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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
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But you have good teeth right?
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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This is what people keep voting for.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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yah me got good tooths.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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What's Flouride bud?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
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rockermike said No, I didn't read the paper, I read the article. everything else is frivolous detail.
You ever hear the phrase the devil is in the details? You seem like the type of person who thinks of themselves as a reasonable skeptic. If that's the case you could bolster your street cred tremendously by displaying some scientific literacy and taking the time to read and understand what was actually studied.
Here's a hint, most popular writing about science is about as accurate as Hollywood movies are when it comes to portraying rock climbing.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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what about our precious bodily fluids? have you thought about that Mandrake?
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skywalker
climber
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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Wuts an IQ?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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Hey Johnson...! The commies are the ones putting fluoride in your bong water...RJ
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:19am PT
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I respect people who truly think, and display it. Too many just regurgitate links that they don't even understand.
The thing that blows my mind the most is mercury amalgam filling arguments.
Mercury in high concentrations in your blood gets left in areas of your body that don't do you good.
And so the anti-amalgam tirades go on.
The truth is, the only other option are composite fillings or lithium disilicate replacements at 10x the cost. Using glue made of the same stuff as most composite resins.
The problem is, you can scientifically prove that the composites have much more harmful or damaging components in them by reading the ingredients.
You never hear a peep from conspiracy theorists about this.
The craziest thing, however, is that the people most worried about the conspiracy theories are the least likely to have great oral health. I would respect where they were coming from if they all took my free toothbrushes and used them.
But when they complain about the one of the two options for fixing the damage they have done to their mouths, I wonder why they don't complain about the one that, using the same 'science' they should consider the worse of the two options. Then I read their "internet research" (since when did the verb, to google, become a synonym for research?) I realize that they did no research themselves and wouldn't know enough to interpret research themselves anyway. So I can't blame them for not even knowing their options.
These people are usually more entertained by their conspiracy theories than their health. If they cared, they would get their decay disease under control in the first place.
But I guess because Fl is bad, they don't brush their teeth and they eat refined food, causing decay. And they blame it all on us, who are just cleaning up their mess.
Of the hundreds of anti-fluorodites/anti-amaglamites out there in the history of these items, not ONE has ever learned to research and produced an option for what they rant about. Not even a bad option. And I know a lot of guys who come up with new products on their own. They are easy to market and get out there (we see a lot of junky materials and products at trade shows/showing up as free samples) to dentists, and the good ones get picked up quickly and used widely. So if there was something good, it would be tested at Clinical Research in Provo, UT, and then everyone would be using it. Some examples: XTR Bond, blew up overnight. Astringadent blood stopper, tested and developed by a student at Loma Linda Univeristy with a scalpel and his forearm. Used in every office now.
So rockermike, if you are going to flippantly throw junk links like this out there, I'm going to be honest with everyone about the people I see daily who believe that junk, and how their dental choices compare to the general population, and where their dental choices take them. It blows my mind really, they think there is some conspiracy, when, in fact, they are just keeping drill/fill/bill dentists in business.
http://engineeringevil.com/2012/09/16/japanese-invention-could-end-tooth-decay/
Some people ask me if this invention scares me because you would think it would put dentists out of business. I wish it would work, really. Then I could concentrate on the fun aspects of dentistry, like ortho, etc. (stuff that would be around if decay wasn't) But the truth is, some conspiracy nut would make up a story about it and people would still continue to rot their teeth out.
They did it with toothpaste
They did it with fillings
The problem with this invention is that 85% of the fillings I do are on decay on the interproximal surfaces of teeth, where people should floss. How are you going to get a delicate sheet of stuff down between two teeth that are touching? You can hardly get floss through there. You would have to put a strip of sandpaper between each contact after sandblasting between the contact to open it up and clean off any pelicle so that this would adhere. Then you have damaged the enamel rods making the teeth much more likely to decay, negating any advantage this product may have had. Even if it did work as claimed, to reduce decay, it wouldn't work any better than brushing/flossing combined with drinking fluoridated water while your dental lamina was differentiating. Those things are already in use, and I still have work!
I'm just saying, these junky links lead to cheap ideas that really don't fool anyone with half a brain.
(kennyt - that photo shows an artist's rendition of heavy smoking/coffee staining, not fluorosis. The surface texture would be pitted and matte with striated layers, it would reflect the light from the flash accordingly - not with the glazed reflection you can see in his 9 and 10 or 2.1 and 2.2)
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:41am PT
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thanks for being the first one to prove my point buddy.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:00am PT
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If I, as a random internet individual did tell you what I found in the different areas that I have practiced dentistry and related it to just one factor, water fluoridation, how would that affect you who already knows all he wants to about the subject from internet searches? Yes, people who have lived all their lives in one area can be compared between areas and I do see how fluoride has affected them. Observing these changes is easy in jungle villages where people live and die in the same place. In north america, 20% of the population moves to a new water source each year, which changes the comparison. So you have to talk to your patients and see who grew up where to make the observation.
No, when you bring up myths and Godwin's law appears, there isn't much anyone who has experience in the subject can say to someone who doesn't. You have settled on the false tidbit that if Hitler did it, it must be bad. Which isn't an illogical argument, if the initial fact was in fact, true, and if he did it for more than just research, or if it was research, that it was proved to be true. Have you studied the research of Dr Josef Mengele? What were his conclusions on Fl use? Was he known for his good research? For the careful way he went about performing surgeries or studies? Did he every try to study logical things, or just do haphazard pointless studies? What about his motivation for what he did to twins? Just because this guy tried something at one point, does that mean that Hitler did it? Does that mean that it was a tried-and-true method to accomplish something? Or was he full of wacked-out ideas and pointless research? Was everything he tried ultimately proven effective? How about changing eye colour? Does that mean that changing eye colour is a hitler-sanctioned way to control the population?
Are we going to think about this past the classic one-liner you have thrown out there? Are you sure you really want to bring that one up?
Is it ok with you that I use LITHIUM disilicate crowns for everyone who doesn't want metal restorations in their mouth? The dentists who cater to conspiracy theorists incorrectly advertise those restorations as metal-free dentistry because that is what the conspiracy people label them as. You are telling me that the same people telling you that lithium in the water is ok, but it is a better choice than a PFM?
Prozac. PROZAC® (fluoxetine capsules, USP) is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor for oral administration. It is also marketed for the treatment of premenstrual dysphoric disorder (Sarafem®, fluoxetine hydrochloride). It has the empirical formula of C17H18F3NO•HCl. Its molecular weight is 345.79.
OK buddy, which part of that is the main ingredient? How is this hydrolized? Remember your biochemistry? What is the first cut between which carbon or hydrogen, which of our bodily enzymes does it, and what are the resulting halves or products of the reaction? You are trying to convince the world that fluoride is a big part of this. Is fluoride or fluorine created in this reaction? Is it a free ion? What is the state of Fl in drinking water? Do they match? Do you know what you are talking about, or are you regurgitating junky arguments that you were simple-minded enough to fall for?
If the facts of your arguments were true, the style of argument (hitler did it) would have more pull. But you have to start the argument with TRUTH and FACTS! If Hitler did indeed have a drug program which did indeed result in sterility, you would have a point. But Jews were still having kids when they left the camps, they were still escaping and fighting for life. I've heard the same arguements for MMR shots. The shots sole purpose is to sterilize the population. Well, it has been less effective than just giving everyone the mumps would have been. Lame argument.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:08am PT
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I'm not arguing one side or the other.
I want you to prove to people that you know what you are talking about and not just parroting disinformation.
Answer my organic chem question. It is very straightforward. If you believed what you said was true, it would be because you know how that chemical is metabolized or hydrolyzed or what those words meant.
Can you come up with any original content, or answer any questions, or just spew these lines that are a dime-a-dozen on the internet?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:12am PT
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I was just thinking this week about how the screw access in implant abutments would be the perfect spot to store micro chips! 2-3mm by 7mm space I usually fill with teflon tape before cementing the crown on. Now the next conspiracy theory will be preventing people from getting implants... oh crap, now I've done it!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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Fluoride- 0.28 mg/L
Iron bacteria- approx. 500 cfu/mL
Sulfate-reducing bacteria- 5000 cfu/mL
Metals in mg/L:
Aluminum- 2.28
Arsenic- <0.04
Barium- 0.053
Calcium- 45.0
Chromium- 0.012
Copper- <0.01
Iron- 4.34
Magnesium- 50.0
Manganese- 0.12
Molybdenum- <0.01
Nickel- <0.01
Zinc- 0.07
Cadmium- <0.05
Sodium- 52.0
Lead- 0.03
Selenium- <0.03
Well water results from a well I just drilled in the jungle on a tropical island. Far from any city, significant road, farming, pollution, runoff, or source of industrial pollution. In fact, the country has almost no industry whatsoever. Would you believe what was in the water? Can you tell me how much of this is in the water of those cities you are talking about? I don't live in any of them, but I could get them for you if you'd like. Which of these would you want to remove from your water? Have you ever tested your water? Would you be surprised to know that many cities who do not fluoridate their water have even more Fluoride in their water than this well?
In other words, do you have any original material that uses intelligence to bring to your argument, or just regurgitated one-liners?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:25am PT
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I agree - it should be a choice.
Batrock is spot on.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:32am PT
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Tooth
The dude doesn't want fluoride in his water.
If you want molten lava in your water or whatever turns you on then be our guest and put it in your glass of water and drink it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:39am PT
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Your mind is made up.
Facts will do that - as opposed to a steady diet of conspiracy theories which do accumulate in the logic centers of the brain severely impairing judgment.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:47am PT
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Werner,
He doesn't want it added to his water. He is bringing up bunk to convince me though, not to convince himself. I stated why I don't agree with bunk arguments.
I vote for freedom of choice and voting for what we want. I provide every option for my patients to make everyone comfortable and as healthy as possible with the choices that they make. I also provide education based on reality, experience, facts and science. If I sense that they frequent Alex Jones' website I certainly leave them to it (usually because they keep me so busy!).
But on a thread on a topic I'm going to ask questions about the logic and ideas put forth. It's not about what I want in my water. It is about the argument brought up, if it is weak and based on lies that he hasn't even thought through, it's low-hanging fruit...
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John M
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:50am PT
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Tooth.. I know this must frustrate you, trying to educate people on this subject, but NWO2 is batshit crazy. You can't fix crazy. He was banned as NWO.
Might I suggest that you just explain what you know and leave it at that. I have enjoyed reading what you post. Its informative.
...
And yes yes.. I know.. some folks here think I'm bat sh#t crazy. heh heh..
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 02:01am PT
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yeah, I was just testing the guy to see if he really had an original thought of his own or not.
If he did, and was ignorant, he would have gone off on LITHIUM disilicate restorations. But since there is no current conspiracy theory going on about that, he didn't regurgitate it.
If he was intelligent he would have told me that the lithium in it was not bio available and why.
But then he would have known why his other argument was bunk, so I know that he doesn't know anything about chemistry or biochemistry.
Which is how we know that he has skipped any real scientific education in life and spends a lot of time on websites run by people just as ignorant as he.
I argued this all the way through with him so I wouldn't be mistaken!
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