Hey, Hosers, why is this such a secret, eh?

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Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 1, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
I mean, it holds a week's groceries, eh?



It looks better than a SmartCar to me, especially with that beer capacity, eh?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Apr 1, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
That is fantastic,i hope it goes.
khanom

Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Apr 1, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
No Noise


Edit:

Eh.
damo62

Social climber
Brisbane
Apr 1, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
27 mph?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 1, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
And remember, those 24-packs of beer? It's in Canada, eh, so they're metric cases.

I think the rule for converting to metric is "double it, and add thirty-two" so each of those cases holds (24 x 2) + 32 = 80 beers, eh. That car is bigger than it looks.

Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 1, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
ghost is correct: double it & add 32, eh
http://www.bobanddoug.com/sounds/gwn/mtrcbeer.wav

regarding the car, the Government of Oilberta (Canada too, eh) prevented the car from being sold in Canada, leading to:
In December 2009, the company made a further announcement confirming its new strategy and announcing that it will cease production of the ZENN LSV by April 30, 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZENN
John M

climber
Apr 1, 2013 - 09:22pm PT
Errr.. who buys these things? Where do you drive an auto that can only do 25 mph? They say you can change the chip and it will do 40, but then its illegal and still I don't know where you would drive it.

Plus did you see the rear tire lift on sharp cornering?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
^^^ That's why it needs Molson ballast.

And there's always this hybrid. No, really, it is! It has two electric
motors, in addition to the 750HP V12.
Credit: Reilly
John M

climber
Apr 1, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
Okay.. Now we are talking. zero to six pack in 3.5 seconds.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 2, 2013 - 12:35am PT
Problem with the electric car is, where do you get all the electrcity? Well here in bc we have quite a few dams and run of the river facilities which could be argued to produce green energy (if you ignore the ecological cost of disrupting nature to set them up in the first place)
In fact, pretty soon we won't have a major tributary that isn't being messed up by a run of the river project. Why do we do all this? So we can continue to sell electricity to industry and the states at a loss, while still producing enough power for demand in bc. So there is one source.

How do places without hydro do it? Well they have coal burning electric plants, and nuclear electric plants. Not exactly green options either.

Some wind power but it's pretty minimal really, you need the big huge turbines for much effect, plus these things seem to mess with people's health who live near them. The constant drone of the turbines and changes in air pressure the cause lack of sleep for neighbours of the small towers, much less the big guys.

Then we have solar which is awesome on buildings but not so great as huge arrays killing deserts.

So what happenes when we all switch to electric cars, we need more electricty. We already have way more demand than supply on that front.

We need to find alternate clean sources, like infrared energy

Solar's had a pretty rough time breaking the ~40% efficiency level over the years, but Idaho National Laboratory researchers have apparently developed a nano-antenna array capable of collecting power not from photonic energy as is done today, but from infrared energy that could be harvested in any weather (or even at night). The cell production process is even supposed to be ridiculously cheap compared to making standard silicon photovoltaic cells, but, as always, there's a rub. The grid collects its oscillating IR energy at ten thousand billion times per second, which is proving to be a challenge to the nerds behind the tech, who are working on a way to convert that to the 50-60Hz power that the world uses. So yeah, it might be a few more years before this one pans out (if it does pan out).

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/02/infrared-solar-panels-even-work-at-night-but-cant-output-energ/
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Apr 2, 2013 - 04:09am PT
How about we just stop consuming so damned much!


Stupid Americans.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 2, 2013 - 05:01am PT
Don't forget the donuts hose head....
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:09am PT
There are no perfect solutions unfortunately Mike. In-fact there are no good solutions. I do think switching to electric is the most sustainable and that to do so nuclear is the best current solution. Population and economic growth are in the driver seat for now. It's a ride with the accelerator floored and no brakes so far.
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Apr 2, 2013 - 07:37am PT
If we figured out how to transmit electricity without much lose, we could have nuclear and solar plants in remote locations.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 2, 2013 - 08:16am PT
Infrared is the future. It works 24/7 (at night, cloudy doesn't matter) and can be collected off any surface using the new sticker cell technology!!

Ubiquitous Energy, a new startup company, is currently developing a transparent stick-on solar cell for use with theiPad and other tablets. The stick-on solar cell will be able to keep the iPad powered throughout the day. The company states that its technology will revolutionize the use of mobile devices, making them nearly independent from wall-charging.


http://www.ethicalmarkets.com/2013/03/04/cleantech-news-from-cleantechnica-transparent-solar-cell-sticker-covers-being-developed-for-ipad/

Who wants to bet if this technology weren't free to the end user it wouldn't be done allready...
I bet your military is already using it for field applications!
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 2, 2013 - 08:44am PT
Mike: Green energy is energy that does not produce green house gas, dams are 100% green energy. There is some local environmental disruption, but that pales in comparison to the global disruption caused by burning non-renewables.

Yes new energy projects cost waaaaay more than what our heritage assets, big dams, provide us because we paid for those along time ago.

Wouldnt you want to export green energy to all these places that use coal and oil for fuel? In the long run it will be considerably better than letting them to pollute the atmosphere. RoR or big dams, small spread out hydro projects or concentrated high impact dams...Site C

Germany has a huge solar contribution to their grid and they are at the same latitude as us.

The only reason BC is looking at a future deficit in terms of power supply and demand is because of the 3-5 LNG plants both the current and incoming governments want to install.

If you think wind power does anything to the local air pressure and health then I guess you also believe smart meters cause cancer.

Randisi has it right, we need to conserve waaaay more, the fact that we have some of the cheapest power in the world is not helping. I asked all of my friends if they knew what the meaning of tier 1 and tier 2 power usage on their hydro bills were and no one knew...not cool
throwpie

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 2, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
And then there's the White Zombie....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RESC54vHr40
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 2, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
How do places without hydro do it? Well they have coal burning electric plants, and nuclear electric plants. Not exactly green options either.

I am very skeptical of the range claim of 40 miles with a 72 volt system. Probably have the real life range of half of that. Lithium batteries would be a huge improvement if they ever get the technology dialed in. Needs a good battery management system. Lead acid batteries can be charged all at once with one charger.

Most electric vehicles are driven during the day and charged at night. Power plants basically idle at night due to low demand. Switching over to electric vehicles levels demand and increases overall efficiency of power plants. We could charge millions of electric vehicles without building any new power plants. Electric cars are way more efficient than internal combustion, especially for stop and go city driving. Sure, people in rural areas could probably not use this type of vehicle. People in urban areas could easily drive an electric car and keep a gas car for longer trips.

I drive my GEM 150 miles a month, really saving on wear and tear on my regular car, short trips are hell on gas powered cars.

Power plants are going away from coal to natural gas, cleaner and cheap as hell now. I drive 4 to 8 miles a day. Sure it only goes 25 mph, but it gets me 3 miles about one minute slower than my car. I go all week without driving the regular car sometimes. I have a grid tied solar system on my house so I am driving for free. The car has almost no maintenance, check the water in the batteries once a month. It remains to be seen how long the batteries will last. Six Trojan batteries are about one thousand dollars. I hope to get 5000+ miles out of them.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 08:08am PT
Mikey, here's some aerodynamics 101. 20' beyond the ends of the wind turbine's
blades there will be zero disturbance of the air whatsoever. Now, 'downwind'
of the blades there will be considerable turbulence but the air pressure
will be exactly the same. All you gotta remember is:

"Nature abhors a vacuum."
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 08:39am PT
LONDON, ONT. - They live in the shadow of wind farms, and their stories of turbine-induced illness have been brushed aside by the wind industry, Ontario regulators and the province's Liberal government.

But now, researchers have published the first ever peer-reviewed study linking wind turbines and ill health -- giving opponents of wind turbines their heaviest arsenal in a fight that could shape the landscape of rural Ontario and perhaps political fortunes in the next election.

"I view it as a huge step forward. It definitely gives credibility to our case," said Esther Wrightman, who's led a crusade against 70 wind turbines west of Strathroy.

The study, published in the periodical Noise and Health, found that a random sample of residents living within 1.4 km of wind turbines in two Maine communities suffered more from impaired mental health and sleep deprivation than those who lived at least 3.3 km away.

That was their finding, even though most of the closer residents had welcomed the turbines because they came with a financial benefit.

The epidemiologist who created the study is a Guelph, Ont., resident who worked eight years for Health Canada.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/02/new-study-links-wind-turbines-to-ill-health

Also check out;

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episode/wind-rush.html

Hoser- do you really want the ecology of every major tributairy in British Columbia disrupted??
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 08:53am PT
Mike, I will look at that later, thanks. I am a huge noise pollution
nut. Just this morning I was bitching to myself about the phukking low-flying
helocopters. If I ever go postal it may well be against them. But I assure
you that living 100' from a very large turbine there can not possibly be any
air pressure difference other than turbulence. Noise aside I would not want
to be too close, say less than 300', from a large turbine (250KW) because I
am not convinced there are not effects due to the induction of such high power
lines. An old college friend grew up working the farmlands around Ellensburg,
WA. He was a god-fearing down-to-earth engineer devoid of any vices, other
than climbing. He averred that after a day of mowing hay beneath the big
power lines going from the Columbia R dams to Seattle that he would have a
serious headache. And he never got headaches otherwise.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Apr 3, 2013 - 08:58am PT
And remember, those 24-packs of beer? It's in Canada, eh, so they're metric cases.

And prohibitively expensive. Can that little rig even move under that kind of weight? How many OZ can it hold?
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 11:08am PT
Hoser- do you really want the ecology of every major tributairy in British Columbia disrupted??

Are you referring to the 9000+ hectare Site C dam or RoR projects that are built on non fish bearing streams and no reservoirs.

Or are you with John Beck who wants to frack , build numerous pipelines to tidewater, then somehow power the plants so that they can turn the gas into liquid.

The whole reason BC is going to see higher electricity prices is because of the new LNG plants that are going in.

Wind and RoR seem like the best way forward.

Power plants basically idle at night due to low demand

What kind of power plants? Coal plants never shut down, day or night.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
Are you referring to the 9000+ hectare Site C dam or RoR projects that are built on non fish bearing streams and no reservoirs.

Bing bing. Non fish bearing my ass. You think the ashlu is non fish bearing! The whole reason we are going to pay more is bc hydro is obligated to pay these guys triple the price of the legacy projects for the first 5 years and then after that, they get to choose who they sell it to and at what price they sell it! We are giving away our most precious resource, water for nothing!!!

These are not the massive dam and reservoir projects of BC's "heritage" systems such as the G.M. Shrum generating station where the Peace River now begins, capable of pumping out more than 2700 MW at full throttle - by itself a quarter of BC's capacity. But what these new projects don't have in size, they make up in sheer numbers. They are making it up in intrusions into hundreds of undeveloped areas with roads, dams, pipelines, temporary construc­tion camps, and a permanent spiderwork of transmission lines. They are making it up in dozens of issues affecting communities and local governments. And they are more than making it up in creation of phenomenal wealth that will transfer from the pockets of British Co­lumbia's electricity users and run straight into the hands of company shareholders.


Nowhere have local aspirations and corporate pre­sumption collided in such acrimony as they have with Led­cor and its Ashlu Creek Green Power Project. The Ashlu joins the Squamish River about 35 km north of Squamish. It is immensely popular with whitewater kayakers, backroad adventurers, off-road hikers and cross-country skiers, not to mention people who live in the area who simply value it as it is - a non-industrialized wild stream. There also re­mains a concern about the area's importance and vulner­ability as grizzly habitat.

Responding to these values, the SLRD denied a rezon­ing application by Ledcor for the Ashlu project in Janu­ary 2005. The application was resubmitted by Ledcor in December. The board decided to defer a decision pending completion of a regional energy/IPP strategy facilitated by the provincial government.

After that, the axe fell. More correctly, the provincial government brought the axe down on the SLRD and on all local governments in BC, removing their ability to control energy projects by zoning on Crown land within their ju­risdiction.

http://www.watershedsentinel.ca/content/run-river-hydroelectric-projects-bc-create-new-gold-rush

VICTORIA — BC Hydro is on track to lose more than $1 billion over the next four years by paying private companies to generate electricity the province doesn’t need, New Democratic Party energy critic John Horgan said Monday.

“BC Hydro’s fiscal situation is dire,” Horgan told reporters, offering his assessment of numbers released by the Crown corporation last week, which projected an energy surplus for the next 10 years. For the coming year, Horgan pointed out, the surplus will be so large it could power 472,000 homes.

The Sun reported last year that British Columbians paid $676 million for IPP power in the year ending March 31, 2012 — more than twice the price of imported electricity at that time.

http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=7917408

It's a setup with the liberals and accenture a us based electric company which owns 25% of bc hydro designed to bankrupt bc hydro so the private sector can take over and the liberals can say "it went bankrupt! We tried to keep it public!" Bullsh!t!!!!!
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
The whole reason we are going to pay more is bc hydro is obligated to pay these guys triple the price of the legacy projects for the first 5 years and then after that, they get to choose who they sell it to and at what price they sell it! We are giving away our most precious resource, water for nothing!!!

you cannot absolutely cannot compare energy prices from dams built 4 decades ago to new energy services we need now. Further more there is no other customer IPP's can sell to besides BC Hydro

You can quote Horgan if you like, but keep in mind that he is going hard very hard to build new LNG pipelines to Kitimat and is going hard to build many many new mines in NE bc...so he has his reasons to not like IPP

He is your new energy minister by the way, whether you vote for his party or not

IF we dont need the power why are we still looking at site C...

Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 3, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
Power plants basically idle at night due to low demand
Baloney.
BC sells hydro power to Alberta during the day & buys it back at night.
Sell high, buy low.
They can do this because dam hydro can be turned on & off easily.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
We buy Altas coal power at night because its too expensive for them to shut it down, we have been a net importer of power for over a decade now
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
A movie made by a local kayaker who was shocked when he found out what they were doing to the Ashlu.


Full Version here
http://www.downstreammedia.net/TheRangeLife/Video/49megawattsweb.mov

Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 02:49pm PT
So he would rather flood 9000 + hectares of land in the NE?

Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse. Do you really want to continue to buy coal power from Alta?

Wouldnt you rather pay more for green power? Do you buy the cheapest meat and fruit around or do you go organic.

No matter what there will always be a foot print, but we can decide how big that is.

So, NDP will build LNG lines to Kitimat.

THey are now in the process of changing the LNG lines that go east to carry tar sand oil...what happens when they decide to do that here.

Careful for what you wish for, RoR may be a pretty good deal in comparison
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 02:54pm PT
Since you posted 20 mins later obviously you didn't watch the full video. Killing every stream in this province is not acceptable. Period. No other government in the world would even think of this option. I'm not advocating the other ones. Just saying that selling our water for 5 to 10k a pop is just stupid.

If we didn't sell power, we would be sufficient. Raping our rivers is not the solution.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
With only 35 million of y'all in the third largest country on earth blessed
with bountiful everything I don't get why y'all aren't all driving Lambos
and pimping big time.
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 3, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
I watched it before mike, unfortunately the new LNG mines require us to find more power.

personally I would rather spread out the demands on our environment by utilizing RoR, wind and solar.

I dont think the LNG path or the major devastation caused by Site C is a good alternative. But with either governments, libs or the NDP we really dont have much choice.

Libs want to cap the carbon tax, for the next 5 years.. that effectively wipes out any new innovation and the NDP what to frack.

So you will get your RoR to stop but in lieu you will get pipelines... at some point RoR and LNG were your choices but since the public poo pooed RoR we get pipelines and fracking...hardly a better alternative and very very far from being green.

Thats why I say, be careful what you stand in the way of...the alternativs may be worse, and in this case I believe they are
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 3, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
With only 35 million of y'all in the third largest country on earth blessed
with bountiful everything I don't get why y'all aren't all driving Lambos
and pimping big time.
Cause our governments give away our resources in back room deals.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 3, 2013 - 04:55pm PT

It's not a fair game when somebody won't play by the rules
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 3, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Hoser,

What gives you faith that the Site C Dam and the various pipeline proposals are an alternate choice ?

What is stopping Site C, etc. from being pursued as a complement to current exploitation ?



Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ding ding ding!!! Jim wins! Everyone's getting screwed!!! That's how they roll!!! That's Reilly's answer too!!

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Apr 3, 2013 - 09:08pm PT
Coal plants never shut down, day or night.

True, large power plants can not be shut down because it takes many hours to bring them back online. That does not mean that they are being used efficiently. They have to keep them running but producing very little power (basically idling). Peaker plants are smaller plants designed to supplement the large power plants during times of high demand, they can be fired up very quickly. The state has a TOU (Time of Use) plan to offer incentives to use power at night at a lower rate. This is a good way to get people to charge electric vehiles between 10 pm and 5 am.

The charts below show the available power and the actual demand for power through the day. You can see the variation in demand. The renewable chart shows renewable resources, solar delivers when it is needed most, wind peaks at night and drops off during the day.

Credit: Jon Beck

Credit: Jon Beck
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 3, 2013 - 09:18pm PT
Credit: mouse from merced
Credit: mouse from merced
You need a beer run, eh? But exactly where, please. We're on a budget.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 3, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Shhhhh....

It's not true. It's an "Export A-pril Fool" joke...

You just gotta have hoses, not electric cords, eh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bliyct4_6o

A different kind of poverty...

Where's my gasoline gone?

The many-colored beast has et it all up.

BC rocks
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
At least it was actually called the 'Canuck'. Nyuk, nyuk...
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 3, 2013 - 10:24pm PT
Electric Cars are the happy - happy bromide, flung at the face of skepticism.

Mike is correct in asking about where the juice comes from and how it offers salvation from pain...

Personally, I was fed fish (salmon) in a simpler time. It took no intelligence to understand that fish protein was GOOD and that recent food realities as explained, were suspect...

What transportation, commerce and the all important delivery to market suggests, is that some one's gonna lose...

Burp, if you can feel happy about it all !

Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 3, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
Not to mention all the unfortunate amounts of mercury in them these days!! :(
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 11:55am PT
Hoser,

What gives you faith that the Site C Dam and the various pipeline proposals are an alternate choice ?

What is stopping Site C, etc. from being pursued as a complement to current exploitation ?

Site C will be stopped by first nations

NDP have already said they will not go ahead with Site C, main reason being lack of local skilled workers.

However they have not proposed how they will deliver enough power to the new 3-5 LNG plants

Not sure what you mean by alternate choices?

Enbridge and Kinder Morgan are dead, Horgan has said this and this is NDP's platform. However they will continue to allow environmental reviews to go ahead as good faith.

NDP want to build pipelines to Kitimat of LNG, Christy recently changed the Clean energy act to allow LNG exports to be declared clean.

Personally, I would rather see RoR than pipelines, site C and fracking. Not to mention LNG is not green and contributes GHG. Furthermore access to cheap carbon based fuels will prolong, possibly detrimentally, our path to 100% green renewable energy.

The price of power must be increased to represent the true cost it has on our environment, our heritage assets have been great but at the same time have given us a false idea of what power actually costs.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
Do you work for accenture or something??
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 01:47pm PT
Nope, I dont even know who that is. But I do care about the environment and conservation
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 4, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
"Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse."
- Hoser

This is the context for what I meant by alternate choices.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
I already posted that they own 25% of bchydro. Do you actually read anything anyone else says??

Ruining every decent sized river in bc is good for our environment? You drink water too don't you?

Fracking is horrible also. None of these are solutions. The solution to our power needs is stop selling it for less than we are buying it for!! They only need more power so the can continue selling it!!
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 03:46pm PT
"Folks really need to be careful on what they stand in the way of, because the alternatives may be much worse."
 Hoser

Right, yes I believe folks who stand in the way of new green energy plans may find that alternatives such as Site C and Fracking to be much worse.

I read what you say Mike but it just sounds like you read the Province or something.

Can you show me where it says we only own 75% of our public utility ?

http://www.em.gov.bc.ca/EPD/PowerDev/Utilities/Pages/default.aspx

They only need more power so the can continue selling it!!

Unfortunately your statements are misinformed, your call to power 5 year contracts, that IPP's can choose who they sell electricity too, that BC isnt a net importer of power for the last decade, that we have anywhere near the amount of electricity needed for new industry, mining, fracking what have you.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
Ok. So after reading this report;

http://web.uvic.ca/~kooten/documents/BCgeneratingSystem.pdf

I understand that my argument is flawed.

The Long Term Acquisition Plan (BC Hydro 2008a) was filed prior to the government’s announcement to reduce the availability of the Burrard thermal gas plant, and so the forgoing figures include the capacity of that generating plant. The total capacity associated with thermal and market purchases was 950 MW, of which Burrard plant capacity accounts for 900 MW – intended market purchases are quite small. Interestingly, the System Capacity Supply includes 656 MW of Electricity Purchase Agreements, excluding the Alcan LTEPA. However, “as of April 1, 2010, BC Hydro has 63 Electricity Purchase Agreements (EPAs) with IPPs whose projects are currently delivering power to BC Hydro. These projects represent 10,343 GWh of annual supply and 2,629 MW of capacity” (BC Hydro 2010a, p.1). Removing Alcan’s capacity from BC Hydro’s list of EPAs reduces total available IPP capacity to 1,733 MW, a figure substantially greater than the 656 MW enumerated in the System Capacity Supply table (BC Hydro 2008a, Table 6‐14)

According to this, the total power generation attributed to ipp's is still pretty minimal which in my opinion does not justify the disruption of the ecosystems of our rivers. Instead we would be much better off to purchase more of our power from Alberta at night when they are under capacity.

As to my point about accenture;

On April 1, 2003, a number of back-office functions, representing approximately 1500 employees, became the responsibility of BC Hydro's joint venture partner, Accenture Business Services of British Columbia. These functions include Business Support Services, Customer Services, Human Resource Services, Building and Office Services, Payroll and Accounts Payable Services, Financial Systems Services and Purchasing Services.



http://www.bchydro.com/toolbar/about/who_we_are/history.html
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Accenture's BC Hydro Contract Way over Budget

Still, some numbers have been made public. A news release issued by BC Hydro on Feb 28, 2003, described it as "a ten year, $1.45 billion agreement designed to save BC Hydro customers $250 million and expand Accenture's ability to offer ... services to utilities across North America."

Upon closer examination, it is evident that the $1.45 billion BC Hydro contracted to pay Accenture was in real (that is, inflation-adjusted) dollars.

To determine how much Accenture -- actually, its subsidiary, Accenture Business Services (ABS), which was set up to handle the contract -- has been paid by BC Hydro (and affiliates) over the last six fiscal years, let us consult the Crown corporation's annual Financial Information Act filings. (BC Hydro's most-recent FIA filing is for fiscal 2008/09. The 2009/10 document, for the fiscal year that ended this past March 31, should be published later this summer.)

Between 2003/04 and 2008/09, BC Hydro directly paid ABS more than $1.09 billion. Over the same period, two Hydro subsidiaries, Powerex and BCH Services Asset Corp, were dinged for a further $6.4 million and $11.3 million respectively.

On top of that, BC Transmission Corporation (spun-out of Hydro in 2003, and soon to be re-integrated back into its former parent) paid ABS another $57.4 million.

The grand total paid by BC Hydro to Accenture Business Services in the first six years of the 10-year contract -- $1,168,441,001.

Two years and hundreds of millions short

This is a stunning figure, insofar as it means that British Columbians already (in just six years) have paid all but $281.6 million of the $1.45 billion contracted back in 2003 with Accenture Business Services. At this rate, Accenture will have received the entire $1.45 billion in about two months from today; that is, some time in early August.

By then, the 10-year contract still will have about two-and-a-half years to run. To stay on budget -- that is, to ensure British Columbians realize the promised savings of $250 million -- Accenture will have to provide outsourced services over that period without compensation.

How likely is that?

http://www.thetyee.ca/Opinion/2010/06/21/HydroContract/


Sorry Rielly for completly hijacking this thread..
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
So we do buy coal energy from Alta at night, but why would you want to continue to buy coal energy, dont you think that dirty carbon based energy is much worse than RoR?

I just dont see how you can say no RoR but yes to coal burning, the dirtiest energy around

Just so you know this is NDP's plan as well, to increase the amount of coal energy we buy, however that goes against the clean energy act to be 93% green.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
Mikey me boyo, I wouldn't have expected otherwise. However, some Republican
friends in W Van, yes, those kind of Republicans, are gonna pay you a
visit if'n you don't learn to properly spell my name! How are your kneecaps?

Actually, yous guys are providing worthwhile content and in a fairly
commendable manner I might add.
Malemute

Ice climber
the ghost
Apr 4, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
So we do buy coal energy from Alta at night, but why would you want to continue to buy coal energy, dont you think that dirty carbon based energy is much worse than RoR?
Do the math.
AB needs X KW at peak demand.
BC needs Y KW at peak demand.
If BC can contribute energy to AB during the day, then AB can build smaller coal plants.
But BC only has so much water in the reservoirs, so they buy excess AB power at night.
If the AB coal plants could shut down at night, then this trading would not matter.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 4, 2013 - 06:55pm PT
Ya, Ab is still gonna run the plants so the net result is more co2 if we don't buy from them. Ror isn't green. Ruining ecosystems isn't green. That's like saying the hydrogen busses we have in whistler are green when the hydrogen is a) produced with coal fired power and b) shipped all the way from quebec.

It's more environmentally sensitive to use resources we currently have then mess up a bunch of rivers which don't end up netting much power anyways!!


Is this green?



Taku River Tlingit First Nation

How about this?

Credit intrawebz
Credit intrawebz

There are currently 79 of these projects under construction in this province. Most are in previously pristine valleys. You prefer this to burning some coal?


Sorry Reilly! Please don't mess up my knees, they're just starting to work again!

Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 4, 2013 - 08:12pm PT
Ya, Ab is still gonna run the plants so the net result is more co2 if we don't buy from them

I dont understand?

I guess you have to make a choice between burning carbon based fuels that will ultimately kill all the rivers or, make a very small foot print in select areas to provide green energy that will help provide much needed time to transition to a more sustainable energy source. Would you like me to post some pictures of coal or tar sand mining?

How about climate change pictures from burning coal, how about the recent report out of China where coal burning is killing people and the environment...

Mike, its our generation that needs to make some tough choices and we need to do it now, staying with the status quo is not an option. Educate yourself, why are we going to LNG, the worst thing in the world would be for us or the Chinese or anyone to gain any more access to cheap carbon based fuel.

There is only one reason why we have not transitioned to other more sustainable fuels, because people dont want to pay more.

Would you be willing to pay more for sustainable energy?


http://globalnews.ca/video/435254/does-b-c-have-enough-power-to-fuel-the-future

What she means about NDP wanting a moratorium is that the NDP think there is a de-facto moratorium because they dont know how to provide the power to more than one or two LNG plants.

What Horgan means about the GHG emissions is that depending on what type of power they choose it could put us over our limits as laid out in the clean energy act. For instance if the LNG plants power themselves by burning LNG. But considering they just changed the definition of clean energy for exports they may change its meaning here as well.

These are the alternatives when politicians are faced with public outcry about small scale 100% green energy projects that cost more.




Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 5, 2013 - 08:32pm PT
Stir it up, I say...

There is no small footprint when the shoe takes many indelible steps into a river or it's tributary creeks. The logical allegory there is like using Roundup or other brands of 2,4D to just clean up the weeds as an esthetic solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

The reality of run of river projects is that the original legislative measure was for energy production to promote and convenience development of placer mining claims.

There was never any intent to achieve best practices as it concerns less troubling energy developments branded "green", or as pursued these days as "greenish", sort of...

Run of the River hydro electric projects were developmental, legal loopholes discovered in the Mining Act and exploited by Gordon Campbell's cronies as something it was not intended for but quite lucrative just the same.

If anyone should feel that a possible NDP government winning the next election is going to bring idealistic happiness, don't hold your breath. That's because turning blue in the face isn't equivalent to turning green.









TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 5, 2013 - 08:40pm PT
The study, published in the periodical Noise and Health, found that a random sample of residents living within 1.4 km of wind turbines in two Maine communities suffered more from impaired mental health and sleep deprivation than those who lived at least 3.3 km away.


Duh!

Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out that a constant

"Whoop Whoop, Whoop "

24/7 might drive one a little batty?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
As an addendum,

Hoser, stop professing a lack of understanding to what others point out.

If you want an argument about something you hold dear, you must basically understand what your opponent presents and then shred it.

Don't be coy.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
Big Mike....What did you call Riley to get him so Reilled up? RJ
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Exactly rj
Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:09pm PT
JB, I have yet to hear an argument, just misinformed musings.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Apr 6, 2013 - 11:08am PT
Here's a real solution to our transport needs..

Hoser

climber
vancouver
Apr 8, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Oh yes the fabeled perpetual motion machine...free energy...just violate the first and second law of thermodynamics...

How about nuclear, maybe we should change the rules here in BC to allow nuclear

These guys have a proposal for 4 small plants in NW Alta...no green house gas emitted if you dont take into account the mining portion

http://www.brucepower.com/



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