Hey, Hosers, why is this such a secret, eh?


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Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:24am PT
Electric Cars are the happy - happy bromide, flung at the face of skepticism.

Mike is correct in asking about where the juice comes from and how it offers salvation from pain...

Personally, I was fed fish (salmon) in a simpler time. It took no intelligence to understand that fish protein was GOOD and that recent food realities as explained, were suspect...

What transportation, commerce and the all important delivery to market suggests, is that some one's gonna lose...

Burp, if you can feel happy about it all !

Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:40am PT
Not to mention all the unfortunate amounts of mercury in them these days!! :(

Apr 4, 2013 - 02:55pm PT

What gives you faith that the Site C Dam and the various pipeline proposals are an alternate choice ?

What is stopping Site C, etc. from being pursued as a complement to current exploitation ?

Site C will be stopped by first nations

NDP have already said they will not go ahead with Site C, main reason being lack of local skilled workers.

However they have not proposed how they will deliver enough power to the new 3-5 LNG plants

Not sure what you mean by alternate choices?

Enbridge and Kinder Morgan are dead, Horgan has said this and this is NDP's platform. However they will continue to allow environmental reviews to go ahead as good faith.

NDP want to build pipelines to Kitimat of LNG, Christy recently changed the Clean energy act to allow LNG exports to be declared clean.

Personally, I would rather see RoR than pipelines, site C and fracking. Not to mention LNG is not green and contributes GHG. Furthermore access to cheap carbon based fuels will prolong, possibly detrimentally, our path to 100% green renewable energy.

The price of power must be increased to represent the true cost it has on our environment, our heritage assets have been great but at the same time have given us a false idea of what power actually costs.
Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Do you work for accenture or something??

Apr 4, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Nope, I dont even know who that is. But I do care about the environment and conservation
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 4, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
"Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse."
- Hoser

This is the context for what I meant by alternate choices.
Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
I already posted that they own 25% of bchydro. Do you actually read anything anyone else says??

Ruining every decent sized river in bc is good for our environment? You drink water too don't you?

Fracking is horrible also. None of these are solutions. The solution to our power needs is stop selling it for less than we are buying it for!! They only need more power so the can continue selling it!!

Apr 4, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
"Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse."

Right, yes I believe folks who stand in the way of new green energy plans may find that alternatives such as Site C and Fracking to be much worse.

I read what you say Mike but it just sounds like you read the Province or something.

Can you show me where it says we only own 75% of our public utility ?


They only need more power so the can continue selling it!!

Unfortunately your statements are misinformed, your call to power 5 year contracts, that IPP's can choose who they sell electricity too, that BC isnt a net importer of power for the last decade, that we have anywhere near the amount of electricity needed for new industry, mining, fracking what have you.
Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Ok. So after reading this report;


I understand that my argument is flawed.

The Long Term Acquisition Plan (BC Hydro 2008a) was filed prior to the government’s announcement to reduce the availability of the Burrard thermal gas plant, and so the forgoing figures include the capacity of that generating plant. The total capacity associated with thermal and market purchases was 950 MW, of which Burrard plant capacity accounts for 900 MW – intended market purchases are quite small. Interestingly, the System Capacity Supply includes 656 MW of Electricity Purchase Agreements, excluding the Alcan LTEPA. However, “as of April 1, 2010, BC Hydro has 63 Electricity Purchase Agreements (EPAs) with IPPs whose projects are currently delivering power to BC Hydro. These projects represent 10,343 GWh of annual supply and 2,629 MW of capacity” (BC Hydro 2010a, p.1). Removing Alcan’s capacity from BC Hydro’s list of EPAs reduces total available IPP capacity to 1,733 MW, a figure substantially greater than the 656 MW enumerated in the System Capacity Supply table (BC Hydro 2008a, Table 6‐14)

According to this, the total power generation attributed to ipp's is still pretty minimal which in my opinion does not justify the disruption of the ecosystems of our rivers. Instead we would be much better off to purchase more of our power from Alberta at night when they are under capacity.

As to my point about accenture;

On April 1, 2003, a number of back-office functions, representing approximately 1500 employees, became the responsibility of BC Hydro's joint venture partner, Accenture Business Services of British Columbia. These functions include Business Support Services, Customer Services, Human Resource Services, Building and Office Services, Payroll and Accounts Payable Services, Financial Systems Services and Purchasing Services.

Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Accenture's BC Hydro Contract Way over Budget

Still, some numbers have been made public. A news release issued by BC Hydro on Feb 28, 2003, described it as "a ten year, $1.45 billion agreement designed to save BC Hydro customers $250 million and expand Accenture's ability to offer ... services to utilities across North America."

Upon closer examination, it is evident that the $1.45 billion BC Hydro contracted to pay Accenture was in real (that is, inflation-adjusted) dollars.

To determine how much Accenture -- actually, its subsidiary, Accenture Business Services (ABS), which was set up to handle the contract -- has been paid by BC Hydro (and affiliates) over the last six fiscal years, let us consult the Crown corporation's annual Financial Information Act filings. (BC Hydro's most-recent FIA filing is for fiscal 2008/09. The 2009/10 document, for the fiscal year that ended this past March 31, should be published later this summer.)

Between 2003/04 and 2008/09, BC Hydro directly paid ABS more than $1.09 billion. Over the same period, two Hydro subsidiaries, Powerex and BCH Services Asset Corp, were dinged for a further $6.4 million and $11.3 million respectively.

On top of that, BC Transmission Corporation (spun-out of Hydro in 2003, and soon to be re-integrated back into its former parent) paid ABS another $57.4 million.

The grand total paid by BC Hydro to Accenture Business Services in the first six years of the 10-year contract -- $1,168,441,001.

Two years and hundreds of millions short

This is a stunning figure, insofar as it means that British Columbians already (in just six years) have paid all but $281.6 million of the $1.45 billion contracted back in 2003 with Accenture Business Services. At this rate, Accenture will have received the entire $1.45 billion in about two months from today; that is, some time in early August.

By then, the 10-year contract still will have about two-and-a-half years to run. To stay on budget -- that is, to ensure British Columbians realize the promised savings of $250 million -- Accenture will have to provide outsourced services over that period without compensation.

How likely is that?


Sorry Rielly for completly hijacking this thread..

Apr 4, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
So we do buy coal energy from Alta at night, but why would you want to continue to buy coal energy, dont you think that dirty carbon based energy is much worse than RoR?

I just dont see how you can say no RoR but yes to coal burning, the dirtiest energy around

Just so you know this is NDP's plan as well, to increase the amount of coal energy we buy, however that goes against the clean energy act to be 93% green.


Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
Mikey me boyo, I wouldn't have expected otherwise. However, some Republican
friends in W Van, yes, those kind of Republicans, are gonna pay you a
visit if'n you don't learn to properly spell my name! How are your kneecaps?

Actually, yous guys are providing worthwhile content and in a fairly
commendable manner I might add.

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 4, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
So we do buy coal energy from Alta at night, but why would you want to continue to buy coal energy, dont you think that dirty carbon based energy is much worse than RoR?
Do the math.
AB needs X KW at peak demand.
BC needs Y KW at peak demand.
If BC can contribute energy to AB during the day, then AB can build smaller coal plants.
But BC only has so much water in the reservoirs, so they buy excess AB power at night.
If the AB coal plants could shut down at night, then this trading would not matter.
Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 4, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
Ya, Ab is still gonna run the plants so the net result is more co2 if we don't buy from them. Ror isn't green. Ruining ecosystems isn't green. That's like saying the hydrogen busses we have in whistler are green when the hydrogen is a) produced with coal fired power and b) shipped all the way from quebec.

It's more environmentally sensitive to use resources we currently have then mess up a bunch of rivers which don't end up netting much power anyways!!

Is this green?

Taku River Tlingit First Nation

How about this?

Credit intrawebz
Credit intrawebz

There are currently 79 of these projects under construction in this province. Most are in previously pristine valleys. You prefer this to burning some coal?

Sorry Reilly! Please don't mess up my knees, they're just starting to work again!


Apr 4, 2013 - 11:12pm PT
Ya, Ab is still gonna run the plants so the net result is more co2 if we don't buy from them

I dont understand?

I guess you have to make a choice between burning carbon based fuels that will ultimately kill all the rivers or, make a very small foot print in select areas to provide green energy that will help provide much needed time to transition to a more sustainable energy source. Would you like me to post some pictures of coal or tar sand mining?

How about climate change pictures from burning coal, how about the recent report out of China where coal burning is killing people and the environment...

Mike, its our generation that needs to make some tough choices and we need to do it now, staying with the status quo is not an option. Educate yourself, why are we going to LNG, the worst thing in the world would be for us or the Chinese or anyone to gain any more access to cheap carbon based fuel.

There is only one reason why we have not transitioned to other more sustainable fuels, because people dont want to pay more.

Would you be willing to pay more for sustainable energy?


What she means about NDP wanting a moratorium is that the NDP think there is a de-facto moratorium because they dont know how to provide the power to more than one or two LNG plants.

What Horgan means about the GHG emissions is that depending on what type of power they choose it could put us over our limits as laid out in the clean energy act. For instance if the LNG plants power themselves by burning LNG. But considering they just changed the definition of clean energy for exports they may change its meaning here as well.

These are the alternatives when politicians are faced with public outcry about small scale 100% green energy projects that cost more.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
Stir it up, I say...

There is no small footprint when the shoe takes many indelible steps into a river or it's tributary creeks. The logical allegory there is like using Roundup or other brands of 2,4D to just clean up the weeds as an esthetic solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

The reality of run of river projects is that the original legislative measure was for energy production to promote and convenience development of placer mining claims.

There was never any intent to achieve best practices as it concerns less troubling energy developments branded "green", or as pursued these days as "greenish", sort of...

Run of the River hydro electric projects were developmental, legal loopholes discovered in the Mining Act and exploited by Gordon Campbell's cronies as something it was not intended for but quite lucrative just the same.

If anyone should feel that a possible NDP government winning the next election is going to bring idealistic happiness, don't hold your breath. That's because turning blue in the face isn't equivalent to turning green.


Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
The study, published in the periodical Noise and Health, found that a random sample of residents living within 1.4 km of wind turbines in two Maine communities suffered more from impaired mental health and sleep deprivation than those who lived at least 3.3 km away.


Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out that a constant

"Whoop Whoop, Whoop "

24/7 might drive one a little batty?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:16am PT
As an addendum,

Hoser, stop professing a lack of understanding to what others point out.

If you want an argument about something you hold dear, you must basically understand what your opponent presents and then shred it.

Don't be coy.

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:34am PT
Big Mike....What did you call Riley to get him so Reilled up? RJ
Big Mike

Trad climber
Apr 6, 2013 - 12:39am PT
Exactly rj
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