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| Messages 1 - 104 of total 104 in this topic |
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Rockermike: I may have ingested Fluoride in my water from time to time, but my IQ is still high enough to recognize the photograph you're using in your avatar pic. It's a shot I took of my buddy Lester a few years ago.
Funny thing though, it says "Credit: rockermike" below it.
You might want to do something about that.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I could never figure out why my municipality is so concerned with my teeth. Why not add vitamins to the water? I started thinking about this issue last year when I went on a haz mat spill at the water treatment plant in Sylmar. The spill was fluoride that was to be added to the water. Full haz mat suits were required and that got me thinking about what I have been drinking. Then two months ago I went on a call where a house was burglarized that was being fumigated with Sodium Fluoride. Again we had to suit up to prevent exposure.
My concern since these incidents is how do you dose the amount your taking in?
If it makes your teeth strong I am ok administering topically but what are the long term effects internally? What does it do to soft tissue?
I'm already just a dumb fireman, I can't afford to lose anymore IQ points.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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RockerM - did you read that paper? The one linked in your link.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
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sorry Ghost - I didn't really remember where I got that photo, and on my side I don't see any credit one way or another, unless I dig through three layers of screens. Never realized it claimed anything about the avatar photo. But I have always identified with Mt. Goats. ha --- anyway I fixed it.
No, I didn't read the paper, I read the article. everything else is frivolous detail. ha I take it you read the paper and come to different conclusions from the Huffington guy?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I've heard that exposure may prematurely age you, the eighteen yr old in the red hat was unavailable for comment;
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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RockerM - did you read that paper? The one linked in your link.
i think we all know that "no," is the correct answer to that question. he read that piece of crap article by joseph mercola and then went one up on mercola's carp.
mercola is a supplement salesman and an irresponsible hack.
we've known for awhile that we need more epidemiological work on flouride. but since flourise concentrations in water in most industrial countires averages less than 1ml/l, the authors of the literature review had to review studies from china, where concentrations can be much higher. they fund several studies in which poor areas in rural china, that have unusually high flouride levels in the water, also have lower than average iq scores among children. needless to say, that is not exactly the finding that mercola is spraying about.
anyone trying to get their science from the huffpo pretty much deserves what he gets.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
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Take your refutations to the editor. I'm just the messenger. lol
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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this is what I'm wondering about treating water in Haiti. We plan to use chlorine, but it is hazardous to handle in most forms. Should we try something else to kill the stuff in the water based on the fact that in concentrated doses it is too strong to handle?
Basically, if it is bad in extremely high concentrations, is it bad in every concentration? Alcohol? Has Harvard done a study on the effect of that and IQ at any given concentration?
Is it possible that something like Niacin is useful to our bodies at one concentration, but can become harmful when ingested at a high enough concentration?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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I think they put fluoride in to make teeth stronger, I don't think it has anything to do with purification. Here in Davis there is a ballot battle going on over their water system. Some want to mix river water into the current well supply - then purify with an ozone process. Don't know anything more then that about it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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No worries.
The moment just prior to the picture, when Lester literally dropped out of the sky from about 20 feet up, was something I'll never forget. Took more points off my IQ than any amount of Fluoride ever could. Ruined my underwear, too.
Happy to have you use it.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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They put fluoride in to turn enamel hydroxyapatite into fluorapatite. The second is wayyyy harder to cut through with acid. Thus, much less work for dentists.
There are so many new grads nowdays who need work since the old guys' retirements crashed in '08 and aren't retiring. So the trend of not fluoridating water is working out well for everyone.
Cheers!
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2013 - 10:20pm PT
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I'll take 5 IQ points for 5 cavities anytime. lol
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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If you can avoid 5 cavities at 1ppm but may loose 5 IQ points at 100ppm, would it be reasonable to say that the ED50/LD50 is quite safe?
The equivalent in alcohol is saying 3 drinks/hr gets you buzzed, 300 gives you brain damage, and to equate things further, 3000 would give you alcohol poisoning.
We know that it takes far fewer drinks to harm you than that, so the ED50/LD50 of alcohol is much, much, much less safe.
I'm trying to put it in perspective with something people are familiar with so they don't sound so comical when they talk about fluoride!
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I can choose to drink alcohol but am being forced to drink fluoridated water.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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I can choose to drink alcohol but am being forced to drink fluoridated water.
I agree. It should be a choice.
It is interesting to see that there was Fl naturally occurring in the well we just drilled in Haiti. Do you know how many areas in the US have natural FL in the well water that is above the 1ppm that is added to water (in the 60% of the US that does it?)?
The CDC says 4% of well water is above 1ppm. And 'virtually all' that they have tested has some concentration of Fl in it. I have never read a water test from a well that doesn't have some in it, Canada, US or Haiti.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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The article is full of lies. But since it is printed online, feel free to believe them!
nocuous industrial waste
In reality it happens to be an element on the periodic table and an element in earth's crust present in all water.
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OR
Trad climber
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mercola is a supplement salesman and an irresponsible hack.
Yes sir he is. Thanks for pointing that out.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sadly, I live in a community where we do not have fluoridated drinking water and they are keeping it closer to pure. Shouldn't my 91 year old mother be forced to drink it so that she can keep the false teeth she's had for 17 years in good condition? It's just too difficult to give kids the little tablets to chew in school, and it's just wrong to ask parents to have their kids teeth coated at the dentists. It's just wrong to even slightly inconvenience people or to ask them to take responsibility to do this themselves. We should make it mandatory for all, even people without teeth. It's for their own good, and they are too stupid to do it themselves. People don't know whats good for them or are too stupid, slothful and lazy to do it themselves so mamma and pappa big government should cram it down their throats.
Besides, for my community it's only going to cost 5 million dollars to set up the system and then yearly payments of a tad over a million to keep it going. We have not other use for that money.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Its far more important kids have white teeth instead of a high IQ, evidentally at least in the US. Its illegal to put on the water in much of the rest of the world.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Its far more important kids have white teeth instead of a high IQ, evidentally at least in the US. Its illegal to put on the water in much of the rest of the world.
It isn't a yes/no situation. It is a false assumption to say that you cannot have dental benefits without any other effects. Don't parrot what others say when it is illogical or weak unless you have claimed that you eat Fl by the box full and are trying to make a point!
Rilley, none is absorbed. I'll clarify my previous post for you. The Fl has a chemical reaction with your enamel creating a compound that is more resistant to acid erosion than regular enamel.
There are 2 ways to do this.
Ingest Fl in water or pills.
This creates the super enamel from the differentiating dental lamina.
Apply Fl topically. Fl varnish or Fl trays. Toothpaste. Drinking water.
This changes the enamel in a thin layer on your teeth.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Not sure about IQ but look at the studies of the communities that do not add fluoride tot he water. Tooth decay in the state of Hawaii is off the charts. It certainly works to prevent tooth decay, no doubt about it. That being said, what was I saying?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Studies? Just look at the DMFT ratios (go through dental charts) at offices in the areas you want to 'study'. Simple and quick - but you actually have to 'study', go count in charts vs. googling.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, I lived in west Texas towns as a kid where people had brown teeth from all the floride in the water (it does Not make your whiter). There were whole counties out there without a dentist. I myself am 68 years old and I've only ever had one cavity and that in a wisdom tooth which formed after we moved out of the area. Checkups included, I haven't spent more than $500 on my teeth in my whole life - all thanks to Mother Nature. My teeth are not as white as most peoples but not brown either.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Jan,
Fl helps the teeth at 1ppm. Starts to cause fluorosis at 4-10 ppm.
Fluorosis definition in real life results is this:
A progression that starts with
White mottling (spots, lines near the CEJ, etc)
Continues from white to brown, then dark brown when you ingest Fl in a concentration that is like having 30 beers a night. It would kill you if it were Tylenol, Alcohol or many other things people overdose on with only double or triple the regular dose.
Most people would use you as an example as to how fluoride works. It was obvious that there was Fl in the water you were drinking as your teeth were developing. You said so yourself, and the brown mottling would give it away anyway.
Your wisdom teeth develop later in your teens, so if I were to guess, I would say you moved away before you were 18 since it is the only one you got a cavity on? Possibly. The second most common reason is deep fissures on the occlusal surface coupled with lack of access.
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jstan
climber
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Going without fluorides gives you cavities right away. Using fluoride may allow you to be more intelligent, but way down the road. So if you are impatient by nature you go for the cavities.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Studly,
I'm a shill for reasonable, educated knowledge. What I find is a lot of people seemingly 'discovering' science in 2013 - usually from some loopy website. Should we tell them that it has been around since before they were goofing off in high school?
You need a base of science and understanding of how research works before you can evaluate arguments which can be 100% logical, but wrong because they are based on falsehoods. You will fall for it because they are teaching you the 'facts' and then building the argument on that. You don't know the facts in the first place, and you can't disagree with the logic, so you buy it, hook, line and sinker.
Like I have said before, this Fl issue is a first-world problem with uneducated people who learn 'science' from conspiracy nuts. This will only worsen until the education situation in the US quits declining.
My most profitable family has been the local natropath and his kids. I guess cavities are natural!
EDIT: case in point
9) No health agency in fluoridated countries is monitoring fluoride exposure or side effects.
This point is made why? If government agencies quit monitoring climbing would you cease to climb? If they quit monitoring your e-mails would you think e-mails were bad?
11) Benefit is topical not systemic.
False. But if you don't know the truth already, you would most likely fall for their logic.
15)
In addition, research has repeatedly found fluoridation to be ineffective at preventing the most serious oral health problem facing poor children, namely “baby bottle tooth decay,” otherwise known as early childhood caries
No reasonable person who understands 'baby bottle tooth decay' would expect it to be prevented. They keep their mouths shut when it comes to how much it has been improved, but instead make an apparent argument for the total elimination of the disease. Mothers are putting their babies to bed with bottles to suck on. Unless it has water in it, cavities will be a much more common result than not regardless of anything else you do to affect the situation.
Almost every point I have read so far is assuming that fluoridation is the only factor in decay disease and so should react as such.
**16) Tooth decay does not go up when fluoridation is stopped.
17) Tooth decay was coming down before fluoridation started.**
If you believed that, you will believe most of those points without even looking up the research to see what was really going on.
If you believe their point 11, you can believe point 16. You will see through it if you know the truth.
I like the argument about other countries not fluoridating their water.
They neglect to state that in many countries with poor public water systems, that they add Fl to salt in the country or some other method which have always decreased the DMFT rate.
But if you took their argument at face value, without any knowledge of your own, there is no logical reason not to believe it.
Should I keep going?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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You shouldn't have to keep going on, Tooth.
You are writing reasonable, scientific things, in opposition to "junk science"
the article in HP is unbelievable junk.
This is the reasoning: Something at very high dosages is toxic, so obviously, that same thing at low dosages must ALSO be toxic.
Example: dihydrogen monoxide is often added to municipal water. In high dosages, it causes more deaths than any other chemical. Should the lower dosages added to municipal water be eliminated? Should it be banned from being sold/supplied to the public?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The Harvard study is not a study on the fluoridation of water supplies in the US or anywhere else. And, as stated, Mercola is a crank and huckster who is way more dangerous than fluoride will ever be. He also preys on folks with low IQs so you'd think he'd be all for fluoride in industrial quantities if it were true that municipal levels were dangerous.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Example: dihydrogen monoxide is often added to municipal water. In high dosages, it causes more deaths than any other chemical. Should the lower dosages added to municipal water be eliminated? Should it be banned from being sold/supplied to the public? And if those conspiracy freaks ever found out that the military is stockpiling vast quantities of DHM...
TE
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Hey Tooth,
I am just going off what a very good friend of mine has told me or sent to me. She has been a practicing dentist in Hawaii for 25+years. When I had children of my own, I relied on the info she referred me to not the google stuff you are inaccurately assuming I am referencing.
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WBraun
climber
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so obviously, that same thing at low dosages must ALSO be toxic.
Accumulative becomes the point in low dosage.
Over a period of time.
Years of exposure will accumulate within your body along with all the other toxins modern industrialized societies expose themselves to over the years.
Accumulative is the key ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Do you like drinking tea? Been drinking it for years? If so, you've likely been exposing yourself to higher levels of flouride than you'd get from municipal water treatment. You should consider refocusing the action network on banning tea - incredibly bad stuff.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Accumulative becomes the point in low dosage.
Over a period of time.
Years of exposure will accumulate within your body along with all the other toxins modern industrialized societies expose themselves to over the years.
Accumulative is the key ......
Really? So you advocate that repetitive consumption of dihydrogen monoxide leads to the buildup of toxic levels?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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could always read the journal article...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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yer gonna die.
Quit trippin' on stupid stuff. Communists should be your real worries.
Carry on.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 07:54pm PT
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So it's not me it's the water. Really I'm not this dumb.
I should have listened to guyman --- drink beer, stay away from the water.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:38pm PT
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But you have good teeth right?
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:46pm PT
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This is what people keep voting for.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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yah me got good tooths.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 15, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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What's Flouride bud?
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
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rockermike said No, I didn't read the paper, I read the article. everything else is frivolous detail.
You ever hear the phrase the devil is in the details? You seem like the type of person who thinks of themselves as a reasonable skeptic. If that's the case you could bolster your street cred tremendously by displaying some scientific literacy and taking the time to read and understand what was actually studied.
Here's a hint, most popular writing about science is about as accurate as Hollywood movies are when it comes to portraying rock climbing.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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what about our precious bodily fluids? have you thought about that Mandrake?
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skywalker
climber
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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Wuts an IQ?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 15, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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Hey Johnson...! The commies are the ones putting fluoride in your bong water...RJ
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:19am PT
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I respect people who truly think, and display it. Too many just regurgitate links that they don't even understand.
The thing that blows my mind the most is mercury amalgam filling arguments.
Mercury in high concentrations in your blood gets left in areas of your body that don't do you good.
And so the anti-amalgam tirades go on.
The truth is, the only other option are composite fillings or lithium disilicate replacements at 10x the cost. Using glue made of the same stuff as most composite resins.
The problem is, you can scientifically prove that the composites have much more harmful or damaging components in them by reading the ingredients.
You never hear a peep from conspiracy theorists about this.
The craziest thing, however, is that the people most worried about the conspiracy theories are the least likely to have great oral health. I would respect where they were coming from if they all took my free toothbrushes and used them.
But when they complain about the one of the two options for fixing the damage they have done to their mouths, I wonder why they don't complain about the one that, using the same 'science' they should consider the worse of the two options. Then I read their "internet research" (since when did the verb, to google, become a synonym for research?) I realize that they did no research themselves and wouldn't know enough to interpret research themselves anyway. So I can't blame them for not even knowing their options.
These people are usually more entertained by their conspiracy theories than their health. If they cared, they would get their decay disease under control in the first place.
But I guess because Fl is bad, they don't brush their teeth and they eat refined food, causing decay. And they blame it all on us, who are just cleaning up their mess.
Of the hundreds of anti-fluorodites/anti-amaglamites out there in the history of these items, not ONE has ever learned to research and produced an option for what they rant about. Not even a bad option. And I know a lot of guys who come up with new products on their own. They are easy to market and get out there (we see a lot of junky materials and products at trade shows/showing up as free samples) to dentists, and the good ones get picked up quickly and used widely. So if there was something good, it would be tested at Clinical Research in Provo, UT, and then everyone would be using it. Some examples: XTR Bond, blew up overnight. Astringadent blood stopper, tested and developed by a student at Loma Linda Univeristy with a scalpel and his forearm. Used in every office now.
So rockermike, if you are going to flippantly throw junk links like this out there, I'm going to be honest with everyone about the people I see daily who believe that junk, and how their dental choices compare to the general population, and where their dental choices take them. It blows my mind really, they think there is some conspiracy, when, in fact, they are just keeping drill/fill/bill dentists in business.
http://engineeringevil.com/2012/09/16/japanese-invention-could-end-tooth-decay/
Some people ask me if this invention scares me because you would think it would put dentists out of business. I wish it would work, really. Then I could concentrate on the fun aspects of dentistry, like ortho, etc. (stuff that would be around if decay wasn't) But the truth is, some conspiracy nut would make up a story about it and people would still continue to rot their teeth out.
They did it with toothpaste
They did it with fillings
The problem with this invention is that 85% of the fillings I do are on decay on the interproximal surfaces of teeth, where people should floss. How are you going to get a delicate sheet of stuff down between two teeth that are touching? You can hardly get floss through there. You would have to put a strip of sandpaper between each contact after sandblasting between the contact to open it up and clean off any pelicle so that this would adhere. Then you have damaged the enamel rods making the teeth much more likely to decay, negating any advantage this product may have had. Even if it did work as claimed, to reduce decay, it wouldn't work any better than brushing/flossing combined with drinking fluoridated water while your dental lamina was differentiating. Those things are already in use, and I still have work!
I'm just saying, these junky links lead to cheap ideas that really don't fool anyone with half a brain.
(kennyt - that photo shows an artist's rendition of heavy smoking/coffee staining, not fluorosis. The surface texture would be pitted and matte with striated layers, it would reflect the light from the flash accordingly - not with the glazed reflection you can see in his 9 and 10 or 2.1 and 2.2)
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:41am PT
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thanks for being the first one to prove my point buddy.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:00am PT
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If I, as a random internet individual did tell you what I found in the different areas that I have practiced dentistry and related it to just one factor, water fluoridation, how would that affect you who already knows all he wants to about the subject from internet searches? Yes, people who have lived all their lives in one area can be compared between areas and I do see how fluoride has affected them. Observing these changes is easy in jungle villages where people live and die in the same place. In north america, 20% of the population moves to a new water source each year, which changes the comparison. So you have to talk to your patients and see who grew up where to make the observation.
No, when you bring up myths and Godwin's law appears, there isn't much anyone who has experience in the subject can say to someone who doesn't. You have settled on the false tidbit that if Hitler did it, it must be bad. Which isn't an illogical argument, if the initial fact was in fact, true, and if he did it for more than just research, or if it was research, that it was proved to be true. Have you studied the research of Dr Josef Mengele? What were his conclusions on Fl use? Was he known for his good research? For the careful way he went about performing surgeries or studies? Did he every try to study logical things, or just do haphazard pointless studies? What about his motivation for what he did to twins? Just because this guy tried something at one point, does that mean that Hitler did it? Does that mean that it was a tried-and-true method to accomplish something? Or was he full of wacked-out ideas and pointless research? Was everything he tried ultimately proven effective? How about changing eye colour? Does that mean that changing eye colour is a hitler-sanctioned way to control the population?
Are we going to think about this past the classic one-liner you have thrown out there? Are you sure you really want to bring that one up?
Is it ok with you that I use LITHIUM disilicate crowns for everyone who doesn't want metal restorations in their mouth? The dentists who cater to conspiracy theorists incorrectly advertise those restorations as metal-free dentistry because that is what the conspiracy people label them as. You are telling me that the same people telling you that lithium in the water is ok, but it is a better choice than a PFM?
Prozac. PROZAC® (fluoxetine capsules, USP) is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor for oral administration. It is also marketed for the treatment of premenstrual dysphoric disorder (Sarafem®, fluoxetine hydrochloride). It has the empirical formula of C17H18F3NO•HCl. Its molecular weight is 345.79.
OK buddy, which part of that is the main ingredient? How is this hydrolized? Remember your biochemistry? What is the first cut between which carbon or hydrogen, which of our bodily enzymes does it, and what are the resulting halves or products of the reaction? You are trying to convince the world that fluoride is a big part of this. Is fluoride or fluorine created in this reaction? Is it a free ion? What is the state of Fl in drinking water? Do they match? Do you know what you are talking about, or are you regurgitating junky arguments that you were simple-minded enough to fall for?
If the facts of your arguments were true, the style of argument (hitler did it) would have more pull. But you have to start the argument with TRUTH and FACTS! If Hitler did indeed have a drug program which did indeed result in sterility, you would have a point. But Jews were still having kids when they left the camps, they were still escaping and fighting for life. I've heard the same arguements for MMR shots. The shots sole purpose is to sterilize the population. Well, it has been less effective than just giving everyone the mumps would have been. Lame argument.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:08am PT
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I'm not arguing one side or the other.
I want you to prove to people that you know what you are talking about and not just parroting disinformation.
Answer my organic chem question. It is very straightforward. If you believed what you said was true, it would be because you know how that chemical is metabolized or hydrolyzed or what those words meant.
Can you come up with any original content, or answer any questions, or just spew these lines that are a dime-a-dozen on the internet?
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:12am PT
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I was just thinking this week about how the screw access in implant abutments would be the perfect spot to store micro chips! 2-3mm by 7mm space I usually fill with teflon tape before cementing the crown on. Now the next conspiracy theory will be preventing people from getting implants... oh crap, now I've done it!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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Fluoride- 0.28 mg/L
Iron bacteria- approx. 500 cfu/mL
Sulfate-reducing bacteria- 5000 cfu/mL
Metals in mg/L:
Aluminum- 2.28
Arsenic- <0.04
Barium- 0.053
Calcium- 45.0
Chromium- 0.012
Copper- <0.01
Iron- 4.34
Magnesium- 50.0
Manganese- 0.12
Molybdenum- <0.01
Nickel- <0.01
Zinc- 0.07
Cadmium- <0.05
Sodium- 52.0
Lead- 0.03
Selenium- <0.03
Well water results from a well I just drilled in the jungle on a tropical island. Far from any city, significant road, farming, pollution, runoff, or source of industrial pollution. In fact, the country has almost no industry whatsoever. Would you believe what was in the water? Can you tell me how much of this is in the water of those cities you are talking about? I don't live in any of them, but I could get them for you if you'd like. Which of these would you want to remove from your water? Have you ever tested your water? Would you be surprised to know that many cities who do not fluoridate their water have even more Fluoride in their water than this well?
In other words, do you have any original material that uses intelligence to bring to your argument, or just regurgitated one-liners?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:25am PT
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I agree - it should be a choice.
Batrock is spot on.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:32am PT
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Tooth
The dude doesn't want fluoride in his water.
If you want molten lava in your water or whatever turns you on then be our guest and put it in your glass of water and drink it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:39am PT
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Your mind is made up.
Facts will do that - as opposed to a steady diet of conspiracy theories which do accumulate in the logic centers of the brain severely impairing judgment.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:47am PT
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Werner,
He doesn't want it added to his water. He is bringing up bunk to convince me though, not to convince himself. I stated why I don't agree with bunk arguments.
I vote for freedom of choice and voting for what we want. I provide every option for my patients to make everyone comfortable and as healthy as possible with the choices that they make. I also provide education based on reality, experience, facts and science. If I sense that they frequent Alex Jones' website I certainly leave them to it (usually because they keep me so busy!).
But on a thread on a topic I'm going to ask questions about the logic and ideas put forth. It's not about what I want in my water. It is about the argument brought up, if it is weak and based on lies that he hasn't even thought through, it's low-hanging fruit...
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John M
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:50am PT
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Tooth.. I know this must frustrate you, trying to educate people on this subject, but NWO2 is batshit crazy. You can't fix crazy. He was banned as NWO.
Might I suggest that you just explain what you know and leave it at that. I have enjoyed reading what you post. Its informative.
...
And yes yes.. I know.. some folks here think I'm bat sh#t crazy. heh heh..
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 02:01am PT
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yeah, I was just testing the guy to see if he really had an original thought of his own or not.
If he did, and was ignorant, he would have gone off on LITHIUM disilicate restorations. But since there is no current conspiracy theory going on about that, he didn't regurgitate it.
If he was intelligent he would have told me that the lithium in it was not bio available and why.
But then he would have known why his other argument was bunk, so I know that he doesn't know anything about chemistry or biochemistry.
Which is how we know that he has skipped any real scientific education in life and spends a lot of time on websites run by people just as ignorant as he.
I argued this all the way through with him so I wouldn't be mistaken!
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gonzo chemist
climber
Fort Collins, CO
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Feb 16, 2013 - 11:34am PT
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NWO2,
The issue is NOT about questioning government or the media. In fact, its important to question those.
The issue is arguing with solid, reproducible science. Small amounts of fluoride in drinking water produces a harder, more acid-resistant tooth enamel. Its a fact.
Does it damage the brain and make people dumber? I don't know...I'll have to read that paper when I get a chance--as well as look up any of the references.
Goin' climbing....peace...
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 11:35am PT
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Question 'them' all you want.
I do.
But more importantly I also look for educated answers. I don't settle for mindless conspiracy drivel that is wrong. Who cares if the government OR if Alex Jones says it.
Wrong is wrong.
Not thinking for yourself will lead you to blindly follow one or the other and end up wrong. Both of those paths show that you aren't thinking for yourself if you can't answer one educated question but just repeat tired arguments that aren't even your own.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
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It's a bonafide known fact that everything modern science has done to fix one thing they've in that that process broken something else.
This bullsh!t crap you guys are spewing that your so called science is going to make the world better in the end result has been pure illusion.
The whole world is worst off today than in the past and getting worst.
Because of the bottom line ....
Your whole modern science is only based on trying to fix the cage and you've completely neglected the bird.
You're complete whole modern science thinks the there's only the cage ......
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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You are making the wrong assumption that the same administration that does the killing is the same people that decide on other things like municipal water supplies.
Also making the wrong assumption that every decision has a uniform outcome and a uniform motivation. Making sweeping, all-inclusive arguements is dangerous because it leaves you open to being proven wrong with each and every exception to the rule. It leads to the logical conclusion that every person in every branch of government, all the way down to SAR employees has drunk the kook-aid and is in on the conspiracy.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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Whats your point?
That I ignore most all your foolish posts since you're never even in the ball park.
At least Tooth is IN the ball park.
You're on some island of your own that you make up in your head all the time when you have no idea what's really going on ......
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:21pm PT
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It is true that for any action there is an equal/opposite reaction. So treating any ill in society will have more than one outcome/consequence.
That includes both adding and subtracting things from society.
So the whole exercise boils down to reality. Where are we currently, what is the rate of disease and what will the overall health effect be? In an ideal world, people would eat only food that they grew themselves with no chemicals.
They don't.
So eating supplements for some is better than not.
But blindly ignoring the fact that most people in the US do not grow their own food or even have the opportunity to when you are deciding what is ideal means that you will be making decisions for people that will have a harmful net effect.
This is why I'm for education, educated answers, not banging your head against the wall (repeating bunk questions) and freedom of choice.
Nothing today is as good as when Werner was a child, but banning cars and only allowing horse and buggies means that you haven't really recognized where society is and that this wouldn't be much of an effective solution. Once you do that, you can help educate and make positive change. Sweeping legislation isn't going to solve this problem.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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I grow most of my own food myself. Can hundreds of jars of free fruit each summer. Freeze 20 cubic feet of vegetables and berries and nuts I picked myself. Very rarely eat out, and when I do it is to local restaurants who only use local foods. We have on overabundance of cheese, wine, orchards, etc. here. Haven't eaten at a fast food chain since I was in the US.
But yeah, you seem to have a good grasp of the points others are trying to make!
You seem to thrive on putting questions out there without answers. So here's one, but I'll add some explaination.
How many people have died from Fl in any shape or form? From fluoride in water or toothpaste?
How many have died from dental decay?
In the past 4 years I have known of 3 patients who died (2 were men in their 20's) from an abscess caused by dental decay.
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John M
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Yes, anyone who questions government or mainstream media is "bat sh#t crazy".
So too are war vets, people who home school their children, non-vaccine takers, Christians, gun owners, and a few others I may have missed. Oh! Republicans, Constitutionalists, and Libertarians as well.
OH! And anyone not in agreement with the Supertopian Communist Party.
I say, round them all up and stick them in FEMA reeducation camps.
LOL.... man are you batshit crazy. Bat sh#t crazy isn't someone who questions. Batshit crazy is someone who jumps to extremes when all evidence says otherwise. Batshit crazy automatically says its zebras when they hear hoofs in America. You sir are batshit crazy.
Me
Gun owner
Sort of Christian ( Believe in God, Believe Jesus was the Christ )
About half my family is home schooled. I fully support it. I just recognize its not for everyone.
2 of my closest friends are Veterans. Most of my family are veterans. I don't hate any of them.
I don't like much of what is happening with GMO. But I also understand that there is a difference between adding or changing genes and cultivating to promote certain genes.
You sir like to jump to conclusions without supporting evidence. You have no ability to discern what is reasonable or what is credible evidence..
Why?
Because you are batshit crazy..
...
And yes.. I understand the difference between clinically crazy and batshit crazy. Batshit crazy is a human who is able to function in the world but has no real ability to discern truth and thus follows or believes every piece of bullshit that comes down the pike.
Here is a piece of advice. If you are in America and you hear hoofs. Its probably not zebras.
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John M
climber
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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Too funny.. there you go again. Jumping to a conclusion that is unsupported.
Take care dude. I don't hate you or myself. I just realize there is no communicating with you as you have a failure to comprehend. I don't know why that is, I just know that it is. ( maybe its because you ingested too much fluoride )
what you wrote on another thread..
You. Just. Don't. Get. It.
Too funny.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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Do all of you live on city water?
Not an option here, all this discussion makes me glad that I have my own well.
Yes, I test my water. Yes, I filter my water. No, I don't have any concern about all the stuff you suburban and urban types are talking about.
Just thought I'd offer up an alternative. Live outside of town.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 16, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
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After looking at that photo I'm gonna go dump some fluoride in my well!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Feb 16, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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I have a well. Basically off the grid.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 16, 2013 - 03:13pm PT
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In grammar school we used to just rinse with fluoride in class.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Feb 16, 2013 - 03:15pm PT
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My Grandfather made it to 102. The last 70 years of his life he drank L.A. tap water. Before that Mojave well water. He had dam_ near all his own teeth when he died.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:01pm PT
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The U.S. government has been killing millions of innocent people all over the globe. Do you really think they care about your teeth?
This is a good question. does anyone have an answer?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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No fluoride in City of Olympia municipal water. "It's the water."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
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Well, a full set of teeth at least makes you look smart.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 23, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
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tooth, I appreciate your efforts to interact on a rational/scientific plane when other folks in the conversation are unable or choose not to do that.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 23, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
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^Don't use it in your enemas, it blow your mind right out yur ass.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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St00pid modern Americans love to poison themselves and simultaneously claim they are advancing ......
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Sep 23, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
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NWO, the guy you trust and link to, David Icke says we are governed by shape shifting reptiles.
See how that trust thing works?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Sep 23, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
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I already discussed Mercola's claim. NWO. Are you having a senior moment? Can't read the link?
Do you stand by the reptile ruling us claim from your trusted source David Icke?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Sep 23, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
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The harvard study said there is danger from high flouride concentrations.
Well duh?
Mercola's opinion piece then tried to make the same claim for low flouride concentrations.
Now how about that reptile thing from your trusted source? Do you still believe they rule us?
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Sep 23, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
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OK, I guess we won't get an answer about that reptile claim from your trusted source.
Good luck with that claim, NWO.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Sep 23, 2017 - 08:53pm PT
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Drinking your own urine can cure many ailments...Unless there's too much flouride....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
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It's a known fact that the modern gross materialists will slowly poison themselves to death with a lot of that sh!t
those st00pid modern scientists develop to make our lives so-called better.
The gross materialists will even argue about it until it kills em.
That's why they're "gross" materialists ......
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 23, 2017 - 11:07pm PT
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It's a known fact that the modern gross materialists will slowly poison themselves to death with a lot of that sh!t
And what did the ancient gross materialists do that was any different?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 08:39am PT
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A dielectric blocker, like fluoride, discharges the DC current that is normally stored in cell water after sunlight creates the EZ ( exclusion zone) in the water that mitochondria make. That water creates much of the cytosolic environment inside cells and it also augments the extracellular water around cells. In this way, fluoride, lessens the battery capacity of water. Water ceases to be an ideal repository for light or any other electromagnetic wave when Fluoride is present. …
Fluoride began to be added to drinking water long before a lot more was known about cellular biology. It is still added because of ignorance and money.
Fluoride in general reduces the redox potential in the human body.
Carbon filters will not remove fluoride from water but reverse osmosis filters will.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 08:57am PT
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Fluoride (ppm)
2016
2.0
1
0.452
0.21–0.59
0.73
0.6–1.0
No
Erosion of natural deposits; water additive that promotes strong teeth; discharge from fertilizer and aluminum factories
SUBSTANCE (UNIT OF MEASURE)
YEAR SAMPLED
MCL [MRDL]
PHG MCLG) [MRDLG]
AMOUNT DETECTED
RANGE LOW-HIGH
AMOUNT DETECTED
RANGE LOW-HIGH
VIOLATION
TYPICAL SOURCE
SUBSTANCE (UNIT OF MEASURE) Fluoride (ppm)
YEAR SAMPLED 2016
MCL [MRDL] 2
PHG MCLG) [MRDLG] 1
AMOUNT DETECTED 0.452
RANGE LOW-HIGH 0.21–0.59
AMOUNT DETECTED 0.73
RANGE LOW-HIGH 0.6–1.0
VIOLATION No
TYPICAL SOURCE Erosion of natural deposits; water additive that promotes strong teeth; discharge from fertilizer and aluminum factories
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 08:59am PT
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And what did the ancient gross materialists do that was any different?
They didn't poison the planet like these modern fools ......
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Nuglet
Trad climber
Orange Murica!
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Sep 25, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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Fluoride makes you into a Trump voter
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 09:49am PT
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That's why you voted for Trump ^^^^
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 10:15am PT
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A “catastrophic sleep-loss epidemic” is causing a host of potentially fatal diseases, a leading expert says.
Scientists just discovered the first brainless animal that sleeps
Nerve implant 'restores consciousness' to man in vegetative state
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Sep 25, 2017 - 10:16am PT
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100% cholesterol-free man lives without brain for years, participates in political process
Fluorine gave me teeth, try this one simple hack - it worked for me
40 Mn Americans are errors - are you one of them?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 25, 2017 - 04:19pm PT
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You tell us Moose. When you said you walked with a limp, I didn't realize you were referring to..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 25, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
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Hey, the f*#king world ended on September 23rd and you're still worried about this sh#t?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
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The world ends every night at 12:00pm and starts new at 12:01 ......
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 25, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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I think I get the picture Moose, and its not pretty. and what's worse, you can't call yourself a hardman anymore
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
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The world ends every night at 12:00pm and starts new at 12:01 ......
But what a difference a second makes. Where x = 1 second and Δx -> ∞
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 25, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
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The harmful effects (hard-on reduction) of using fluoride can be countered by wearing a helmet sticker holy card of St. Bucky the Beaver.
If you don't climb, use one on your biking helmet, skiing helmet, whatever.
Cheer up, Moose!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 25, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
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Where?
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