risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 10, 2013 - 02:33am PT
edward snowden just gave up a $100k+ job, his family, a girlfriend, a house in hawaii and most importantly physical security to inform the american [and global] public of what he has seen the NSA already implement and continue to expand. [edited pay down as initial reports of $200k/yr are likely exaggerated]

he appears to have risked all of this and followed his conscience as a public service. if you haven't seen this already, i hope you'll take twelve and a half minutes of your relatively comfortable life to listen to what he is saying: Edward Snowden: the whistle blower behind the NSA surveillance revelations

this is a leak that, if true, makes watergate look like a childhood prank. rather than being about some stupid political dirty trick, this is about the fundamental structure underlying almost the entirety of our contemporary and still emerging networked globe.

this is about confirming that the NSA is already very far along in implementing a previously secret, informational dragnet. a dragnet which, if one believes what snowden is telling us, harnesses archival capabilities that are mind-boggling in scope and breadth. using snowden's words, regardless of current intention, this informational construct has the potential to quickly be converted into an "architecture of oppression" and a "turnkey tyranny."

while it's easy to stick our heads under rocks and tell ourselves "why should i care, i have nothing to hide?" or to paraphrase obama "i'm not worried because i know the people behind the scenes and we can trust them" history has repeatedly shown that to take on this attitude is to be dangerously and self-destructively naive.

"may you live in interesting times", indeed...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:43am PT
this is a leak, that if true, makes watergate look like a childhood prank.


The government has already admitted that it is true, and has been going on for years. It started under Bush and Obama kept and expanded it.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:50am PT
TFPU
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:41am PT
While you may be angry and not like what the government is doing, the initial post here misses the point and creates a fallacy. Let's start with the following which is not legally in dispute:

(1) The program, whether you like it or not, was based upon a law passed by Congress, executed by the Executive and approved by a Federal Court. Congress admits that it had oversight as required by law (even if some in Congress did not like the program).

(2) Based upon the foregoing, the program was, by definition, legal. Watergate was not legal. It was a crime. There is no comparison here. The only crime here was by the guy who leaked the information. He admits he did so to start public debate on what was previously a private debate (i.e., within the confines of confidential Congressional hearings, etc.).

(3) The NSA has a Whistleblower program and set of procedures. This leaker chose to not even attempt to follow those procedures. While it is possible the procedures would not have resulted in anything - indeed, it is likely nothing would have happened since the NSA program complied with the law - it is the obligation of the leaker to at least follow the very procedures that he lawfully and legally agreed to follow.

(4) If people do not like this program, the solution lies in a new law to be passed by Congress since they passed the applicable laws in the first place - creating the FISA court and passing the Patriot Act (doing so again in December 2012). This is why we have elected officials. Now to be clear, I think Congress as a whole is horrible, but the solution is to elect new officials, not violate the law. Alternatively, you should work to convince your Congressperson/people that the law needs to change.

(5) What this leaker did was an extreme act of civil disobedience, NOT whistleblowing (look up the definition - the government was not breaking the law, they were following a law that some people now do not like). Sometimes civil disobedience works out great (think the origin of the Civil Rights Act). Sometimes, it is merely criminal activity. While I am a strong privacy advocate, I believe this case appears to be one of criminal activity.

(6) Bin Laden used to communicate via cell phone. He then learned that we could and were tracking all of his calls. He then switched to couriers and other methods, thus making it more difficult to track him. Every time there is a leak of our intelligence methods, it makes it easier for the bad guys to do what they do. I wonder if people who claim to be against this program would continue to be against it if the program was cancelled, and as a result, we failed to stop a terrorist attack like 9/11.

(7) People need to understand what the government was gaining access to (metadata from phone records, etc.) and what they were not (individual names, addresses, etc.). The idea is that if the government already had information on an individual, they were permitted (and indeed required by law) to go back and get a specific warrant to then get that individual's information - which pursuant to the program, was already being stored.

Again, it is critical that people realize that there does not appear to be any law broken by our government. They were following the law. The problem, if any, is in the law itself.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Kind of a fishy story.
According to Slate, this guy's attempt to take refuge in Hong Kong is a terrible plan. http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/06/10/edward_snowden_leak_investigation_justice_department_announces_probe_of.html
That may seem like a detail, but it strongly suggests to me that he isn't a careful or competent guy, and I'm suspicious of his motivations and candor.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
He's one of many, who will continue to expose, and eventually destroy, this threat to privacy and freedom.

a couple of slides he released on the PRISM data collection program:
from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-collection-documents/



see http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
(4) If people do not like this program, the solution lies in a new law to be passed by Congress since they passed the applicable laws in the first place - creating the FISA court and passing the Patriot Act (doing so again in December 2012). This is why we have elected officials. Now to be clear, I think Congress as a whole is horrible, but the solution is to elect new officials, not violate the law. Alternatively, you should work to convince your Congressperson/people that the law needs to change.

Congress passes a law, when everyone is scared and ready to give up their rights, and then the law is abused to collect information on everyone, not just foreigners, and the people don't even really know what the government is collecting on them.

If they did, this guy wouldn't be divulging any secrets rights?

So kudos to him and FU to the government who collects everything on everyone under the pretense of preventing a few bad guys from doing a few bad things.

Franklin said those who give up their freedom for security deserve neither. We are too far down the slippery slope already

Peace

Karl
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
^^^^ I don't cheat on my wife or do anything too illegal so I don't feel
any less private or free. We have no idea of how many threats or terrorist
attacks have been thwarted by this legal operation. I'm happy they're doing it.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
The Electronic Frontier Foundation, an Internet rights group, calls for a "new Church committee" to investigate potential government infringements on privacy and to write new rules protecting the public.

In the mid-70s a Senate investigation led by Idaho Senator Frank Church uncovered decades of serious, systemic abuse by the US government of its eavesdropping powers, an episode Glenn Greenwald has written frequently about. The Church Committee report led to the passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and set up the Fisa courts that today secretly approve surveillance requests.

A statement from EFF reads in part:

Congress now has a responsibility to the American people to conduct a full, public investigation into the domestic surveillance of Americans by the intelligence communities, whether done directly or in concert with the FBI. And it then has a duty to make changes in the law to stop the spying and ensure that it does not happen again.

In short, we need a new Church Committee.

Read the full statement here. There's support for such a new push inside Congress, too. On Sunday Senator Rand Paul said he would try to challenge the NSA surveillance programs in court, and Senator Mark Udall said he wanted to "reopen" the Patriot Act, to clarify limits on what it allows. Republican Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner recently wrote an editorial for the Guardian saying "I authored the Patriot Act, and this is an abuse of that law."

from
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-revealed-as-nsa-whistleblower-reaction-live
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
I am shocked and saddened by the responses here.

For those that say that we shouldn't be worried if we do not have anything to hide, at what point does price for "security" become too high? What other civil liberties are you willing to sacrifice at the alter of "safety?" How many more wars, civilian casualties in drone strikes, torture sessions and executions are you willing to endure? Do you REALLY think that we are winning the war on terror when the biggest casualties are the freedoms we give away?

I do not expect to change anyones mind with my post. America is in its final death throes, and I see a dark road ahead for Imperial Amerika Inc.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:19pm PT
How did he "risk his life" again?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
(1) The program, whether you like it or not, was based upon a law passed by Congress, executed by the Executive and approved by a Federal Court.


My emphasis.


Perhaps the program was based on law. However, the program went way beyond the law that was passed (the Patriot Act). Don't try to whitewash this, what the NSA is doing is ILLEGAL, pure and simple.

Whistleblower procedure my butt. You know as well as I do how far a complaint through the NSA protocols would go. Nowhere, and at light speed.


Congress admits that it had oversight as required by law (even if some in Congress did not like the program).


Tell me, how do you provide oversight if those providing details of their actions tell bald-faced lies about their programs?

Pathetic that you are trying to defend the NSA's actions here.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:22pm PT
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 10, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
This man is going to rot in a box like Madden, and for nothing. Nothing will be done, the machine's wheels have been turning long before and will long after.

michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
I find it interesting that I agree with many comments on both sides of this argument. However, for those who claim the program is "illegal" - that is currently an impossibility. The program was approved by a Federal Court. Therefore, by definition, it is legal. The Court's determine what is and is not legal. While an individual can certainly believe the Court got it wrong (being a lawyer, I often believe that to be the case), when the Court approves an action, that action by definition is legal. On the other hand, there is a clear argument that the law is being interpreted more broadly than initially intended - as often happens. As is always the case in such a scenario, the solution is within the legislature to pass a new law, particularly where the average citizen lacks standing to challenge the law. As for the Franklin quote, that is ALWAYS a battle that is going on with our lives on a daily basis. We allow all kinds of laws that impact our liberty in the name of safety. It's a slippery slope. We have speed limits, limits on weapons, license requirements for all types of behaviors and professions, seatbelt laws, security at airports, etc. The real question is where do we, as a society, draw the line? It's simply a cost-benefit analysis where there is no clear correct answer. However, I believe the correct answer requires that we follow the correct procedure. If one person dies as a result of this act of civil disobedience, there should be a murder charge against the leaker. That was the risk he took in making this unilateral decision. In the long run, perhaps he will turn out to have made the right decision, but it is a decision with real consequences that he has to accept.

With a warrant, the executive branch (cops, FBI, DEA, etc.) could ALWAYS search anything they wanted. The key was getting judicial approval. This current program obtained judicial approval. It is no different procedurally than any other warrant situation. If anything, this is less harmful since this information is not being used for criminal prosecution so as to invoke the protections of the 4th Amendment.

Again, the key here is do we want one individual to have the ability to override a decision made together by our 3 branches of government? If you are an anarchist, the answer is yes. If not, the answer should be no.

All of this being said, the cat is clearly out of the bag. Thus, people - namely, our government - now have to decide what liberty they are willing to give up for safety. Are you willing to have a computer view your Google searches if it saves one life? What is that life is someone you know? Perhaps, on the other hand, society is better off as a whole with more liberty and less safety - after all, we, as climbers, are generally willing to take personal risks to have a more thorough enjoyment of life when we go climbing. Maybe the balance between liberty and safety should be viewed the same way.
The Wedge

Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
I believe the high school drop-out, over some congressmen.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:36pm PT
The ONLY solution I can see if to reduce funding to the government. As this kind of empire building and expansion is routine for even benign programs, we need to reduce all funding to all programs.

In case anyone cares, when you look at your paycheck and see how much they are pulling out for federal taxes, realize that your employer also pays a shitload, and that between the amount that they get from both of you: THEY ARE BORROWING 40% MORE AS THEY CANNOT BALANCE THE CHECKBOOK. You gonna let your children be on the hook for this?

Current debt per taxpayer is $148,212 (ie, YOU) - and that number is increasing daily.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:38pm PT
I don't cheat on my wife

I wonder if they would rat u out if you were?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
The prism program was not "approved by a federal court." Someone did try to make a constitutional challenge to one of the NSAs programs about a year ago, but was thrown out for reasons of standing. You can't file a lawsuit without evidence under Rule 11. So if you can't prove you were spied on, you can't challenge the spying program.

I think if a case were properly presented to a court, this kind of spying would be unconstitutional. Their idea is that they can build a database of every communication of every US citizen, and have a detailed dossier ready to go if they need it. It's not a search until they use it. It doesnt target Americans because it doens't target anyone, at least the collection side. It's like the Bush-era arguments about torture. Absolutely nonsensical.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
If you see something suspicious taking place
then report that behavior.

http://www.dhs.gov/if-you-see-something-say-something-campaign

its our duty as citizens.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 10, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
Not a big fan of Prism, or other secret spying programs. And I do think this guy did do a favor to us.

However, it seems like he's having a little too much fun playing James Bond. Describing himself as a spy, when he was in reality a security guard and then an IT administrator. Saying his life was in danger, as well as the life of the reporters he talked to.

And was just listening to an interview the Guardian did with him. He was talking about how, since he was a sys admin, he saw lots more sensitive docs than the average CIA or NSA person did. While that's technically true, that's exactly the opposite of what you should be doing as an SA. You're not supposed to be poking through all those docs that you have access to because of your admin status.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
• Raised in Elizabeth City, North Carolina and later moved to Maryland.

• Attended a community college, but never completed his coursework and never graduated from high school.

• 2003-2004: U.S. Army, discharged after training accident

• 2005: NSA, Security Guard, University of Maryland.

• 2006: CIA, IT security.

• 2007-2009: CIA, diplomatic cover, Switzerland.

• 2009-2013: NSA Contractor, Dell and later Booz Allen Hamilton.

This is Bradley Manning all over again. How did this guy get a 200k a year job and access to everything?
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Someone did try to make a constitutional challenge to one of the NSAs programs about a year ago, but was thrown out for reasons of standing. You can't file a lawsuit without evidence under Rule 11. So if you can't prove you were spied on, you can't challenge the spying program.

Maybe he did this so it could be challenged?

That Franklin quote is funny. At first it got me all fired up, but then I started wondering if it was just more political rhetoric.

These guys have been in bed with the bankers since the foundation of America, but when the declaration of independence was written, the big challenge was to get people to go to work and not have them feel taken advantage of, leading to protest. The politicians of the day, had to work a lot harder to convince people that the were in fact "free".

Now we just take it for granted....

Edit
It needs special protection. Between google and the nsa and the cellular companies? Turn you inside out... presto quicko, and expose your ass to the world. Yes, you.

You got that right. I just assume that any electronic communication is basically public knowledge.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
I think it's important to understand that you can't have 100% security and then have 100% privacy and zero inconvenience...

That is such a bs statement. Does he really think the people are that stupid? Three completely, 100% unachievable goals. He throws up a straw man to defend his administrations' 100% unconstitutional actions.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Time for some heads to roll over this.

In March 2012, Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GA) asked Gen. Alexander, who was under
oath, “What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept
communications and information involving American citizens?

answer: We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.


Top admin lied under oath saying it was not happening when he knew the nsa has been collecting everything and keeps adding capability to spy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:29pm PT

We have far too much of this attitude in Washington - that the Constitution is an impediment that must be defeated. From health insurance mandates, to national security programs, the Constitutional test isn't whether it adheres to the letter and spirit of our founding document, but whether there is a believable work around that the Supreme Court will accept.

In that process, the Constitution becomes little more than a speed bump on the road to tyranny.


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2013/06/nsa_in_2000_hey_lets_rethink_the_fourth_amendment.html


If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.

Madison
Federalist 51


http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa51.htm


If PRISM were only used to pursue terrorists that's one thing, but this administration, (as well as past ones) has shown itself quite happy to use the administrative state to harass its political opponents.

Doesn't mean they are doing it now like they are using the IRS, but they could.

Be assured a future administration will.

Might not be your guy next time.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Well said TGT.


BTW Obama lovers. I told ya so. How was I sure this was happenning before it was reported? Because FISA and the Patriot act made it legal..Tech makes it doable. Therefore it would almost certainly exist. Funny how many folks yelled at me for not having specific evidence. Some things are so obvious it simply blows me away when folks are surprised to find out it's happenning.

Generally when it comes to defense stuff if you can imagine it and it seems likely then it's already being done.


Another side to this argument I haven't heard. It seems to me like outlawing the nuclear weapon. The cats out of the bag.. the capability exists and any government now or in the future that wishes to use this type of thing AGAINST it's people will do so. No matter what happens to the current PRISM.

It is technology and the people need to use the same thing on politicians. 24-7 public surveillance should be the price of power. Well perhaps that is a bit extreme and unworkable. But I do think turnabout could be fair-play and have some positive results.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
It's simply a cost-benefit analysis where there is no clear correct answer. However, I believe the correct answer requires that we follow the correct procedure.

There is nothing that's simple about an analysis that measures social benefits. I've been a part of some of those. What is the value of human life? What is the value of well-being? What is the value of silence or of clean air? Although insurance companies can calculate expected life earnings, what people will pay for more silence, etc., those are economic calculations that have inherent and incommensurable equalities. Avoiding fixing automobile gas tanks versus paying out a few lawsuits after intense legal blocking for design negligence are also cost-benefit analyses. Simple? How about "questionable?"

You would made H.L.A. Hart proud, Mr. Feldman.

Legal positivism has its problems, but not according to Mr. Feldman here. "What is the law is the law." Gee, thanks. Thinking and reflection are hardly needed in your world. Indeed, this makes the law and lawyers technocrats.

Ronald Dworkin had other ideas: laws need be meritorious; the coercive force that governments can use should be regulated according to conditions; laws are to be interpreted; the law (laws with other laws) must exhibit integrity to make sense; law is integrated with morality (that there is no separation between the two); how we come to know the law is more important than knowing what the law is; and the law (laws) should provide a seamless web.

Clearly not all the facts are in, but Mr. Feldman (an attorney, apparently) has already convicted the accused.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
You don't "rethink" the Constitution.
You don't design surveillance programs to get around it.
And you don't twist the law into a pretzel in order to make the illegal,
legal.
jdal

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
Before you all get your knickers in a twist it's worth noting that the article quoted in the OP was from a UK newspaper. The concern it expresses is that only US citizens are protected by US law, UK citizens have no privacy protection in the US over use of this data and there is the potential for UK surveilance authorities to dodge UK privacy law in some way by accessing Prism data. We are assured by the UK government that this isn't happening. Ho ho.
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
Mike, I do not convict anyone. Rather, I see an individual who signed a contract swearing secrecy, and then intentionally taking documents to which he was not entitled to take, and disclosing those documents in violation of not only his contract (with its confidentiality provisions), but also in violation of Federal law which makes the disclosure illegal. I leave it to a Court to convict if charged. Do not, however, confuse liability for breaking the law and doing the right thing. They are often different. Surely we would all break the law to save someone's life we care about. We would then have to face the consequences for doing so, and hope the Court's would have mercy on us. The most simple situation is speeding to the hospital to bring someone dying. We would all do it without regard to running read lights or exceeding the speed limit. It would still be illegal. We would just hope/assume that nobody would try to punish us. That is what the leaker did here.

As for the Court which approved it, it was the FISA Court. The Judges on the FISA Court are the same Federal judges that serve on the rest of our Federal Courts - appointed by the President with approval from the Senate. They are assigned to the FISA Court by the US Supreme Court on a rotating basis. Like all Federal judges, they have lifetime tenure, and thus, are technically immune from political hacks. The programs were approved by the FISA Court from what I have read.

I am all for privacy rights. I do not yet have a full understanding of how this information was used. None of us do. Thus, I have no idea (and neither do any of you) of whether the programs overreached. I am just trying to deal with the facts as we know them. Those facts are pretty clear (albeit quite limited). I do not trust the government as a whole. I do not trust Congress to do their job as they are too strongly influenced by lobbyists and money. I work in the Judicial system, and while there are plenty of horrible judges, I trust them to not be corrupt. If we want more privacy and more liberty, we need to push for same with our legislatures. We need to push the issue, and present informed arguments as to why giving up some security is worth it for the sake of liberty. This IS a slippery slope in either direction. If our spy programs are all public, they are not spy programs. If we give up all liberty, then what are we fighting to protect anyway? I am also interested to know if ANYWAY has been harmed by this program. In theory, we should be considering who was harmed, the cost of the program and what benefits the program has produced. Of course, this should have all been done by those in Congress who are required, and lawfully authorized, to oversee the program. This is NOT something that the public should reviewing (as opposed to debating the overall issue which has been in the public eye since 9/11) anymore than we should be reviewing battle plans, or criminal investigations in general.

For all those who are now complaining about the program, I am curious whether you were raising outrage and trying to do something about it after 9/11 when the Patriot Act was passed, or when it was renewed this past December. Hell, I wonder if people will make this an issue now. Many elections are coming up. We, as citizens in the US who are able to vote, have a duty to stand up, be heard and vote at election time. If we fail to do so, we cannot then be heard to complain about the actions of our legislators. Maybe this will be a lesson for the 45% (approx) of our population who fails to even vote in a Presidential election.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
Been against it since the patriot(TREASON) act was proposed. Wasn't hard to figure out where it was all going. never understood how the death of 3000 people warranted spitting on the sacrifice of about 1 million American soldiers who so many like to say "died for our freedom"

As Franklins basically said. Those who sacrifice freedom for liberty will lose both.

Another guy who i think might have been an alpinist and made pretty good beer stated. "give me liberty or give me death"

Lately I find myself gagging when the National anthem is sung and the words "home of the brave" come along.

Was terribly crushed when candidate then SENATOR Obama voted for telecom immunity. I was actually begginning to believe in him until then... thats when I realized democracy in the USA was dead.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Ok, Michael. I appreciate a fuller explanation of your views. Thanks.

Still messy and ambiguous to me, but as you say, I don't know all about the specific laws in question, execution, oversight, and the facts. I wrote about some jurisprudence issues that stood out to me, which probably will never see the light of dialogue here.

(I'm not exactly for positivism in almost any form, as you might tell.)
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 10, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
"It's legal" is not a good argument on the side of the government. Let's say that it is legal for the cops to ask for a warrant to search your house and it is legal for a judge to evaluate their request and issue that warrant. No where in the law is there a clear and definitive line drawn as to what constitutes probable cause and illegal search and seizure; it is all a matter of court opinion. The only recourse if a judge gets a little too generous with search warrants is to point it out, have lawsuits in federal courts, etc. There is no law that can be changed to make a judge act within the constitution.

So although the FISA court allowed this, that does not mean that the actions of that court are constitutional. There is certainly no law that limits what they FISA court can and cannot approve. What they decide is just a matter of their anonymous opinion.

Since we have no way to see any of this happening, there is no way for the public to act as a deterrent to an over-zealous or even tyrannical court.

So maybe it's not legal. Maybe peoples civil rights have been trampled on and everyone who knows about it is just fine letting it happen because they are the ones interpreting the law.

Dave
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
I see an individual who signed a contract swearing secrecy, and then intentionally taking documents to which he was not entitled to take, and disclosing those documents in violation of not only his contract (with its confidentiality provisions), but also in violation of Federal law which makes the disclosure illegal.

And I see a Gov't that does not abide by the laws its Congress creates. And then, when an individual exposes the breach of laws by those at the top levels of the Gov't, they imprison the ones who expose them.


They are called "whistle blowers" for a reason.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
I can't believe there are actually people who are okay with their own government spying on them.


Who feels safe?


"Oh yay, the government is tracking my every move in person, and on the internet, I FEEL SO SAFE" said no one ever.


Edward Snowden is a good person.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
I'm sure there's more than a bit of CYA going on here, but even the guy who wrote the "Patriot Act" says that what's going on now is, and always was, clearly illegal.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/09/abuse-patriot-act-must-end
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
Go away Crawlly
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:26pm PT
This can stand up to a repeat (michael f., the bold is for you):

Time for some heads to roll over this.

In March 2012, Rep. Hank Johnson (D-GA) asked Gen. Alexander, who was under
oath, “What judicial consent is required for NSA to intercept
communications and information involving American citizens?

answer: We’re not authorized to do it, nor do we do it.


Top admin lied under oath saying it was not happening when he knew the nsa has been collecting everything and keeps adding capability to spy.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/seanlawson/2013/06/06/did-intelligence-officials-lie-to-congress-about-nsa-domestic-spying/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
And on the Manning trial:

The military trial of Bradley Manning is a judicial lynching. The government has effectively muzzled the defense team. The Army private first class is not permitted to argue that he had a moral and legal obligation under international law to make public the war crimes he uncovered. The documents that detail the crimes, torture and killing Manning revealed, because they are classified, have been barred from discussion in court, effectively removing the fundamental issue of war crimes from the trial. Manning is forbidden by the court to challenge the government’s unverified assertion that he harmed national security. Lead defense attorney David E. Coombs said during pretrial proceedings that the judge’s refusal to permit information on the lack of actual damage from the leaks would “eliminate a viable defense, and cut defense off at the knees.”
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I hope he keeps his soap on a rope.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 10, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
Finally, an issue that Dems and the GOP can agree on.

I'm a Democrat, and this sort of nonsense is obviously wrong.

I'm glad that we all can have a kumbaya moment here.

Now, back to partisanship!!!!
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
Yer Gunna Die!

Do you understand that down to your core?

If you are young and happen to live 80+ years as you have a fair chance to.. YER STILL GUNNA DIE!

And if you do live that long you will live through the death of around 8 to 10 BILLION people.

Now as climbers we tend to SAY we embrace the idea that quality is worth the risk of quantity when it comes to life. Some of us DIE based on that choice.

The leaker is my hero. Even though he is probably a bit odd and unstable. He probably spoke up in vain. America will continue to give up freedom for the security to live crappy lives full of fear and and weekends away from jobs they hate and can barely eek out a living with. Scrapping and squabbling in crappy little concrete jungles.

Another hero once said. "Give me Liberty or Give me Death"
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
Spies!

Spies Everywhere!

IRS Buying Spying Equipment: Covert Cameras in Coffee Trays, Plants

Only accepting bids for 19hours until purchase is made.

Hurry! They need the bugs right now! Tues June 11 2013.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/irs-buying-spying-equipment-covert-cameras-coffee-trays-plants


Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
Did you all forget that this was exposed in 2007. It started soon after we signed our rights over to Big Brother under the [un]Patriot Act.
At times they (NSA, FBI, DHS et al) have changed the name of it so they could claim that they stopped a particular program. But or course the general practice never stopped expanding and now it's expanded 100-fold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2007/11/ex-att-employee-nsa-snooping-internet-traffic-too/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html

No case yet has stopped them.
https://www.eff.org/cases/jewel
https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/att/Shubert%20opening%20brief%209th%20Circuit.pdf
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/amnesty-et-al-v-clapper
https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/


Don't even dream that they are only looking at comms of foreigners. In order to do that, first they have to screen everything. And if you have ever made a foreign call or email, or looked at a foreign website, you are now a suspect.
WBraun

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
The NSA surveillance has been known to the public for years.

The main stream media (MSM) has reported almost nothing about it for years.

The stupid Americans only follow MSM.

MSM has suddenly reported the NSA surveillance.

Stupid Americans suddenly think it's something new.

Stupid Americans still don't have a clue what's really going on even though it's spelled out in the clear every day.

Only when they "see" something on MSM a dim light bulb goes on in their dim heads.

You've all been owned and pawned to the max.

You should all just STFU and stand in the line to the guillotine you've all made for yourselves all along ......

dirtbag

climber
Jun 10, 2013 - 07:52pm PT
^^^^^Grumpy^^^^^
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
Finally, an issue that Dems and the GOP can agree on.

I'm a Democrat, and this sort of nonsense is obviously wrong.


The GOP is only against it if DEMs are in power. I'm against it no matter what

Peace

Karl
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
Oh so Werner is an Islamist because he speaks the truth about the delusion of the American populace? I don't think so.

Islam is just another religion.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Rsin
islamicist understudy actually

ROFLMAO!

yer stooopid. Not from around these parts methinks..

Even if Werner is just repeating what I've been saying.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 08:43pm PT
Islam is just another religion.

Nah!

It's just the

"cult of the child molesting warlord"

It's an insult to the rest of the major religions to compare them.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
Why was all this OK 8 years ago?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 10, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
it wasn't

It was OK for the last five years until Barry cut his minions loose on the press.

When their own ox was gored they finally started paying attention.

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:33pm PT
Democracy Now interviews ex-NSA officials "slippery slope toward totalitarian society"....

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/10/on_a_slippery_slope_to_a
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jun 10, 2013 - 11:52pm PT
1997 I was a Central Office Supervisor overseeing 25 offices for one of America's notable Telcos.

We received internal orders to build unrestricted T1 lines into each offices Administrative and Control Panel which gave direct access to all traffic points that originated and terminated within that particular Central Office.

In simpler terms - these access portals gave the end user unfettered access to every landline call, every data link transfer, every encrypted DSL transmission that occurred in real time.

Curious as to who ordered such unprecedented access, we were only told that concerned government agencies had been granted access and to comply with the build request and consider these connections to be off-limits to all Telco personnel unless directed otherwise by no less than a regional VP.

Being the snoopy people that we were, we backtraced these connections through numerous jump links and eventually tracked them to Virginia - home of many a nefarious federal agency.

Through undetected monitoring, we determined that these unnamed agencies were capturing and in essence, bugging potentially every call process that occurred within our offices.

I was not surprised , but I was disappointed that my own country feared the general citizen to the degree that they would monitor all that we said, heard or sent over the public network.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:04am PT
OK when Bush was doing it without a warrant,

Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition.

The "well Bush did it " is getting tiring.

Barry IS doing it!

On Mohammedans,

Name another major world religion where respected theologians have scholarly debates on whether their founder really f*#ked a nine year old girl, or waited till she was twelve?

Ever read the Koran?

Hard to find a suria that doesn't have at least one command somewhere to go kill some infidels.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:35am PT
ever read the Hebrew Bible? Glorification of (God sanctioned) genocide throughout - or so the authors would have us believe. What's new. Where's the hate come from?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:54am PT
Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are Being Violated


NOVA: The Spy Factory
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/spy-factory.html

The Washington Post: Top Secret America - A hidden world, growing beyond control
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/

NSA Spies on Everyone:
http://youtu.be/TuET0kpHoyM



This has been going on now for a long time. Seems average joe is just waking to this.

It's absolutely wrong no matter how you look at it.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:33am PT
I have tried to resist posting on this thread...I worked in the business for over 30 years. I signed god knows how many secrecy oaths under Title 18. I still take them seriously, even 10 years later. if you believe the system s being abused, you have a choice: file a complaint within the system, either the Whistleblowers office or the Inspector General, or resign and shut up. You might want to believe that these offices are in charge of whitewashing...except that I know for a fact that they go a bit apeshit over privacy.

As a contractor, I NEVER had the right or authority to violate need to know by divulging classified information, including sources and methods, even if I didn't agree with them. It was a promise that I made to my government and in effect TO EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU. Snowden took those same oaths, and in my book, he's no hero.

Snowden isn't risking his life, he's only risking his freedom, and IMHO, he should lose it. Of one thing I am certain...we cannot allow personnel that have taken secrecy oaths to make up their own rules about what information can or should be divulged. We know what's at stake when we sign them, and no one has ever put a gun to my head in the process of signing.

I know some of you might disagree, but frankly, there are things of which you just have no need to know. You might like to know, or wish you knew, but that's just not the way we work, and for the most part, you've all survived quite well not knowing the details.

I cannot/willNOT speak for Prism or NSA. I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:49am PT
http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/can_you_use_the_internet_without_prism_partner/
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:47am PT
Edward Snowden is a "whistleblower' in the same way Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen and John Walker Jr. were all "whistleblowers."

Curt
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:00am PT
Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:11am PT
I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:19am PT
Snowden is Paul Revere, of the American 21st century.

Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.

Curt
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:37am PT
K-Man, my understanding of the testimony to which you cite is that the "communications" have a specific meaning in the intelligence community - namely, specific verbal or written communications being "intercepted" by a human. The programs at issue do not involve this from what I understand. I also understand that if they (the NSA) wants to have a human review any of the actual communications, they first have to go back and get a specific warrant. So was the testimony theoretically misleading to someone who does not know the proper terminology? Surely. Was it false? Apparently not. That being said, I assume most of the Congressional testimony we hear on all issues is pretty much BS or mere posturing.

In any event, after reviewing most of these postings, it is clear that most people are merely stating their opinion as to whether or not they like the program. If they do, then the leaker is a criminal. If they do not, then the government is breaking the law and the leaker is a hero. Such positions are generally falsely based. As things stand, the Patriot Act is legal. As things stand, a Constitutional Court approved the spy program, and thus, it IS Constitutional. That is the way our system works. This does not mean you need to like the law or the Court's interpretation, but it IS the law and it IS Constitutional. The remedy is to overturn the law or ask the Executive branch to not exercise its rights under the law - both of which are acceptable. People have to stop confusing their dislike of this program, or dislike of the Patriot Act, or dislike of the government, with what the law or the Constitution allows.

In addition to all of this, I find it curious that people are ok with going through X-ray machines, having their bags opened, going through pat-downs, etc. (often just to use public places), but they are outraged by a computer scanning their phone calls or Internet searches - which they claim they did not even know about anyway. I was just on a climbing trip and had every item in my carry-on backpack opened and studied, including each individual food bag, etc. It took a while. It was a pain. Yet, I told the person doing the search that I was glad they were at least being thorough. Did it make me feel that the terrorists got a small victory? Absolutely. I lost some freedom of movement. I have to get to Court earlier so my bag can be searched. This means less time doing other things. It sucks. However, it is not illegal. It is a price we pay to feel safe and be safe.

There can be no dispute that there is a fine line between balancing individual liberty and freedom versus security and safety. In making this analysis - which is quite individual - we need to consider whether we would rather be free, but scared from attacks, or lose some liberty, but feel safe. This answer may vary depending on where you live. I watched the second plane hit the Twin Towers on my way to work on 9-11. Many people in my town died that day. My wife works in NYC. I worry about future terrorist attacks, thus, I am willing to give up a little liberty to feel safe for me and my family (which I do). Someone living in a small mountain town may not have the same personal safety concern because terrorist attacks on their community may seem more remote.

Finally, if we are going to have this debate, we all need to understand that there are clearly valid views and positions on both sides of the argument. There is no clear cut solution to the liberty v. safety argument. Different strokes for different folks.
michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Just read this: http://news.yahoo.com/world-getting-warmer-faster-expected-132734289.html;_ylt=AjyFHY5iVqmdlBZ38syB_3W1qHQA;_ylu=X3oDMTVxNXQ4ZnFzBGNjb2RlA2dtcHRvcDEwMDBwb29sd2lraXVwcmVzdARtaXQDQXJ0aWNsZSBNaXhlZCBMaXN0IE5ld3MgZm9yIFlvdSB3aXRoIE1vcmUgTGluawRwa2cDOTM0YjMyNjAtOTg2My0zMzI1LWE0ZTEtMTExZjUxYTdkNDc5BHBvcwM4BHNlYwNuZXdzX2Zvcl95b3UEdmVyAzllMjE5ZmYyLWQxZDEtMTFlMi1iZjY3LWUyNWFkOGZkZWQ2MA--;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3

When I read that global temps are now predicted to increase 9 degrees F by 2020, I am reminded that there are far larger issues getting ignored, and we should be focusing more on such big picture and survival issues instead of a lawful spy program that has yet to harm anyone (at least, not that I have heard of). So when you decide to vote or call your Congress representative to complain about the spy program and ask for a change in the law, let them know they also have to do something about CO2 emissions and pollution. Far more people will die due to Climate Change than terrorist attacks or spying on terrorists (or potential terrorists).
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:06am PT
I understand your opinion, but your modern day PAul Revere is heading into a federal pen for quite a long time.

So was Paul Revere if the Government got him.
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:10am PT
After massive media brainwashing over many years .....

Americans have succumbed to the Machine.

Americans have become the Machine.

Americans are now THE Machine.

The machine is run by the operator.

Americans have become the the dumb Machine under the control of its operators.

Stupid people ......

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:10am PT
Why did he run to China? Why is Russia offering him asylum? Two questions that bring an odd feel to this.

They are just doing what we do all the time to them. Protecting the politically persecuted. America does political imprisonment too. But like the Chinese we like to claim the prisoner broke our law. Whether our law is just or not.

This thread makes me sick. Werner is right.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:15am PT
michael, I appreciate your thoughtful replies.

As far as I know, the NSA stretched the law by collecting communication records on US citizens
without a prior warrant--with our without a machine.

Certainly, highly-paid layers will finagle down to a micro-letter that the law does not specifically
state that the NSA stretched beyond the law, but I do believe we all know the intent of the law.

Bats squeeze through 1/4" openings, and that's akin to what layers do with the law, they find ways to
squeeze through the smallest of openings to deem something legal or illegal, the letter of the
law opposed to the spirit of the law.


Why am I so concerned about the NSA leak? I don't need to worry if I don't do anything "wrong," right?

"Wrong" as in attend a peaceful protest against a war, or any other Gov't activity I may want to
stand against. Perhaps I want to show appreciation for the cause behind the Occupy movement.
And when I do, I will be labeled a terrorist and have my electronic communication combed like
Lady Gaga's hair.


"Every single time any major media outlet reports on something that the government is hiding,
that political officials don't want people to know, such as the fact that they are collecting
the phone records of all Americans, regardless of any suspicion of wrongdoing, the
people in power do exactly the same thing," Greenwald said. "They attack the media as the
messenger and they are trying to discredit the story."


And, I fully agree on your concern about climate change--it's rediculous that we have to
fight the establishment that brings us our AWG deniers. (BTW, check out http://www.tinyurl.com,
like this: http://tinyurl.com/krhsez4 ;-)
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:18am PT
cyber war is lately being used as a goofy name for the ancient art of spying. Something all nations do to one another. It isn't war until it is used to do direct damage. I havn't heard that China is accused of anything more than data collection. Could be wrong.

Funny how the laws of nations allow spying via diplomatic cover but the laws for their people do not.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:20am PT
China was just accused of stealing military secrets.
I suppose that is "data collection."

How about the cyber war against the nuclear research in Iran?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:20am PT
heh edited at same time to include Iran

Yep just good ole spying same as we do. Cept we actually have used hacking to do damage to other nations.

America has done cyber war. Iran
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:27am PT
Well, if you're a Revolutionary War buff, he's actually more similar to Benedict Arnold.

Curt

Depends what side you were on. But clearly the states were the Rebels.

There are higher laws than the written ones. as our founders clearly pointed out.
When the written law requires you to do what is wrong.
What does a good man follow?
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
A quick calculation of the phone "metadata":
300 million people making 10 calls a day. We harvest source phone, destination phone, time and length. Each can be stored as a 32 bit integer, 16 bytes per call. I get 48 Gb per day; would fill my hard drive in 4 days. Have no idea how accurate 10 calls per day is.

A totalitarian government occupies every aspect of your life. We are getting there.

Snowden is a hero.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:

http://www.everyjoe.com/2013/06/11/girls/lindsay-mills-photos-edward-snowden-girlfriend-ballerina/?pid=4015
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
Snowden has a very hot girlfriend:

had. Now he's fleed the country and likely going to rot in a cell for the rest of his life. Meanwhile she has to deal with her private photos being shared online by pervs. Fun stuff.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
I would have had her meet me in Iceland.


GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Um...and you know, somehow, she didn't post those photos herself?

It just feels creepy. I'm sure she did, back when life was great.

empathy... try it.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
Blah...lighten up dude.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
Snowden is a hero for sure. To paraphrase Daniel Ellsberg, "at great risk to himself, Snowden has conferred an incalculable benefit on our democracy".

For those of you critical of Snowden, those of you so willing to give up all privacy, and possibly all liberty, for the sake of some safety, how did you become rock climbers? Doesn't your strong preference for safety dictate you stay at home on the couch and surf the tube?

Maybe you are sport climbers. If so, then I understand. :-)
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:47pm PT
This story stinks on every level.

Of course we were being spied on since the Bush admin. Nothing new, Obama's crew just kept it going. Patriot act everyone!

And I'm sorry but how does a high school dropout and military failure like this guy manage to earn top secret CIA security clearances with a $200K job? Not even Carrie Mathison can get that. And she's not real.

Though I do love Homeland.

Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
Fluoride, as public education is in large part an exercise in conformity, very smart people sometimes have great difficulty in school. They choose not to conform. Did you watch Snowden's video? He is quite aritculate and clearly very bright.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
very smart people sometimes have great difficulty in school.

Greg Davis, Junior College drop-out. I'm a smrat!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
In America, the Stupid have the numbers, and the Stupid will always band together to defeat the Smart Guy.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
Of course we were being spied on since the Bush admin.

I suggest you read Wild Bill Donovan, the founder of the OSS. The OSS
didn't do much spying on US citizens, that was J Edgar Hoover's portfolio,
which we all know he carried out with a vengeance. The stuff he did makes
anything the NSA is doing look a very weak sauce.
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
I suspect that the only reason the content of our phone calls is not being harvested is the prohibitive storage requirement.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
the prohibitive storage requirement.

Just did the math, ~80 bytes per text times 7 texts a day times 300 million cell phones... 65 terabytes a year for just texts. Really not that much. Add in pictures/photos and it skyrockets, tho. I have 2 terabytes on my 4-year old home PC, FYI.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:20pm PT
If he likes ballerinas, which apparently is the case, Russia would be an excellent choice.

I see that Booze Allen fired him-- funny if he filed a wrongful termination suit.

I almost had to get a security clearance once and researched the ins and outs of it, it's really not that big of a deal if you've kept your nose more or less clean.

Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
Hi G
Good work for the storage requirements of texts. I was thinking of the digitized audio of a phone call, considerably more than 80 bytes.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
Good work for the storage requirements of texts. I was thinking of the digitized audio of a phone call, considerably more than 80 bytes

Good call. Well, they did put a man on the moon... what's a couple of Fry's electronics worth of storage?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
I almost had to get a security clearance once and researched the ins and outs of it, it's really not that big of a deal if you've kept your nose more or less clean.

Oh yeah? Try and get one to work at Sandia Labs. You would think they
were building atomic bombs there or something.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
The phone call records fishing expeditions were the main focus of the hearings lately. But that is only the tip of the iceberg, as Snowden told. They aren't going to discuss in open hearings most of what they do.
What is the difference between searching the content of all internet comms and searching every house?

Separately, - if they are going to look at all comms, why is the policy itself classified? It's one thing to classify the actual infomation gained, but in a democracy the people need to know how the government works.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
congress should shut up

they voted FOR this, over and over on renewals

now some pretend they never heard of it

posers
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
And I'm sorry but how does a high school dropout and military failure like this guy manage to earn top secret CIA security clearances with a $200K job?

Simple. He didn't.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/booz-allen-reveals-snowdens-salary-was-122-000

Curt
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
100 plus is still a bunch of money!

Seems like a strange action on his part. Lose your country, live in girlfriend "dancer", and now he has to worry about getting taken by the Chinese.

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
Ron, they could lock him in solitary incommunicado just like Manning.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:11pm PT

he broke our laws by leaking classified information, and when we get our hands on him we will prosecute, find him guilty, and sentence him to prison

that is why he left and is hiding in Hong Kong and probably will accept asylum from Russia if they make good on talking about offering it to him

we'll get him eventually and he could get 20 years here
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
did you see what they are doing to Bradley Manning? 3 years in prison (before trial). 23 hour a day in solitary. Talking of death penalty. Trumped up charges that in no way fit the crime.

Of course there is always the possibility he in on a CIA mission, and all the press is just put out in order to get the trust of the Chinese. In the world of spooks, you can never know in the end who is who.

But as to the wire tapping, I think the only way for civil disobedience to bring this sh#t down is if we all start peppering our emails and phone calls with words like "bomb", "terror", smuggle, timer..... You get the idea. 300 million false alarms a day would shut them down I'm sure. I wonder if the Prism system will pick me up now. lol
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
Damage control article mostly claiming exaggeration, if you believe it.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57588337-38/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-tech-companies/

But even that likely wouldn't apply to the slides that have not been published.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?

Do you want to live in a country where good people sit by and watch the government abuse their power? If your boss asked you not to tell as he pocketed charitable donation dollars, would you speak up? Who is the traitor, the one doing the will of the democracy or the one spying on citizens?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:27pm PT




Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There

Jun 11, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Norton, what is wrong with you?

Heat stroke, 100 here today
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
Norton, Canyoncat, et al.

Read 1984 if you haven't already done so.

A brief line from the 1984 wiki description:

"Nineteen Eighty-Four is a dystopian[1] novel by George Orwell published in 1949. The Oceanian province of Airstrip One is a world of perpetual war, omnipresent government surveillance, and public mind control, dictated by a political system euphemistically named English Socialism (Ingsoc) under the control of a privileged Inner Party elite that persecutes all individualism and independent thinking as thoughtcrimes.[2] Their tyranny is headed by Big Brother, the quasi-divine Party leader who enjoys an intense cult of personality, but who may not even exist. Big Brother and the Party justify their rule in the name of a supposed greater good."
labrat

Trad climber
Auburn, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
"People who "leak" classified information are traitors. No more, no less. The whole point of having secret or top secret clearances are that you swear to keep the information limited to those with proper clearance. Do you really want to live in a country where each individual decides on their own which "secret" is worth keeping, or which should be shared?"

Totally agree. He signed on to the process. Punishment will happen if he is caught. Senate and Congress and President(s) all know it's going on. If you don't want it to happen elect different people......
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
Cannot make the public exposure of nsa criminal activity also a crime.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
“I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight
Getting lost in that hopeless little screen”

Democracy is coming to the U.S.A Songwriter: COHEN, LEONARD

Problem not only Edward Snowden but there a few others in his field that can see what is in store for the future of the U.S.A. and it is not Democracy but Tyranny since it is written on the wall.

canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
I can only speak for myself. I've worked in positions where I held top secret clearance. I will take that knowledge with me to the grave. I didn't even discuss it with my parents or spouse. I've never been in the position of having to support something I didn't believe in, or believed was morally wrong.

If I did, I would do the honorable thing and quit my job (and still keep my damn mouth shut). If it was so egregious that I felt the system was being abused, I'd have reported it through the proper channels. If that didn't resolve things to my satisfaction, tough sh#t. Your option is to not "be a part of it". Quit. Stop sucking at the government tit you so hate. If what the government is doing is so wrong, and everyone who works on the program knows it's wrong, and they all quit, then the program won't function will it? But, what about people who won't quit? Hmmm, maybe this isn't a big, bad government issue, but a greedy people without moral compass issue?
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
Canyoncat, have you watched Snowden's interview? He doesn't seem to be motivated by money at all, and he does seem to have a very stable moral compass.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
Why would she bother? All she does is bitch about sh!t.. Not one positive post. Ever
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
This is a tough one. As I said earlier, I think the govt is abusing its power beyond what it needs to, and being less transparent than it could be.

And to give Snowden some credit, he does seem to have been a bit more discriminating than Manning about what he disclosed. Manning included docs that named actual sources...putting those people in danger. Snowden disclosed a program that he didn't agree with. And one where the disclosure doesn't probably immediately endanger anyone.

But it does seem to me that he has done a bunch of exaggeration about his personal situation and his likely level of access/control. That makes me a little suspicious. Going to China is also a little dubious.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
I will take that knowledge with me to the grave.

I bet you will.
Right to the slaughterhouse.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
The fact that vacuuming American phones and internet by this STRATCOM/NSA
program had to be approved in secret by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
Court (known as FISA), created to provide secret judicial oversight of the
intelligence community actions outside the USA,

indicates that the system of checks and balances installed to prevent abuses
and overreach does not work. In other words, ending the surveillance will
not be sufficient. The bad law, the process, and the people involved that

allowed total domestic surveillance systems to be brought online
-- a creation of the so-called Patriot Act, a truly Orwellian nomenclature

must be overhauled as well.


splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
"What NSA criminal activity?"

The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
The DNI provided testimony before the Senate indicating that the NSA did not collect information on millions of Americans. At a minimum could you concede that Snowden has exposed possibly false testimony and an attempt to mislead elected representatives that are charged to oversee intelligence activities?

although addressed to Hedge, I certainly would concede your statement

Snowden set off a needed transparency bomb at the very least

he will pay for it, he knew that when he did it

I am glad he did it so we can have an open debate about it, and I don't see how he actually harmed anyone by doing so
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
Hedge, again you see everything through the lens of right and left, conservative and liberal, Republican and Democrat.

This is not a partisan issue. Take your friggin' funny glasses off!!

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 03:59pm PT
“but a greedy people without moral compass issue?”

It is a power issue: one being about the people who really run the world especially the ones in the US that think and believe that their moral compass needs to be stuff down our/your throat.

Guess you believe Ellsberg is a traitor but then again we would never have known the truth about the Viet Nam war and a few other things.

What is the CIA’s motto, "And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free”
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
"Who's idea was it to put GPS circuitry in cell phones, do you suppose???"

Did you see that presentation by the CTO of CIA indicating that the accelerometers in your phone could be used to ID you with 99% accuracy. Your gait is that unique and diagnostic. We are snowflakes.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cia-presentation-on-big-data-2013-3?op=1
crøtch

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwiUVUJmGjs&feature=youtu.be&t=6m9s
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
"What NSA criminal activity?"

However, NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (USSID 18) strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "... U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations...." without explicit written legal permission from the United States Attorney General when the subject is located abroad, or the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court when within U.S. Borders.

    Wikipedia


So, unless the FISC gave orders to tap everybody's electronic communication, the NSA is operating Out Of Bounds.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
"The temptation to sacrifice liberty to end suffering often becomes an attack on the reality of the liberty itself. Rebecca West, a prominent novelist and literary critic (and erstwhile mistress of H. G. Wells) said Huxley had “rewritten in terms of our age” Dostoevsky’s famous parable of the Grand Inquisitor from The Brothers Karamazov—“a symbolic statement that every generation ought to read afresh.”

“The Grand Inquisitor” is a story within the story, a troubled Karamazov brother’s case against both man and God. In his legend, Christ returns to earth in the fifteenth century and raises a child from the dead; this miracle causes a crowd and a commotion. The Grand Inquisitor, the cardinal of Seville, has Christ arrested and, sentencing Him to death, denounces Him for condemning mankind to misery when He could have made for them a paradise on earth. Underpinning his accusation is the problem of evil: how, if God is all-loving and all-powerful, could He allow man the autonomy to sin? Christ’s life and work held out the possibility of redemption, but left man the freedom not only to doubt but to cause unspeakable suffering. Man has not been equal to that responsibility. “For nothing has ever been more insufferable for man and for human society than freedom,” the cardinal tells Christ. “Turmoil, confusion, and unhappiness—these are the present lot of mankind, after you suffered so much for their freedom!” In the Grand Inquisitor’s indictment, he pits Christ’s offer of redemption against the church’s promise of security:

With us everyone will be happy, and they will no longer rebel or destroy each other, as in your freedom, everywhere. Oh, we shall convince them that they will only become free when they resign their freedom to us, and submit to us. Will we be right, do you think, or will we be lying? They themselves will be convinced that we are right, for they will remember to what horrors of slavery and confusion your freedom led them.

The cardinal’s argument reappears in a strikingly similar confrontation in Brave New World. When John the Savage sours on the wonders of the World State, he foments a riot among the Deltas and is brought before Mustapha Mond, the Resident World Controller for Western Europe. In the thematic climax of the novel, Mond defends his spiritually arid civilization by recalling the terrible history that preceded it. Love, literature, liberty, and even science itself are sacrificed in this most scientific of societies—all to serve the goals of happiness and stability. “Happiness,” Mond says, “is a hard master—particularly other people’s happiness. A much harder master, if one isn’t conditioned to accept it unquestioningly, than truth.” To achieve lasting social happiness, all else must be given up.

Each of these interrogations lays bare the fundamental compromise at the heart of that society. Both interlocutors avow a struggle, many years ago, to give up what is now at stake—faith for the Grand Inquisitor, truth for the World Controller—to “serve” the weak, debased, tormented human race, whose happiness depends upon the satisfaction of material wants and absolute submission to authority. “Only now,” says the cardinal, “has it become possible to think for the first time about human happiness. Man was made a rebel; can rebels be happy? ... No science will give them bread as long as they remain free, but in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet.” “Truth’s a menace,” says Mond, and “science is a public danger.... Universal happiness keeps the wheels steadily turning. Truth and beauty can’t.” Against the ever-greater misery that appears to be the price of personal autonomy, both pose the question: Is man worth his humanity?"
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
Next time you are in Safeway or Costco or any big chain store they use your signal to see where you run around and what products you stop at or the area to help in their research for better marketing. They know the stuff that does not get the attention they do not resupply.

Base 104 great post not only that but the ones now doing the contracting that scares me.

Koch industries
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Spoken like a real spook:

Of one thing I am certain...we cannot allow personnel that have taken secrecy oaths to make up their own rules about what information can or should be divulged.

Unless, of course, you have a conscious and know right from wrong. It is brave the people who stand up to their task masters and expose their wrong-doings. Especially in the face of grave punishment as a result.

And I've seen stories about when folks take the internal Whistleblower route, the 9/11 Commission Report is full of such stories.


I know some of you might disagree, but frankly, there are things of which you just have no need to know. You might like to know, or wish you knew, but that's just not the way we work, and for the most part, you've all survived quite well not knowing the details.


Reminds me of a point in the film The Pentagon Papers where they guy says [paraphrased] "Most people in the US don't want to know how they got it, they just want to wake up and have it."

But then again, as Werner points out, we Americans are a bit numb in the brain.


I cannot/will NOT speak for Prism or NSA. I will tell you that NSA takes their responsibility under USSID 18 very seriously.

You cannot be serious, USSID 18 prohibits the collection of data on US citizenry, without an explicit court order. Or am I missing something?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
A nation of sheep

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/majority-views-nsa-phone-tracking-as-acceptable-anti-terror-tactic/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
Joe, you? Are you really having trouble comprehending? Here, I'm putting in bold the important phrase:

NSA's United States Signals Intelligence Directive 18 (USSID 18) strictly prohibits the interception or collection of information about "... U.S. persons, entities, corporations or organizations...." without explicit written legal permission


Now, isn't this all about the collection of information?


If not, do please tell me what the fuss is about.



And you want me to dig up real-life stories about folks who try to take the internal whistle-blower route, only to see their efforts 86'd (and themselves terminated)? Give me a couple of minutes...
WBraun

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
They can do anything they want.

No they can't.

Only if you are stupid .......
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
When the first high-quality color printers came on the market the Treasury Dept made Xerox and others put a secret serial number in the firmware that create a microscopic 'brand' on any document printed with those printers. Any document could be traced back to the printer from whence it came.

I wonder if anyone has ever had success using a color printer to make money, literally.

I don't think that the tags were for spying on all citizens, they were to thwart potential counterfeiters. Or maybe Not??!?!?!

Is is true that tasers leave confetti that has a serial number on it or was that just a dumb movie gimmick?

Dave

P.S. and why isn't "taser" in my spell checker?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Ah Joe, you got me.

Right now, many high-powered lawyers are making huge amounts of money, tax-payer financed, trying to resolve this very issue. Just how much data does the law allow NSA to collect and where does it draw the line on US citizens?

From what I heard from the talking heads on the radio, it's going to be a bit before they twist the laws to say "Yep, we gave the NSA unspeakable powers to do whatever the f*#k they want."

But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.

To twist it any other way is just academic. You want the story to be written a certain way, they got authors by the dozen who will write it up that way. And now, theyhave to write it up that way, their hands are forced. But you know, and I know, it ain't supposed to be that way.
SalNichols

Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
K-man, you might not like the legal permission, but it is indeed there. Your congressperson has email, write them and bitch about changing the law. I can assure you, NOTHING is done without an appropriate warrant.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:26pm PT
Sal, are you saying that they have a court order to collect data on all US citizens? There is an order is that broad?

I will need to see in writing where the law says it's OK to collect data on all US citizens. And, like I said above, I was listening to some very well informed speakers on the radio, and they too were waiting for a description of how the law that passed could have been interpreted as such.

So, if anybody has the statute that gives the NSA broad authority to capture data on all citizens, post up and make me look the fool.
AndyO

Social climber
Brooklyn, NY
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:30pm PT
FWIW, a guy I know was bootlegging transit passes in Europe using the printer at his job. When someone was caught with a stack of them, the cops read the microscopic serial number in the prints and tracked it back to his employer. He had already left that job, but forget about that future reference...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
Bush eventually got warrants and never went on a full nation fishing expedition.

Let's be excruciatingly clear, W's crew didn't give a wit about the Constitution or Bill of Rights - again and again their conduct was both criminal and treasonous and they only had Aschroft/Gonzales/Yoo/republicans in congress cover their asses after the fact when word started to get out about their activities. All the activities being discussed in the media are authorized by and given cover by various Bush-era laws.

And look, after 9/11 it became painfully clear that war can be waged in ways our military can't protect us from. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out 9/11 was nothing compared to a terrorist attack with a small nuke. So that sad day the dead serious question became: how to stop a terrorist nuke attack?

And that remains the question to this day. What's clear now is that some folks came up with at least the idea of an answer: that likely perpetrators of any such attack in today's world are likely to have a digital footprint. Given that threat, in combination with the various authorization and congressional funding, our nation has clearly embarked on a digital 'Manhattan project' in an attempt to prevent such attacks.

And that project doesn't just involve phones and the internet. Our coasts / shipping lanes have rings of radiation detectors and satellite monitoring for ships which might attempt to leave those lanes. Containers leaving ports are scanned. Our subways are monitored for radiation as witnessed a few months back when a subway was halted and nuke-response team flooded in to the tunnels and pin-pointed a passenger undergoing a radiation-involved medical procedure which triggered their alarms. And you can bet your ass all airport luggage is being scanned as well.

But again being clear, Obama hasn't done this, the Bush crew were the architects of this approach, they set all this in motion, gave it cover, and Congress has been funding it all along under the auspices of the intelligence committees. What Obama has done is signed the appropriations that keep it going. And you can bet any president, a Ron Paul even, would have signed those appropriation bills because guess what? No president wants another 9/11 or worse happening on their watch and have anyone say they didn't do enough to try and prevent it.

But make no mistake, the blueprint for this surveillance build out was in-place a decade ago or the data centers we see up and running it today wouldn't exist - those data centers were planned, designed, paid for by W's crew. The continued build out and implementation does not need any more presidential involvement beyond signing appropriation bills and having the Justice department provide some minimal oversight. And that oversight is also minimal by design and by law.

Hey, it's a f*#king brave new world out there and all your digital toys aren't innocent - they don't just enable your next free latte and your porn habit. They vastly and equally enable the expression of malevolent intent and can be used to coordinate a devastating nuclear attack on one of our cities. What's that you say? You want both your privacy and and protection from a terrorist nuke attack? I'd say, ok, and would you like the Easter Bunny with that as well? Because make no mistake about it Bucko, the reason this is happening is because our military is useless against some of the most serious and likely threats against our nation.

And unfortunately, capturing 60% of the datastream 100% of the time or 100% of the datastream 60% of the time just isn't going to cut it relative to even hoping to 'get lucky' in stopping such an attack. It's more of an all or nothing deal and it's taken a decade just to build out part of the ultimate data collection foundation; it will probably take another decade of to get the analysis and auto-monitoring in place. Hell, we only just learned to do it and that took the invention of Google and Facebook and other social enterprises which had to step up to the 'big data' plate.

You can't really have it both ways - social privacy and protection from a terrorist nuke attack - something has to give and the president you elected before this one made the call on how it was going to go and the build out began. The idea that this president has been much more involved than signing the continuing appropriation bills for it is ludicrous. If he came out publicly and told us all about the program and said he was terminating it then republicans would claim he's leaving us defenseless in the same way they've claimed closing Gitmo would.

The framers of the Constitution didn't and couldn't have conceived of your iPhone; our rapidly evolving digital existence and the threats it enables represents a radical, cross-cultural, trans-national realignment of human reality on all fronts and we will all have to adjust and make painful trade offs. In the end, and all digital narcissism aside, the Internet isn't just for you, the front camera on your phone isn't essential, and all this sh#t could kill you without a single Chinese paratrooper dropping in on your front lawn.

And it isn't a problem you can solve by squeezing the government's access to money or cutting it's budget; this is viewed a strategic requirement for our national defense. And its part of an opening, evolving and continuous cyber-warfare where we are way, way behind the friggin' curve compared to China (we taught it to them). Cut the budget and they'll just shift funds to keep the funding levels for this steady as it's again viewed as critical to our national defense and in many very real ways, is.

Look, I'm all for the Constitution, hate the government, don't like paying taxes, but this, this sh#t is part of a new world which has never existed before and is evolving faster than any technology shift in human history. Really hard choices are going to have to be made as there's no going back to your imaginary white, digital-free, nuclear-family world that really didn't exist in the 50's outside of peoples imaginations. What's it gonna be...? Privacy or protection, because you can't have both and that's what this is all about.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
So at this point, since we know the NSA collects our data, we knowingly provide that data to a third party. I see.

But what about before the leak? Our phone conversations were not knowingly provided to third parties.

If I txt my bookie, only he and I are supposed to know about that conversation. That is, until The Guardian came around and told me otherwise.

Still looking ...
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
Wonder now if there will a run on these bags. Sh&t still waiting for guns and ammo to be on the selves. Not that I need them for the moment.



Smart [not that smart] cell phone on top of bag with signal ATT and the bars.


back of bag




As in the picture now you see it and now in the bag you don't. or they can not pick up the signal but still can do the work.

For 100% protection you would put the cell phone bag in the large laptop
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
they're all bad,some just worse than others
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
Privacy or protection, because you can't have both and that's what this is all about.

Nice writeup healyje. Indeed, the day after 9-11, our Gov't was wrestling with the problem of having an enemy that was not a state (or state sponsored).


Carry your phone, take pictures with it. It does a great job of documenting your life, where you've been and where you're likely to go. That's the new digital age we live in, and you can love it or leave it.

My problem is that the carrot is "you want the evidence to be a mushroom cloud?" Although the stick is, "I see you went to that peace riot. Who did you talk to when you were there. And oh, sorry about the pepper spray stain on your tee shirt..."

Dissident is now a terrorist activity. And they can hold you without charge, indefinitely.


That's the mushroom cloud I fear.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
HP printers will give the US access to ones printer if looking for children's porno.

Reagan with Meese when he was Gov of CA used undisclosed places that NSA would collect on political activists. Everyone in Santa Monica that had anything to do with anti war movement finally figured it out since they were not getting any monthly bills. 3-4 months after NSA had to figure a better way to hide their tracks. They did.

That was the old days, now they contract the companies [thousands] that provide the service the Gov needs.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
Laying this at the feet of President Bush is somewhat ridiculous. This one is the Corp. Machine at work, the CEO is irrelevant.

Total bullsh#t. Once charted, funded, and underway the CEO is somewhat irrelevant; but all of this was wholly enabled by the laws authorizing it and those laws are and were entirely owned by BushCo. This is again, why giving - or in the case of BushCo, allowing the Executive to take - more power is perilous business. That crew fostered and leveraged a climate of fear in the wake of 9/11 to do a lot of unsavory, explicitly illegal, and outright treasonous things and this is just another one of those 'things' started illegally and given legal cover after the fact - it's how that crew did business and what kept John Yoo employed.

And hey, it was just part of the neocon's big opportunity to restore the fantasy of a god-given right to white male world supremacy so it was a-ok. How's that worked out so far...?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:20pm PT
Barry Dunham debates Barrack Obama



[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.

hardly

the program was started under the Patriot Act in response to 9/11

congress continues to vote to reauthorize it

all Bush and Obama did was simply sign it into law

as they should do because there would have to be a very good reason for a President to veto a bill that both houses of congress voted on and passed

wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
Healy is correct,give me an idea ,What could Obama have done?

Not a GD thing.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
You're right. Obama has to do things exactly as Bush would. He has no choice in the matter.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.

Yeah, well the American people, Congress, and the UN were all both under- and mis-informed about a lot of things by BushCo. Now you can claim Jim Sensenbrenner (R. Wi - Patriot Act 'author') and Congress didn't understand the 'charter' (and that's probably why they picked him to introduce the bill), but you can bet your ass it's all authorized and they are not 'overstepping' their charter.

If anything, they are probably behind-the-curve in implementing their charter. As I said, for things to be already built out to the level they are means that charter was explicitly to embark on a 'Manhattan Project'-like push to build out this capability as a strategic element of the defense of the nation. No 'over-stepping' involved, if anything, they're under-stepping the project goals and explicit intent.

Again, if someone sails a nuke-in-a-container into Long Beach, SF or NY Harbor and sets if off in the port you folks are all going to be asking if we were trying hard enough to stop it. I'd personally say they're trying pretty hard and folks just don't like the reality of what that takes and means.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
what is your point, Chaz?


should Obama have vetoed the bill just so he would not be the same as Bush on that issue?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
You should all know by now who the Koch Brothers are:

David baby of Koch Industries' contributions have gone toward achieving legislation one particular defense appropriation. You want to know what it is. Where most of the funding gone to?

Ron I believe you brought up the subject months ago while being on a climb and something to do with a hilo and I responded and you agreed.

2015 FBI will be using the system mostly in the big cities but can still [providing they are interested in you or anyone they want to] can do it anywhere. You or someone overseas CIA takes over.

Maybe Snowden already knows this and believes it is wrong. Think I brought up the subject a while back with the TV show: Person of Interest and what the US will look like in the future[not the story line].

Plus he would know about the plans that we are downsizing our defense to make it more efficient by using more Special Forces units and the Pentagon being used less and the CIA will use rouge contractors like Eric Prince [Blackwater fame] R2 to do the dirty work with low paying a dollar a day mercs from countries in that area ME and using drones made in S. Africa.
All paid by the US taxpayer.

So maybe the more he tells in the following months the more the discussion about why he did it comes to light.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.

The president has no authority to stop the program without going to Congress, revealing the scope of its existence and goals, and explicitly asking Congress to shut it down. What are the odds any president would do that once one of them puts the wheels in motion? Zip, nada, none.

The political reality is just as you say: Obama couldn't help it and that's because BushCo both designed it all that way and because what exactly do you propose we do to protect the nation from a terrorist nuke attack in its place (no, there isn't an iPhone app for that).
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:38pm PT

You are correct he had to please the Republicans, same reason he has not closed Guantanamo Bay like he said he would.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
Exactly,Healy
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
The Supreme Court ruled that police officers can take DNA samples without a warrant from people they arrest for serious crimes without violating the Fourth Amendment attention

Last part June 02 13 PBS Evening news

GWEN IFILL: Not whenever you're stopped. So, if you're pulled over by the side of the road and under suspicion of having done something, they can't swab you at the side of the road; you have to be under arrest, in custody?

MARCIA COYLE: Well, if you are arrested or if you are stopped by police on the road, the police can do a search incident to an arrest, or they can -- if they have probable cause to believe that you have committed a crime, they are usually required to get a warrant. But they also can search if they are concerned that their safety is at risk.

Think there will be any abuse of safety?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be.

Allowing the surveillance program to proceed had nothing to do with 'pleasing' republicans and everything to do with the choice of having to explicitly and publicly exposing it and asking Congress to shut it down with no clear alternative to present for our national defense.

So 'pleasing'? Please...

And again, what do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack which is a million times more likely than a Chinese paratrooper landing in LA?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
lostinshanghai, don't even mention the new law in NY.

But I digress ...
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
"He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be."



Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
What do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack ...


Obviously a tough, but valid, question. Personally, I'm of the notion that a bully is hated by more folks on the playground than he is adored.

Imagine the cost of the Afghan war. The untold destruction, civilian lives lost, and emotional scars left on the country. Take the same money spent on bombs, and pour that into the infrastructure of the country. Schools for girls and women, upgraded agriculture infrastructure, etc, etc. Beleive it or not, trillion$ can actually still buy things these days, especially in third-world countries.

Now this might not rid us of the threat of Afghan Taliban. But I'll tell ya, the folks that gained by those schools and infrastructure would sure be on our side. And that goes a long way in the Afghan countryside.

Can you imagine the difference in the world if we did the same to Iraq, instead of bombing it back to the stone age?

I know, I'm high. But we'd better soon realize that any war on this planet is a civil war, and as michael so nicely pointed out above, there's bigger fish to fry than silly wars between ego-filled hawks.

Terrorists with bombs? They are sponsored by states who want to war with us, more than likely due to our ongoing foreign policy of imperialism.

Drones in Yemen anybody?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.

wrong

President Obama soon after inauguration signed an Executive Order to close GITMO, as he said he would do.

Congress refused to allow it to be closed.

If you recall, maybe not, there was a big debate in the Senate about where exactly to transfer the GITMO detainees. The Republicans were screaming those guys were SUCH a threat that they could not be held safely in non-military run prisons.

But really, what exactly do YOU care so much about those guys in GITMO anyway?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
A Conservative friend asked the other day,knowing i am a liberal socialist,"When are you going to own it?Economy,security,etc. etc.,When is not going to be Bush's fault"?


You probably know what i said.

Good question?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
on come on

the US economy went into RECESSION in November of 2007

we were losing millions and millions of jobs

the stock market lost 50% of its value, trillions of dollars of Americans savings destroyed

compare that to now for christ's sake

"own the economy now" ...damn right,

god people have short memories of the utter economic destruction under Bush
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
President Obama, for a fact, authorized and continued this program. Ergo, Bush II.

How, in fact, has Obama authorized this program? He has only "continued" the program by signing continuing appropriate bills for it.

And yet again, your alternative for defense against terrorist attacks? And as I've been saying it's simply one leg of a national defense strategy aimed at stopping terrorist attacks.

The basic problem here is that the program was shrouded in secrecy from the beginning - again, by BushCo, just like rendition, torture, and parallel sham 'intelligence' [manufacturing] organizations, etc. The programs should have been upfront and public explaining the national security goals, but then that would have also required acknowledging that our military - with it's uber-bloated budget, can't really protect use from the most viable threats.

In ten years time you're cell phones may monitor and automatically report radiation, earthquakes, chemical leaks, auto crashes and gunshots in urban areas. Welcome to the digital world.

Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

Given the very real threat, the only open question relative to Obama is what could he reasonably be or have been expected to do about it other than sign the continuing budget resolutions? I suspect you'd have quietly done exactly the same thing.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
let us be correct in that Obama not only approved the newly redrafted patriot act, but added greatly to it in language and scope.

A completely and utterly false claim. Obama signed the 'PATRIOT Sunsets Extension Act of 2011' which extends three existing provisions of the Patriot Act for four years: roving wiretaps, searches of business records, and conducting surveillance of "lone wolves". All three provisions were extended, but with new restrictions and congressional oversight placed on those powers.

So in fact, the truth is entirely the opposite of your claim.

The Gov. printing money to cover bad mortgage debt...

As opposed to the Gov. printing money to cover not one, but two, unnecessary pre-emptive wars...

Oh and Obama isn't my hero - I'm from Chicago and know better, I voted for Hillary...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:09pm PT
Norton ,that is what i replied.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
Why aren't the Republicans screaming for hell or you do not hear anything from McSain. Would it be anything to do with funds from the Koch brothers in the last election that they wasted by trying to defeat our current Pres.

And the answer to is the Koch brothers who have funded and is heavily invested in Facial Recognition Technology software and everthing that includes for making a good shot: skin tone, eyes, ears, nose, teeth and making sure new photos on getting your current or new auto license: no smiles.

So support Congress Corp. What can we do without them.

So color your hair a different color until they find out and need to upgrade their software.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
The Koch brothers make toilet paper (Georgia Pacific),

Carpet and Lycra (INVISTA),

Petroleum products (Flint Hill)

Fertilizer (Koch Fertilizer LLC),

Beef (Matador Land and Cattle)

and own a pipeline.

Get the tinfoil off your head.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:45pm PT
Coz, that's true. I read an article about how home buyers are now competing against the banks to buy homes. And this is how I predicted it--the housing crisis would cause untold foreclosures, and then the banks [or the elite] can swoop in to buy up the real estate for a fraction of what was previously on the books.

Buying with cash? You can bet that ain't the "middle class" doing the buying.

But it's true, the stock market has hit all-time highs. What percentage of US folk have a rich portfolio nowa-days, when the top 0.1% earn half of all capital gains?

Wow, this subject seems to cover many things...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 11, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
No.

Answer to the question posed by the US national anthem.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
good going wilber!

it's pretty damn easy to prove how god awful ignorant they are, isn't it?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
Get the tinfoil off your head.

Get your head out of your ass.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
Dingus, I know you're a real middle-of-the-roader, everyone-is-to-blame, enough-fault-to-go-around sort of guy, but this is BushCo's baby lock-stock-and-barrel and say what you will, there wouldn't be a gleaming surveillance palace in Utah up and running if it weren't.

here you say its bushco's fault. while bush certainly started it, when will obama take the responsibility for anything?


Given the very real threat, the only open question relative to Obama is what could he reasonably be or have been expected to do about it other than sign the continuing budget resolutions? I suspect you'd have quietly done exactly the same thing.

here you justify why obama had to keep it going, you argue that its the best decision.

so WTF is it? is it that obama actually decided it is alright (hell he justified it on tv), or is it still bushco's fault.

some people are so f*#king flawed in their logic that it blows my mind. you are as deluded as any hard core teabagger...f*#king amazing.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
"the current housing market is in no way indicative of a thriving economy."


Try building houses for a living and not believe that.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
he is not hedge, you are. obama owns this now so why the f*#k does healy try and blame bush?

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 11, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
norton,

pull your head out of your ass. i said that healyje by his own post blames bush.......then turns around and says that the NSA is doing the right thing anyway.

you f*#kers need some remedial reading comprehension. but that does explain why you believe everything obama spoon feeds you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 11, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Barry Dunham debates Barrack Obama



[Click to View YouTube Video]

Barry can speak for himself.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 12:49am PT
pull your head out of your ass. i said that healyje by his own post blames bush.......then turns around and says that the NSA is doing the right thing anyway

I'm not saying "the NSA is doing the right thing", what I am saying is the threat of a terrorist nuke attack on one of our major ports is a very real and present threat. I am saying that this evolving digital world is highly complex. I am saying BushCo made the call that this was going to be our response and a major pillar of our national defense going forward. I am saying Obama has had zero power to stop it other than by refusing to sign the intelligence appropriation bills and telling the American people that he's simply stopping it with no viable alternative strategy to deal with the threat. If he did that you would be all on his case for leaving America defenseless.

Crikey, you clowns are always up in arms about 'border security' - this is all about 'securing the [digital] borders' or are you really that dense?

Again, Obama didn't authorize these programs, but neither he nor any other president is going to de-fund them without having some remote inkling of what we would do instead. Again, what are you suggesting is the alternative? Blind faith? A wink and a nod?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:06am PT
http://enews.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20130611/abc54ab2-03f0-4e1e-bb7a-2937989fdedf

Congress briefed on US surveillance programs

By LARA JAKES
From Associated Press
June 11, 2013 11:43 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — Dogged by fear and confusion about sweeping spy programs, intelligence officials sought to convince House lawmakers in an unusual briefing Tuesday that the government's years-long collection of phone records and Internet usage is necessary for protecting Americans — and does not trample on their privacy rights.

But the country's main civil liberties organization wasn't buying it, filing the most significant lawsuit against the massive phone record collection program so far. The American Civil Liberties Union and its New York chapter sued the federal government Tuesday in New York, asking a court to demand that the Obama administration end the program and purge the records it has collected.

The ACLU is claiming standing as a customer of Verizon, which was identified last week as the phone company the government had ordered to turn over daily records of calls made by all its customers.

The parade of FBI and intelligence officials who briefed the entire House on Tuesday was the latest attempt to soothe outrage over National Security Agency programs which collect billions of Americans' phone and Internet records. Since they were revealed last week, the programs have spurred distrust in the Obama administration from across the globe.

Several key lawmakers, including House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, refocused the furor Tuesday on the elusive 29-year-old former intelligence contractor who is claiming responsibility for revealing the surveillance programs to two newspapers. Boehner joined others in calling Edward Snowden a "traitor."

But attempts to defend the NSA systems by a leading Republican senator who supports them highlighted how confusingly intricate the programs are — even to the lawmakers who follow the issue closely.

Explaining the programs to reporters, Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a member of the Senate Armed Services and Judiciary committees, initially described how the NSA uses pattern analysis of millions of phone calls from the United States, even if those numbers have no known connection to terrorism. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has vigorously maintained that there are strict limits on the programs to prevent intruding on Americans' privacy, and senior officials quickly denied Graham's description.

Graham later said he misspoke and that Clapper was right: The phone records are only accessed if there is a known connection to terrorism.

House lawmakers had more questions and, in many cases, more concerns about the level of surveillance by U.S. intelligence agencies Tuesday after FBI, Justice and other intelligence officials briefed them on the two NSA programs.

"Really it's a debate between public safety, how far we go with public safety and protecting us from terrorist attacks versus how far we go on the other side," said Rep. C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger of Maryland, top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. "Congress needs to debate this issue."

He said his panel and the Judiciary Committee would examine what has happened and see whether there are recommendations for the future.

Rep. Brad Sherman, D-Calif., like many members, said he was unaware of the scope of the data collection.

"I did not know 1 billion records a day were coming under the control of the federal executive branch," Sherman said.

Rep. Steve Cohen, D-Tenn., said there was a lot of heated discussion and that, "Congress didn't feel like they were informed."

Cohen conceded many lawmakers had failed to attend classified briefings in previous years where they could have learned more. "I think Congress has really found itself a little bit asleep at the wheel," he said.

One of the Senate's staunchest critics of the surveillance programs put Clapper in the crosshairs, accusing him of not being truthful in March when he asked during a Senate hearing whether the NSA collects any data on millions of Americans. Clapper said it did not. Officials generally do not discuss classified information in public settings, reserving discussion on top-secret programs for closed sessions with lawmakers where they will not be revealed to adversaries.

Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., said he had been dissatisfied with the NSA's answers to his questions and had given Clapper a day's advance notice prior to the hearing to prepare an answer. Not fully believing Clapper's public denial of the program, Wyden said he asked Clapper privately afterward whether he wanted to stick with a firm 'no' to the question.

On Tuesday, Wyden revealed his efforts to get Clapper to tell him about the program and called for hearings to discuss the programs. He was also among a group of senators who introduced legislation to force the government to declassify opinions of a secret court that authorizes the surveillance.

"The American people have the right to expect straight answers from the intelligence leadership to the questions asked by their representatives," Wyden said.

Clapper's spokesman did not comment on Wyden's statement. But in an interview with NBC News earlier this week, Clapper said he "responded in what I thought was the most truthful or least most untruthful manner, by saying, 'No,'" because the program was classified.

The Senate Intelligence Committee will be briefed on the programs again Thursday.

Congressional leaders and intelligence committee members have been routinely briefed about the spy programs, officials said, and Capitol Hill has at least twice renewed laws approving them. But the disclosure of their sheer scope stunned some lawmakers, shocked foreign allies from nations with strict privacy protections and emboldened civil liberties advocates who long have accused the government of being too invasive in the name of national security.

On the heels of new polls showing a majority of Americans support some aspects of the spy programs, lawmakers defended the daily surveillance of billions of phone and Internet records that they said have helped make the U.S. safer in the years after the 9/11 attacks. A poll by The Washington Post and the Pew Research Center conducted over the weekend found Americans generally prioritize the government's need to investigate terrorist threats over the need to protect personal privacy.

But a CBS News poll conducted June 9-10 showed that while most approve of government collection of phone records of Americans suspected of terrorist activity and Internet activities of foreigners, a majority disapproved of federal agencies collecting the phone records of ordinary Americans. Thirty percent agreed with the government's assessment that the revelation of the programs would hurt the U.S.' ability to prevent future terrorist attacks, while 57 percent said it would have no impact.

Instead, ire focused on Snowden, the CIA employee-turned-NSA contractor who admitted in an online interview that he exposed the programs in an attempt to safeguard American privacy rights from government snooping.

"He's a traitor," Boehner said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

"The disclosure of this information puts Americans at risk," Boehner said. "It shows our adversaries what our capabilities are. And it's a giant violation of the law."

His comments echoed a growing chorus in Congress condemning Snowden's actions.

"This is treason," Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., said late Monday.

Senate Intelligence Committee Chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., also chimed in Monday, calling the disclosure "an act of treason," and that Snowden should be prosecuted.

Only one American — fugitive al-Qaida propaganda chief Adam Gadahn — has been charged with treason since the World War II era. A law enforcement official said prosecutors were building a case against Snowden on Tuesday and had not decided what charges would be brought against him.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because there is no final decision on the charges. But it's unlikely that Snowden would be charged with treason, which carries the death penalty as a punishment, and therefore could complicate extradition from foreign countries.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:45am PT
from the net

"The 54 words of the Fourth Amendment are remarkably clear: “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

Seem pretty clear to me. The constitution has be shat on by Bush and Obama both

Shame!

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:30am PT
Well, if you are one of those constitutional literalist like Scalia and a lot of conservatives and libertarians then what the NSA is surveilling aren't 'papers' but rather bytes of aether.
Dropline

Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:08am PT
Well, if you are one of those constitutional literalist like a Scalia and a lot of conservatives and libertarians then what the NSA is surveilling aren't 'papers' but rather bytes of aether.

Those bytes of aether would be "and effects".
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:35am PT
Unhinged, and Dr F will never get their tummy tats removed.


splitter

Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:35am PT
hey, here is a freaky thing that happened to me just a couple months ago. i listen to a lot of youtube music vids. one evening i had either just clicked on some vid, or was trying to get the lyrics to a vid/song and my computor totally froze up. this notice appeared and locked the computor onto it. it said it was from the FBI and that they were fining me for downloading unauthorized music or something or other. they wanted $250 wihtin so many hours. i figured it was some sort of virus/scam as soon as i saw that. i crashed my computer and reloaded it. anyway, i found out it was just that (a scam). the "freaky" thing about it, though, was that they had taken my picture (through my own webcam which i never use). and posted it with the notice. it was taken just seconds before my computer locked up. my point is, if they can do that, what could the real fbi do? yikes!!!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:40am PT
"...particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

They didn't do that. They just siezed everybody's everything.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:52am PT
What commie countries did he run to?
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 12, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
Get free 3 month trial app from SEECRYPT.COM (after $3 a mo) that will hide all calling metadata from snooping alphabet soup g-men.

Receive and make calls from an iPhone with double encrypted one time use keys
and prevent anyone from ever knowing to who or the number dialed.

Even your service provider will not know you ever made a call. Just some data bits are used and look as if you used data without any id or a persons phone number.


http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/06/new-app-claims-to-prevent-government-eavesdropping-on-cell-phones/

https://www.facebook.com/Seecrypt
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
The government stealing everyone's data but saying its ok because
they have not looked at it yet, is like bank robbers claiming its ok
because they have not had time to spend all the money yet.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Being in agreement with coz is scary. Being in agreement with coz and karlbaba at the same time?

That's a Game 7 3-pointer, nawmean?

These are, indeed, strange times, DMT. I've found myself not only agreeing with, but bolstering the arguments of Norton and Joe Hedge the last few days.

I think you've put it well, though, about the ridiculously partisan posts we've seen on this issue (e.g. [choose one] [_] Bush bad/ Obama good or [_] Bush good/ Obama bad).

John
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Splitter, look at this FBI warning about the virus that attacked you.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2012/august/new-internet-scam
dirtbag

climber
Jun 12, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
I'm not sure who I agree with. I see both sides. I do think Obama has some ownership of this.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Here's what he told the NY Times:
“People who think I made a mistake in picking Hong Kong as a location misunderstand my intentions,” he told the newspaper, The South China Morning Post. “I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality.”

Translation: "Oh crap, me and my sorry-assed high school education didn't do a great job in planning my next move. Well I don't want to admit I did a boneheaded move by coming to HK, I'll just try to play it cool . . ."
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
Hong Kong's overlords in Beijing are never going to let Hong Kong extradite Snowden to the U.S.

Look at CNN's top headline now on cnn.com:

"NSA leaker says U.S. hacks China"
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
The real question is why he didn't take his girlfriend to Hong Kong with him.

Are pics like these even allowed on the Taco now?

Or is Snowden's girlfriend "Too Hot for the Taco(R)"?

We report. You decide!





[youtube=http://youtu.be/RRaPeBC-NSs]



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 12, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
I wonder if NSA will outsource? I bet the Chinese can do it cheaper!

Actually, DMT, the NSA did outsource. They just may not have imported the outsourced product (i.e., they purported to use domestic companies.) Snowden was an employee of an outsourcee.

John
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
One sentence story

interesting timing

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cia-deputy-director-michael-morell-resigns
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
A. I think the current state of partisanship of politics is poisonous. President Bush bad, President Obama good - naive. In many ways they are indistinguishable, and this topic is certainly one of them. Big brother is big brother regardless of party affiliation. Fascists can come from either extreme of the political spectrum.

Again, complete claptrap and if you're now subscribing to Jonah Goldberg's obscene nonsense I'm somewhat at a loss for words.

B. I do not believe for a second about the 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'. Not for a second. Would the Al Gore administration or the Kerry administration have agreed to build it? YES.

I didn't say, 'no BushCo, no NSA cell phone spying'; I did say that in the wake of 9/11, and understanding it could have been much worse, BushCo made a call to put a 'Manhattan Project'-scale digital communications surveillance and radiation monitoring program into place. What we're debating today is exactly that.

Would Gore or Kerry have built it? Gore no, Kerry probably yes. Gore certainly would have had a much more public exploration of the issue and any implementation.

Coz, my nuke terrorist scenario is simply the most realistic and likely way anyone is going to make a nuke attack against us in the future. We, the Russians, Europeans, China, India and Pakistan built hundreds of container-capable artillery nukes not to mention 'suitcase' and mortar nukes.



And my speculation on that front is entirely validated by the occasional news stories about cargo vessel interdictions, the recent Chicago TSA VIPR team stopping a Metro train (not subway) after a radiation alert, the development of radiation monitoring bouys, and monitoring container straddle carriers.

Not to mention DHS publicly-stated goals of 100% container ship / container inspection coverage and cargo airlines public resistance to 100% coverage of air cargo tells you DHS is in a full-court monitoring press that is the radiation monitoring element of a strategic program of which Prism likely represents the comm element of.
dave goodwin

climber
carson city, nv
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:13pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcKVgWYkZa4

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Russians, Europeans, China, India and Pakistan built hundreds of container-capable artillery nukes not to mention 'suitcase' and mortar nukes.

So what does that have to do with monitoring EVERY domestic phone call?

(As far as I'm concerned international communications traffic is fair game)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
For TGT and Dave.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_analysis

Traffic analysis

Traffic analysis is the process of intercepting and examining messages in order to deduce information from patterns in communication. It can be performed even when the messages are encrypted and cannot be decrypted. In general, the greater the number of messages observed, or even intercepted and stored, the more can be inferred from the traffic. Traffic analysis can be performed in the context of military intelligence or counter-intelligence, and is a concern in computer security.
dave729

Trad climber
Western America
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
Some serious sh*t is going on if he left a sweetie that that behind.

But life goes on. Perhaps the girlfriend will go to Yosemite and take up rock climbing? And needs some instruction...




Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Healyje,

A man-portable nuke can't just sit on a shelf for a period of time, and then be expected to go "bang" when the pin's pulled. If they're going to work, they require frequent and complicated maintanence, beyond the capacity of most governments - let alone a bunch of illiterate, Koran thumping cavemen.

These aren't AK's.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:49pm PT
Based on this article, it looks like mainly Democrats in Congress were the ones who questioned the surveillance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dana-milbank-edward-snowdens-nsa-leaks-are-the-backlash-of-too-much-secrecy/2013/06/10/eddb4462-d215-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?wprss=rss_dana-milbank

The Justice Department and the DNI promised a new effort to declassify opinions issued by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court; Justice official Lisa Monaco, now Obama’s counterterrorism director, said all significant FISA rulings would be reviewed for declassification. But no new opinions were declassified under the initiative.

The House last year turned back attempts to require public reports on the general outlines of the government’s surveillance programs. The various disclosure proposals, offered by Democratic Reps. Bobby Scott (Va.), Jerrold Nadler (N.Y.) and Sheila Jackson Lee (Tex.), were defeated by the Judiciary Committee.

In the Senate, amendments to provide modest disclosures and declassifications, offered by Wyden and fellow Democratic Sens. Jeff Merkley (Ore.) and Mark Udall (Colo.) during the FISA renewal in December, were all defeated.

The FISA court itself colluded in the secrecy. After senators asked the court to provide declassified summaries of its decisions, the chief FISA judge, Reggie B. Walton, responded with a letter on March 27 citing “serious obstacles” to the request.

“It was a shoddy performance all around,” Aftergood said Monday. “The pervasive secrecy on this topic created an information vacuum. If congressional oversight was not going to fill it in, it turned out leaks would. That’s not the optimal solution.”

----


Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) asked Clapper [ director of national intelligence ] at a Senate hearing in March, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

“No, sir,” Clapper testified.

“It does not?” Wyden pressed.

“Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly.”

We now know that Clapper was not telling the truth. The National Security Agency is quite wittingly collecting phone records of millions of Americans, and much more.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 12, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
I can't see how anyone would say the Clapper did not outright lie.

They ought to have him back before the committee in contempt of perjury charges
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
Holy Data Collection, Batman !!



Curt
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 12, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
For TGT and Dave.

Don't need a lecture on traffic analysis, I've been following its successes since the beginning and it's impressively effective.

There's no problem with using it for international communications as far as I'm concerned.

But here's the big rub when used domestically;

No government has ever refrained from abusing the power that it has been granted! That's what the Constitution is there to prevent. It's a limiting, not an empowering document, a characteristic that Obama has publicly complained about on several occasions.

What's to stop the administrative state from using it to say analyze the campaign traffic of the other party or grass roots political movements.

What if say Johnson had had it to crush the anti war movement, or a J. Edgar to pull the strings of every politician he encountered. (he did a good enough job without it)Or Clinton to punish the anti abortion movement.

There's a reason the fourth amendment is there and if we throw away our political freedom, the muzzies have won.

Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
Here's a conjecture about one use the metadata will be put to. It includes the source and destination phone of each call. A truly enormous, 300 million by 300 million node matrix will be constructed. If phone i sends to phone j then node (i,j) will be set to 1, otherwise 0. These are sometimes called connectivity or topology matrices. There are many theorems and algorithms associated with these. Djikstra has an algorithm for determing the shortest path between any two nodes.

This matrix will clearly be mostly zeros. There may be theories as to what a terrorist subnetwork will look like within this giant matrix.

Dont't infer from this that I support this data harvesting. I am strongly opposed.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 12, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
You have to connect a helluva lot of dots between a database with everyone's phone records and nuke being smuggled into the country.

You don't have to connect hardly any dots at all once you come to the conclusion whomever might attempt such an attack will likely have a digital footprint - and clearly BushCo came to that exact conclusion - and are building out for 100% coverage of domestic and US-foreign calls. Now that's not my (or Marine Corps Lt. General Paul K. Van Riper's) conclusion, but it was BuchCo's or we wouldn't be arguing the point now.

[ Jonah Goldberg is 'intellectual jujitsu' author of one of the new right's pillars of modern conservative 'thought': Liberal Fascism (his mother is Lucianne Goldberg, who 'advised' Linda Trip in the Lewinsky scandal) ]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:03am PT
I have no doubt at all that, should they be asked (and I'm sure they will be), SCOTUS justices will rule it's entirely legal to harvest call metadata under the Patriot Act's business records provision. That's why it was written the way that it was - transcripts of your calls? No. Telco metadata records (their business records) about your calls? Sure, no problem under the business records provision.

I understand it 'feels' wrong, illegal, and unconstitutional, but I very highly doubt that what with John Yoo having been involved with crafting it and especially since half the intent of the damn bill was to provide legal cover for this surveillance (I consider Yoo to be a real Mengele of the legal profession):

From a Frontline interview with John Yoo on 1/10/2007:

Frontline: And gathering intelligence then means gathering intelligence at home as well as abroad.

Yoo: I think that's right. Again, if you're going to gather intelligence and follow members of Al Qaeda outside the United States, you don't want to make the United States some kind of safe haven where once they cross the borders into our country it actually becomes harder to find them and track them down. That would be perverse; exactly the reverse kind of powers that you want our government to have when it's fighting especially this kind of enemy, which tries to infiltrate our borders and launch surprise attacks.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:07am PT
You are so full of sh#t Dr. F. The Dems had control of the House and the Senate for almost 2 years after Obama was elected.

Proof that Obama knows it is illegal and more promises he never intended to keep.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:19am PT
Bit of a side topic... sorry for posting the lengthy full text, but otherwise you have to subscribe:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/06/10/inside_the_nsa_s_ultra_secret_china_hacking_group?page=full

Wednesday,   June 12,   2013

Inside the NSA's Ultra-Secret China Hacking Group

Deep within the National Security Agency, an elite, rarely discussed team of hackers and spies is targeting America's enemies abroad.

BY MATTHEW M. AID | JUNE 10, 2013

This weekend, U.S. President Barack Obama sat down for a series of meetings with China's newly appointed leader, Xi Jinping. We know that the two leaders spoke at length about the topic du jour -- cyber-espionage -- a subject that has long frustrated officials in Washington and is now front and center with the revelations of sweeping U.S. data mining. The media has focused at length on China's aggressive attempts to electronically steal U.S. military and commercial secrets, but Xi pushed back at the "shirt-sleeves" summit, noting that China, too, was the recipient of cyber-espionage. But what Obama probably neglected to mention is that he has his own hacker army, and it has burrowed its way deep, deep into China's networks.

When the agenda for the meeting at the Sunnylands estate outside Palm Springs, California, was agreed to several months ago, both parties agreed that it would be a nice opportunity for President Xi, who assumed his post in March, to discuss a wide range of security and economic issues of concern to both countries. According to diplomatic sources, the issue of cybersecurity was not one of the key topics to be discussed at the summit. Sino-American economic relations, climate change, and the growing threat posed by North Korea were supposed to dominate the discussions.
Then, two weeks ago, White House officials leaked to the press that Obama intended to raise privately with Xi the highly contentious issue of China's widespread use of computer hacking to steal U.S. government, military, and commercial secrets. According to a Chinese diplomat in Washington who spoke in confidence, Beijing was furious about the sudden elevation of cybersecurity and Chinese espionage on the meeting's agenda. According to a diplomatic source in Washington, the Chinese government was even angrier that the White House leaked the new agenda item to the press before Washington bothered to tell Beijing about it.

So the Chinese began to hit back. Senior Chinese officials have publicly accused the U.S. government of hypocrisy and have alleged that Washington is also actively engaged in cyber-espionage. When the latest allegation of Chinese cyber-espionage was leveled in late May in a front-page Washington Post article, which alleged that hackers employed by the Chinese military had stolen the blueprints of over three dozen American weapons systems, the Chinese government's top Internet official, Huang Chengqing, shot back that Beijing possessed "mountains of data" showing that the United States has engaged in widespread hacking designed to steal Chinese government secrets. This weekend's revelations about the National Security Agency's PRISM and Verizon metadata collection from a 29-year-old former CIA undercover operative named Edward J. Snowden, who is now living in Hong Kong, only add fuel to Beijing's position.

But Washington never publicly responded to Huang's allegation, and nobody in the U.S. media seems to have bothered to ask the White House if there is a modicum of truth to the Chinese charges.

It turns out that the Chinese government's allegations are essentially correct. According to a number of confidential sources, a highly secretive unit of the National Security Agency (NSA), the U.S. government's huge electronic eavesdropping organization, called the Office of Tailored Access Operations, or TAO, has successfully penetrated Chinese computer and telecommunications systems for almost 15 years, generating some of the best and most reliable intelligence information about what is going on inside the People's Republic of China.

Hidden away inside the massive NSA headquarters complex at Fort Meade, Maryland, in a large suite of offices segregated from the rest of the agency, TAO is a mystery to many NSA employees. Relatively few NSA officials have complete access to information about TAO because of the extraordinary sensitivity of its operations, and it requires a special security clearance to gain access to the unit's work spaces inside the NSA operations complex. The door leading to its ultramodern operations center is protected by armed guards, an imposing steel door that can only be entered by entering the correct six-digit code into a keypad, and a retinal scanner to ensure that only those individuals specially cleared for access get through the door.

According to former NSA officials interviewed for this article, TAO's mission is simple. It collects intelligence information on foreign targets by surreptitiously hacking into their computers and telecommunications systems, cracking passwords, compromising the computer security systems protecting the targeted computer, stealing the data stored on computer hard drives, and then copying all the messages and data traffic passing within the targeted email and text-messaging systems. The technical term of art used by NSA to describe these operations is computer network exploitation (CNE).

TAO is also responsible for developing the information that would allow the United States to destroy or damage foreign computer and telecommunications systems with a cyberattack if so directed by the president. The organization responsible for conducting such a cyberattack is U.S. Cyber Command (Cybercom), whose headquarters is located at Fort Meade and whose chief is the director of the NSA, Gen. Keith Alexander.

Commanded since April of this year by Robert Joyce, who formerly was the deputy director of the NSA's Information Assurance Directorate (responsible for protecting the U.S. government's communications and computer systems), TAO, sources say, is now the largest and arguably the most important component of the NSA's huge Signal Intelligence (SIGINT) Directorate, consisting of over 1,000 military and civilian computer hackers, intelligence analysts, targeting specialists, computer hardware and software designers, and electrical engineers.

The sanctum sanctorum of TAO is its ultramodern operations center at Fort Meade called the Remote Operations Center (ROC), which is where the unit's 600 or so military and civilian computer hackers (they themselves CNE operators) work in rotating shifts 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
These operators spend their days (or nights) searching the ether for computers systems and supporting telecommunications networks being utilized by, for example, foreign terrorists to pass messages to their members or sympathizers. Once these computers have been identified and located, the computer hackers working in the ROC break into the targeted computer systems electronically using special software designed by TAO's own corps of software designers and engineers specifically for this purpose, download the contents of the computers' hard drives, and place software implants or other devices called "buggies" inside the computers' operating systems, which allows TAO intercept operators at Fort Meade to continuously monitor the email and/or text-messaging traffic coming in and out of the computers or hand-held devices.

TAO's work would not be possible without the team of gifted computer scientists and software engineers belonging to the Data Network Technologies Branch, who develop the sophisticated computer software that allows the unit's operators to perform their intelligence collection mission. A separate unit within TAO called the Telecommunications Network Technologies Branch (TNT) develops the techniques that allow TAO's hackers to covertly gain access to targeted computer systems and telecommunications networks without being detected. Meanwhile, TAO's Mission Infrastructure Technologies Branch develops and builds the sensitive computer and telecommunications monitoring hardware and support infrastructure that keeps the effort up and running.

TAO even has its own small clandestine intelligence-gathering unit called the Access Technologies Operations Branch, which includes personnel seconded by the CIA and the FBI, who perform what are described as "off-net operations," which is a polite way of saying that they arrange for CIA agents to surreptitiously plant eavesdropping devices on computers and/or telecommunications systems overseas so that TAO's hackers can remotely access them from Fort Meade.

It is important to note that TAO is not supposed to work against domestic targets in the United States or its possessions. This is the responsibility of the FBI, which is the sole U.S. intelligence agency chartered for domestic telecommunications surveillance. But in light of information about wider NSA snooping, one has to prudently be concerned about whether TAO is able to perform its mission of collecting foreign intelligence without accessing communications originating in or transiting through the United States.

Since its creation in 1997, TAO has garnered a reputation for producing some of the best intelligence available to the U.S. intelligence community not only about China, but also on foreign terrorist groups, espionage activities being conducted against the United States by foreign governments, ballistic missile and weapons of mass destruction developments around the globe, and the latest political, military, and economic developments around the globe.

According to a former NSA official, by 2007 TAO's 600 intercept operators were secretly tapping into thousands of foreign computer systems and accessing password-protected computer hard drives and emails of targets around the world. As detailed in my 2009 history of NSA, The Secret Sentry, this highly classified intercept program, known at the time as Stumpcursor, proved to be critically important during the U.S. Army's 2007 "surge" in Iraq, where it was credited with single-handedly identifying and locating over 100 Iraqi and al Qaeda insurgent cells in and around Baghdad. That same year, sources report that TAO was given an award for producing particularly important intelligence information about whether Iran was trying to build an atomic bomb.

By the time Obama became president of the United States in January 2009, TAO had become something akin to the wunderkind of the U.S. intelligence community. "It's become an industry unto itself," a former NSA official said of TAO at the time. "They go places and get things that nobody else in the IC [intelligence community] can."

Given the nature and extraordinary political sensitivity of its work, it will come as no surprise that TAO has always been, and remains, extraordinarily publicity shy. Everything about TAO is classified top secret codeword, even within the hypersecretive NSA. Its name has appeared in print only a few times over the past decade, and the handful of reporters who have dared inquire about it have been politely but very firmly warned by senior U.S. intelligence officials not to describe its work for fear that it might compromise its ongoing efforts. According to a senior U.S. defense official who is familiar with TAO's work, "The agency believes that the less people know about them [TAO] the better."

The word among NSA officials is that if you want to get promoted or recognized, get a transfer to TAO as soon as you can. The current head of the NSA's SIGINT Directorate, Teresa Shea, 54, got her current job in large part because of the work she did as chief of TAO in the years after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, when the unit earned plaudits for its ability to collect extremely hard-to-come-by information during the latter part of George W. Bush's administration. We do not know what the information was, but sources suggest that it must have been pretty important to propel Shea to her position today. But according to a recently retired NSA official, TAO "is the place to be right now."

There's no question that TAO has continued to grow in size and importance since Obama took office in 2009, which is indicative of its outsized role. In recent years, TAO's collection operations have expanded from Fort Meade to some of the agency's most important listening posts in the United States. There are now mini-TAO units operating at the huge NSA SIGINT intercept and processing centers at NSA Hawaii at Wahiawa on the island of Oahu; NSA Georgia at Fort Gordon, Georgia; and NSA Texas at the Medina Annex outside San Antonio, Texas; and within the huge NSA listening post at Buckley Air Force Base outside Denver.

The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities. The "mountains of data" statement by China's top Internet official, Huang Chengqing, is clearly an implied threat by Beijing to release this data. Thus it is unlikely that President Obama pressed President Xi too hard at the Sunnydale summit on the question of China's cyber-espionage activities. As any high-stakes poker player knows, you can only press your luck so far when the guy on the other side of the table knows what cards you have in your hand.

Matthew M. Aid is the author of Intel Wars: The Secret History of the Fight Against Terror and The Secret Sentry: The Untold History of the National Security Agency, and is co-editor with Cees Wiebes of Secrets of Signals Intelligence During the Cold War and Beyond.

FOREIGN POLICY is published by the FP Group, a division of The Washington Post Company 
All contents ©2013 The Foreign Policy Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
MisterE

Social climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:27am PT
War is at Home - you knew it was inevitable.

Turnkey Tyranny is so hot right now.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:26am PT
Are you Ungoogleable? It is the newest cool.
Found the below from an unknown blogger with rather scary sop.


I'll let you all in on a little secret that makes defeating Google
(and everyone else) easy.

Lie.

To everyone.

The phone company, the utility company, your landlord, the bank,
everyone. Do it consistently. Give each one of these data tracking
nitwits a different name, address, contact phone (none of them need be
real, except perhaps for the bank, if you use one, have that mail sent to
you out of state). Make ups SSN for those the "demand" it. Pay your
deposits and forget about it. Lie to the DMV about where you live when
you get your license (if you bother with one, I don't). Same goes with
your insurance company. I don't plan on filing a claim anyway - why
should I? So I can pay a higher premium? (yes, I have insurance, it's
to protect the other guy, not me).


Lie to your neighbors (you may need to move). Lie to your "friends". If
they're really your friends, they won't care what your real name is
anyway.
\

Unpublished phone number? That only puts your name on a list. If you
don't want hassling phone calls, don't give out your phone number. Lie
when forced to reveal what is not in your best interest.


Lying needs to become a part of your defense. Your government lies to you
constantly, about everything. We are under no moral or ethical
obligations to cooperate with them on any level.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:38am PT
Turnkey Tyranny is so hot right now.

Lots of jobs, that's for sure, though not really in climbing hot spots:

http://www.clearancejobs.com/careers/6654/booz-allen-hamilton-careers
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:09am PT
This shows what an a$$clown Freidman has become:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/friedman-blowing-a-whistle.html?src=me&ref=general

WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:18am PT
You would be surprised what is really going on.

Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.

You are all running blind as bats on this whole fiasco.

But that's nothing new at all here .....
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:24am PT
Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.


Now that we are not at war? Since when?
Check out this link.
http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx

This is no comment on the NSA at all. Merely a comment on your assertion that we're not at war anymore.

patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Ronster,

Snowden and m anning are true patriots, and history will remember them as such. You really think foudning fathers wanted the gov't up your a$$?

Snowden is in China for free-speech asylum from the US. You can't see the sad irony in this?!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
I love it when people say what the founding fathers would have done if they
lived today. I wish I could afford a crystal ball.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 13, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

DMT

Exactly, this "We are at war forever" BS is just an excuse to expand power and do whatever they want.

And it turns out Google IS evil. If you have Chrome or some google software on your computer, and try to block it from sending out information on you, the little app keeps reinstalling it in other places on your computer to get around the restrictions, just like malware. They suck.

Peace

karl
beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
It's all Mimi's fault, she works for the NSA and just wants to check out my hot action now that she's all button down with that knuckle dragger Stevie Whatshisname.
beefcake of wide

climber
Nederland/GulfBreeze
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
Oh and here's a time line for all the folks that haven't been paying attention.

Timeline of NSA Domestic Spying


michael feldman

Mountain climber
millburn, nj
Jun 13, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
If Snowden is a whistleblower trying to protect innocent Americans, why is he also telling everyone that the US is spying on China? Is that to protect Americans? Can someone explain how using your security clearance to reveal our government's (alleged) spying activities against another country (a country which clearly hacks into our computers on a daily basis) is protecting innocent Americans? Can it really be argued that it is coincidence that he reveals this information about China while he is hiding in Hong Kong and asking the Chinese and Hong Kong governments to NOT extradite him. Is this really any different than outright treason by someone who gives classified information to a foreign country and then asks that country for protection? What would people say if Snowden also told Iran about the spying we are doing on them, and then bought a one-way ticket to Tehran? Would people still be calling him a hero?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:01pm PT
Some of the reasons why the story was told: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-profile

"For an American, the traditional home for the kind of story Snowden was planning to reveal would have been the New York Times. But during extensive interviews last week with a Guardian team, he recalled how dismayed he had been to discover the Times had a great scoop in election year 2004 – that the Bush administration, post 9/11, allowed the NSA to snoop on US citizens without warrants – but had sat on it for a year before publishing.

Snowden said this was a turning point for him, confirming his belief that traditional media outlets could not be trusted. He looked around for alternative journalists, those who were both anti-establishment and at home with blogging and other social media. The member of this generation that he most trusted was the Guardian commentator Glenn Greenwald. "

"In what were to be the last words of the interview, he (Snowden) quoted Benjamin Franklin: "Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.""
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Jun 13, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder

Ron, do you have a source for this? Can you show any evidence that this took place?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Norton,

Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.

John
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China........BUT you DONT give our secrets away to the opposite side.

Ron, I'm curious about why you think Snowden gave away secrets to China? I haven't seen anything in the press stating that. Sure he's saying the US has been hacking China, but that's not exactly a secret.

The link I pasted last night gives far more detail as to how the NSA is spying in China, and its published by the Washington Post, with info pre-Snowden. It states, "The problem is that TAO has become so large and produces so much valuable intelligence information that it has become virtually impossible to hide it anymore. The Chinese government is certainly aware of TAO's activities."

All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."

That's a very broad statement, without much detail. That the NSA "hack(s) network backbones" should come as no surprise to anyone who pays attention to what the NSA is all about.

I would like to hear a lot more technical details from Snowden about NSA data collection within the US. That concerns me a lot more than what the NSA is doing in China.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
Worth a repeat:

the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 13, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
Ron stated:
In fact he sold that stolen intel to China.. He ran right to them. He didnt run to Oprah, or Barbra Walters


Ron, are you making stuff up again?

you know, that old "if I can think it in my head, then it must be true" stuff?

there just is no reason to not go with what is known to be true, why make stuff up Ron?

people call you out constantly but you just keep rolling along, never ever learning from it

ok, let's do it again

show your source, Ron, prove it

show some links where YOU got this information that he SOLD intelligence to CHINA

why do you keeping doing this sh!t, Ron?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Ron's sources? Here they are...

Its the Gubmint, Damnit!
By: Ron Anderson
BSP
2012

Know-It-All From Moundhouse
By: Ron Anderson
Retarded Press
2008

My Sonar Says So
By: Ron Anderson
ImmaIdiot
2005

Sources? More Like Sauced
By: Ron Anderson
IG Fool
2003
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
...for telling China specifically how we spy on them...

What are the "specifics" Ron, and how do you know this?

edit - links, etc. will be appreciated. not all of us are able to "channel" this information from the cosmos....
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Have been watching some interesting video interviews with former NSA technical director, William Binney. He was with the NSA for 36 years and resigned in 2001, when he decided the level of NSA monitoring within the USA was breaking the constitution. He also complained of billions of dollars (of our money) being spent on system after system, with little oversight.

From Apr. 12, 2012 in NYC - http://archive.org/details/LauraPoitrasPresentsASurveillanceTeach-inWithJacobAppelbaumBill

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out

http://www.whistleblower.org/program-areas/homeland-security-a-human-rights/surveillance/nsa-whistleblowers-bill-binney-a-j-kirk-wiebe
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
Yeah, let's look for jihadis everywhere except where they are.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/061213-659753-all-intrusive-obama-terror-dragnet-excludes-mosques.htm
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
Do you have access to an industrial-strength drum of BS neutralizer? This thread needs it badly.

Now this couldn't be more spot on...

Joe says we need this NSA surveillance since we now live in a different world of terrorism. Bush got away with a lot using emergency war powers as an excuse. Now that we are not at war, that excuse is not constitutional.

No, I didn't say that. I said if you believe a terrorist nuke attack is likely to have a digital footprint then it's pretty hard to argue against the strategic radiation and communications monitoring decision taken by BushCo for our national defense going forward. Certainly not without proffering a viable alternative or justifying why none is required.

But as I keep saying, it is a different world and our digital toys are two-edge swords which can be used against us. They've certainly remade the face of asymmetric warfare and remoted-IED's are responsible for the majority of our losses, injuries, and long-term costs of the current wars. They do the same on the terrorist front (played a big role in the Mumbai attack for instance).

They're part of an NSA spy ring dedicated to spying on Americans.

Huh, on what f*#king planet is that? They are a commercial entity that has been compelled by the government - under the powers vested by the Patriot Act's business records provision - to comply with orders to allow access to their clickstream and analyses.

I mean, that's what Google is, its what that company does...quibble as to commercial vs. government, the apparatus of google is built to spy on people, simple as that, built from the ground up for that specific purpose, to sell the data. So they sold some to the government - this is a surprise?

No, that's not what google is. They do sell data to advertisers. they did not sell any data to the government. I expect a little more precision from someone who does what you do for a living.

Not one person here has hit on the real facts yet.

Again, on what planet? Oh, that's right, planet Vedas where all the answers are carved in stone reliefs and pre-ordained.

Snowden sold out to CHINA.

Ron, dude, at this point I'm pretty sure one of the US cartel gangs has a low-dose LSD drip hooked up to your water supply. Man, if you keep reading one crank, nutjob blog and website after another you are going to be even more completely lost and drama-queened out then you already are. You're definitely getting crowned the reigning ST political Queen.

The United States is not at war, not constitutionally. Congress declined to exercise its duty in the matter.

This is also spot on and that's really been the case since Nixon and why the War Powers Resolution was enacted over Nixon's veto. The WPR wasn't the best response to those abuses and has caused no shortage of problems of it's own. I've laid out my own thoughts here on what 'war powers' the president should have and what would have to happen for the US to actually engage in any significant military conflict.

What is Iran the boogeyman? Of COURSE the US is spying on Iran and China, hacking away at their systems even as they try to hack away at ours.

This is another example of the Internet forever changing the face of societies and 'war'. There are national, extra-national, commercial, military, criminal, and individual entities engaged in digital piracy of any and all forms you can think of. Until we redesign computing and networking down to the chip level for secure and verifiable systems and messaging (more security at a high price) all nations, corporations, and individuals will be in a continual state of cyber warfare. Unlike the drug war, this one is very, very real.

The fact he ran to China, however, does suggest treason, agreed.

I'd think someone who's traveled as much as you would realize that, even after going back to the Chinese, Hong Kong is still a great place to make connections. I can't say I would have announced there, but this is another case of the Internet really shrinking the planet and options for someone in Snowden's position. I mean, even Lesotho, Lichtenstein and Tonga all have extradition treaties with the US. Jumping from HK to the Maldives would have been an option, but once in the Maldives you're pretty much not going anywhere else and are permanently in a goldfish bowl.

It is a complete mistake to think the government is only looking at metadata. They are looking at much more than that.

They are looking at the metadata without warrants under Patriot Act authorization. If they see a pattern in the data they don't like you can bet they issue a warrant for the associated content and I suspect those warrants cover large buckets of data, not thimblefuls.

the fisa courts were created to prevent exactly what the fisa courts are now doing

That is not the case. It may feel that way in 'spirit', but that is not an accurate characterization of either the warranting or the oversight.

Regardless, a traitor is someone that steals intel then SELLS it to the competition. Manning and this latest jerk did exactly that. They didnt just volunteer it up for the good of man,, noooo they had an auction and gave it to the highest bidder.

Ron. See above post and, please, get back on your meds - for the children if no one else.

All I've seen is Snowden merely saying, “We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one."

The world's main fiber trunks are definitely all surveilled and, really, if you tap sea cable landing sites in Hawaii, NYC, LA, FL, Seattle, England and anywhere on the Africa One cable and you pretty much have it all.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
They are not part of anyone's 'spy ring' except their own.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
We'll have to agree to disagree on that characterization.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
Google didn't know your porn preferences either, at first. It's part of the big data learning curve of the last 10-15 years. That uncertainty is also why communications monitoring is paired with expanding radiation monitoring coverage. The question isn't do they know everything or can in fact detect such an attack, but rather should they try. It's actually a pretty stark choice - there is no 'sort of try' when it comes to this sort of thing - it's either do or don't. And if the answer is don't, then that decision is not necessarily without serious consequences of its own.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
LOL



June 11, 2013

The Honorable Darrell Issa
Chairman, House Committee on Government Reform & Oversight
2157 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515

Chairman Issa:

Thank you for your ongoing efforts to investigate abuses of civil liberties by employees of the Internal Revenue Service.

These abuses seem to indicate a larger, higher pattern of ideologically-driven harassment of Americans which Congress has an obligation to fully investigate with every tool at our disposal.

Frankly I am disappointed by revelations Obama administration personnel have been less than forward about what they knew and when they knew it.

As you know, recent revelations show the National Security Agency has been keeping an “ongoing, daily” log of every domestic phone call in the United States.

I respectfully request your Committee subpoena the records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel.

If President Obama is collecting such information, he certainly would want us to use it. If he has nothing to hide he has nothing to be afraid of.

Warmest wishes,



STEVE STOCKMAN
Member of Congress
WBraun

climber
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:44pm PT
The govts. manufactures terrorists.

The govts. supplies the terrorists with what they need to terrorize.

Then the govt. creates fear mongers like healyje to create the infrastructures to keep him safe from their own terrorists which they control.

Stooopid Americans can't for the life of them understand a simple thing.

Instead they buy all the garbage that's spoon fed to them daily ......
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
Yer too dense to recognize satire even when it slaps you upside the head.


Stockman requests subpoena of NSA’s White House, IRS phone logs
Jun 11, 2013
Press Release
‘If Obama has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,’ says Stockman

WASHINGTON – Congressman Steve Stockman (R-Texas 36) Tuesday asked the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee to subpoena all National Security Agency records of phone calls between employees of the White House and the Internal Revenue Service.

Stockman’s office hand delivered a letter Tuesday afternoon to the Committee’s office requesting a subpoena “of all records of every phone call made from all public and private telephones of all IRS personnel to all public and private telephones of all White House personnel” collected under the NSA’s recently-revealed PRISM program.

“Obama assures the public he only collected this information to uncover wrongdoing and protect civil liberties. Clearly he would want us to use it to investigate this case, because otherwise he’d be lying,” said Stockman.

“If Obama has nothing to hide he has nothing to fear,” said Stockman.

“This case must be investigated fully, given admitted wrongdoing by the IRS, its potentially criminal implications and revelations the White House has been less than honest about what they knew and when,” said Stockman. “Obama says the PRISM program is perfectly legal, so there should be no problem whatsoever in providing the information on White House and IRS phone calls.”

“The only possible scenario in which the administration refuses to comply would be if it would reveal unconstitutional or illegal behavior,” said Stockman.

Stockman’s office also electronically delivered the same letter to the Homeland Security Committee chaired by Rep. Michael McCaul. The text of the letter follows:
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:02pm PT
And Benghazi was about arming these pleasant folks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/06/11/report-syrian-rebels-executed-a-14-year-old-boy-for-insulting-islam/

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 13, 2013 - 09:35pm PT
Ah, Werner, the place just wouldn't be the same without you.

All I can hope is that, as a member of an elite government action team, you're not out there manufacturing rescues
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 13, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/05/ancient-us-weapon-in-syria/

Then M40s somehow came into the hands of rebels in Libya and Syria. Suddenly, the 106mm – light, cheap, easily transportable, simple to operate, and packing a punch all out of proportion to its modest size — has emerged as a possible Great Asymmetric Weapon of the Day.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 14, 2013 - 02:50am PT
Daniel Ellsberg's point of view:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america

"In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.

Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought over 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the US constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that unconstitutionally sweeping warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, almost totally deferential to executive requests. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp.""
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:34am PT
I found the following video to be extremely helpful in understanding both the importance of the NSA leak and the government's legal position.

This 25 minutes is very well worth the time:

Link: Edward Snowden and the NSA Leaks: A Debate With Chris Hedges & Law Scholar Geoffrey Stone

You might know Hedges, but Stone is a highly credentialed law professor and he certainly knows is stuff. He is able to define, without defending, the laws that come into play, as well as how civil liberties are involved. No matter what side of the fence you find yourself on, you will learn something here.

One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

    Martin Luther King
Letter from Brimingham Jail
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:40am PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/06/14/cbs-news-confirms-multiple-breaches-of-sharyl-attkissons-computer/
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
Here's a nice summary, from Amy Goodman, of what Snowden did:

Snowden’s historic leak revealed what he calls an “architecture of oppression”—a series of top-secret surveillance programs that go far beyond what has been publicly known to date. The first was an order from the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court requesting a division of the phone giant Verizon to hand over “all call detail records” for calls from the U.S. to locations abroad, or all calls within the U.S., including local calls. In other words, metadata for every phone call that Verizon Business Network Services processed was to be delivered to the NSA on a daily basis. Another document was a slide presentation revealing a program dubbed “PRISM,” which allegedly empowers NSA snoops access to all the private data stored by Internet giants like Microsoft, AOL, Skype, Google, Apple and Facebook, including email, video chats, photos, files transfers and more.

Snowden released Presidential Policy Directive 20—a top-secret memo from President Barack Obama directing U.S. intelligence agencies to draw up a list of targets for U.S. cyberattacks. Finally came proof of the program called “Boundless Informant,” which creates a global “heat map” detailing the source countries of the 97 billion intercepted electronic records collected by the NSA in the month of March 2013. Among the top targets were Iran, Pakistan, Egypt and Jordan. The leaked map color-codes countries: red for “hot,” then yellow and green. Last March, the U.S. was yellow, providing the NSA with close to 2.9 billion intercepts.
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
rSin - well said, but you cannot be the rSin because rSin is consistently
clueless.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 14, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
Now they are saying this dude is possibly a spy for China.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/annals-of-the-security-state-more-airplane-stories/276018/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Highly doubtful.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
http://kieranhealy.org/blog/archives/2013/06/09/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/

London, 1772.

I have been asked by my superiors to give a brief demonstration of the surprising effectiveness of even the simplest techniques of the new-fangled Social Networke Analysis in the pursuit of those who would seek to undermine the liberty enjoyed by His Majesty’s subjects. This is in connection with the discussion of the role of “metadata” in certain recent events and the assurances of various respectable parties that the government was merely “sifting through this so-called metadata” and that the “information acquired does not include the content of any communications”. I will show how we can use this “metadata” to find key persons involved in terrorist groups operating within the Colonies at the present time. I shall also endeavour to show how these methods work in what might be called a relational manner.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:00pm PT
Get the feeling the president has lost his grip on the rudder of government?

Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws without a care would be your first indication he isn't at the helm.

But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
as i was BLASTED just yesterday by many here to "prove" hes been paid or "sold" the intel. OF COURSE HE DID! ;=)

of course you were invited to prove that he sold intell to China

your statement was not a "prediction", it was said as a fact as if it already happened

you could provide no proof, zero

because it was never, ever, reported in any credible press release

you flat made it up


and NOW, just because Dr F decides to pull out of his ass the idea that if COULD be POSSIBLE, you jump on it like that is some kind of PROOF

don't get all excited because somebody agrees with you Ron, a blind squirrel finds an acorn from time to time

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.

And they are directing the ship of state exactly to the reef where he, as a disciple of Cloward and Piven have planed to wreck it from the beginning.

abrams

Sport climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Oh man! Beer almost spilled reading this. Spot on!




Get the feeling the president has lost his grip on the rudder of government?

Probably because his agencies are floundering aimlessly and breaking laws without a care would be your first indication he isn't at the helm.

But then you'll quip he's not needed to steer the ship of state anyway.
He has assistants that can do it for him.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
Benghazi!





oh wait...that really wasn't a scandal.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
Here's what's happened so far as a result of Snowden's leaks:

Link: Leaks are vital
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 14, 2013 - 10:47pm PT
nice post k-man

edit:democracy can be ugly
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
Petition to: Pardon Edward Snowden

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
http://victorygirlsblog.com/?p=12000

Why has the government kept this unilateral surveillance of USA citizens secret and private?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:55pm PT
I thought you're for freedom, Ron. You want us to have the panopticon, worse than China?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 14, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
http://politicker.com/2013/06/janet-napolitano-denies-existence-of-orwellian-state/
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:17am PT
Even the most brain dead jihadi (or progressive) would know you can walk into your nearest Wallmart, Riteaid, or CVS and pay for a burner phone with Benjamins.

No problem.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Actually the war between Europe and Asia goes back to about 700 BC or so.

A guy named Herodotus wrote a book about it once.
WBraun

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:31am PT
Except that's how they found Bin Laden


They found nobody.

Stupid Americans ate the bullsh!t again ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
We didn't know until recently that all USA citizens unilaterally have been spied on for several years and the data stored. Why not inform us that the entire USA population is being spied on? Why the secrecy? What does keeping it secret alter?

Because you have misstated it. Americans were not being spied on. The program only served to preserve the records. Nothing else. Nobody looked at anything.

To access the data, you had to have a SECOND court order.

If you came up with a possible phone number, you had to have a THIRD court order to find out who the number belonged to.

If you wanted to tap that phone you needed a FOURTH court order.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:41am PT
They found Bin Laden with a DNA sample from his kids, taken by a doctor that Barry Sorreto is still letting rot in a Pakistani jail.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:43am PT
Because you have misstated it. Americans were not being spied on. The program only served to preserve the records. Nothing else. Nobody looked at anything.

Tell that to Sharyl Attkisson.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 12:45am PT
Because you have misstated it. Americans were not being spied on. The program only served to preserve the records. Nothing else. Nobody looked at anything.

To access the data, you had to have a SECOND court order.

If you came up with a possible phone number, you had to have a THIRD court order to find out who the number belonged to.

If you wanted to tap that phone you needed a FOURTH court order.

Ken M, its too late to work for the Bush administration.

Americans ARE having all their data recorded.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 01:03am PT
It went down like this Unhinged.

1. They water boarded Zawahhiri until he gave up the name of the courier

2. The courier led them to the compound

3. The doctor's DNA samples confirmed he was in the compound.

The samples you reference were the ones used to do the match.

Care to make a fool of yourself some more?

Why hasn't your prince Barry, Obama, Soretto, Dunham, Obama, not lifted a finger to get the doctor out of a Paki prison?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
At your telco and ISP. Logging happens as your call or email transits, metadata harvesting likely happens either near real-time as streaming data or in relatively short intervals as, with this amount of data, you really can't afford to get behind.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
Govt has to scrape all your phone calls and emails because govt forgot to enforce immigration law on 20 expired visas in 2001.


And all that SIGINT hasn't helped a bit with finding 11 million other illegals.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
No one's been trying to find 99.9% of those other overstayed or illegal entrants because most are employed illegally by republican owned/managed companies.

Otherwise we would have matched entrances with exits and harshly penalized illegal employers long, long ago.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
What does it take to qualify for a high level position on Barry's security team.

Meet the new #2 at the CIA

Haines was 24 years old, she dropped out of a graduate program in physics at John Hopkins University and opened a waterfront bookstore in Baltimore. The store “turned into the regular meeting place of a small group of erotica aficionados,” where Haines held a monthly erotica reading.

Haines would set the mood for the readings. For example, in preparation for one session, “she placed red candles throughout her store,” then “got pulses racing” by reading the following:

“In the topmost bed chamber of the house (the prince) found her. He had stepped over sleeping chambermaids and valets, and, breathing the dust and damp of the place, he finally stood in the door of her sanctuary. And approaching her, he gave a soft gasp as he touched her cheek, and her teeth through her parted lips, and then her tender rounded eyelids.”

Haines has taken part in “virtually every senior-level meeting at the president’s National Security Council over the past two years.”

She has never worked in the intelligence agency in which she will soon hold the No. 2 role

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/highest_ranking_woman_nights_after_EdfXR6r5Fa5IcTebsL6qCI
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Jun 15, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
"Im not certain what he did or did wrong"

I think it is all part of the checks and balance's of an evolving Democracy.

What would you rather have ,silence?

Edit; Not.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:06pm PT

Guys, I don't know if you know this breaking news BUT:


The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls.

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."
If the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney who serves on the House Judiciary committee.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.
[/http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/15/1216500/-NSA-discloses-that-thousands-of-analysts-can-listen-to-domestic-phone-calls]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
What's the 'secret' room that the NSA has built inside various telecom companies? Are calls, emails, et al routed to the NSA's 'secret' operation's room before reaching their intended destination?

Lovegasoline, the Mark Klein documents (AT&T technician) show the use of optical splitters, that essentially "mirror" the data. One side goes off to the intended destination and the other side to the NSA's Naurus boxes. They supposedly don't use Naurus anymore, which filtered data more specifically...... instead they grab everything.

The Mark Klein docs, that Wired released in 2006, are not easy to find online... to my surprise, most have been redacted, even on the EFF site. They are still on the Wayback Machine here, though:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060616033934/http://blog.wired.com/27BStroke6/att_klein_wired.pdf

Might want to download a copy, in case certain pages disappear. This stuff is supposed to be "secret".
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
It was the wonderful "Patriot" Act, hurriedly pushed through congress in the wake of 9/11 that authorized these domestic "activities." Strange thing is.. none of the Senators or House members read ANY of this sh#t. It had been prepared long in advance, and sat waiting for the proper incident that would allow rapid passage.
WBraun

climber
Jun 15, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
none of the Senators or House members read ANY of this sh#t.

I told you all they're stupid Americans.

And you all stupidity voted for these morons all while you were warned ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
If they're currently using optical splitters, then that would imply they streaming whole content, not metadata, to NSA storage and analysis servers and generating their own metadata there (//as opposed to using the telco / ISP metadata//). If they were really persisting that content on NSA storage servers, it would seem odd they'd then have issue warrants for that same content from the likes of At&T, Microsoft, facebook, and google, even as a formality. The odds are better they generate their own medata data and discard the actual content stream after doing so.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
Panetta's resume

Leon Edward Panetta (born June 28, 1938) is an American politician, lawyer and professor. He served in the Barack Obama administration as Director of the Central Intelligence Agency from 2009 to 2011 and as Secretary of Defense from 2011 to 2013. An Italian-American Democrat, Panetta was a member of the United States House of Representatives from 1977 to 1993, served as Director of the Office of Management and Budget from 1993 to 1994 and as President Bill Clinton's Chief of Staff from 1994 to 1997. He is the founder of the Panetta Institute for Public Policy, served as Distinguished Scholar to Chancellor Charles B. Reed of the California State University System and professor of public policy at Santa Clara University.


Haines

Haines, 43, instead had a stint as an urban entrepreneur, running Adrian’s Book Café — named for her late mother — for several years between graduating from University of Chicago and moving on to law school at Georgetown. During those years, she served as president of the Fells Point Business Association, according to Baltimore Sun stories at the time, and was active in the neighborhood preservation society.

And then there were the times that Adrian’s welcomed patrons for the occasional readings of high-toned erotica over chicken tostadas,
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
healyje, the last Snowden PPT shows real-time cable taps and PRISM as independent, and that analysts rely on both.

from http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/06/snowden-powerpoint/#slideid-57990

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 15, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
Those are two distinct things. The top "UPSTREAM" graphic depicts what we discussed earlier - optical taps on some of the world's main optical fiber trunks. The lower would be access to telcos/ISPs/Social Media Cos metadata .

Taps on the main optical fiber trunks would be attempting to do packet analysis and generate metadata off of it in more or less real time. The NSA didn't and undoubtedly doesn't have the storage capacity to store the content off such trunks beyond some selective and highly-targeted packet streams - it's too much data and really they probably aren't capable of generating real-time metadata against the full trunk capacity either.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 16, 2013 - 01:26am PT
..The NSA didn't and undoubtedly doesn't have the storage capacity to store the content off such trunks beyond some selective and highly-targeted packet streams - it's too much data and really they probably aren't capable of generating real-time metadata against the full trunk capacity either.

healyje, here's an excerpt from Bill Binney, former NSA technical director, on capabilities of the new Utah Data Center, in Bluffdale, opening this September.

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out


AMY GOODMAN: Bill Binney, could you say a little more about Bluffdale, this site in Utah that’s being built right now? I don’t think most people are aware of it.

WILLIAM BINNEY: Well, what they’re putting together there in Bluffdale is a million-square-foot storage facility, of which only 100,000 is really going to have equipment to store data. But the rest of it, the peripherals, then are power generation, cooling and so on. So, but in there, there’s 100,000 square feet of storage capacity. And at current capabilities that are advertised on the web with Cleversafe.com, they can put 10 exabytes in about 200 feet—square feet of storage space in 21 racks. What that means is, when you divide that out, is you—that even at current capacity to store information, that’s five zettabytes that they can put in into Bluffdale. And if you—and my estimate of the data they would be collecting, which would include the targeted audio and perhaps all of the text in the world, that would be on the order of 20 terabytes a minute—or, yeah, 20 terabytes a minute. So if you figure out from that how much they could collect, it would be like 500 years of the world’s communications. But I only estimated a hundred, because really they want space for parallel processors to go at cryptanalysis and breaking codes. So—


more on Bluffdale. Note #6 Domestic Listening Posts.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 16, 2013 - 04:21am PT
kunlun_shan, sorry, I wasn't clear enough, they don't have the sufficient storage capacity local to the fiber optic trunk taps (or wherever an optical splitter would terminate) to capture the content; they probably don't have enough to even buffer sufficiently for packet analysis of the entire trunk in realtime.

And even if Bluffdale is using CleverSafe archive boxes (which they undoubtedly are given their board) with 1-TBS ingest boxes fronting them for say a 5-10 TBS combined facility ingest rate, you'd still have to get raw trunk data to it and that's pretty damn hard to do in the middle of Utah. Maybe if you built a Bluffdale at each of say a dozen submarine cable landing sites you could probably do it given those cables top out around 3.2 TBS last I saw. But you'd also have the issue of how fast you can do deep packet inspection / information extraction. And then there's doing high-level intelligence analysis that could even begin to keep up with a trunk's datastream - unlikely.

But, if the arrows on that chart and the size of the cooling systms on the Bluffdale schematic are to be believed, then Bluffdale looks rather more CPU than storage intensive and I'm guessing it's a high-level intelligence analytics [Hadoop] data center which all the other facilities are going to be forwarding pre-screened/processed data to.

Simultaneously, make massive changes to the Patriot Act to bring it more in line with the Constitution.

You'd need a Supreme Court without Roberts and Alito on it to do that and they were picked as supportive of expansive executive powers and young for a reason.

The people responsible for this spying should be brought to justice and/or impeached.

Well, they're not in office anymore and the ones who are have legal cover provided by the ones who aren't. Then again, John Yoo is at Berkeley and someone should 'get' him for his perverse interpretations of the constitution. But do you then disagree with this assertion of his which I posted a ways back and which likely underpins the 'logic' of the Patriot Act given he's one the principle authors?:

From a Frontline interview with John Yoo on 1/10/2007:

Frontline: And gathering intelligence then means gathering intelligence at home as well as abroad.

Yoo: I think that's right. Again, if you're going to gather intelligence and follow members of Al Qaeda outside the United States, you don't want to make the United States some kind of safe haven where once they cross the borders into our country it actually becomes harder to find them and track them down. That would be perverse; exactly the reverse kind of powers that you want our government to have when it's fighting especially this kind of enemy, which tries to infiltrate our borders and launch surprise attacks.

P.S. The commercial fiber corridor going by Bluffdale probably operates near capacity and that brings up an aspect of all this that doesn't get press as it's more technical in nature. But one can assume the NSA has leased a bunch dark fiber to connect their facilities and has probably embarked on a simultaneous network build out to go along with this as the leased fiber isn't going to cut it from security or capacity perspectives. The only real question is are they piggy-backing on the defense network build out or building their own - I would guess the latter given the defense network will be subject to relentless attacks and have inadequate security at best.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jun 16, 2013 - 05:34am PT
Great to see idiotic mainstream media get bitchslapped by Glenn Greenwald:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BJyp6_4P_6Y
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 16, 2013 - 09:19am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:07am PT
I don't have to listen to your phone calls to know what you're doing. If I know every single phone call you've made, I'm able to determine every single person you talked to - I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive. And the real question here is what do they do with this information that they collect that does not have anything to do with al Qaeda? And we're gonna trust the President and the Vice President of the United States to do the right thing? Don't count me in on that.

-- Joe Biden, May 2006
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:33am PT
Just as we thought, the NSA spies are listening to our phone calls without
warrants. They admitted to it at the closed door congressional oversite meeting.

Can elected Reps or Senators be charged with Holders bogus espionage rap
for leaking this stuff?



NSA spying flap extends to contents of U.S. phone calls

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:55am PT
The dude ditched his pole artist girlfriend and went to China with a Rubik's
Cube and we're supposed to take him seriously? Seriously?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 17, 2013 - 05:48am PT
I would.

Also, I have no doubt an NSA analyst has the capability to tap any phone or go after any text, voicemail, or email - doing so on their own, or a supervisor's authority, without either a valid warrant or an order that is somehow a constitutionally-rooted, legal expression of executive power would be highly problematic.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 11:48am PT
The false allegation that Snowden is a narcissist is baseless. It's a transparent attempt to shift the focus away from the extremely serious and existential issue now facing this nation to killing the messenger. It's a grasping at straws.

Snowden will go down in history as a patriot, more so than some of the criminals who have held the highest offices in the US.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
There's an interesting live chat going on right now between Snowden and journalist Glen Greenwald. Readers can submit questions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower#start-of-comments

"You can also follow along on Twitter using the hashtag #AskSnowden".
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 17, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
What we are witnessing is a huge amount of people who are in denial. In denial that our government is composed of criminals who hold the constitution in contempt.


Meh, the Constitution. It is nothing but a piece of paper.
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
the following are quotes from the twitter q + a, kunlun_shan linked up thread. snowden is a one man quotable quotes generator:

"It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people - and the realization that that Congress, specifically the Gang of Eight, wholly supported the lies that compelled me to act. Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed."

"Further, it's important to bear in mind I'm being called a traitor by men like former Vice President Dick Cheney. This is a man who gave us the warrantless wiretapping scheme as a kind of atrocity warm-up on the way to deceitfully engineering a conflict that has killed over 4,400 and maimed nearly 32,000 Americans, as well as leaving over 100,000 Iraqis dead. Being called a traitor by Dick Cheney is the highest honor you can give an American, and the more panicked talk we hear from people like him, Feinstein, and King, the better off we all are. If they had taught a class on how to be the kind of citizen Dick Cheney worries about, I would have finished high school."

"There can be no faith in government if our highest offices are excused from scrutiny - they should be setting the example of transparency."

"Initially I was very encouraged. Unfortunately, the mainstream media now seems far more interested in what I said when I was 17 or what my girlfriend looks like rather than, say, the largest program of suspicionless surveillance in human history."

"The US Person / foreigner distinction is not a reasonable substitute for individualized suspicion, and is only applied to improve support for the program. This is the precise reason that NSA provides Congress with a special immunity to its surveillance."

"First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it."

"Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people. And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless."

"More fundamentally, the "US Persons" protection in general is a distraction from the power and danger of this system. Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it's only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%. Our founders did not write that "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all US Persons are created equal.""

"Ask yourself: if I were a Chinese spy, why wouldn't I have flown directly into Beijing? I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 17, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
Snowdon is a courageous man and first and foremost a gift to the world. The whole tragic American spinning comedy is now trying to discredit him.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 17, 2013 - 05:23pm PT
I could be living in a palace petting a phoenix by now.


He is my hero, through and through.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 17, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 18, 2013 - 02:17am PT
So how do you get into the business of leaking embarrassing government crimes without getting your
door kicked in at 4am and dragged off to Gitmo?

How to Leak made simple. For the Government employee who wants to keep getting a pay check.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-17/whistleblowers-guide-secretly-tipping-press-turnkey-totalitarian-state




Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 18, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 18, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
Obama bristles at suggestion he's shifted on snooping
lol

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/17/politics/obama-nsa-interview/?sr=google_news&google_editors_picks=true

(CNN) -- Critics who have compared President Barack Obama's stance on government surveillance to that of hawkish former Vice President Dick Cheney are missing his insistence on proper systematic balances, Obama said in an interview that aired Monday.

Defending at length the recently revealed government programs that gather information about phone calls and Internet usage, Obama said his focus has always been on allowing information to be gathered while ensuring necessary oversight.

"Some people say, 'Well, you know, Obama was this raving liberal before. Now he's, you know, Dick Cheney.'" Obama told PBS' Charlie Rose. "Dick Cheney sometimes says, 'Yeah, you know? He took it all lock, stock, and barrel.' My concern has always been not that we shouldn't do intelligence gathering to prevent terrorism, but rather are we setting up a system of checks and balances?"

Cheney defends NSA, calls Obama's credibility 'nonexistent'








Snowden: Hong Kong easiest answer







Edward Snowden: Hide and seek







Is the NSA leaker a spy?







Apple discloses data request numbers
Obama's administration has faced a litany of questions since the disclosure of government programs that allow the National Security Agency to collect millions of records from U.S. telecommunications firms and Internet companies in the name of preventing terrorism. The source of the information, former CIA employee Edward Snowden, said he was moved to leak the top-secret documents because he felt the government was far overreaching its constitutional bounds in collecting the data.

But Obama argued in the interview on Monday that the system in place includes steps to prevent Americans' rights against unlawful search and seizure from being violated.

"What I can say unequivocally is that if you are a U.S. person, the NSA cannot listen to your telephone calls, and the NSA cannot target your e-mails," Obama said.

Snowden claims online Obama expanded 'abusive' security

"On this telephone program, you've got a federal court with independent federal judges overseeing the entire program," the president continued. "And you've got Congress overseeing the program, not just the intelligence committee and not just the judiciary committee, but all of Congress had available to it before the last reauthorization exactly how this program works."

Some members of Congress, including Senate Intelligence Committee members Jay Rockefeller and Susan Collins, have questioned the notion they were given proper briefings on the NSA's program, however, and many lawmakers have said they first learned of the programs when they were revealed in news reports two weeks ago.

CNN poll: Obama numbers plunge into generation gap

**Asked in the interview whether the NSA's process should be more open, Obama said, "It is transparent. That's why we set up the FISA court."

That body, however, operates in secret, and its locations are considered classified. It has approved the vast majority of the requests it has received for warrants, though those orders are also kept secret.**

An administration official said Monday that Obama had asked his intelligence chief James Clapper to determine whether additional information about the data collection programs can be made public, part of what the official described as a "broader effort the president is undertaking to have a dialogue on protecting privacy in the digital age."

The swirling debate is grist for a "national conversation" about privacy and national security, Obama said.

"Not only about these two programs, but also the general problem of data, big data sets, because this is not going to be restricted to government entities," he said.

see the bold stuff....how do you have a "transparent process" when it is classified? thats a new one.

WBraun

climber
Jun 18, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
CNN is the intelligent agencies MSM news front.

It's infiltrated completely by the intelligence agencies on what to report.

Nobody believes anything CNN says except idiots ......
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Jun 18, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
At least we have 100% security. Obama likes listening to my sexy time talk with the wife when I am away on business trips and I am OK with that lol
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 18, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Jun 18, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
Edward Snowden is a traitor to the United States and should be treated as such.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Edward Snowden is a traitor to the United States and should be treated as such.

Curious as to your opinion on Dick Cheney, W, Rumsfeld, and Libby.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
The dude ditched his pole artist girlfriend and went to China with a Rubik's Cube and we're supposed to take him seriously?

The Rubik's Cube is too funny. Reminds me of the DaVinci Code.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Question:

Given the enormity of what you are facing now in terms of repercussions, can you describe the exact moment when you knew you absolutely were going to do this, no matter the fallout, and what it now feels like to be living in a post-revelation world? Or was it a series of moments that culminated in action? I think it might help other people contemplating becoming whistleblowers if they knew what the ah-ha moment was like. Again, thanks for your courage and heroism.

Snowden's answer:

I imagine everyone's experience is different, but for me, there was no single moment. It was seeing a continuing litany of lies from senior officials to Congress - and therefore the American people - and the realization that that Congress, specifically the Gang of Eight, wholly supported the lies that compelled me to act. Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy. The consent of the governed is not consent if it is not informed.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 19, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
Questions:

1) Why did you choose Hong Kong to go to and then tell them about US hacking on their research facilities and universities?
2) How many sets of the documents you disclosed did you make, and how many different people have them? If anything happens to you, do they still exist?

Snowden's answer:

1) First, the US Government, just as they did with other whistleblowers, immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home, openly declaring me guilty of treason and that the disclosure of secret, criminal, and even unconstitutional acts is an unforgivable crime. That's not justice, and it would be foolish to volunteer yourself to it if you can do more good outside of prison than in it.

Second, let's be clear: I did not reveal any US operations against legitimate military targets. I pointed out where the NSA has hacked civilian infrastructure such as universities, hospitals, and private businesses because it is dangerous. These nakedly, aggressively criminal acts are wrong no matter the target. Not only that, when NSA makes a technical mistake during an exploitation operation, critical systems crash. Congress hasn't declared war on the countries - the majority of them are our allies - but without asking for public permission, NSA is running network operations against them that affect millions of innocent people. And for what? So we can have secret access to a computer in a country we're not even fighting? So we can potentially reveal a potential terrorist with the potential to kill fewer Americans than our own Police? No, the public needs to know the kinds of things a government does in its name, or the "consent of the governed" is meaningless.

2) All I can say right now is the US Government is not going to be able to cover this up by jailing or murdering me. Truth is coming, and it cannot be stopped.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 19, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Worth repeating, especially in the face of those who are saying Snowden is a traitor:


Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy.
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Jun 19, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
Where Uncle Sam Ought to Be Snooping

Let’s place private corporations with government contracts under surveillance — to make sure no one is getting rich off our tax dollars.

By Sam Pizzigati

Only 23 percent of Americans, says a new Reuters poll, consider former National Security Agency employee Edward Snowden a “traitor” for blowing the whistle on the federal government’s massive surveillance of the nation’s telecom system.

Booz Allen: leveraging the public purse for private gain.

Many Americans, the poll data suggest, clearly do find the idea of government agents snooping through their phone calls and emails a good bit unnerving.

But Americans have more on the surveillance front to worry about than overzealous government agents. Government personnel aren’t actually doing the snooping the 29-year-old Snowden revealed. NSA officials have contracted this snooping out — to private corporate contractors.

These surveillance contracts, in turn, are making contractor executives exceedingly rich. And none have profited personally more than the power suits who run Booz Allen Hamilton and the private equity Carlyle Group.

Whistle-blower Snowden did his snooping as a Booz Allen employee. Booz Allen, overall, has had tens of thousands of employees doing intelligence work for the federal government.

Booz Allen alumni also populate the highest echelons of America’s intelligence apparatus — and vice versa. The Obama administration’s top intelligence official, James Clapper, just happens to be a former Booz Allen exec. The George W. Bush intelligence chief, John McConnell, now serves as the Booz Allen vice chair.

All these revolving doors open up into enormously lucrative worlds. In their 2010 fiscal year, the top five Booz Allen execs together pocketed just under $20 million. They averaged 23 times what members of Congress take home.

In fiscal 2010, the top five Booz Allen execs took home just under $20 million.

But the real windfalls are flowing to top execs at the Carlyle Group, Booz Allen’s parent company since 2008. In 2011, Carlyle’s top three power suits shared a combined payday over $400 million.

More windfalls will be arriving soon. Carlyle paid $2.54 billion to buy up Booz Allen. Analysts are now expecting that Carlyle’s ultimate return on the acquisition will triple the private equity giant’s initial cash outlay.

What do all these mega millions have to do with the massive surveillance that Edward Snowden has so dramatically exposed? Washington power players, from the President on down, are insisting that this surveillance has one and only one purpose: keeping Americans safe from terrorism.

But who can put much faith in these earnest assurances when other motives — financial motives — so clearly seem at play?

Corporate execs at firms like Booz Allen and the Carlyle Group are making fortunes doing “systematic snooping” for the government. These execs have a vested self-interest in pumping up demand for their snooping services — and they’re indeed, the Washington Post reported last week, pumping away.

This past April, the Post notes, Booz Allen established a new 1,500-employee division “aimed at creating new products that clients (read: government agencies) don’t know they need yet.” This new division is developing “social media analytics” that can anticipate the latest “cyber threat.”

Private contractors like Booz Allen have a vested self-interest in pumping up demand for their snooping services.

In other words, this new unit will be figuring out how to get the federal government to pay up even more for investigating who we “like” on Facebook.

In one sense, none of this should surprise us. Corporate executives — particularly in the defense industry — have been enriching themselves off government contracts for years. Post-9/11 political dynamics have only turbocharged that process. America now sports, as Pulitzer Prize-winning analyst David Rohde observed last week, a “secrecy industrial complex.”

Do the Snowden revelations have the potential to upset Corporate America’s long-running government contracting gravy train? Maybe, but only if anger over the revelations translates into real changes that keep private corporate contractors from getting rich off tax dollars.

What might these changes entail? The Affordable Care Act enacted in 2010 — Obamacare — suggests one initial step. Under this new legislation, private health insurance companies can no longer deduct off their corporate income taxes any compensation over $500,000 that they pay their top executives.

A more potent antidote to contracting windfalls would be simply denying government contracts to corporations that overcompensate their top execs, a course of action U.S. senator Hugo Black from Alabama, later a noted Supreme Court justice, proposed back in the early years of the Great Depression.

How might this approach work today? The President of the United States makes about 25 times the compensation of the lowest-paid federal employee. We could apply that standard to federal contracting and deny our tax dollars to companies that pay their top execs over 25 times what any of their workers are making.

Protecting privacy in a dangerous world will never be easy. But we’ll never have even a shot at protecting privacy until we take the profit out of violating it. Ending windfalls for contractors would be the logical place to start.


http://toomuchonline.org/where-uncle-sam-ought-to-be-snooping/
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jun 19, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
If we could have a national sales tax and do away with the IRS, and force all of its employees into finding private sector jobs, I am willing to put up with the NSA snooping on my e-mails.

If I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that snooping on everyone's e-mails and phone calls would prevent a single innocent person from dying in a terrorist attack, then I would be all right with it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Jun 20, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Slightly OT, but has anybody seen the shitstorm that Democracy Now is breaking on Flight 800?
Yeowza!


... Obama added: "If people can't trust the executive branch, but also don't trust Congress and don't trust federal judges ... then we're going to have some problems here."

Gosh sir, We the People have now learned that all three branches of government have furtively conspired for seven years to violate our privacy — so, no, we don't trust any of them. And, yes, that is a biiiiiiig problem.

© 2013 Jim Hightower
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 20, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
has anybody seen the shitstorm that Democracy Now is breaking on Flight 800?


Broke on some of the ex military oriented and conservative blogs over the weekend.

It seems some of the retirees are now out from under the thumb and talking.

This broke over night too.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100222652/wikileaks-says-michael-hastings-contacted-it-just-before-his-death-are-they-implying-he-was-murdered/
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 20, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
American reporter feeling big brothers eye watching

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2013/06/19/living-in-fear-welcome-to-fascist-america/?singlepage=true

It’s a fear. You don’t really cower under the desk.
But its a nagging fear, a trepidation.
Something that never goes away. Obama is watching you, monitoring
whatever you do.

If you make a mistake, you will pay for it. Eventually. Some day.
Your future is bleak.

Basically, you are being silenced. Everyone is. Purposefully or not, they are trying to shut you down and shut you up.

They say they’re not, but they are.
They say they don’t believe they are, but they are.
They have protective password mechanisms in place, but who has access? Someday your enemies will.

We have to rely on the beneficence of our overseers, but only a fool should rest easy.
How can we believe in anything? Everything is too big. We are just cogs in
the big wheel of the surveillence state.

And here’s the big problem: it’s only getting worse as every little
detail is being recorded into the searchable database.

So live in fear. There is a Bad Santa watching you. And he decides if
you've been bad or good.
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 20, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 20, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/06/19/podcast-show-112-nsa-whistleblower-goes-on-record-reveals-new-information-names-culprits/
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 21, 2013 - 02:20am PT
The secret rules that allow NSA to use US data without a warrant

"The Fisa court's oversight role has been referenced many times by Barack Obama and senior intelligence officials as they have sought to reassure the public about surveillance, but the procedures approved by the court have never before been publicly disclosed.

The top secret documents published today detail the circumstances in which data collected on US persons under the foreign intelligence authority must be destroyed, extensive steps analysts must take to try to check targets are outside the US, and reveals how US call records are used to help remove US citizens and residents from data collection.

However, alongside those provisions, the Fisa court-approved policies allow the NSA to:

• Keep data that could potentially contain details of US persons for up to five years;

• Retain and make use of "inadvertently acquired" domestic communications if they contain usable intelligence, information on criminal activity, threat of harm to people or property, are encrypted, or are believed to contain any information relevant to cybersecurity;

• Preserve "foreign intelligence information" contained within attorney-client communications;

• Access the content of communications gathered from "U.S. based machine[s]" or phone numbers in order to establish if targets are located in the US, for the purposes of ceasing further surveillance.

The broad scope of the court orders, and the nature of the procedures set out in the documents, appear to clash with assurances from President Obama and senior intelligence officials that the NSA could not access Americans' call or email information without warrants."

The whole article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/20/fisa-court-nsa-without-warrant
froodish

Social climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:10am PT
And Use of Tor and e-mail crypto could increase chances that NSA keeps your data/ this is why everyone should use GPG or similar to encrypt their email. At least make them pay (computer time) for accessing email communication.

My key is here: http://pangram.org/steve/pubkey.txt

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 21, 2013 - 11:10am PT
"Asked about US surveillance programmes in an earlier interview with a Spanish technology news site, FayerWayer, Steve Wozniak said: "All these things about the constitution, that made us so good as people – they are kind of nothing.

"They are all dissolved with the Patriot Act. There are all these laws that just say 'we can secretly call anything terrorism and do anything we want, without the rights of courts to get in and say you are doing wrong things'. There's not even a free open court any more. Read the constitution. I don't know how this stuff happened. It's so clear what the constitution says."

He said he had been brought up to believe that "communist Russia was so bad because they followed their people, they snooped on them, they arrested them, they put them in secret prisons, they disappeared them – these kinds of things were part of Russia. We are getting more and more like that.""
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 21, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Just replace "national interest" with "regime interests" for most of the story and it reads correctly.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html#.UcRqZMjn-70

Why do the FDA, Dept. of Agriculture NOAA and the Peace Corps have to do with legitimate national security interests?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 21, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Seeing someone in the position of James Clapper - the Director of National Intelligence - baldly lying to the public without repercussion is the evidence of a subverted democracy.

Not just lying to the public but lying to Congress, which is supposed to oversee them! Why doesn't he go to jail instead? How would we know he was lying without a whistleblower. Kill the messenger? Screw that~! Even Clinton got impeached for lying to congress about a MUCH smaller issue

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 21, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/fri-june-14-2013-

Funny, and shows the dude lying to congress

Peace

karl
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 21, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
Insider Threat Program June 2013

whats this?
President 'Leak Plugger's unprecedented initiative, known as the Insider
Threat Program gives the NSA authority to increase monitoring of all
communications to hunt down leakers.


"Hammer this fact home . . . leaking is tantamount to aiding the enemies
of the United States,” says a June 1, 2012, Defense Department
oberfurher on strategy for the program.


Requires federal employees to snitch on co-workers. Failure to do so is
now a crime and if the cubical worker across the aisle from you leaks to
the media you could go to jail for not catching him and alerting the
department manager.

So best not to talk to anyone in the office so you have plausible
deniability of not knowing anything, just like the administration.


You have stepped thru the looking glass when it makes perfect sense to get
jail time for not being a mind reader. What school teaches that course btw? Got to sign up.



Hey, let’s get people to snitch on their coworkers.

The only thing they haven’t done here is reward it,” said Kel McClanahan,
a Washington lawyer who specializes in national security law.

I’m waiting for the time when you turn in your manager and
get a $500 reward and take over his job with a higher salary.
Sweet!


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/20/194513/obamas-crackdown-views-leaks-as.html
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 12:01am PT
Pardon Edward Snowden | We the People: Your Voice in Our Government

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:00am PT
Signed.
Bargainhunter

climber
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:19am PT
Signed it too. Think it will make a difference if millions sign it?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:09am PT
"British spy agency collects and stores vast quantities of global email messages, Facebook posts, internet histories and calls, and shares them with NSA, latest documents from Edward Snowden reveal"

"The Americans were given guidelines for its use, but were told in legal briefings by GCHQ lawyers: "We have a light oversight regime compared with the US".

When it came to judging the necessity and proportionality of what they were allowed to look for, would-be American users were told it was "your call".

The Guardian understands that a total of 850,000 (?) NSA employees and US private contractors with top secret clearance had access to GCHQ databases.

The documents reveal that by last year GCHQ was handling 600m "telephone events" each day, had tapped more than 200 fibre-optic cables and was able to process data from at least 46 of them at a time."


The article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa
nah000

climber
canuckistan
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
in case there is any doubt about obama's "evolution." this is from 2007:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

obama now equates secret courts making sweeping decisions affecting millions of americans with "transparency." and that's only to focus on what has been confirmed.

i apologize, in advance, for the following rant directed at the american citizen who assumes, without trial, what their gov't tells them: that snowden is a "traitor." my problem is, i have found the u.s. to be such an incredible and inspirational country with regard to much of its history, its land and its people, that it's hard to not have a fair bit of vitriol when it comes to commenting on the path american leaders have led the american public down post 9/11.

<rant>

i read a der spiegel editorialist who made the following obvious but important point within this context: "The US is, for the time being, the only global power -- and as such it is the only truly sovereign state in existence. All others are dependent -- either as enemies or allies."

if you believe that the head of the current u.s. corporatocracy is concerned about this leak because its spying capabilities were exposed to either china, or europe, or even "al queda" you are being played for a fool.

we now have confirmation that the nsa is working hand in hand with the u.k.'s gchq, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that there are a lot of other western powers on the same list of cooperating intelligence gatherers [including canada's].

if you don't think the chinese elite knew about what the nsa was capable of, again, wake the f*#k up. china had what was thought to be the largest and most sophisticated state wide censorship and spying infrastructure on the planet. the only reason i put that in the past tense, is because it turns out the u.s. is giving them a real run for their money for the title of "largest and most sophisticated."

and i guarantee osama, et al weren't going to the trouble of using memory keys and runners, because they underestimated the capabilities of the u.s. military/intelligence complex.

no, the primary reason obama, et al are going and will go after snowden with every tool in their toolbox [smear campaigns, legal and possibly even extra legal methods] is that he exposed this to the american public.

because, at this point, the ONLY viable threat to the ruling power structure of the world's sole superpower, is you: the american public.

and while i hate to channel my inner palin, if you think that the bush/obama "led" empire's primary concern is main street, just look at who got bailed out and is already prospering, and who didn't and is still paying for the most recent crisis.

if the american public shoots the messenger and allows snowden to go down, you will prove deserving of everything that is being done to you and will continue to be done to you.

and if the above doesn't make any sense to you, it's okay, just repeat after me:

"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."

</rant>
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 22, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
NWO: Wow! healyje signed a petition to have Snowden pardoned? Is this correct?

You really don't follow along very well...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
There's a BIG facility just completed in Colorado who's sole purpose is to capture EVERY electronic communication in the nation.

All phone calls, Emails, IMs, Videos, Skype, data transfers,

and archive them for at least four years.


Are you really ok with that?

Only an out and out Fascist, Communist or some other form of totalitarian would be.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 22, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
This facility was built completely under King Barry's reign.

He didn't stop it did he?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 22, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
Dr. F - http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/ in Bluffdale, UT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 23, 2013 - 01:35am PT
TGT: This facility was built completely under King Barry's reign. He didn't stop it did he?

This is a BushCo facility and Obama had no power to stop its construction other than not signing intelligence appropriation bills. We've been over all this ground already.

NWO: Why do you hate America, Joe? North Korea will gladly take you in.

Dude, you have such a weak grasp on what America, Communism, and Fascism 'are' that you probably shouldn't get in over your head with North Korea. I will say, however, I'm beginning to detect a few similarities between you and Kim Jong-un (other than the fact Jong-un is clearly better educated).
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:36am PT
So do you support the security state and the collection of a dossier of every American's digital life?

A simple yes or no will do.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 23, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Snowden is apparently in Mother Russia now...

Of course--where all true blue American patriots and whistle blowers go.

Curt
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
Riley

Look into the mirror and breath calmly...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
jghedge

Stop the ridiculous black-white spinning...
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
Folks really do not have any idea what it takes to keep them safe.

Only stupid Americans create an unsafe situation in the first place and then make stupid laws and rules to fix the same unsafe situations they simultaneously continually keep going.

Then the stupid Americans preach to the whole world how they are trying to keep everyone safe.

All while building an unsafe world.

Americans are the stupidest people on the planet ......



Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
Edward Snowden seeks asylum in Ecuador amid diplomatic storm: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/23/edward-snowden-escape-moscow-ecuador
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 23, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
"The fall-out from Snowden's leaks continued to stir the surveillance debate in the UK, with Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, insisting David Cameron or the foreign secretary, William Hague, should address MPs.

On Friday, the Guardian revealed GCHQ has put taps on some of the cables that carry internet traffic in and out of the UK, and has developed a storage system - codenamed Tempora - that can keep the information for up to 30 days.

The programme, which has not been disclosed before, allows GCHQ to keep a vast amount of emails and telephone calls for analysis.

Chakrabarti said: "The authorities appear to be kidding themselves with a very generous interpretation of the law that cannot stand with article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights.

"Revelations of blanket surveillance of the British public on such a scale amount to a huge scandal even by the standards of recent years. At the very least, the prime minister or foreign secretary should appear before the House of Commons immediately to explain how this was justified without clear legal authority or parliamentary debate.""
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 23, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 23, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
So Snowden is going to Ecuador.

via Cuba.

Wouldn't it be a dramatic thing, if Cuba placed him under arrest, and returned him to the US?

The possibility of a tremendous opening of the gate to Cuba, and the resultant ending of their isolation.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Jun 23, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
A letter from a Phd. freind of mine below. It seems relevant to this conservation.

Hi Rick:

Yes, indeed, "hope for the best and prepare for the worst" is sage advise. Am i crazy because of my heart condition affecting not only my physical well being, but also my mind, my perception of reality, my sense of well being?Or does it seem to you that everything is falling apart from the center and core of existence? How can we be hopeful when our convictions and beliefs are constantly attacked by very evil forces;when government and corporate policies destroy us in real time, 24/7, 365 days each year? How can we prepare for that which we do not understand nor have control over? What can we do to preserve the essence of our convictions, beliefs, and values when the powers that govern our lives force us into isolation with an impending sense of helplessness, anger, joylessness, and despair?

Yes, indeed, DOOM does describe the times we are passing through. DOOM is fashionable and trendy. The perception of impending DOOM is real! My children express it. My casual acquaintances admit to uncontrollable fear, apprehension, and a generalized non-specified terror. My friends feel we are on the path of species specific annihlation. Doom is in the air. It is a dread that keeps a man in bed instead of embracing the opportunities and potential joy of the new day. It is the reason why two thirds of our countrymen are doped up on anti-depressants. It is why Hollywood is dosing us up on movies that deal with apocalyptic themes, end of the world fears, and, well zombies. Perhaps the zombie craze describes the 21st century man. He shuffles through modern times feeling this unspecified rage, ready to bite and kill those remaining souls left alive. They have no real appetite for nourishment or sustenance; just the essential raging urge to chew, chomp, munch, crunch, tear at, snap at, and in short, pass on the soul killing disease.

I agree that what causes this feeling in the general populace is difficult to understand. I think we need to discover who actually controls the levers of power; not the junk yard illusion and myth of democracy, but real power! Follow the money. Men who are not afraid to lose their lives cannot be forced to accept the unacceptable. The fearful masses may be programmed through the media to accept the daily erosion of their constitutional and legal rights in exchange for the incorrect perception of safety and well being. Perhaps modern serfdom is acceptable to these terrified hordes. Perhaps they confuse the perception of the common man's authentic welfare with the acquisition of material possesions and positive cash flow? Perhaps they fear for the day when their material shelter, retirement and savings, health care, and security are stripped away from them by their owners, those that control the real power. The government does everything it can to keep its citizens in a state of perpetual terror, as they mindlessly shuffle through the DHS requirements and rituals.

A zombie cannot communicate. It can only absorb stimuli and react with violent dependability. A zombie has attained genuine enlightenment in the information technology age,i.e., all "informative" material originates from the same source, from those that exercise true POWER.

George Bush Sr. did help to transform the USA into the USZ. He was the czar of the CIA and a good family freind of the Saudi royalty. He was the founding father of the New World Order.He was an inspirational Zionist at the same time. He knew how to exercise power. He set the path for Clinton, his son, and the current occupant of the White House. He was a genius. Bush Senior led us to the creation of international sustainable development of zombie culture. Yes, Brazil hosted the UNCED in '92 just as Pappy left office and infected the first victim with the Z plague and then gave us the means of sustainable implementation on a world wide scale. What an exemplary and shining example of the contemporary Power Broker! Look for Pelosi, Reed, and Kerry to get Agenda 21 into treaty form, and then look to Obama to figure out how to eliminate Amendment VI of our constitution, so that 21 becomes the law of the land in the USZ. The important point here is that there is no difference between the democrat and republican parties anymore. Global government is the ultimate goal (or is it ghoul) of these power brokers of A.D. 2013.

I still do my best to get prepared and retain hope; yet i fear it is about to get much much worse and that it will take at least be a 1000 years before all the Z's are forced out of existence. Western civilization as we have known it during our lives is about to get clobbered just as the Romans did 1500 years ago. I don't think science will find a vaccine in time. I hope that a handful of warrior monks can keep the fire lit for the next ten centuries of survival.

Who needs a thousand points of light anyway?

Mournfully yours, Dr. SCAR
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
...this is just a government trying to prevent a serious and inevitable terrorist attack by trying to preserve trillions of conversations so if something does pop up they might be able to go back and connect the dots before they blow up our pretty little lives again...

I don't agree at all, Riley. As I wrote to you previously, I think NSA data collection has been hijacked for profit by huge defense companies. William Binney, "Technical Leader for Intelligence" for the NSA , when he retired in 2001, was very upset. This is a guy who was with the NSA for 36 years and had the equivalent rank of a general.

He complained that relatively low cost, focused systems he'd developed, were being passed over for bemoths that gather everything. Binney says if the NSA can focus on 2 depths of separation they will find terrorists. Gathering every bit of data is way more than what is needed.

The excerpt below makes a very good point that all kinds of people can be blackmailed with the level of data being collected. I'm not saying that's necessarily happening, but why would any "democracy" set themselves up like that?

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/6/10/inside_the_nsas_domestic_surveillance_apparatus_whistleblower_william_binney_speaks_out



AMY GOODMAN: And talk about that for a moment, Bill, the former Qwest CEO Joe Nacchio, the only head of a communications company to—the only head of a company to demand a court order or approval under FISA.

WILLIAM BINNEY: Yes, and the consequence for him was they targeted him, and now he’s in prison. So, I mean, they succeeded in prosecuting him. But what it told me was that the intent from the beginning was to do domestic spying, accumulating information and knowledge about the U.S.—the entire U.S. population. So I thought of that as a J. Edgar Hoover on super steroids, you know? It wasn’t that he had information and knowledge to leverage just the Congress. You have information and knowledge to leverage everyone, judges included, in the country. So, that’s why I got so concerned. I tried to work internally in the government to get people to do something about it, but that whole process failed. So what it did was it alerted them to what I was doing, and they targeted me with the FBI, and they attempted to falsely prosecute me. Fortunately, I was able to get evidence of malicious prosecution every time, so they finally backed off trying to prosecute me.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
Let us know when that actually starts happening

Well, Joe, we are never gonna know. Unless someone like Snowden takes the risk and proves it to us.
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2013 - 08:23pm PT
Short sampling "This is only one of several lists."


NUMBER SCIENTISTS AGE CIRCUMSTANCE DATE

#1 Jose Trias Murdered May 19, 1994
#2 Dr. Tsunao Saitoh 46 Murdered May 7, 1996
#3-7 Microbiologists Plane crash October 4, 2001
#8 Jeffrey Paris Wall 41 Murdered? November 6, 2001
#9 Dr.Vladimir Pasechnik 64 Stroke November 21, 2001
#10-12 Dr.Yaakov Matzner, Amiramp Eldor, & Avishai Berkman 54, 59,50 Plane crash November 24, 2001
#13 Roman Kuzmin 24 Struck by a car December 2001
#14 Dr. Benito Que 52 Mugging December 6, 2001
#15 Dr. David Schwartz 57 Murdered December 10, 2001
#16 Set Van Nguyen 44 Found in airlock chamber December 14, 2001
#17 Don C. Wiley 57 Body found by river December 20,2001
#18 Ivan Glebov Bandit attack January 2002
#19 Alexi Brushlinski Killed/murdered? January 2002
#20 Victor Korshunov 56 Murdered February 9, 2002
#21 Dr. Ian Langford 40 Murdered February 11, 2002
#22-23 Tanya Holzmayer & Guyang “Mathew” Huang 46, 38 Murder then suicide February 28, 2002
#24 David Wynn-Williams 55 Struck by vehicle March 24, 2002
#25 Dr. Steven Mostow 63 Plane crash March 25, 2002
#26 Dr. Leland Rickman 47 Unknown June 24, 2003
#27 Dr. David Kelly 59 Suicide?/ Murder July 18, 2003
#28 Michael Perich 46 Car wreck October 11, 2003
#29 Robert Leslie Burghoff 45 Hit and run November 20, 2003
#30 Dr Robert E. Shope 74 Idiopathic Pulmonary Fibrosis January 19, 2004
#31 Michael Patrick Kiley 62 Heart failure January 24, 2004
#32 Vadake Srinivasan 78 Stroke/Car wreck March 13, 2004
#33 William T. McGuire 39 Murdered May 5, 2004
#34 Dr. Eugene F. Mallove 56 Murdered May 16, 2004
#35 Antonina Presnyakova 46 Accidental/Ebola May 19, 2004
#36 Thomas gold 84 Heart disease June 23, 2004
#37 Dr. Assefa Tulu 45 Hemorrhagic stroke June 24, 2004
#38 Dr. John Mullen 67 Acute arsenic intoxication June 29, 2004
#39 Dr Paul Norman 52 Plane crash July 2, 2004
#40 Dr. John Badwey 54 Pneumonia like symptoms July 21, 2004
#41 Dr Bassem al-Mudare Murdered July 21, 2004
#42 Professor John Clark 52 Hanging August 12, 2004
#43 Mohammed Toki Hussein al-Talakani 40 Murdered September 5, 2004
#44 Matthew Allison 32 Car exploded October 13, 2004
#45 John R. La Montagne, Ph.D 61 Sudden pulmonary embolism November 2, 2004
#46 Taleb Ibrahim al-Daher Murdered December 21, 2004
#47-48 Tom Throne & Beth Williams 63, 53 Car wreck December 29, 2004
#49 Jeong H. Im 72 Murdered January 7, 2005
#50 Geetha Angara 43 Murdered/Drowned February 8, 2005
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 10:37pm PT
Land of the slave home of the pussy.

A man puts his life in jeopardy. Risks decades of political imprisonment in order to inform the citizens of his nation about what is being done by it's government.

Yet so many brainwashed idiots are concerned that he broke an unjust law?

America has gotten what it deserves.

I am truly conservative in that I believe that generally people get what they deserve. Not always but generally true.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
Logic

Unjust law allows certain action.. one follows the law and commits unjust actions.

Someone speaks up against unjust law. Informing folks of what is being done under it.(although only idiots hadn't already guessed it was happening)

He is then charged with breaking espionage laws.

Who is wrong? The law or the man pointing it out?

We love to critique other nations who have unjust laws. Yet we act just like the chinese who support their government when it is wrong.

America has Political prisoners and is trying to make this man one of them.



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:00pm PT
Espionage violation?

Who was he spying for exactly?

The American people? Terrible criminal eh?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
What is an unjust law?

Oh for example. Placing folks in Jail for Marijuana infractions.

A law that tried to suspend the Writ of Habeus Corpus and for which that part was struck down.

A law that allows the indefinate detention without legal representaion of anyone that the government chooses by simnple stating at a high enough evel that the one detained is " An enemy Combatant"

A law that allows the government to stockpile for later use every interceptable communication by it's own citizens.

A law that says you can have only one child.

A law that says Saddam Hussain can detain you if he chooses to.

A law requireing that Jews may be rounded up and slaughtered.

A law that requires Japanese descendents to be rounded up in concentration camps and their property confiscated.


climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
jhedge stop being an idiot and asking dumb questions when my point is crystal clear.

Never forgotten. A place I happenned on by chance and brought me to open weeping not long ago.

Abuses continue..

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
I honestly have no idea what the unjust law is that you think has been broken.

Doink! /Facepalm One cannot break an unjust law except by following it.

Dude he has been charged with the felony of breaking something to do with the espionage act.

You look it up if you want to know. To me it is immaterial as regards actual justice in this situation.

I'm sure it was considered a felony to be part of the resistance against the Axis in WWII also. Or to be a signature of the declaration of independence.

Whatever

Not even worthy of a trial of any sort.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 23, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
Yes one breaks the law by following an unjust law.

The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right.

Simple concepts here.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:01am PT
The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right.

+10
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:05am PT
So he is being charged as a SPY.

What adversary was he spying for?

He was spying for the American people.

Why does the Government of the American people consider the American People the adversary?

WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:09am PT
Why does the Government of the American people consider the American People the adversary?

Because they are the crooks!

The crooks are always suspicious.

Like minds.

Crooks don't want to get caught.

So they spy on you to see how much you know so they can't get caught in their nefarious activities.

Most all the worlds top echelon of leaders are crooks these days ......
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:11am PT
"The espionage law is unjust if it is being used as a way to prosecute this man who did what was right."


Uhh, no. The law itself isn't unjust - you're saying that applying it to this situation is.

I could just as easily claim that bank robbery is right, if the stolen funds are used in a manner I agree with.


And I'd be just as wrong as you are.


Nah you'd just be a better writer.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:15am PT
Trust? you kiddin me. I figured out Obama when he voted for telcom immunity as a Senator.

Basics are this jhedge.

Snowden was right to do what he did.

If our government wanted to do something good they would be looking for him to give him a medal.. not to arrest him.

That clear enough logic for you?
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:26am PT
If our government wanted to do something good they would be looking for him to give him a medal

No they wouldn't.

He ratted them out.

Crooks will kill you for that.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:36am PT
Suicide is spending all this money pursuing Snowden instead of providing medical care for those who need it.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:36am PT
http://www.zdnet.com/anger-mounts-after-facebooks-shadow-profiles-leak-in-bug-7000017167/
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42am PT
jhedge wow

Logic

man does good

government should write laws that do not prosecute someone who does good

Government should not prosecute man who does good

Better yet?

SO far you have tried to skirt all over the place..

but this is the basics of my premise..

Snowden did good.

DO you dispute that?
-------------------------


Plwase show me what rights were violated

I would switch sides on this in a heartbeat if any individual came forward who could show anything even faintly resembling slavery, suffragism, voter disenfranchisement etc as a result of NSA data mining

Till then, it's all just hysterical nonsense

Oh RLY?
Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?

Talk about a lack of logic and an irrational conclusion...

LOGIC

You now ask for another Snowden to step up and break the law in order to give you evidence that the government used this datamining inappropriately?

How bout this.. The information exists and is accessible. The government is made of over 1 million human beings. Some of whom are not god people and some of those have accsess to that information.

Odds simpl suggest that this information is abusable available and there is motive to do wrong with it.

Odds are low that it has not been abused.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:52am PT
Exactly Ron. As you might have noticed I supported you on your rants against those laws. Can't say we always agree or should always but you are right about those laws. I rarely get involved in political BS but here i am tonight.. lol

Anyone with a brain knew this was happening because the law clearly made it possible.

Anyone with a brain also knows that the datamining information has been used to harm people.

What can be done will be done. Especially when it's easy to do and lots of people have the opportunity.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:57am PT
Incumbents don't matter much. Not when a new crop of bought and paid for candidates is always available.

Remember it is IMPOSSIBLE to become a federal elected representative without over a Million dollars in campaign donations. That's just the House. About a magnitude more for Senate and almost a couple more Magnitudes for President.

Unless we change that with a constitutional amendment government Of the People For the People and By the People continues to be DEAD.
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:02am PT
By the way

The flight 800 investigators just admited they lied about the plane crash.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:09am PT
How would they know they had their rights infringed by use of a top secret information gathering system? You think that such information couldn't be used to do damage to someone in conjunction with other actions such that the person harmed could not recognize the involvement of the secret part of the harmdoing?

Are you saying that you find it unlikely that such a program has not and will not be used to harm people who do not deserve it?

Like I said you'd need another Snowden to prove it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well. You chose blackmail but I'd have picked other examples.. regardless the concept is valid.

I know you are coming from a default position of trust and hope and knowing a lot of good people.

Try coming from a viewpoint of a person who has been conned by those he trusted, consider that there are people trained proffessionally to be conmen and to work as double agents and to lie in order to convict people.

As far as folks trained to lie in order to imprison human beings. This includes every current Police officer. Let alone the much more thorough training that federal law enforcement receives.

Consider the above facts well

Now use your imagination



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:34am PT
You skipped the part where I answered your question with your own scenario.

Oh sure you'd know you were being blackmailed but you might easily be unaware of source of the information you thought you had hidden well.

I could have said Imagine the sun rising tomorrow because it is that simple to come up with a plausible scenario such as you asked for.. but that would have been rude.

I really am not trying to argue for arguments sake.

I get what you are saying I think. You seem beleive the datamining is being used in an appropriate manner in order to protect us as an additional tool used onle when other information leads us to need that saved datamine info.

I am simply suggesting that the info is easily abused and if so probably has been abused. Not only that but the type of abuse it makes possible is staggeringly bad.

I am furthermore suggesting that what Snowden did in making the people of the US aware of this system was a great service and as such I find him a hero not in any way a criminal.

I don't trust the government to always do what is right with it's power. I do at this time expect that it will do more right than wrong with it.

I am of the opinion that I have more to fear from my governments use of this information than I have to gain from it. Because what they do right with it has little actual pertinance to any risks I face. Whereas what are likely to do wrong with it while it also has very little risk to me is still much higher than the terrorst one to me. Matter of numbers basically. I have way more possible contact with government forces than from terrorists.

We probably disagree.

so be it.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:52am PT
Ok I failed to communicate well. Perhaps I'm not even thinking well. I thought I'd done better. Actually I still think I made some pretty good points.

Someday perhaps I will master the power of thought and communication required to win an argument with a troll on the internet.

Sorry.. seriously.. I wish I'd done better.

And thanks for getting me motivated to think a bit more on this subject.

Gnight man.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08am PT
Dude nobody would attack Los Angeles with a Nuke. Pointless

It would hardly put a dent in it. Disrupt it sure but you could do that with plain old explosives on I5.

Wasted Nuke. Much better places to use one.

Other than nukes you are worrying way too much about Terrorists. And in LA you are definitely worrying too much about it.

Someday terrorists will get a nuke and blow up Washingto DC or NY. Inevitable. It will happen with or without this data mining. Well unless there is no point by then to attack America.

Could be China will be the worlds big target by then. Hope so. We could learn alot from Canada's ability to thrive by not being numero uno on the world stage.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:18am PT
Now how the f*#k are we supposed to figure out if this top secret program was used nefariously by the government without more SNOWDENS?


You are not.

You are not supposed to be making judgements about top secret programs that are used to track terrorists, which if revealed, makes it easier for terrorists to operate.

You are supposed to vote, and elect people you trust to, under the penalty of law, evaluate what is being done, and whether, in their expert opinions, it is legal and valid.

They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.

There is only one person who is alleged to have tapped information they should not have been looking at----and that is Snowden, who disclosed that he was searching through secret documentation that he was not cleared to read, which he knew, then copied and disclosed this information publically.

Sounds like spying to me.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:20am PT
Except I don't trust our "elected" officials.

I'd love to actually even be able to have a democratic election in America.

But that isn't possible anymore.

Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations.

The US government has lost it's credibility unfortunately. But that is a fact of it's own doing.

Last time I used your way of thinking KenM we failed to vote out let alone impeach the idiots we had trusted to make such decisions. I have not Forgotten the lessons of Irag War II
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:21am PT
They have done that evaluation---both parties have---and they have determined that no rights were being violated, and that protections are in place.

Hahahaha
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:36am PT
No not hardly. I love the idea of America. The America I pledged allegiance too. I dream of a nation as described by Our founders and by Lincoln. I hate what it is being perverted into.

As regards my opinion about the Nuking of DC or NY? I hate it but I believe it will occur. Same way my reaction to 9-11 was instantly.. "goddammit they finally did it."

First words out of my mouth after turning on the TV and seeing only one tower standing.

I am a believer in the idea that one person or a small group of highly motivated people are unstoppable.

I suggest removing the motivation as your best defense.

You need to stop listening to Limbaugh buddy. You might not get your filters so twisted that you could imagine let alone think or type that I hate America.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:40am PT

"Not when candidates are chosen for us to vote on. Chosen by way of massive campaign donations."


Except both the current governor of CA, and the guy I worked for who ousted Mary Bono Mack, were outspent by huge amounts.

Your ignorance is sickening. Leave.

They were not outspent as much as the people who did not get donations were.

you jumped to the conclusion that I meant money perfectly guarantees who wins. It doesn't and that is not what I said or even meant to imply.

But it does perfectly guarantee who gets to play. And that is what matters. Not the D or the R. Doesn't matter who wins of the well financed ..all of them were picked as acceptable to the real constituency of the US government long before we the people get to vote.


It allows folks like you to think the system is not corrupt to it's bone.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:57am PT
Corrupted by the need for campaign donations in order to play. No matter how much good they wish to do they are hampered by the need to get donations for themselves or for their party. Even if they wish to ignore it their less resilient colleagues will be constantly reminding them of it.

This creates lines they will not or even if willing simply cannot cross. Lines not first and foremost determined by what is best for The People.

It's a built in defacto foundational conflict of interest.

I think we both need some sleep. You have an early morning . Sorry if I kept you up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:50am PT
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014. Take this gem for example from April:

Congressman Tom Cotton took to the House floor “to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs”:

“I rise today to express grave doubts about the Obama Administration’s counterterrorism policies and programs. Counterterrorism is often shrouded in secrecy, as it should be, so let us judge by the results. In barely four years in office, five jihadists have reached their targets in the United States under Barack Obama: the Boston Marathon bomber, the underwear bomber, the Times Square Bomber, the Fort Hood shooter, and in my own state—the Little Rock recruiting office shooter. In the over seven years after 9/11 under George W. Bush, how many terrorists reached their target in the United States? Zero! We need to ask, ‘Why is the Obama Administration failing in its mission to stop terrorism before it reaches its targets in the United States?’”

This sort of fear-mongering is the essence of what for forty years has passed for the heart and soul of republican campaigns. Be it blacks, gays, immigrants or now terrorists - fear was and is the main currency of republican campaigns. Don't like what's going on at the NSA? Yo conservatives, you voted for it lock, stock and barrel and have helped perpetuate the rhetoric of fear which made it as impossible for Obama to stop this program as it was for him to close Gitmo. So as far as I'm concerned, every conservative bitching about the NSA here or anywhere else can suck long and deep on it.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 07:38am PT
Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys far more oppressive of their citzens freedom than the USA
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:21am PT
Good point HealyJe. We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.

Hope and change my ass.


Response to Healyje who said:
"Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails. They deliberately generated a climate of fear to allow them two pre-emptive wars to follow through on long-simmering neocon plans of which this was clearly a part of. That climate of fear was pervasive and been reiterated ad nausea in every national election from 2001 on right through 2012 and in the run-up to 2014."
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
As a follow up and corollary to your Bushco point then, anyone who voted for Obama voted for extraordinary murder of US citizens? It's the voters fault? As the murder of citizens for thought crime was initiated and expanded by Obama, can't blame that on Bushco.

I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries" platform and I don't recall Obama running under the "It's time to execute Americans for thought crime" banner either. But that's what you have. So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:42pm PT

Someone's being blackmailed by the gov't, based on data mining, but without a whistleblower telling them it's happening, they wouldn't know it?
I'm sorry, but there's just no sense or logic in that assumption.
I mean, wouldn't I know I was being blackmailed, without Snowden telling me? Why do I need him to tell me that?

If a voyeur looking in your bedroom window was discreet enough that you don't see hims, have you been harmed? Better yet, he might scare away burglars, so in fact he's doing you a favor?

Personally, I don't have a big problem with billing records, I never felt they were private in the first place, and anyone who did was deluded, but where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy, I don't want anyone looking or listening. If national security requires it, then let us know we're been listened to and let us decide.

I think this whole thing is a clever interim solution. Remember when Saddam Hussein realized it was far cheaper and easier to pretend he had WMD? Far cheaper to pretend the NSA has the ability to monitor and accurately catalog every phone call, email, google search and run facial recognition software on every CCTV and traffic camera in the nation. Eventually they will be able to, but in the meantime potential terrorists are afraid to even stand too near a phone or computer.

TE

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
There's a new cell phone game out - 'Where's Snowdon Now?'
WBraun

climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
Zero Dark Thirty

What pure bullsh!t movie.

Hedge you're a tin foil hatter ....
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 24, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
The pattern:

"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
Zero Dark Thirty

What pure bullsh!t movie.

Right. Like you were there. pffft.

Curt
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
The pattern:

"In the immediate aftermath of the atomic bomb, the allied occupation authorities banned all mention of radiation poisoning and insisted that people had been killed or injured only by the bomb's blast. It was the first big lie. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin" said the front page of the New York Times, a classic of disinformation and journalistic abdication, which the Australian reporter Wilfred Burchett put right with his scoop of the century. "I write this as a warning to the world," reported Burchett in the Daily Express, having reached Hiroshima after a perilous journey, the first correspondent to dare. He described hospital wards filled with people with no visible injuries but who were dying from what he called "an atomic plague". For telling this truth, his press accreditation was withdrawn, he was pilloried and smeared - and vindicated."

Great post!

It is sad how soon we as a society forget the past. There is little new under the sun, and the pattern repeats. It is transparent if you really look, but it is always easier to believe the lie and go along with the crowd... Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Jun 24, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
Well there's Cotopaxi, Sangay, indigenous people living in the amazon and overall, a natural environment, but I think after about 6 months I'd want to go home. What's he going to do for a living, live off wikileaks donations?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
'Am I the only one here who finds it ironic that the leaker seeks aid and asylum from countrys [sic] far more oppressive of their citzens [sic] freedom than the USA'


Nope.

Joe, it's nice being on the same side for once.

John
blowersattms

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jun 24, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
Ironic, just maybe, but hey, all it means is that he's gone to countries outside our reach. Crikey, wouldn't you? It's not like he supports their ideologies, jeez! Listen to his interview. Ends and means, what!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Let's be excruciatingly clear - every aspect of this program was put in place by BushCo and if you voted for them, you voted for the Patriot Act. If you voted for them, you voted for NSA Bluffdale and all it entails.

its amazing that the libtards have thier head so far up obamas ass that they can't smell the sh#t. you guys really think his sh#t is better than W's?

if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

no wonders this countrys so f*#ked up. you libtards on this site are as bad as teabaggers and just as brainless.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

So, you believe that after Congress authorized (and reauthorized) this surveillance and the Supreme Court upheld the legality of this surveillance, all that would be needed to stop it would be a simple opinion letter by the Attorney General? Please do explain exactly how that would work. Thanks.

Curt
abrams

Sport climber
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
The Russians and still mad about Obama's CIA spy caught with the wig there last month.

So Putin is twirling our limp piece of spagettii in the oval office for all he's worth and catching style points from around the world.

And contrary to libtard thinking it is not good when the whole world is smiling at our apparent weakness to get Snowden back.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
your the lawyer curt. tell us how it was the supreme court? my understanding was that it was FISA.

or are you saying that obama had no choice and lied during his initial campaign for POTUS, but thats OK with you since his sh#t dont stink?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
your the lawyer curt. tell us how it was the supreme court? my understanding was that it was FISA.

Your understanding just isn't very good--on multiple points.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/13164-supreme-court-allows-nsas-warrantless-wiretapping-to-continue

Curt
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
Curt's a lawyer? Uh oh...

At least he's consistently wrong.

Curt
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
"Glenn Greenwald has appeared on Jake Tapper's program on CNN. Tapper plays the exchange we linked to earlier this afternoon in which NBC's David Gregory suggested Greenwald may have "aid[ed] and abet[ted]" a crime.

......

Greenwald says the underlying premise of the question, that a journalist working with a source to tell a vital story based on sensitive information may be a criminal act, is pernicious to the work of truth-telling and chilling to investigative journalism as an enterprise."
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
if BO wanted to stop this he would have had Holder write a different opinion up.

As Curt noted, it's way out of Obama/Holder's hands - the NSA's programs are authorized under the Patriot Act. The only recourse the administrations has is not signing intelligence appropriations. Or I suppose they could try and find a member of congress willing to front an Unpatriot Act.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
The head of the NSA, James Clapper, lied to congress when asked (lied directly to YOUR Senator Ron Wyden) when under oath. A lie through ommision is still a lie. Obama could and should have immediately fired him after reading the transcript. Link to an article from Slate, about as left leaning as it gets.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/06/fire_dni_james_clapper_he_lied_to_congress_about_nsa_surveillance.html

This bullshit is on the executive branch.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
there you go joe. right on spelling out obama's impotence as a leader.

dont worry, your the type of guy who seems to like the smell of his sh#t so no harm no foul....but stop pretending that your liberal leanings or any more intelligent than someone who believes sarah palin all the time.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
We should also be "excruciatingly clear" that the President that followed Bushco has spent years expanding on many government programs which many US citizens think are breaking constitutional law. Killing unarmed Americans without due process being another one.

He has not spent years "expanding many government program" other than pressuring the Taliban with drone strikes in Pakistan as a prelude to our Afghan withdrawal. What other programs are you talking about? The use of drones in targeted killings of suspected terrorists is nothing new.

The targeting of America citizens is unique to this presidency and that I agree is on dubious legal ground - but, that legal/constitutional ground was again made entirely murky before Obama ever took office. But, this is again a symptom of a form of asymmetric warfare we've heavily engendered and against which our military is now essentially useless. This will have to be settled by Congress and SCOTUS over time, but however that settles out the challenge of what to do with American citizens who turn against us will surely remain.

I don't recall Bush running on the "lets go insane and invade some middle eastern countries"...

Then you clearly weren't following along with BushCo's Project for a New American Century which actually pushed for, and campaigned on, exactly that premise.

So should voters of those men be blamed or is it more likely that parts of the government are too big and out of control? That's what Snowdens point was.

The former point was not Snowden's, it's yours. Ask the republican voters in West, TX if government is too big. The 'government's too big' mantra is simplistic beyond words if not complete fantasy and folly and those who would pare it down would do so in all the wrong ways. And in fact, they've been hamstringing regulatory oversight of industry after industry in every conceivable way possible for decades now, but greed is the only driver to-date with your mantra giving that greed cover. 'Smaller government' is in no way the answer - effective government is, as would be government for humans as opposed to corporations, but conservatives are dead set against any such change.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Couchmaster: The head of the NSA, James Clapper, lied to congress when asked (lied directly to YOUR Senator Ron Wyden) when under oath. A lie through ommision is still a lie. Obama could and should have immediately fired him after reading the transcript. Link to an article from Slate, about as left leaning as it gets.

Clapper was responding in an open hearing to a question the answer to which he considered classified and so lied in response. You can argue, as other members of the Senate Intelligence Committee did, that Wyden - who, as a member of that committee and already knew the answer - deliberately put Clapper in an untenable position on purpose to publicly expose the NSA program.

As far as I'm concerned the distinction between Wyden's question and Snowden's release of NSA program information is basically negligible given both were deliberate. Maybe we should be indicting Wyden for treason as well given his intent was identical to Snowden's.

Hawkeye: there you go joe. right on spelling out obama's impotence as a leader.

You have a serious lack of understanding about the power of the Executive - it has nothing whatsoever to do with Obama - it wouldn't matter if Ron Paul, Mitt Romney. or God were president, he'd have no more recourse than Obama.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
joe the hypocrite. of course we knew that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
I'll take that as a complement coming from Hawkeye the ignorant. The number of conservative heads spinning here is basically hysterical.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
no conservative here. neither do i blindly blame the other guy because of party lines. your ability to justify obama's impotence is really pathetic, especially since you have it in your head that your logical. logical like sarah palin logical, you are.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Jun 24, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
I'm not going to stir the pot or even voice an opinion, but there was a very intelligent and civil discussion on The Diane Rehm Show today on NPR.

She consistently brings both sides into the conversation, and today's show was no exception.

Really good, and worth a listen.

http://thedianerehmshow.org/
J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
The retarded comments by rsin and his promising understudy jhedge are a
case study of the low information poster.



In April 2011, Ecuador declared the then-U.S. ambassador in Ecuador
persona non grata, citing alleged confidential cables released to the
public by WikiLeaks.


US Ambassador Heather Hodges would not give satisfactory answers when asked
by Foreign Minister Ricardo Patino on how she knew of corruption in the
police department. She did not give up intel about NSA PRISM to the
Ecuadorians.


From their veiwpoint Obama's Ambassador Hodges insulted the national pride
of Ecuador and therefore was expelled.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12979967



J man

Trad climber
morgan hill
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
jdhedge ok you are operating with a childs understanding of spy v spy.
and are unable to fathom what she did wrong.



couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
Then you clearly weren't following along with BushCo's Project for a New American Century which actually pushed for, and campaigned on, exactly that premise.

Not the first election, that was Bush's version of Hope and Change. Then came voter fear from 9/11, the war on terrorism and the patriot act for the Bushco opening act chapter 2. BTW, for "Blame Game" extra credit - how many members of congress, dem or repup, voted NOT to give the President authority to attact Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_presidential_campaign,_2000




"The former point was not Snowden's, it's yours."
Clearly he thought that the NSA and executive powers were out of control. But the man can still speak for himself...for now.



. 'Smaller government' is in no way the answer - effective government is, as would be government for humans as opposed to corporations, but conservatives are dead set against any such change.

You feel that you can effect change by singing Kumbayah? Uhhh, good luck with that. The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller goverment. The programs that remain will be easier to deal with along with the more commonsensical ones and stupid empire building projects will more than not drop by the wayside. Barring a powerful senator or 2 here or there and borrowing from the soon to be bankrupt Fed of course. Not that you will see a bankrupt FED, as due to their charter, they make 5% return on their activities. Basically they are bankrupting YOU to pay for things like this extra-constitutional illegal monitoring of everything you and I do. Because the Chinese are not loaning for stupid sh#t like this any more in case anyone missed that.

Have a nice day.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 08:58pm PT
Edward Snowden is trying to escape the long arm of U.S. law by flying in and out of countries that clearly don't mind annoying us, and just as clearly are not the exemplars of democracy, transparency and civil liberties he wishes his own country to be.

Snowden's itinerary appeared to be evolving throughout much of Sunday. He left Hong Kong, landed in Russia and was reportedly bound for Cuba and then Venezuela. Later, the foreign minister of Ecuador tweeted that his country had received an asylum request from Snowden.

So say you're a citizen of Hong Kong, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela or Ecuador, and you want to protest against your government, maybe even leak some big secrets. What kind of conditions and treatment might you expect? Nothing close to Snowden's standard for his own country, that's for sure. Here's what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch conclude in their 2013 world reports:

HONG KONG: The island does not have universal suffrage, police use "overly restrictive methods" in controlling assembly, and the government is not investigating claims that China is monitoring and intimidating Beijing critics based in Hong Kong, says Human Rights Watch. The group says that in a first, two people from mainland China were sentenced to "reeducation through labor" after participating in the annual July 1 pro-democracy demonstration in Hong Kong.

RUSSIA: According to Amnesty International, the definitions of treason and espionage in Russia were broadened to include sharing information with "or providing miscellaneous assistance" to foreign states and organizations whose activities are "directed against security of the Russian Federation." Human Rights Watch said the expanded definition of treason "could lead to criminal action against those who conduct international advocacy on human rights issues."

Also relevant to the Snowden saga: "Trials did not meet international standards of fairness, and the number of apparently politically motivated decisions grew." And "allegations of torture and other ill-treatment remained widely reported."

As for the overall atmosphere, there was "an unprecedented crackdown against civic activism" in Russia last year, including new laws that "restrict nongovernmental organizations and freedoms of assembly and expression." Libel was re-criminalized several months after it was decriminalized. Amnesty International said that human-rights defenders, journalists and lawyers faced harassment, and investigations into violence against them were "ineffective."

CUBA: Human Rights Watch calls Cuba "the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of political dissent" and says it does so using "short-term detentions, beatings, public acts of repudiation, travel restrictions, and forced exile. "The government continues to sentence dissidents to one to four-year prison terms in closed, summary trials, and holds others for extended periods without charge," the group says.

Amnesty International noted that Antonio Michel Lima Cruz, released in October after a two-year sentence, had been convicted of "insulting symbols of the homeland" and "public disorder" for singing anti-government songs. An opposition blogger was blocked from leaving the country for a conference. In addition, " access to information on the Internet remained challenging due to technical limitations and restrictions on content."

VENEZUELA: The power amassed by the government under the late president Hugo Chavez has enabled it to "intimidate, censor, and prosecute Venezuelans who criticize the president or thwart his political agenda," writes Human Rights Watch. Reprisals against government critics have unnerved judges, journalists and human rights defenders. Chavez adopted laws that "dramatically reduce the public's right to obtain information held by the government." In addition, he packed the Supreme Court, which "has largely abdicated its role as a check on executive power." Voters narrowly chose a hand-picked Chavez ally to succeed Chavez in a disputed April election.

ECUADOR: This is the country that gave asylum last summer to Julian Assange, the founder of Wikileaks. He is now advising Snowden from inside the embassy of Ecuador in London, where he has been for a year.

Human Rights Watch in its latest annual report notes that journalists and media figures who criticize the government are subjected to "public denunciation and retaliatory litigation." In addition, it says, "Corruption, inefficiency, and political influence have plagued Ecuador's judiciary for years."

The group cites a "terrorism and sabotage" section of the criminal code that it says authorities are using against people protesting about issues like the environment. There's also a 2011 decree from President Rafael Correa allowing the government to monitor the activities of all international NGOs with offices in Ecuador, and rescind their authorizations to operate if, among other things, they resort to "political interference" or "attack public security and peace." And just last week, Human Rights Watch scored Ecuador for a new law it termed an "assault on free speech."

Like the other nations on Snowden's sanctuary search, this does not seem like his type of place.

The two groups did not spare America, which came in for criticism over the death penalty, its incarceration rate, and counter-terrorism policies that include lethal force, military commissions, and indefinite detentions at Guantanamo. However, Human Rights Watch also said that "The United States has a vibrant civil society and media that enjoy strong constitutional protections." In other words, the place Snowden is fleeing, though imperfect, likely comes closest to his ideal.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
You feel that you can effect change by singing Kumbayah? Uhhh, good luck with that. The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller goverment. The programs that remain will be easier to deal with, and stupid empire building projects will more than not drop by the waysiede. Barring a powerful senator or 2 here or there.


As a conservative, I concur.

After that maybe we can work to make Congressional bills decipherable. No more 1000+ page bills that nobody reads "until it's passed".

If it takes more than a handful of pages, make another bill that addresses the additional specifics. Washington is lacking in common-sense, or common-good. Pretty big on lobbyists.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:01pm PT
Think about it Tradman. If the claim that Snowden has 4 laptops full of info is true. China now has a copy of that info. All of it. He will fly to Russia. They will have full copies soon, so that they get the "truth" or the info directly anyway, and not a Chinese edited version. Not because Snowden gave it over, but simply because he left them in his hotel room and walked down for some KFC.

That's what that means. It's going to cost us, the taxpayer, shitload of scratch to get an intelligence lead like that again. We may all but had our own Enigma machine and he handed the codes over. We're getting f*#ked by Snowden while getting F*#ked by our own government. This game has been going on for quite some time. For myself, I'd rather be a winner, but I would concede at the start of any discourse that my distrust of big government (Chinese, Russian, and US) and of what appears to be near unrestricted political power sometimes clouds my reasoning.



Oh and Hawkeye, there is no need to denigrate Joe or anyone else you disagree with. He doesn't personally attack you. If he did I'd feel different. For myself, I find Healyjes responses intelligent, informed, interesting and challenging, even when he is wrong (heh heh). I think if someone can't argue against a point with intellect and reason, it's either saying that they are either A) WRONG. or B) A DUMBASS too stupid to reason a counter point. Sometimes just reading a point which you may disagree with the 2nd go round can change your assumptions and views. That's a good thing. Challenge yourself.

One of the problems with the net is that our responses, which can come out of both our life experience and book smarts, tend to get abbreviated. I just did it with the 2 word summation "Smaller government". Whereas in person I can expound on a lot of nuances that would mean and why. This Snowden issue has a lot of nuances and depth which we would be able to better convey in person.

Regards to all
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 24, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Complicated legislation? You mean hidden legislation? Legislation is pretty strait forward. Through, it's very repetitive to say the least.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
you are correct couchmaster.

healyje wants to blame the program on bush when obama himself has supported it publicly.

but hey, obama didnt build that, he had help. and taking responsibility is not this administrations strong point.

we are recording everyone's data and would have a sh#t fit if russia and china did it to us. we have lost our moral high ground, the same moral high ground that libtards wanted back when BO was elected. instead we got the shaft.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
I certainly do not think this admin is all that great but any way you look at it this is treason.