risking his life to tell you about NSA surveillance [ot]

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couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
ps, I suspect I'd tie in with Rsin. I've tied in with Healyje more than once. Other than being overly opinionated, especially online (not as much as my last partner of over 25 years who made healyje look like a Bush sycophant, thank the good lord it was before internet and the dude really had a good heart too), he's very competent and fun when you are hanging with him and he's not being opinionated. Maybe I'll tie in again with him. Regardless, lets talk nice to each other. Rsin, any climbing shots?



Healyje invited me to hang with him this much needed cleaning party he organized. I don't get out as much and always appreciate the invitations these days. Damned good times.

Lets climb.

Lets argue about important things.

Lets drink.

Woot! America.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
And that ^^^ my friends, is why you should tie in with Rsin and spend the day out. Clearly he's smart enough not to kill you, an you may learn something of value.

Even when he's wrong:-)

ps, wrong example of grammer Rsin, it's not
"their recording it all"
although it's technically correct it's not gramatically correct and it tosses folks off they're stride. (They're stride?) it's "they're"...contraction of They Are. As in "They're recording it all", not Tiehr (possessive) recorxing it all. see how grammar makes a diffenreoj and tjh4 otjh aoijht eoijhrfeioejhf uf foeje vfiffjhf iudedseie ffifidej deijf deriudeiudiudfiu cvf deduyeu ecdjhdsiofjhjh cvfdideiue dide dedf dfodfuvf uv ? See? It matters.

WHICH IS TO SAY IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A REAL POINT AND NOT JUST BABBLE, put it in terms which done toss folks off their stride.

That is all I have.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 24, 2013 - 10:44pm PT
hedge, dont assume.

of course russia and china are hacking. but we do it better and bigger along with the data collection.

you should go back to the Dr F thread where you can have libtard group gropes.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
"most anyone whos every insisted that theyre not going to hear what im saying because i dont speak the queens english has proven to be not only an ass of unbelievable purportion in person"

This is all of us. Wholly dependent on the degree of Queens English divergence of course.

Ass's unit:-)
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
Point is that "Asses unite" should have been the correct spelling above.

See? Or lets go with "ass unit". Whatever. I only misspelled it. Right on man, let those who insist on strict Queens English piss off! Right mate? Does it mean the same? No. It makes a difference and just because every one sees Ass's unit and ignores me, is no reason for me to think that the communication issue is with THEM.

Good night everyone. My best to all ....

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 24, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
If the claim that Snowden has 4 laptops full of info is true. China now has a copy of that info. All of it. He will fly to Russia. They will have full copies soon, so that they get the "truth" or the info directly anyway, and not a Chinese edited version. Not because Snowden gave it over, but simply because he left them in his hotel room and walked down for some KFC.

Hey couchmaster, personally I expect that Snowden is smart enough to be using some high level encryption on those drives. As you mention, its well known that if you leave your electronics in your hotel in China someone will come and vacuum up the data, and I'm sure Snowden was aware of this. I doubt that the Chinese were able to grab his data. The good thing about Hong Kong is there are enough activists and a network with lots of experience in hiding dissidents and protecting themselves from the Mainland. What do I know, but I bet he was able to avoid CCP cops and spies.

I am concerned that he might have been grabbed by Russian intelligence. I saw a quote from a former KGB general, that "it would be unthinkable of our special services to miss this rare chance to talk to a U.S. defector associated with the CIA". That might be very bad news for Snowden. I guess we'll know more in a few days.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 01:16am PT
The easiest way to steer the ship back, IMO, is to demand that we have smaller government.

Except the "smaller government" you envision would never come to pass. The corporate 'anti-government' crew, who bridle at any form of government oversight and who masquerade under 'smaller government' sloganeering while invoking the sympathies of otherwise well-meaning and frustrated folk as yourself, have no agenda beyond the elimination of effective government oversight of industry.

From process, mining, and oil & gas industries attempting to end clean air and water protections to insurance and financial industries attempting to gut what paltry consumer protections exist - it's the same story. Your "smaller government" would destroy the environment, rape and pillage the average citizen worse than they already are, and be extra heavy on defense spending. And worse still, it would only be a government smaller on paper as [mercenary] government contracting shot through the roof far worse than it already has.

There will never be a 'smaller government', only a corporate government run by those who would be free of any significant oversight.

Basically they are bankrupting YOU to pay for things like this extra-constitutional illegal monitoring of everything you and I do.

I've yet to see any evidence of 'extra-constitutionally' illegal monitoring so far - all the monitoring discussed thus far is entirely constitutional under the Patriot Act. I understand a lot of folks don't like it and feel it's 'extra-constitutional', but it is in fact entirely legal so far until hard evidence is produced otherwise.

I get the sense a lot of folks here think quite 'ala carte' as opposed to understanding the larger picture in context. And that context goes back a good ways to our interactions in the Mideast since WWII (which essentially attempted to treat the Mideast like Latin America) and in our entirely one-sided support of Israel.

You simply can't act as stupid as we have across the region for decades - then top it off by destabilizing the region with one war of mis-communication followed by two preemptive ones driven by delusional fantasy - and then assume there aren't going to be profound, extensive, and long-lasting consequences. And, when you push such an agenda with decades of fear, you further hamstring our ability to make reasoned and reasonable political and military responses in the rubble and ashes of the aftermath.

And that's where we are today regardless of where you look across North Africa and the Mideast - a complete frigging mess where there are no good answers for any of the players. Not for us, not Iran, not Russia, not China, and certainly not for the countries, tribes, sects, and citizens of the Mideast. The only parties you can make a case for having marginally benefited from our investment of trillions of dollars in the region are Iran, China, and any guy on the street with a passing fancy for highly effective IEDs.

And this is the world and extended consequences we, as a nation, and the Obama administration, inherited from BushCo and their delusional neocon fantasy. Don't like drone attacks? Don't like NSA Bluffdale? Don't like debacle sweeping around the SE Mediterranean coast? Bummer dude - but these are all extended and intertwined consequences and results of one US misstep after another in the region culminating in the world as you see it today both at home and abroad.

And make no mistake about it, the pooch has now been screwed on grand scale such that no president, of any party, is going to clean this frigging mess up in under a couple of decades and that's only barring us not continuing to be colossal f*#kups. So, it doesn't really matter whether Obama, Mitt, or Ron was or is president, there would be little difference today because the options are now so incredibly limited and the threats to our nation and interests considerably shifted in both scope and method. Romney and Paul would both have signed every single intelligence appropriations bill that crossed their desks. Both would be out of Iraq and Afghanistan on the same time-table as Obama. Gitmo would still be in business because of a pervasive climate fear driven by one republican campaign after another.

In such a climate of fear, what no president can [politically] afford is to look like they aren't doing everything possible to protect the nation - even when, in fact, their options are unfortunately quite limited. So yes, Obama has signed the intelligence appropriations and followed the military's advice to punish the Taliban's leadership wherever they operate from (which means Pakistan) and to keep beheading 'al qaeda' / Jihad Di leaders as they step up (regardless of citizenship). Do I like any of it? Absolutely not. But again, our options are uncomfortably slim and doing nothing is not one of them.

BushCo left us with a highly-destabilized Mideast and a sophistication in asymmetric warfare never before seen - and all of it now propelled by technology. And that is happening against a backdrop of our having largely taken our eye off the strategic geopolitical ball; the ascendancy of a young wealthy class of technocratic and highly nationalistic Chinese leaders intent on restoring China's dominion over Asia and the Western Pacific; and a Russia at a number of crossroads attempting to restore its own power.

The Mideast, being highly-destabilized with no good options for anyone, especially when viewed against that strategic geopolitical backdrop, makes for an unpredictable and dangerous world with everyone trying to stay in and keep up with the game. It's a situation tailor-made for bad-judgment, mistakes, and serious mis-communication by any and all parties including us.

We'll be lucky if we've seen the worst of it...

[ P.S. Couch, if I ever do manage to climb again you're always welcome. You're one of the most competent and capable climbers I've roped up with even if somewhat naively optimistic on the 'smaller government' front. ]

kunlun_shan: Hey couchmaster, personally I expect that Snowden is smart enough to be using some high level encryption on those drives.

I seriously doubt Snowden has anything of any value to a foreign government, but rather just more program documentation / evidence embarrassing to ours. There's nothing new or novel about what the NSA is doing technologically that the Russians and Israelis (and by that extension the Chinese) can't replicate without any info from Snowden. What they do all envy is our telcom infrastructure which makes the surveillance so much easier than in their countries, though that is changing with the shift to cellphones.

But 'secrets' of any value - encrypted or otherwise? Highly doubtful. He's out to disclose the scope and scale of our surveillance program, not its content. And even if he had that intent, it's incredibly unlikely he had access to any of the kinds of summary intelligence archives Manning had.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:31am PT
I gather that he arranged for a talented filmmaker to shoot the Greenwald interview.

Yeah, but what's the big deal about that? The guy is smart, otherwise we wouldn't be hearing about him.

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/10/qa_with_laura_poitras_the_woman_behind_the_nsa_scoops/

So how did this all begin?

I was originally contacted in January, anonymously.

By Edward Snowden?

Well, I didn’t know who it was.



I'm looking forward to the documentary!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 03:59am PT
gigabytes of intelligence info

Again, more like gigabytes of program documentation, none of it particularly valuable to Russia, China, or anyone else other than it's use in painting us a something other than the 'Land of the Free' and that is a mirror we've turned on ourselves with no one else to blame. Again, bummer if we don't like what we see in the mirror.

And there's been more than enough whistle blowing over the past decade culminating in the Manning/Wikileaks affair for anyone with half a wit to figure out what the likely repercussions are going to be, who to best contact, and what represents as plausible an exit plan as possible (and those options are limited).

Now you can question his judgment on some of those calls, but given the number of cases where the media has been backed down and courts stonewalled by evidence being classified he must have known he wasn't going to get a fair day in court on a matter like this in the U.S. and that's also on us.

I personally think he thought it through about as well as one can given his decision meant an end to life as he knew it. And he's in a tough spot at this point, as I suspect Iceland isn't going to take him in given their financial situation and all the other alternatives are way downhill from there.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:46am PT
azzhat is stalled in moscow. being debreifed no doubt. nothing more than a common traitor.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:59am PT
Well, traitor would be one word for it, but I'd be using that word against half of BushCo before applying it to the likes of Snowden.

 Dick Cheney
 Donald Rumsfeld
 Paul Wolfowitz
 Douglas Feith
 Elliot Abrams
 Richard Armitage
 Richard Perle
 John Bolton
 John Yoo
 Alberto Gonzales
 Karl Rove

Traitors to a man...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:12am PT
It is really simple. The guy had a top secret security clearance and he leaked a bunch of classified NSA sh#t = traitor
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jun 25, 2013 - 07:32am PT
A few of those bush azzhats fit the bill as well.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Jun 25, 2013 - 10:56am PT
i saw yesterday some new report of a whole 100K that have signed a petition for amnesty for snottface-snowden..Not a good batting average for billions.


Your average man is SICK of CHINA.. So in that vein, he couldnt have ran to a worse choice. He acted like the high school drop out he is.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 25, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
Those NSA files where merely a warm-up act and the main event will be much more damaging to the US and her allies. He will be selling national secrets of encryption capabilities, data gathering techniques and locations of signals intelligence stations located thought the world.

Highly unlikely. Again, our "encryption capabilities" and "data gathering techniques" are not particularly special, interesting, or secret.

All aspects of cryptography, including encryption attacks, are active fields of worldwide research and we have no particular corner on the best minds in the field, many of which hail from Russia and Israel. So scratch "encryption capabilities" off the list of things of interest Snowden might reveal.

Similarly, "data gathering techniques" are technically pedestrian at this point and the collection loci are patently obvious to anyone familiar with communications technologies. The combination of technology, infrastructure, and accessibility by and large dictate the location of "signals intelligence stations" and so their locations are not terribly difficult to deduce by anyone knowledgeable in the craft.

And data archiving and analysis are basically off-the-shelf and open source with the ability to operationally scale out data centers in a reliable manner being the real challenge (something we do well, but that can't be conveyed on a thumb drive).

All in all, the odds are slim Snowden has much of value beyond embarrassing program documentation and the primary damage he's doing is to our [self] image of the U.S. as a open society free from intrusive and overarching state apparatus.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Jun 25, 2013 - 02:53pm PT
CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin made an interesting comment yesterday that I think is spot on. His comment was essentially that the Snowden affair is no longer a legal issue, but rather one of politics and foreign policy.

Curt
WTF

climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
Lets hope those Commies have his balls hooked up to a very large generator of some sort and are getting the info they want via huge amounts of testicular pain.



Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Jun 25, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
Seen on the back of a T-shirt of a fat man waddling into Walmart...
Your average man is SICK of CHINA.

China is the next big Boogeyman. Its no different than any other boogeyman... its the Big Baddie that reactionaries, crackpots, idealists and opportunists use to stir people into unthinking emotional responses.

China... BOO!

DMT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Jun 25, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin made an interesting comment yesterday that I think is spot on. His comment was essentially that the Snowden affair is no longer a legal issue, but rather one of politics and foreign policy.

Curt

something we agree on. until they catch him it will be a huge political issue that the US is losing.

we look like a bunch of incompetents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/26/world/snowden.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0


Putin Rules Out Extradition for Snowden in Russia Airport

By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN, PETER BAKER and RICK GLADSTONE

Published: June 25, 2013 502 Comments

MOSCOW — President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia confirmed directly for the first time on Tuesday that Edward J. Snowden, the fugitive former American national security contractor, was staying temporarily in an international transit area at a Moscow airport, and Mr. Putin appeared to rule out American requests for his extradition to the United States.

Speaking at a news conference while on an official visit to Finland, Mr. Putin offered no new information on where Mr. Snowden might be headed from the transit area of Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow, where he has been ensconced, out of public view, for the past two days. But he said Mr. Snowden had broken no Russian laws.

“Mr. Snowden is a free man,” Mr. Putin said, “and the sooner he chooses his final destination, the better it will be both for us and for him.”

Mr. Putin also said Mr. Snowden's arrival "was a complete surprise for us" and that as a transit passenger, “he doesn’t need a visa or other documents. As a transit passenger, he has a right to buy a ticket and fly wherever he wants.”

He sought to refute suggestions that Russian security officials might be talking to Mr. Snowden, who is believed to be carrying a trove of American intelligence data on laptop computers and thumb drives. Mr. Putin said they “have never worked with Mr. Snowden and are not working with him now.”

The remarks by Mr. Putin were the most definitive and extensive from the Russian government on Mr. Snowden, whose successful effort, so far, to elude his American pursuers has captivated global attention, showed the limits of American power and strained American relations with both Russia and China. Mr. Snowden flew to Moscow on Sunday from Hong Kong despite an American request that the authorities there arrest him.

Mr. Putin said American accusations that Russia was abetting a fugitive “are just a nightmare and nonsense,” and he appeared to end any possibility that Russia would extradite Mr. Snowden.

“We can extradite foreign nationals only to those countries with which we have relevant international agreements on the extradition of criminals,” Mr. Putin said. “We have no such agreement with the United States.”

While in Russian territory, Mr. Putin said, “Mr. Snowden, thank God, has not committed any crimes.”

Mr. Putin spoke hours after the Russian foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, chastised the United States for its demands regarding Mr. Snowden, who has been charged with violating American espionage laws by revealing secret information on intelligence-gathering. He and his allies describe him as a whistle-blower whose revelations have exposed what they called the United States government’s invasion of privacy around the world.

Mr. Lavrov said Mr. Snowden had not crossed the Russian border, which appeared at first to be a denial that he was in Russia. But it also was a technical way of saying Mr. Snowden was in the international passenger transit area, a restricted zone where foreign travelers do not get their passports stamped and do not pass through immigration checkpoints as they await flight connections to other countries.

American officials, including Secretary of State John Kerry, lashed out with unusual force on Monday against China for allowing Mr. Snowden to leave Hong Kong, against Russia for permitting him safe transit and against Ecuador for declaring that it is actively considering Mr. Snowden’s request for political asylum. The Americans have demanded that he be seized and repatriated.

“He didn’t cross the Russian border, and we consider the attempts we are seeing to accuse the Russian side of violating United States law as completely ungrounded and unacceptable, or nearly a conspiracy accompanied by threats against us,” Mr. Lavrov said, speaking to reporters here after a meeting with the Algerian foreign minister. He added, “There are no legal grounds for this kind of behavior from American officials toward us.”

Later in the day Mr. Kerry, speaking to reporters while visiting Saudi Arabia, sought to tone down the angry exchange of words with his Russian counterpart, with whom he has sought to cultivate a good relationship. “We are not looking for a confrontation,” Mr. Kerry said.

The comments by Mr. Putin and Mr. Lavrov were the first by top Russian officials about Mr. Snowden since Mr. Snowden’s reported arrival at Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow on Sunday. Employees of Aeroflot, the Russian airline, said Mr. Snowden had been booked on an afternoon flight Monday to Havana, but he did not board and the aircraft left without him.

Ecuador confirmed that it had received an asylum request and had provided documents allowing Mr. Snowden to travel there. Mr. Snowden’s American passport has been revoked.

Russian officials on Monday said that they had no information about Mr. Snowden, which seemed unlikely at the time given that the Russian police took the unusual step of standing on the tarmac surrounding the plane that reportedly was supposed to take him to Cuba. Russian authorities also cordoned off the gate and had threatened to take telephones from journalists preparing to board the flight.

The sharp tone of comments by Mr. Kerry and other American officials was surprising, in part because there was no reason to believe that they could force Russia to cooperate and because it is highly unlikely that, if the roles were reversed, the United States would readily repatriate a Russian fugitive security official reportedly carrying computers filled with government secrets.

The United States and Russia, fierce rivals on intelligence matters dating to the cold war, have long shown an ability to maintain their broader bilateral relationship in the face of occasional disputes over espionage incidents, including the arrest last month in Moscow of an American Embassy employee accused of working as an operative for the Central Intelligence Agency. But Mr. Lavrov’s pointed remarks indicated that the diplomatic contretemps was taking a nasty turn.

On Monday, the United States accused Russia of ignoring the law in allowing Mr. Snowden to travel through the Moscow airport and sharply criticized Russia, China and Ecuador over their records on Internet freedom.

Mr. Lavrov said on Tuesday, “We have no connection with Mr. Snowden, nor with his relation toward the American justice system, nor with his movement around the world. He chose his own route and we, like most of those here, found out about this from the press.”

The anti-secrecy organization WikiLeaks, which says it has helped Mr. Snowden evade the American authorities, has said that he is safe and healthy but has declined to pinpoint his whereabouts. The White House has said it believes that Mr. Snowden is still in Moscow.

American officials also openly mocked China and Russia on Monday as states that repress free speech and transparency and therefore are hardly apt refuges for someone fighting government secrecy in the United States.

“I wonder if Mr. Snowden chose China and Russia as assistants in his flight from justice because they’re such powerful bastions of Internet freedom,” Mr. Kerry said sarcastically during a stop in New Delhi.

President Obama’s press secretary, Jay Carney, said Mr. Snowden’s chosen destinations indicated “his true motive throughout has been to injure the national security of the United States.”

The strong words went beyond typical diplomatic language and underscored the growing ramifications of the case for the United States. The Obama administration’s inability, at least for now, to influence China, Russia and countries in Latin America that may accept Mr. Snowden for asylum, like Ecuador, brought home the limits of American power around the world.

Ecuador’s foreign minister, Ricardo Patiño, criticized the United States on Monday for its pursuit of Mr. Snowden. “The one who is denounced pursues the denouncer,” Mr. Patiño said at a news conference in Hanoi, Vietnam, a stop on a previously scheduled diplomatic visit to Asia. “The man who tries to provide light and transparency to issues that affect everyone is pursued by those who should be giving explanations about the denunciations that have been presented.”

Ecuador’s president, Rafael Correa, wrote on his Twitter account, “We will analyze very responsibly the Snowden case and with absolute sovereignty will make the decision we consider the most appropriate.” The United States remains Ecuador’s leading trading partner, but Washington’s influence in Quito has been slight since Mr. Correa became president in 2007. He has repeatedly flouted and tweaked the United States, by, for example, stopping American antidrug flights out of a military base in Manta, and expelling the American ambassador in 2011 after WikiLeaks cables suggested she felt Mr. Correa had tolerated police corruption.

A range of American officials, including the deputy secretary of state and the F.B.I. director, spent Monday reaching out to their Russian counterparts seeking cooperation, without any apparent result. Mr. Snowden, who spent Sunday night in the transit zone of Sheremetyevo Airport, did not board the flight for Havana and he made no public appearance or statement.

American intelligence officials remained deeply concerned that Mr. Snowden could make public more documents disclosing details of the National Security Agency’s collection system or that his documents could be obtained by foreign intelligence services, with or without his cooperation.

Technical experts have been carrying out a forensic analysis of the trail he left in N.S.A. computer systems, trying to determine what he had access to as a systems administrator for Booz Allen Hamilton, a United States government contractor, and what he may have downloaded, officials said.

The South China Morning Post reported Monday night on its Web site that in an interview, Mr. Snowden said he had specifically sought the job at Booz Allen so he could collect information about the N.S.A.'s secret surveillance programs to release to news outlets.

Glenn Greenwald, a columnist for The Guardian, has said Mr. Snowden gave him thousands of documents, only a tiny fraction of which were published. Many may be of limited public interest, but they could be of great value to a foreign intelligence service, which could get a more complete idea of the security agency’s technical abilities and how to evade its net, officials said.




David M. Herszenhorn reported from Moscow, Peter Baker from Washington and Rick Gladstone from New York. Reporting was contributed by Ellen Barry and Andrew Roth from Moscow; Scott Shane, Steven Lee Myers and Charlie Savage from Washington; Michael R. Gordon from Jidda, Saudi Arabia; William Neuman from Quito, Ecuador; and Victoria Burnett from Havana.

WBraun

climber
Jun 25, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
Nobody knows whats going on behind this whole thing.

Just 1600 news outlets all owned by 6 news corporations all guessing and making up sh!t.

Americans are so s ........

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