risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 9, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
edward snowden just gave up a $100k+ job, his family, a girlfriend, a house in hawaii and most importantly physical security to inform the american [and global] public of what he has seen the NSA already implement and continue to expand. [edited pay down as initial reports of $200k/yr are likely exaggerated]

he appears to have risked all of this and followed his conscience as a public service. if you haven't seen this already, i hope you'll take twelve and a half minutes of your relatively comfortable life to listen to what he is saying: Edward Snowden: the whistle blower behind the NSA surveillance revelations

this is a leak that, if true, makes watergate look like a childhood prank. rather than being about some stupid political dirty trick, this is about the fundamental structure underlying almost the entirety of our contemporary and still emerging networked globe.

this is about confirming that the NSA is already very far along in implementing a previously secret, informational dragnet. a dragnet which, if one believes what snowden is telling us, harnesses archival capabilities that are mind-boggling in scope and breadth. using snowden's words, regardless of current intention, this informational construct has the potential to quickly be converted into an "architecture of oppression" and a "turnkey tyranny."

while it's easy to stick our heads under rocks and tell ourselves "why should i care, i have nothing to hide?" or to paraphrase obama "i'm not worried because i know the people behind the scenes and we can trust them" history has repeatedly shown that to take on this attitude is to be dangerously and self-destructively naive.

"may you live in interesting times", indeed...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 9, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
this is a leak, that if true, makes watergate look like a childhood prank.


The government has already admitted that it is true, and has been going on for years. It started under Bush and Obama kept and expanded it.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:50am PT
TFPU
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:41am PT
While you may be angry and not like what the government is doing, the initial post here misses the point and creates a fallacy. Let's start with the following which is not legally in dispute:

(1) The program, whether you like it or not, was based upon a law passed by Congress, executed by the Executive and approved by a Federal Court. Congress admits that it had oversight as required by law (even if some in Congress did not like the program).

(2) Based upon the foregoing, the program was, by definition, legal. Watergate was not legal. It was a crime. There is no comparison here. The only crime here was by the guy who leaked the information. He admits he did so to start public debate on what was previously a private debate (i.e., within the confines of confidential Congressional hearings, etc.).

(3) The NSA has a Whistleblower program and set of procedures. This leaker chose to not even attempt to follow those procedures. While it is possible the procedures would not have resulted in anything - indeed, it is likely nothing would have happened since the NSA program complied with the law - it is the obligation of the leaker to at least follow the very procedures that he lawfully and legally agreed to follow.

(4) If people do not like this program, the solution lies in a new law to be passed by Congress since they passed the applicable laws in the first place - creating the FISA court and passing the Patriot Act (doing so again in December 2012). This is why we have elected officials. Now to be clear, I think Congress as a whole is horrible, but the solution is to elect new officials, not violate the law. Alternatively, you should work to convince your Congressperson/people that the law needs to change.

(5) What this leaker did was an extreme act of civil disobedience, NOT whistleblowing (look up the definition - the government was not breaking the law, they were following a law that some people now do not like). Sometimes civil disobedience works out great (think the origin of the Civil Rights Act). Sometimes, it is merely criminal activity. While I am a strong privacy advocate, I believe this case appears to be one of criminal activity.

(6) Bin Laden used to communicate via cell phone. He then learned that we could and were tracking all of his calls. He then switched to couriers and other methods, thus making it more difficult to track him. Every time there is a leak of our intelligence methods, it makes it easier for the bad guys to do what they do. I wonder if people who claim to be against this program would continue to be against it if the program was cancelled, and as a result, we failed to stop a terrorist attack like 9/11.

(7) People need to understand what the government was gaining access to (metadata from phone records, etc.) and what they were not (individual names, addresses, etc.). The idea is that if the government already had information on an individual, they were permitted (and indeed required by law) to go back and get a specific warrant to then get that individual's information - which pursuant to the program, was already being stored.

Again, it is critical that people realize that there does not appear to be any law broken by our government. They were following the law. The problem, if any, is in the law itself.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:03am PT
Kind of a fishy story.
According to Slate, this guy's attempt to take refuge in Hong Kong is a terrible plan. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_leak_investigation_justice_department_announces_probe_of.html
That may seem like a detail, but it strongly suggests to me that he isn't a careful or competent guy, and I'm suspicious of his motivations and candor.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:53am PT
He's one of many, who will continue to expose, and eventually destroy, this threat to privacy and freedom.

a couple of slides he released on the PRISM data collection program:
from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/

Credit: washingtonpost.com

Credit: washingtonpost.com

see http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:05am PT
(4) If people do not like this program, the solution lies in a new law to be passed by Congress since they passed the applicable laws in the first place - creating the FISA court and passing the Patriot Act (doing so again in December 2012). This is why we have elected officials. Now to be clear, I think Congress as a whole is horrible, but the solution is to elect new officials, not violate the law. Alternatively, you should work to convince your Congressperson/people that the law needs to change.

Congress passes a law, when everyone is scared and ready to give up their rights, and then the law is abused to collect information on everyone, not just foreigners, and the people don't even really know what the government is collecting on them.

If they did, this guy wouldn't be divulging any secrets rights?

So kudos to him and FU to the government who collects everything on everyone under the pretense of preventing a few bad guys from doing a few bad things.

Franklin said those who give up their freedom for security deserve neither. We are too far down the slippery slope already

Peace

Karl
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:05am PT
^^^^ I don't cheat on my wife or do anything too illegal so I don't feel
any less private or free. We have no idea of how many threats or terrorist
attacks have been thwarted by this legal operation. I'm happy they're doing it.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:17am PT
The Electronic Frontier Foundation, an Internet rights group, calls for a "new Church committee" to investigate potential government infringements on privacy and to write new rules protecting the public.

In the mid-70s a Senate investigation led by Idaho Senator Frank Church uncovered decades of serious, systemic abuse by the US government of its eavesdropping powers, an episode Glenn Greenwald has written frequently about. The Church Committee report led to the passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and set up the Fisa courts that today secretly approve surveillance requests.

A statement from EFF reads in part:

Congress now has a responsibility to the American people to conduct a full, public investigation into the domestic surveillance of Americans by the intelligence communities, whether done directly or in concert with the FBI. And it then has a duty to make changes in the law to stop the spying and ensure that it does not happen again.

In short, we need a new Church Committee.

Read the full statement here. There's support for such a new push inside Congress, too. On Sunday Senator Rand Paul said he would try to challenge the NSA surveillance programs in court, and Senator Mark Udall said he wanted to "reopen" the Patriot Act, to clarify limits on what it allows. Republican Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner recently wrote an editorial for the Guardian saying "I authored the Patriot Act, and this is an abuse of that law."

from
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-revealed-as-nsa-whistleblower-reaction-live
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:18am PT
I am shocked and saddened by the responses here.

For those that say that we shouldn't be worried if we do not have anything to hide, at what point does price for "security" become too high? What other civil liberties are you willing to sacrifice at the alter of "safety?" How many more wars, civilian casualties in drone strikes, torture sessions and executions are you willing to endure? Do you REALLY think that we are winning the war on terror when the biggest casualties are the freedoms we give away?

I do not expect to change anyones mind with my post. America is in its final death throes, and I see a dark road ahead for Imperial Amerika Inc.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:19am PT
How did he "risk his life" again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:21am PT
(1) The program, whether you like it or not, was based upon a law passed by Congress, executed by the Executive and approved by a Federal Court.


My emphasis.


Perhaps the program was based on law. However, the program went way beyond the law that was passed (the Patriot Act). Don't try to whitewash this, what the NSA is doing is ILLEGAL, pure and simple.

Whistleblower procedure my butt. You know as well as I do how far a complaint through the NSA protocols would go. Nowhere, and at light speed.


Congress admits that it had oversight as required by law (even if some in Congress did not like the program).


Tell me, how do you provide oversight if those providing details of their actions tell bald-faced lies about their programs?

Pathetic that you are trying to defend the NSA's actions here.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:22am PT
Credit: off of Facebook
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:29am PT
This man is going to rot in a box like Madden, and for nothing. Nothing will be done, the machine's wheels have been turning long before and will long after.

michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:01am PT
I find it interesting that I agree with many comments on both sides of this argument. However, for those who claim the program is "illegal" - that is currently an impossibility. The program was approved by a Federal Court. Therefore, by definition, it is legal. The Court's determine what is and is not legal. While an individual can certainly believe the Court got it wrong (being a lawyer, I often believe that to be the case), when the Court approves an action, that action by definition is legal. On the other hand, there is a clear argument that the law is being interpreted more broadly than initially intended - as often happens. As is always the case in such a scenario, the solution is within the legislature to pass a new law, particularly where the average citizen lacks standing to challenge the law. As for the Franklin quote, that is ALWAYS a battle that is going on with our lives on a daily basis. We allow all kinds of laws that impact our liberty in the name of safety. It's a slippery slope. We have speed limits, limits on weapons, license requirements for all types of behaviors and professions, seatbelt laws, security at airports, etc. The real question is where do we, as a society, draw the line? It's simply a cost-benefit analysis where there is no clear correct answer. However, I believe the correct answer requires that we follow the correct procedure. If one person dies as a result of this act of civil disobedience, there should be a murder charge against the leaker. That was the risk he took in making this unilateral decision. In the long run, perhaps he will turn out to have made the right decision, but it is a decision with real consequences that he has to accept.

With a warrant, the executive branch (cops, FBI, DEA, etc.) could ALWAYS search anything they wanted. The key was getting judicial approval. This current program obtained judicial approval. It is no different procedurally than any other warrant situation. If anything, this is less harmful since this information is not being used for criminal prosecution so as to invoke the protections of the 4th Amendment.

Again, the key here is do we want one individual to have the ability to override a decision made together by our 3 branches of government? If you are an anarchist, the answer is yes. If not, the answer should be no.

All of this being said, the cat is clearly out of the bag. Thus, people - namely, our government - now have to decide what liberty they are willing to give up for safety. Are you willing to have a computer view your Google searches if it saves one life? What is that life is someone you know? Perhaps, on the other hand, society is better off as a whole with more liberty and less safety - after all, we, as climbers, are generally willing to take personal risks to have a more thorough enjoyment of life when we go climbing. Maybe the balance between liberty and safety should be viewed the same way.
The Wedge

Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:02am PT
I believe the high school drop-out, over some congressmen.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:36am PT
The ONLY solution I can see if to reduce funding to the government. As this kind of empire building and expansion is routine for even benign programs, we need to reduce all funding to all programs.

In case anyone cares, when you look at your paycheck and see how much they are pulling out for federal taxes, realize that your employer also pays a shitload, and that between the amount that they get from both of you: THEY ARE BORROWING 40% MORE AS THEY CANNOT BALANCE THE CHECKBOOK. You gonna let your children be on the hook for this?

Current debt per taxpayer is $148,212 (ie, YOU) - and that number is increasing daily.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:38am PT
I don't cheat on my wife

I wonder if they would rat u out if you were?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:44am PT
The prism program was not "approved by a federal court." Someone did try to make a constitutional challenge to one of the NSAs programs about a year ago, but was thrown out for reasons of standing. You can't file a lawsuit without evidence under Rule 11. So if you can't prove you were spied on, you can't challenge the spying program.

I think if a case were properly presented to a court, this kind of spying would be unconstitutional. Their idea is that they can build a database of every communication of every US citizen, and have a detailed dossier ready to go if they need it. It's not a search until they use it. It doesnt target Americans because it doens't target anyone, at least the collection side. It's like the Bush-era arguments about torture. Absolutely nonsensical.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:53am PT
I'm ignorant of most of the policies that this event exposes. In that respect, what Snowden did is constructive as now the dialogue will hopefully be made in the public so it can be understood by the citizenry.

Precisely what, where, and when was the law passed that permitted the USA government to collect, search (i.e. scanning for words, phrases, ideas, people, thoughts, opinions, beliefs, etc) and store (indefinitely), every private electronic communication of every USA citizen to the degree that it is now being practiced by the NSA?

Precisely what, where, and when was the public notified in no uncertain terms that this spying (invasion and violation of individual rights, surveillance, intelligence gathering .... however you wish to phrase it [and the way that you phrase it is itself up for debate as it defines the nature of the activity]) was being conducted on this scale and scope?

A vital conversation to have for the country.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:55am PT
If you see something suspicious taking place
then report that behavior.

http://www.dhs.gov/if-you-see-something-say-something-campaign

its our duty as citizens.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:58am PT
Not a big fan of Prism, or other secret spying programs. And I do think this guy did do a favor to us.

However, it seems like he's having a little too much fun playing James Bond. Describing himself as a spy, when he was in reality a security guard and then an IT administrator. Saying his life was in danger, as well as the life of the reporters he talked to.

And was just listening to an interview the Guardian did with him. He was talking about how, since he was a sys admin, he saw lots more sensitive docs than the average CIA or NSA person did. While that's technically true, that's exactly the opposite of what you should be doing as an SA. You're not supposed to be poking through all those docs that you have access to because of your admin status.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
"How did he "risk his life" again? "

he actually forfiet his life... that is if by "life" we are using the same definition that we use when we say an american citizen is being threatened by terrorism.

his security clearance is gone
he will never find employment in the field hes trained for again

all the reasonable mature and responsible contracts and arrangements he had previously made in life assume employment in his field are now weights around his neck

he might as well have been at the finish life of that marathon...



Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Again, the key here is do we want one individual to have the ability to override a decision made together by our 3 branches of government?

I can think of at least one unjust decision in our history that was made together by our three branches of government.

It's quite a doozy, actually.

I'm sure they are capable of doing it again.

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
A thought experiment:

Considering the theory of 6 Degrees of Separation, every USA citizen is linked to every terrorist and terrorist suspect. This places every USA citizen in the position of being potentially connected to every suspect of every national security investigation. This translates into a justification for examining every electronic communication or document of every USA citizen. After all, there may be info that pertains to the investigation.

In the end, this is all done for your own safety and welfare.

BIG BROTHER LOVES YOU.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:12pm PT

Congress passes a law, when everyone is scared and ready to give up their rights

If American voters would stop voting YELLOW we would have far fewer wars and far fewer government incursions into our lives.

Wanna fight a war? Go fight it - personally.

Wanna surrender your rights to the government in trade for security? Are you SURE????

:-)

I have been seeing a need for a digital information age amendment to the Constitution - guaranteeing that we the people OWN OUR OWN PERSONAL DATA.

It needs special protection. Between google and the nsa and the cellular companies? Turn you inside out... presto quicko, and expose your ass to the world. Yes, you.

DMT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
• Raised in Elizabeth City, North Carolina and later moved to Maryland.

• Attended a community college, but never completed his coursework and never graduated from high school.

• 2003-2004: U.S. Army, discharged after training accident

• 2005: NSA, Security Guard, University of Maryland.

• 2006: CIA, IT security.

• 2007-2009: CIA, diplomatic cover, Switzerland.

• 2009-2013: NSA Contractor, Dell and later Booz Allen Hamilton.

This is Bradley Manning all over again. How did this guy get a 200k a year job and access to everything?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Someone did try to make a constitutional challenge to one of the NSAs programs about a year ago, but was thrown out for reasons of standing. You can't file a lawsuit without evidence under Rule 11. So if you can't prove you were spied on, you can't challenge the spying program.

Maybe he did this so it could be challenged?

That Franklin quote is funny. At first it got me all fired up, but then I started wondering if it was just more political rhetoric.

These guys have been in bed with the bankers since the foundation of America, but when the declaration of independence was written, the big challenge was to get people to go to work and not have them feel taken advantage of, leading to protest. The politicians of the day, had to work a lot harder to convince people that the were in fact "free".

Now we just take it for granted....

Edit
It needs special protection. Between google and the nsa and the cellular companies? Turn you inside out... presto quicko, and expose your ass to the world. Yes, you.

You got that right. I just assume that any electronic communication is basically public knowledge.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
I think it's important to understand that you can't have 100% security and then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience...

That is such a bs statement. Does he really think the people are that stupid? Three completely, 100% unachievable goals. He throws up a straw man to defend his administrations' 100% unconstitutional actions.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Time for some heads to roll over this.

In March 2012, Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GA) asked Gen. Alexander, who was under
oath, “What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept
communications and information involving American citizens?

answer: We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.


Top admin lied under oath saying it was not happening when he knew the nsa has been collecting everything and keeps adding capability to spy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:29pm PT

We have far too much of this attitude in Washington - that the Constitution is an impediment that must be defeated. From health insurance mandates, to national security programs, the Constitutional test isn't whether it adheres to the letter and spirit of our founding document, but whether there is a believable work around that the Supreme Court will accept.

In that process, the Constitution becomes little more than a speed bump on the road to tyranny.


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/06/nsa_in_2000_hey_lets_rethink_the_fourth_amendment.html


If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.

Madison
Federalist 51


http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm


If PRISM were only used to pursue terrorists that's one thing, but this administration, (as well as past ones) has shown itself quite happy to use the administrative state to harass its political opponents.

Doesn't mean they are doing it now like they are using the IRS, but they could.

Be assured a future administration will.

Might not be your guy next time.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
Well said TGT.


BTW Obama lovers. I told ya so. How was I sure this was happenning before it was reported? Because FISA and the Patriot act made it legal..Tech makes it doable. Therefore it would almost certainly exist. Funny how many folks yelled at me for not having specific evidence. Some things are so obvious it simply blows me away when folks are surprised to find out it's happenning.

Generally when it comes to defense stuff if you can imagine it and it seems likely then it's already being done.


Another side to this argument I haven't heard. It seems to me like outlawing the nuclear weapon. The cats out of the bag.. the capability exists and any government now or in the future that wishes to use this type of thing AGAINST it's people will do so. No matter what happens to the current PRISM.

It is technology and the people need to use the same thing on politicians. 24-7 public surveillance should be the price of power. Well perhaps that is a bit extreme and unworkable. But I do think turnabout could be fair-play and have some positive results.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
It's simply a cost-benefit analysis where there is no clear correct answer. However, I believe the correct answer requires that we follow the correct procedure.

There is nothing that's simple about an analysis that measures social benefits. I've been a part of some of those. What is the value of human life? What is the value of well-being? What is the value of silence or of clean air? Although insurance companies can calculate expected life earnings, what people will pay for more silence, etc., those are economic calculations that have inherent and incommensurable equalities. Avoiding fixing automobile gas tanks versus paying out a few lawsuits after intense legal blocking for design negligence are also cost-benefit analyses. Simple? How about "questionable?"

You would made H.L.A. Hart proud, Mr. Feldman.

Legal positivism has its problems, but not according to Mr. Feldman here. "What is the law is the law." Gee, thanks. Thinking and reflection are hardly needed in your world. Indeed, this makes the law and lawyers technocrats.

Ronald Dworkin had other ideas: laws need be meritorious; the coercive force that governments can use should be regulated according to conditions; laws are to be interpreted; the law (laws with other laws) must exhibit integrity to make sense; law is integrated with morality (that there is no separation between the two); how we come to know the law is more important than knowing what the law is; and the law (laws) should provide a seamless web.

Clearly not all the facts are in, but Mr. Feldman (an attorney, apparently) has already convicted the accused.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
conservatives are really stupid f*#ks about this...
they absolutely LOVED these programs when a drunk who bought a ranch just to have an excuse to use a chainsaw was running them

then a half breed wins an elections and SUDDENLY they care?!?!?

ya... like you care about the deficet and unemployment before the sellout



bonus!

you find a few who pretend NOT to care, knowing the above and their history... they will say its ok since they have nothing to hide. quickly respond "well if you have nothing to hide, why do you give a f*#k if the irs asking you to answer a few extra questions?!?!?!?!?!"

be sure their nitro pill are nearby and you know how to take the cap off

gonna need em
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
You don't "rethink" the Constitution.
You don't design surveillance programs to get around it.
And you don't twist the law into a pretzel in order to make the illegal,
legal.
Credit: abrams
jdal

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
Before you all get your knickers in a twist it's worth noting that the article quoted in the OP was from a UK newspaper. The concern it expresses is that only US citizens are protected by US law, UK citizens have no privacy protection in the US over use of this data and there is the potential for UK surveilance authorities to dodge UK privacy law in some way by accessing Prism data. We are assured by the UK government that this isn't happening. Ho ho.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
and thats the detail which allowed the echelon system to do this for decades before this recently revealed program

the collection of white settler kill the indian nations all agreed that they would wiretap everything one of the other countries citizens produced, when they wernt prevent from law from doing.

then

since the law only said they couldnt do it... they were allowed to accept the data from the country which was allowed to do it. they could share and get what the law prevented them from doing "first person" so to speak

nothing changed

we just snunk the hat on "in house" so to speak


we and everyone still uses private contractors to do all this,
firms and individuals who dont have ANY of the bare scruples democracies still have to respect



michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:43pm PT
Mike, I do not convict anyone. Rather, I see an individual who signed a contract swearing secrecy, and then intentionally taking documents to which he was not entitled to take, and disclosing those documents in violation of not only his contract (with its confidentiality provisions), but also in violation of Federal law which makes the disclosure illegal. I leave it to a Court to convict if charged. Do not, however, confuse liability for breaking the law and doing the right thing. They are often different. Surely we would all break the law to save someone's life we care about. We would then have to face the consequences for doing so, and hope the Court's would have mercy on us. The most simple situation is speeding to the hospital to bring someone dying. We would all do it without regard to running read lights or exceeding the speed limit. It would still be illegal. We would just hope/assume that nobody would try to punish us. That is what the leaker did here.

As for the Court which approved it, it was the FISA Court. The Judges on the FISA Court are the same Federal judges that serve on the rest of our Federal Courts - appointed by the President with approval from the Senate. They are assigned to the FISA Court by the US Supreme Court on a rotating basis. Like all Federal judges, they have lifetime tenure, and thus, are technically immune from political hacks. The programs were approved by the FISA Court from what I have read.

I am all for privacy rights. I do not yet have a full understanding of how this information was used. None of us do. Thus, I have no idea (and neither do any of you) of whether the programs overreached. I am just trying to deal with the facts as we know them. Those facts are pretty clear (albeit quite limited). I do not trust the government as a whole. I do not trust Congress to do their job as they are too strongly influenced by lobbyists and money. I work in the Judicial system, and while there are plenty of horrible judges, I trust them to not be corrupt. If we want more privacy and more liberty, we need to push for same with our legislatures. We need to push the issue, and present informed arguments as to why giving up some security is worth it for the sake of liberty. This IS a slippery slope in either direction. If our spy programs are all public, they are not spy programs. If we give up all liberty, then what are we fighting to protect anyway? I am also interested to know if ANYWAY has been harmed by this program. In theory, we should be considering who was harmed, the cost of the program and what benefits the program has produced. Of course, this should have all been done by those in Congress who are required, and lawfully authorized, to oversee the program. This is NOT something that the public should reviewing (as opposed to debating the overall issue which has been in the public eye since 9/11) anymore than we should be reviewing battle plans, or criminal investigations in general.

For all those who are now complaining about the program, I am curious whether you were raising outrage and trying to do something about it after 9/11 when the Patriot Act was passed, or when it was renewed this past December. Hell, I wonder if people will make this an issue now. Many elections are coming up. We, as citizens in the US who are able to vote, have a duty to stand up, be heard and vote at election time. If we fail to do so, we cannot then be heard to complain about the actions of our legislators. Maybe this will be a lesson for the 45% (approx) of our population who fails to even vote in a Presidential election.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
Been against it since the patriot(TREASON) act was proposed. Wasn't hard to figure out where it was all going. never understood how the death of 3000 people warranted spitting on the sacrifice of about 1 million American soldiers who so many like to say "died for our freedom"

As Franklins basically said. Those who sacrifice freedom for liberty will lose both.

Another guy who i think might have been an alpinist and made pretty good beer stated. "give me liberty or give me death"

Lately I find myself gagging when the National anthem is sung and the words "home of the brave" come along.

Was terribly crushed when candidate then SENATOR Obama voted for telecom immunity. I was actually begginning to believe in him until then... thats when I realized democracy in the USA was dead.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Ok, Michael. I appreciate a fuller explanation of your views. Thanks.

Still messy and ambiguous to me, but as you say, I don't know all about the specific laws in question, execution, oversight, and the facts. I wrote about some jurisprudence issues that stood out to me, which probably will never see the light of dialogue here.

(I'm not exactly for positivism in almost any form, as you might tell.)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
How did this guy get a 200k a year job and access to everything?

Welcome to the "intelligence community."

The patriots that are defending our freedom have to bear the burden of being incredibly well paid.

I worked in that business for a while, a few years back. One year our company had our annual meeting in the Cayman Islands. The whole company (plus guest, of course) at a nice resort on the beach.

9-11 made a lot of people wealthy. Many of them, very wealthy.

pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Credit: pud
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
"It's legal" is not a good argument on the side of the government. Let's say that it is legal for the cops to ask for a warrant to search your house and it is legal for a judge to evaluate their request and issue that warrant. No where in the law is there a clear and definitive line drawn as to what constitutes probable cause and illegal search and seizure; it is all a matter of court opinion. The only recourse if a judge gets a little too generous with search warrants is to point it out, have lawsuits in federal courts, etc. There is no law that can be changed to make a judge act within the constitution.

So although the FISA court allowed this, that does not mean that the actions of that court are constitutional. There is certainly no law that limits what they FISA court can and cannot approve. What they decide is just a matter of their anonymous opinion.

Since we have no way to see any of this happening, there is no way for the public to act as a deterrent to an over-zealous or even tyrannical court.

So maybe it's not legal. Maybe peoples civil rights have been trampled on and everyone who knows about it is just fine letting it happen because they are the ones interpreting the law.

Dave
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
How did this guy get a 200k a year job and access to everything?

Welcome to the "intelligence community."




entirely untrue!
that is IF you concerned about why

the inteligence community formerly was a government enterprise. the as#@&%es bush and his faith based christian hordes dragged in insisted we worship the market with our ever stapler so the whole system was outsources

thus we witnessed the exedus of 80% of the "traditional" inteligence community, instant replaced by bible beating wall street whoring idiots willing to hate their fellow and sell out for a poptart

thus we get highly compromiseable systems run by highly compromised jesustard who are mostly ready and willing to pocket a quarter million dollars of salary a year while shopping throught the new private sector rolodex as to where to sell the secret they have access to

just cuz they fell poor and oppressed and all the more willing to hate goverment and punish the public because they got the job

as#@&%es

our leaker here was just one of them who wouldnt agree to preform the felonies he was told post hiring that he had signed up for, now that tought on crime administration ruled the roost
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:11pm PT
I see an individual who signed a contract swearing secrecy, and then intentionally taking documents to which he was not entitled to take, and disclosing those documents in violation of not only his contract (with its confidentiality provisions), but also in violation of Federal law which makes the disclosure illegal.

And I see a Gov't that does not abide by the laws its Congress creates. And then, when an individual exposes the breach of laws by those at the top levels of the Gov't, they imprison the ones who expose them.


They are called "whistle blowers" for a reason.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
I can't believe there are actually people who are okay with their own government spying on them.


Who feels safe?


"Oh yay, the government is tracking my every move in person, and on the internet, I FEEL SO SAFE" said no one ever.


Edward Snowden is a good person.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
I'm sure there's more than a bit of CYA going on here, but even the guy who wrote the "Patriot Act" says that what's going on now is, and always was, clearly illegal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/09/abuse-patriot-act-must-end
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
ie...

"sure we said it was ok to rape the bitches! but grabbing a tittie while your at it is CLEARLY outside of the acceptance of felony assaults we envisioned with our codifying of sexual assault... we only authorized their tying down and vaginal penetration with foreign object! not boobie squeezing"
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
Go away Crawlly
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
This can stand up to a repeat (michael f., the bold is for you):

Time for some heads to roll over this.

In March 2012, Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GA) asked Gen. Alexander, who was under
oath, “What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept
communications and information involving American citizens?

answer: We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.


Top admin lied under oath saying it was not happening when he knew the nsa has been collecting everything and keeps adding capability to spy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
And on the Manning trial:

The military trial of Bradley Manning is a judicial lynching. The government has effectively muzzled the defense team. The Army private first class is not permitted to argue that he had a moral and legal obligation under international law to make public the war crimes he uncovered. The documents that detail the crimes, torture and killing Manning revealed, because they are classified, have been barred from discussion in court, effectively removing the fundamental issue of war crimes from the trial. Manning is forbidden by the court to challenge the government’s unverified assertion that he harmed national security. Lead defense attorney David E. Coombs said during pretrial proceedings that the judge’s refusal to permit information on the lack of actual damage from the leaks would “eliminate a viable defense, and cut defense off at the knees.”
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
I hope he keeps his soap on a rope.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
Finally, an issue that Dems and the GOP can agree on.

I'm a Democrat, and this sort of nonsense is obviously wrong.

I'm glad that we all can have a kumbaya moment here.

Now, back to partisanship!!!!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
Yer Gunna Die!

Do you understand that down to your core?

If you are young and happen to live 80+ years as you have a fair chance to.. YER STILL GUNNA DIE!

And if you do live that long you will live through the death of around 8 to 10 BILLION people.

Now as climbers we tend to SAY we embrace the idea that quality is worth the risk of quantity when it comes to life. Some of us DIE based on that choice.

The leaker is my hero. Even though he is probably a bit odd and unstable. He probably spoke up in vain. America will continue to give up freedom for the security to live crappy lives full of fear and and weekends away from jobs they hate and can barely eek out a living with. Scrapping and squabbling in crappy little concrete jungles.

Another hero once said. "Give me Liberty or Give me Death"
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
Spies!

Spies Everywhere!

IRS Buying Spying Equipment: Covert Cameras in Coffee Trays, Plants

Only accepting bids for 19hours until purchase is made.

Hurry! They need the bugs right now! Tues June 11 2013.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/irs-buying-spying-equipment-covert-cameras-coffee-trays-plants


Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Did you all forget that this was exposed in 2007. It started soon after we signed our rights over to Big Brother under the [un]Patriot Act.
At times they (NSA, FBI, DHS et al) have changed the name of it so they could claim that they stopped a particular program. But or course the general practice never stopped expanding and now it's expanded 100-fold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/11/ex-att-employee-nsa-snooping-internet-traffic-too/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html

No case yet has stopped them.
https://www.eff.org/cases/jewel
https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/att/Shubert%20opening%20brief%209th%20Circuit.pdf
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/amnesty-et-al-v-clapper
https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/


Don't even dream that they are only looking at comms of foreigners. In order to do that, first they have to screen everything. And if you have ever made a foreign call or email, or looked at a foreign website, you are now a suspect.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
The NSA surveillance has been known to the public for years.

The main stream media (MSM) has reported almost nothing about it for years.

The stupid Americans only follow MSM.

MSM has suddenly reported the NSA surveillance.

Stupid Americans suddenly think it's something new.

Stupid Americans still don't have a clue what's really going on even though it's spelled out in the clear every day.

Only when they "see" something on MSM a dim light bulb goes on in their dim heads.

You've all been owned and pawned to the max.

You should all just STFU and stand in the line to the guillotine you've all made for yourselves all along ......

dirtbag

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
^^^^^Grumpy^^^^^
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
islamicist understudy actually
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
Finally, an issue that Dems and the GOP can agree on.

I'm a Democrat, and this sort of nonsense is obviously wrong.


The GOP is only against it if DEMs are in power. I'm against it no matter what

Peace

Karl
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
Oh so Werner is an Islamist because he speaks the truth about the delusion of the American populace? I don't think so.

Islam is just another religion.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Rsin
islamicist understudy actually

ROFLMAO!

yer stooopid. Not from around these parts methinks..

Even if Werner is just repeating what I've been saying.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:43pm PT
Islam is just another religion.

Nah!

It's just the

"cult of the child molesting warlord"

It's an insult to the rest of the major religions to compare them.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
Why was all this OK 8 years ago?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
it wasn't

It was OK for the last five years until Barry cut his minions loose on the press.

When their own ox was gored they finally started paying attention.

Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Islam is just another religion.


Nah!

It's just the

"cult of the child molesting warlord"
TGT
It was OK for the last five years until Barry cut his minions loose on the press.

wow
what a loon

so it was OK when Bush was doing it without a warrant,
because he lied about it, right?
and we didn't know it was happening.. but Now, it's a really big deal, and for you the outrage is just overwhelming..
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
Democracy Now interviews ex-NSA officials "slippery slope toward totalitarian society"....

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/10/on_a_slippery_slope_to_a
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
1997 I was a Central Office Supervisor overseeing 25 offices for one of America's notable Telcos.

We received internal orders to build unrestricted T1 lines into each offices Administrative and Control Panel which gave direct access to all traffic points that originated and terminated within that particular Central Office.

In simpler terms - these access portals gave the end user unfettered access to every landline call, every data link transfer, every encrypted DSL transmission that occurred in real time.

Curious as to who ordered such unprecedented access, we were only told that concerned government agencies had been granted access and to comply with the build request and consider these connections to be off-limits to all Telco personnel unless directed otherwise by no less than a regional VP.

Being the snoopy people that we were, we backtraced these connections through numerous jump links and eventually tracked them to Virginia - home of many a nefarious federal agency.

Through undetected monitoring, we determined that these unnamed agencies were capturing and in essence, bugging potentially every call process that occurred within our offices.

I was not surprised , but I was disappointed that my own country feared the general citizen to the degree that they would monitor all that we said, heard or sent over the public network.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
OK when Bush was doing it without a warrant,

Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition.

The "well Bush did it " is getting tiring.

Barry IS doing it!

On Mohammedans,

Name another major world religion where respected theologians have scholarly debates on whether their founder really f*#ked a nine year old girl, or waited till she was twelve?

Ever read the Koran?

Hard to find a suria that doesn't have at least one command somewhere to go kill some infidels.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
ever read the Hebrew Bible? Glorification of (God sanctioned) genocide throughout - or so the authors would have us believe. What's new. Where's the hate come from?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are Being Violated


NOVA: The Spy Factory
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/spy-factory.html

The Washington Post: Top Secret America - A hidden world, growing beyond control
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/

NSA Spies on Everyone:
http://youtu.be/TuET0kpHoyM



This has been going on now for a long time. Seems average joe is just waking to this.

It's absolutely wrong no matter how you look at it.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
hes a constitutional lawyer

makes one realize that if our drones were pointed at real threats to our national security

theyd be circle whatever campus that degree came from
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
picture the girlfriend?

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/10/is-this-the-acrobat-girlfriend-nsa-whistleblower-edward-snowden-left-behind/
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jun 10, 2013 - 10:59pm PT
I don't have any problem with any of this ..
There are nut jobs out there .
From right wing fanatic water carriers like THG and Rong to the many Muslim fanatics and other types.

They will get a hold of nukes or dirty bomb one day .....among many other things .

The government can listen to my conversations with Sally concerning her nickers and where I am going to climb next month all they like. I hope it gives them a f*#king hard on!
And if I start talking like a right wing f*#ktard or Muslim fanatic - round me up and throw away the key ....

No problem here boss...

And I didn't have any under bush either .... It's a not brainer and you are all pissing in the wind because it will not stop.
We have plenty if checks and balances for this stuff.
It's one thing the republican and democrat lawmakers agree on..


SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
I have tried to resist posting on this thread...I worked in the business for over 30 years. I signed god knows how many secrecy oaths under Title 18. I still take them seriously, even 10 years later. if you believe the system s being abused, you have a choice: file a complaint within the system, either the Whistleblowers office or the Inspector General, or resign and shut up. You might want to believe that these offices are in charge of whitewashing...except that I know for a fact that they go a bit apeshit over privacy.

As a contractor, I NEVER had the right or authority to violate need to know by divulging classified information, including sources and methods, even if I didn't agree with them. It was a promise that I made to my government and in effect TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. Snowden took those same oaths, and in my book, he's no hero.

Snowden isn't risking his life, he's only risking his freedom, and IMHO, he should lose it. Of one thing I am certain...we cannot allow personnel that have taken secrecy oaths to make up their own rules about what information can or should be divulged. We know what's at stake when we sign them, and no one has ever put a gun to my head in the process of signing.

I know some of you might disagree, but frankly, there are things of which you just have no need to know. You might like to know, or wish you knew, but that's just not the way we work, and for the most part, you've all survived quite well not knowing the details.

I cannot/willNOT speak for Prism or NSA. I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
My guess ..
A disgruntled halfwit with visions and delusions of grander.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/edward-snowden-booz-allen-hamilton-leak-problem-92522.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/can_you_use_the_internet_without_prism_partner/
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:47am PT
Edward Snowden is a "whistleblower' in the same way Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen and John Walker Jr. were all "whistleblowers."

Curt
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:00am PT
Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:11am PT
I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:19am PT
Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.

Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.

Curt
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:37am PT
K-Man, my understanding of the testimony to which you cite is that the "communications" have a specific meaning in the intelligence community - namely, specific verbal or written communications being "intercepted" by a human. The programs at issue do not involve this from what I understand. I also understand that if they (the NSA) wants to have a human review any of the actual communications, they first have to go back and get a specific warrant. So was the testimony theoretically misleading to someone who does not know the proper terminology? Surely. Was it false? Apparently not. That being said, I assume most of the Congressional testimony we hear on all issues is pretty much BS or mere posturing.

In any event, after reviewing most of these postings, it is clear that most people are merely stating their opinion as to whether or not they like the program. If they do, then the leaker is a criminal. If they do not, then the government is breaking the law and the leaker is a hero. Such positions are generally falsely based. As things stand, the Patriot Act is legal. As things stand, a Constitutional Court approved the spy program, and thus, it IS Constitutional. That is the way our system works. This does not mean you need to like the law or the Court's interpretation, but it IS the law and it IS Constitutional. The remedy is to overturn the law or ask the Executive branch to not exercise its rights under the law - both of which are acceptable. People have to stop confusing their dislike of this program, or dislike of the Patriot Act, or dislike of the government, with what the law or the Constitution allows.

In addition to all of this, I find it curious that people are ok with going through X-ray machines, having their bags opened, going through pat-downs, etc. (often just to use public places), but they are outraged by a computer scanning their phone calls or Internet searches - which they claim they did not even know about anyway. I was just on a climbing trip and had every item in my carry-on backpack opened and studied, including each individual food bag, etc. It took a while. It was a pain. Yet, I told the person doing the search that I was glad they were at least being thorough. Did it make me feel that the terrorists got a small victory? Absolutely. I lost some freedom of movement. I have to get to Court earlier so my bag can be searched. This means less time doing other things. It sucks. However, it is not illegal. It is a price we pay to feel safe and be safe.

There can be no dispute that there is a fine line between balancing individual liberty and freedom versus security and safety. In making this analysis - which is quite individual - we need to consider whether we would rather be free, but scared from attacks, or lose some liberty, but feel safe. This answer may vary depending on where you live. I watched the second plane hit the Twin Towers on my way to work on 9-11. Many people in my town died that day. My wife works in NYC. I worry about future terrorist attacks, thus, I am willing to give up a little liberty to feel safe for me and my family (which I do). Someone living in a small mountain town may not have the same personal safety concern because terrorist attacks on their community may seem more remote.

Finally, if we are going to have this debate, we all need to understand that there are clearly valid views and positions on both sides of the argument. There is no clear cut solution to the liberty v. safety argument. Different strokes for different folks.
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:56am PT
Just read this: http://news.yahoo.com/world-getting-warmer-faster-expected-132734289.html;_ylt=AjyFHY5iVqmdlBZ38syB_3W1qHQA;_ylu=X3oDMTVxNXQ4ZnFzBGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDEwMDBwb29sd2lraXVwcmVzdARtaXQDQXJ0aWNsZSBNaXhlZCBMaXN0IE5ld3MgZm9yIFlvdSB3aXRoIE1vcmUgTGluawRwa2cDOTM0YjMyNjAtOTg2My0zMzI1LWE0ZTEtMTExZjUxYTdkNDc5BHBvcwM4BHNlYwNuZXdzX2Zvcl95b3UEdmVyAzllMjE5ZmYyLWQxZDEtMTFlMi1iZjY3LWUyNWFkOGZkZWQ2MA--;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3

When I read that global temps are now predicted to increase 9 degrees F by 2020, I am reminded that there are far larger issues getting ignored, and we should be focusing more on such big picture and survival issues instead of a lawful spy program that has yet to harm anyone (at least, not that I have heard of). So when you decide to vote or call your Congress representative to complain about the spy program and ask for a change in the law, let them know they also have to do something about CO2 emissions and pollution. Far more people will die due to Climate Change than terrorist attacks or spying on terrorists (or potential terrorists).
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:05am PT
Why did he run to China? Why is Russia offering him asylum? Two questions that bring an odd feel to this. If he wanted to be the hero, youd think he would stay to face the accused.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:06am PT
I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.

So was Paul Revere if the Government got him.
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:10am PT
After massive media brainwashing over many years .....

Americans have succumbed to the Machine.

Americans have become the Machine.

Americans are now THE Machine.

The machine is run by the operator.

Americans have become the the dumb Machine under the control of its operators.

Stupid people ......

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:10am PT
Why did he run to China? Why is Russia offering him asylum? Two questions that bring an odd feel to this.

They are just doing what we do all the time to them. Protecting the politically persecuted. America does political imprisonment too. But like the Chinese we like to claim the prisoner broke our law. Whether our law is just or not.

This thread makes me sick. Werner is right.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:14am PT
Havent made an actual "choice" of his right or wrong.. Insufficient data thus far. But I maintain these patriots need to be here and not hiding out in a country that is already aligned against us. China is one of those- as we are in a cyber war with them. So it perhpas was good he divulged improper doings, but to take that to a country such as China doesnt bode well imo.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:15am PT
michael, I appreciate your thoughtful replies.

As far as I know, the NSA stretched the law by collecting communication records on US citizens
without a prior warrant--with our without a machine.

Certainly, highly-paid layers will finagle down to a micro-letter that the law does not specifically
state that the NSA stretched beyond the law, but I do believe we all know the intent of the law.

Bats squeeze through 1/4" openings, and that's akin to what layers do with the law, they find ways to
squeeze through the smallest of openings to deem something legal or illegal, the letter of the
law opposed to the spirit of the law.


Why am I so concerned about the NSA leak? I don't need to worry if I don't do anything "wrong," right?

"Wrong" as in attend a peaceful protest against a war, or any other Gov't activity I may want to
stand against. Perhaps I want to show appreciation for the cause behind the Occupy movement.
And when I do, I will be labeled a terrorist and have my electronic communication combed like
Lady Gaga's hair.


"Every single time any major media outlet reports on something that the government is hiding,
that political officials don't want people to know, such as the fact that they are collecting
the phone records of all Americans, regardless of any suspicion of wrongdoing, the
people in power do exactly the same thing," Greenwald said. "They attack the media as the
messenger and they are trying to discredit the story."


And, I fully agree on your concern about climate change--it's rediculous that we have to
fight the establishment that brings us our AWG deniers. (BTW, check out http://www.tinyurl.com,
like this: http://tinyurl.com/krhsez4 ;-)
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:18am PT
cyber war is lately being used as a goofy name for the ancient art of spying. Something all nations do to one another. It isn't war until it is used to do direct damage. I havn't heard that China is accused of anything more than data collection. Could be wrong.

Funny how the laws of nations allow spying via diplomatic cover but the laws for their people do not.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:20am PT
China was just accused of stealing military secrets.
I suppose that is "data collection."

How about the cyber war against the nuclear research in Iran?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:20am PT
heh edited at same time to include Iran

Yep just good ole spying same as we do. Cept we actually have used hacking to do damage to other nations.

America has done cyber war. Iran
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:26am PT
We invented cyberwar.

DMT
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:27am PT
Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.

Curt

Depends what side you were on. But clearly the states were the Rebels.

There are higher laws than the written ones. as our founders clearly pointed out.
When the written law requires you to do what is wrong.
What does a good man follow?
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:13am PT
A quick calculation of the phone "metadata":
300 million people making 10 calls a day. We harvest source phone, destination phone, time and length. Each can be stored as a 32 bit integer, 16 bytes per call. I get 48 Gb per day; would fill my hard drive in 4 days. Have no idea how accurate 10 calls per day is.

A totalitarian government occupies every aspect of your life. We are getting there.

Snowden is a hero.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:13am PT
Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:

http://www.everyjoe.com/2013/06/11/girls/lindsay-mills-photos-edward-snowden-girlfriend-ballerina/?pid=4015
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:16am PT
Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:

had. Now he's fleed the country and likely going to rot in a cell for the rest of his life. Meanwhile she has to deal with her private photos being shared online by pervs. Fun stuff.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:20am PT
Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:27am PT
I would have had her meet me in Iceland.


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:28am PT
Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?

It just feels creepy. I'm sure she did, back when life was great.

empathy... try it.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Blah...lighten up dude.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:39am PT
Snowden is a hero for sure. To paraphrase Daniel Ellsberg, "at great risk to himself, Snowden has conferred an incalculable benefit on our democracy".

For those of you critical of Snowden, those of you so willing to give up all privacy, and possibly all liberty, for the sake of some safety, how did you become rock climbers? Doesn't your strong preference for safety dictate you stay at home on the couch and surf the tube?

Maybe you are sport climbers. If so, then I understand. :-)
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:46am PT
Im not questioning the divulging of goings on, but his motives now seem questionable as he hides out in China.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:47am PT
This story stinks on every level.

Of course we were being spied on since the Bush admin. Nothing new, Obama's crew just kept it going. Patriot act everyone!

And I'm sorry but how does a high school dropout and military failure like this guy manage to earn top secret CIA security clearances with a $200K job? Not even Carrie Mathison can get that. And she's not real.

Though I do love Homeland.

WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Most of the people in the US intel community know what's really going on.

They are very afraid to do anything.

Even the president is afraid.

Stupid Americans have no clue what is really happening.

Most of them are just brainwashed mental speculators.

But an awakening is starting to happening now world wide.

Due to people who stand up to these world elite aszholes .....
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:52am PT
Fluoride, as public education is in large part an exercise in conformity, very smart people sometimes have great difficulty in school. They choose not to conform. Did you watch Snowden's video? He is quite aritculate and clearly very bright.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:55am PT
very smart people sometimes have great difficulty in school.

Greg Davis, Junior College drop-out. I'm a smrat!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:00am PT
In America, the Stupid have the numbers, and the Stupid will always band together to defeat the Smart Guy.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:01am PT
You don't need any education to have a clearance.

I once worked at a site where the janitors had TS clearances.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:02am PT
Of course we were being spied on since the Bush admin.

I suggest you read Wild Bill Donovan, the founder of the OSS. The OSS
didn't do much spying on US citizens, that was J Edgar Hoover's portfolio,
which we all know he carried out with a vengeance. The stuff he did makes
anything the NSA is doing look a very weak sauce.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:04am PT
I suspect that the only reason the content of our phone calls is not being harvested is the prohibitive storage requirement.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:05am PT
yottabytes is a lotta bytes!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:11am PT
looks like Putin says he will consider offering him asylum in Russia

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/edward-snowden-russia-asylum_n_3420576.html
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:13am PT
China then Russia. Good company hes keepin now..
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:16am PT
the prohibitive storage requirement.

Just did the math, ~80 bytes per text times 7 texts a day times 300 million cell phones... 65 terabytes a year for just texts. Really not that much. Add in pictures/photos and it skyrockets, tho. I have 2 terabytes on my 4-year old home PC, FYI.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:20am PT
If he likes ballerinas, which apparently is the case, Russia would be an excellent choice.

I see that Booze Allen fired him-- funny if he filed a wrongful termination suit.

I almost had to get a security clearance once and researched the ins and outs of it, it's really not that big of a deal if you've kept your nose more or less clean.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:22am PT
They do ask you if you smoke pot.
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:24am PT


"Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century."

Actually Revere would have defected to France, after revealing troop intel to England, had he acted comparably to Snowden...
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:25am PT
Hi G
Good work for the storage requirements of texts. I was thinking of the digitized audio of a phone call, considerably more than 80 bytes.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Good work for the storage requirements of texts. I was thinking of the digitized audio of a phone call, considerably more than 80 bytes

Good call. Well, they did put a man on the moon... what's a couple of Fry's electronics worth of storage?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:36am PT
I almost had to get a security clearance once and researched the ins and outs of it, it's really not that big of a deal if you've kept your nose more or less clean.

Oh yeah? Try and get one to work at Sandia Labs. You would think they
were building atomic bombs there or something.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:37am PT
The phone call records fishing expeditions were the main focus of the hearings lately. But that is only the tip of the iceberg, as Snowden told. They aren't going to discuss in open hearings most of what they do.
What is the difference between searching the content of all internet comms and searching every house?

Separately, - if they are going to look at all comms, why is the policy itself classified? It's one thing to classify the actual infomation gained, but in a democracy the people need to know how the government works.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:39am PT
congress should shut up

they voted FOR this, over and over on renewals

now some pretend they never heard of it

posers
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:42am PT
And I'm sorry but how does a high school dropout and military failure like this guy manage to earn top secret CIA security clearances with a $200K job?

Simple. He didn't.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/booz-allen-reveals-snowdens-salary-was-122-000

Curt
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:50am PT
100 plus is still a bunch of money!

Seems like a strange action on his part. Lose your country, live in girlfriend "dancer", and now he has to worry about getting taken by the Chinese.

Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:50am PT
http://www.npr.org/2013/06/10/190160772/amid-data-controversy-nsa-builds-its-biggest-data-farm

I once worked for an NSA program that needed a bunch of storage. We were not building something that would record your phone sex -- this project was to capture technical SIGINT, the specific electromagnetic signatures of missile launchers, etc. (you know, the kind of stuff the NSA is supposed to be doing.)

They were paying about 10x the market rate for hard drives.

Why?

Lots of middlemen gotta get paid!

This whole PRISM thing is just boondoggle to get a big chunk of taxpayer cash.

It probably doesn't even work.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:54am PT
Yep defense contractors rip off the American taxpayer every day, all day. They call themselves patriots. Truman woulda thrown their asses in JAIL, in WWII.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:59am PT
im not against eliminating the spying on of our citizenry. But the methods here bug me. Why if he is a patriot does he run to communist countries? Seems a bit pre-arranged to me. Something smells- in the breeze. Why leave, when he could make massive noise here- be defended and have all the press ? If his motive was patriotism seems hes fallen short of obvious goals..?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:07am PT
Ron, they could lock him in solitary incommunicado just like Manning.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:11am PT

he broke our laws by leaking classified information, and when we get our hands on him we will prosecute, find him guilty, and sentence him to prison

that is why he left and is hiding in Hong Kong and probably will accept asylum from Russia if they make good on talking about offering it to him

we'll get him eventually and he could get 20 years here
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:12am PT
did you see what they are doing to Bradley Manning? 3 years in prison (before trial). 23 hour a day in solitary. Talking of death penalty. Trumped up charges that in no way fit the crime.

Of course there is always the possibility he in on a CIA mission, and all the press is just put out in order to get the trust of the Chinese. In the world of spooks, you can never know in the end who is who.

But as to the wire tapping, I think the only way for civil disobedience to bring this sh#t down is if we all start peppering our emails and phone calls with words like "bomb", "terror", smuggle, timer..... You get the idea. 300 million false alarms a day would shut them down I'm sure. I wonder if the Prism system will pick me up now. lol
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Damage control article mostly claiming exaggeration, if you believe it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57588337-38/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-tech-companies/

But even that likely wouldn't apply to the slides that have not been published.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?

Do you want to live in a country where good people sit by and watch the government abuse their power? If your boss asked you not to tell as he pocketed charitable donation dollars, would you speak up? Who is the traitor, the one doing the will of the democracy or the one spying on citizens?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:27am PT




Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There

Jun 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?

Heat stroke, 100 here today
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Norton, Canyoncat, et al.

Read 1984 if you haven't already done so.

A brief line from the 1984 wiki description:

"Nineteen Eighty-Four is a dystopian[1] novel by George Orwell published in 1949. The Oceanian province of Airstrip One is a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, and public mind control, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (Ingsoc) under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as thoughtcrimes.[2] Their tyranny is headed by Big Brother, the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good."
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:35am PT
"People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?"

Totally agree. He signed on to the process. Punishment will happen if he is caught. Senate and Congress and President(s) all know it's going on. If you don't want it to happen elect different people......
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:36am PT

"Do you want to live in a country where good people sit by and watch the government abuse their power? "


So now anyone with a security clearance has carte blanche to reveal whatever they want, and making the claim that they did so because "gov't is abusing its power" not only immunizes them from prosecution, but elevates them to Patrick Henry status.

He made the claim in the interview that he could wiretap anyone he wanted, up and including the POTUS. As soon as I heard him say that, he lost any credibility he might have had. There's no way that could be true.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:47am PT
So the question everyone wants to know.... who gave him the powerpoint?

All the other sh#t about Hong Kong, the Russians, his duty as a citizen (moral), as a contractor (legal) what have you?

Irrelevant.

How did he get the document... all that "I could tap" bullshit is to shield the identity of his source (assuming he's not stooge, which he probably is)

Anyway.....

DMT
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:50am PT
Cannot make the public exposure of nsa criminal activity also a crime.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:54am PT
“I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight
Getting lost in that hopeless little screen”

Democracy is coming to the U.S.A Songwriter: COHEN, LEONARD

Problem not only Edward Snowden but there a few others in his field that can see what is in store for the future of the U.S.A. and it is not Democracy but Tyranny since it is written on the wall.

Credit: lostinshanghai
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:05pm PT


"Cannot make the public exposure of nsa criminal activity also a crime."


What NSA criminal activity?


canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
I can only speak for myself. I've worked in positions where I held top secret clearance. I will take that knowledge with me to the grave. I didn't even discuss it with my parents or spouse. I've never been in the position of having to support something I didn't believe in, or believed was morally wrong.

If I did, I would do the honorable thing and quit my job (and still keep my damn mouth shut). If it was so egregious that I felt the system was being abused, I'd have reported it through the proper channels. If that didn't resolve things to my satisfaction, tough sh#t. Your option is to not "be a part of it". Quit. Stop sucking at the government tit you so hate. If what the government is doing is so wrong, and everyone who works on the program knows it's wrong, and they all quit, then the program won't function will it? But, what about people who won't quit? Hmmm, maybe this isn't a big, bad government issue, but a greedy people without moral compass issue?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Canyoncat, have you watched Snowden's interview? He doesn't seem to be motivated by money at all, and he does seem to have a very stable moral compass.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
Why would she bother? All she does is bitch about sh!t.. Not one positive post. Ever
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
This is a tough one. As I said earlier, I think the govt is abusing its power beyond what it needs to, and being less transparent than it could be.

And to give Snowden some credit, he does seem to have been a bit more discriminating than Manning about what he disclosed. Manning included docs that named actual sources...putting those people in danger. Snowden disclosed a program that he didn't agree with. And one where the disclosure doesn't probably immediately endanger anyone.

But it does seem to me that he has done a bunch of exaggeration about his personal situation and his likely level of access/control. That makes me a little suspicious. Going to China is also a little dubious.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
I will take that knowledge with me to the grave.

I bet you will.

Right to the slaughterhouse.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
The fact that vacuuming American phones and internet by this STRATCOM/NSA
program had to be approved in secret by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Court (known as FISA), created to provide secret judicial oversight of the
intelligence community actions outside the USA,

indicates that the system of checks and balances installed to prevent abuses
and overreach does not work. In other words, ending the surveillance will
not be sufficient. The bad law, the process, and the people involved that

allowed total domestic surveillance systems to be brought online
-- a creation of the so-called Patriot Act, a truly Orwellian nomenclature

must be overhauled as well.


jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:42pm PT

"Cannot make the public exposure of nsa criminal activity also a crime."


What NSA criminal activity?


Over and over and over again, the same crying-wolf...Benghazi, AP surveillance, the IRS...none of it amounted to anything, because the right goes off with wild, baseless accusations ("NSA criminal activity") that destroys whatever credibility any charge of wrong-doing might have originally had. Same thing here. In 2 weeks it'll just be another Benghazi, and people will be embarrassed they ever paid any attention to it.


splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
"What NSA criminal activity?"

The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?

although addressed to Hedge, I certainly would concede your statement

Snowden set off a needed transparency bomb at the very least

he will pay for it, he knew that when he did it

I am glad he did it so we can have an open debate about it, and I don't see how he actually harmed anyone by doing so
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
Hedge, again you see everything through the lens of right and left, conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat.

This is not a partisan issue. Take your friggin' funny glasses off!!

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
The fact that vacuuming American phones and internet by this STRATCOM/NSA
program had to be approved in secret by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Court (known as FISA), created to provide secret judicial oversight of the
intelligence community actions outside the USA,

indicates that the system of checks and balances installed to prevent abuses
and overreach does not work.

I think systematic and institutional torture proved that a long time ago, but you raise an excellent point.

Spies don't trust spies, why should we?

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
Who's idea was it to put GPS circuitry in cell phones, do you suppose???

DMT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
“but a greedy people without moral compass issue?”

It is a power issue: one being about the people who really run the world especially the ones in the US that think and believe that their moral compass needs to be stuff down our/your throat.

Guess you believe Ellsberg is a traitor but then again we would never have known the truth about the Viet Nam war and a few other things.

What is the CIA’s motto, "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
"Who's idea was it to put GPS circuitry in cell phones, do you suppose???"

Did you see that presentation by the CTO of CIA indicating that the accelerometers in your phone could be used to ID you with 99% accuracy. Your gait is that unique and diagnostic. We are snowflakes.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cia-presentation-on-big-data-2013-3?op=1
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
"The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans."

Haha, "indicating". Riiiight....

Not even going to bother asking you for a source on that.
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJmGjs&feature=youtu.be&t=6m9s
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
"What NSA criminal activity?"

However, NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (USSID 18) strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "... U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations...." without explicit written legal permission from the United States Attorney General when the subject is located abroad, or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court when within U.S. Borders.

    Wikipedia


So, unless the FISC gave orders to tap everybody's electronic communication, the NSA is operating Out Of Bounds.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Who's idea was it to put GPS circuitry in cell phones, do you suppose???

MountainProject has GPS coordinates of climbs.

CMac has a forum thread saying you don't need a cragging camera...use your cell phone instead.




WE HAVE BEEN INFILTRATED!!!
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
noticed that a progressive voice in critique of the obama administration doesnt exist in the mainstream public sphere?

the only one that exists in the supposed liberal media IS that of your general tea bagger who wants to tip over this issue in the directions of allowing them to beat their wifes and children

when the choice is that or what obama is saying, you vote obama

wonder why,
in the land of choice

we dont have the other options available?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Well I recall when GPS first started to appear in cell phones, I thought then and still do now...

'you think a tracking device in your personal communicator is a GOOD THING???'

GPS was and IS government target positioning software system. That what it was born to do.

Its like Google... what better way to collect your data than to plug you in, Borg style, to the matrix.

Plugged in, turn-on, TRACKED. GPS = Government Positioning System.

Oh, but they LET US USE IT!!!!

:-D

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
The real spy (and its debatable about nationality, eh?) is the person who gave that power point to Snowden.

Deep throat.

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
"The temptation to sacrifice liberty to end suffering often becomes an attack on the reality of the liberty itself. Rebecca West, a prominent novelist and literary critic (and erstwhile mistress of H. G. Wells) said Huxley had “rewritten in terms of our age” Dostoevsky’s famous parable of the Grand Inquisitor from The Brothers Karamazov—“a symbolic statement that every generation ought to read afresh.”

“The Grand Inquisitor” is a story within the story, a troubled Karamazov brother’s case against both man and God. In his legend, Christ returns to earth in the fifteenth century and raises a child from the dead; this miracle causes a crowd and a commotion. The Grand Inquisitor, the cardinal of Seville, has Christ arrested and, sentencing Him to death, denounces Him for condemning mankind to misery when He could have made for them a paradise on earth. Underpinning his accusation is the problem of evil: how, if God is all-loving and all-powerful, could He allow man the autonomy to sin? Christ’s life and work held out the possibility of redemption, but left man the freedom not only to doubt but to cause unspeakable suffering. Man has not been equal to that responsibility. “For nothing has ever been more insufferable for man and for human society than freedom,” the cardinal tells Christ. “Turmoil, confusion, and unhappiness—these are the present lot of mankind, after you suffered so much for their freedom!” In the Grand Inquisitor’s indictment, he pits Christ’s offer of redemption against the church’s promise of security:

With us everyone will be happy, and they will no longer rebel or destroy each other, as in your freedom, everywhere. Oh, we shall convince them that they will only become free when they resign their freedom to us, and submit to us. Will we be right, do you think, or will we be lying? They themselves will be convinced that we are right, for they will remember to what horrors of slavery and confusion your freedom led them.

The cardinal’s argument reappears in a strikingly similar confrontation in Brave New World. When John the Savage sours on the wonders of the World State, he foments a riot among the Deltas and is brought before Mustapha Mond, the Resident World Controller for Western Europe. In the thematic climax of the novel, Mond defends his spiritually arid civilization by recalling the terrible history that preceded it. Love, literature, liberty, and even science itself are sacrificed in this most scientific of societies—all to serve the goals of happiness and stability. “Happiness,” Mond says, “is a hard master—particularly other people’s happiness. A much harder master, if one isn’t conditioned to accept it unquestioningly, than truth.” To achieve lasting social happiness, all else must be given up.

Each of these interrogations lays bare the fundamental compromise at the heart of that society. Both interlocutors avow a struggle, many years ago, to give up what is now at stake—faith for the Grand Inquisitor, truth for the World Controller—to “serve” the weak, debased, tormented human race, whose happiness depends upon the satisfaction of material wants and absolute submission to authority. “Only now,” says the cardinal, “has it become possible to think for the first time about human happiness. Man was made a rebel; can rebels be happy? ... No science will give them bread as long as they remain free, but in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet.” “Truth’s a menace,” says Mond, and “science is a public danger.... Universal happiness keeps the wheels steadily turning. Truth and beauty can’t.” Against the ever-greater misery that appears to be the price of personal autonomy, both pose the question: Is man worth his humanity?"
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
Next time you are in Safeway or Costco or any big chain store they use your signal to see where you run around and what products you stop at or the area to help in their research for better marketing. They know the stuff that does not get the attention they do not resupply.

Base 104 great post not only that but the ones now doing the contracting that scares me.

Koch industries
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
Spoken like a real spook:

Of one thing I am certain...we cannot allow personnel that have taken secrecy oaths to make up their own rules about what information can or should be divulged.

Unless, of course, you have a conscious and know right from wrong. It is brave the people who stand up to their task masters and expose their wrong-doings. Especially in the face of grave punishment as a result.

And I've seen stories about when folks take the internal Whistleblower route, the 9/11 Commission Report is full of such stories.


I know some of you might disagree, but frankly, there are things of which you just have no need to know. You might like to know, or wish you knew, but that's just not the way we work, and for the most part, you've all survived quite well not knowing the details.


Reminds me of a point in the film The Pentagon Papers where they guy says [paraphrased] "Most people in the US don't want to know how they got it, they just want to wake up and have it."

But then again, as Werner points out, we Americans are a bit numb in the brain.


I cannot/will NOT speak for Prism or NSA. I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.

You cannot be serious, USSID 18 prohibits the collection of data on US citizenry, without an explicit court order. Or am I missing something?
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:45pm PT

"So, unless the FISC gave orders to tap everybody's electronic communication, the NSA is operating Out Of Bounds."


Unless I'm not following the news, nobody was "tapped". "Tapped" means listening to phone calls, and as far as I know, that didn't happen.

So, again - what NSA criminal activity are we talking about here?

Sourced, please.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
Next time you are in Safeway or Costco or any big chain store they use your signal to see where you run around and what products you stop at or the area to help in their research for better marketing.

That's bluetooth but I hear ya!

DMT
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:46pm PT


"And I've seen stories about when folks take the internal Whistleblower route, the 9/11 Commission Report is full of such stories."

And they were divulging classified material? Who?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
DMT,

There was a case here where they caught a serial burglar by his cellphone GPS. This data is constantly gathered and stored by your provider. I'm not sure how long they store it.

The police got the information just by asking. It even disturbed the police that the info was so easy to get.

Yes and video cameras in laptops can be turned on remotely too.

What code is in the operating system to make it easier for oversight?

When the first high-quality color printers came on the market the Treasury Dept made Xerox and others put a secret serial number in the firmware that create a microscopic 'brand' on any document printed with those printers. Any document could be traced back to the printer from whence it came.

This is a fact.

It was discovered like 10 or 15 years after the fact by a university thesis study, as I recall.

The point?

Who's idea was it to put global positioning software into a personal communicators, again???

Dya think Jobs dreamed that up all by himself?

What do you suppose we charge Nokia and Samsung to sell their phones here? :-)

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
A nation of sheep

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
Joe, you? Are you really having trouble comprehending? Here, I'm putting in bold the important phrase:

NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (USSID 18) strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "... U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations...." without explicit written legal permission


Now, isn't this all about the collection of information?


If not, do please tell me what the fuss is about.



And you want me to dig up real-life stories about folks who try to take the internal whistle-blower route, only to see their efforts 86'd (and themselves terminated)? Give me a couple of minutes...
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:55pm PT


Pretty funny how everyone's offering up all this anecdotal/imaginary evidence, without a shred of linked attribution to back it up.

Frankly I believe practically nothing current-event related unless it's sourced, attributed, bylined, credible journalism. - which there's plenty of related to this topic, but no one's citing.

jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:58pm PT

"Joe, you? Are you really having trouble comprehending? Here, I'm putting in bold the important phrase:"

And you're saying there was no "explicit written legal permission"?

The Supreme Court settled this in '79, I thought

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_data_question_should_the_third-party_records_doctrine_be_revisited/


Or does a SC ruling not constitute "explicit written legal permission"?
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
"Joe, you? Are you really having trouble comprehending? Here, I'm putting in bold the important phrase:"


And are you also saying that an "NSA United States Signals Intelligence Directive" is an actual legal statute, or just a "directive"?

As far as I can tell, this is a DoD regulation, not an actual law. Unless the Dept of Defense gets to make laws on its own, which I somehow doubt haha...

Or do those carry the weight of an actual legal statute?
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
They can do anything they want.

No they can't.

Only if you are stupid .......
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
When the first high-quality color printers came on the market the Treasury Dept made Xerox and others put a secret serial number in the firmware that create a microscopic 'brand' on any document printed with those printers. Any document could be traced back to the printer from whence it came.

I wonder if anyone has ever had success using a color printer to make money, literally.

I don't think that the tags were for spying on all citizens, they were to thwart potential counterfeiters. Or maybe Not??!?!?!

Is is true that tasers leave confetti that has a serial number on it or was that just a dumb movie gimmick?

Dave

P.S. and why isn't "taser" in my spell checker?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
I don't think that the tags were for spying on all citizens, they were to thwart potential counterfeiters. Or maybe Not??!?!?!

The point, my friend, is that the government compelled technology manufacturers to insert firmware into their products to make it easier for the government to track the users of that technology.

That's it. Just doing my part to fan the flames of paranoia. In this case?

Justified. GPS is part of a military weapons-system!

DMT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Ah Joe, you got me.

Right now, many high-powered lawyers are making huge amounts of money, tax-payer financed, trying to resolve this very issue. Just how much data does the law allow NSA to collect and where does it draw the line on US citizens?

From what I heard from the talking heads on the radio, it's going to be a bit before they twist the laws to say "Yep, we gave the NSA unspeakable powers to do whatever the f*#k they want."

But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.

To twist it any other way is just academic. You want the story to be written a certain way, they got authors by the dozen who will write it up that way. And now, theyhave to write it up that way, their hands are forced. But you know, and I know, it ain't supposed to be that way.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
K-man, you might not like the legal permission, but it is indeed there. Your congressperson has email, write them and bitch about changing the law. I can assure you, NOTHING is done without an appropriate warrant.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
Sal, are you saying that they have a court order to collect data on all US citizens? There is an order is that broad?

I will need to see in writing where the law says it's OK to collect data on all US citizens. And, like I said above, I was listening to some very well informed speakers on the radio, and they too were waiting for a description of how the law that passed could have been interpreted as such.

So, if anybody has the statute that gives the NSA broad authority to capture data on all citizens, post up and make me look the fool.
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:30pm PT


"And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens."

I just don't buy that the NSA combing through anonymous (to them, until court authorized) phone records for foreign terrorist contacts constitutes any kind of violation of constitutional rights. Now, if they were to do something actually unconstitutional against a citizen with that info, that wouldn't be good.


But all I hear on this thread is "NSA criminal activity", when no one can even tell me what the law is that was broken, let alone what criminal activity actually occurred.
AndyO

Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
FWIW, a guy I know was bootlegging transit passes in Europe using the printer at his job. When someone was caught with a stack of them, the cops read the microscopic serial number in the prints and tracked it back to his employer. He had already left that job, but forget about that future reference...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition.

Let's be excruciatingly clear, W's crew didn't give a wit about the Constitution or Bill of Rights - again and again their conduct was both criminal and treasonous and they only had Aschroft/Gonzales/Yoo/republicans in congress cover their asses after the fact when word started to get out about their activities. All the activities being discussed in the media are authorized by and given cover by various Bush-era laws.

And look, after 9/11 it became painfully clear that war can be waged in ways our military can't protect us from. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out 9/11 was nothing compared to a terrorist attack with a small nuke. So that sad day the dead serious question became: how to stop a terrorist nuke attack?

And that remains the question to this day. What's clear now is that some folks came up with at least the idea of an answer: that likely perpetrators of any such attack in today's world are likely to have a digital footprint. Given that threat, in combination with the various authorization and congressional funding, our nation has clearly embarked on a digital 'Manhattan project' in an attempt to prevent such attacks.

And that project doesn't just involve phones and the internet. Our coasts / shipping lanes have rings of radiation detectors and satellite monitoring for ships which might attempt to leave those lanes. Containers leaving ports are scanned. Our subways are monitored for radiation as witnessed a few months back when a subway was halted and nuke-response team flooded in to the tunnels and pin-pointed a passenger undergoing a radiation-involved medical procedure which triggered their alarms. And you can bet your ass all airport luggage is being scanned as well.

But again being clear, Obama hasn't done this, the Bush crew were the architects of this approach, they set all this in motion, gave it cover, and Congress has been funding it all along under the auspices of the intelligence committees. What Obama has done is signed the appropriations that keep it going. And you can bet any president, a Ron Paul even, would have signed those appropriation bills because guess what? No president wants another 9/11 or worse happening on their watch and have anyone say they didn't do enough to try and prevent it.

But make no mistake, the blueprint for this surveillance build out was in-place a decade ago or the data centers we see up and running it today wouldn't exist - those data centers were planned, designed, paid for by W's crew. The continued build out and implementation does not need any more presidential involvement beyond signing appropriation bills and having the Justice department provide some minimal oversight. And that oversight is also minimal by design and by law.

Hey, it's a f*#king brave new world out there and all your digital toys aren't innocent - they don't just enable your next free latte and your porn habit. They vastly and equally enable the expression of malevolent intent and can be used to coordinate a devastating nuclear attack on one of our cities. What's that you say? You want both your privacy and and protection from a terrorist nuke attack? I'd say, ok, and would you like the Easter Bunny with that as well? Because make no mistake about it Bucko, the reason this is happening is because our military is useless against some of the most serious and likely threats against our nation.

And unfortunately, capturing 60% of the datastream 100% of the time or 100% of the datastream 60% of the time just isn't going to cut it relative to even hoping to 'get lucky' in stopping such an attack. It's more of an all or nothing deal and it's taken a decade just to build out part of the ultimate data collection foundation; it will probably take another decade of to get the analysis and auto-monitoring in place. Hell, we only just learned to do it and that took the invention of Google and Facebook and other social enterprises which had to step up to the 'big data' plate.

You can't really have it both ways - social privacy and protection from a terrorist nuke attack - something has to give and the president you elected before this one made the call on how it was going to go and the build out began. The idea that this president has been much more involved than signing the continuing appropriation bills for it is ludicrous. If he came out publicly and told us all about the program and said he was terminating it then republicans would claim he's leaving us defenseless in the same way they've claimed closing Gitmo would.

The framers of the Constitution didn't and couldn't have conceived of your iPhone; our rapidly evolving digital existence and the threats it enables represents a radical, cross-cultural, trans-national realignment of human reality on all fronts and we will all have to adjust and make painful trade offs. In the end, and all digital narcissism aside, the Internet isn't just for you, the front camera on your phone isn't essential, and all this sh#t could kill you without a single Chinese paratrooper dropping in on your front lawn.

And it isn't a problem you can solve by squeezing the government's access to money or cutting it's budget; this is viewed a strategic requirement for our national defense. And its part of an opening, evolving and continuous cyber-warfare where we are way, way behind the friggin' curve compared to China (we taught it to them). Cut the budget and they'll just shift funds to keep the funding levels for this steady as it's again viewed as critical to our national defense and in many very real ways, is.

Look, I'm all for the Constitution, hate the government, don't like paying taxes, but this, this sh#t is part of a new world which has never existed before and is evolving faster than any technology shift in human history. Really hard choices are going to have to be made as there's no going back to your imaginary white, digital-free, nuclear-family world that really didn't exist in the 50's outside of peoples imaginations. What's it gonna be...? Privacy or protection, because you can't have both and that's what this is all about.
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:34pm PT

"I will need to see in writing where the law says it's OK to collect data on all US citizens."


Phone records, which is what this is about? Here:


"Under the third-party records doctrine, a person cannot assert a Fourth Amendment interest in information knowingly provided to a third party."

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_data_question_should_the_third-party_records_doctrine_be_revisited/


jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT


"Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition."


And how on earth do you claim to know that?


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
So at this point, since we know the NSA collects our data, we knowingly provide that data to a third party. I see.

But what about before the leak? Our phone conversations were not knowingly provided to third parties.

If I txt my bookie, only he and I are supposed to know about that conversation. That is, until The Guardian came around and told me otherwise.

Still looking ...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:43pm PT
the were planned, designed, paid for by W's crew.

Great post healyje but I object to the characterization 'paid for' by W's crew. They didn't pay sh#t.

President Obama is much like his predecessor when it comes to military matters. While I don't expect him to start an idiotic war in another Iraq I wouldn't put it past him either.

But he said in the run up to the first election how he'd roll and he's pretty much done that. No surprises, in other words.

Laying this at the feet of President Bush is somewhat ridiculous. This one is the Corp. Machine at work, the CEO is irrelevant.

Of course President Obama funded the programs. Of course democrats had a major hand in it. Yall saw the votes. Congressional cowards voted yellow because they knew the truth - they would have been punished in the ballot box had they bucked the panic.

Nothing has changed.

DMT
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
Wonder now if there will a run on these bags. Sh&t still waiting for guns and ammo to be on the selves. Not that I need them for the moment.

Credit: lostinshanghai

Credit: lostinshanghai

Smart [not that smart] cell phone on top of bag with signal ATT and the bars.

Credit: lostinshanghai

back of bag

Credit: lostinshanghai

Credit: lostinshanghai

Credit: lostinshanghai

As in the picture now you see it and now in the bag you don't. or they can not pick up the signal but still can do the work.

For 100% protection you would put the cell phone bag in the large laptop
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
Bush-Bad

Obama-Good

They're both doing the same dang thing...

Obama, expanded the program....

jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:49pm PT


"So at this point, since we know the NSA collects our data, we knowingly provide that data to a third party. I see."

No - the telco is the 3rd party you're knowing providing the data to. NSA would be a 4th party.


The question I've already asked on this thread is - why do you trust your telco, but not the gov't?

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
they're all bad,some just worse than others
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
Privacy or protection, because you can't have both and that's what this is all about.

Nice writeup healyje. Indeed, the day after 9-11, our Gov't was wrestling with the problem of having an enemy that was not a state (or state sponsored).


Carry your phone, take pictures with it. It does a great job of documenting your life, where you've been and where you're likely to go. That's the new digital age we live in, and you can love it or leave it.

My problem is that the carrot is "you want the evidence to be a mushroom cloud?" Although the stick is, "I see you went to that peace riot. Who did you talk to when you were there. And oh, sorry about the pepper spray stain on your tee shirt..."

Dissident is now a terrorist activity. And they can hold you without charge, indefinitely.


That's the mushroom cloud I fear.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
I wonder if anyone has ever had success using a color printer to make money, literally.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100000064

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
HP printers will give the US access to ones printer if looking for children's porno.

Reagan with Meese when he was Gov of CA used undisclosed places that NSA would collect on political activists. Everyone in Santa Monica that had anything to do with anti war movement finally figured it out since they were not getting any monthly bills. 3-4 months after NSA had to figure a better way to hide their tracks. They did.

That was the old days, now they contract the companies [thousands] that provide the service the Gov needs.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
Laying this at the feet of President Bush is somewhat ridiculous. This one is the Corp. Machine at work, the CEO is irrelevant.

Total bullsh#t. Once charted, funded, and underway the CEO is somewhat irrelevant; but all of this was wholly enabled by the laws authorizing it and those laws are and were entirely owned by BushCo. This is again, why giving - or in the case of BushCo, allowing the Executive to take - more power is perilous business. That crew fostered and leveraged a climate of fear in the wake of 9/11 to do a lot of unsavory, explicitly illegal, and outright treasonous things and this is just another one of those 'things' started illegally and given legal cover after the fact - it's how that crew did business and what kept John Yoo employed.

And hey, it was just part of the neocon's big opportunity to restore the fantasy of a god-given right to white male world supremacy so it was a-ok. How's that worked out so far...?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:20pm PT
Barry Dunham debates Barrack Obama



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.

hardly

the program was started under the Patriot Act in response to 9/11

congress continues to vote to reauthorize it

all Bush and Obama did was simply sign it into law

as they should do because there would have to be a very good reason for a President to veto a bill that both houses of congress voted on and passed

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Healy is correct,give me an idea ,What could Obama have done?

Not a GD thing.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
You're right. Obama has to do things exactly as Bush would. He has no choice in the matter.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.

Yeah, well the American people, Congress, and the UN were all both under- and mis-informed about a lot of things by BushCo. Now you can claim Jim Sensenbrenner (R. Wi - Patriot Act 'author') and Congress didn't understand the 'charter' (and that's probably why they picked him to introduce the bill), but you can bet your ass it's all authorized and they are not 'overstepping' their charter.

If anything, they are probably behind-the-curve in implementing their charter. As I said, for things to be already built out to the level they are means that charter was explicitly to embark on a 'Manhattan Project'-like push to build out this capability as a strategic element of the defense of the nation. No 'over-stepping' involved, if anything, they're under-stepping the project goals and explicit intent.

Again, if someone sails a nuke-in-a-container into Long Beach, SF or NY Harbor and sets if off in the port you folks are all going to be asking if we were trying hard enough to stop it. I'd personally say they're trying pretty hard and folks just don't like the reality of what that takes and means.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
what is your point, Chaz?


should Obama have vetoed the bill just so he would not be the same as Bush on that issue?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
You should all know by now who the Koch Brothers are:

David baby of Koch Industries' contributions have gone toward achieving legislation one particular defense appropriation. You want to know what it is. Where most of the funding gone to?

Ron I believe you brought up the subject months ago while being on a climb and something to do with a hilo and I responded and you agreed.

2015 FBI will be using the system mostly in the big cities but can still [providing they are interested in you or anyone they want to] can do it anywhere. You or someone overseas CIA takes over.

Maybe Snowden already knows this and believes it is wrong. Think I brought up the subject a while back with the TV show: Person of Interest and what the US will look like in the future[not the story line].

Plus he would know about the plans that we are downsizing our defense to make it more efficient by using more Special Forces units and the Pentagon being used less and the CIA will use rouge contractors like Eric Prince [Blackwater fame] R2 to do the dirty work with low paying a dollar a day mercs from countries in that area ME and using drones made in S. Africa.
All paid by the US taxpayer.

So maybe the more he tells in the following months the more the discussion about why he did it comes to light.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.

The president has no authority to stop the program without going to Congress, revealing the scope of its existence and goals, and explicitly asking Congress to shut it down. What are the odds any president would do that once one of them puts the wheels in motion? Zip, nada, none.

The political reality is just as you say: Obama couldn't help it and that's because BushCo both designed it all that way and because what exactly do you propose we do to protect the nation from a terrorist nuke attack in its place (no, there isn't an iPhone app for that).
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
Credit: lostinshanghai

You are correct he had to please the Republicans, same reason he has not closed Guantanamo Bay like he said he would.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
Exactly,Healy
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
The Supreme Court ruled that police officers can take DNA samples without a warrant from people they arrest for serious crimes without violating the Fourth Amendment attention

Last part June 02 13 PBS Evening news

GWEN IFILL: Not whenever you're stopped. So, if you're pulled over by the side of the road and under suspicion of having done something, they can't swab you at the side of the road; you have to be under arrest, in custody?

MARCIA COYLE: Well, if you are arrested or if you are stopped by police on the road, the police can do a search incident to an arrest, or they can -- if they have probable cause to believe that you have committed a crime, they are usually required to get a warrant. But they also can search if they are concerned that their safety is at risk.

Think there will be any abuse of safety?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be.

Allowing the surveillance program to proceed had nothing to do with 'pleasing' republicans and everything to do with the choice of having to explicitly and publicly exposing it and asking Congress to shut it down with no clear alternative to present for our national defense.

So 'pleasing'? Please...

And again, what do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack which is a million times more likely than a Chinese paratrooper landing in LA?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
lostinshanghai, don't even mention the new law in NY.

But I digress ...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
"He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be."



Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:05pm PT
What do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack ...


Obviously a tough, but valid, question. Personally, I'm of the notion that a bully is hated by more folks on the playground than he is adored.

Imagine the cost of the Afghan war. The untold destruction, civilian lives lost, and emotional scars left on the country. Take the same money spent on bombs, and pour that into the infrastructure of the country. Schools for girls and women, upgraded agriculture infrastructure, etc, etc. Beleive it or not, trillion$ can actually still buy things these days, especially in third-world countries.

Now this might not rid us of the threat of Afghan Taliban. But I'll tell ya, the folks that gained by those schools and infrastructure would sure be on our side. And that goes a long way in the Afghan countryside.

Can you imagine the difference in the world if we did the same to Iraq, instead of bombing it back to the stone age?

I know, I'm high. But we'd better soon realize that any war on this planet is a civil war, and as michael so nicely pointed out above, there's bigger fish to fry than silly wars between ego-filled hawks.

Terrorists with bombs? They are sponsored by states who want to war with us, more than likely due to our ongoing foreign policy of imperialism.

Drones in Yemen anybody?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.

wrong

President Obama soon after inauguration signed an Executive Order to close GITMO, as he said he would do.

Congress refused to allow it to be closed.

If you recall, maybe not, there was a big debate in the Senate about where exactly to transfer the GITMO detainees. The Republicans were screaming those guys were SUCH a threat that they could not be held safely in non-military run prisons.

But really, what exactly do YOU care so much about those guys in GITMO anyway?
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:11pm PT

"Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants."


You're an idiot. Gitmo can't close because there's nowhere for the detainees to go, not because Obama refuses to close it.


Congrats for the stupidest post on this thread.


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
And now President Obama blows smoke up our asses too. I have come to detest 'the other guy did it' partisan politics. President Obama, for a fact, authorized and continued this program. Ergo, Bush II.

Suck it.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
werd....
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
A Conservative friend asked the other day,knowing i am a liberal socialist,"When are you going to own it?Economy,security,etc. etc.,When is not going to be Bush's fault"?


You probably know what i said.

Good question?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
werd (wurd, wuhrd, worrd)...
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:28pm PT
""When are you going to own it?Economy,security,etc. etc.,When is not going to be Bush's fault"?"


The economy definitely is coming back. I have friends who are realtors and they're saying it's a better market now than it was in 2007. They're dealing with home sales that have 10 or 15 bids on them, and people are paying cash right now. And housing is traditionally the last thing to come back after a recession.

The people complaining about the economy now are the ones who refuse to do anything to improve their situation (learn a new trade, move etc).


"werd".


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
on come on

the US economy went into RECESSION in November of 2007

we were losing millions and millions of jobs

the stock market lost 50% of its value, trillions of dollars of Americans savings destroyed

compare that to now for christ's sake

"own the economy now" ...damn right,

god people have short memories of the utter economic destruction under Bush
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
President Obama, for a fact, authorized and continued this program. Ergo, Bush II.

How, in fact, has Obama authorized this program? He has only "continued" the program by signing continuing appropriate bills for it.

And yet again, your alternative for defense against terrorist attacks? And as I've been saying it's simply one leg of a national defense strategy aimed at stopping terrorist attacks.

The basic problem here is that the program was shrouded in secrecy from the beginning - again, by BushCo, just like rendition, torture, and parallel sham 'intelligence' [manufacturing] organizations, etc. The programs should have been upfront and public explaining the national security goals, but then that would have also required acknowledging that our military - with it's uber-bloated budget, can't really protect use from the most viable threats.

In ten years time you're cell phones may monitor and automatically report radiation, earthquakes, chemical leaks, auto crashes and gunshots in urban areas. Welcome to the digital world.

Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

Given the very real threat, the only open question relative to Obama is what could he reasonably be or have been expected to do about it other than sign the continuing budget resolutions? I suspect you'd have quietly done exactly the same thing.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
let us be correct in that Obama not only approved the newly redrafted patriot act, but added greatly to it in language and scope.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
The Gov. printing money to cover bad mortgage debt... Joe, and 2007 we where in a collapse, so any market is better than that.

One of the reason housing is going up is because the super wealthy and foreign investors are buying up cheap housing (in cash) so, in turn, the current housing market is in no way indicative of a thriving economy.

More Obama snow job, but you won't look at your hero critical I know...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
let us be correct in that Obama not only approved the newly redrafted patriot act, but added greatly to it in language and scope.

A completely and utterly false claim. Obama signed the 'PATRIOT Sunsets Extension Act of 2011' which extends three existing provisions of the Patriot Act for four years: roving wiretaps, searches of business records, and conducting surveillance of "lone wolves". All three provisions were extended, but with new restrictions and congressional oversight placed on those powers.

So in fact, the truth is entirely the opposite of your claim.

The Gov. printing money to cover bad mortgage debt...

As opposed to the Gov. printing money to cover not one, but two, unnecessary pre-emptive wars...

Oh and Obama isn't my hero - I'm from Chicago and know better, I voted for Hillary...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
Norton ,that is what i replied.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:21pm PT
Why aren't the Republicans screaming for hell or you do not hear anything from McSain. Would it be anything to do with funds from the Koch brothers in the last election that they wasted by trying to defeat our current Pres.

And the answer to is the Koch brothers who have funded and is heavily invested in Facial Recognition Technology software and everthing that includes for making a good shot: skin tone, eyes, ears, nose, teeth and making sure new photos on getting your current or new auto license: no smiles.

So support Congress Corp. What can we do without them.

So color your hair a different color until they find out and need to upgrade their software.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:31pm PT
The Koch brothers make toilet paper (Georgia Pacific),

Carpet and Lycra (INVISTA),

Petroleum products (Flint Hill)

Fertilizer (Koch Fertilizer LLC),

Beef (Matador Land and Cattle)

and own a pipeline.

Get the tinfoil off your head.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
Coz, that's true. I read an article about how home buyers are now competing against the banks to buy homes. And this is how I predicted it--the housing crisis would cause untold foreclosures, and then the banks [or the elite] can swoop in to buy up the real estate for a fraction of what was previously on the books.

Buying with cash? You can bet that ain't the "middle class" doing the buying.

But it's true, the stock market has hit all-time highs. What percentage of US folk have a rich portfolio nowa-days, when the top 0.1% earn half of all capital gains?

Wow, this subject seems to cover many things...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
No.

Answer to the question posed by the US national anthem.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
good going wilber!

it's pretty damn easy to prove how god awful ignorant they are, isn't it?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Get the tinfoil off your head.

Get your head out of your ass.
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:04pm PT

" Joe, and 2007 we where in a collapse, so any market is better than that."

I (and the realtors I know) was referring to mid-2007, at the peak of the bubble, before the collapse.


"the current housing market is in no way indicative of a thriving economy."

Which is, in fact, thriving. Not compared to housing-bubble or tech-bubble "thriving", but that's a false dichotomy to begin with. Maybe "robust recovery" is less offensive to your wingnut sensibilties...

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:05pm PT
can we all just retro bolt a coz route into decency to get along???
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:07pm PT


"can we all just retro bolt a coz route into decency to get along???"

Isn't that why they got chopped in the first place?

(hahaha)
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

here you say its bushco's fault. while bush certainly started it, when will obama take the responsibility for anything?


Given the very real threat, the only open question relative to Obama is what could he reasonably be or have been expected to do about it other than sign the continuing budget resolutions? I suspect you'd have quietly done exactly the same thing.

here you justify why obama had to keep it going, you argue that its the best decision.

so WTF is it? is it that obama actually decided it is alright (hell he justified it on tv), or is it still bushco's fault.

some people are so f*#king flawed in their logic that it blows my mind. you are as deluded as any hard core teabagger...f*#king amazing.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
"the current housing market is in no way indicative of a thriving economy."


Try building houses for a living and not believe that.
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:36pm PT


"while bush certainly started it, when will obama take the responsibility for anything?"

"some people are so f*#king flawed in their logic that it blows my mind."


Agreed. What "logic" are you using to conclude that Obama is shirking responsibility for "anything"?





Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
he is not hedge, you are. obama owns this now so why the f*#k does healy try and blame bush?

jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:58pm PT

"he is not hedge, you are. obama owns this now so why the f*#k does healy try and blame bush?"


Uh, well...Healy and I both support the NSA surveillance, which Bush started. Not sure what you mean by "blame".

The only problem I had with Bush doing it was that he and his admin were barely competent enough to tie their own shoes, let alone gather intel. Even most repubs now admit this.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
norton,

pull your head out of your ass. i said that healyje by his own post blames bush.......then turns around and says that the NSA is doing the right thing anyway.

you f*#kers need some remedial reading comprehension. but that does explain why you believe everything obama spoon feeds you.
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:06pm PT

""he is not hedge, you are. obama owns this now so why the f*#k does healy try and blame bush?""

You're saying we're hypocrites for "blaming" Bush for starting something we both support?

We're not "blaming" Bush for starting it, we're supporting Bush for starting it, and we're supporting Obama for continuing it.


Weren't you just complaining about "the flawed logic some people use"?
jghedge

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
"you f*#kers need some remedial reading comprehension."


Or maybe you just need to slow down, and make sure that what you're posting actually makes sense, and that it accurately conveys your meaning

Read through it a couple times, and make sure it's really what you're trying to say, before posting it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
Barry Dunham debates Barrack Obama





Barry can speak for himself.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
pull your head out of your ass. i said that healyje by his own post blames bush.......then turns around and says that the NSA is doing the right thing anyway

I'm not saying "the NSA is doing the right thing", what I am saying is the threat of a terrorist nuke attack on one of our major ports is a very real and present threat. I am saying that this evolving digital world is highly complex. I am saying BushCo made the call that this was going to be our response and a major pillar of our national defense going forward. I am saying Obama has had zero power to stop it other than by refusing to sign the intelligence appropriation bills and telling the American people that he's simply stopping it with no viable alternative strategy to deal with the threat. If he did that you would be all on his case for leaving America defenseless.

Crikey, you clowns are always up in arms about 'border security' - this is all about 'securing the [digital] borders' or are you really that dense?

Again, Obama didn't authorize these programs, but neither he nor any other president is going to de-fund them without having some remote inkling of what we would do instead. Again, what are you suggesting is the alternative? Blind faith? A wink and a nod?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20130611/abc54ab2-03f0-4e1e-bb7a-2937989fdedf

Congress briefed on US surveillance programs

By LARA JAKES
From Associated Press
June 11, 2013 11:43 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — Dogged by fear and confusion about sweeping spy programs, intelligence officials sought to convince House lawmakers in an unusual briefing Tuesday that the government's years-long collection of phone records and Internet usage is necessary for protecting Americans — and does not trample on their privacy rights.

But the country's main civil liberties organization wasn't buying it, filing the most significant lawsuit against the massive phone record collection program so far. The American Civil Liberties Union and its New York chapter sued the federal government Tuesday in New York, asking a court to demand that the Obama administration end the program and purge the records it has collected.

The ACLU is claiming standing as a customer of Verizon, which was identified last week as the phone company the government had ordered to turn over daily records of calls made by all its customers.

The parade of FBI and intelligence officials who briefed the entire House on Tuesday was the latest attempt to soothe outrage over National Security Agency programs which collect billions of Americans' phone and Internet records. Since they were revealed last week, the programs have spurred distrust in the Obama administration from across the globe.

Several key lawmakers, including House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, refocused the furor Tuesday on the elusive 29-year-old former intelligence contractor who is claiming responsibility for revealing the surveillance programs to two newspapers. Boehner joined others in calling Edward Snowden a "traitor."

But attempts to defend the NSA systems by a leading Republican senator who supports them highlighted how confusingly intricate the programs are — even to the lawmakers who follow the issue closely.

Explaining the programs to reporters, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a member of the Senate Armed Services and Judiciary committees, initially described how the NSA uses pattern analysis of millions of phone calls from the United States, even if those numbers have no known connection to terrorism. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has vigorously maintained that there are strict limits on the programs to prevent intruding on Americans' privacy, and senior officials quickly denied Graham's description.

Graham later said he misspoke and that Clapper was right: The phone records are only accessed if there is a known connection to terrorism.

House lawmakers had more questions and, in many cases, more concerns about the level of surveillance by U.S. intelligence agencies Tuesday after FBI, Justice and other intelligence officials briefed them on the two NSA programs.

"Really it's a debate between public safety, how far we go with public safety and protecting us from terrorist attacks versus how far we go on the other side," said Rep. C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger of Maryland, top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "Congress needs to debate this issue."

He said his panel and the Judiciary Committee would examine what has happened and see whether there are recommendations for the future.

Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., like many members, said he was unaware of the scope of the data collection.

"I did not know 1 billion records a day were coming under the control of the federal executive branch," Sherman said.

Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., said there was a lot of heated discussion and that, "Congress didn't feel like they were informed."

Cohen conceded many lawmakers had failed to attend classified briefings in previous years where they could have learned more. "I think Congress has really found itself a little bit asleep at the wheel," he said.

One of the Senate's staunchest critics of the surveillance programs put Clapper in the crosshairs, accusing him of not being truthful in March when he asked during a Senate hearing whether the NSA collects any data on millions of Americans. Clapper said it did not. Officials generally do not discuss classified information in public settings, reserving discussion on top-secret programs for closed sessions with lawmakers where they will not be revealed to adversaries.

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said he had been dissatisfied with the NSA's answers to his questions and had given Clapper a day's advance notice prior to the hearing to prepare an answer. Not fully believing Clapper's public denial of the program, Wyden said he asked Clapper privately afterward whether he wanted to stick with a firm 'no' to the question.

On Tuesday, Wyden revealed his efforts to get Clapper to tell him about the program and called for hearings to discuss the programs. He was also among a group of senators who introduced legislation to force the government to declassify opinions of a secret court that authorizes the surveillance.

"The American people have the right to expect straight answers from the intelligence leadership to the questions asked by their representatives," Wyden said.

Clapper's spokesman did not comment on Wyden's statement. But in an interview with NBC News earlier this week, Clapper said he "responded in what I thought was the most truthful or least most untruthful manner, by saying, 'No,'" because the program was classified.

The Senate Intelligence Committee will be briefed on the programs again Thursday.

Congressional leaders and intelligence committee members have been routinely briefed about the spy programs, officials said, and Capitol Hill has at least twice renewed laws approving them. But the disclosure of their sheer scope stunned some lawmakers, shocked foreign allies from nations with strict privacy protections and emboldened civil liberties advocates who long have accused the government of being too invasive in the name of national security.

On the heels of new polls showing a majority of Americans support some aspects of the spy programs, lawmakers defended the daily surveillance of billions of phone and Internet records that they said have helped make the U.S. safer in the years after the 9/11 attacks. A poll by The Washington Post and the Pew Research Center conducted over the weekend found Americans generally prioritize the government's need to investigate terrorist threats over the need to protect personal privacy.

But a CBS News poll conducted June 9-10 showed that while most approve of government collection of phone records of Americans suspected of terrorist activity and Internet activities of foreigners, a majority disapproved of federal agencies collecting the phone records of ordinary Americans. Thirty percent agreed with the government's assessment that the revelation of the programs would hurt the U.S.' ability to prevent future terrorist attacks, while 57 percent said it would have no impact.

Instead, ire focused on Snowden, the CIA employee-turned-NSA contractor who admitted in an online interview that he exposed the programs in an attempt to safeguard American privacy rights from government snooping.

"He's a traitor," Boehner said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

"The disclosure of this information puts Americans at risk," Boehner said. "It shows our adversaries what our capabilities are. And it's a giant violation of the law."

His comments echoed a growing chorus in Congress condemning Snowden's actions.

"This is treason," Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., said late Monday.

Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., also chimed in Monday, calling the disclosure "an act of treason," and that Snowden should be prosecuted.

Only one American — fugitive al-Qaida propaganda chief Adam Gadahn — has been charged with treason since the World War II era. A law enforcement official said prosecutors were building a case against Snowden on Tuesday and had not decided what charges would be brought against him.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because there is no final decision on the charges. But it's unlikely that Snowden would be charged with treason, which carries the death penalty as a punishment, and therefore could complicate extradition from foreign countries.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
from the net

"The 54 words of the Fourth Amendment are remarkably clear: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Seem pretty clear to me. The constitution has be shat on by Bush and Obama both

Shame!

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:30am PT
Well, if you are one of those constitutional literalist like Scalia and a lot of conservatives and libertarians then what the NSA is surveilling aren't 'papers' but rather bytes of aether.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:33am PT
Empire.

DMT
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:08am PT
Well, if you are one of those constitutional literalist like a Scalia and a lot of conservatives and libertarians then what the NSA is surveilling aren't 'papers' but rather bytes of aether.

Those bytes of aether would be "and effects".
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:10am PT
Drone him.. He COULD have been a hero but left for communist countries which now makes him a zero. He could have been the "Paul Revere" but instead he now has bidding open for the rest of his stolen intel. And he running to communist countries seems to have been a pre-planner deal. A hero would have already given what they had to the news media and not asked money for it. And a hero wouldnt be setting in CHina having a bidding war with them and Russia.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Joe,

Agree's with a far right Bush policy, very interesting.

I think Karl hit the nail on the head.

I'm a Verizon customer and it pisses me off my Government (private contractor) with out a warrant is tracking my phone activity, it should bother everyone.

Anyway, I'm not afraid of terrorist, really... Certainly not enough to give up my freedoms.

Heayje, where do you get this nuke attack of our ports stuff, yes they could seal one up in container, but we have tons of security for that, and what does it have to do with our personal lives and internet use?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:35am PT
Unhinged, and Dr F will never get their tummy tats removed.



splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:35am PT
hey, here is a freaky thing that happened to me just a couple months ago. i listen to a lot of youtube music vids. one evening i had either just clicked on some vid, or was trying to get the lyrics to a vid/song and my computor totally froze up. this notice appeared and locked the computor onto it. it said it was from the FBI and that they were fining me for downloading unauthorized music or something or other. they wanted $250 wihtin so many hours. i figured it was some sort of virus/scam as soon as i saw that. i crashed my computer and reloaded it. anyway, i found out it was just that (a scam). the "freaky" thing about it, though, was that they had taken my picture (through my own webcam which i never use). and posted it with the notice. it was taken just seconds before my computer locked up. my point is, if they can do that, what could the real fbi do? yikes!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:40am PT
"...particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

They didn't do that. They just siezed everybody's everything.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:52am PT
What commie countries did he run to?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:50am PT
Being in agreement with coz is scary. Being in agreement with coz and karlbaba at the same time?

That's a Game 7 3-pointer, nawmean?

DMT
jghedge

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:51am PT

Just to keep everyone updated: The Supreme Court decided in 1979 that Info or data you willingly and knowingly give to a 3rd party isn't subject to 4th amendment protection. You can't claim illegal search and seizure if you give something to a 3rd party, and they then give it to the cops/gov't.

AKA the 3rd Party Records Doctrine.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_data_question_should_the_third-party_records_doctrine_be_revisited/
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:27am PT
DMT,

It's not that bad, I'm middle of the road and Karl, well he's the Hindi love God of ST.

Namaste.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:39am PT
I was just yanking your chain coz.

I'll hoist a beer with you some day, if I have my way.

DMT
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:04am PT
Get free 3 month trial app from SEECRYPT.COM (after $3 a mo) that will hide all calling metadata from snooping alphabet soup g-men.

Receive and make calls from an iPhone with double encrypted one time use keys
and prevent anyone from ever knowing to who or the number dialed.

Even your service provider will not know you ever made a call. Just some data bits are used and look as if you used data without any id or a persons phone number.


http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/06/new-app-claims-to-prevent-government-eavesdropping-on-cell-phones/

https://www.facebook.com/Seecrypt
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:50am PT
"Just to keep everyone updated: The Supreme Court decided in 1979 that Info or data you willingly and knowingly give to a 3rd party isn't subject to 4th amendment protection. You can't claim illegal search and seizure if you give something to a 3rd party, and they then give it to the cops/gov't. "


a decisions rendered at the time when the only information you were giving away was an address and a time stamp.

J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
The government stealing everyone's data but saying its ok because
they have not looked at it yet, is like bank robbers claiming its ok
because they have not had time to spend all the money yet.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
LOTS of mystery within the gubbmint right now eh! What about the conflicting stories of perp number three in the Boston incident killed in Florida and the SCRUBBING of all info on that by the media.?? That is now said to have been an execution not a defensible shooting by LEOs.

Listening to my phone now, while they track each word im typing here ? Possibly.. Yes ive had it with our giving up all liberties for safety - its just like the old doods said,, youll enjoy NONE of it if you do.

But as far as divulging and running to China or Russia while having a bidding war for the intel proves one selfish motive. Piss poor style in any way you can think of it.

He COULD have given it to OUR media and handled it in a MUCH different way than making himself a drone target by any definition.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

A. I think the current state of partisanship of politics is poisonous. President Bush bad, President Obama good - naive. In many ways they are indistinguishable, and this topic is certainly one of them. Big brother is big brother regardless of party affiliation. Fascists can come from either extreme of the political spectrum.

B. I do not believe for a second about the 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'. Not for a second. Would the Al Gore administration or the Kerry administration have agreed to build it? YES.

DMT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Being in agreement with coz is scary. Being in agreement with coz and karlbaba at the same time?

That's a Game 7 3-pointer, nawmean?

These are, indeed, strange times, DMT. I've found myself not only agreeing with, but bolstering the arguments of Norton and Joe Hedge the last few days.

I think you've put it well, though, about the ridiculously partisan posts we've seen on this issue (e.g. [choose one] [_] Bush bad/ Obama good or [_] Bush good/ Obama bad).

John
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
weird week I AGREE with Dingus.;^).Perhaps we should all buy a lotto ticket?


jghedge

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:43pm PT

"a decisions rendered at the time when the only information you were giving away was an address and a time stamp."


And the 2nd was written at a time when all people had were muskets - yet it's still considered gospel.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
Splitter, look at this FBI warning about the virus that attacked you.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/august/new-internet-scam
dirtbag

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
I'm not sure who I agree with. I see both sides. I do think Obama has some ownership of this.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
"And the 2nd was written at a time when all people had were muskets - yet it's still considered gospel."


one of jeffersons favorite activities was traveling to dispel the wifestales about stones falling from the sky


if the second meant what the nra claims, we should be allowed to purchase WHATEVER it takes to actually threaten the government

coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Joe,

You just like to argue, perhaps you could take that big brain of yours and stop cutting and pasting.

Add some real content to the conversation would ya?

Yes Bush/Obama are the different faces of corporate America, I suspect all this surveillance has almost nothing to do with catching criminals/terrorist but more so, market research and big dollars.

They will probably be in every aspect of our personal lives soon and Dr F and Joe will still be talking about the scripted talking points.

DMT, the beers on me brother.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
Here's what he told the NY Times:
“People who think I made a mistake in picking Hong Kong as a location misunderstand my intentions,” he told the newspaper, The South China Morning Post. “I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality.”

Translation: "Oh crap, me and my sorry-assed high school education didn't do a great job in planning my next move. Well I don't want to admit I did a boneheaded move by coming to HK, I'll just try to play it cool . . ."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
Hong Kong's overlords in Beijing are never going to let Hong Kong extradite Snowden to the U.S.

Look at CNN's top headline now on cnn.com:

"NSA leaker says U.S. hacks China"
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:23pm PT
I did chuckle at the observed irony of running to China, of all places! :-)

Makes me suspicious of the guy. Who gave him the power point? Likely, the Chinese government did, by hook or by crook.

Hero or pawn?

DMT

ps. Ok so he can't run to an ally. But CHINA????
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
The daily newspaper spew about the Chinese hacking our poor inept military is merely part of a propaganda campaign designed to prop up failing military budgets in the big wind down from a decade of war.

For every Chinese hack you can bet your ass there's a US hack. This sh#t goes both ways.

Hmmm, didn't President Obama meet with Chinese premier in Palm Springs last week? How convenient this revelation of NSA spying on American citizens, huh? I wonder if NSA will outsource? I bet the Chinese can do it cheaper!

DMT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
The real question is why he didn't take his girlfriend to Hong Kong with him.

Are pics like these even allowed on the Taco now?

Or is Snowden's girlfriend "Too Hot for the Taco(R)"?

We report. You decide!









[youtube=http://youtu.be/RRaPeBC-NSs]




JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
I wonder if NSA will outsource? I bet the Chinese can do it cheaper!

Actually, DMT, the NSA did outsource. They just may not have imported the outsourced product (i.e., they purported to use domestic companies.) Snowden was an employee of an outsourcee.

John
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
I know a lot more about government contracting than I am authorized to discuss ;-)

DMT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
One sentence story

interesting timing

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cia-deputy-director-michael-morell-resigns
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
A. I think the current state of partisanship of politics is poisonous. President Bush bad, President Obama good - naive. In many ways they are indistinguishable, and this topic is certainly one of them. Big brother is big brother regardless of party affiliation. Fascists can come from either extreme of the political spectrum.

Again, complete claptrap and if you're now subscribing to Jonah Goldberg's obscene nonsense I'm somewhat at a loss for words.

B. I do not believe for a second about the 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'. Not for a second. Would the Al Gore administration or the Kerry administration have agreed to build it? YES.

I didn't say, 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'; I did say that in the wake of 9/11, and understanding it could have been much worse, BushCo made a call to put a 'Manhattan Project'-scale digital communications surveillance and radiation monitoring program into place. What we're debating today is exactly that.

Would Gore or Kerry have built it? Gore no, Kerry probably yes. Gore certainly would have had a much more public exploration of the issue and any implementation.

Coz, my nuke terrorist scenario is simply the most realistic and likely way anyone is going to make a nuke attack against us in the future. We, the Russians, Europeans, China, India and Pakistan built hundreds of container-capable artillery nukes not to mention 'suitcase' and mortar nukes.

H-912 transport container for Mk-54 SADM.
H-912 transport container for Mk-54 SADM.
Credit: healyje

"Davy Crockett" version
"Davy Crockett" version
Credit: healyje

And my speculation on that front is entirely validated by the occasional news stories about cargo vessel interdictions, the recent Chicago TSA VIPR team stopping a Metro train (not subway) after a radiation alert, the development of radiation monitoring bouys, and monitoring container straddle carriers.

Not to mention DHS publicly-stated goals of 100% container ship / container inspection coverage and cargo airlines public resistance to 100% coverage of air cargo tells you DHS is in a full-court monitoring press that is the radiation monitoring element of a strategic program of which Prism likely represents the comm element of.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
dont forget a clutch of christian psyco's almost stole a bomber load of nuclear cruise missles under brush cutter bushies watch?


the managed to have them flow across several state lines without permissions

off loaded and about to drive off the base




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weapons_incident
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcKVgWYkZa4

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Russians, Europeans, China, India and Pakistan built hundreds of container-capable artillery nukes not to mention 'suitcase' and mortar nukes.

So what does that have to do with monitoring EVERY domestic phone call?

(As far as I'm concerned international communications traffic is fair game)
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
You have to connect a helluva lot of dots between a database with everyone's phone records and nuke being smuggled into the country.

I'd really like to hear about this algorithm that looks for patterns in phone records that identifies potential terrorism.

Do terrorists really exhibit a different pattern of phone calls than any of the 300+ million people that use the phone for business/personal/whatever use every day?

Of course not.

Terrorist phone calls - if they even use the phone - would look like any other "business" activity.

Anybody sophisticated enough to get a nuke is going to be sophisticated enough to cover their tracks.

I'd like to hear about this "algorithm" because I always enjoy a good laugh.

This is a money grab, nothing more. It doesn't do sh#t to protect us but it gets lots of defense contractors paid for decades to come.



rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
and anyone who knows math can tell you that making such links inside the data set they have sucked up cant be done

theres just not enough terrorists to create a pattern an algorythm can go looking for




there are however lots of activities involving many times more reasonable citizens than terrorist ever had available doing things corperations might not like
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Again, complete claptrap and if you're now subscribing to Jonah Goldberg's obscene nonsense

Who the hell is Jonah Goldberg? Never mind, I don't really care.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:27pm PT
Would Gore or Kerry have built it? Gore no, Kerry probably yes. Gore certainly would have had a much more public exploration of the issue and any implementation.

Actually I agree with this. Gore would not have started a war in Iraq nor Afghanistan. He truly IS different than the Company Men. Oh well, one thing we can probably agree on is BushCo DID steal the election, out and out stole it.

DMT
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
you dont think there are worse things the us could have done with its money than destroy iraq and afganistan?


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
^^^ Thinking hard, realistically?

Nope. I don't. We could not have spent that borrowed money more poorly. I did try to tell people. It wasn't a popular pov, post-911. Lemme tell you.

DMT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
For TGT and Dave.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_analysis

Traffic analysis

Traffic analysis is the process of intercepting and examining messages in order to deduce information from patterns in communication. It can be performed even when the messages are encrypted and cannot be decrypted. In general, the greater the number of messages observed, or even intercepted and stored, the more can be inferred from the traffic. Traffic analysis can be performed in the context of military intelligence or counter-intelligence, and is a concern in computer security.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
So it has a name.

You may as well post the definition for astrology.

dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
Some serious sh*t is going on if he left a sweetie that that behind.

But life goes on. Perhaps the girlfriend will go to Yosemite and take up rock climbing? And needs some instruction...




Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Healyje,

A man-portable nuke can't just sit on a shelf for a period of time, and then be expected to go "bang" when the pin's pulled. If they're going to work, they require frequent and complicated maintanence, beyond the capacity of most governments - let alone a bunch of illiterate, Koran thumping cavemen.

These aren't AK's.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Based on this article, it looks like mainly Democrats in Congress were the ones who questioned the surveillance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-edward-snowdens-nsa-leaks-are-the-backlash-of-too-much-secrecy/2013/06/10/eddb4462-d215-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?wprss=rss_dana-milbank

The Justice Department and the DNI promised a new effort to declassify opinions issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court; Justice official Lisa Monaco, now Obama’s counterterrorism director, said all significant FISA rulings would be reviewed for declassification. But no new opinions were declassified under the initiative.

The House last year turned back attempts to require public reports on the general outlines of the government’s surveillance programs. The various disclosure proposals, offered by Democratic Reps. Bobby Scott (Va.), Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.) and Sheila Jackson Lee (Tex.), were defeated by the Judiciary Committee.

In the Senate, amendments to provide modest disclosures and declassifications, offered by Wyden and fellow Democratic Sens. Jeff Merkley (Ore.) and Mark Udall (Colo.) during the FISA renewal in December, were all defeated.

The FISA court itself colluded in the secrecy. After senators asked the court to provide declassified summaries of its decisions, the chief FISA judge, Reggie B. Walton, responded with a letter on March 27 citing “serious obstacles” to the request.

“It was a shoddy performance all around,” Aftergood said Monday. “The pervasive secrecy on this topic created an information vacuum. If congressional oversight was not going to fill it in, it turned out leaks would. That’s not the optimal solution.”

----


Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked Clapper [ director of national intelligence ] at a Senate hearing in March, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

“No, sir,” Clapper testified.

“It does not?” Wyden pressed.

“Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.”

We now know that Clapper was not telling the truth. The National Security Agency is quite wittingly collecting phone records of millions of Americans, and much more.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
I can't see how anyone would say the Clapper did not outright lie.

They ought to have him back before the committee in contempt of perjury charges
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
Holy Data Collection, Batman !!



Curt
Hankster

Social climber
Golden, CO
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
Perhaps the girlfriend will go to Yosemite and take up rock climbing? And needs some instruction...

BOOM!! Perhaps?!!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
For TGT and Dave.

Don't need a lecture on traffic analysis, I've been following its successes since the beginning and it's impressively effective.

There's no problem with using it for international communications as far as I'm concerned.

But here's the big rub when used domestically;

No government has ever refrained from abusing the power that it has been granted! That's what the Constitution is there to prevent. It's a limiting, not an empowering document, a characteristic that Obama has publicly complained about on several occasions.

What's to stop the administrative state from using it to say analyze the campaign traffic of the other party or grass roots political movements.

What if say Johnson had had it to crush the anti war movement, or a J. Edgar to pull the strings of every politician he encountered. (he did a good enough job without it)Or Clinton to punish the anti abortion movement.

There's a reason the fourth amendment is there and if we throw away our political freedom, the muzzies have won.

Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
Here's a conjecture about one use the metadata will be put to. It includes the source and destination phone of each call. A truly enormous, 300 million by 300 million node matrix will be constructed. If phone i sends to phone j then node (i,j) will be set to 1, otherwise 0. These are sometimes called connectivity or topology matrices. There are many theorems and algorithms associated with these. Djikstra has an algorithm for determing the shortest path between any two nodes.

This matrix will clearly be mostly zeros. There may be theories as to what a terrorist subnetwork will look like within this giant matrix.

Dont't infer from this that I support this data harvesting. I am strongly opposed.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
You have to connect a helluva lot of dots between a database with everyone's phone records and nuke being smuggled into the country.

You don't have to connect hardly any dots at all once you come to the conclusion whomever might attempt such an attack will likely have a digital footprint - and clearly BushCo came to that exact conclusion - and are building out for 100% coverage of domestic and US-foreign calls. Now that's not my (or Marine Corps Lt. General Paul K. Van Riper's) conclusion, but it was BuchCo's or we wouldn't be arguing the point now.

[ Jonah Goldberg is 'intellectual jujitsu' author of one of the new right's pillars of modern conservative 'thought': Liberal Fascism (his mother is Lucianne Goldberg, who 'advised' Linda Trip in the Lewinsky scandal) ]
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
Bush and his Republican Congress enacted it, funneled billions of tax payer dollars into it, and Only Congress can dissolve it, Obama can't do anything but use it or expose it.

Only a Democratically controlled Congress will repeal it, so until then complain and whine about it all you want, it's not going away until the republicans are toast, which will not be soon enough.

Except for the rigged elections and congressional districts may keep them around another election cycle or 2, and don't forget about all the Big dollars supporting these Conservative programs, they will lobby to keep them going, which means more republicans getting on board for bribe money.

Make sure to Blame yourself if you voted for any Republican congress people.
I blame TGT, and all the rest of you whiners that can't tell the difference
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:48pm PT
Just the amount of phone calls going on in a single city block are too many for anyone to listen to.

To think that anyone cares about what anyone has to say is ludicrous, but the Gov. wire taping is unconstitutional, and wrong, that's why they hired private companies to do it, which is actually worse.
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:56pm PT
Unfortunately, I have to cross post from the other political thread addressing this same issue, in case you didn't catch what this is about.

The Privatization of our Government by the Republicans and Bush cronies.
The very thing that should never be privatized, prisons, health care, the military, and national security have already been privatized at extra cost, huge salaries for the top, and are made unaccountable to the public.



Private Contractors Are In Charge Of National Security And They’re In It For The Profits

Author: Deborah Montesano

One of the loudest alarms set off by the National Security Agency leaks, at the hands of whistleblower Edward Snowden, was well articulated by Danielle Brian, executive director of a nonprofit group called the Project on Government Oversight. She told the New York Times:

The national security apparatus has been more and more privatized and turned over to contractors. This is something the public is largely unaware of, how more than a million private contractors are cleared to handle highly sensitive matters.


Ms. Brian added that even the nation’s security clearances are often taken care of by private contractors. Snowden’s employer, Booz Allen Hamilton, is just one of many that provide services to the national security apparatus, but they have 25,000 employees, nearly half of whom have top secret security clearances. The company received 98% of its income in the last fiscal year from the government.

Booz Allen’s top officials have close connections with both this administration and that of George W. Bush. Bush’s chief intelligence official, John M. McConnell, currently holds a position with Booz Allen.

As of October 1, 2012, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence reported that the number of people with security clearances was over 4.9 million, with about 1.4 million of them being ‘top security’ clearances. That’s a staggering number. As the number of clearances rise, so do the risks. One of Snowden’s main points was that there are too many people like him–a low-level systems technician–who have access to extremely sensitive information with the potential for abuse. James Fallows of The Atlantic put it well when, in defending Snowden’s actions, he wrote:


Among the strongest arguments against a surveillance state is that it depends on the subjective judgment of its millions of employees (a) to be applied without over-reach or abuse, or (b) to exist at all. One 29-year-old has just demonstrated the second point. Edward Snowden didn’t like the way the system worked, and so he has effectively blown it up. The bigger problem may be with the first point, option (a) — people who think there should be more intrusiveness or prying. The Founders’ fundamental concern, often distilled as ‘If men were angels…,’ was to avoid giving anyone powers that, in the wrong hands, could be abused. The surveillance state is giving too many people too much power — either to destroy its workings, as Snowden has tried to do, or to abuse and extend them.

Many current and past intelligence officials are questioning the system of farming out national security to private companies, a dialog that Snowden hoped for. Stewart Baker, formerly with both the NSA and the Department of Homeland Security, said:


We do need to take another, closer look at how we control information and how good we are at identifying what people are doing with that information.

According to the news site Quartz, the director of the Federation of America Scientists’ Project on Government Secrecy, Steven Aftergood, wants to know how Snowden had access to the most sensitive of documents, “a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court order and a presidential directive ordering up an overseas target list for cyber-attacks.” He told Quartz:


We’re really waiting to learn more of the facts of this case. How was he vetted? Was his access typical or was it the Hawaii [where Snowden lived] version of standard security procedures?

If someone in Snowden’s position could access that kind of information, what do the other 1.4 million people with top secret security clearances have access to? How many people out of that 1.4 million might be unscrupulous enough to take advantage of the information they come across–whether at the highest levels or the lowest?

In his brilliant article “Why Privacy Matters Even If You have ‘Nothing To Hide’ “, author Daniel J. Solove quotes Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:


Everyone is guilty of something or has something to conceal. All one has to do is look hard enough to find what it is.

What we don’t want others to know is all in our records somewhere–our phone calls, our bank accounts, our emails, our health records. Don’t we all need to be worried about the alarm bells Edward Snowden has rung?


Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/06/11/what-you-need-to-know-about-whistleblowing-and-the-privatization-of-national-security/#ixzz2VxwQ1X50
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:03pm PT
I have no doubt at all that, should they be asked (and I'm sure they will be), SCOTUS justices will rule it's entirely legal to harvest call metadata under the Patriot Act's business records provision. That's why it was written the way that it was - transcripts of your calls? No. Telco metadata records (their business records) about your calls? Sure, no problem under the business records provision.

I understand it 'feels' wrong, illegal, and unconstitutional, but I very highly doubt that what with John Yoo having been involved with crafting it and especially since half the intent of the damn bill was to provide legal cover for this surveillance (I consider Yoo to be a real Mengele of the legal profession):

From a Frontline interview with John Yoo on 1/10/2007:

Frontline: And gathering intelligence then means gathering intelligence at home as well as abroad.

Yoo: I think that's right. Again, if you're going to gather intelligence and follow members of Al Qaeda outside the United States, you don't want to make the United States some kind of safe haven where once they cross the borders into our country it actually becomes harder to find them and track them down. That would be perverse; exactly the reverse kind of powers that you want our government to have when it's fighting especially this kind of enemy, which tries to infiltrate our borders and launch surprise attacks.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:07pm PT
You are so full of sh#t Dr. F. The Dems had control of the House and the Senate for almost 2 years after Obama was elected.

Proof that Obama knows it is illegal and more promises he never intended to keep.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
Bit of a side topic... sorry for posting the lengthy full text, but otherwise you have to subscribe:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group?page=full

Wednesday,   June 12,   2013

Inside the NSA's Ultra-Secret China Hacking Group

Deep within the National Security Agency, an elite, rarely discussed team of hackers and spies is targeting America's enemies abroad.

BY MATTHEW M. AID | JUNE 10, 2013

This weekend, U.S. President Barack Obama sat down for a series of meetings with China's newly appointed leader, Xi Jinping. We know that the two leaders spoke at length about the topic du jour -- cyber-espionage -- a subject that has long frustrated officials in Washington and is now front and center with the revelations of sweeping U.S. data mining. The media has focused at length on China's aggressive attempts to electronically steal U.S. military and commercial secrets, but Xi pushed back at the "shirt-sleeves" summit, noting that China, too, was the recipient of cyber-espionage. But what Obama probably neglected to mention is that he has his own hacker army, and it has burrowed its way deep, deep into China's networks.

When the agenda for the meeting at the Sunnylands estate outside Palm Springs, California, was agreed to several months ago, both parties agreed that it would be a nice opportunity for President Xi, who assumed his post in March, to discuss a wide range of security and economic issues of concern to both countries. According to diplomatic sources, the issue of cybersecurity was not one of the key topics to be discussed at the summit. Sino-American economic relations, climate change, and the growing threat posed by North Korea were supposed to dominate the discussions.
Then, two weeks ago, White House officials leaked to the press that Obama intended to raise privately with Xi the highly contentious issue of China's widespread use of computer hacking to steal U.S. government, military, and commercial secrets. According to a Chinese diplomat in Washington who spoke in confidence, Beijing was furious about the sudden elevation of cybersecurity and Chinese espionage on the meeting's agenda. According to a diplomatic source in Washington, the Chinese government was even angrier that the White House leaked the new agenda item to the press before Washington bothered to tell Beijing about it.

So the Chinese began to hit back. Senior Chinese officials have publicly accused the U.S. government of hypocrisy and have alleged that Washington is also actively engaged in cyber-espionage. When the latest allegation of Chinese cyber-espionage was leveled in late May in a front-page Washington Post article, which alleged that hackers employed by the Chinese military had stolen the blueprints of over three dozen American weapons systems, the Chinese government's top Internet official, Huang Chengqing, shot back that Beijing possessed "mountains of data" showing that the United States has engaged in widespread hacking designed to steal Chinese government secrets. This weekend's revelations about the National Security Agency's PRISM and Verizon metadata collection from a 29-year-old former CIA undercover operative named Edward J. Snowden, who is now living in Hong Kong, only add fuel to Beijing's position.

But Washington never publicly responded to Huang's allegation, and nobody in the U.S. media seems to have bothered to ask the White House if there is a modicum of truth to the Chinese charges.

It turns out that the Chinese government's allegations are essentially correct. According to a number of confidential sources, a highly secretive unit of the National Security Agency (NSA), the U.S. government's huge electronic eavesdropping organization, called the Office of Tailored Access Operations, or TAO, has successfully penetrated Chinese computer and telecommunications systems for almost 15 years, generating some of the best and most reliable intelligence information about what is going on inside the People's Republic of China.

Hidden away inside the massive NSA headquarters complex at Fort Meade, Maryland, in a large suite of offices segregated from the rest of the agency, TAO is a mystery to many NSA employees. Relatively few NSA officials have complete access to information about TAO because of the extraordinary sensitivity of its operations, and it requires a special security clearance to gain access to the unit's work spaces inside the NSA operations complex. The door leading to its ultramodern operations center is protected by armed guards, an imposing steel door that can only be entered by entering the correct six-digit code into a keypad, and a retinal scanner to ensure that only those individuals specially cleared for access get through the door.

According to former NSA officials interviewed for this article, TAO's mission is simple. It collects intelligence information on foreign targets by surreptitiously hacking into their computers and telecommunications systems, cracking passwords, compromising the computer security systems protecting the targeted computer, stealing the data stored on computer hard drives, and then copying all the messages and data traffic passing within the targeted email and text-messaging systems. The technical term of art used by NSA to describe these operations is computer network exploitation (CNE).

TAO is also responsible for developing the information that would allow the United States to destroy or damage foreign computer and telecommunications systems with a cyberattack if so directed by the president. The organization responsible for conducting such a cyberattack is U.S. Cyber Command (Cybercom), whose headquarters is located at Fort Meade and whose chief is the director of the NSA, Gen. Keith Alexander.

Commanded since April of this year by Robert Joyce, who formerly was the deputy director of the NSA's Information Assurance Directorate (responsible for protecting the U.S. government's communications and computer systems), TAO, sources say, is now the largest and arguably the most important component of the NSA's huge Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) Directorate, consisting of over 1,000 military and civilian computer hackers, intelligence analysts, targeting specialists, computer hardware and software designers, and electrical engineers.

The sanctum sanctorum of TAO is its ultramodern operations center at Fort Meade called the Remote Operations Center (ROC), which is where the unit's 600 or so military and civilian computer hackers (they themselves CNE operators) work in rotating shifts 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
These operators spend their days (or nights) searching the ether for computers systems and supporting telecommunications networks being utilized by, for example, foreign terrorists to pass messages to their members or sympathizers. Once these computers have been identified and located, the computer hackers working in the ROC break into the targeted computer systems electronically using special software designed by TAO's own corps of software designers and engineers specifically for this purpose, download the contents of the computers' hard drives, and place software implants or other devices called "buggies" inside the computers' operating systems, which allows TAO intercept operators at Fort Meade to continuously monitor the email and/or text-messaging traffic coming in and out of the computers or hand-held devices.

TAO's work would not be possible without the team of gifted computer scientists and software engineers belonging to the Data Network Technologies Branch, who develop the sophisticated computer software that allows the unit's operators to perform their intelligence collection mission. A separate unit within TAO called the Telecommunications Network Technologies Branch (TNT) develops the techniques that allow TAO's hackers to covertly gain access to targeted computer systems and telecommunications networks without being detected. Meanwhile, TAO's Mission Infrastructure Technologies Branch develops and builds the sensitive computer and telecommunications monitoring hardware and support infrastructure that keeps the effort up and running.

TAO even has its own small clandestine intelligence-gathering unit called the Access Technologies Operations Branch, which includes personnel seconded by the CIA and the FBI, who perform what are described as "off-net operations," which is a polite way of saying that they arrange for CIA agents to surreptitiously plant eavesdropping devices on computers and/or telecommunications systems overseas so that TAO's hackers can remotely access them from Fort Meade.

It is important to note that TAO is not supposed to work against domestic targets in the United States or its possessions. This is the responsibility of the FBI, which is the sole U.S. intelligence agency chartered for domestic telecommunications surveillance. But in light of information about wider NSA snooping, one has to prudently be concerned about whether TAO is able to perform its mission of collecting foreign intelligence without accessing communications originating in or transiting through the United States.

Since its creation in 1997, TAO has garnered a reputation for producing some of the best intelligence available to the U.S. intelligence community not only about China, but also on foreign terrorist groups, espionage activities being conducted against the United States by foreign governments, ballistic missile and weapons of mass destruction developments around the globe, and the latest political, military, and economic developments around the globe.

According to a former NSA official, by 2007 TAO's 600 intercept operators were secretly tapping into thousands of foreign computer systems and accessing password-protected computer hard drives and emails of targets around the world. As detailed in my 2009 history of NSA, The Secret Sentry, this highly classified intercept program, known at the time as Stumpcursor, proved to be critically important during the U.S. Army's 2007 "surge" in Iraq, where it was credited with single-handedly identifying and locating over 100 Iraqi and al Qaeda insurgent cells in and around Baghdad. That same year, sources report that TAO was given an award for producing particularly important intelligence information about whether Iran was trying to build an atomic bomb.

By the time Obama became president of the United States in January 2009, TAO had become something akin to the wunderkind of the U.S. intelligence community. "It's become an industry unto itself," a former NSA official said of TAO at the time. "They go places and get things that nobody else in the IC [intelligence community] can."

Given the nature and extraordinary political sensitivity of its work, it will come as no surprise that TAO has always been, and remains, extraordinarily publicity shy. Everything about TAO is classified top secret codeword, even within the hypersecretive NSA. Its name has appeared in print only a few times over the past decade, and the handful of reporters who have dared inquire about it have been politely but very firmly warned by senior U.S. intelligence officials not to describe its work for fear that it might compromise its ongoing efforts. According to a senior U.S. defense official who is familiar with TAO's work, "The agency believes that the less people know about them [TAO] the better."

The word among NSA officials is that if you want to get promoted or recognized, get a transfer to TAO as soon as you can. The current head of the NSA's SIGINT Directorate, Teresa Shea, 54, got her current job in large part because of the work she did as chief of TAO in the years after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when the unit earned plaudits for its ability to collect extremely hard-to-come-by information during the latter part of George W. Bush's administration. We do not know what the information was, but sources suggest that it must have been pretty important to propel Shea to her position today. But according to a recently retired NSA official, TAO "is the place to be right now."

There's no question that TAO has continued to grow in size and importance since Obama took office in 2009, which is indicative of its outsized role. In recent years, TAO's collection operations have expanded from Fort Meade to some of the agency's most important listening posts in the United States. There are now mini-TAO units operating at the huge NSA SIGINT intercept and processing centers at NSA Hawaii at Wahiawa on the island of Oahu; NSA Georgia at Fort Gordon, Georgia; and NSA Texas at the Medina Annex outside San Antonio, Texas; and within the huge NSA listening post at Buckley Air Force Base outside Denver.

The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities. The "mountains of data" statement by China's top Internet official, Huang Chengqing, is clearly an implied threat by Beijing to release this data. Thus it is unlikely that President Obama pressed President Xi too hard at the Sunnydale summit on the question of China's cyber-espionage activities. As any high-stakes poker player knows, you can only press your luck so far when the guy on the other side of the table knows what cards you have in your hand.

Matthew M. Aid is the author of Intel Wars: The Secret History of the Fight Against Terror and The Secret Sentry: The Untold History of the National Security Agency, and is co-editor with Cees Wiebes of Secrets of Signals Intelligence During the Cold War and Beyond.

FOREIGN POLICY is published by the FP Group, a division of The Washington Post Company 
All contents ©2013 The Foreign Policy Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
MisterE

Social climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:27pm PT
War is at Home - you knew it was inevitable.

Turnkey Tyranny is so hot right now.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
Are you Ungoogleable? It is the newest cool.
Found the below from an unknown blogger with rather scary sop.


I'll let you all in on a little secret that makes defeating Google
(and everyone else) easy.

Lie.

To everyone.

The phone company, the utility company, your landlord, the bank,
everyone. Do it consistently. Give each one of these data tracking
nitwits a different name, address, contact phone (none of them need be
real, except perhaps for the bank, if you use one, have that mail sent to
you out of state). Make ups SSN for those the "demand" it. Pay your
deposits and forget about it. Lie to the DMV about where you live when
you get your license (if you bother with one, I don't). Same goes with
your insurance company. I don't plan on filing a claim anyway - why
should I? So I can pay a higher premium? (yes, I have insurance, it's
to protect the other guy, not me).


Lie to your neighbors (you may need to move). Lie to your "friends". If
they're really your friends, they won't care what your real name is
anyway.
\

Unpublished phone number? That only puts your name on a list. If you
don't want hassling phone calls, don't give out your phone number. Lie
when forced to reveal what is not in your best interest.


Lying needs to become a part of your defense. Your government lies to you
constantly, about everything. We are under no moral or ethical
obligations to cooperate with them on any level.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
Turnkey Tyranny is so hot right now.

Lots of jobs, that's for sure, though not really in climbing hot spots:

http://www.clearancejobs.com/careers/6654/booz-allen-hamilton-careers
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:47am PT
Hong Kong's overlords in Beijing are never going to let Hong Kong extradite Snowden to the U.S.

Wrong - Hong Kong/China have an extradition treaty with the USA
He didn't plan it out really well or at all.
But what do you expect from a high school drop computer-geek with a sliver like awarness of how the world works.

The girlfriend is at least a stripper and at worst a whore.
A love relationship that is not the makings for a more stable mind for our narcissistic and confused hero.

Best analogy I have heard is that this guy is the equivalent of a food service employee, on an airliner, getting worked up cause he has the ability to take down the plane in mid-flight.

The US probably already has the nitwit in custody.

But carry on - i love watching right-wing f*#ktards getting worked up about the things they have been voting for for the last 12 years!!
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:56am PT
http://world.time.com/2013/06/13/beijing-reacts-to-snowden-claims-u-s-hacked-hundreds-of-chinese-targets/

Treason for sure now!
But heh - it's another fake scandal for the African American President.
lol
Even a love of treason is not below a Teabagger.


Some facts on Snowdowns' delusions.
Not that they matter to this conversation.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865581558/Experts-dispute-NSA-leakers-claim-about-wiretapping.html

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:57am PT
war has always targeted the homefront first and foremost

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:04am PT
In a letter to Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. and FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III, Google asked for permission to disclose at least the number of surveillance requests it had received and some details about their scope.

"Google's numbers would clearly show that our compliance with these requests falls far short of the claims being made," wrote David Drummond, Google's chief legal officer. "Google has nothing to hide."

Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook chief executive, told shareholders at the company's first annual meeting that Facebook does not work directly with the NSA or give the government direct access to its systems, as media reports alleged.

"No one has ever approached us to do anything like that," Zuckerberg said.

Ted Ullyot, general counsel at Facebook, urged the government to modify the nondisclosure agreements the company is required to sign. "We would welcome the opportunity … to share with those who use Facebook around the world a complete picture of the government requests we receive, and how we respond."
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:13am PT
as if they didnt have the oppertunity to share the information yesterday...
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:49am PT
Why in the world should anyone trust what Verizon or Facebook or Google says? As if these major players in the corporate state hold their consumers' privacy as sacrosanct ... they value their market share, profits, and crisis management. If these corporations are to be trusted why didn't they voluntarily and explicitly disclose this info to their customers long ago and/or once confronted with the government's demands for the data immediately cease or suspend all operations instead of betraying their customers' privacy?

Furthermore, I recall years back when it was understood that the USA government was adopting highly invasive investigating tactics on individuals suspected of 'terrorism’ under the Patriot Act, the organizations and individuals who were approached to provide information or testimony were compelled under threat of law to total secrecy regarding the investigation and information gathering.

The legal commentary I've read about the extradition policy regarding Beijing and Mainland China is that it entails a grey zone, which plays well for Snowden.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 07:11am PT
Why in the world should anyone trust what Verizon or Facebook or Google says?

Those pieces of paper don't say sh#t. Now the folks who run those companies?

They're part of an NSA spyring dedicated to spying on Americans. Let them quibble as to HOW MUCH spying they did, but spies they are. I mean, that's what Google is, its what that company does... quibble as to commercial vs. government, the apparatus of google is built to spy on people, simple as that, built from the ground up for that specific purpose, to sell the data. So they sold some to the government - this is a surprise?

And the whole worlds knows, especially George Smiley's People, you can never trust a spy. Ever. Spies don't trust spies, why would you?

DMT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:09am PT
This shows what an a$$clown Freidman has become:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a-whistle.html?src=me&ref=general

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:14am PT
snowden sold out to CHINA. drone his butt.. Drone him hard and fast. NO PATRIOT of the USA would ever sell out to CHINA.. Sorry but thats NOT the way to do it. Hes NOT helping anyone here is he. He helped himself and should be helped to the spirit world.
WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:18am PT
You would be surprised what is really going on.

Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.

You are all running blind as bats on this whole fiasco.

But that's nothing new at all here .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:24am PT
Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.


Now that we are not at war? Since when?
Check out this link.
http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx

This is no comment on the NSA at all. Merely a comment on your assertion that we're not at war anymore.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:26am PT
The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

DMT
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:29am PT
Ronster,

Snowden and m anning are true patriots, and history will remember them as such. You really think foudning fathers wanted the gov't up your a$$?

Snowden is in China for free-speech asylum from the US. You can't see the sad irony in this?!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:36am PT
I love it when people say what the founding fathers would have done if they
lived today. I wish I could afford a crystal ball.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:57am PT
The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

DMT

Exactly, this "We are at war forever" BS is just an excuse to expand power and do whatever they want.

And it turns out Google IS evil. If you have Chrome or some google software on your computer, and try to block it from sending out information on you, the little app keeps reinstalling it in other places on your computer to get around the restrictions, just like malware. They suck.

Peace

karl
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:05am PT
Patrick,, no i dont want the gubbmint up my hiney.. That is 100% for sure.

But NO PATRIOT runs to the competition and gives them the goods. Sorry but that is fakkt.

I was a patriot to my Native Americans friends once and it cost me my job, career and ended up with things like "must arrest on sight" orders by the Nev Highway Patrol and other state LEO agencies. I know fairly well the prices paid for fighting the "system".

There are Patriots and then there are SELL OUTS. manning, and snowden are both in the latter category.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:39am PT
if there were any real patirots
they would have burned washington 50 years ago.

sorry, you guys today are just playing

like girls with harley davidson keychains


beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:45am PT
It's all Mimi's fault, she works for the NSA and just wants to check out my hot action now that she's all button down with that knuckle dragger Stevie Whatshisname.
beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:48am PT
Oh and here's a time line for all the folks that haven't been paying attention.

Timeline of NSA Domestic Spying


michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:50am PT
If Snowden is a whistleblower trying to protect innocent Americans, why is he also telling everyone that the US is spying on China? Is that to protect Americans? Can someone explain how using your security clearance to reveal our government's (alleged) spying activities against another country (a country which clearly hacks into our computers on a daily basis) is protecting innocent Americans? Can it really be argued that it is coincidence that he reveals this information about China while he is hiding in Hong Kong and asking the Chinese and Hong Kong governments to NOT extradite him. Is this really any different than outright treason by someone who gives classified information to a foreign country and then asks that country for protection? What would people say if Snowden also told Iran about the spying we are doing on them, and then bought a one-way ticket to Tehran? Would people still be calling him a hero?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 10:54am PT
What is Iran the boogeyman? Of COURSE the US is spying on Iran and China, hacking away at their systems even as they try to hack away at ours.

Try to focus. He is praised for exposing NSA spying on AMERICAN citizens, IN America. The fact he pointed out the US is spying on China (or Iran ) is the biggest no-duh! in history.

The fact he ran to China, however, does suggest treason, agreed.

DMT
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:34am PT
he just went to the public defenders office...
Bharata

Mountain climber
Pune
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:43am PT
Why did He choose management style to change our national mind
from trusting the government to seeing them as real and present danger?

Many feel ill that he has betrayed our trust this way.


Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:45am PT
Why did He choose management style

What do you mean by 'management style', please? I'm curious.

Cheers
DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Some of the reasons why the story was told: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile

"For an American, the traditional home for the kind of story Snowden was planning to reveal would have been the New York Times. But during extensive interviews last week with a Guardian team, he recalled how dismayed he had been to discover the Times had a great scoop in election year 2004 – that the Bush administration, post 9/11, allowed the NSA to snoop on US citizens without warrants – but had sat on it for a year before publishing.

Snowden said this was a turning point for him, confirming his belief that traditional media outlets could not be trusted. He looked around for alternative journalists, those who were both anti-establishment and at home with blogging and other social media. The member of this generation that he most trusted was the Guardian commentator Glenn Greenwald. "

"In what were to be the last words of the interview, he (Snowden) quoted Benjamin Franklin: "Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.""
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:05pm PT
It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
it sounds to me like their saving all of it but only looking at the meta data in order to create models which will allow them in the future to dig into the recordings when need be

officially

of course the technicians are listening to all that they can

and their bosses are trying to figure out how to sell it in pieces
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
What did Woodward and Bernstien do? Run to CHINA ?? Nope...
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
there was also a working judicary system as well as a working free press at the time ron

neither is the case today
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
the finked on the president Norton..They risked their hides imo...



and good point rsin...
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
Regardless, a traitor is someone that steals intel then SELLS it to the competition.

manning and this latest jerk did exactly that. They didnt just volunteer it up for the good of man,, noooo they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder. And didnt give a rip who the bidders were. That can only be described as selfish in motive. Nothing redeeming about it, just plain ol espionage and selling the USA out.

Tell me in what way he has helped you or i by telling China exactly how we spy on them? We may not do the duck and cover drills at school anymore but do you think the cold war is actually and completely over? Its just changed primary players is all.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder

Ron, do you have a source for this? Can you show any evidence that this took place?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
Norton,

Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.

John
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
Snowden said this was a turning point for him, confirming his belief that traditional media outlets could not be trusted.

He's right, about that.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
Ncrock,, i was being slightly metaphorical. In fact he sold that stolen intel to China.. He ran right to them. He didnt run to Oprah, or Barbra Walters. And i DONT trust his judgement as to what is sensitive and possibly damaging to the USA. Should anyone here?

If he were your employee and you had just come up with a new climbing rope that could be made for ten bucks worth of materials - you wouldnt want that employee going to CHINA to give the technology to them would you? No you would want to keep that under lock and key so that YOU could make the money due to your efforts put out. I feel that way about our intelligence agencies when it comes to foreign dangers.

Has the gubbmint gone caarazay with the citizenry rights violations-- crap yeah ,, for decades now. BUT you DONT give our secrets away to the opposite side. And you TRY not to air your laundry on the world market.
Do i feel snowden has helped ME, not in the least.

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
here you will see one of your extremist conservatives spiritual mentor in factless belief mongering


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQVfQCpYocQ


and here is a quick clip of the folks who gather around these idiots and praise them... who you have to rub shoulders with if you talk like this ourdoors


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjl54v1irbs


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China........BUT you DONT give our secrets away to the opposite side.

Ron, I'm curious about why you think Snowden gave away secrets to China? I haven't seen anything in the press stating that. Sure he's saying the US has been hacking China, but that's not exactly a secret.

The link I pasted last night gives far more detail as to how the NSA is spying in China, and its published by the Washington Post, with info pre-Snowden. It states, "The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities."

All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."

That's a very broad statement, without much detail. That the NSA "hack(s) network backbones" should come as no surprise to anyone who pays attention to what the NSA is all about.

I would like to hear a lot more technical details from Snowden about NSA data collection within the US. That concerns me a lot more than what the NSA is doing in China.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
Ron's trolling,

Interesting how it's dropped off the news...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Worth a repeat:

the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
try sitting up abit straighter coz
its there if you can focus
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
Ron stated:
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China.. He ran right to them. He didnt run to Oprah, or Barbra Walters


Ron, are you making stuff up again?

you know, that old "if I can think it in my head, then it must be true" stuff?

there just is no reason to not go with what is known to be true, why make stuff up Ron?

people call you out constantly but you just keep rolling along, never ever learning from it

ok, let's do it again

show your source, Ron, prove it

show some links where YOU got this information that he SOLD intelligence to CHINA

why do you keeping doing this sh!t, Ron?
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
its his nature
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
If anything China GAVE HIM the intel. Lol.

DMT
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Ron's sources? Here they are...

Its the Gubmint, Damnit!
By: Ron Anderson
BSP
2012

Know-It-All From Moundhouse
By: Ron Anderson
Retarded Press
2008

My Sonar Says So
By: Ron Anderson
ImmaIdiot
2005

Sources? More Like Sauced
By: Ron Anderson
IG Fool
2003
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
so lemme get this straight,, you guys THINK hes getting NOTHING for telling China specifically how we spy on them... Ohhhhhwwwwwk.. Whos protecting him right now then? Al Gore?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
...for telling China specifically how we spy on them...

What are the "specifics" Ron, and how do you know this?

edit - links, etc. will be appreciated. not all of us are able to "channel" this information from the cosmos....
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:17pm PT
Yes many articles say he is telling them exaclty how we spy on China.. Now I must also mention this shyt stains hypocrisy by his words in an interview to the effect " there ARE countries in this world not afraid of the truth" while he sits in CHINA..CanT make this crap up.But Natl Lampoon should glom onto it quickly!...


edit: and google CHANGES by the hour on some of this stuff- watch it and see for yourselves. Just like it did during the Florida shooting of perp three of the Boston incident.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
Have been watching some interesting video interviews with former NSA technical director, William Binney. He was with the NSA for 36 years and resigned in 2001, when he decided the level of NSA monitoring within the USA was breaking the constitution. He also complained of billions of dollars (of our money) being spent on system after system, with little oversight.

From Apr. 12, 2012 in NYC - http://archive.org/details/LauraPoitrasPresentsASurveillanceTeach-inWithJacobAppelbaumBill

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out

http://www.whistleblower.org/program-areas/homeland-security-a-human-rights/surveillance/nsa-whistleblowers-bill-binney-a-j-kirk-wiebe
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
again im not condoning the spying on against the constitution. Just against the actions of traitors ..
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
articles??!?!?


your regurgitate bullshit editoral crap from vendors who have gone to court to defend their right to lie to their readership



christ,
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
Yeah, let's look for jihadis everywhere except where they are.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Profiling isnt PC TGT.. Its just the #1 proven technique of all time,, but NOT pc....
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
profiling doesnt work,
when we are conciderin any of the "reasons" are are offerent as good reason to allow it.

you cant profile odd occurance. which all these and terrorist turn out to be.

this system cant save us from terrorist to save its life.


it is however
good at protecting walmart from having to pay women fair wages


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.

Now this couldn't be more spot on...

Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.

No, I didn't say that. I said if you believe a terrorist nuke attack is likely to have a digital footprint then it's pretty hard to argue against the strategic radiation and communications monitoring decision taken by BushCo for our national defense going forward. Certainly not without proffering a viable alternative or justifying why none is required.

But as I keep saying, it is a different world and our digital toys are two-edge swords which can be used against us. They've certainly remade the face of asymmetric warfare and remoted-IED's are responsible for the majority of our losses, injuries, and long-term costs of the current wars. They do the same on the terrorist front (played a big role in the Mumbai attack for instance).

They're part of an NSA spy ring dedicated to spying on Americans.

Huh, on what f*#king planet is that? They are a commercial entity that has been compelled by the government - under the powers vested by the Patriot Act's business records provision - to comply with orders to allow access to their clickstream and analyses.

I mean, that's what Google is, its what that company does...quibble as to commercial vs. government, the apparatus of google is built to spy on people, simple as that, built from the ground up for that specific purpose, to sell the data. So they sold some to the government - this is a surprise?

No, that's not what google is. They do sell data to advertisers. they did not sell any data to the government. I expect a little more precision from someone who does what you do for a living.

Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.

Again, on what planet? Oh, that's right, planet Vedas where all the answers are carved in stone reliefs and pre-ordained.

Snowden sold out to CHINA.

Ron, dude, at this point I'm pretty sure one of the US cartel gangs has a low-dose LSD drip hooked up to your water supply. Man, if you keep reading one crank, nutjob blog and website after another you are going to be even more completely lost and drama-queened out then you already are. You're definitely getting crowned the reigning ST political Queen.

The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

This is also spot on and that's really been the case since Nixon and why the War Powers Resolution was enacted over Nixon's veto. The WPR wasn't the best response to those abuses and has caused no shortage of problems of it's own. I've laid out my own thoughts here on what 'war powers' the president should have and what would have to happen for the US to actually engage in any significant military conflict.

What is Iran the boogeyman? Of COURSE the US is spying on Iran and China, hacking away at their systems even as they try to hack away at ours.

This is another example of the Internet forever changing the face of societies and 'war'. There are national, extra-national, commercial, military, criminal, and individual entities engaged in digital piracy of any and all forms you can think of. Until we redesign computing and networking down to the chip level for secure and verifiable systems and messaging (more security at a high price) all nations, corporations, and individuals will be in a continual state of cyber warfare. Unlike the drug war, this one is very, very real.

The fact he ran to China, however, does suggest treason, agreed.

I'd think someone who's traveled as much as you would realize that, even after going back to the Chinese, Hong Kong is still a great place to make connections. I can't say I would have announced there, but this is another case of the Internet really shrinking the planet and options for someone in Snowden's position. I mean, even Lesotho, Lichtenstein and Tonga all have extradition treaties with the US. Jumping from HK to the Maldives would have been an option, but once in the Maldives you're pretty much not going anywhere else and are permanently in a goldfish bowl.

It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.

They are looking at the metadata without warrants under Patriot Act authorization. If they see a pattern in the data they don't like you can bet they issue a warrant for the associated content and I suspect those warrants cover large buckets of data, not thimblefuls.

the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing

That is not the case. It may feel that way in 'spirit', but that is not an accurate characterization of either the warranting or the oversight.

Regardless, a traitor is someone that steals intel then SELLS it to the competition. Manning and this latest jerk did exactly that. They didnt just volunteer it up for the good of man,, noooo they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder.

Ron. See above post and, please, get back on your meds - for the children if no one else.

All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."

The world's main fiber trunks are definitely all surveilled and, really, if you tap sea cable landing sites in Hawaii, NYC, LA, FL, Seattle, England and anywhere on the Africa One cable and you pretty much have it all.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
They're part of an NSA spy ring dedicated to spying on Americans.

Huh, on what f*#king planet is that? They are a commercial entity that has been compelled by the government - under the powers vested by the Patriot Act's business records provision - to comply with orders to allow access to their clickstream and analyses.

his is another example of the Internet forever changing the face of societies and 'war'. There are national, extra-national, commercial, military, criminal, and individual entities engaged in digital piracy

What part of 'part' do you fail to understand?

DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:02pm PT
They are not part of anyone's 'spy ring' except their own.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
If they took part in NSA spying then they are part of NSA spying, lol. Willingly or not. Google employees are complicit. They spy for a living regardless of their master-of-convenience.

DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
We'll have to agree to disagree on that characterization.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
So what does a nuclear terrorist's "digital footprint" look like?

Do they google "bomb in shipping container" over and over?

I'll bet the NSA doesn't know either.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
We'll have to agree to disagree on that characterization.

Cheers
DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
Google didn't know your porn preferences either, at first. It's part of the big data learning curve of the last 10-15 years. That uncertainty is also why communications monitoring is paired with expanding radiation monitoring coverage. The question isn't do they know everything or can in fact detect such an attack, but rather should they try. It's actually a pretty stark choice - there is no 'sort of try' when it comes to this sort of thing - it's either do or don't. And if the answer is don't, then that decision is not necessarily without serious consequences of its own.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
LOL



June 11, 2013

The Honorable Darrell Issa
Chairman, House Committee on Government Reform & Oversight
2157 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Chairman Issa:

Thank you for your ongoing efforts to investigate abuses of civil liberties by employees of the Internal Revenue Service.

These abuses seem to indicate a larger, higher pattern of ideologically-driven harassment of Americans which Congress has an obligation to fully investigate with every tool at our disposal.

Frankly I am disappointed by revelations Obama administration personnel have been less than forward about what they knew and when they knew it.

As you know, recent revelations show the National Security Agency has been keeping an “ongoing, daily” log of every domestic phone call in the United States.

I respectfully request your Committee subpoena the records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel.

If President Obama is collecting such information, he certainly would want us to use it. If he has nothing to hide he has nothing to be afraid of.

Warmest wishes,



STEVE STOCKMAN
Member of Congress
WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
The govts. manufactures terrorists.

The govts. supplies the terrorists with what they need to terrorize.

Then the govt. creates fear mongers like healyje to create the infrastructures to keep him safe from their own terrorists which they control.

Stooopid Americans can't for the life of them understand a simple thing.

Instead they buy all the garbage that's spoon fed to them daily ......
jghedge

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:47pm PT


Hahahaha, Issa's so incompetent as an investigative committee manager, he has people mailing him suggestions

He's the George Bush of congressional investigations
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
Yer too dense to recognize satire even when it slaps you upside the head.


Stockman requests subpoena of NSA’s White House, IRS phone logs
Jun 11, 2013
Press Release
‘If Obama has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,’ says Stockman

WASHINGTON – Congressman Steve Stockman (R-Texas 36) Tuesday asked the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee to subpoena all National Security Agency records of phone calls between employees of the White House and the Internal Revenue Service.

Stockman’s office hand delivered a letter Tuesday afternoon to the Committee’s office requesting a subpoena “of all records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel” collected under the NSA’s recently-revealed PRISM program.

“Obama assures the public he only collected this information to uncover wrongdoing and protect civil liberties. Clearly he would want us to use it to investigate this case, because otherwise he’d be lying,” said Stockman.

“If Obama has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,” said Stockman.

“This case must be investigated fully, given admitted wrongdoing by the IRS, its potentially criminal implications and revelations the White House has been less than honest about what they knew and when,” said Stockman. “Obama says the PRISM program is perfectly legal, so there should be no problem whatsoever in providing the information on White House and IRS phone calls.”

“The only possible scenario in which the administration refuses to comply would be if it would reveal unconstitutional or illegal behavior,” said Stockman.

Stockman’s office also electronically delivered the same letter to the Homeland Security Committee chaired by Rep. Michael McCaul. The text of the letter follows:
jghedge

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
"Yer too dense to recognize satire even when it slaps you upside the head."


Hahahaha, having a blubbering car thief in charge of House Oversight is satirical enough, trust me

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
Werner:

The govt manufactures terrorists.

The govt. supplies the terrorists with what they need to terrorize.

Whether we believe this or not regarding events of the last dozen years on US soil, there is no arguing against the fact that the USA has a core commitment and has been instrumental across the globe in perpetrating, aiding,and supporting terrorism, war, repression, tyrannical dictatorships, mass murder, assassination, death squad training, torture, economic warfare, and all other manner of behavior in order to control the interests of it's ruling class.

For example, one need only examine an FBI program like COINTELPRO to get a dose of how that repression and violence has already been directed towards USA citizens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

Are we going to believe that the entire population of the USA citizenry or various demographics thereof are entirely immune from the receiving end of such a nefarious ideology because of the existence of few sheets of parchment scratched out over 200 year ago?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
And Benghazi was about arming these pleasant folks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/11/report-syrian-rebels-executed-a-14-year-old-boy-for-insulting-islam/

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Ah, Werner, the place just wouldn't be the same without you.

All I can hope is that, as a member of an elite government action team, you're not out there manufacturing rescues
jghedge

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 07:18pm PT

"And Benghazi was about arming these pleasant folks"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/11/report-syrian-rebels-executed-a-14-year-old-boy-for-insulting-islam/


Hahahaha, Benghazi's in Libya

The usual wingnut geographical retardation
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
Benghazi was about destroying water and sewer infrastructure
and the clients such mayhem tosses into the future

nothing more
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/ancient-us-weapon-in-syria/

Then M40s somehow came into the hands of rebels in Libya and Syria. Suddenly, the 106mm – light, cheap, easily transportable, simple to operate, and packing a punch all out of proportion to its modest size — has emerged as a possible Great Asymmetric Weapon of the Day.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
we sure killed alot of vietmese, cambodian and laos civilian with those 106,s didnt we!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Daniel Ellsberg's point of view:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america

"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.

Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought over 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the US constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that unconstitutionally sweeping warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, almost totally deferential to executive requests. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp.""
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:34am PT
I found the following video to be extremely helpful in understanding both the importance of the NSA leak and the government's legal position.

This 25 minutes is very well worth the time:

Link: Edward Snowden and the NSA Leaks: A Debate With Chris Hedges & Law Scholar Geoffrey Stone

You might know Hedges, but Stone is a highly credentialed law professor and he certainly knows is stuff. He is able to define, without defending, the laws that come into play, as well as how civil liberties are involved. No matter what side of the fence you find yourself on, you will learn something here.

One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

    Martin Luther King
Letter from Brimingham Jail
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:40am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/14/cbs-news-confirms-multiple-breaches-of-sharyl-attkissons-computer/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:04am PT
Here's a nice summary, from Amy Goodman, of what Snowden did:

Snowden’s historic leak revealed what he calls an “architecture of oppression”—a series of top-secret surveillance programs that go far beyond what has been publicly known to date. The first was an order from the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court requesting a division of the phone giant Verizon to hand over “all call detail records” for calls from the U.S. to locations abroad, or all calls within the U.S., including local calls. In other words, metadata for every phone call that Verizon Business Network Services processed was to be delivered to the NSA on a daily basis. Another document was a slide presentation revealing a program dubbed “PRISM,” which allegedly empowers NSA snoops access to all the private data stored by Internet giants like Microsoft, AOL, Skype, Google, Apple and Facebook, including email, video chats, photos, files transfers and more.

Snowden released Presidential Policy Directive 20—a top-secret memo from President Barack Obama directing U.S. intelligence agencies to draw up a list of targets for U.S. cyberattacks. Finally came proof of the program called “Boundless Informant,” which creates a global “heat map” detailing the source countries of the 97 billion intercepted electronic records collected by the NSA in the month of March 2013. Among the top targets were Iran, Pakistan, Egypt and Jordan. The leaked map color-codes countries: red for “hot,” then yellow and green. Last March, the U.S. was yellow, providing the NSA with close to 2.9 billion intercepts.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:32am PT
its centuries old knowledge
but obvious bear repeating

the reasons we always knew better than to allow ANY program which involved the creation of these data troves

was the honest understanding that they are honeypots which attract flies

that the people we employ to manage them will sell access to them on the side all day every day

causing far worse harm than any we prevent via the program which needed its creation in the first place



this was well understood long before electricity showed up

the proponents of this dont want to save us from anything. they want to reap the profits on the side which TRYING in this manner allows them to exploit
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:24am PT
rSin - well said, but you cannot be the rSin because rSin is consistently
clueless.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:47am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inR02pEesCQ
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:54am PT
Maybe snowden can partner up with randisi..birds of a feather it seems...
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:58am PT
youd think serial offenders would find the light more often
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 14, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
Now they are saying this dude is possibly a spy for China.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/annals-of-the-security-state-more-airplane-stories/276018/
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jun 14, 2013 - 05:06pm PT
Republicans are the Biggest Hypocrites the Universe has ever known!!

You must watch this, to see the switch from defender of the NSA warrantless wiretapping on everyone, to the current watered down NSA legal procedures

Sean Hannity On NSA Surveillance, Then And Now


http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/06/12/sean-hannity-on-nsa-surveillance-then-and-now/194437
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
a spy for china would have kept his mouth shut
Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal
Jun 14, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
The China connection is starting to make sense
not a Chinese spy, but selling intel to China,
for protection by the Chinese, plus big money
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 14, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
Highly doubtful.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

London, 1772.

I have been asked by my superiors to give a brief demonstration of the surprising effectiveness of even the simplest techniques of the new-fangled Social Networke Analysis in the pursuit of those who would seek to undermine the liberty enjoyed by His Majesty’s subjects. This is in connection with the discussion of the role of “metadata” in certain recent events and the assurances of various respectable parties that the government was merely “sifting through this so-called metadata” and that the “information acquired does not include the content of any communications”. I will show how we can use this “metadata” to find key persons involved in terrorist groups operating within the Colonies at the present time. I shall also endeavour to show how these methods work in what might be called a relational manner.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
bingo!

cept dont think america getting the protected. think walmart and general dynamics and lockeyd martin. the carlyle group
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
Get the feeling the president has lost his grip on the rudder of government?

Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws without a care would be your first indication he isn't at the helm.

But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.
jghedge

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:08pm PT


"Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws..."


But ask your typical wingnut what laws he's broken, or what crimes have been committed, and you get...



......crickets.......


rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
an mention of obama in this is pure racism which only funnels support towards villian who cheer this stuff in private and would have accelerated its abuses

this sh#t goes back to the f*#ks we finish off after the church hearings painted them obvious
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:19pm PT



Dr. F.

Big Wall climber
SoCal

Jun 14, 2013 - 05:14pm PT
The China connection is starting to make sense
not a Chinese spy, but selling intel to China,
for protection by the Chinese, plus big money





whut?? yu- yu- you CANT think he actually got paid for any of this ? BWAAAAHAHAHAHAhaaaaaaaaa Im being sarcastic here doc,, as i was BLASTED just yesterday by many here to "prove" hes been paid or "sold" the intel. OF COURSE HE DID! ;=)
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:23pm PT
you have to be a serious weenie to be concerned about this logistically

all our "enemies" knew already



the only damage that was done was informing the public

that what these pussy generals are crying about
the people pay the bill discovering what theyre money bought


google crybaby
army generals own the first page
jghedge

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:24pm PT


"as i was BLASTED just yesterday by many here to "prove" hes been paid or "sold" the intel. OF COURSE HE DID! ;=)"


Why would he be talking about it then?

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
as i was BLASTED just yesterday by many here to "prove" hes been paid or "sold" the intel. OF COURSE HE DID! ;=)

of course you were invited to prove that he sold intell to China

your statement was not a "prediction", it was said as a fact as if it already happened

you could provide no proof, zero

because it was never, ever, reported in any credible press release

you flat made it up


and NOW, just because Dr F decides to pull out of his ass the idea that if COULD be POSSIBLE, you jump on it like that is some kind of PROOF

don't get all excited because somebody agrees with you Ron, a blind squirrel finds an acorn from time to time

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.

And they are directing the ship of state exactly to the reef where he, as a disciple of Cloward and Piven have planed to wreck it from the beginning.

rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
and a libetarian wouldnt have imolated himself on the deck in worship of the occurance?
jghedge

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:38pm PT


"And they are directing the ship of state exactly to the reef..."


Hahahahahaha


Soooo convincing, coming from someone whose party has committed political suicide
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
the shore is littered with pre-positioned looters
Forrest B.

Trad climber
Appalacia
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Dr. F,

Go pound your lefty agenda somewhere else.

Hannity is part of the same machine your lefty friends in office are.

Fool.

Wake up already. Get with the program.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
are you saying theres is no one representing the other side of the argument in the leftist media?!?!?!?
Forrest B.

Trad climber
Appalacia
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
I'm saying the media is playing you. The left will take one side, nd the right the other. The end result stays the same, as long as you all keep playing there game.
jghedge

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:58pm PT


Hahahahaha, the more bitter the loser, the more he'll try to convince you that it doesn't matter who wins.

Just human nature.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
Oh man! Beer almost spilled reading this. Spot on!




Get the feeling the president has lost his grip on the rudder of government?

Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws without a care would be your first indication he isn't at the helm.

But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.
rSin

Trad climber
calif
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
that only correct if your colating the mainstream liberal media

there are plenty of outlets and sources who have been following the components of this issue for decades

pacifica for example


this isnt a breaking story
its a breakin bit of evidence in a longstanding story


your full of sh#t ab!

you cheered the very same when a white skinned christian said go do it
jghedge

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:05pm PT




"Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws..."


But ask your typical wingnut what laws have been broken, or what crimes have been committed, and you get...



......crickets.......
dirtbag

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
Benghazi!





oh wait...that really wasn't a scandal.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Here's what's happened so far as a result of Snowden's leaks:

Link: Leaks are vital
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
nice post k-man

edit:democracy can be ugly
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
The question I keep asking myself is:

Why has the government kept this unilateral surveillance of USA citizens secret and private? If the government truly believes that spying on all USA citizens is necessary for our security, why then didn't the government just inform us of this? From the perspective of practical utility - the actual ostensible intelligence gathering related to 'terrorism' - it makes no difference whether the public knows about it or not... so why then the secrecy?

I come back to the notion of a nation of 'rulers and their subjects' (for example the political situation before the American Revolution) vs. a nation of citizens. We are being treated like subjects.

Thank you Mr. Snowden for having the both the conscience and balls to see this thing through. No doubt it's an immensely heroic deed.


"In A Time Of Universal Deceit, Telling The Truth Is A Revolutionary Act."
-Orwell


PS: thanks for the Christopher Hedges vs. Stone debate link upthread. Hedges is another bold voice in the sea of deceit, always willing to state that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
Petition to: Pardon Edward Snowden

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
http://victorygirlsblog.com/?p=12000

Why has the government kept this unilateral surveillance of USA citizens secret and private?