is a complete bastard. We have a general election on Saturday, and a chance to throw this government out. I will certainly be exercising the democratic right that's allotted to me for 60 seconds every 3 years.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 16, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
Dave, I didn't say I'm normal. Few on this forum are. I just said your
baseless assertion of "many sociopaths" was way off as are most of your
trite statements. You seem to fear that our democracy isn't capable of
adequately overseeing our security organizations which are actively conspiring
to subvert our freedoms. Don't worry, Walmart and TMZ already have that
nicely in hand.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Sep 16, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
..and the checks in the mail
.. and you love her/him/
..and you won't...

Hey just think it only took 7% of the colonies population
to kick the British out over 200 years ago. What % of the
spy agencies peeps would it take to turn the US into Brave_New_World ?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Sep 25, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
And the beat goes on.

Shellshock. A new computer vulnerability found! Think nuclear bomb going
off in the hacker community and it barely scratches the surface of how
serious this is.
More than 500 million computers are affected world wide.

Apple and Linux based systems hardest hit, Servers, Apache.

Patching may not fix it? "security researchers warned that the patches
were "incomplete" and would not fully secure systems. Of particular
concern to security experts is the simplicity of carrying out attacks
that make use of the bug."


The flaw has been found in a software component known as Bash, which is a
part of many Linux systems as well as Apple's Mac operating system.


The bug, dubbed Shellshock, can be used to remotely take control of almost
any system using Bash, researchers said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-29361794



Some are saying 'Shellshock' 'Bash' is confirmed as real and its loose in
the wild.
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/929d622f3b36b00c0be1

A test example for modern renaissance climbers who can code and climb ;)
This bug gives the ability to run arbitrary shell commands, so you can do
pretty much anything!
https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/68122/what-is-a-specific-example-of-how-the-shellshock-bash-bug-could-be-exploited


**Just saw this user-agent in the wild as well:
() { :;}; echo shellshock-scan > /dev/udp/pwn.nixon-security.se/4444
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 17, 2014 - 09:36am PT
I'm looking forward to seeing Laura Poitras' new film, "Citizenfour", about Edward Snowden, which recently debuted.

Some interesting news is that Lindsay Mills, Snowden's long time girlfriend moved to Moscow this summer to live with him. :)

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/10/narrative-destroyed-edward-snowdens-girlfriend-lindsay-mills-moved-moscow-live/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Oct 17, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
I hope he doesn't talk in his sleep.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 17, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- Nashville's police chief is raising stunning new allegations regarding the U.S. Secret Service, saying local agents once asked his officers to fake a warrant.

Even more disturbing, Chief Steve Anderson said he complained to top Secret Service officials in Washington, and they did not seem to care.

The allegations regarding the January 2013 incident are contained in a letter that Anderson sent last week to several members of the House Committee on Oversight. That's the congressional committee that has spearheaded the on-going investigation into the Secret Service. Secret Service Director Julia Pierson was recently forced to resign as a result of that scandal.

http://www.jrn.com/newschannel5/news/newschannel-5-investigates/Police-Chief-Accuses-Secret-Service-Of-Misconduct-279207151.html?lc=Smart
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2014 - 12:05am PT
oh look:

a patriot act provision that was justified as needed in order to assure the defeating of the terrorists [tm] is overwhelmingly being used in narcotics cases.

the search without notification [aka "snake and peek"] warrant was used 11129 times in 2013.

of those 11129 times 51 were used in terrorism cases and 9401 were used in narcotics cases.



let's all sing together: "O'er the laaaaaand of the freeeeeeeee and the hoooommme of the braaaave"*

*now including the following fine print read by an announcer in a quiet but hastily spoken voice: "freedoms and rights do not necessarily apply to the two-thirds of the population living within 100 miles of the border, those suspected of drug offences or terroristic thoughts, or those americans travelling in countries that are currently being remotely bombed. any remaining terms are subject to presidential discretion and may be curtailed without notice at any time. war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. thank you and good night."
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Nov 28, 2014 - 09:22pm PT
Any ideas on how to defend against this?

Two Part Air Gap hacking of any isolated 'secure' computer.
No cable or wi-fi internet connection.

An installed rootkit virus records all a users keystrokes. Periodically it
generates an invisible FM radio signal using the computers video card.
The cable up to the video monitor acts as the transmitting antenna.

No Firewall watches for signals going to the video monitor.

So it sends the keystrokes plus computer ID via radio waves
several meters through the air to any smart cell phone
with an FM radio receiver.

The phone likely has a few Apple or Google apps that,
unknown to the phones owner,
have an extra function appended.
Listening for and recording these FM spy signals.

The data file is purposely small to remain hidden. It is sent
over the cell phone network to you know who.

http://lambda-diode.com/electronics/tempest/


couchmaster

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 09:28am PT
Was writing a letter to my Senator re this: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2269866&tn=0 and also found this big news which I hadn't heard a breath of in the mainstream newz. This is big.

http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-introduces-bill-to-ban-government-mandated-backdoors-into-americans-cellphones-and-computers

"Thursday, December 4, 2014

Washington, D.C. – U.S. Senator Ron Wyden, D-Ore., today introduced the Secure Data Act to protect Americans’ privacy and data security. The bill prohibits government mandates to build backdoors or security vulnerabilities into U.S. software and electronics."

One small step for mankind in the right direction.......
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 09:35am PT
You know, with all this losing-our-freedoms hand-wringing and applauding of
passing laws restricting the spooks why isn't there an equal or greater outcry
over all the criminals who are after our identities and money? I'd like
to empower the NSA to go after those vermin.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 09:38am PT
That stuff is already illegal Reilly, and I personally know that the Army has a significant couple of groups in play that work against that kind of thing. In either case, no private group of thugs could ever (hopefully) amass the kind of power that the government could have and in fact does have over you as an honest citizen.

The list of governments that have taken control and then raped their own people is huge. Met a Cambodian killing fields survivor the other day......When it's bad, it's real bad.

Furthermore, Senator Wydens website has this germaine thought:
"Cyber vulnerabilities weaken cybersecurity. Once a backdoor is built in a security system, the security of the system is inherently compromised. For example, in 2005 it was revealed that an unknown entity had exploited a “lawful intercept” capability built into Greek cellphone systems and had used it to listen to users’ phone calls, including those of dozens of senior government officials."


On the Wyden web site:
Ron Wyden ✔ @RonWyden


Retweet to stand with me and tell the government no mandating backdoors into Americans’ technology. #EndThisDragnet http://1.usa.gov/1vm5qRZ
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 09:51am PT
Couch, it may be illegal but I see little evidence of anything being done
to bring those scum to justice. I guess it is too far above most cops' pay grade.
But we digress so we should just forget about something that is much more
likely to affect us.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 11:09am PT


You're a good dude Reilly, you think nothing is being done, I'm telling you that there is. The Army stuff is secret, but you can get regular news on other efforts.

"Within the U.S., there’s relatively little information on the prevalence of law enforcement hacking. The FBI only rarely discloses its use in criminal cases. Chris Soghoian, principal technologist with the American Civil Liberties Union’s Project on Speech, Privacy and Technology, who has closely tracked the FBI’s use of malware, says that agents use vague language when getting judges’ permission to hack devices. “This is a really, really, invasive tool,” Soghoian says. “If the courts don’t know what they’re authorizing, they’re not a good check on its use. If we as a society want malware to be used by the state, we ought to have a public debate.”"

or http://www.enigmasoftware.com/fbi-busts-fake-antivirus-rings-operation-trident-tribunal/

or http://www.batblue.com/european-police-and-the-us-fbi-coordinate-arrests-of-trojan-users-2/

Ergo on topic:
"FBI Shutdown of Virus Demanded New Anti-Hacker Tactics
By Del Quentin Wilber and Chris Strohm Jun 10, 2014 9:01 PM PT


Dismantling one of the world's most insidious computer viruses required complex and fast-paced tactics that will be the blueprint for U.S. law enforcement's future cyberbattles.

By the time authorities claimed victory over Gameover Zeus last week, they had reverse-engineered how the virus communicated, seized command-and-control servers overseas and engaged in cyber battle with the hackers to keep them from re-establishing contact with their fast evaporating network.

“This was the most sophisticated hacking disruption we have attempted to date,” said Leslie Caldwell, the assistant attorney general in charge of the U.S. Justice Department’s criminal division. “It was a hand-to-hand combat type of situation.”

The takedown of Gameover Zeus illustrates how U.S. law enforcement is adapting to the threat of increasingly sophisticated cyber crime. Slapping handcuffs on a hacker and seizing his or her computers is no longer enough. In this case, the virus -- which the FBI said had been used to siphon more than $100 million from U.S. consumers and businesses over three years -- was designed to survive such disruptions.

FBI officials said confronting such a network would have been difficult, if not impossible, a few years ago because the bureau didn’t have the technical expertise or the manpower to address it.
Shifting Approach

The operation was successful, in part, FBI officials said, because the bureau has shifted the way it approaches global cyber crime by boosting the number of agents trained in cyber security, deploying them more widely and by working more closely with experts in private industry.

Computer crimes cut “across every responsibility the FBI has,” Director James Comey testified last month before Congress. “The challenge we face with cyber is that it blows away normal concepts of time and space and venue, and requires us to shrink the world just the way the bad guys have.”

Stopping the hacker behind Gameover Zeus wasn’t enough. While federal prosecutors in May charged a 30-year-old Russian programmer named Evgeniy Bogachev in the case, they still had to kill the virus.
Global Coordination

FBI agents in Pittsburgh, Omaha and Washington spearheaded the investigation. The bureau was joined by law enforcement officials in Canada, Britain, Ukraine, the Netherlands and Luxembourg in the final assaults on nefarious servers.

Consultants at private companies including CrowdStrike Inc., Dell Corp.’s SecureWorks, Microsoft Corp. (MSFT), McAfee Inc., and Symantec Corp. (SYMC) were joined by specialists from Carnegie Mellon University and Georgia Tech, who provided key technical assistance.

It was “the largest fusion of law enforcement and industry partner cooperation ever undertaken in support of an FBI cyber operation,” Robert Anderson Jr., an executive assistant director at the bureau, said.

A variant of a virus first detected in 2007 that operated in a fairly standard fashion by infecting a computer and then communicating with a server controlled by hackers, Gameover Zeus operated like a hydra. According to federal authorities, it was controlled by a tightly knit group based primarily in Russia and Ukraine.
Infected Computers

Once a computer was infected, often after its user clicked on a malicious link or e-mail attachment, it became a “bot” and started communicating with other infected computers as part of a “botnet.” While communicating with each other, the bots also passed along stolen banking information to servers that relayed that data to the hackers.

The hackers committed their cyber burglary by exploiting the security hole bored by Gameover Zeus. When they determined the time was right, the hackers transfered funds from compromised bank accounts -- frequently in excess of $1 million -- through third parties known as “money mules.”

The virus was particularly insidious because it was designed to survive attacks. If authorities separately captured a bunch of bots, relay servers or even the hacker’s main computers, the rest of the system could keep operating until communication was re-established.
Financial Accounts

The FBI estimated that Gameover Zeus eventually infected as many as 1 million computers, about 250,000 in the U.S., and had access to financial accounts that held about $2 billion.

While Gameover Zeus mostly targeted computers operated by businesses, it was delivering a malware instrument called Cryptolocker that hit individuals, too. The virus encrypted a computer’s files and then demanded a fee, sometimes as much as $700, to release the documents, pictures or other personal information it was holding for ransom.

The operation to defeat it had to be carried out faster than the hackers could react. In court papers, the FBI said the hackers were capable of taking “simple, rapid steps to blunt or defeat the Government’s planned disruption.”

The first part of the operation took place in secret -- in government and private computer labs -- as engineers figured out ways to stop the bots from communicating with each other and then finding a way to block its failsafe mode.
Reverse Engineering

“We reverse engineered the malware,” said Adam Meyers, vice president of intelligence for CrowdStrike, a cyber security firm based in Laguna Niguel, California. “We found a way to prevent the adversary from putting in new commands to that network. Instead of talking to the hackers, they were talking to us.”

After additional testing ensured the technical phase would work, the consultants and U.S. law enforcement officials were ready to start seizing computers and servers in the network.

The first were command and control servers in the Ukrainian cities of Kiev and Donetsk on May 7. Although U.S. agents wanted to hit those servers closer to the start of the main operation on May 29, they decided they didn’t have a choice because the turmoil in Ukraine meant access couldn’t be guaranteed, according to two senior U.S. law enforcement officials who asked for anonymity because they were not permitted to talk about active investigations.

The FBI and consultants next examined the seized computers and learned more about how Gameover Zeus operated, and they tweaked their technical techniques to disrupt the network, the officials said.
Court Orders

Within days, Justice Department prosecutors and federal agents were on the phone with representatives of major Internet service providers and domain registries, alerting them to a pending court order that would require them to block infected computers from communicating with the hackers in Russia.

On May 19, federal prosecutors filed charges against Bogachev. Nine days after that, prosecutors obtained a court order in the U.S. permitting the government to redirect malware communications from the infected computers to its own servers. The order also allowed the government to gather information on what computers had been infected and to pass that information along to companies that could alert the victims.

To ensure Bogachev couldn’t take steps to save his network, the operation was carried out in secret.

Starting on Friday, May 30, law enforcement officials began what they described as fast-paced weekend of coordinated seizures of computers around the globe. They hit servers in Canada, France, Germany, Luxembourg, Ukraine and the U.K. As they took down the servers, the hackers caught on to what was transpiring and unsuccessfully tried to reclaim their bots through new servers and other methods, which the FBI and cyber experts blocked on the fly.

The weekend-long cyber duel freed more than 300,000 computers from the botnet, said Justice Department officials, who added they were working with Russian authorities to arrest and extradite Bogachev. They conceded that he and other hackers could still start over. Even so, the officials said, authorities had delivered a financial blow to the hackers’ enterprise -- severing them from $2 billion just waiting to be stolen. "


And of recent similar interest: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/193821-dark-market-massacre-fbi-shuts-down-silk-road-2-0-and-400-other-tor-websites


couchmaster

climber
Dec 23, 2014 - 08:20pm PT
3 weeks after that post I see this nugget and this is what I'm alluding too Reilly. I had no idea that the military budget on this was so large however.

"Little has been discussed in public about U.S. Cyber Command’s specific capabilities since, though budget documents detail a growing commitment to this form of warfare. The Pentagon’s cyberwarfare budget has grown from $3.9 billion in 2013 to $4.7 billion in 2014 and an estimated $5.1 billion in 2015."

Just because you don't read a thing on the front page every day does not mean the thing is not true. 4 billion dollars is an extensive effort, and that doesn't detail what other agencies other than United States Cyber Command (USCYBERCOM) are committed to. (ie, FBI, NSA, The Defense Information Systems Agency allied with large US corporations, etc etc


http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2013/0713_cyberdomain/


regards
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
serious question nwo2:

why do you write as if darker futures are inevitable... as if the powers that currently are and the intentions you surmise them to have, are unstoppable?

ie. it seems to me that individuals have more information, more power, more freedom than at any point in history and the primary two things that stop collective change from occurring are an inability to figure out what we are individually and collectively aiming towards [and away from] combined with a lack of awareness of how much power we as individuals and therefore as collectives actually have...

i get that we are in a time of incredible change and that as with all radical changes there are pitfalls to be avoided...

i just don't get pessimism that verges on fatalism...

seems to me that as with every other point in history the only way to guarantee a f*#ked outcome, is to assume that the f*#ked outcome is inevitable.

in this case we're at a point where we have more tools [both individually and collectively] that enable autonomy than at any point in history...

only way we retreat back deeper into the cave is if those who see some of the darker potentials [and i agree these definitely exist] view those potentials as inevitable.

the lack of action by the "sheep" is rarely the deciding factor.

an ability by those who know what they are working towards [and away from] to honestly assess their own individuated power and a will to take intrinsically consistent action [with that assessment] is and always has been the crux. [imesho]

peace.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2014 - 12:01am PT
nwo2:

what does the quote: Yes, many people will die when a New World Order is established, but it will be a much better world for those who survive. mean to me?

for the sake of argument i'm going to assume that that quote happened exactly as you've stated and your interpretation is 100% correct [and kissinger and a 13ish or so ruling families have a giant plan to bring about human genocide].

in that case and therefore for the sake of a point of argument, it would mean only the following two things to me:

1. there are people who are working towards futures that i don't want to put my energy towards.
2. those actively working towards said future are but individual wo/men who in their totality are small in number.

from those two meanings i would conclude the following:

1. their intended future is but one possible future.
2. they have no power to bring about that future without mass acquiescence.
3. i'm not going to waste any of my energy focusing on a negative that may or may not happen when i could focus on bringing about the future that i want to see happen. because ultimately assuming something is inevitable is just another form of acquiescence.



kissinger is exactly as you are: a living breathing human with incredible potential power that will one day die and be effectively forgotten.

why focus on his influence [or the 13 families or bildeberg or whoever supposedly has all the power] if it keeps you from manifesting your own influence in the world?

ie. who the f*#k cares about what all of the sick/psycopathic/evil individuals in the world intend... they have always existed and i'm sure they will always exist...

what i want to know is what is the future that you envision... the future that you're willing to live and die for?

and what are you doing to manifest that future?

focusing on an evil that may or may not happen is like being a deer caught in the headlights.

only reason the deer gets hit, is because it doesn't jump the f*#k out of the way...

in this case, the metaphor may simply be equated to a wasted life focused on things one has no power to change, when it's possible that one could have taken a single action that might have become the two from which came the three from which came the ten thousand...
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Dec 24, 2014 - 01:26am PT
papa bush (not capitalized) was big on saying your monicker!?
New world order. . .
He was not saying that it was coming, in the '80s. He was saying this was the brave new world.We were all going to be the test subjects for our children and we were.
After September eleventh as with after the Riechgstag Fire, the powers or the elite ...passed laws that were all encompassing and slid down the slope.
we are! phckd!



 1st visit to this thread I will have to go and puruse. . .??


after a quick scan I would add a lot about the Trilateralist theory, it's over view of what amounts to a theory of world domination.
It is Kind of think it was nieve to think that the government and all sorts of it's tentacles are pure in any way.








MERRY CHRISTMAS
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 27, 2014 - 11:03pm PT
In an age when computers and the Internet rule communications, it could be that old-fashioned radios are the true tools of the New World Order. That's because if you want to collaborate with other governments to oppress the masses, it's best not to leave a digitized trail -- you never know when an Edward Snowden might unravel your conspiracy. So instead, you'd send indecipherable details of your fiendish plots via numbers stations.

Since World War II, so-called numbers stations have been transmitting coded messages via shortwave radio antennas. These transmissions are eerie and weird to casual listeners, nonsensical and puzzling to cryptographers ... and to the right set of ears, may contain information that changes the course of history.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves. At their most basic, numbers stations are simply shortwave radio transmitters, generally operating between 3,000 and 30,000 kilohertz. They're located in many, many countries, but no one knows just how numerous they are. They often transmit strings of numbers or numbers intoned by a computerized-sounding voice. Others send broadcasts via Morse code or they just emit various types of noise.

Some stations have been airing their signals for decades, and hit their peaks during the Cold War. Many have gone quiet since the Berlin Wall fell. Untold others continue filling the airwaves -- yet for what purpose, few know. And those that do know? They aren't talking.

You could try backtracking through a paper trail to see who operates numbers stations. But unlike most transmitters, they aren't licensed to broadcast, so you won't find any record of them in government documents.

They are essentially pirate stations (meaning they operate unlicensed and illegally) but no government agency shuts them down. That's because the government most likely operates them. Of course, no organization or government officially accepts responsibility for numbers stations. They are strictly off the record.

A lot of journalists have tried to untangle the mystery of numbers stations. They've found enough information that we can safely guess the purpose of these transmitters: espionage.

Keep reading and you'll see why old-school numbers stations might be the greatest spy tool ever, even in the age of the Internet and satellite phones.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/numbers-stations.htm
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Dec 29, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
The NSA's Ongoing Efforts to Hide Its Lawbreaking
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/the-nsas-ongoing-effort-to-hide-its-lawbreaking/384079/
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jan 1, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
Self Destructing solid state drives. Now available for your notebook.

http://securedrives.co.uk/catalog/view/theme/default/image/pdf/English-SDSRDD-TechSheet.pdf

This is not data over-writing but actual NAND flash chip shattering explosives triggered under all conceivable scenarios.

If stolen
You send a text from anywhere in the world and bang.
Shield the drive from the cell phone network to long and bang.
Unplug the SATA cable and bang.
Low battery in the notebook.. bang.
Try to open the SSD's armor steel enclosure.. bang
Finger tap a code onto your app enabled smart phone (while in your pocket) sends the destruct code..bang. Same with the Token if in range of several yards..finger tap a code.. bang!

128GB 2.5" drive
$1,596.18 USD

http://securedrives.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=88&product_id=55

dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jan 12, 2015 - 11:18am PT
Government claims sole right to spy on us. Private sector spying will be crushed.

This marks the first-ever criminal conviction concerning the advertisement and sale of a mobile device spyware app.

Justice News: Govt grabs source code for mobile spyware app. Writer forced
to confess in court. Jailed and fined.

StealthGenie App can turn on smartphone mic, listen to all your phone
calls, read texts, copy pictures.
Govt demanded and now has the source code.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/man-pleads-guilty-selling-stealthgenie-spyware-app-and-ordered-pay-500000-fine


How to tell if Stealthgenie is installed on your cell phone.

http://blog.flexispy.com/remove-stealthgenie-iphone-android/
http://www.spyphonereview.com/five-ways-to-know-if-stealthgenie-is-on-your-android-phone/
http://acisni.com/is-there-spy-software-on-my-cell-phone-how-to-detect-being-monitored/
http://spyzrus.net/how-to-remove-spy-software-from-your-cell-phone/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 12, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
Great.

Now that I've clicked one of those links I have probably installed spyware.....
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
:-)

http://threatpost.com/how-a-10-usb-charger-can-record-your-keystrokes-over-the-air/110367
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 13, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
Pretty much comes down to would you rather not know the scope of NSA's activities. I'd say he's done us a service.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jan 13, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
I completely agree, healyje.

Below is a link to a transcript of a James Bamford interview with Snowden, for a documentary to be released later this year.

Snowden criticizes the NSA for not working to help fix security flaws, and instead saving these exploits to break into systems. Meanwhile, everyone else is using the exploits, and the US has the most to lose.

Edward Snowden on Cyber Warfare

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/military/snowden-transcript/

[Click to View YouTube Video]
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jan 27, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
On whistleblowing:

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/01/27/guilty-verdict-cia-agent-called-new-low-war-whistleblowers


Yeah, have Snowden come and "face the music." What a bunch of bastards.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 13, 2015 - 08:56am PT
Interesting live conversation from yesterday, with Laura Poitras (Director of CitizenFour), Glen Greenwald, and Edward Snowden (the latter via videoconference):

http://timestalks.com/laura-poitras-glenn-greenwald-edward-snowden.html
couchmaster

climber
Feb 13, 2015 - 10:13am PT
Thanks Kunlan:
"Laura Poitras, Glenn Greenwald and Edward Snowden with David Carr
Thursday, Feb. 12, 2015"



And as if on cue right afterwards - today - David Carr dies. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/business/media/david-carr-media-equation-columnist-for-the-times-is-dead-at-58.html?_r=0

"Mr. Carr collapsed in the Times newsroom, where he was found shortly before 9 p.m. He was taken to St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

Earlier in the evening, he moderated a panel discussion about the film “Citizenfour” with its principal subject, Edward J. Snowden; the film’s director, Laura Poitras; and Glenn Greenwald, a journalist."...........
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Feb 13, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:44am PT
Cool that Laura Poitras's film, Citizenfour, about Snowden, won Best Documentary Feature for 2014 at the Academy Awards. More people will get to see this.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/laura-poitras-citizenfour-awarded-oscar-best-documentary-2014
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 23, 2015 - 11:11am PT
CitizenFour wins an Oscar!

Watched the replay and could not help but check out the 'guns'
on Laura Poitras. The TSA harassing her every time she enters our
country may actually have something to fear as she writes
their names down with a little pencil stub..
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
COMCAST CH 801 HBOHW playing CitizenFour 9-11pm PST now


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Feb 23, 2015 - 09:52pm PT
Here's an interesting Laura Poitras video, about State Department analyst Stephen Kim, sentenced for leaking information about North Korea to the press:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/the-surrender

Background story: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/02/18/destroyed-by-the-espionage-act
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 24, 2015 - 07:22am PT
I still get the creepy feeling Snowden might be nothing more than an advanced form of the billboards in Orwell's 1984 with "Big Brother is Watching YOU".

First off, he's not dead. The regime in power now wouldn't allow him to exist if he truly were a threat.

Nothing ever changes with any of these "amazing tales of deceit", people simply become used to being pathetic subjects under an evil microscope. And the details are sorely lacking in regards to placing blame. Few names are ever mentioned.

An interesting way to deter dissent for a bit...

But who knows, the layers of BS are now so thick and plentiful it becomes impossible to know the truth.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
Mar 4, 2015. Whistleblower Edward Snowden took part in a teleconferenced discussion hosted by the CJFE and Ryerson School of Journalism

[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 4, 2015 - 08:24pm PT
First off, he's not dead. The regime in power now wouldn't allow him to exist if he truly were a threat.

Well, if you were talking W's crew true, otherwise I'd say you're spot on with that moniker of yours.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 4, 2015 - 10:23pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
jonnyrig

climber
May 7, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
Wait... What?!?

That story quoted above said LIBERALS are involved in pushing for a removal of government interference...
There MUST be some kind of malicious conspiracy involved...
Have you people SEEN what's going on over here?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2620532/Ontario-Walmart
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 2, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
Rand Paul got it done, almost singlehandedly.

Remember that!

It will also not make any difference since we have an administration (and a majority of senators from both parties)that believe that the law and the Constitution don't apply to them.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 5, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
ALL YOUR DATABASE ARE BELONG TO US

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-a-series-of-hacks-china-appears-to-building-a-database-on-americans/2015/06/05/d2af51fa-0ba3-11e5-95fd-d580f1c5d44e_story.html
son of stan

Boulder climber
San Jose CA
Jun 23, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
The open-source browser Chromium and the official Google Chrome browser
both automatically opt you 'in' to their black box of code that

–turns on your microphone and actively listens to your room,
-converts it to text,
-sends what it hears over the internet to servers that will
either decide to forward it to the NSA or simply raise the volume on your
music playback like you asked.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jun/23/google-eavesdropping-tool-installed-computers-without-permission

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/malicious-intent-can-turn-chrome-speech-recognition-into-spying-device/



couchmaster

climber
Jun 24, 2015 - 06:35am PT
Fear said -quote:
"First off, he's not dead. The regime in power now wouldn't allow him to exist if he truly were a threat."
Healyje replied:
"Well, if you were talking W's crew true, otherwise I'd say you're spot on with that moniker of yours."
Why do you give Obama a pass? Somehow you seemed to have missed that it is THIS administration, not the last one, that is killing American people they believe to be threats without trials or attempts at trials. You appear to not have noticed that this is Obama, not Bush, doing this. Not giving Bush a pass here as we have already discussed that ad nausea back when it was current. Here, read this from a left-wing publication for example in case you don't know what I'm discoursing here. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/10/how-team-obama-justifies-the-killing-of-a-16-year-old-american/264028/

or-
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?_r=0




Perhaps you can point to the constitution and show me where the founders believed that the President could or should approve weekly killings and not just without due process or trial, but avoid it? (Al-Alawakis father tried the court systems for his son and it was tossed out). Killings of underage Americans, some of whom appear from the outside to have done nothing more than thought crime. Where is that said it is OK? Maybe it's a provision in the commerce clause and I missed it. You continue to blame a President who is long gone, but not the one who has been doing this sh#t for 6 years.

Further, have you also missed that despite calls before the election that they would be open and transparent, this administration prosecutes whistle blowers who leak secrets much more than ANY other. Ever. This despite signing off on some whistle blower protections early on. http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jan/10/jake-tapper/cnns-tapper-obama-has-used-espionage-act-more-all-/

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/04/obama-has-prosecuted-more-whistleblowers-than-all-other-presidents-combined.html



Why do you give them a pass? Because they promised "hope and change". It didn't come, in case you might have missed that part. Do you think that the people who conducted Operation Northwoods did not leave successors? http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jul 1, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/07/01/nsas-google-worlds-private-communications/

XKEYSCORE: NSA’s Google for the World’s Private Communications

One of the National Security Agency’s most powerful tools of mass surveillance makes tracking someone’s Internet usage as easy as entering an email address, and provides no built-in technology to prevent abuse.

Today, The Intercept is publishing 48 top-secret and other classified documents about XKEYSCORE dated up to 2013, which shed new light on the breadth, depth and functionality of this critical spy system — one of the largest releases yet of documents provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Dec 17, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
From an article today:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/12/obama-terrorism-san-bernardino/420972/

In the days after the attack in San Bernardino, federal investigators determined the shooters, Syed Rizwan Farook and his wife, Tashfeen Malik, were inspired by Islamist extremists and had spoken of jihad online as long ago as 2013. But those communications were “private direct messages,” the FBI said, and would not have been detected by U.S. intelligence employees.

Obama said national security officials will use the San Bernardino shooting to“learn whatever lessons we can and make any improvements that are needed.”


Here we see the campaign to make legal the ubiquitous capture of all private communications between US citizens. Before the political zealots get all partisan about this-- it's not a divisive issue between democrats or republicans. It's deeper than that.

The fight is on. Will we wake up and do something about it before it is too late? Carrying guns isn't the way to fight this battle. Talking about it, being informed of the issues, and holding our elected officials accountable for making laws and enforcing laws that protect the citizenry from the government- that is the way.

I just re-read something I wrote in 2014 on this thread, and I still think it is very relevant:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2157116&tn=1683


The challenge is how we as a society authorize our government to keep us on a path of democratic ideals and life that we prefer, between two opposing forces that threaten these:
1) Foreign powers that would like to topple US and send us back to the stone age, Sharia law, etc.
2) US shadow/hidden government (powerful people? corporations?) that uses people's fear of #1 to give up basic freedoms and societal expectations to give more power to an emergent elite/ruling class whilst the remainder of society lives under constant surveillance, and in complete fear and powerlessness.

The tightrope of democracy....
couchmaster

climber
May 3, 2016 - 11:37am PT
Well spoken Nutagain! Snowden surfaces writing the forward for "The Assassination Complex". http://www.amazon.com/Assassination-Complex-Governments-Warfare-Program/dp/1501144138 Says a lot of things worth reading and reflecting on in this story: (link) https://theintercept.com/2016/05/03/edward-snowden-whistleblowing-is-not-just-leaking-its-an-act-of-political-resistance/

"These disclosures about the Obama administration’s killing program reveal that there’s a part of the American character that is deeply concerned with the unrestrained, unchecked exercise of power. And there is no greater or clearer manifestation of unchecked power than assuming for oneself the authority to execute an individual outside of a battlefield context and without the involvement of any sort of judicial process."

I'm not sure I'm quite so optimistic as he is. He ends it thus, quote:
...."we, the people, are ultimately the strongest and most reliable check on the power of government. The insiders at the highest levels of government have extraordinary capability, extraordinary resources, tremendous access to influence, and a monopoly on violence, but in the final calculus there is but one figure that matters: the individual citizen.

And there are more of us than there are of them."
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
May 3, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
Consider a dirty bomb or suitcase nuke in the heart of New York's financial district. 100 square blocks shut down for hundreds of years due to radiation.

Now think of a Clinton or Trump Administration with unfettered data collection in the context of blackmail and coercion.

The trajectory of transparency, honesty and class this presidency has set is heading for a brick wall I'm afraid. Obama- pull the plug on data collection NOW and seal the files!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 3, 2016 - 12:47pm PT
Having read through a fair number of responses on this thread I'm struck by the juxtaposition of some posters crying for privacy and freedom, who coincidentally post as a advocate for further government control on numerous other threads.

The cognitive dissonance created by their desire to have government work for them when convenient but appear indignant when its not must be painful.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
May 3, 2016 - 01:17pm PT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frumentarii


By the 2nd century, the need for an empire-wide intelligence service was clear. But even an emperor could not easily create a new bureau with the express purpose of spying on the citizens of Rome's far-flung domains. A suitable compromise was found by Hadrian. He envisioned a large-scale operation and turned to the frumentarii. The frumentarius was the collector of wheat in a province, a position that brought the official into contact with enough locals and natives to acquire considerable intelligence about any given territory. Hadrian put them to use as his spies, and thus had a ready-made service and a large body to act as a courier system.



The Frumentarii were the equivalent of the postal service in ancient Rome.

Emperor Hadrian appropriated them for use as his personal spies, because they were ideally suited for intercepting and reading mail sent throughout the Empire.



If you're not doing anything illegal, government spying doesn't affect you. Go back to sleep.

or,

Anyone who objects to wholesale government spying must be doing something illegal, so it is necessary to spy on everyone to find out just who those people are.

Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
May 3, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
Escopeda- I think I can elaborate on that point, as I see it-

As long as the police state is hammering on Ragheads, Niggas, and Mexicans- fine.

But the IRS, DEA, and ATF had better stay clear of my tax evasion, guns, drugs and porn.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
Escopeta wrote: "I'm struck by the juxtaposition of some posters crying for privacy and freedom, who coincidentally post as a advocate for further government control on numerous other threads"

could be...

without specifics it smells like a straw man...
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 9, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
You have skills, find the specifics yourself. In fact, to make the search easier...just hit the "My Settings" link in the upper right-hand corner and click on "Your Forum Posts". Lol
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2016 - 03:26pm PT
^^^^

nah, if you don't care to have a discussion, i'm good with not wasting energy attempting to read minds...

ie. it's too bad, that with the lines above, you've chosen to drop the depth of argumentation and substantiation back down to a grade school level...

because, actual discussion with you, was, while it lasted, interesting...

so with sincerity, it's too bad that that appears to be a thing of the past.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 9, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
I wish I could say the same. As they say, "talkin' ain't doin". This all leads to one outcome anyway. Hope it happens after I die and not visa versa.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2016 - 11:37pm PT
^^^^

noted.

toodles...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 10, 2016 - 12:08am PT
Not giving anyone a 'pass', the difference is who they are willing to target. Obama wouldn't target Snowden; W's crew would have in my opinion.

But, the legal confabulations associated with the 'war on terror' - whether it's John Yoo's Quasi-Constitutional Phantom Zone or Obama's - all are designed to erect a shelter of 'due diligence' rather than a finding of outright constitutionality which frankly everyone understands isn't there.

And those legal confabulations around the 'game', be it the Constitution, the Patriot Act, FISA court, or the legal findings associated with the NSA's domestic collection activities - all serve to highlight the basic conundrum: there are real dangerous people out in the world who want to do harm to the US on our soil. The fact acknowledged, the hard question - to steal a line - is, "what are you prepared to do about it?"

Take, say, a small, well-shielded nuke with a gps destination trigger in a shipping container - what lengths would you denizens of ST go to stop it from making port in LA or NY?

I don't see it as a black and white issue; I see it as a terminally grey one with no upsides, no good options, and the price of failure unthinkable. Personally, I don't believe for a minute Bernie would be making much different calls if he were to win the election, it's that brutal.

Probably the best legal rundown on these issues:



And his exploration of the recent roots of the revival of the imperial presidency:


Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 10, 2016 - 04:30am PT
50 pages of feigned outrage and concerned analysis and then 99% of the folks (who vote) will put the exact same people in office.

Yeah, you guys are outraged alright. I can really tell this time. Meh
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 10, 2016 - 06:31am PT
I'm still amused that anyone thinks the president(whoever it may be) really calls the shots anymore...

IMO, the Snowden 'leaks' were the equivalent of the "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" billboards from Orwell's instruction manual for today. Nobody got arrested, nobody went to jail, nobody lost their jobs. Just enough was leaked to announce the eye of Sauron is upon us. Suppressing dissent becomes critical at the end of empires.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
May 10, 2016 - 07:09am PT
Only when I'm off my meds.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 10, 2016 - 07:12am PT
I'm still amazed that people think the president is the only thing you vote for anymore in this country....
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
May 10, 2016 - 07:47am PT
Wow Esco, what a zinger!
Keep up the good work.
couchmaster

climber
Sep 7, 2016 - 09:16pm PT


The conversation of this thread is damned stilted with Rsin and Joe Hedge being deleted along with all their posts. Looks like some folks are yammering to themselves, LOL!

I like a lot of what folks have said up thread. Most of us are right in our views. Even when we disagree. That's how complex this topic is. Enjoyed reading HealyJE's reasoned posts, even - or usually, when we disagree.

Todays Snowden news, great interview with Oliver Stone. He touches on Hillary and Trump as well. Well worth the read of the entire thing: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/oliver-stone-edward-snowden-america-925611 Stone is coming out with a Snowden film. Expected to be a 9 on the rabblerousing scale of 1-10:-)



BTW, 2 big issues. Debt per taxpayer is now $163,000, which is how much YOU owe. YOU. If you cannot pay that bill, then your kids will have to do it. Maybe they'll thank you for that. NOT!

Next- update on Senator Wydens bill noted above, the "secure Data Act" I note above all but got sh#t on (by being ignored) and tossed into the trash.

Introduced: Jan 8, 2015
Status: Referred to Committee on Jan 8, 2015
This bill was assigned to a congressional committee on January 8, 2015, which will consider it before possibly sending it on to the House or Senate as a whole.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 7, 2016 - 11:34pm PT
Not giving anyone a 'pass', the difference is who they are willing to target. Obama wouldn't target Snowden; W's crew would have in my opinion.

Conversely, Bush never went after Bin Laden, son of a guy the Bush family was partners with in the Carlisle Group.

And the Bin Ladens were the only flight permitted to leave the country when the Towers fell.


No Senate investigation.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 7, 2016 - 11:40pm PT
NEVER went after Bin Laden? Proof? Yet another stupid statement by lorenza's oil.

Did they get him?

Again. No senate investigation of ties to Bin Laden family


But we did get. BENGHAZI!!!!!
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 7, 2016 - 11:45pm PT
No, but I can translate English to retard for ya.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/george-w-bush-and-the-bin-laden-family-meet-in-new-york-city-one-day-before-911/5332870
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Sep 8, 2016 - 12:23am PT
[quote]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bin-laden-family-evacuated/[/quote]

Common sense says that if the entire nation is on lockdown and no flights get out but bin Laden's brother's plane and he's partners with Bush, the senate might want to ask why.

They asked about BENGHAZI!!!!

Here's another Carlisle group partner, since you mentioned him.


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 8, 2016 - 12:23am PT
Interesting story about Ed Snowden's escape from Hong Kong:

http://news.nationalpost.com/features/how-edward-snowden-escaped-hong-kong

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 8, 2016 - 12:49am PT
https://www.instagram.com/lsjourney/

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 12, 2016 - 06:58pm PT
Information release from The Intercept of secret manuals on "Stingrays" (cell-site simulators), and how law enforcement spies on cell phones:

https://theintercept.com/2016/09/12/long-secret-stingray-manuals-detail-how-police-can-spy-on-phones/

couchmaster

climber
Sep 18, 2016 - 07:18am PT


Titled: Should Snowden Pardon President Obama? The upshot is that what the President is endorsing and allowing is illegal as hell, and he (and Bush) will never face charges for it. Interesting spin on the issue.

http://townhall.com/columnists/pauljacob/2016/09/18/should-snowden-pardon-president-obama-n2219876

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Nov 25, 2016 - 05:21pm PT
This is mistitled to seem about Trump, but Trump is a non-issue here.

This is about bigger ideas, and I find Snowden to be quite articulate in making important points:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

The beginning part from Phil Zimmermann is a bit self-serving, but to be fair, the inventor of PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) deserves to get credit for making the tools that enable us to "fight back." All of the redneck gun nuts who tout the 2nd Ammendment should really be idolizing Phil Zimmerman, because it is his privacy tools that will be the weapons to fight against present and future abusive governments- not guns.


Edit: If you don't have the attention span for the whole thing, here is the pith:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

The central argument from my perspective: imagine a world with perfect enforcement of all existing laws, supported by a total surveillance environment. On the surface it seems like a good thing, "if I am not doing anything wrong I don't have anything to hide." But consider how every advancement of social justice from the abolition of slavery, to women's rights to vote, to LGBT folks not having to hide themselves from the public... imagine if all of the injustices that still exist in the world will never go away, and that the government can become like a boa constrictor to continually squeeze down on our rights, and we have no tools left to push back. If we accept 100% law enforcement, we accept a cessation of human progress and creating a more just society.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 10, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
Chatter about Russia returning Snowden

http://www.10news.com/news/national/russia-could-return-edward-snowden-as-a-gift-to-president-trump-reports-say
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 10, 2017 - 06:28pm PT
Y'all do know that another traitor has been discovered? The media has
basically passed on it in favor of frothing over the travel ban.

"The indictment alleges that Harold Thomas Martin, 52, spent up to 20 years
stealing highly sensitive government material from the U.S. intelligence
community related to national defense, collecting a trove of secrets he
hoarded at his home in Glen Burnie, Maryland.

The government has not said what, if anything, Martin did with the stolen data.
Martin faces 20 criminal counts, each punishable by up to 10 years in
prison, the Justice Department said."


http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/nsa-contractor-indicted-over-mammoth-theft-of-classified-data/ar-AAmJWKj?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

Hmmm, 200 years in Leavenworth sounds a little lite.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Feb 10, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
Excellent talk by Snowden.
Disappointing, but not surprising that Obama didn't pardon him.
Thanks for posting.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Feb 10, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
Y'all do know that another traitor has been discovered?

I recall when that guy was found out. The news story was that though he was in possession of "a lot" of sensitive stuff, it seemed he had done nothing other than collect it, and seemed like it was an emotional instability "hoarding" type thing going on.

Of course I have no idea what the truth of the matter is, but I would argue that a person does not become a "traitor" until they use whatever information or skill they have to undermine their country. It's kind of like this thing a fellow trail crew guy said: What is the difference between a rock, and a stone?


Answer: A rock becomes a stone when it receives its purpose.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 8, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I don't mean to freak you out with it, but I think it's true:
Even our memories are not absolutely private in America.
Any of us can be compelled, in appropriate circumstances, to say what we remember, what we saw. Even our communications with our spouses, with our clergy members, with our attorneys, are not absolutely private in America....

In appropriate circumstances, a judge can tell any one of us to testify in court about those very private communications. And there are really really important constraints on law enforcement as there should be. But the general principle is one we've always accepted in this country. There is no such thing as absolute privacy in America. There is no place in America outside of judicial reach. That's the bargain. We made that bargain over two centuries ago....

Widespread default encryption changes that bargain. In my view it shatters the bargain.

Comey is presenting a twisted and historically revisionist version of our privacy rights and expectations to lay the groundwork for banning encryption technologies. Note that the existing exceptions to privacy that Comey cites can still be enforced in the presence of encryption. Encryption is about protecting information in storage and in transit. What he wants is the ability to intercept private communications and act without needing to compel a witness to testify. Encryption technologies are not an assault on the following privileges or exceptions to them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal_privilege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorney%E2%80%93client_privilege

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest%E2%80%93penitent_privilege

If he spoke in terms of lawful intercept and wiretapping mechanisms, there might be room for a discussion. But thanks to Snowden, we know that our government has violated the contract with its citizens in terms of using lawful means to selectively surveil people. Not only is the government unrepentant about that, but is doubling down to tell us we never had the right in the first place. The real problem is that encryption technologies thwart the ILLEGAL activities of our government, and it pisses them off when they can't do what they have become accustomed to illegally doing.

To be fair, I do recognize a problem of real criminals using these technologies to stop lawful surveillance. But it is the government that started the problem by breaking the trust of the public, and the public has access to tools to protect us all from an overreaching government. Encryption technologies would not have been so popular if governments had not overextended their reach, but in any case the problem would have come to a head at some point. I don't have a good solution right now, but I think we are throwing out the baby with the bath water if we give up our expectation of privacy.

How soon will it be before we are allowed to own fully-auto assault rifles with enlarged magazines, but owning or writing encryption software will land you in Guantanamo?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 8, 2017 - 02:52pm PT
As a counterpoint to Comey's recent efforts to reset our expectations about privacy, listen to Phil Zimmermann's experiences (creator of the first widespread encryption tool) in relation to human rights, peaceful protests, and FBI violations that inspired the creation of these tools:

Start watching at 10 minutes, 10 seconds:
https://youtu.be/4ww8AAkWFhM?t=10m10s

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Check out his reflections on facing seemingly "hopeless" situations and how that tends to paralize people from trying to solve them. This resonates strongly with me, and inspires me:
https://youtu.be/HuHm1vzzm1g?t=36m0s

Jump to 36 minutes 0 seconds:
[Click to View YouTube Video]

WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
Comey is an azzhole and you can't believe a word that prick spits out ......
c wilmot

climber
Mar 8, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
NWO- you forgot comment boards and sites like facebook. People essentially build a profile of themselves for the govt every time they post a comment online. I wouldn't doubt the use of facebook during the Egypt revolution was simply a dry run at both identifying potential domestic enemies and gauging how well facebook could be used to influence behavior.

Our govt has been spying on and suppressing the people since the violent protests of the Great Depression.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 8, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
The video I posted above (DEFCON 22) has anecdote shared by Phil Zimmermann that exemplifies why he doesn't like Public Key Infrastructures for private communications. In short:
 someone stole the signing key for a root certificate authority (a company in Netherlands)
 they gave the info to the Iranian government
 They used the stolen key to generate fake certificates for google, gmail, facebook, etc... This basically tricks web browsers to trust fake websites that are masquerading as those main services. So any people in Iran trying to reach those websites, thinking they were secure and encrypted, were actually connected to fake instances of the government (silent man-in-the-middle attacks to spy on information that was believed to be secure in transit)
 the Iranian government used that information to identify and apprehend dissidents
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/09/post-mortem-iranian-diginotar-attack


NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 8, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
And for people who are wondering what they can do about it... here is one tool:
https://darkmail.info/

I would like to dedicate this project to the National Security Agency. For better or worse, good or evil, what follows would not have been created without you. Because sometimes upholding constitutional ideas just isn’t enough; sometimes you have to uphold the actual Constitution. May god bless these United States of America. May she once again become the land of the free and home of the brave. --Ladar Levison


DIME strives to create a secure communications platform for asynchronous messaging across the Internet. The key design element which differentiates DIME from traditional Internet electronic mail (email) is the use of end-to-end encryption. The incorporation of encryption directly into the protocols ensures the secure and reliable delivery of email,
while providing for message confidentiality, tamper protection, and a dramatic reduction in the leakage of metadata to processing agents encountered along the delivery path. To the extent possible, we have made DIME resistant to manipulation, but a secure system is only as strong as its weakest link. The goal with DIME has been, wherever possible, to make the security of the system depend on the complexity of a user’s password, and the strength of their endpoint’s defenses.
WBraun

climber
Mar 8, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
WikiLeaks on Tuesday published thousands of documents purportedly taken from the Central Intelligence Agency’s

"purportedly" they say as usual.

You can't believe one word coming out of wikileaks.

A total tool of disinfo .....
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Mar 8, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
CIA docs are genuine.

But why can't this geek get Trump's tax returns?
This why?

Oct. 10, 2016

Trump: "I love WikiLeaks!"

Where: A campaign rally in Pennsylvania
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 8, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
Werner, the motivations and intentions of the release of info is certainly subject to question, and the choice of what to release is subject to manipulation, but there is legit stuff in these releases.

My first glance into it, looks like a planning session among software developers for how to solve specific problems, achieve specific objectives. It's just that the objectives (for the first thing I am looking at) are how to breach endpoint security and send beacons back to the mothership as a precursor to remote control. I am not seeing source code, but the discussions are not technical bullsh#t. It's real. It's like a training manual for someone like me if I went to work for the CIA. It points to specific tools they have and details of how to use them, where to find resources, where to find reference standards for the protocols they are subverting, etc. For example the first thing I am looking at is details about EFI/UEFI which is the modern version of how computers boot up. Hacks to this can bypass all operating system security and have a hacker's software running at a layer below the operating system, capturing keystrokes or running other bad stuff in the background while the computer user has no idea what is happening. I have slightly more awareness of this in the last month because I had to hack a cheap Acer laptop that ships with Windows 10 but I wanted to run Linux for music software. They put in mechanisms to block people from doing this, worthy of Anti-Trust prosecution. The only way to get around it is to trick the computer to run something else (e.g. renaming your linux instance to the same name they have hard-coded for Windows in violation of the EFI/UEFI standards) by changing a few variables in low-level files.


So while the technical stuff looks real (but what I see is not a full-disclosure step by step playbook how to implement the hacks), the disinformation is more nuanced in terms of timing of release to mask other news stories, who is the target to be discredited at the moment, etc... all that can be nefarious. But technical truth is truth. Anything can be weaponized, including truth.


Edit: Pretty fishy thing... I was looking at a project called "Green Packet" which appears to be a way of setting up a secure tunnel to a Green Packet router, ostensibly to extract data from service providers around the world using those products? There is a Wikipedia page for Green Packet that looks like a company started in Cupertino (headquarters for Apple and not much else) and moved to Malaysia... So was it a USA company made international, and then embedded in companies around the world to not look American? All the links in the Wikipedia page are invalid, either because someone is scrubbing data or it is a fake thing with a shallow cover story. Lots of links to old awards or old stories that I can't quickly dig up. Weird. Done with my tinfoil hat for the day, need to get more work done instead.



https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/cms/page_13763790.html

This looks to me a lot like what I would expect if I was working in a small team in a bureaucracy trying to solve the same technical problems they are trying to solve, a mix of the technical roadmap and silly politics of how to get your group noticed or how to engage with other teams. If it is fake, someone went to an almost inconceivable amount of effort to pull it off. I have to believe that effort is better spent in building real hacker tools than in trying to pose as an "enemy" as part of a psy-ops effort to make an embarrassing or misleading leak with all b.s. materials.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
"there is no place in American life outside of judicial reach. That's the bargain... Widespread default encryption changes that bargain."

what an absolute and complete load of horse shIt.

the bargain has always been thusly: the state can get a court order as per the fourth ammendment and authorities can threaten with jail time those who don't comply with said court order.

as far as i am aware, there has never been an agreeement between the state and the american people that said a person couldn't use better locks, or secret codes to communicate, or that they couldn't choose jail over compliance.

what comey is advocating for is not compliance but control. he wants to be able to force access to a person's technological property. regardless of how he skews words, he can not do this now regarding someone's memories. "compel" is a world apart from "force".

comey is not satisfied with only being able to "compel" and is using manipulative language to subtly argue that "compelling" and "controlling" are the same.

they are not.



i used to keep an open mind about comey. no longer. he is a snake tongued devil selling one of the cardinal foundations of totalitarianism as "security".

only way he could prove me wrong, regarding his being a charlatan, would be for him to open all of his communications to the public.

he never will.

so fUck his attempt to undermine the foundations of dissent.



the encrypted letter using founding fathers are rolling over in their graves as we speak.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 8, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
And for people who are wondering what they can do about it... here is one tool:
https://darkmail.info/

I like and use Protonmail myself:

https://protonmail.com/

End-to-End Encryption
Messages are encrypted at all times

Messages are stored on ProtonMail servers in encrypted format. They are also transmitted in encrypted format between our servers and user devices. Messages between ProtonMail users are also transmitted in encrypted form within our secure server network. Because data is encrypted at all steps, the risk of message interception is largely eliminated.

Zero Access to User Data
Your encrypted data is not accessible to us

ProtonMail's zero access architecture means that your data is encrypted in a way that makes it inaccessible to us. Data is encrypted on the client side using an encryption key that we do not have access to. This means we don't have the technical ability to decrypt your messages, and as a result, we are unable to hand your data over to third parties. With ProtonMail, privacy isn't just a promise, it is mathematically ensured. For this reason, we are also unable to do data recovery. If you forget your password, we cannot recover your data.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Mar 9, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
CIA docs are genuine.

But why can't this geek get Trump's tax returns?

I would also like to know why Wikileaks is always supporting Donald Trump's agenda. When Trump was running against Hillary, only DNC/Podesta emails were hacked and released. Now that Trump is basically at war with US intelligence agencies, a massive amount of CIA secrets are hacked and released. Seems like more than coincidence.

Curt
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 9, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
Thanks for that pointer Kunlun. Have you dug into their earlier weaknesses to see if they are still present?
 no easy way to verify that you are encrypting a message to the correct recipient (maybe it's using the keys of ProtonMail too so they can keep a copy? The trust model is a little ugly without digging into techie methods of client-side verification. I may be off base on this, haven't played with it myself
 they used to use javascript to push the client code for encrypting/decrypting the message with the mailbox key... but if they were compelled by a government agency or through some other threat, they could change that javascript to trick you into giving up your mailbox key. But if the client is a native iPhone/Android App or web-browser plugin, then the same code runs for everyone and other people can detect and report those security compromises and at least it would become public knowledge.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Mar 9, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
Curt, I'd go a step further: Wikileaks only seems to take actions that damages western democracies. We don't see anything from Russia, nothing from China or North Korea, all hotbeds of cyberattacks throughout the world.

Seems like an anarchist agenda to me.

Why don't they release Trumps income taxes: they don't see a benefit TO THEM to doing so.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 10, 2017 - 11:33am PT
DMT: . . . US interests at heart . . . .


And what ARE those? Is the U.S. the standard bearer for all things democratic, fair, equal, compassionate? Shall it see it as its mission to spread, maintain, protect those values to other countries? Or is it the same as many other countries (Russia included): self-preservation: creating a position to defend against different ideas, values, and loyalties; putting its citizens’ own welfare ahead of other people in the world?

It’s a bit ambiguous, isn’t it? Our math friends might want to employ game theory to tell us how we should proceed, but game theory assumes clear, somewhat unequivocal, and non-conflicting objectives.

We are a fragmented nation in so many ways. This happens to be one of democracy’s problems no matter where it shows up. In time, there develops a lack of unity, and a diminishment of intellectual and moral capabilities to deal with issues facing a democracy.

Visit Alexis de Toqueville’s, “Democracy in America” (1835). Wiki summarizes Toqueville’s treatise casually in the following manner:

According to Tocqueville, democracy had some unfavorable consequences: the tyranny of the majority over thought, a preoccupation with material goods, and isolated individuals. Democracy in America predicted the violence of party spirit and the judgment of the wise subordinated to the prejudices of the ignorant.

Of course, just who is ignorant and who is prejudiced may turn the interpretation from one side to another. (Ignorant of what?)
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Mar 10, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
+1 Dingus

Could be a "white hat" type person that wants the info out so all systems can be more secure to enforce a more idealistic balance of power between any government and private entities.

Could be a person that just wants to take down the biggest kid on the block.

Could be a few brave people acting with little support or safety net, and Wikileaks is a sort of rallying point for these "lone wolf" whistle-blowers.

Could be state players

Could the CIA itself as part of a trick to underplay what their capabilities really are, a sort of lulling the enemies into a false sense of security.

Who knows?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2017 - 07:48am PT
Could also be just some pathetic soul with no life who sees this as his chance to be somebody.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Apr 21, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
Cybersecurity for the People: How to Protect Your Privacy at a Protest

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/21/cybersecurity-for-the-people-how-to-protect-your-privacy-at-a-protest/
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 22, 2017 - 07:47am PT
Thanks Kunlun, good timing for the March for Science today:
https://www.marchforscience.com
https://www.marchforscience.com/satellite-marches/

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/science/march-for-science.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/04/22/historians-say-the-march-for-science-is-pretty-unprecedented/

I think Neil deGrasse Tyson sums it up pretty well:
"Show me a Nation with a science-hostile government, and I'll show you a society with failing health, wealth, & security."

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Apr 22, 2017 - 10:17am PT
Very informative, interesting exchange between Gen M Hayden and Sam Harris on the waking up podcast this week. Eg, distinction between NSA and CIA, the necessity of espionage and intelligence, the constantly shifting, negotiated line bet privacy and security, and a bunch of other stuff (why Snowden should be prosecuted if he were captured or ever to return and the harm he's done).

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/privacy-and-security


Is government secrecy always illegitimate?

"Shame on us for giving them the opportunity..." -Hayden


...

PS There's this actor, Kurtwood Smith, who could play General Hayden to a t I bet.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 18, 2017 - 11:37pm PT
Risking her life, and now free.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BUPbwX0htrw/?taken-by=xychelsea87

Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
May 19, 2017 - 05:13am PT
whoa is that a real freckle?

speaking of people who share secrets...
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/19/europe/julian-assange-sweden-charges-dropped/index.html

and yeah I know it's cnn

hfcs, thanks for the link
F

climber
away from the ground
May 19, 2017 - 10:32am PT
Is that the chick that Cosmic doesn't like?
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
May 19, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
Zero Hedge reports that Seth Rich, a DNC functionary, had been in contact with Wikileaks and is the likely source of the leaked DNC emails.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-05-16/murdered-dnc-staffer-seth-rich-shared-44000-emails-wikileaks

So far the MSM have been suppressing this story. It would invalidate their case that Russia was behind this. Also note, Julian Assange has said that it was not Russia.

Rich was murdered, shot in the back as he was walking home at night. This was officially attributed to robbery, but nothing was taken.

aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 19, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
Years ago, Bill Buckley and Gore Vidal debated the death penalty, with Buckley for, and Vidal against. Buckley made the point that if it deters even one murder, it's worth it. Of course, that is hard to prove one way on the other.

The same argument can be used for spying on Americans. If you gather lots of illegal data that pries into our personal lives, but then you happen to uncover a plot to blow up a huge bomb in Penn Station which would kill 200 people, then is it worth it?

Even ordinary surveillance footage in stores and malls has made it a lot easier to apprehend killers. So it is a two-edged sword.

Still, I think it is good that Assange exposed it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 19, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
Yeah, what's a few Americans' lives worth when we're talking about protecting yer texts to yer mistress?
Mei

Trad climber
mxi2000.net
May 20, 2017 - 08:22am PT
https://m.soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/72-privacy-and-security

Listen to this short interview of General Michael Hayden by Sam Harris. If 40 minutes is too long, skip 20, where Snowden became the subject of discussion.

Edit: oops, should have read up thread first.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 9, 2017 - 09:05am PT
Be careful about risking one's life by leaking to The Intercept:

https://www.mintpressnews.com/intercepts-source-burning-problem/228652/
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 25, 2017 - 12:19am PT
clifff

Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
Oct 6, 2017 - 10:40am PT
Noam Chomsky on Edward Snowden - 5 minutes

[Click to View YouTube Video]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 16, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
Very interesting two part documentary by Cyril Tuschi, worth watching:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/specialseries/2016/03/digital-dissidents-160323141254755.html

"Whistleblowers such as Daniel Ellsberg, Thomas Drake, William Binney, and Edward Snowden; and hackers and activists such as the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and the former British secret service agent Annie Machon, warn us about the complete surveillance of our society. "
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Nov 17, 2017 - 09:17am PT
While the surveillance per se is an invasive thing, the really insidious part is the selective enforcement of what they find. If we all are guilty of violating some law or other, then we all live in fear of being prosecuted when it strikes the fancy of those in power. It enables powerful people to have a legal shield and arms-length deniability for engaging in personal vendettas or underhanded means of preserving and consolidating their power. It’s a way of silencing adversaries and preventing the carriage of justice on larger issues, which erodes the quality of our democracy and society.

We see evidence of it now even in the private sector, where filthy rich men pay former Mossad agents to dig up dirt on their victims to keep them quiet.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 17, 2017 - 09:28am PT
So you would rather see airliners blown out of the sky rather than compromise your privacy fantasies?
You have no idea how many plots have been thwarted by our security people. I feel safer for it,
but I don't feel less private, especially as I am not plotting to do anything nefarious. I also have
a higher regard for the people doing this than you apparently.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 17, 2017 - 10:36am PT
Reilly:
So you would rather see airliners blown out of the sky rather than compromise your privacy fantasies?
You have no idea how many plots have been thwarted by our security people.
Reilly, could you please provide a list of such plots?
I suspect that secret services are so shy with such disclosure because this list is really short.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 17, 2017 - 10:40am PT
Юроч, having enjoyed a moderate level security clearance at one time I’m here to tell you there is a phrase that explains why you ‘think’ the list is short:

‘It’s on a need to know basis.’

And, FYI, you ain’t on that list.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 5, 2017 - 07:30am PT
https://cryptome.org/A-Discussion-With-Cryptome.pdf
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 5, 2017 - 11:40am PT
On this, I agree with Reilly.

Why should the plots not be disclosed?

Because then still-unknown-plotters will know what things have been tried, and failed, and be searched for. We haven't had anyone try to smuggle explosives in their shoes after the fires, have we?

There is a tendency for relatively simple plotters to try the same things, thinking that they are being very original. They are not. Once those things are identified, they are generally easy to spot.

Relatively brilliant plotters are another matter, although they can fall into the same trap.

It is better that what is foiled is not disclosed.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Dec 5, 2017 - 12:26pm PT
The problem with "security through obscurity" is that you assume the folks you are trying to hide it from don't have access to the info. Like, oh say, the vulnerabilities that NSA teams were working on for hacking its targets.

Information is power, but it is too difficult to control the flow of it when humans are involved.

So, it is a very brittle model. Inexperienced software developers often try to develop proprietary security mechanisms that they think are brilliant... and the typical failure mode is that it gets little review from smarter and more experienced people, and as such there are grievous errors embedded in the solution that smarter people exploit. Far better to have more eyeballs involved, and rely on the motivation of personal desire for fame/recognition/career-promotion that causes white-hat security people to call out the errors.

Either make it secure for real by the standards of a big collection of smart experienced people, and out in the open for all to vet, or just bury an abscess that the truly bad guys know how to find and exploit. It is hubris to assume that the folks on your side are smarter than the folks on the other side.

If you just want to go for an 80/20 approach to solving the problem (i.e. make 20% effort to get 80% of the security coverage), then sure use obscurity and block the idiot criminals, but don't expect to stop the good ones too.
Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 11, 2018 - 11:24am PT
Second developer of WikiLeaks inspired submission system "SecureDrop", security expert James Dolan, aged 36, has tragically died. He is said to have committed suicide. The first, Aaron Swartz, is said to have taken his own life at age 26, after being persecuted by US prosecutors.
https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/950866357347905537
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 8, 2018 - 11:28pm PT
Donald Trump’s Surveillance of New York Times Reporter is a True Declaration of War Against The Press

https://theintercept.com/2018/06/08/donald-trump-new-york-times-reporter-leak-investigation/
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