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The Warbler

the edge of America
Jan 26, 2013 - 10:27pm PT interesting it is that women get called upon to bear the burden of proof and to justify concretely their position and men just get to say, "It's our nature, get over it."

If a person, even a woman, accuses somebody of a crime, like distributing underage porn, she should bear the burden of proof to justify her charge. This is America - innocence 'til proven guilty, first amendment and all that.

Don't get me wrong - I personally have zero desire to look at partially naked women who look underage or especially those who are underage. I'm just defending the principles of freedom of speech, and the rule of law, and calling bullshit on whoever, male or female, imposes their morality on others coupled with unsupported libelous accusations of what amounts to criminal activity.

I get why women are angry about it, but morphing that anger into false accusations isn't the way to deal with it.

The thread's gone - your will has prevailed ...


right here, right now
Jan 26, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
Jim Brennan!
Route 66 and Diana Krall Trio.

Trad climber
Toshi's Station, picking up power converters.
Jan 26, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
Sorry, the vagina's all rolled up.

Jan 27, 2013 - 12:45am PT
"Sorry, the vagina's all rolled up. "

I have no witty rejoinder here Michelle.....I suspect that my mouth is dropped open and my brow is in a confused frown.

Considering it....

OK, all I got is that I would prefer not to see anyone start a new thread with pictures of this "Vagina roll up" trick you have. The discussion after the thread in question threads (I think there were 3 or 4 threads started complaining about it being taken down, posted on or put up) appears to be exhausting to all and the "discussing" *cough*argueing*cough* is heading to well over post 400 on this one and no let up. Thank you and BTW, The Warblers right.

I'd like us all to treat each other with more respect, regardless of sex or age, but this being the internet and all, won't happen in my life time.

Take care all.

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:54am PT


The Warbler

the edge of America
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:58am PT
I have no witty rejoinder here Michelle

I have about ten, but I don't wanna start a pussy riot, so I'll hold my tongue

And thanks for backin' me up, couchmaster

And I'm all about the Johnny Winter, LOCKER

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 27, 2013 - 01:07am PT


The Warbler

the edge of America
Jan 27, 2013 - 01:14am PT
Some girls roll it up

^^^Some roll it out^^^
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 27, 2013 - 01:31am PT
Wrong Riley but this is what young men think:

And this is what old men think:


Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Jan 27, 2013 - 02:01am PT
This is very serious.

the last bivy
Jan 27, 2013 - 02:27am PT
When confronted to prove the models were underage, LP balked. When confronted about her personal definition of porn vs the legal one, she balked again.
No balking here, you old goat!
been out having a great time not anywhere near a computer!
I'll get back to you about the history of legislation re child abuse when I have some time for you. You can start by researching the PROTECT Act. and it's reinstatement by the Supreme Court in 2008, and the various state statues that result from it, and the various attempts to use the first amendment to defend abusers in court. What has changed in CPS protocol in the last 10 years etc etc etc....
legal definitions of obscenity, pornography, child, molestation, etc etc etc
it's a hard subject to delve into.

we can have a long conversation about it ... but fer chrissakes don't you get the point YET?!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Jan 27, 2013 - 02:37am PT
If your point was based on the Boob thread and it's contents, the "youths" on display were legally exploited because they were of age and presumably gave consent. ( at least according to I Hate Plastic)

Through the prism of middle age the seemingly creepy pics did indeed seem creepy but only in context to the age of the subjects and the age of the viewers.

That's the issue and once again, prepubescent means before puberty, not during or immediately after. There were no pictures of children posted.

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Jan 27, 2013 - 02:41am PT
Lucky, it looks like you are upset.

But, are you SERIOUS?


Toadgas, it LOOKS like they are post puberty. SERIOUSLY.

Jan 27, 2013 - 10:14am PT

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:03am PT
I'll say it again:

Good lord, get out of Berkeley and the Gender Studies department once in a while.

See the world.

Trad climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:30am PT
And on it continues, with take-down attempts at minimizing, taunting and flagrant as#@&%e behavior of "You're making a serious discussion? Here -let me throw in a shot of chicks having (photo-simulated) sex, to keep the creeps rallied and interested."

Jim Brennen is polite and makes his points without resorting to cheap tactics, but I do find his claim of "no prepubescent" as interesting. I believe that puberty in females is defined as commencing with the onset of the first menstruation. How can anyone here "know" those girls in the images at question had passed this stage in life?

Someone had claimed earlier that they backtracked the images, and came to model release disclosure information on the site. They did not provide links to that information. I wonder whether such a link on a website featuring images of young-in-appearance subjects in sexualized scenes is any more that a simple "stamp of authority" put up in case someone comes across the images, questions the legality so that they see this disclaimer and go "Okay, all good to go."

Would it be possible for that person to post the link to that web page? That would be beneficial, in my view.

I would also be interested in seeing those images "in context" to the site from which they came, out of curiosity. Were those the least suggestive images from the site? Were they the "front" images for a gateway to something else? Just wondering.

On another point, Largo wrote:

earlier sentence touches on what I mentioned earlier - strong reactions usually denote a history of sorts, often untoward, so sensitivity is indicated. It's mostly about the involuntary associations that accrue to a person, place or thing which determines our views; and everyone's past is not a glorious sunset. That's why a seemingly benign thread about a body part can trigger a Gorilla Monsoon of guff and emotional arcing.

Originally I thought he was suggesting people might consider being sensitive to others, considering the possibility that these images were upsetting for a very ugly reason, and one which most men here would loudly rail against if asked their opinion on sexual abuse.

But now I wonder if he wasn't just saying "Those expressing discomfort/upset are more sensitive because they were abused."

If the former - it goes worth saying that it has been well documented that at least 1 in 4 women in the US has been manipulated or forced into sex by the time she was 18 years of age. Personally, I think it is more than one in four. I'm not really even 100% sure I have ever met a woman who hasn't experienced that(though I certainly don't want any women I know of to believe that I look at them and think "probably has been." It's just an awareness that came to my mind as I was typing just now).

I don't mean to suggest anyone ought to "disclose" their freedom from being sexually abused as a minor, but I am pretty sure, in all the discussions I have had over the years, that I have never had a woman say they had made it to 18 without being molested.

I've seem plenty get uncomfortable in being part of a discussion of the matter, others listen silently and express sympathy with a look of fear in their eyes, others who tell me they don't remember many years of their childhood, including one who cannot recall ANYTHING between the years of 10 to 14), which can be an indication of trauma.

At any rate - if you KNOW that at least SOME of the women in this forum have had that trauma, is it too much to ask to behave with a modicum of respect? At least stop the taunting, trivializing, and gang-mentality intimidation baloney.

If the latter - yes. For me, at least, body memories are a "sensitivity issue" I experience(I assume most here know, or do now, that I am one of the "1 in 4" women). It was not the images in that thread that triggered them in me, but a post made by one person, intended to taunt t*r, and the subsequent(though small) gang pile-on in support, and the intimidation/minimization tactics that have been deployed against people in the various related threads. It probably comes from having my 8 year old sister come to me, as a nine year old, seeking help; disclosing that she had been forced to perform fellatio on a grown man. When I declared the action we'd take - what to me was the obvious thing to do (go to our mother) - she told me that he had "explained" how her mother wouldn't understand, would be jealous of her and might hate her out of that jealously. At least so long as she was alive. Because the knowledge of "their secret" would break her mother's heart, and that her mother would die from that heartbreak.

And for those who would suggest I seek professional help, believe me when I tell you I have been through quite a bit of it and have made extraordinary progress. That I am here telling you this small fraction of my story is one testament to that. To tell me "seek help" is nice - but in some cases I know what is actually going on with that suggestion. The person is uncomfortable with a woman who won't shut her mouth when politely asked, or the person is feeling discomfort themselves - which is their business and not mine.

Thank you to those who have refrained from hurling at me some of the sh#t they seem to have no problem hurling at others. But I must remind you - those men and women are "my sisters and brothers" and I will not let you shut us up.


Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 27, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Ladies (and Gentlemen), we may not all agree on every fine point of this but I think it is vital we all continue to speak truth to power.


Social climber
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
Ladies and Gentlemen, we may not all agree on every fine point of this but I think it is vital we all continue to speak truth to power.

Knew that's what you meant. Fixed it for you, bvb. Wish the rest was as easy to fix.


Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Not as on point vis-a-vis the dysfuntional gender politics we are enduring here, but Neil Young is always apropos!

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 27, 2013 - 12:15pm PT

JUST general information:
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