risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jun 26, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
All in all, the odds are slim Snowden has much of value beyond embarrassing program documentation and the primary damage he's doing is to our [self] image of the U.S. as a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus.

The real damage is that we pretend to be "a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus." but we are increasingly not. Because of that, Snowden did THIS country's people a favor. Maybe we can stem the tide before we ARE a China.

Damaging a false self image is a good thing. The rest of the world already knows we're two faced, but we don't get it here yet

Peace

Karl
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Throughout the important and multifarious debates that have entrained from Snowden's revelations, I've not heard a single supportable reason why it is 'necessary' for the US government to surveil and spy on every US citizen and to collect and store in perpetuity every electronic communication by every single citizen (with members of congress and select government functionaries excepted).
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
^^^
Sentimental rubbish.


US intelligence was alerted by the Russians based on their suspicions regarding the activities of one of the alleged perpetrators of the Boston Marathon bombing. Despite such critical intel - handed to them on a silver platter - US intelligence agencies failed to act in a manner that prevented the act of terrorism.

If the government can't make us safe utilizing specific, valuable, critical, and targeted data intel such as that, why then should we expect to be safer, more secure, and better protected from terrorism because of the wholesale collection and storage of all electronic communications of all US citizens? It's a false premise.

We are not safe. We were not protected despite the best efforts of the US intelligence community having specific intel regarding suspicions of the alleged Boston Marathon terrorist, we are not safe despite the Patriot Act being in effect and reducing our civil liberties, and we are not safe despite the gross violation of our civil liberties by the government and the NSA spying on us by collecting (for at least seven years) every single electronic communication of every US citizen and storing it in perpetuity.

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
...we are not safe despite the Patriot Act being in effect and reducing our civil liberties, and we are not safe despite the gross violation of our civil liberties by the government and the NSA spying on us by collecting (for at least seven years) every single electronic communication of every US citizen and storing it in perpetuity.

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.

Oh really?

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-06-18/world/40043402_1_plots-alexander-national-security-agency

Curt
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
Really.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:11pm PT
What Snowden did was highly illegal.

But what the NSA is doing is highly unconstitutional.

WBraun

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:17pm PT
What Snowden did was highly illegal.


Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Man made laws are relative.

The laws of the Universe are not under the jurisdiction of stupid political monkey men playing God ......
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
That simply doesn't apply

One opinion.


We've already had unconstitutional activities from the NSA's data collection:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warrantless_surveillance_controversy



Keep your eyes open and you'll see more of the same:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/48195/aclu-nsa-lawsuit-prism-violates-the-first-and-fourth-amendments-of-the-constitution

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:20pm PT
If you showed yourself to have allegiances other than the tribe, you were shown the door so to speak.. It was ok to be a member and bitch to the Chief. But if you took those bitches to a neighboring tribe, you got strung out on the ground, cut constantly with knives while ants ate you alive.

So you're saying no matter what, you're in the, whatever you want to call it, the 'we can't do anything about it' group, end of story? Why do you pretend to ask questions, if this is the case? Your mind is made up?

And yes, your friends over there WILL stake you out to be eaten by ants, if you show allegiance to the 'other side.' Enjoy your company.

DMT
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Really.

Well, it would appear that some suspension of reality is required to hold that opinion. Additionally, there is absolutely no proof in either of the links you provide above that the NSA activity is unconstitutional.

Curt
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
jghedge & Curt - How do you interpret US v. Warshak to apply to this situation?
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
"The content of your emails, and the content of your phone conversations, are subject to the 4th amendment, as per the SC"

And do you think that the NSA may be engaged in reading - and when I say reading, I mean using computers to analyze - the contents of emails without warrants?

The other option is that they are merely archiving them for future use which seems highly improbable to me because it's not what "big data" is about. And the NSA and CIA are clearly interested in big data.

I understand that this is supposition, but due to the classified nature of the topic, that is what we are left with.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
A wanted man without a passport, Snowden could join ranks of unwitting airport denizens

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/26/wanted-man-without-passport-snowden-could-join-ranks-unwitting-airport-denizens/#ixzz2XLoHeFUt


Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
Curt; Well, it would appear that some suspension of reality is required to hold that opinion.


On the contrary, I'd suggest that the opposite is true: some suspension of reality is required to believe that because all US citizens are being spied on that as consequence you are now safe.


Nevertheless, it's not for me to make claims regarding your state of mind.
Sweet dreams for Curt courtesy of the NSA*.


Let's talk the next time reality wakes you up and shatters your illusion of safety.




*Isn't this how tyranny is being sold to the public? There's nothing reasonable in the government's position, it's an appeal to the unconscious, to our emotions and fears.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
so lets say the NSA programs have saved american lives. what was the cost per life saved?

compare that to all teh other stuff that kills people that we could be spending money on and you can get a cost per benefit and then debate intelligently rather than emotionally about cost of security versus lets say, cost of health care or even food and cost of pollution prevention.

instead the government has decided for you. don't you feel better now? i dont.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:16pm PT
On the contrary, I'd suggest that the opposite is true: some suspension of reality is required to believe that because all US citizens are being spied on that as consequence you are now safe.

My suspension of reality comment was in reply to this statement you made:

You are merely surrendering your liberties for nothing.

Clearly, with 50 terror plots averted, your "for nothing" statement does require a suspension of reality.

Curt

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
http://dietagespresse.com/snowden-in-wien-gelandet-vertraut-in-tragheit-der-justiz/

"I don't have the time to translate this article from Die Tagespresse, an Viennese newspaper, but they are reporting that Snowden arrived on the first Austrian Airlines flight from Moscow this morning, and has asked for political asylum. No one else is reporting this -- yet. The headline reads: Snowden has landed in Vienna: trusts the "sluggishness" of (Austrian) justice." Quotes from Austrian immigration officers, etc."
crøtch

climber
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
Telcos/ISPs do not have the ability to detain you, arrest you, tax you, deport you, execute you. Telcos do not regulate commerce, your license to practice your trade, the safety of your food etc. There are reasons to have different standards. Further, I freely enter into a contractual agreement with my provider. They have a privacy policy, and if they are in violation of that privacy policy I can seek justice through the courts.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 26, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
Sometimes I can't believe I'm saying this, but listen to Hedge, Curt and Norton. You may disagree with their interpretation, but the SCOTUS has consistently adopted it.

The Fourth Amendment protects areas where we have a reasonable expectation of privacy. The courts have consistently held that business records, such as how many phone calls a person makes and to whom, are business records with no reasonable expectation of privacy.

Traffic analysis existed before WWII. The sorts of data we know (as opposed to speculate)that NSA collected is similar to that obtained in a police stake-out, noting who enters and leaves where and when. That sort of thing has never been held to constitute a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.

While recent revelations cause some of us to mistrust governmental use of information, the NSA data collection that's been "exposed" by Snowden is neither illegal nor unconstitutional. Frankly, I would have been disappointed in the NSA had it been been pursuing these generally-accepted law enforcement and intelligence opportunities.

John
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