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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
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GDavis,
Thanks for your story. I was hoping for that kind of dialogue here. As a parent I have lots to learn from a story like yours. Much appreciated as we maintain balance in raising our pups.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Micro wrote,
No Fructose, they haven't.
For clarification sake: Is this (a) just because they haven't gotten around to it; or (b) because such a series (as seen, for instance, from a traditional Christian perspective) is inappropriate material?
.....
Gabriel's doing a 1:100,000 scale of a lagging strand rna sequence in Legos
Nice. Picture?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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One thing I really cherished about my experience, since my mom was a microbiology major she would always take us to the wild animal park. She was an amazing teacher (I transitioned to public school a bit smarter than everyone, then after having to hide behind bathrooms instead of study that kinda tanked...) and we would borrow the school house there and 20 kids from our church would all pile into a few vans and we would learn about different animals and mammals and fur and what it did.... amazing stuff you would get maybe once in a lifetime of public school we did perhaps 20 times :D.
Education is kind of a big word and encorporates a lot of things, teach them California Geology and plate tectonics in the sierra and ecosystems in Josh, take them to planetariums and get a big telescope to the night sky. Teach them to drive in the snow, to balance a checkbook, to be nice to strangers and tip well, to write a good resume and understand that everyone has seen a completely different world with their eyes so we might have a different perspective but we don't have all the answers. Lots out there in the real world, its always better to learn there!
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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Fructose. To answer your question, no, not because it's "forbidden". Thats silly. You can probably tell that I'm a christian. But I was pre-med, a microbiology major and I completed a doctorate in bone physiology while doing my surgical residency. Plenty of great science in my background. I like Sagan's work but I have different religious views. I'd be stoked to show my kids his work. I just did a nice little discussion with my boys on Darwin's work and macro vs micro evolution. I'm all for educating my kids from all different angles, while keeping the renants of christianity intact and uncompromised.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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When I was their age I was more into cartoons : / probably woulda zoned out haha.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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no, not because they it's "forbidden". Thats silly.
Well that's a step up, nice. :)
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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Jan 26, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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Although I disagree on some points in the original post I think the most important factor in a child's development and education is in fact parent involvement. This is obviously a huge factor when it comes to home schooling but it is just as important when a child attends a traditional school. As a pubic high school teacher I can honestly say that one of the biggest indicators on whether a child will succeed in school is whether the parents are involved in the childs education and do they view education as valuable and important. In my experience if the parent doesn't care and make it a priority than the child won't either. So from a home school perspective it provides the parent with a unique but extremely challenging opportunity to instill in their child a love of learning and to model what being a life-long learner looks like. There are always the challenges of resources and content knowledge of the parents, (lets be honest there aren't that many parents who are able to teach high level math and science like chemistry, physics, and calculus). The other main issue that has been eluded to earlier in the thread is that home schooling is a luxury that most families can't afford because a huge proportion of American children grow up in single parent homes. The real problem with the American educational system isn't in the schools, its a result of the breakdown of the family and poverty and these are problems that the school can't fix. If you look at middle and upper class school districts they test as well as anyone. The other issue is that rich school districts get more funding because of higher property taxes. The school district in Boulder contributes an additional $1000 per student while the poor district I teach in contributes $50 per student. Is it really a surprise that poor inner city schools are struggling when poor inner city communities are also struggling.
p.s if you're teaching your kids to defend intelligent design then you are definitely doing them a disservice. Intelligent design holds no scientific weight and the evidence supporting evolution is overwhelming. DNA structure/replication and RNA structure actually support natural selection instead of contradicting it. Natural selection and evolution is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory and that's what they will encounter in college. If thats the case it's hard to see how homeschooling isn't just a mechanism to make sure your kids see the world as the parent does and not able to make that call for themselves.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 26, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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But not every public school hits the mark in this state. In fact, I would say that high quality public schools are more the exception than the rule
Unfortunately I would need to agree with this....and I hate to say that because I am a retired public school administrator (Assistant superintendent in several districts and served 8 years on a local school board). And I disagree vehemently that it's the union, lazy teachers or "parents that don't care". California public schools are under the thumb of politicians who influence every curriculum mandate therefore Ca school curriculum becomes a cornucopia of what ever was in vogue that session.
Do we sometimes encounter lousy teachers and admin? Yes, just like we do in any profession, and like any profession they are NOT the norm. Just as "parents that don't care" are not the norm. And any educator or other parents that use that as a reason that the school system can't do an effective job is just scapegoating. Get politicians out of deciding curriculum and let the professional educators and local control be in charge of our schools and you would see dramatic differences in the under performing schools. Just because every politician went to school suddenly they feel they know how to run schools. Schools ARE NOT businesses and the lame thinking that if you just ran a school like HP orIBM or some other business model is just that, lame thinking.
Done, gonna go walk dogs.
Susan
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 02:19pm PT
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Spanky,
Great points. For single parents, this is not an option sadly. Its a bummer for a kid to grow up with a single parent for so many reasons. My hats off to single parents worin hard and trying to do it right. However, my wife used to homeschool four boys whose parents didn't want to do it themselves. This is what piqued our interest originally on one level. There are options.
But I agree they are oftencost prohibitive for many.
Actually right now, my wife teaches German to three kids for free on the days she teaches our kids foreign language.
I disagree on your take on intelligent design. I just happen to think a loving and omniscient creator made the amazing biological system we see. No big deal.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 26, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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To not consider the possibility that "intelligence" is a "force" for lack of a better term inherent in all the universe seems to be quite unscientific. That there is not any strong evidence for it is a reasonable argument.. but to completely dismiss the possibility is as bad as dismissing evolution or other well established facts.
Religious beliefs have little bearing on the ability to earn any degree. To excel in any field of science. In science one works with the task in front of them , the techniques necessary to answer specific questions. Ruling things in or out based on observation. Belief is not necessary nor does it particularly interfere.
The belief of the atheist or the devout is a problem for both if they use it as an excuse not to be capable of working well with either group of people.
I am quite sure Micro is given his children an amazing foundation which will serve them well in whatever endeavors they choose in life. Better than most get it seems. What more can you ask for in an "education"?
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckistan
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Jan 26, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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I think all parents ought to be involved in home-schooling, but not necessarily to the extent of keeping their children at home and away from school. The attitudes towards education, the respect for curiosity, the rewards of discovery, the work habits, the time-management skills, the tolerance for frustration, and the ability to work for long-term goals are things that, I think, you get from home. I think everyone involved in education wishes that all parents cared as much as those who choose to home-school.
Long story short - socially adapting them to the real world is tricky and if you haven't provided that as well as their education you are doing them a horrible disservice.
If you are doing this for an idealogical reason, it is very likely one or more of your kids will resent the sh#t out of you for that once they figure out science.
+1 RGold and GDavis
another perspective here: i started out being home schooled by a grandma who was a former teacher, spent elementary being educated in a religious one room school with an average of five other students [for most of those years i was the only kid in my grade], and then transferred to a central rural public school for 7-12. and no i'm not 75 - haha. for all intents and purposes the one room school was a religious home schooling.
from my experience, to see this as a black or a white proposition is impossible. there were major problems with public education - especially at a smaller public school. the most important issue being the one size fits all approach to a spectrum of individuals with varying motivations, abilities and interests. on the flip side moving from a tiny, insular, religious school to a more normative public school was a social train wreck for quite some time.
in retrospect, i don't know if there were any easy solutions in my case. i'm glad i didn't have to deal with the cookie cutter approach of a large school, for at least a few years. i was given more latitude to study at my own pace and gain confidence in my own ability to learn. those experiences have been invaluable.
on the other hand in jr. and sr. high school i had [a couple of] very influential teachers who significantly changed the course of my life. and probably more importantly, while it was painful to deal with a more normal social order, i'm glad i didn't wait until i was any older to have to learn some of the ins and outs of the human animal.
not sure if there is a take away point to this. but if i lean anywhere i lean towards the quotes at the top. i think that in general the exposure to teachers with varied specializations, passions and viewpoints is paramount. and i think that socialization is difficult if, as a child, you've only been exposed to other children who were home schooled.
i will say this: to successfully pull off home schooling requires individual children and parents that are rare. i wouldn't go so far as to say it can't be done. it's just an uphill road. a parent trying to do this has to replace a lot of infrastructure. and from a political, betterment of society as a whole, stance i have a hard time seeing how withdrawing from a flawed system is helpful in the long run.
to be blunt, saying a system is f*#ked and that the solution is to disengage often smells of arrogance and a deluded understanding of what a person is giving and taking from said system. i.e. the people who are best able to do this [home schooling takes a lot of financial and temporal resources to be handled properly] are often also the people most needed by a public system which is admittedly flawed and often hurting.
hmm.. i guess there is a point there after all.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jan 26, 2013 - 05:19pm PT
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As a pubic high school teacher I can honestly say . . .
Spanky, not sure I want to know what course that is! :)
Parents can be very involved without home schooling. There is one thing parents can all do to jump start their child's education, READ TO THEM 20 minutes EVERY DAY. I did this starting before my son was a year old. It was our routine. We got books at the thrift stores for a quarter and read them over and over. Preschool had a rule, every parent had to read with their child for 15 minutes when they dropped them off. As a direct result of lots of reading my son is at least two grades advanced in reading and vocabulary.
Here is a link to a great story about a parent reading to their child, it really resonates with me. http://www.npr.org/2011/06/18/137223191/father-daughter-reading-streak-lasts-nearly-9-years
Not sure why I even read Donald's comments, I know it is killing my brain cells
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Relic
Social climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jan 26, 2013 - 05:49pm PT
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Bek's doin' addition.
Gabriel (4th grade) is reading Conrad's Heart of Darkness.....not your normal Calif. reading level/list
Sierra is digging into the heavy writings of Martin Luther.
+1 for your kids. Wow, that is amazing Micronut!
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
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It's raining off and on in Fresno today so I'm wasting a day playing in front of the computer. Haven't read the last few posts, probably won't from the look of things.
We gotta run. Swim meet today. Brrr.
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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Jan 26, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
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I am not particularly for or against home schooling your kids, I think it's likely to be unique and cool and what a great chance to spend quality time with your kids in a world where that is unfortunately lacking in lots of families.
That said-
I also think it's a pretty small sample of Americans who would describe their kids' fellow students in school as "lusty".
Certainly there must be far more extreme cases of evangelical christian parents doing their home schooling thing and in doing so putting their kids in a bubble of sorts (until they are ready for southern bible colleges?), and certainly to some degree 'home schooling' itself is going to be lightly associated with evangelical christians, juts because home schooling is so common in that community, but we would all agree that one CAN home school their kids without keeping them in a bubble at all.
Again, when you describe other kids as "lusty", you do invite the comparison, but whatever, it's only what other people think (or wonder), so who cares anyway...
For me, I think if kids are lusty, all the better to have your kids around that so you can assist them as they learn to deal with it, socially.
Best of luck either way, on parent to another.
-Matt
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Jan 26, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
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This has become way way boring
I'm done with this
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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Matt,
When I say "lusty", I'm not talking about anything new. Its your typical Fast Times at Ridgemont High out there. Always has been. From Fast Times to Dazed and Confused to whatever movie kids are watching these days, teenagers haven't changed. They grow up in a hip hop culture now. The things that battle for their identities are sex, wealth, internet fame, aquiring stuff, image......it's lust. And its more pervasive than ever. And they'll desl with it.....after they have developed a strong sense if self. My teenager, however, IS being brought up different. She is genuinely a giving human. Genuinely into good music, healthy reading, healthy friendships and she does not crave all the filth of the world. Its not that we keep the world from them, its that we raise them with a clear view of who they are and what they should strive for. And for us, its coming toghether well. Our kids do look and act differently from the masses. And hopefully they are a light among thier friends and their community.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 26, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
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Hey, I thought you were heading to the slopes.
Anyways, curious as to how you would teach your kids as a Christian about demons and such. If they asked you point blank if demons exists or if exorcism is a valid approach to mental or spiritual health, how would you handle it?
If your littlest one asked you, Dad, what is superstition? how would you answer. Curious if you'd have any examples. I've always found it interesting that Christian leadership goes out of its way it seems esp in the modern age to NOT talk about superstitions or demons. Let alone demonic possession.
Are you a believer in demonic possession? Just curious as it relates to this subject. Or have you personally moved beyond this traditional theological doctrine?
Along more earthly lines, as you know kids ask the strangest questions. If you were asked, Dad, what makes animals go, is it a spirit? how would you answer? Would you say you don't know. Would you say it results from their body's control system? their organs and tissues? their metabolism? Would you say they have an immaterial soul or spirit just like we humans and this spirit directs the body's flesh and bones?
As a college educated individual, you'd certainly answer these curious probing questions differently from the average Tom, Dick and Mary no doubt.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jan 26, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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I'm neither a booster nor a detractor, but I found it interesting that no one so far has mentioned how homeschooling in this country serves to reinforce traditional sex roles in a very 1950's kind of way that limits women's potential. Pretty much everyone posting is a guy in favor, but we haven't heard from any of the moms who are so happy to give up their professional lives and educations to homeschool their children.
Mr Thompson's rather rude blather aside, Dave Kos was pretty factual and non-partisan in stating that most homeschoolers approach the task from a religious conservative position. Its certainly true for at least 80% of the homeschoolers I've known, and I wonder if that plays a role in the silence about reinforced gender stereotypes, since most religious conservatives would just as soon the woman stayed at home, its where they belong anyway, right? So, being curious, I did a little research, and found this interesting article from 12 years ago: http://homeedmag.com/HEM/176/ndsexist.php It asks the question, and provides some background, but doesn't offer an answer.
I thought this secular homeschooling blog was interesting too: http://www.rebelhomeschool.com/
Personally, I think many homeschooled children benefit from the increased involvement and interest of their parents, which is also a marker for children who do well in public schools. I think the positive involvement is the essential bit, and there are any number of ways to do that.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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Ok. I really gotta run, but Fructose if you're serious I'll answer those questions later. Maybe tomorrow? If you'll stay in the conversation I'll take the time to answer.
Over and out. Have a good weekend all.
Scott
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