risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 561 - 580 of total 1805 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
...secrecy seems to be more often used to hide discreditable acts than to protect justifiable sources and methods...

Well, that's a generalization that can never be proven one way or the other. Either way, this is certainly nothing new--as Winston Churchill said:

"The truth is to be protected by a bodyguard of lies."

Curt
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
How do secrets work? Don't they seem to work through manipulation and creating advantages over others?

As a teacher of business and corporate strategy, I've worked in / for various organizations that believed that their strategies, their capabilities, their assets should be kept secret. That never made sense to me. How does one get people in organizations aligned and working for the same objectives? How do stakeholders know who they're dealing with, and what's really going on? How do competitors come to know what they should be doing and how? It's my observation that too often competitors come head-to-head against one another, leading to zero-sum games. In those situations, there must be a winner and losers.

Experimental research has shown repeatedly that the best strategy in all instances is what is known as tit-for-tat. Do what the other guy does (no more, but no less), and in the long run, tit-for-tat leads to trust, credibility, and mutually beneficial interdependent actions. In time, people learn that deception, guile, and opportunism leads to dysfunctional and negative outcomes.

Transparency: be honest, up-front; put your cards on the table.

I might think that the extent that "competitors" know what our strategies are, the more they will avoid being direct competitors and finally seek out better ecological (eco-system-like) positions. Knowing that the U.S. has close tabs on worldwide internet communication will either encourage less communication or different means of communication--the latter which could then be focused on. Once an enemy has few places to go (or it gets too hard), they might be encouraged to negotiate to mutually beneficial positions.

On the other hand, if you want to stick it to your enemies, if you must be a winner at all costs, then by all means, keep secrets. Make the other guy suffer. Of course, this tends to encourage never-ending escalations and conflicts. It emphasizes pain and suffering of the other guy over learning to live with one another.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
All in all, the odds are slim Snowden has much of value beyond embarrassing program documentation and the primary damage he's doing is to our [self] image of the U.S. as a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus.

The real damage is that we pretend to be "a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus." but we are increasingly not. Because of that, Snowden did THIS country's people a favor. Maybe we can stem the tide before we ARE a China.

Damaging a false self image is a good thing. The rest of the world already knows we're two faced, but we don't get it here yet

Peace

Karl
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Throughout the important and multifarious debates that have entrained from Snowden's revelations, I've not heard a single supportable reason why it is 'necessary' for the US government to surveil and spy on every US citizen and to collect and store in perpetuity every electronic communication by every single citizen (with members of congress and select government functionaries excepted).
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
^^^
Sentimental rubbish.


US intelligence was alerted by the Russians based on their suspicions regarding the activities of one of the alleged perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing. Despite such critical intel - handed to them on a silver platter - US intelligence agencies failed to act in a manner that prevented the act of terrorism.

If the government can't make us safe utilizing specific, valuable, critical, and targeted data intel such as that, why then should we expect to be safer, more secure, and better protected from terrorism because of the wholesale collection and storage of all electronic communications of all US citizens? It's a false premise.

We are not safe. We were not protected despite the best efforts of the US intelligence community having specific intel regarding suspicions of the alleged Boston Marathon terrorist, we are not safe despite the Patriot Act being in effect and reducing our civil liberties, and we are not safe despite the gross violation of our civil liberties by the government and the NSA spying on us by collecting (for at least seven years) every single electronic communication of every US citizen and storing it in perpetuity.

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
...we are not safe despite the Patriot Act being in effect and reducing our civil liberties, and we are not safe despite the gross violation of our civil liberties by the government and the NSA spying on us by collecting (for at least seven years) every single electronic communication of every US citizen and storing it in perpetuity.

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.

Oh really?

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-18/world/40043402_1_plots-alexander-national-security-agency

Curt
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
What Snowden did was highly illegal.

But what the NSA is doing is highly unconstitutional.

WBraun

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
What Snowden did was highly illegal.


Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Man made laws are relative.

The laws of the Universe are not under the jurisdiction of stupid political monkey men playing God ......
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
That simply doesn't apply

One opinion.


We've already had unconstitutional activities from the NSA's data collection:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy



Keep your eyes open and you'll see more of the same:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/48195/aclu-nsa-lawsuit-prism-violates-the-first-and-fourth-amendments-of-the-constitution

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
If you showed yourself to have allegiances other than the tribe, you were shown the door so to speak.. It was ok to be a member and bitch to the Chief. But if you took those bitches to a neighboring tribe, you got strung out on the ground, cut constantly with knives while ants ate you alive.

So you're saying no matter what, you're in the, whatever you want to call it, the 'we can't do anything about it' group, end of story? Why do you pretend to ask questions, if this is the case? Your mind is made up?

And yes, your friends over there WILL stake you out to be eaten by ants, if you show allegiance to the 'other side.' Enjoy your company.

DMT
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Really.

Well, it would appear that some suspension of reality is required to hold that opinion. Additionally, there is absolutely no proof in either of the links you provide above that the NSA activity is unconstitutional.

Curt
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
jghedge & Curt - How do you interpret US v. Warshak to apply to this situation?
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
"The content of your emails, and the content of your phone conversations, are subject to the 4th amendment, as per the SC"

And do you think that the NSA may be engaged in reading - and when I say reading, I mean using computers to analyze - the contents of emails without warrants?

The other option is that they are merely archiving them for future use which seems highly improbable to me because it's not what "big data" is about. And the NSA and CIA are clearly interested in big data.

I understand that this is supposition, but due to the classified nature of the topic, that is what we are left with.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
A wanted man without a passport, Snowden could join ranks of unwitting airport denizens

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/26/wanted-man-without-passport-snowden-could-join-ranks-unwitting-airport-denizens/#ixzz2XLoHeFUt


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Curt; Well, it would appear that some suspension of reality is required to hold that opinion.


On the contrary, I'd suggest that the opposite is true: some suspension of reality is required to believe that because all US citizens are being spied on that as consequence you are now safe.


Nevertheless, it's not for me to make claims regarding your state of mind.
Sweet dreams for Curt courtesy of the NSA*.


Let's talk the next time reality wakes you up and shatters your illusion of safety.




*Isn't this how tyranny is being sold to the public? There's nothing reasonable in the government's position, it's an appeal to the unconscious, to our emotions and fears.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
so lets say the NSA programs have saved american lives. what was the cost per life saved?

compare that to all teh other stuff that kills people that we could be spending money on and you can get a cost per benefit and then debate intelligently rather than emotionally about cost of security versus lets say, cost of health care or even food and cost of pollution prevention.

instead the government has decided for you. don't you feel better now? i dont.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
On the contrary, I'd suggest that the opposite is true: some suspension of reality is required to believe that because all US citizens are being spied on that as consequence you are now safe.

My suspension of reality comment was in reply to this statement you made:

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.

Clearly, with 50 terror plots averted, your "for nothing" statement does require a suspension of reality.

Curt

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
http://dietagespresse.com/snowden-in-wien-gelandet-vertraut-in-tragheit-der-justiz/

"I don't have the time to translate this article from Die Tagespresse, an Viennese newspaper, but they are reporting that Snowden arrived on the first Austrian Airlines flight from Moscow this morning, and has asked for political asylum. No one else is reporting this -- yet. The headline reads: Snowden has landed in Vienna: trusts the "sluggishness" of (Austrian) justice." Quotes from Austrian immigration officers, etc."
Messages 561 - 580 of total 1805 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Review Categories
Recent Route Beta
Recent Gear Reviews