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The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Jan 27, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
Jeez - I go get a coffee thinking this was chillin' out, and the sh#t just hits the fan!

Excellent!

Being a typical guy, I just love drama...


I can't believe LP called me an "old goat" - she is so insensitive, and I feel so degraded : (

Are you other "old goats" gonna defend me or are you guys just as insensitive?


SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jan 27, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
"WTF is the "male standard". Please give me some criteria"...


Start here!!!...

LOL!!!...

a song?!!! oh great. Might as well be on an 8-track.


FWIW, I fell in love with Joshua Ledet on American Idol last year singing that song. The only time I ever saw AI when I was channel surfing and saw him. Ohhhhhh

Susan
part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Women in combat now, or soon. Is it going to be the "male standard" against which they need to perform or a universal standard of what does it take to get the job done and the troops are safe?

male and universal standard are one and the same thing in our society.

it simply means a standard of how things should be done, a standard which defines excellence and performance. A standard which everything else is judged against. For example, take any sport in our society. This sport exists because it has been deemed as a "worthy pursuit" according to the male standard. Male standards means the dominant standard, a standard through which society leads its day to day happenings. The standard which is pioneered and led by men is generally viewed as "superior" because the male standard is in place when evaluating action, people, and events. Sexuality is understood according to the "dominant male standard" (usually something along the lines of gender differences and sex is natural and biological)

Women, as active participants of the work force and society at large, follow the male standard.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 27, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Warbler the battle was lost long ago ( at least 570 posts ago) we old goats can all commiserate with a round of ship dip.

Bartender let me buy this round a table.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:00pm PT
All I know is women being educated, entering fields that were once exclusive to men is still very new. For those unaware of history it might appear that we've done this forever. Yet in reality it's only been maybe two generations of women experiencing these freedoms. In my own case, I am the first woman in my Mom's family to go to college and leave her parents house without being married. Think on that. Plus in the field of surgery, it is still rare to find women performing and staying until retirement.

I am seriously giving it seven generations for things to balance out, society to really grasp the magnitude of it all. Until then, yes... The battle of the sexes will go on.

On a personal note... When a guy can keep female friends and treat them accordingly and morally correct, that is a sure sign that he might be able to see them beyond their physical uses. When he can't, refuses friendship because it "might" be too tempting, she isn't his physical type, whatever... That says a ton too.
part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
another example of male standard is to favor visual over the psychological. Another example of male standard is to favor logic over emotion.

hence some of the heated response where some of the guys get all worked up and go "its just boobs!!!!!"

well, its more than just boobs. The question of 1. what is important and 2. what are the definition of things and how are words used

those questions are usually addressed in the framework of the male standard (or male norms)
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
it simply means a standard of how things should be done

so open to interpretation...without some "specifics" of what does this male standard "look like" or some metrics it's all in the beholder's mind. If one wants to play the downtrodden "victim" to what they conjure up about unfairness, then so be it. Its a disingenuous argument with no science or verifiable metrics or standards behind it...just conjecture. There are real battles of discrimination to fight, not worth wasting time on the "soap box" of perceived inequalities.


Edit:
Ana, I understand what you say about the evolution of women into once male-dominated fields. My grandma was a suffargette. I was of the generation that burned our bras (which worked for at least several decades until we couldn't pass the pencil test anymore). The point I'm trying to make is then take "action", real action to speed up the process of eliminating discrimination where it really exists. Turning to soapboxes, arm chair ranting and ST forum is time ill spent. Oh geez, if I were younger I would dust off my SDS card (although I never built bombs or robbed banks). Alot of us are good at "spraying and praying" (that something will happen) then leaving the gunt work to someone else. Change requires action, not saliva.



Susan

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
I would guess that a :male standard" is to consider things through the viewpoint and experience of males.

One example could be, I think, how recently it was discovered that women and men actually have differing symptoms of heart attack. Until that discovery, the symptoms that men presented were "the standard"(despite plenty of women having had heart attacks which ought to have provided some insight there were variables). Women were going to their doctor with symptoms which didn't fit the "standard" and risked misdiagnosis of impending heart issues.

Or, that women being seen as having primarily a sexual identity, above that of a human one, in media, is the way to utilize female actors, models, spokespeople, etc., because that is the accepted way to sell more products. It is assumed that is what men want, due to media being dominated by men(it still is, by the way, though not by as overwhelming a majority as was the case a generation ago). It may BE the way to sell more product to men, and women may have become desensitized to the point that it goes unnoticed a lot of the time. But if you asked women how they would design an ad for, say floor cleaner, they probably wouldn't make one like this...

Credit: happiegrrrl

edit: Link to ad on website. http://www.coloribus.com/adsarchive/prints/handy-andy-floor-cleaner-reflection-2234605/

This image was found by searching "ads for floor cleaning products + images" on Google, and was the first image displayed, by the way. There was no use of a gender-related keyword in my search.

Of interest might be that the floor that is shown is in a public space. Quick - what does the janitor cleaning that floor look like to you?




Was it a man? Don't women also work in janitorial jobs? I've seen a lot of women doing such work at public spaces, and it might be assumed that some of those women are the ones in charge of deciding what cleaning products their company uses. Do you think that a woman is going to see an ad that gets the floor surface so shiny people can see under women's skirts and think "That's the product for my company!"

Even so, why does the advertiser not care that the ad is pretty offensive, from most woman's standpoints? It might be because of a "male standard" of thinking which tends to minimize the importance of the female customer. I don't know why else.


philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
Handy Andy. LOL



I am curious if any of you remember your high school biology classes?
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:15pm PT
"the standard"(despite plenty of women having had heart attacks which ought to have provided some insight there were variables). Women were going to their doctor with symptoms which didn't fit the "standard" and risked misdiagnosis of impending heart issues.

Happie, a really good real, identifiable, quantifiable example! That is when progress is made, when we can clearly and specifically define the problem and attack it and change it. Women not having the right to vote was another definable problem...clearly defined, articulated and the result was visible!
If we can't define the problem in specific terms then we all just add our opinion and points of view.

Why am I getting into this? I'm retired from political action, my life is content. I AM NOT dusting off my SDS card...spend too many nights in a cold and clammy clinker ... but I think we made some progress back then, we sure were noisy!

Edit: Happie I wonder if it was female docs or researchers that caught the differences? If it were a team of male docs and researchers what were they trying to rip off from us (LOL)

Another example from my wild days was working (tirelessly, but I was young) for Title IX equality in sports. Some of the younger women on this forum probably take that all for granted. Still lots of work to be done, but sure beats the fact that as a female basketball player I was only allowed to play on half court, and if I was guard I could only go half court on that already half court. And we were only allowed to dribble 3 times. Yes, we were a gentle lot.


Susan
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
Sorry... But that is dang funny!

Good point Happy...

I know... I know...
But I have to say it, to me they are just boobs. The part that I, the very person that started the Boob thread that obviously doesn't mind boob pictures... What shocked and angered me "specifically" were the verbal attacks and the underage pictures. Yes, People are allowed to disagree, but how that was done was "Seriously Wrong." Also the kid pictures... That's just plain SCARY Bad. I don't give a hoot if they are somehow of age, or are stated somewhere as being of age. All that can be falsified and the intend was to make them look like kids so it's useless. They looked like children and that's enough.

People need to clean up their act. Try it, might even improve one's life outside of the Taco.

Let me repeat this... I never, ever imagined people going this far. Again, I expected better. I am extremely sorry for the mess. Yes, a joke gone bad but wow... That was something else and way to far...


P.S. I am of the 80's generation that grew up with MTV, Playboy, and big hair. Women were highly objectified in my generation. Lots of equal rights speech but reality was a bit different. My mother's generations was the real thing. Mine... It's way different and yes... My generation is the plastic surgery generation. That says it all.

(In my head I can hear the song my class made as their theme song for our senior float... Here it goes... "She's my Cherry Pie...")




philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#249393
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:32pm PT
I don't recall the gender(s) of researchers who made that discovery, but believe the names of researchers was included in the media reports. So one might be able to easily find out.

One thing to mention is that the Obama campaign recently launched an interesting organization, "Organizing for Action" - link: http://www.barackobama.com/news/entry/welcome-to-organizing-for-action(I have not viewed the link, but wanted to provide some reference point).

This seems to me to have great potential for aiding individuals and grassroots organizations who seek to affect change(not necessarily gender-related, of course).

Could become a powerful aid in helping people bring change and get viewpoints heard beyond what we know often have(send a form letter to your congressman type thing).
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
Just to be clear, I don't approve of underage models either. Not having seen the pics though, I have no basis to form an opinion on them.
part-time communist

Mountain climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
A figure I respect a great deal is Catherine MacKinnon. I took a class on Feminism at UCLA and she was one of the figures we read. She hits the nail on the head the closest in my opinion and delves into the real issues such as power and male standards.

MacKinnon discussess the sameness/difference theory of sex equality, its dominance in shaping sex discrimination law and policy, and its flaws (discussed below). The sameness/difference theory is used to frame women’s rights under the law in terms of their sameness to men (e.g. deserving equal pay) or their difference from men (e.g. right of maternity leave).


(hence sex equality and how to make sense of the issue "woman" is framed within the backdrop of the MALE STANDARD)

and...

"Having power means, among other things, that when someone says, 'this is how it is,' it is taken as being that way. . . . Powerlessness means that when you say 'this is how it is,' it is not taken as being that way.-CMac
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 27, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
Geez, you wimmen already got the purse strings. Now you're gonna take over
the front lines. When the hell ya gonna be happy?
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Jan 27, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
Big Mike,

I don't view things in black and white. Even though I really hate bullies and there was a whole lot of bullying going on.. I also don't believe in burning those very people at the stake.

It's also not important for "everyone" to see what happened and take up arms in a mass agreement. No one needs a Parisian Mob to correct the situation. That would only make things worse and be even more mindless. What is important is for the people causing the drama to understand and make amends.

We are adults so we can learn, make an effort to correct past grievances, forgive and grow/move on. Plus no one here has to like each other, but despite this simple fact, we should all respect and be considerate.

The problem was the lack of respect and consideration. They know who they are... They have the power to make right. In the end it really is that simple and the rest of us should stay out of the way.

No one wins, but at least we can salvage a bit from this wreckage. That little bit that can be salvaged is important. I wonder if they will be brave enough to take it on and do the right thing. If not, well... An old Greek saying is that "we create our own hells, the devil simply watches."



moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 27, 2013 - 05:08pm PT
Talking about being oppressed. I felt powerless in the gymnasium when there were only 7 boys and 22 girls in our class, and at the university with more girls than boys. So many Boobs! They could do whatever they wanted with me. And it was wonderful! hehehe
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 27, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Is a trained professional Dip-Sh#t that much better than an amateur one?

Who cares? she has a rack that puts me into a mesmerized boobcoma.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Jan 27, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
I'm reminded of the photo that's popped up here before of the "man machine" with the on/off switch and the "woman machine" with 50 different gauges, dials, adjustment knobs and switches.
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