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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 5, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
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yup he finally bit the big one!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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hey my lame OT post was first@!!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
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what a guy
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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it stands for rot in poop
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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ok maybe there is room for 2 dead dictator post
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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I don't want good info. I want autopsies. They're better than info.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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One of the greatest world leaders, and certainly the best President Venezuela ever had.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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please elaborate....
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I was going to live in caracas back when Carlos Andres Perez was president. So first, you have to know who he is. He was the President before Chavez, and explains so much of Chavez' appeal. He was totally unconcerned with the populace and smuggled billions out of the country into his personal bank accounts. Is this what you want me to write about?
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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yes please.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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So Hugo smuggled billions out to give to Fidel. Not much difference as far
as Venezolanos are concerned.
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dogtown
Trad climber
Cheyenne, Wyoming and Marshall Islands atoll.
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Castro out lasts another one. I guess Sean Penn will have to find a new vacation spot.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Reilly you think Chavez was unpopular in Venezuela?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Well, Don, as with most demagogues he certainly knew which side of the bread
to butter. But if you didn't get any of the butter then maybe you didn't
think so fondly of him? I know my friend won't miss him. A lot of people
like his bitch in Argentina too. They're gonna like her as they all swirl
down the drain.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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I went to install one-way mirrors and his house and he came to the door wearing a dress.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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RIP....rest in peace, now what exactly does that mean?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Or...rust in place.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 07:28pm PT
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as an ambassador, rodman is a good basketball player
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Gene
climber
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DaBrim done him in.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
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seconded.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
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Ron, which video are you referring to?
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
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I'll check it out.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 08:02pm PT
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thanks!!!
yeah what a moron
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OR
Trad climber
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One of the greatest world leaders, and certainly the best President Venezuela ever had.
HAHAHAHAHhahahahahHAHAHAHAHAHahhaahhahaahaaa
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Don't think that there were hanging chads in the 2012 Venezuelan election. It is a democracy, the people spoke.
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fosburg
climber
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I always kind of liked him for his tell-it-like-it-is style. Once I met a Venezuelan tourist on the lift at Park City who claimed to know him and assured me he'd convey to him my regards. Definitely tough being the leader of an oil-rich nation in the 21st century!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Whose swirling down the drain? The Argentinians? Latin America's on the rise, gringos.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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So Hugo smuggled billions out to give to Fidel. Not much difference as far
as Venezolanos are concerned.
Not to mention about 2 billion he lined his own pockets with.
Marxist thief = good?
Rich guy who earned it = bad?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Don Paul, are you totally unaware of the dire situation in Argentina? Over
25% inflation, Cristina is plundering the national bank to pay her debts,
her most steadfast union supporters are now turning against her because her
state companies won't give them raises that even come close to the cost of
living increases. The country is a pariah in the world economically. They
pound on the agricultural sector with onerous taxes as it is the only viable
sector of the economy. Shall I go on?
And I suppose you think Brasil is better? Well, how could it be worse. The
bloom is totally off their nice run of the last decade. Zero growth, increasing
inflation, zero international investment, extremely onerous employment laws,
rampant corruption throughout the so-called Party of the People. And, of
course, the 800 pound gorilla in the country is the horribly bloated and
expensive federal sector of lifers only putting in their time until they
can retire at 45. Yeah, like that's gonna work. Dilma is afraid
of antagonizing her base so she is doing nothing substantive to address
any of these issues. While I do have admiration for her I'm afraid she has
become a bit of a puppet.
ps
I give Argentina 18 months, if they're lucky, before total collapse again,
as is their sad habit. I don't know where you get your news but it clearly
isn't Reuters, the NY Times, the LA Times, or The Economist.
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OR
Trad climber
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Don Paul is drinking the Cool aid
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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OR . . . time to work on your Spanish!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
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who's the dude in the middle with the nehru collar?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Is it better to burn out? Or rust?
Now on to that worm Interview !
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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The translator
...por supuesto..
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Hasta la vista mofo.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2013 - 11:05pm PT
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heaven has an awesome band now....oh nevermind.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Sean Penn must be distraught
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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I for one am disappointed. I'm sure there was corruption but one of the last great socialist leaders who actually helped the lower class. Now back to your regular program of countries where politics is designed to make the top 10 percent richer. Carry on.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Ron, you forgot that his greatest legacy is he destroyed the infrastructure
physically and politically. The Venezuelan oil industry is in a shambles,
as is most of the rest of the country. With the deteriorating oil industry
and all the guvmint 'workers', read Hugo's party flacks, his poor people
will soon start to see the disappearance of Hugo's largesse.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Interesting character;
From Wikipedia
"Hugo Chávez defined his political position as Bolivarianism, an ideology he developed from that of Simón Bolívar (1783–1830) and others. Bolívar was a 19th-century general who led the fight against the imperialist Spanish authorities and who is widely revered across Latin America today. Along with Bolívar, the other two primary influences upon Bolivarianism are Simón Rodríguez (1769–1854), a philosopher who was Bolívar's tutor and mentor, and Ezequiel Zamora, (1817–1860), the Venezuelan Federalist general.[229] Political analyst Gregory Wilpert, in his study of Chávez's politics, noted that "The key ingredients for Chávez's revolutionary Bolivarianism can be summarized as: an emphasis on the importance of education, the creation of civilian-military unity, Latin American integration, social justice, and national sovereignty. In many ways this is not a particularly different set of principles and ideas to those of any other Enlightenment or national liberation thinker."[230]
Although he was a leftist ever since his days at the military academy, after becoming president Chávez's political position progressed further left, rejecting democratic leftist ideologies like social democracy or the Third Way and instead embracing socialism. He propagated what he called "socialism for the 21st century", but according to Gregory Wilpert, "Chávez has not clearly defined twenty-first century socialism, other than to say that it is about establishing liberty, equality, social justice, and solidarity. He has also indicated that it is distinctly different from state socialism", as implemented by the governments of the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China.[231] As a part of his socialist ideas, he emphasised the role of so-called "participatory democracy", which he claimed increased democratic participation, and was implemented through the foundation of the Venezuelan Communal Councils and Bolivarian Circles which he cited as examples of grassroots and participatory democracy.[232]
Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system. Capitalism is the realm of injustice and a tyranny of the richest against the poorest. Rousseau said, 'Between the powerful and the weak all freedom is oppressed. Only the rule of law sets you free.' That's why the only way to save the world is through socialism, a democratic socialism... [Democracy is not just turning up to vote every five or four years], it's much more than that, it's a way of life, it's giving power to the people... it is not the government of the rich over the people, which is what's happening in almost all the so-called democratic Western capitalist countries.
Hugo Chávez, June 2010[134]
Chávez was well acquainted with the various traditions of Latin American socialism, espoused by such figures as Colombian politician Jorge Eliécer Gaitán,[233] former Chilean president Salvador Allende,[233] former Peruvian president Juan Velasco Alvarado,[25] former Panamanian president Omar Torrijos[29] and the Cuban revolutionaries Che Guevara and Fidel Castro.[233] Other indirect influences on Chávez's political philosophy are the writings of American linguist Noam Chomsky[234] and the Gospel teachings of Jesus Christ.[235][236]
Chávez's connection to Marxism was a complex one. In May 1996, he gave an interview with Agustín Blanco Muńoz in which he remarked that "I am not a Marxist, but I am not anti-Marxist. I am not communist, but I am not anti-communist."[237] He was, however, well versed in many Marxist texts, having read the works of many Marxist theoreticians, and often publicly quoted them. Various international Marxists supported his government, believing it to be a sign of proletariat revolution as predicted in Marxist theory.[238] In 2010, Hugo Chávez proclaimed support for the ideas of Marxist Leon Trotsky, saying "When I called him (former Minister of Labour, José Ramón Rivero)" Chávez explained, "he said to me: 'president I want to tell you something before someone else tells you ... I am a Trotskyist', and I said, 'well, what is the problem? I am also a Trotskyist! I follow Trotsky's line, that of permanent revolution," and then cited Marx and Lenin.[239][240]"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Democracy is impossible in a capitalist system
Yeah, all those poor Germans, Swiss, Swedes, and other oppressed people
living in capitalist societies. Oh, almost forgot the pitiful Canadians.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Reilly, you were quoting the wiki writer, not Chavez.
Or so it seems to me.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Anyone want to admit to being Oogo's love child?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Brandon, right you are and you would also be right if you indulged in a large
dose of salt when you read such unabashedly polemical tracts as that in Wiki.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I thought Wikipedia was right all the time.
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Yeah, all those poor Germans, Swiss, Swedes, and other oppressed people living in capitalist societies.
Reilly, those are all social democracies.
In any case we must all hate Chavez, he did not kiss Wall Street's ass, he must be evil.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
In a lucid moment Ron found that he was shouting with the others and kicking his heel violently against the rung of his chair. The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but, on the contrary, that it was impossible to avoid joining in. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge-hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic...
The Hate rose to its climax. The voice of Chavez had become an actual sheep's bleat, and for an instant the face changed into that of a sheep. Then the sheep-face melted into the figure of a mojado soldier who seemed to be advancing, huge and terrible, his sub-machine gun roaring, and seeming to spring out of the surface of the screen. But in the same moment, drawing a deep sigh of relief from everybody, the hostile figure melted into the face of George W. Bush...
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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osama butt-waden didnt kiss wallstreets ass either.. Guess he was a HE-row tu?
Why do you have to put words in my mouth? Don't we have enough things to debate about without coming up with phony differences?
BTW, who took out Bin-Laden?
"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
 G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
G.W. Bush, responding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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From my understanding the indigenous peoples of venezuela were getting screwed before Chavez; no access to health care and no access to education.
That all changed after he was ELECTED I believe he finanaced it by nationalizing the oil. The poor people voted him in and he helped them. He took the power away from the rich by using the vote. personally he seemed like an big mouth as#@&%e but I love how he helped the poor and turned Venezuela into a democracy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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You guys don't get it. Yes, they are marginally better off now but that is
all going to vanish now that he has destroyed the economic base. His
successor will not be able to maintain the largesse and they will be worse
off than before unless the new guy allows the middle class to create
real jobs and entice foreign investment back in. That is highly unlikely.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Here is an excerpt from HINDU TODAY
"Mr. Chávez started by nationalising the biggest domestic oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), and negotiating vastly improved terms with the foreign oil companies which had been making colossal sums out of the world’s greatest known hydrocarbon reserves while paying a pittance in royalties. Mr. Chávez put the revenues to good use, raising social spending by over 60 per cent to $772 billion in a decade and reducing extreme poverty from 40 per cent to 7.3, in addition to expanding healthcare services; furthermore, one in three Venezuelans now gets free education up to and including university level. As for the rest of the region, soon after assuming office, Mr. Chávez accepted the services of Cuban doctors in exchange for oil supplies to a country victimised by U.S. sanctions for over 40 years. Other countries too benefited from his acts of solidarity.
Chávismo, as this approach came to be called, infuriated the United States, which had long dominated Latin America through brutal dictatorships and oligarchical democracies. Washington all but publicly welcomed the 2002 coup against President Chávez and spent the better part of the decade which followed seeking to undermine his government in one way or the other."
Maybe this assessment is too positive, hard to say, but I give the guy credit for getting more of the oil revenue put back into the Country. I would guess that those 40% in extreme poverty reduced to 7% are the ones mourning him
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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There's a lot to this. He did a lot of good for a lot of people, failed at some other things, and seems to have left a mess. Stay tuned!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. ~ Socrates
Who's a loser? None of you, I just think its a great quote and I'm going to save it for a real argument someday. Man, Chavez is so much larger than life, one of the greatest world leaders in my lifetime anyway. I remember years ago, when he visited Iran he spent half his time with the Mayor of Tehran, it seemed a little weird and I didn't understand it at the time. The mayor was Mahoud Ahmadinejad, who is now the President. Another tremendous leader and hugely popular, like Chavez was in Vz.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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good riddance1
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Maybe i'm missing something but i always liked Hugo...When he shipped heating oil to America's poor senior citizens and Enron and duke energy were cornniss holing the rest of america with fake br0wn outs , it made me wonder who's side Bush and corporate america was on...? And doesn't Norway re-invest its' oil wealth back into its' economy...? God Damn socialist Norwegians...
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
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This post needs a little Robert Goulet
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Hugo Chavez, dead.
I'm wondering how I can even comment on his life.
In my "past life" being just a normal, happy American person (5 years ago) hearing and believing the media I'd be able to say specifically how wrong/right he was. How he negatively impacted our country etc.
Today, after 5 years of "life thought" I would say this.
*How do I know Who Hugo Chavez was? I never met him, talked to him, didn't know his dreams (good or bad) for his country.
*How did he get elected? Were the past politico's so bad he filled a gap?
*How did our country interact with him and how did his relationships with other countries and ours play out?
So many questions. Can we pass a judgement on his life? Yo, if he beat his wife or hurt his kids....yeah.
But politics are so screwed/skewed and interpreted to us by others .....is it possible to know what went down, is going down when he was in charge? Can we judge him on what we've heard from our media even tho we never saw or experienced what went down?
Think I'll reserve my judgement and pray the best for the future of their country and ours. lynnie
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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he was BUDDIES with nearly every dictator that is aligned against you, me, you mothers/fathers/kids/cousins/aunts-uncles and grandparents.
You just described the last 10 American presidents. Well, except for Carter. That's why we turned on him.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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+1
Lynnie!
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Most of the hate comes from the fact that he told the US to get f*#ked. We do the same to plenty of others in the world. The guy did some good in that country. Look at what went on there before he got in control and you would have to admit that there was some improvement.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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LA Times:
But Chavez's social largesse was fueled by Venezuela's rising oil revenue over the last decade. Prices now have leveled off, crude production has stalled and Venezuela's debt is rising, including a $38.5-billion marker to the Chinese. Meanwhile, Venezuela's industrial and farm base — textiles, cattle, sugar and steel — continues to shrink, making the country ever more dependent on imports.
The collapse of domestic production is reflected in the increased reliance on crude sales. Puente said oil sales accounted for $96 of every $100 in Venezuelan exports last year, compared with about $80 before Chavez took office. Meanwhile Venezuela's imports last year totaled $59 billion, compared with a $10-billion to $12-billion average in the 1990s, Puente said.
To stanch the flow of imports, the government last month announced a 46.5% devaluation of the currency, the bolivar. That made imported goods more expensive. But the move will bite the poor hardest because they spend a greater part of their incomes on imported household goods. Also hurting the poor, analysts said, is inflation that could exceed 30% this year — one of the three highest rates in the world.
The scarcity of vital household food items is a volatile issue that could undercut Maduro's authority. A recent Central Bank study found that 1 in 5 basic supermarket items, including cooking oil, sugar and chicken, can now be considered "scarce." The poor suffer most as scarce items are often found on the black market at prices far above government-set limits.
"Despite having about the highest average oil price in history, the government faces huge challenges due to the mismanagement of the economy," said Francisco Monaldi, a visiting professor at Harvard University.
Mushrooming crime has made Venezuela one of the most violent nations on the planet. While Chavez, through the force of his charisma and common touch, overcame the issue to win reelection in October, Venezuelans may cut Maduro less slack. The homicide rate is now five times what it was in 1999. More police officers were killed in greater Caracas in 2011 than in the U.S. as a whole.
Like Chavez, Maduro is a fervent admirer of Cuban leaders Fidel and Raul Castro, and thus likely to continue Venezuela's economic support of the Communist regime, largesse that totals an estimated $6 billion annually and could try supporters' patience.
Hugo Chavez successor inherits goodwill, hard times
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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One thing the venezolanos don't need is a bunch of gingos who've never even been there telling them what to do.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I was an Ahmadinejad fan long before he was president. When Chavez visited him back then, I thought, who is this guy? The man is a total genius, hopefully someday I will get to go there and meet him. (Disclosure: I've done at least 50 shows on Iranian TV and am not at all neutral.)
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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My parting gift for Chavez and maybe for the Iran dude too. Have to say the SNL Ahmadinejad skit where he was gay was as funny as it gets.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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PURE GENIUS!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Update: this is the actual letter itself:
Chavez, 'martyr' of preserving human values: Ahmadinejad
TEHRAN, March 6 (MNA) – Iran’s President has issued a statement, and has sent condolences for the death of Hugo Chavez, Venezuelan President.
The text of the statement by President’s office is as follows:
In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
Inna lillah va Inna Ilayhi Rajeun(2: 156) (Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return)
Dear friend Mr. Nicolas Maduro,
The Honorable Vice-President of Venezuela,
The spirit of a great man of justice and freedom-seekers ascended to the heaven, and plunged the world into the griefVenezuela lost its bravest and courageous child, and the world lost a wise and revolutionary leader.
I express my condolences, in the extreme grief, the death of Hugo Chavez to Venezuelan government and people, and his bereaved family, and Your Excellency.
Hugo Chavez was a name known to all nations. His name is reminiscent of pure innocence, kindness, fortitude, and love for the people, to serve the people, especially the poor and the victims of colonialism and imperialism by arrogance powers.
He was deeply pious, committed to human and spiritual values and a helper of God’s messengers and global rule of justice and love by the leadership of Reformers.
Chavez stood against - with all his bravery- the excessive interests of the arrogance hegemony powers, and the broken propagandist, economic pressures, and even coup d’états; but yet his eminence was being so modest to find a time to put his gentle hands on a child’s head, and whispering the clear song of freedom and pride into their ears, to ignite the spirit of love for rest or his life.
Chavez was a symbol and heritage of all brave, warriors, and the revolutionaries in the glorious, but grief-stricken history of Latin America. He was the epitome of the spirit of magnanimity of people of this land, and all nations under suppression; he was a pioneer of anti-colonialism, justice-seeking, and friendship among the nations.
He was a spiritual ballast and support for all revolutionaries and freedom-seekers of the region and the world. Indeed, he was an evident epiphany of a passionate, idealistic, and lovable Venezuela, and Venezuela’s great nation, put him to the presidency with all their sage-like wisdom, helped him in against thick and thin, and he exploited all opportunities and power for serving his people, and heightening the name of his country and bringing freedom to other nations.
And ultimately, he gave his body and soul to this honor-bound path. He is indeed a martyr of the road to service to Venezuelan people, and preserving human and revolutionary values. Although, apparently, a lovely and kind friend left us, I am sure that his heavenly soul and his bright thoughts will rise every day in the higher horizons in the hearts of each and every Latin American and Venezuelan people more brighter than ever, and will lit the path to pride and esteem for all.
Chavez is alive, as long as justice, love and freedom are living. He is alive, as long as piety, brightness, and humanity are living. He is alive, as long as nations are alive and struggle for consolidating independence, justice and kindness. I have no doubt that he will come back, and along with Christ the Savior, the heir to all saintly and perfect men, and will bring peace, justice and perfection for all.
Once again, I express my condolences for this heavy loss, and entreat from God happiness, health, welfare, and pride for you and Venezuelan nation.
Your friend and brother Ahmadinejad,
President of the Islamic Republic of Iran
March 6 2013”
(the part about the Mahdi was not in his statement and seems to have been added by Radio Free Europe to make the story more interesting)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Thank you, Don, at least you have a sense of humour.
It would appear that Amaninadinnajacket does too.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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his acolytes are going to pickle him and put him on display.
We have decided to prepare the body of our 'Comandante President,' to embalm it so that it remains open for all time for the people. Just like Ho Chi Minh. Just like Lenin. Just like Mao Zedong,"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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As a deeply religious man, I condemn few to hell. It isn't my job, nor my judgement to make.
I won't do that to Chavez. I'll let God judge his heartless soul. It ain't my job.
He talked liked a man of the people, yet stole their countries wealth for his own needs. He was a liar. Much like another leader I know so well.
That's all I'll say. Words are meaningless without reciprocal action.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Ron, I disagree. To do that would be to condemn so many innocent Norks to death. It is their leader who needs to go. Much like Iran, and, hehe, Venezuela.
One down....
Let's try to protect the Iranian people, the starving Norks, and the poor Venezuelans (and Cubans), with peace through capitalism, or diplomacy.
Worked with Russia and China. Mostly...
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 7, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
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great Idea Ron. I would also love to see you stuff Chavez.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Blue,
Worked for Russia and China.
You're kidding right?
Russia is a major mess and China is Communist.
Compared to Iran, North Korea, and Cuba/Venezuela??
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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once upon a time, the gubbmint didnt think threats from al-kay-duh were worth action..
If I recall correctly, that was the neocon gubbmint of George W. Bush. Who ignored the warnings of the Clinton administration. They were too busy making up BS stories about the 'W's missing from the White House keyboards to be concerned with national security.
Here's another conservative stalwart, my congressman Dana Rohrabacher.
Can't these neocon idiots get anything right?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Gary, so why didn't Clinton kill him? He had the chance twice!
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Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
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Gary, so why didn't Clinton kill him? He had the chance twice!
You might ask the same question of your hero George W.
Fortunately, it's a moot point now.
Ooopsie!!!!!!!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 25, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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Don Paul, here's a rational appraisal of Hugo's 'legacy'. I know Mr Schiller
is only an emeritus professor of econ at a respected university but I hope
you can look beyond that to the facts.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Hugo Chavez's voodo economics
The late Venezuelan president's effort to stiff-arm a basic economic tenet has brought the economy to the brink of disaster.
By Brad Schiller
March 24, 2013
Two years before his death, Hugo Chavez tried to repeal the law of supply and demand, which says that free markets set the price: the higher the demand, the higher the price. Every producer who was willing to sell at that equilibrium price would be able to do so and every consumer willing and able to pay that price could acquire the product.
Chavez despised the law because he believed it robbed the poor and unjustly profited producers. In its place, he persuaded the Venezuelan legislature to enact the 2011 Law on Fair Costs and Prices, a price-setting mechanism to ensure greater social justice. A newly created National Superintendency of Fair Costs and Prices was empowered to establish fair prices at both the wholesale and retail levels. More than 500,000 price edicts have been issued. Companies that violate these price controls are subject to fines, seizures and expropriation.
In all cases, the prices set by the government have been below market — sometimes far below. This has caused production cutbacks, market shortages, massive government subsidies, runaway inflation and extraordinary government intervention. The most flagrant subsidy is for gasoline. Venezuelans pay only 4 to 6 cents per gallon for gasoline, the cheapest in the world. But it costs Petroleos de Venezuela, the government-owned oil company, close to $2 a gallon to extract, refine and distribute it. With domestic consumption now running about 600,000 barrels a day, the financial loss on subsidized oil is roughly $20 billion a year.
CARTOONS: The quotable Hugo Chavez
Worse yet, rising domestic consumption combined with declining domestic production has squeezed oil exports, depriving Venezuela of much-needed hard-currency income. When the government tried to raise gasoline prices years ago, riots erupted. Since then, the government's only lever for curbing gasoline consumption has been exhortation.
Because Venezuela is still one of the world's biggest oil producers, the artificially low price of gasoline hasn't caused any domestic shortages. That is not the case, however, with other consumer products. The wholesale price of coffee beans was fixed in 2003. As rising production costs eventually made coffee farming unprofitable, growers cut back on planting. Chavez responded by expropriating the largest Venezuelan coffee producer and taking a 50% stake in another. The government now controls nearly 80% of coffee production, with small farms supplying the rest.
Despite this intervention, Venezuela doesn't produce enough coffee to meet domestic demand. The nation has been transformed from a coffee exporter to a coffee importer. Last year the government had to import more than 80 million pounds of coffee (600,000 bags) to help bridge the gap between the quantity demanded and the quantity supplied. Even at that, consumers line up early at government-run stores when coffee deliveries are anticipated.
The same kind of acute shortage bedevils the corn flour market. Bread prices are set artificially low to ensure that everyone can afford it. So is the price of corn flour. When bakeries can get some corn flour, however, they want to use it to produce higher-priced products such as specialty breads, not low-priced shelf bread. Shortages of both corn flour and bread result. In the black market, corn flour prices have been 50% above government price ceilings. The government has responded by accusing flour distributors of hoarding and by seizing their inventories for distribution to the people.
Last year, Chavez extended the Law on Fair Costs and Prices to rental housing. Previous rent controls and limits on private investment had reduced the stock of rental housing by as much as 70% in only a few years. The acute shortage of rental housing led to skyrocketing rents in the black market and a lot of social unrest. Chavez decided that tougher rent control was needed. In November the government decreed that rents could not exceed a specified percentage of a property's market value. The property value, of course, would be determined by the government's Superintendency of Fair Costs and Prices. The housing shortage can only get worse.
In response to the growing housing shortage, the government decided to help increase the housing stock. It's goal is to build 3 million homes by 2019. But rent controls make new construction unprofitable and conventional financing unlikely. So the government recently enacted a mandatory loan program that fixes mortgage rates at very low levels: 4.33% for low-income borrowers and 10.66% for high-income borrowers. In an economy with inflation running at nearly 25% a year and rising, this is the epitome of free money. Naturally, no private bank would want to make such loans. But the new law requires banks to devote a significant portion of their loan portfolio to these mandatory mortgage loans.
Venezuela's attempt to repeal the law of supply and demand and replace it with pervasive price controls has been an economic disaster. The destruction of profit, investment and work incentives has stymied economic growth. The government and the economy have become increasingly dependent on a diminishing stream of oil revenue. Without that oil revenue, the Venezuelan economy would implode.
Chavez's death has sparked hope of an economic restructuring that would reduce government regulation and encourage private enterprise. But that will not happen any time soon. Chavez's handpicked successor, Nicolas Maduro, must win the hearts and trust of the people. As Chavez himself learned on several occasions, rescinding price controls and embracing "capitalistas" is not the way to accomplish that goal.
Brad Schiller is emeritus professor of economics, American University. Email: bschill@american.edu
Copyright © 2013, Los Angeles Times
Hugo Chavez's Voodoo Economics
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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Bump for Don Paul
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Mar 29, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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What's the bump for? Do you think I'm a socialist?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 29, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
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I just thought you might like to read an objective and balanced assessment of Chavismo.
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