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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
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heaven has an awesome band now....oh nevermind.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Sean Penn must be distraught
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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I for one am disappointed. I'm sure there was corruption but one of the last great socialist leaders who actually helped the lower class. Now back to your regular program of countries where politics is designed to make the top 10 percent richer. Carry on.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Ron, you forgot that his greatest legacy is he destroyed the infrastructure
physically and politically. The Venezuelan oil industry is in a shambles,
as is most of the rest of the country. With the deteriorating oil industry
and all the guvmint 'workers', read Hugo's party flacks, his poor people
will soon start to see the disappearance of Hugo's largesse.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Interesting character;
From Wikipedia
"Hugo Chávez defined his political position as Bolivarianism, an ideology he developed from that of Simón Bolívar (1783–1830) and others. Bolívar was a 19th-century general who led the fight against the imperialist Spanish authorities and who is widely revered across Latin America today. Along with Bolívar, the other two primary influences upon Bolivarianism are Simón Rodríguez (1769–1854), a philosopher who was Bolívar's tutor and mentor, and Ezequiel Zamora, (1817–1860), the Venezuelan Federalist general.[229] Political analyst Gregory Wilpert, in his study of Chávez's politics, noted that "The key ingredients for Chávez's revolutionary Bolivarianism can be summarized as: an emphasis on the importance of education, the creation of civilian-military unity, Latin American integration, social justice, and national sovereignty. In many ways this is not a particularly different set of principles and ideas to those of any other Enlightenment or national liberation thinker."[230]
Although he was a leftist ever since his days at the military academy, after becoming president Chávez's political position progressed further left, rejecting democratic leftist ideologies like social democracy or the Third Way and instead embracing socialism. He propagated what he called "socialism for the 21st century", but according to Gregory Wilpert, "Chávez has not clearly defined twenty-first century socialism, other than to say that it is about establishing liberty, equality, social justice, and solidarity. He has also indicated that it is distinctly different from state socialism", as implemented by the governments of the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China.[231] As a part of his socialist ideas, he emphasised the role of so-called "participatory democracy", which he claimed increased democratic participation, and was implemented through the foundation of the Venezuelan Communal Councils and Bolivarian Circles which he cited as examples of grassroots and participatory democracy.[232]
Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice and a tyranny of the richest against the poorest. Rousseau said, 'Between the powerful and the weak all freedom is oppressed. Only the rule of law sets you free.' That's why the only way to save the world is through socialism, a democratic socialism... [Democracy is not just turning up to vote every five or four years], it's much more than that, it's a way of life, it's giving power to the people... it is not the government of the rich over the people, which is what's happening in almost all the so-called democratic Western capitalist countries.
Hugo Chávez, June 2010[134]
Chávez was well acquainted with the various traditions of Latin American socialism, espoused by such figures as Colombian politician Jorge Eliécer Gaitán,[233] former Chilean president Salvador Allende,[233] former Peruvian president Juan Velasco Alvarado,[25] former Panamanian president Omar Torrijos[29] and the Cuban revolutionaries Che Guevara and Fidel Castro.[233] Other indirect influences on Chávez's political philosophy are the writings of American linguist Noam Chomsky[234] and the Gospel teachings of Jesus Christ.[235][236]
Chávez's connection to Marxism was a complex one. In May 1996, he gave an interview with Agustín Blanco Muńoz in which he remarked that "I am not a Marxist, but I am not anti-Marxist. I am not communist, but I am not anti-communist."[237] He was, however, well versed in many Marxist texts, having read the works of many Marxist theoreticians, and often publicly quoted them. Various international Marxists supported his government, believing it to be a sign of proletariat revolution as predicted in Marxist theory.[238] In 2010, Hugo Chávez proclaimed support for the ideas of Marxist Leon Trotsky, saying "When I called him (former Minister of Labour, José Ramón Rivero)" Chávez explained, "he said to me: 'president I want to tell you something before someone else tells you ... I am a Trotskyist', and I said, 'well, what is the problem? I am also a Trotskyist! I follow Trotsky's line, that of permanent revolution," and then cited Marx and Lenin.[239][240]"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system
Yeah, all those poor Germans, Swiss, Swedes, and other oppressed people
living in capitalist societies. Oh, almost forgot the pitiful Canadians.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Reilly, you were quoting the wiki writer, not Chavez.
Or so it seems to me.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Anyone want to admit to being Oogo's love child?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Brandon, right you are and you would also be right if you indulged in a large
dose of salt when you read such unabashedly polemical tracts as that in Wiki.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I thought Wikipedia was right all the time.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Yeah, all those poor Germans, Swiss, Swedes, and other oppressed people living in capitalist societies.
Reilly, those are all social democracies.
In any case we must all hate Chavez, he did not kiss Wall Street's ass, he must be evil.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
In a lucid moment Ron found that he was shouting with the others and kicking his heel violently against the rung of his chair. The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic...
The Hate rose to its climax. The voice of Chavez had become an actual sheep's bleat, and for an instant the face changed into that of a sheep. Then the sheep-face melted into the figure of a mojado soldier who seemed to be advancing, huge and terrible, his sub-machine gun roaring, and seeming to spring out of the surface of the screen. But in the same moment, drawing a deep sigh of relief from everybody, the hostile figure melted into the face of George W. Bush...
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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osama butt-waden didnt kiss wallstreets ass either.. Guess he was a HE-row tu?
Why do you have to put words in my mouth? Don't we have enough things to debate about without coming up with phony differences?
BTW, who took out Bin-Laden?
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
 G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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From my understanding the indigenous peoples of venezuela were getting screwed before Chavez; no access to health care and no access to education.
That all changed after he was ELECTED I believe he finanaced it by nationalizing the oil. The poor people voted him in and he helped them. He took the power away from the rich by using the vote. personally he seemed like an big mouth as#@&%e but I love how he helped the poor and turned Venezuela into a democracy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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You guys don't get it. Yes, they are marginally better off now but that is
all going to vanish now that he has destroyed the economic base. His
successor will not be able to maintain the largesse and they will be worse
off than before unless the new guy allows the middle class to create
real jobs and entice foreign investment back in. That is highly unlikely.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Here is an excerpt from HINDU TODAY
"Mr. Chávez started by nationalising the biggest domestic oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), and negotiating vastly improved terms with the foreign oil companies which had been making colossal sums out of the world’s greatest known hydrocarbon reserves while paying a pittance in royalties. Mr. Chávez put the revenues to good use, raising social spending by over 60 per cent to $772 billion in a decade and reducing extreme poverty from 40 per cent to 7.3, in addition to expanding healthcare services; furthermore, one in three Venezuelans now gets free education up to and including university level. As for the rest of the region, soon after assuming office, Mr. Chávez accepted the services of Cuban doctors in exchange for oil supplies to a country victimised by U.S. sanctions for over 40 years. Other countries too benefited from his acts of solidarity.
Chávismo, as this approach came to be called, infuriated the United States, which had long dominated Latin America through brutal dictatorships and oligarchical democracies. Washington all but publicly welcomed the 2002 coup against President Chávez and spent the better part of the decade which followed seeking to undermine his government in one way or the other."
Maybe this assessment is too positive, hard to say, but I give the guy credit for getting more of the oil revenue put back into the Country. I would guess that those 40% in extreme poverty reduced to 7% are the ones mourning him
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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There's a lot to this. He did a lot of good for a lot of people, failed at some other things, and seems to have left a mess. Stay tuned!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. ~ Socrates
Who's a loser? None of you, I just think its a great quote and I'm going to save it for a real argument someday. Man, Chavez is so much larger than life, one of the greatest world leaders in my lifetime anyway. I remember years ago, when he visited Iran he spent half his time with the Mayor of Tehran, it seemed a little weird and I didn't understand it at the time. The mayor was Mahoud Ahmadinejad, who is now the President. Another tremendous leader and hugely popular, like Chavez was in Vz.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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good riddance1
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