Homeschooling: Here's my take on it, What's yours?

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micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 25, 2013 - 07:25pm PT

I was at first a dad who was reluctant to homeschool my kids. My wife brought me the idea ten years ago, but I took some time to warm up to it.

I was worried they'd be weird. Strange. Disconnected from social reality. We all knew "that homeschool kid" from when we were young.

But now we're now almost eight years into it with a kindergardener, a fourth grader and a freshman in high school. And it has turned out to be one of the best decisions of my life. What a joy and an honor to parent and teach these kids.

Today at the Fresno Museum of Arts

My wife lines em up daily and its Little House on The Prairie in the kitchen. With a spread from K through 9th its a bit comical but heartwarming to watch.

Here's the table right now.
Bek's doin' addition.
Gabriel (4th grade) is reading Conrad's Heart of Darkness.....not your normal Calif. reading level/list
Sierra is digging into the heavy writings of Martin Luther.
Lego creations abound throughout the home. "Its a mega nuclear alien hunter/destroyer craft"

My kids can't play public school team sports, which is a bit of a drag, but they do club sports, (Sierra is one of the state's fastest 100M backstrokers in the 14 yo age group)church league basketball (and really...are half asians ever gonna play in the NBA).....But would you rather have your kid doing triple day macho dad t-ball or learning to tie their own knots.

"Always check your buddy Dad."

And Sierra may not go to the Prom if she chooses to stay homeschooled. Maybe just a nice evening at the opera or something with a group of homeschool friends? Is that so bad?

The world tells you your kids will be weirdos if they aren't in school.....but this is what I trade in return:

-A dumbed down Calif. Curriculum vs. Teaching how and what we deem important

-Bullies and school shootings vs. A caring and safe environment

-A worldview shaped by lusty, lazy classmates with home issues vs. A solid identity based in love and respect

-Friday night lights football(I do miss it) vs. Trad climbing with with my kids (no contest)

-Truancy vs. Family adventure Wednesdays whenever we want

The list goes on and on in my opinion. I had a great education, good country schools and a great college and solid education at the Medical College of Georgia. But times have changed. I'm diggin' the way they are turning out. The proof is in the puddin' so far. We're far from perfect and we learn as we go. But for now I'm all for homeschooling if its done right.

I'd love to know more insight or thoughts if you got em.

ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber

SLO, Ca

Jan 25, 2013 - 07:37pm PT

My aunt and uncle did it with 4 boys and they all turned out great.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 07:47pm PT

A lot of people homeschool in my neck of the woods and in my opinion the only thing missing is a shell.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Jan 25, 2013 - 07:54pm PT

I was homeschooled until high school started. We moved around a fair bit, must have made sense to my parents.

Not so en vogue during the early 80's either.

HS was a joke, so I dropped out after sophmore year, started a business, recieved my Good Enough Degree, went to college with the rest of my friends...

I would never change one part of my upbringing, or my parents decision to keep me at home.

Good for you Micro, your kids will thank you for the real world experiences you have shared together.

rectorsquid

climber

Lake Tahoe

Jan 25, 2013 - 07:56pm PT

I know of a couple in which the male was completely for home schooling. That was, until he found out that he would have to do some of it and it would impinge on his ability to do other stuff like go on skiing trips.

I get the impression that the female does most of the kids upbringing when it comes to daily kid management.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Jan 25, 2013 - 07:57pm PT

Homeschooling? I grew up with a load of home schooled kids.

The schooling is only as good as the parents. Most turn out fine. A few great.. some not so great.

I guess that's no different than regular schools though come to think of it.

WBraun

climber

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:00pm PT

Kauk was home schooled.

He left the stupid worldly school and joined us all in school of Camp4 ..... :-)

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:07pm PT

-A dumbed down Calif. Curriculum vs. Teaching how and what we deem important

let me guess yer pissed cuz God aint allowed in school.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:27pm PT

The home schooled kids I saw were close to universally doing awesome. It takes more time and commitment from parents, but the end result appears to be a superior product. It was a harder row to hoe than my wife and I wanted though *cough*lazy*cough.

Big respect for those that choose that path.

Oh, and Kennyt, clearly you have no clue what you are talking about.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:32pm PT

Oh, and Kennyt, clearly you have no clue what you are talking about.

Thank you for your opinion prof.

hobo_dan

Social climber

Minnesota

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:36pm PT

I've been teaching 9th grade since 1986. Pretty much every home school kid (except one) that I have had were very very polite and quiet. Very polite and very quiet-They tended to gravitate toward adults. Too much so IMO. I'm not sure how to say this, but it felt like they were missing something.
I think that there is a huge value in letting children be together--In their own crude and cruel way they teach each other lessons that adults are unable to communicate. They drag each other kicking and screaming into the world--unfiltered by adult supervision.
I'm not trying to be a killjoy for you and your children but sometimes adults try to polish things a little too perfect--I always liked the kids with some rough edges
Home school kids look good in Museums and in Science fairs and shti like that but............well.....this is what I've seen FWIW.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:37pm PT

Cragman, All of us working people who are stuck with the "dumbed down california curriculim" will have to be satisfied with our kids working for yours and micronuts.LOL

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:39pm PT

++ 100 for hobo_dan

LilaBiene

Trad climber

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:45pm PT

Thanks for some great "food for thought" -- yet another reason ST is so awesome -- connection to folks with ideas different than your own that really get you to thinking...and expanding your understanding and view of the world.

I never would have googled "home schooling", but your thoughtful post (as so many of your others) with pictures reached me on another level.

Last week the muppet's preschool teachers gave me an "evaluation" at least 10+ pages long where she is compared to other preschoolers nationally in I don't remember how many categories. She's 3.5 years old. She'll be evaluated again in the Spring. My own mind started to wander about three pages in because I couldn't make sense out of the format or what it was meant to convey. Words and lines and comparisons.

I realized reading your story that I am actually dreading putting the muppet in kindergarden. We don't enjoy sitting still for long periods of time, or learning from written materials. We like to "do"...we're kinesthetic. And we have an overabundance of energy that needs physical and creative outlets or we get temperamental (or worse, we retreat into ourselves).

There are concerns about all that energy, challenges with self expression, speaking ever so softly and inverting/getting things backwards. All of this I know intrinsically as reflections of myself in her. And I also know how it feels to have people all your life long trying to make you into something that you are not, for lack of understanding or simply a preconceived notion that everyone should fit a certain mold because different is not good and needs to be fixed (there are National standards, don't you know?).

Mark Powell told me last fall how and why the nickname "Dolt" came about. He said that the things that came out of Bill's mouth didn't make any sense, to which he would respond (affectionately, bluntly, as only a true friend can): "You DOLT!" I was in stitches.

"I know," I said, laughing, while trying to breathe and regain my sense of decorum. "No, I mean I REALLY KNOW!" (But I couldn't, at that very moment, explain why. There were too many emotions, ideas and words tumbling over themselves in my head to SAY anything. I promptly shut my mouth.)

While I didn't have the benefit of this mirror of understanding growing up (well, until 10 months ago that is -- lol), I don't want the muppet to suffer the feelings of having her wings clipped to keep her on the ground with the rest of the flock. Thank you for helping me realize that there are choices in teaching my little muppet to fly.

A

stevep

Boulder climber

Salt Lake, UT

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:46pm PT

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit with what to do with my daughter. Here in SLC, she's definitely in a minority as a non-LDS kid. And Asian on top of it. Even at 10, the cliquishness starts.
Don't know that I or my wife have the time or or patience to do the homeschooling thing even if we wanted to. But I can see some advantages.

OTOH, I would be very wary of the socialization thing. Getting kids out and doing things with others of their age is very important. Where I went to college, there was a home-schooled 16 yr old. Brillant kid, but absolutely lost socially. Classes were small, and he didn't have the first clue how to interact with others, which was essential. It was very hard for him.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:50pm PT

Crag, In yer spare time can you post up all the famous public schooled folks? Just the success stories though keep it fair

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:52pm PT

I'm sure an equally impressive compendium can be made with publicly schooled kids.
It is pretty meaningless IMHO.

My question is to all the college admissions people out there: it seems
that more and more these days admission to the more coveted schools depends
a whole lot more on stuff other than just your grades, right? It would seem more
difficult for the home-schooled kid to present an impressive extracurricular
curriculum vitae. But then I suppose too much cachet is given to getting a
BA at a 'premium' school. Some of my nieces and nephews went to 'premium'
schools and I am not impressed with what they came away with.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 08:56pm PT

When my kids are old enough to belay We will start homeschooling. That's what would be best for me!

Nohea

Trad climber

Living Outside the Statist Quo

Jan 25, 2013 - 09:24pm PT

I teach at a public HS and fully support the home school concept. I had a student on my debate team last year and he was in one of my classes. He was home schooled thru 8th grade and he was a straight A student. His presentations and debates were excellent. Like others said its all on how it's done and if it were my kids, I'd put the trust in the wife and I.

Sounds like your producing some great success.

I also support vouchers, what's wrong with a little competition?

Aloha,
Will

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 09:24pm PT

Another famous homeschooled person Katie Morgan. YeahKatie was born and raised in Reseda, Los Angeles, California in an extremely religious family. She was home-schooled for the entirety of her school career. She claims to have lost her virginity at age 16 with her first boyfriend in a church parking lot where she was teaching Sunday School. She first married in 1998 at age 18 to another man whom she had known since age 12 through Church Camp.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 25, 2013 - 09:36pm PT

Home schooling implies that some one needs to be at home in order to see to the children's education. This is no longer an option for the majority of the American populace. Quite simply it now requires two incomes to live the American Dream!

If you have the luxury of home schooling your children you should be very grateful, and you should realize that most of us cannot afford to do so.

The unwashed masses are left in the public school morass.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Jan 25, 2013 - 09:50pm PT

Just to share a story. Most of the home schooled kids I know are great but...

I had two home schooled girls (age 14 and 17)and their mom working for me for a few seasons at The Ren-Faire. Mom was a single parent doing the home schooling.

The whole family was likeable, bright, whizzes at doing math in their heads and not socially awkward at all (extroverted if anything). They were my top sales people making triple the commission the other employees were.

... I was sad to find out after a few years that neither of the girls could read or write. (They were very skilled at hiding the fact). Mom couldn't read well, so she sort of left that part out of the home-schooling. It kinda made me mad when I found out. It seemed like a pretty critical skill for life in the real world. The kids were brilliant and mom basically slammed the door on a lot of opportunities for them. They were able to enroll in classes later to learn, but I'm sure it was a bit rough learning to read in your 20's.

SCseagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz

Jan 25, 2013 - 09:50pm PT

Micronut... Are your kids being homeschooled privately or under the auspices of your public school district? I was a district office administrator for most of my career and I administered our "homeschooling" programs. A public school district calls them "homeschooling" because that is easily understood. Legally, they are "full time independent study". All students in a district run full time independent study are legally allowed access to all the activities the district offers such as sports, dances etc. Many districts don't adhere to that or try to implement policies to circumvent that. I've been retired a couple years but I don't think that has changed for programs operated by the district. Just some info

Another thing....California still has compulsory attendance laws so "homeschooling" is technically illegal unless you do it through an authorized school or agency or get an "affidavit" usually from a county office of education....and typically they are just given out with no checking to see if the "teacher" is capable of educating.

Susan

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:08pm PT

Like, food, shelter and clothing. Cragman,please tell me I misread that your wife is a public school teacher but you homeschool your kids.

Srbphoto

climber

Kennewick wa

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:13pm PT

My take on it is it works because the parents are very involved. Most of those kids would do well in a public school because their parents would still be very involved. I worked with a great kid who was home schooled. She was so happy when, at 16, her parents let her go to a "real" school (a small private school). Why? She got to spend more time with other kids and teachers for a more rounded point of view (that was her reasoning). If all parents spent 2 or 3 hours working on their kids school work with them I think we would see the return of our high standards.

BTW I have a 1st and 5th grader. Both at an excellent public school. It's excellent because the parents at the school are some the most engaged and involved I have seen. We (and by "we" I mean mostly my wife, I'm at work :) spend a couple of hours every day on various school work (even during weekends and the summer).

EDIT: fortunately they take after their Mom. Those Indians don't fool around when it comes to education (haha)

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:19pm PT

My take?

If you're doing it primarily to give your kids a Christian bible education, like millions are, it's terribly misguided.

Or for prayer in school reasons, again, terribly misguided.

This is the 21st century, parents. Your kids and theirs are going to have to compete against the Asian Indians and the Chinese in an overpopulated highly competitive world. Keep that in mind. Would your homeschooling include Chinese as well as calculus? Mine would. :)

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:21pm PT

My wife left her job 3 years ago to be at home with the kids before and after school. She also volunteers at their school 3 days a week to try and make a difference. I get sick of this my kids can't live up to their potential at public school bullsh#t. Get out their and try to make it better for all the kids not just your own.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:24pm PT

Cragman . . . let me be clear, the vast majority of the American populace cannot afford for mom to stay at home and school the chilluns. Those who are fortunate enough to do so are in the minority. It is simply not an option.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:26pm PT

Kalimon, You need to sacrifice more! What you don't love yer kids?

Srbphoto

climber

Kennewick wa

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:31pm PT

It is simply not an option.

Is this true? Yes, for many. But for many of the "we both have to work" whinning is hard to take when the family has iphones, computers, multiple cars, etc. For many 2 income households it's not that they can't do it, it's they are not willing to sacrifice "stuff" for it.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:33pm PT

I think it is wonderful to home school your children! It is unfortunately a luxury that few can afford. Even healthy food can be a precious commodity for many of the less fortunate in our country.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:35pm PT

Dude, the people I refer to are most certainly not sporting the latest technical gadgetry . . . you need to get out of your suburban cage.

Bruce Morris

Social climber

Belmont, California

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:37pm PT

My general impression is that home schoolers are fundamentalist Christians who don't want their kids to pick up secular humanist values in the public school system.

Srbphoto

climber

Kennewick wa

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:39pm PT

Kalimon - People who truly are in those situations have my sympathy and empathy.

EDIT Dude, I am not trapped in a "suburban cage". You don't enough about me or my upbringing to make that statement, Dude!

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:43pm PT

A dumbed down Calif. Curriculum vs. Teaching how and what we deem important

"How and what we deem important" is not a general prescription for an education that is either high-quality or well-rounded. Maybe some of the "unimportant" things done in the schools would be unexpectedly valuable.

Bullies and school shootings vs. A caring and safe environment

Yes, but bullies and school shootings, in spite of the terrible things we read about, are not characteristic of children's school experiences.

A worldview shaped by lusty, lazy classmates with home issues vs. A solid identity based in love and respect

Wow, that really disses the majority of school students. I would caution you to not allow these attitudes to color your children's view of the world, because their worldview, in or out of school, is going to be primarily shaped by your worldview.

Friday night lights football(I do miss it) vs. Trad climbing with with my kids (no contest)

A good school will have all kinds of clubs, sports, and activities, some of which the parents may know nothing about. Just because we love climbing is no reason to suppose it is appropriate for our children.

Truancy vs. Family adventure Wednesdays whenever we want

Do you make up the educational time on task lost on those wonderful Wednesdays?

There is little doubt that home-schooling done right, is as good or better than the best public schools. Unfortunately, this is just a definition "done right," nothing more. I honestly have my doubts about many parents, even assuming they have the time, financial resources, and ability to re-educate themselves, being up to the task of doing English, History, Social Studies, Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and Foreign Language(s), just to mention some basic core subjects, and I suspect the "what we deem important" clause comes into play both by direct choice and by at least semi-unconscious avoidance.

I'm also sure some people can pull it off, but a lot fewer than the number who are actually trying. Yes, there is mediocre and worse schooling, but this is true both in and out of the home.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:55pm PT

My general impression is that home schoolers are fundamentalist Christians who don't want their kids to pick up secular humanist values in the public school system.

The funny thing is that I was ignorant to the whole religious right aspect to home schooling . . . but of course they do not want their children subject to reality! Scary stuff out there.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber

www.climbaddictdesigns.com

Jan 25, 2013 - 10:56pm PT

I never knew of any home-schooled kids when I was young, and admit I was pretty oblivious that it was even occurring until about 10 years ago. Seemed to become a media topic, along with some other subjects, right around the 911 time.

But as for it being religious fundamentalists who home school, I did know one climber who was home schooling his, and yes, the kids seemed very well behaved, intelligent and aware. They were also filled with fun and energy. And I am pretty sure this guy is an agnostic or atheist.

At any rate - good for those who care about their children, wherever the kid is educated! There are too many whose parents don't.

Gunks Guy

Trad climber

Woodstock, NY

Jan 25, 2013 - 11:03pm PT

Homeschooling - It never ceases to amaze me what passionate opinions it generates in people who not only have little-to-no experience with it, but have little reason to care about it. What is it about it that sticks in your craw? I am curious because, from what I can tell, choosing to homeschool is an intensely personal decision that has little impact on you or the rest of the world yet requires incredible dedication and personal sacrifice. I really am curious to know what it is that bugs you so much.

Obviously, this post is directed at the detractors.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 25, 2013 - 11:04pm PT

Forget the bouldering there...go to the North Shore and take the kids on a zipline tour.....you'll all have a blast!

That's what all the poor folk do when they are in Hawaii, when they are on home school holiday.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 25, 2013 - 11:19pm PT

Homeschooling is like homebuilding.

For every one done right, there's probably five to ten done poorly.

Depends on your standards.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 11:49pm PT

Kennyt

Two points.

1. Anybody who values their children and wants to homeschool can, regardless of income. We have three close friends who are strapped financially but choose to homeschool (3-6 kids each family) Dad is a PE teacher at a small country school. Mom stays home. The other is a youth pastor. Mom stays home. TOTAL family income in the 30-50Krange. They do not eat out. They go out to a movie rarely. They have old phones and no cable. But they have great kids who are growing up healthy, smart, and well rounded. And these moms have college degrees. Could be out makin' that cash. But they choose to put their time talent and energy into something other than themselves.

2. I dig a good public school. Two of my four went to public school for some time and had good experiences. We had some good teachers and some not so good. Many of their friends are public schoolers. They just like homeschool more and we dig it and the fruit we see in their lives is our barometer.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2013 - 11:54pm PT

Also,

You're hosed if you try to homeschool to "keep your kids away from the world" or to "protect them from it".

They're gonna live in it for the rest of their lives. They need to know how to navigate it and be in it but not "of" it, if that makes sense. Homeschooling lets us prepare their hearts and minds and logic and creativity to to grow up healthy, with a strong, confident identity so they can grow up to be amazing plumbers, physicians, lawyers, starving artists, dirtbag climbers or whatever they want to be.

graniteclimber

Trad climber

The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division

Jan 25, 2013 - 11:56pm PT

I'm glad that your children are doing great in a homeschooling setting.

A dumbed down Calif. Curriculum vs. Teaching how and what we deem important

-Bullies and school shootings vs. A caring and safe environment

-A worldview shaped by lusty, lazy classmates with home issues vs. A solid identity based in love and respect

These are all strawman arguments. If you live in a bad area with bad schools, bad teachers, bads peers, then this is true. But there are lots of good schools that teach challenging curriculums in caring and save environments and with classmates that are every bit as smart and inquisitive as your own, and who add to the experience and whose ideas help your children develop their own worldview based not just on what you the parent is teaching.

Just sayin.

Go ahead. Pat yourself on the back. But not too hard.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:05am PT

Rgold. My take on your points.

1. I don't really worry about bullies and shootings. I was kinda exaggerating. sorry.

2. I DO believe in the generalization that today's youth are basically lusty and lazy. My oldest daughter teaches freshman high school math. Day in, day out in a middle america high school. I see teenage patients daily and spend time getting to know them. That's my general characteristic of what I see and hear about personally and I'm stickin' to it as a basic generalization. But there are still plenty of great kids out there.

3. Sadly, the Calif. school systems are dumbing down in many ways. Everybody loses. From kids who struggle to mid level learners to high achievers. The new "common core" stuff has promise across the board, but is going to take a while to implement.

4. We are college minded, both my wife and I are pretty educated. SO we're gonna be on that track with what we teach and know that they need big SAT scores, since homeschool grades are arbitrary pretty much. And college admissions depts know that. My kids are testing super high in STAR and PSAT tests right now, so I'm not worried about the core of their curriculum. We play a ton as a family. And we teach about gardening, wilderness first aid, masonry, engines, bouldering, bridge building with legos, etc...AFTER they have the required stuff in the bag.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:08am PT

Cragman now quotes Ghandi . . . priceless!

Snowmassguy

Trad climber

Calirado

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:15am PT

One of my children plays competitive sports at a very high level. Probably half of the kids on her team are home schooled. These are kids that you very well might see at the Olympics or at least competing on the international stage. They started training 2 X per day ( AM and PM). Out of state travel 2-3x per month, some traveling internationally for weeks at a time. No way you could do it to the fullest level and attend regular school. Seems most of the home schooling is done on line these days ( at least in my kids circle). These kids are all getting athletic scholarships to top universities but their primary focus is on the sport. Seems to work well for them or at least that is my impression.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:20am PT

Snowmassguy . . . you are part of the exception to the rule . . . you yuppies do not understand your privileged position in the new world order. Poor kids don't get to play your silly games.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:25am PT

Kalimon.

You are wrong bro. My daughter has two homeschooled kids on her club swim team. Both are getting full rides to UC systems. (one educationally one athletically) Both have parents who are struggling financially. Mom stays home. Dad has a low end job, just gettin by.

Its a pretty good gig for kids if parents value their future.

Parents income is not an issue. We have 200 kids in our homeschool group. Most of the families are very humble financially. Very.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:26am PT

But, its not for everybody. You can really mess up a kid if you are a lame parent or a lame teacher or both.

Snowmassguy

Trad climber

Calirado

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:27am PT

Kalimon I would have to disagree with you on that one. If a kid has enough talent in modern youth sports, it is pretty much fully subsidized to the point where the expense for the parents is minimal. It also involves parents working multiple jobs and making great sacrifices so their kids can have these experiences. You should see my rack....still using the gear I bought 20+ years ago. Just sprung for new harness last year as I was beginning to think mine was going to fail one of these days.

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:30am PT

Parents income is not an issue.

I guess you are correct . . . financial aid is readily available for those living slightly above and below the poverty line. Whatever bro, carry on with your warm and fuzzy world view.

Snowmassguy

Trad climber

Calirado

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:31am PT

Grumpymon^^^^

Kalimon

Trad climber

Ridgway, CO

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:35am PT

More pissed off than grumpy.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:41am PT

micronut...I think it's not good to paint the Calif. public education system w/ the same broad brush that you hope Californians won't use when looking at home schooling. Some kids do better in each model. There are good and bad educators in both places, and students who are better off in one or the other.

Sincerely,

A public educator who has a few great home-schooled students too...

Gunks Guy

Trad climber

Woodstock, NY

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:43am PT

If you are not homeschooling your kids, why would you even waste the effort to type out your opinion on this??? Does this somehow rate up there with the top social issues of the day? If so, I am truly curious as to why.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:16am PT

I think its a good conversation and I appreciate yall's views.

Melissa,
I do think California's school systems are heading in an ugly direction though. Despite some great teachers and some great districts doing really good things. It's a broad brushstroke but fully aware of the excellent exceptions out there. Thanks for your hard work.

Its like the medical system. I see where it's headed but I choose to practice medicine differently based on my ethic and my training, my worldview and my day to day experience. Like I said, I have a daughter who is a hardworking teacher in the public school system and she's doing a great job out there.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:17am PT

My siblings and I homeschooled when we were young and started public school in 4th grade and we're all perfect! Kidding, but it seemed like a good combo. We all entered school way ahead of our grade level, then made lots of friends right as we started getting weird.

I must say that homeschooling is not a rich people activity. My mom stayed at home, while my dad taught at a private high school making $19,000 per year (in the 80s/90s). All my homeschool friends were broke and our moms made our clothes, but it worked.

Also, the VAST majority of public school kids are super lazy. It's actually impressive. If you disagree, go teach at a few schools and you'll secede.

SUMMARY: It's all on the parents. i.e. I'm awesome (my parents are awesome), but one of my homeschool friends (strange parents) is in the hospital from eloping and trying to walk across the state barefooted on drugs with her husband.

skywalker

climber

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:59am PT

Hey if it works for you go for it. Lets not attack public education however. As a high school science teacher in a very high achieving school I have some classes where basics are taught (keeping a binder organized, planning things out, etc). I also teach A.P. classes for college credit.

What really counts is having great teachers with great parents. And the two can be combined as one and IS one way or the other. I've seen kids do great in a home schooled situation and have felt I was home schooling someone else's kid in others.

S...

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jan 26, 2013 - 02:46am PT

I think all parents ought to be involved in home-schooling, but not necessarily to the extent of keeping their children at home and away from school. The attitudes towards education, the respect for curiosity, the rewards of discovery, the work habits, the time-management skills, the tolerance for frustration, and the ability to work for long-term goals are things that, I think, you get from home. I think everyone involved in education wishes that all parents cared as much as those who choose to home-school.

I don't know much about the California schools, other than the fact that they used to be among the best in the nation and were degraded by "taxpayer" initiatives. But my own and my family's experiences make me wonder about the potential narrowing of perspective inherent in giving over the entire educational enterprise to one or two people, no matter how dedicated.

I may be biased, because I had wonderful teachers in high-school, people who not only undid the often dreary view of academics I had in elementary and middle school, but opened windows on the world of the intellect that I could never have imagined. My parents were loving and educated, but there is no way, had they decided on home-schooling, that they could ever have exposed me to what I encountered in high school. I imagine I would have turned out just fine, but, for example, I'm quite sure I wouldn't be a mathematician, because there is simply no way my parents could have shown me the wonders of that subject, which were simply beyond their knowledge and experience, even if they could have taught me the routines and algorithms necessary to do well on my SAT's. I could go on to write many paragraphs about formative experiences in high school that simply could not have happened at home.

Parents, at least most parents, want the very best for their children and are willing to go to great lengths and make considerable personal sacrifices to set their kids on a good path. I think the home-schooling instinct comes from this natural and admirable instinct. And as I've said, the involvement in parents in their children's education is in any case critical. But the variety and richness of the world of knowledge and experience is more than one or two people can possibly span, unless they are very exceptional indeed, and doors that are unseen can never be opened. Schools can do this. School do, in fact, do this all the time. Not for everyone, of course, but there is little reason to believe home-schooling works for everyone either.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jan 26, 2013 - 02:53am PT

This has been an illuminating discussion.

I admit to having come to the table with some prejudice against homeschooling. I suppose that comes from contact with people who'd gone through it in the distant past, and had significant life problems.

I'd not really thought about it, but the online revolution must have made incredible resources available, including the ability to organize among other like-minded.

I have thought that the unskippable issue is the parent/teacher. It can be hard to wear two hats. It can also be difficult to assess, when one is not a professional educator. But I think this has probably changed. I would still think it a struggle, if one were not college educated, but perhaps not.

I think GOOD options are a good thing.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jan 26, 2013 - 02:55am PT

I think all parents ought to be involved in home-schooling, but not necessarily to the extent of keeping their children at home and away from school.

I find that a bizarre notion.

sort of like going out for a nice dinner at a nice restaurant....as long as one does not leave home. Watch on TV, perhaps?

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jan 26, 2013 - 03:02am PT

Ken, I think you misunderstood me. I was perhaps a bit too obscure in trying to extend the concept of home-schooling to also mean parental involvement (which, by the way, can also go overboard...), but I like the idea that schooling can be something that occurs both in the home and the school, and that there are alternatives to the view that home-schooling and public-schooling represent an unbreachable dichotomy.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Jan 26, 2013 - 03:22am PT

As a single dad who works there was no way I could have home schooled. The idea had some appeal. On the other hand, my son was very introverted, still is, but school was great socialization for him. For the first three years I volunteered once a week for 4 hours in the classroom. The time I spent in the class was very inspirational. I think teaching the lower grades is one of the toughest jobs there is. We are lucky to have amazing schools and teachers here. A thanks to the voters who passed prop 30. On Monday my sons fourth grade class is going from 39 to 29 students, that is really make a big difference in the quality of education.

Ken M

Mountain climber

Los Angeles, Ca

Jan 26, 2013 - 03:38am PT

rg, perhaps I'm misunderstanding something.

When a child is home-schooled, is that not usually done by the parents? I've never encountered another model. (not talking about short-term illnesses, etc)

To hear you talk about the importance of involvement of the parents seems as strange to me as suggesting that it is also important for the student to be involved.......

Perhaps you are advocating that homeschooling must be involved with regular school. I'm not clear on that concept.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Jan 26, 2013 - 03:51am PT

Sorry Ken, it is clear that indeed you don't understand what I've said and then tried to clarify, and at the moment I'm out of ideas about how to say it any better. The only observation I can make is that some of the things you've said seem to be based on extracting fragments of what I wrote without attending to the entire context.

Or maybe I'm just incoherent on this subject, although I can assure you that I understand myself perfectly...

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Jan 26, 2013 - 09:49am PT

Rgold:

" but I like the idea that schooling can be something that occurs both in the home and the school, and that there are alternatives to the view that home-schooling and public-schooling represent an unbreachable dichotomy. "

I like that idea too.

Reality... most people need both parents working to afford the cost of living, so public school is the only option, but there's no reason home-schooling can't exist in tandem. I'm the only child of two LA Unified educators. I went to public school, but I can assure you they didn't leave my education solely to the system.

Edit to add: Oy- glad I don't have a kid and don't have to be making these decisions. The public system seems pretty f*#ked these days.

dirtbag

climber

Jan 26, 2013 - 10:28am PT

My opinion is skewed because of a small sample size, but the few I know who home shooled their kids were illiterate idiots with poor parenting skills.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Jan 26, 2013 - 10:38am PT

It is obvious that one size does not fit all children. No cragman, not all of us can home school. Implying that those of us that do not home school are slacking is insulting. On the flip side, those of us that support public education for all children are somehow less selfish and are doing more for society (I do not belive that). Donald's comments are expected, he always has to shoehorn every issue into his rigid ideologic box.

doughnutnational

Gym climber

its nice here in the spring

Jan 26, 2013 - 10:47am PT

Why is home schooling not for most people?

dirtbag

climber

Jan 26, 2013 - 10:51am PT

Well frankly, most people are idiots.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 10:59am PT

Donut,

It takes a full life commitment by both parents. I think that's probably the big reason. My wife is the most selfless woman I know. It's a lifestyle for the home that many aren't willing to do.

If you do it half way, the kids really suffer. You get either dummies or weirdos. Ok. That's kind of a joke. But I think it's not for everyone because of the sheer time and diligence it takes to do right. And both parents need to be on the same page.

But the perks sure are worth it for us.

mrtropy

Trad climber

Nor Cal

Jan 26, 2013 - 11:19am PT

"The public school system in this state exist first and foremost for the public employee unions and their bought and paid for politicians in Sacramento."

Donald Thompson-
As a teacher in a public school and with kids in public schools, I can tell you know nothing. You are just another right wing nut job. Your simple statements are laughable. You are perfect for Scientology and Fox News.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 11:45am PT

Dave,
I do have an overwhelming sense that this is the best thing for our family, but I hope it's not misconstrued as arrogance. A great public education is a wonderful asset to lots of kids. Thinking something is better does not always go hand in hand with arrogance.

But I do agree, many homeschool parents get that way.

So do private school teachers and parents.

The same goes with some charterschoolers, colleges....boulderers vs. trad climbers....alpinists vs. gym climbers. We can all get artogant if we're not careful.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 11:48am PT

Thanks for the testimony Limpingcrab.

But you DID turn out strange.

Limpingcrab likes long approaches, chossy first ascents and backcountry lichen fests. My children will climb directissimas, wide open slabs and clean splitters when they grow up.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jan 26, 2013 - 11:54am PT

In our state all home schooled kids must take and pass a state test PROVING that they are hitting the standards. No way around it. If you fail the test, boom, you have to pick another option and public school is the easy way that most take. Anyone who looks into it seriously soon realizes that home schooling is better.

Which doesn't mean I'd do it, just that it is better for the kids. Despite our involvement, our son was starting to fail, falling through the cracks back in 6th grade. It was one of the top ranked public schools in the city. We put him in a private school and the difference was like night and day. He did 2 years in it, and when he started back in the 2nd highest tested public high school he was so far ahead of everyone that it was both laughable, amazing and boring to the lad. Of course, being a lazy but straight A student helped his self esteem. Unfortunately, his amazing math abilities he'd developed in private school soon went to sh#t ... as might be expected.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:24pm PT

How would your homeschooling handle religion? Would you avoid the subject? Separation of church and homeschool?

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/01/22/is-atheism-a-religion/atheism-should-end-religion-not-replace-it

Would you teach the controversy? Would your home etudes include, for instance, the aforementioned piece by Penn Jillette?

Insofar as you couldn't cover these questions reasonably, you shouldn't homeschool. My take.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 12:42pm PT

Fructose,

We do a good bit of educating our kids, even from a young age, on world religions. And they get good literature from a broad range of writers. In History, for example, Sierra might read something by CS Lewis along side something from Sartre or Thoreau. Then she writes on them and has to hold the two in tension with eachother.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 26, 2013 - 12:46pm PT

Have your kids seen the full series of Cosmos, all 13 episodes, by Carl Sagan, in a systematic study?

That would be a strong "litmus test," I'd say.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:14pm PT

I was homeschooled, and I think I have a unique perspective because I was homeschooled until 1994, which might be one of the more recent tenures on Supertopo... haha....

My sister was borderline 'special needs' and would have been put into a system that would never have left her out. She now graduated from college and is a professional in her field, but seizures when she was young put her in a disability group she wouldn't have been able to leave.

+1 home schooling.

Now then there's me, the younger brother... who had to transition from a christian family homeschool to a poor area... in middle school, the worst age for public school. It took YEARS for me to socially catch up, and to be quite frank many aspects of who I am and my interactions with people are kinda funky even still. Not knowing you had to ASK PERMISSION to use the restroom, not knowing that there was such thing as "smear the queer," having no clue that kids would just beat the f*#k out of whoever wasn't cool... yeah that was a fun realization for a little kid. Luckily for me I got a growth spurt and learned how to fight so I at least coasted thru public school to be an extremely late bloomer.

Long story short - socially adapting them to the real world is tricky and if you haven't provided that as well as their education you are doing them a horrible disservice. My parents had no way of knowing and their bubble of a church was too busy making sure we knew the world was 10,000 years old and we made sure to tune out evolution.

If you are doing this for an idealogical reason, it is very likely one or more of your kids will resent the sh#t out of you for that once they figure out science. I would defer to the Catholic church, who has evolutionary biologists and physicists on staff researching the big bang. Science doesn't disprove religion and the other way around, don't confuse them.

I don't know what would have been right to do. For me maybe stay in home school my whole life. For my brother, he should have been in public school right away. Personalities are different. I agree that the educational system is F*#KED - but the idea that you have to learn how to interact with other people and know the full spectrum of human behavior... that is important. It is important to know that there are people out there who will f*#k with you, who want to hurt you and who will lie to you and use you to get ahead.

You should meet those people early.

p.s.

you seem like an amazing dad and I don't think at all you will make any mistakes in raising your kids, just letting you know my experiences. I would have been psyched to have been raised by a dude like you :) my parents were great too.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:21pm PT

No Fructose, they haven't. They're too busy sittin around in their jammies, eating sugar cereal, watchin rer-runs of Here Comes Honey Boo .

But Gabriel's doing a 1:100,000 scale of a lagging strand dna sequence in Legos and is prepared to defend his stance on Intelligent Design vs. Evolution to some college professors next week.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:24pm PT

GDavis,

Thanks for your story. I was hoping for that kind of dialogue here. As a parent I have lots to learn from a story like yours. Much appreciated as we maintain balance in raising our pups.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:29pm PT

Micro wrote,

No Fructose, they haven't.

For clarification sake: Is this (a) just because they haven't gotten around to it; or (b) because such a series (as seen, for instance, from a traditional Christian perspective) is inappropriate material?

.....

Gabriel's doing a 1:100,000 scale of a lagging strand rna sequence in Legos

Nice. Picture?

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:29pm PT

One thing I really cherished about my experience, since my mom was a microbiology major she would always take us to the wild animal park. She was an amazing teacher (I transitioned to public school a bit smarter than everyone, then after having to hide behind bathrooms instead of study that kinda tanked...) and we would borrow the school house there and 20 kids from our church would all pile into a few vans and we would learn about different animals and mammals and fur and what it did.... amazing stuff you would get maybe once in a lifetime of public school we did perhaps 20 times :D.

Education is kind of a big word and encorporates a lot of things, teach them California Geology and plate tectonics in the sierra and ecosystems in Josh, take them to planetariums and get a big telescope to the night sky. Teach them to drive in the snow, to balance a checkbook, to be nice to strangers and tip well, to write a good resume and understand that everyone has seen a completely different world with their eyes so we might have a different perspective but we don't have all the answers. Lots out there in the real world, its always better to learn there!

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 01:48pm PT

Fructose. To answer your question, no, not because it's "forbidden". Thats silly. You can probably tell that I'm a christian. But I was pre-med, a microbiology major and I completed a doctorate in bone physiology while doing my surgical residency. Plenty of great science in my background. I like Sagan's work but I have different religious views. I'd be stoked to show my kids his work. I just did a nice little discussion with my boys on Darwin's work and macro vs micro evolution. I'm all for educating my kids from all different angles, while keeping the renants of christianity intact and uncompromised.

GDavis

Social climber

SOL CAL

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:54pm PT

When I was their age I was more into cartoons : / probably woulda zoned out haha.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:54pm PT

no, not because they it's "forbidden". Thats silly.

Well that's a step up, nice. :)

Spanky

Social climber

boulder co

Jan 26, 2013 - 01:56pm PT

Although I disagree on some points in the original post I think the most important factor in a child's development and education is in fact parent involvement. This is obviously a huge factor when it comes to home schooling but it is just as important when a child attends a traditional school. As a pubic high school teacher I can honestly say that one of the biggest indicators on whether a child will succeed in school is whether the parents are involved in the childs education and do they view education as valuable and important. In my experience if the parent doesn't care and make it a priority than the child won't either. So from a home school perspective it provides the parent with a unique but extremely challenging opportunity to instill in their child a love of learning and to model what being a life-long learner looks like. There are always the challenges of resources and content knowledge of the parents, (lets be honest there aren't that many parents who are able to teach high level math and science like chemistry, physics, and calculus). The other main issue that has been eluded to earlier in the thread is that home schooling is a luxury that most families can't afford because a huge proportion of American children grow up in single parent homes. The real problem with the American educational system isn't in the schools, its a result of the breakdown of the family and poverty and these are problems that the school can't fix. If you look at middle and upper class school districts they test as well as anyone. The other issue is that rich school districts get more funding because of higher property taxes. The school district in Boulder contributes an additional $1000 per student while the poor district I teach in contributes $50 per student. Is it really a surprise that poor inner city schools are struggling when poor inner city communities are also struggling.

p.s if you're teaching your kids to defend intelligent design then you are definitely doing them a disservice. Intelligent design holds no scientific weight and the evidence supporting evolution is overwhelming. DNA structure/replication and RNA structure actually support natural selection instead of contradicting it. Natural selection and evolution is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory and that's what they will encounter in college. If thats the case it's hard to see how homeschooling isn't just a mechanism to make sure your kids see the world as the parent does and not able to make that call for themselves.

SCseagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz

Jan 26, 2013 - 02:01pm PT

But not every public school hits the mark in this state. In fact, I would say that high quality public schools are more the exception than the rule

Unfortunately I would need to agree with this....and I hate to say that because I am a retired public school administrator (Assistant superintendent in several districts and served 8 years on a local school board). And I disagree vehemently that it's the union, lazy teachers or "parents that don't care". California public schools are under the thumb of politicians who influence every curriculum mandate therefore Ca school curriculum becomes a cornucopia of what ever was in vogue that session.

Do we sometimes encounter lousy teachers and admin? Yes, just like we do in any profession, and like any profession they are NOT the norm. Just as "parents that don't care" are not the norm. And any educator or other parents that use that as a reason that the school system can't do an effective job is just scapegoating. Get politicians out of deciding curriculum and let the professional educators and local control be in charge of our schools and you would see dramatic differences in the under performing schools. Just because every politician went to school suddenly they feel they know how to run schools. Schools ARE NOT businesses and the lame thinking that if you just ran a school like HP orIBM or some other business model is just that, lame thinking.

Done, gonna go walk dogs.

Susan

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 02:19pm PT

Spanky,
Great points. For single parents, this is not an option sadly. Its a bummer for a kid to grow up with a single parent for so many reasons. My hats off to single parents worin hard and trying to do it right. However, my wife used to homeschool four boys whose parents didn't want to do it themselves. This is what piqued our interest originally on one level. There are options.
But I agree they are oftencost prohibitive for many.

Actually right now, my wife teaches German to three kids for free on the days she teaches our kids foreign language.

I disagree on your take on intelligent design. I just happen to think a loving and omniscient creator made the amazing biological system we see. No big deal.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Jan 26, 2013 - 02:29pm PT

To not consider the possibility that "intelligence" is a "force" for lack of a better term inherent in all the universe seems to be quite unscientific. That there is not any strong evidence for it is a reasonable argument.. but to completely dismiss the possibility is as bad as dismissing evolution or other well established facts.

Religious beliefs have little bearing on the ability to earn any degree. To excel in any field of science. In science one works with the task in front of them , the techniques necessary to answer specific questions. Ruling things in or out based on observation. Belief is not necessary nor does it particularly interfere.

The belief of the atheist or the devout is a problem for both if they use it as an excuse not to be capable of working well with either group of people.

I am quite sure Micro is given his children an amazing foundation which will serve them well in whatever endeavors they choose in life. Better than most get it seems. What more can you ask for in an "education"?

nah000

Mountain climber

canuckistan

Jan 26, 2013 - 04:39pm PT

Long story short - socially adapting them to the real world is tricky and if you haven't provided that as well as their education you are doing them a horrible disservice.

If you are doing this for an idealogical reason, it is very likely one or more of your kids will resent the sh#t out of you for that once they figure out science.

+1 RGold and GDavis

another perspective here: i started out being home schooled by a grandma who was a former teacher, spent elementary being educated in a religious one room school with an average of five other students [for most of those years i was the only kid in my grade], and then transferred to a central rural public school for 7-12. and no i'm not 75 - haha. for all intents and purposes the one room school was a religious home schooling.

from my experience, to see this as a black or a white proposition is impossible. there were major problems with public education - especially at a smaller public school. the most important issue being the one size fits all approach to a spectrum of individuals with varying motivations, abilities and interests. on the flip side moving from a tiny, insular, religious school to a more normative public school was a social train wreck for quite some time.

in retrospect, i don't know if there were any easy solutions in my case. i'm glad i didn't have to deal with the cookie cutter approach of a large school, for at least a few years. i was given more latitude to study at my own pace and gain confidence in my own ability to learn. those experiences have been invaluable.

on the other hand in jr. and sr. high school i had [a couple of] very influential teachers who significantly changed the course of my life. and probably more importantly, while it was painful to deal with a more normal social order, i'm glad i didn't wait until i was any older to have to learn some of the ins and outs of the human animal.

not sure if there is a take away point to this. but if i lean anywhere i lean towards the quotes at the top. i think that in general the exposure to teachers with varied specializations, passions and viewpoints is paramount. and i think that socialization is difficult if, as a child, you've only been exposed to other children who were home schooled.

i will say this: to successfully pull off home schooling requires individual children and parents that are rare. i wouldn't go so far as to say it can't be done. it's just an uphill road. a parent trying to do this has to replace a lot of infrastructure. and from a political, betterment of society as a whole, stance i have a hard time seeing how withdrawing from a flawed system is helpful in the long run.

to be blunt, saying a system is f*#ked and that the solution is to disengage often smells of arrogance and a deluded understanding of what a person is giving and taking from said system. i.e. the people who are best able to do this [home schooling takes a lot of financial and temporal resources to be handled properly] are often also the people most needed by a public system which is admittedly flawed and often hurting.

hmm.. i guess there is a point there after all.

Jon Beck

Trad climber

Oceanside

Jan 26, 2013 - 05:19pm PT

As a pubic high school teacher I can honestly say . . .

Spanky, not sure I want to know what course that is! :)

Parents can be very involved without home schooling. There is one thing parents can all do to jump start their child's education, READ TO THEM 20 minutes EVERY DAY. I did this starting before my son was a year old. It was our routine. We got books at the thrift stores for a quarter and read them over and over. Preschool had a rule, every parent had to read with their child for 15 minutes when they dropped them off. As a direct result of lots of reading my son is at least two grades advanced in reading and vocabulary.

Here is a link to a great story about a parent reading to their child, it really resonates with me. http://www.npr.org/2011/06/18/137223191/father-daughter-reading-streak-lasts-nearly-9-years

Not sure why I even read Donald's comments, I know it is killing my brain cells

Relic

Social climber

Vancouver, BC

Jan 26, 2013 - 05:49pm PT

Bek's doin' addition.
Gabriel (4th grade) is reading Conrad's Heart of Darkness.....not your normal Calif. reading level/list
Sierra is digging into the heavy writings of Martin Luther.

+1 for your kids. Wow, that is amazing Micronut!

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 06:11pm PT

It's raining off and on in Fresno today so I'm wasting a day playing in front of the computer. Haven't read the last few posts, probably won't from the look of things.

We gotta run. Swim meet today. Brrr.

Matt

Trad climber

it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!

Jan 26, 2013 - 06:35pm PT

I am not particularly for or against home schooling your kids, I think it's likely to be unique and cool and what a great chance to spend quality time with your kids in a world where that is unfortunately lacking in lots of families.

That said-
I also think it's a pretty small sample of Americans who would describe their kids' fellow students in school as "lusty".

Certainly there must be far more extreme cases of evangelical christian parents doing their home schooling thing and in doing so putting their kids in a bubble of sorts (until they are ready for southern bible colleges?), and certainly to some degree 'home schooling' itself is going to be lightly associated with evangelical christians, juts because home schooling is so common in that community, but we would all agree that one CAN home school their kids without keeping them in a bubble at all.

Again, when you describe other kids as "lusty", you do invite the comparison, but whatever, it's only what other people think (or wonder), so who cares anyway...

For me, I think if kids are lusty, all the better to have your kids around that so you can assist them as they learn to deal with it, socially.

Best of luck either way, on parent to another.
-Matt

hobo_dan

Social climber

Minnesota

Jan 26, 2013 - 06:47pm PT

This has become way way boring
I'm done with this

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 06:50pm PT

Matt,
When I say "lusty", I'm not talking about anything new. Its your typical Fast Times at Ridgemont High out there. Always has been. From Fast Times to Dazed and Confused to whatever movie kids are watching these days, teenagers haven't changed. They grow up in a hip hop culture now. The things that battle for their identities are sex, wealth, internet fame, aquiring stuff, image......it's lust. And its more pervasive than ever. And they'll desl with it.....after they have developed a strong sense if self. My teenager, however, IS being brought up different. She is genuinely a giving human. Genuinely into good music, healthy reading, healthy friendships and she does not crave all the filth of the world. Its not that we keep the world from them, its that we raise them with a clear view of who they are and what they should strive for. And for us, its coming toghether well. Our kids do look and act differently from the masses. And hopefully they are a light among thier friends and their community.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 26, 2013 - 06:54pm PT

Hey, I thought you were heading to the slopes.

Anyways, curious as to how you would teach your kids as a Christian about demons and such. If they asked you point blank if demons exists or if exorcism is a valid approach to mental or spiritual health, how would you handle it?

If your littlest one asked you, Dad, what is superstition? how would you answer. Curious if you'd have any examples. I've always found it interesting that Christian leadership goes out of its way it seems esp in the modern age to NOT talk about superstitions or demons. Let alone demonic possession.

Are you a believer in demonic possession? Just curious as it relates to this subject. Or have you personally moved beyond this traditional theological doctrine?

Along more earthly lines, as you know kids ask the strangest questions. If you were asked, Dad, what makes animals go, is it a spirit? how would you answer? Would you say you don't know. Would you say it results from their body's control system? their organs and tissues? their metabolism? Would you say they have an immaterial soul or spirit just like we humans and this spirit directs the body's flesh and bones?

As a college educated individual, you'd certainly answer these curious probing questions differently from the average Tom, Dick and Mary no doubt.

Off White

climber

Tenino, WA

Jan 26, 2013 - 07:05pm PT

I'm neither a booster nor a detractor, but I found it interesting that no one so far has mentioned how homeschooling in this country serves to reinforce traditional sex roles in a very 1950's kind of way that limits women's potential. Pretty much everyone posting is a guy in favor, but we haven't heard from any of the moms who are so happy to give up their professional lives and educations to homeschool their children.

Mr Thompson's rather rude blather aside, Dave Kos was pretty factual and non-partisan in stating that most homeschoolers approach the task from a religious conservative position. Its certainly true for at least 80% of the homeschoolers I've known, and I wonder if that plays a role in the silence about reinforced gender stereotypes, since most religious conservatives would just as soon the woman stayed at home, its where they belong anyway, right? So, being curious, I did a little research, and found this interesting article from 12 years ago: http://homeedmag.com/HEM/176/ndsexist.php It asks the question, and provides some background, but doesn't offer an answer.

I thought this secular homeschooling blog was interesting too: http://www.rebelhomeschool.com/

Personally, I think many homeschooled children benefit from the increased involvement and interest of their parents, which is also a marker for children who do well in public schools. I think the positive involvement is the essential bit, and there are any number of ways to do that.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2013 - 07:08pm PT

Ok. I really gotta run, but Fructose if you're serious I'll answer those questions later. Maybe tomorrow? If you'll stay in the conversation I'll take the time to answer.

Over and out. Have a good weekend all.

Scott

Off White

climber

Tenino, WA

Jan 26, 2013 - 07:13pm PT

Micronut, I think I understand what you mean when you say "lusty", which I interpret as just the pursuit of premature adulthood, which is often perceived or presented as precocious sexuality. I've always figured that we're old for a lot longer than we are young, and there's no need to encourage kids to grow up any faster than they have to.

We managed to do this without homeschooling, and our 21 year old daughter is a fine example, but I do sympathize with your concern. And hey, I'm as secular as the day is long, so you don't have to have a religious life to be concerned.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jan 26, 2013 - 07:14pm PT

QITNL, HaHaHa! Me too, only it was me mum so it was worse. But check this out -
when I got to 7th grade she started having me come in to her 4th grade
classes to do presentations on archaeology and paleontology!

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

mammoth lakes ca

Jan 26, 2013 - 08:24pm PT

Reilly...Then you started your own biker gang in Daytona Beach...

zBrown

Ice climber

chingadero de chula vista

Jan 26, 2013 - 08:30pm PT

Reilly ... then you started presenting on the SuperT ... 2432 photos worth the last time I checked

Spanky

Social climber

boulder co

Jan 27, 2013 - 01:15pm PT

Hey Micro,
I just wanted to clarify because after re-reading my post it may not have been clear. On the religion issue obviously you are free to believe whatever you want. My issue is that claiming intelligent design is science is an inaccurate portrayal of both science and religion. Intelligent design is not good science, its inductive versus deductive reasoning and its a vain attempt to use the scientific process to validate religious beliefs. Religion is by nature a matter of faith and regardless of the so called "evidence" you still have to choose to believe until Jesus decides to sit down with Oprah and tell all. On the other hand any good scientist will tell you that science can't address or answer questions about the supernatural. Religion can't answer questions of science and science can't answer questions of religion. This isn't to say that a scientist can't have faith but if they approach science with a desire to reinforce their faith then they are biased to begin with and their results are likely to be questionable. Intelligent design has a specific agenda they are trying to prove and based on almost just that fact alone their claims are scientifically questionable.

Dan

Bldrjac

Ice climber

Boulder

Jan 27, 2013 - 05:07pm PT

In our district (Boulder Valley) kids can be home schooled AND attend classes at public schools, and play on sports teams. As a Spanish teacher, I get home schooled kids from time to time, and I have to say, in all cases, they have been fine. Good kids, and don't seem behind at all socially or academically. I also think it's a huge committment to do it right, but then so is sending your kid to any kind of school...parental involvement should be a priority for, well, parents! :-)That is the bottom line, ultimately...........

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2013 - 07:30pm PT

Dan,

I disagree with you here. You wrote "but if they approach science with a desire to reinforce their faith then they are biased to begin with".

I approach science with the scientific method and a desire to take evidence and "see what's around the next bend."

I thoroghly enjoy steeping myself in the scientific world and still living a life committed to the Christian faith as a humble servant of the grace given to me each and every day. My thesis on fractal patterns in nature (specifically the bony trabecular pattern in the human mandible) was an in depth look at several disciplines in the field of science, from anatomy to microbiology to chemistry and physics. I had a lot of great mentors and advisors during the project, most of whom were areligious, but we still hashed out the science together as fellow scientists.

At the end of the day, they believed in happenstance and I believed in a creator who is interested in us.

Jingy

climber

Somewhere out there

Jan 27, 2013 - 08:20pm PT

…. you mean aside from its cult status? ...

sempervirens

climber

Jan 27, 2013 - 08:40pm PT

Good thread Micronut.
I myself am not religous. I don't see a reason why science and religion must be in conflict. Science hasn't answered the ultimate question; it doesn't directly address the ultimate question. Why not keep your ultimate beliefs and engage in scientific curiosity.

There are of course Christian Darwinists.

Also there is no need IMO for religion to oppose science and take the bible literally. In many cases the fundamentalists have other motives, money, politics, greed, control. Religion is all too effective at controlling society. Isn't that part of why religion is what it is. If God exists then religion has no reason to fear the loss of God. Perhaps there is a fear of losing control and wealth.

Whoops, supposed to be about education here. Sorry for the drift.

Anyway, good on you homeschoolers for doing all that work to ensure the kids turn out so well. That earns my respect.

Matt

Trad climber

it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!

Jan 27, 2013 - 09:11pm PT

I am not arguing the point, nor am I arguing that there are influences in public schools to be managed and mitigated. I am just saying that MOST people wouldn't choose that word (lusty) to describe other school children, and you did. Also, you home school your kids. Together, those two facts invite assumption, that's all I'm saying...

Cheers,
-Matt

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 27, 2013 - 09:15pm PT

Why can't you just save this stuff for church or pm Cragman and compare notes about your obviously gifted children?

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2013 - 09:17pm PT

Bruce,

Maybe I don't understand your angle. (and is there a typo in there? Did you mean you are not convinced the two are NOT incompatible?)

What might I need to "reject" in order to be a good scientist and a committed Christian? Believing in heaven and hell, the inherrent brokenness of man, and the need for a savior does not make a disulfide bond any stronger, betalactamase any less efficient of an enzyme...... nor does it make dark matter any less mysterious.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2013 - 09:43pm PT

Kenny,
My kids aint gifted. They're not even that good lookin. But they sure do have a lot of fun. You sound kinda jealous.

You sound like you need a hug.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:03pm PT

Standing your ground in antiquated theological doctrines is nothing to be proud of. Not if you're a militant Islamicist. Nor if you're a pick n choose "moderate" Christian.

One's traditional belief in heaven and hell or the work and love of the Holy Spirit or in a virgin birth may be beyond the purview of science (as is the Flying Spaghetti Monster) but it's certainly not beyond the purview of reason - and the value judgment of what's reasonable - esp after one takes into account everything the modern age knows about human functioning at large.

So-called "moderate" religious people are the shade under which fundamentalists take refuge. This should be something serious to mull over. In these times especially.

To pick a few: Exorcism is antiquated belief. A Virgin Birth is antiquated belief. The long-standing religious claim that there is a "ghost in the machine" is an antiquated claim. Remove these fundamentals from Christian dogma (not as myths or metaphors but as literals) and what's left? Not much. Certainly not much left to support intellectually.

A science edu leads to one model for how the world works. A traditional Abrahamic education whether Christian or Islamic leads to another. They're hardly compatible unless one holds them in two different categories of mind. To do that is now popularly called "cognitive dissonance." Why would anyone in the modern 21st century want to maintain such a state rather than grow beyond it.

If a 21st century homeschooler's kids are really smart, curious about how their world works, interested in having a science edu that's coherent long term, he or she - presumably interested in the highest edu standards the century provides - should be prepared to answer questions such at these and not shirk them.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

mammoth lakes ca

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:05pm PT

Cragman...You're going to get home schooled on the local ice so what are you doing here..? RJ

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:22pm PT

High Fructose: I've intensely studied the bible for most of my 27 years, and I'm almost done with grad school as an ecology and evolution major, and I can say that it all fits beautifully and leads to one place. But this belongs on another thread, or another website. And it's an argument I usually avoid because nobody wins, but I couldn't help it. Not many people are familiar with both sides.

oops, thread drift!

Homeschooling was great for my family, but it's not for everyone.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:30pm PT

You sound kinda jealous.

O.K.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:32pm PT

No, none of this is thread drift.

In this day and age esp, these issues or topics should be asked, they should come up at some point in the process or even many times. If not, I would question just how complete or thorough the home-schooling was.

Limpingcrab,

No.

No.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2013 - 10:45pm PT

Bruce,
I see what you're saying now that I re-read your post.

I'm typing on an iphone right now, this dialogue would be so much better in person. I'm kinda forumed out.

Limpincrab, thanks for your thoughtful contributions to the conversation. See you around the gym or Tollhouse or the high country this spring. Lets rope up soon.

I'll check in later. Fructose, thanks for your concern for my kids education and well being.

Over and out for the weekend,

Scott

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:45pm PT

-A dumbed down Calif. Curriculum

-A worldview shaped by lusty, lazy classmates

Sorry if I find statements like these insulting. Maybe If I lived in Fresno I would feel the same way. But I never would and I don't need a hug but thank's anyway

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:51pm PT

It's not just Fresno, Kenny.

In L.A., your kid has a better chance of not graduating than he does of getting a diploma.

In Compton, only three percent of the kids can pass a math test. Three percent! That means ninety-seven percent of Compton students can't even express what three percent means.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 27, 2013 - 11:01pm PT

In L.A., your kid has a better chance of not graduating than he does of getting a diploma

That's a problem. I don't know where you would even start in a city like Compton. where I live my wife volunteers three day's a week to help out the teachers and kid's we don't just bail out, homeschool our kids and then talk about how great they're doing. It would be nice if they could all do great.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jan 27, 2013 - 11:13pm PT

I would start with mandatory homeschool.

Shut the schools in Los Angeles down, and send the textbooks, instructional DVDs, etc. home with the kids and let the parents handle it.

Maybe people will think twice before spawning kids they are incapable of raising properly ( yes, education is just as important to raising a kid as food and shelter is ).

Or, do like they do at West Point. Your education there is on the house - IF you graduate. If a cadet flunks out of West Point, he is on the hook for the cost of trying to educate him. We should do that with high school students as well. THAT would light a fire under the asses of the parents to get their kids to school and to follow up on their assaignments.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 27, 2013 - 11:42pm PT

kennyt, if you cannot handle the answers someone gives that are VERY on topic,

Supertopo climbers forum, On topic would be, I just climbed with my new Totem cams and they are badass!! you should try some.

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 27, 2013 - 11:51pm PT

If the public school system sucks, is the answer to abandon the public school system?

That's what I'm seeing. Seems crazy were all paying into this system get involved and let's try and get are moneys worth.

What would happen if the home schooler parents / teachers dedicated their time and skills to the public school - with their kids in it?

great point.

skywalker

climber

Jan 27, 2013 - 11:59pm PT

That's what I'm seeing. Seems crazy were all paying into this system get involved and let's try and get are moneys worth.

How many grammatical errors do you see?

S?

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jan 28, 2013 - 12:00am PT

For some folks, "their moneys worth" is considered paid in full by the baby-sitting services the schools provide. They don't expect an education.

EDIT:

If I make any grammatical errors, please feel free to correct me. I'm always learning!

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 28, 2013 - 12:10am PT

How many grammatical errors do you see?

Maybe that's why I don't homeschool. Definately not because I'm afraid of the Boogieman. What's your point?

EDIT: Sh#t I've been out of school for 30 some years I just pay someone to write a letter for me when it matters You looking for a job? LOL

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 28, 2013 - 12:42am PT

If I make any grammatical errors, please feel free to correct me. I'm always learning!

No sh#t, I wish he would pop in a little more often and help me out. I'm a 48 year old gen. contractor do you think it's to late?

skywalker

climber

Jan 28, 2013 - 12:43am PT

Jeeze Kenny,

I meant no offense. I really mean it by saying sorry. My point was that what are we asking of our schools?

My dad always corrected me when I said "me and my friend" he said "no, My friend and I". I didn't do "good" I did "well". He was a teacher and he was very strong in correcting me. Now one can argue the origin of that particular way of speaking I just felt that, well, there was a leaning toward getting after teachers.

Public education is what it is and teachers are at the bottom.

Sorry for making you feel the way you did.

S

kennyt

climber

Woodfords,California

Jan 28, 2013 - 01:07am PT

No sweat.

Chaz

Trad climber

greater Boss Angeles area

Jan 28, 2013 - 01:10am PT

My sixth grade teacher, Mr Bodell, would correct us on the "me and Jeff" type screw-up by saying "Mean Jeff? I know Jeff. He isn't mean".

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 29, 2013 - 09:53pm PT

If you homeschool, I hope your home curriculum would reinforce the themes evinced in this outstanding letter to our President.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zack-kopplin/science-funding-obama_b_2545952.html

"To make this second giant leap possible, the culture surrounding science in America must change."

Those who follow the "public understanding of science" movement in the country - esp in the bible belt - will recognize Zack Kopplin as a rising star in the pro-evolution, pro-science efforts there.

Mr. President, please call for a SECOND giant leap for humanity.

.....

"...the purpose of education is not to validate ignorance, but to overcome it."

http://bigthink.com/ideas/49178

bookworm

Social climber

Falls Church, VA

Jan 30, 2013 - 06:50am PT

homeschooled children--as a whole--score higher on standardized tests, read above grade level, demonstrate stronger critical thinking skills (which are NOT part of standardized tests), and are emotionally more mature and respond better to criticism...what's not to love?

many communities are considering changing the rules to allow homeschooled kid to participate in school sports--the best argument is that homeschool parents pay the same taxes and their kids should be able to participate...there are issues to consider, and i do believe the states should develop statewide guidelines for the local districts--keep the feds out of it!

btw, homeschooled kids spend far less time actually doing school work...an average of 2.5 hours/day as opposed to 7-8 hours/day for public schools

homeschoolers in virginia actually started a private college (patrick henry college) that spanked harvard in a national debate competition in 2010

this from your friendly neighborhood public school teacher

ps: i think most people would be surprised to learn how many public school teachers send their kids to private schools...there can be no more significant criticism of our public education system

bookworm

Social climber

Falls Church, VA

Jan 30, 2013 - 12:53pm PT

well, kos, when i provide links and citations, i'm mocked for "cutting and pasting"...but, since you insist:

http://www.home-school.com/news/homeschool-vs-public-school.php

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/144135.aspx

http://school.familyeducation.com/home-schooling/educational-testing/41081.html

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0712/homeschool-or-public-school.aspx#axzz2JTwdprVg

http://www.pros-and-cons-of-homeschooling.com/homeschooling-vs-public-schools.html

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

Soulsurfer

Trad climber

San Diego, Ca

Jan 30, 2013 - 04:49pm PT

We have lots of different reasons why we home school. [photo[photoid=287204]id=287203]

What we enjoy is being able to take a week off and head out and go camping every month or so. We usually head to Joshua tree, red rocks, southern Az or Bishop area. The nice thing is we enjoy time together unplugged that would be hard to do if the kids went to public school. I do pretty well as a grid operator for the power company so one income is more than fine. But we do have many friends who have 1 vehicle and barely make it day to day and still home school.

Honestly I can't say my kids are the brightest or most well mannered. My hope for them is they will follow their passions and enjoy life and serve others. We have plenty of friends who have their children in public school and we love them dearly and they are great. For us this just works that's all. I'm not all that worried about kids from china out doing my kids either. They will find their place in life.

Peace

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 05:15pm PT

Nice stuff Soulsurfer. We're heading to JTree tomorrow for a full on family fun fest. Stay away from Indian Cove if you don't like kids! Its gonna be a dog and pony show. We have six ropes, 200 feet of webbing and 27 rock shoes. Shoes, not pairs. Somebody's always missing one.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 05:45pm PT

Dave,
That sounds super cool. I'd love more details. I actually don't know JTree too well. We've stayed at Ryan or Hidden Valley when staying as "climbers." This is our first time taking the whole junk show down. Me and Macronut are each bringing an RV, its gonna be a riot.

Where exactly is the creek you're talking about. I'll pull up a map of the park.

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 07:05pm PT

Thanks Dave!

Susan,

I just read upthread and noticed your question about accrediting. Yes, our family belongs to an accredited co-op, a sysytem in our "school" that files attendance and grades and updates with the state. We have a three strikes and you're out rule. Literally, if you do not get your grades and attendance in on the last friday of the month (or whenever it is), you can get booted from the school. We take it seriously because we are honest folks, but I'm sure it gets abused. We aren't the Ruby Ridge or Warren Jeffs type. It should also help when we get to college application time. Its good to keep it by the book.

Scott

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber

-A race of corn eaters

Jan 30, 2013 - 07:13pm PT

This is just not right.

You should definitely stay home and study, nose to the grindstone, everybody, each and every one - lest the Chinese get a leg up. The horror!

Soulsurfer

Trad climber

San Diego, Ca

Jan 30, 2013 - 07:25pm PT

Have fun in Joshua tree micronut. Looks like the weather should be at least ok this week. It was really nice in Anza Borreggo today so jtree should be similar. And Indian cove is supposed to be a little warmer than the main park so I think you'll have a great time.

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Jan 30, 2013 - 07:27pm PT

I should have added that my wife is a professional teacher. She taught public school for many years, and before we even married, we talked about homeschooling any kids we might have.

It only worked for us because we were fully committed. It takes an incredible amount of work to create a school environment, and discipline to stay on task....for both student AND teacher.

Amen, If parents care about their kids that much, I think they're likely to be fine or better.

Listening to a lot of wonderful friends, many have had rather sad (or worse) childhood and parents. Homeschooling isn't for everybody

Peace

Karl

micronut

Trad climber

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2013 - 07:35pm PT

See kids....The California Horney Toad (Phrynosoma (Anota) mcallii) is actually not a toad. And yes, they can spit blood out of their eyes! Cool eh? Any questions?

No?

O.k., schools over for the day...Who wants to go climbing!!!!!

Anastasia

climber

InLOVEwithAris.

Jan 30, 2013 - 07:47pm PT

I find homeschooling for the right kids absolutely wonderful. As long as the kids do get proper socialization and that they are of the spirit to be instructed by their parents. It's not for everybody. I know that I couldn't have been instructed by my own parents, one thing they were not the patient sort and... I wasn't an easy kid. Like I said it isn't for everyone, but when it works and they are given the proper materials... It's awesome.

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