Hey, Hosers, why is this such a secret, eh?

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Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
The whole reason we are going to pay more is bc hydro is obligated to pay these guys triple the price of the legacy projects for the first 5 years and then after that, they get to choose who they sell it to and at what price they sell it! We are giving away our most precious resource, water for nothing!!!

you cannot absolutely cannot compare energy prices from dams built 4 decades ago to new energy services we need now. Further more there is no other customer IPP's can sell to besides BC Hydro

You can quote Horgan if you like, but keep in mind that he is going hard very hard to build new LNG pipelines to Kitimat and is going hard to build many many new mines in NE bc...so he has his reasons to not like IPP

He is your new energy minister by the way, whether you vote for his party or not

IF we dont need the power why are we still looking at site C...

Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
We buy Altas coal power at night because its too expensive for them to shut it down, we have been a net importer of power for over a decade now
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
A movie made by a local kayaker who was shocked when he found out what they were doing to the Ashlu.
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Full Version here
http://www.downstreammedia.net/TheRangeLife/Video/49megawattsweb.mov

Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
So he would rather flood 9000 + hectares of land in the NE?

Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse. Do you really want to continue to buy coal power from Alta?

Wouldnt you rather pay more for green power? Do you buy the cheapest meat and fruit around or do you go organic.

No matter what there will always be a foot print, but we can decide how big that is.

So, NDP will build LNG lines to Kitimat.

THey are now in the process of changing the LNG lines that go east to carry tar sand oil...what happens when they decide to do that here.

Careful for what you wish for, RoR may be a pretty good deal in comparison
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
Since you posted 20 mins later obviously you didn't watch the full video. Killing every stream in this province is not acceptable. Period. No other government in the world would even think of this option. I'm not advocating the other ones. Just saying that selling our water for 5 to 10k a pop is just stupid.

If we didn't sell power, we would be sufficient. Raping our rivers is not the solution.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 06:33pm PT
With only 35 million of y'all in the third largest country on earth blessed
with bountiful everything I don't get why y'all aren't all driving Lambos
and pimping big time.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
I watched it before mike, unfortunately the new LNG mines require us to find more power.

personally I would rather spread out the demands on our environment by utilizing RoR, wind and solar.

I dont think the LNG path or the major devastation caused by Site C is a good alternative. But with either governments, libs or the NDP we really dont have much choice.

Libs want to cap the carbon tax, for the next 5 years.. that effectively wipes out any new innovation and the NDP what to frack.

So you will get your RoR to stop but in lieu you will get pipelines... at some point RoR and LNG were your choices but since the public poo pooed RoR we get pipelines and fracking...hardly a better alternative and very very far from being green.

Thats why I say, be careful what you stand in the way of...the alternativs may be worse, and in this case I believe they are
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ding ding ding!!! Jim wins! Everyone's getting screwed!!! That's how they roll!!! That's Reilly's answer too!!

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:08am PT
Coal plants never shut down, day or night.

True, large power plants can not be shut down because it takes many hours to bring them back online. That does not mean that they are being used efficiently. They have to keep them running but producing very little power (basically idling). Peaker plants are smaller plants designed to supplement the large power plants during times of high demand, they can be fired up very quickly. The state has a TOU (Time of Use) plan to offer incentives to use power at night at a lower rate. This is a good way to get people to charge electric vehiles between 10 pm and 5 am.

The charts below show the available power and the actual demand for power through the day. You can see the variation in demand. The renewable chart shows renewable resources, solar delivers when it is needed most, wind peaks at night and drops off during the day.


mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:18am PT
You need a beer run, eh? But exactly where, please. We're on a budget.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:39am PT
Shhhhh....

It's not true. It's an "Export A-pril Fool" joke...

You just gotta have hoses, not electric cords, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bliyct4_6o

A different kind of poverty...

Where's my gasoline gone?

The many-colored beast has et it all up.

BC rocks
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2013 - 12:58am PT
At least it was actually called the 'Canuck'. Nyuk, nyuk...
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:40am PT
Not to mention all the unfortunate amounts of mercury in them these days!! :(
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 02:55pm PT
Hoser,

What gives you faith that the Site C Dam and the various pipeline proposals are an alternate choice ?

What is stopping Site C, etc. from being pursued as a complement to current exploitation ?

Site C will be stopped by first nations

NDP have already said they will not go ahead with Site C, main reason being lack of local skilled workers.

However they have not proposed how they will deliver enough power to the new 3-5 LNG plants

Not sure what you mean by alternate choices?

Enbridge and Kinder Morgan are dead, Horgan has said this and this is NDP's platform. However they will continue to allow environmental reviews to go ahead as good faith.

NDP want to build pipelines to Kitimat of LNG, Christy recently changed the Clean energy act to allow LNG exports to be declared clean.

Personally, I would rather see RoR than pipelines, site C and fracking. Not to mention LNG is not green and contributes GHG. Furthermore access to cheap carbon based fuels will prolong, possibly detrimentally, our path to 100% green renewable energy.

The price of power must be increased to represent the true cost it has on our environment, our heritage assets have been great but at the same time have given us a false idea of what power actually costs.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Do you work for accenture or something??
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
Nope, I dont even know who that is. But I do care about the environment and conservation
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
I already posted that they own 25% of bchydro. Do you actually read anything anyone else says??

Ruining every decent sized river in bc is good for our environment? You drink water too don't you?

Fracking is horrible also. None of these are solutions. The solution to our power needs is stop selling it for less than we are buying it for!! They only need more power so the can continue selling it!!
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
"Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse."
 Hoser

Right, yes I believe folks who stand in the way of new green energy plans may find that alternatives such as Site C and Fracking to be much worse.

I read what you say Mike but it just sounds like you read the Province or something.

Can you show me where it says we only own 75% of our public utility ?

http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/EPD/PowerDev/Utilities/Pages/default.aspx

They only need more power so the can continue selling it!!

Unfortunately your statements are misinformed, your call to power 5 year contracts, that IPP's can choose who they sell electricity too, that BC isnt a net importer of power for the last decade, that we have anywhere near the amount of electricity needed for new industry, mining, fracking what have you.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
Ok. So after reading this report;

http://web.uvic.ca/~kooten/documents/BCgeneratingSystem.pdf

I understand that my argument is flawed.

The Long Term Acquisition Plan (BC Hydro 2008a) was filed prior to the government’s announcement to reduce the availability of the Burrard thermal gas plant, and so the forgoing figures include the capacity of that generating plant. The total capacity associated with thermal and market purchases was 950 MW, of which Burrard plant capacity accounts for 900 MW – intended market purchases are quite small. Interestingly, the System Capacity Supply includes 656 MW of Electricity Purchase Agreements, excluding the Alcan LTEPA. However, “as of April 1, 2010, BC Hydro has 63 Electricity Purchase Agreements (EPAs) with IPPs whose projects are currently delivering power to BC Hydro. These projects represent 10,343 GWh of annual supply and 2,629 MW of capacity” (BC Hydro 2010a, p.1). Removing Alcan’s capacity from BC Hydro’s list of EPAs reduces total available IPP capacity to 1,733 MW, a figure substantially greater than the 656 MW enumerated in the System Capacity Supply table (BC Hydro 2008a, Table 6‐14)

According to this, the total power generation attributed to ipp's is still pretty minimal which in my opinion does not justify the disruption of the ecosystems of our rivers. Instead we would be much better off to purchase more of our power from Alberta at night when they are under capacity.

As to my point about accenture;

On April 1, 2003, a number of back-office functions, representing approximately 1500 employees, became the responsibility of BC Hydro's joint venture partner, Accenture Business Services of British Columbia. These functions include Business Support Services, Customer Services, Human Resource Services, Building and Office Services, Payroll and Accounts Payable Services, Financial Systems Services and Purchasing Services.



http://www.bchydro.com/toolbar/about/who_we_are/history.html
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
Accenture's BC Hydro Contract Way over Budget

Still, some numbers have been made public. A news release issued by BC Hydro on Feb 28, 2003, described it as "a ten year, $1.45 billion agreement designed to save BC Hydro customers $250 million and expand Accenture's ability to offer ... services to utilities across North America."

Upon closer examination, it is evident that the $1.45 billion BC Hydro contracted to pay Accenture was in real (that is, inflation-adjusted) dollars.

To determine how much Accenture -- actually, its subsidiary, Accenture Business Services (ABS), which was set up to handle the contract -- has been paid by BC Hydro (and affiliates) over the last six fiscal years, let us consult the Crown corporation's annual Financial Information Act filings. (BC Hydro's most-recent FIA filing is for fiscal 2008/09. The 2009/10 document, for the fiscal year that ended this past March 31, should be published later this summer.)

Between 2003/04 and 2008/09, BC Hydro directly paid ABS more than $1.09 billion. Over the same period, two Hydro subsidiaries, Powerex and BCH Services Asset Corp, were dinged for a further $6.4 million and $11.3 million respectively.

On top of that, BC Transmission Corporation (spun-out of Hydro in 2003, and soon to be re-integrated back into its former parent) paid ABS another $57.4 million.

The grand total paid by BC Hydro to Accenture Business Services in the first six years of the 10-year contract -- $1,168,441,001.

Two years and hundreds of millions short

This is a stunning figure, insofar as it means that British Columbians already (in just six years) have paid all but $281.6 million of the $1.45 billion contracted back in 2003 with Accenture Business Services. At this rate, Accenture will have received the entire $1.45 billion in about two months from today; that is, some time in early August.

By then, the 10-year contract still will have about two-and-a-half years to run. To stay on budget -- that is, to ensure British Columbians realize the promised savings of $250 million -- Accenture will have to provide outsourced services over that period without compensation.

How likely is that?

http://www.thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/06/21/HydroContract/


Sorry Rielly for completly hijacking this thread..
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