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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"... teeters precariously close to becoming another environmental disaster...": Let's not jump to conclusions, either as to how close it is to sinking/capsizing, or if so whether that would cause an environmental disaster. It seems just as possible that it will be secured and towed to port, so proving the technology and skills for doing such things.
"...opportunistic oil industry...": On which we're all utterly dependent. There's no particular reason to trust that industry, but we all have dirty hands in relying on it.
"Arctic drilling is not a viable proposition.": Whatever happens won't prove or disprove that. If there is oil and gas exploration and expoitation in offshore environments, there is significant risk. The question is, what is acceptable risk? Also, would we rather that it be by companies that seem most competent and best equipped to do it, with reasonably effective regulation, or by others?
What's happening is certainly no advertisement for safe oil exploration and development in the Arctic, but neither is it the opposite, at least not yet.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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i'm liberal on some thing but conservative on others,, heck i'm vegan and i carry a gun more times than not...but spinning things for ones agenda just destroys credibility.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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How is the crude getting from near Barrow to market?
Barrow is not close to TAPS.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Tobia i would agree with you but for the fact that hundreds of offshore Alaskan wells have been drilled over the previous 45 years without major incident. These wells stretch from the Cook Inlet in the south to the northermost coast in the Beaufort Sea also including the Chukchi Sea that all the contention is about. The rig itself, if it cant be freed, will be cut up and hauled off for scrap without any significant enviromental damage as long as the fuels are not released.
edit, Berg a new 400 mile pipeline would be constructed across the National Petroleum Preseve to the TAPS.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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cuz the gubbment just bailed out OUR auto makers..
And rightly so.
Now OUR auto makers need to get their sh#t together and create more futuristic/ economical vehicles.
My wife is very happy with her Ford Fusion Hybrid. Electric/gas
So you bought one from the one company that refused to participate in the looting of the bond holders and still makes decent vehicles.
good on ya.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Is NPRA useless? Must not hold as much promise as Shell and others would rather drill offshore than in a large region of onshore land that is actually reserved for petroleum production.
I'm with the guys in the oil biz. This is a drill rig that got caught in some nasty weather, not a whole lot more. Drill rigs get moved around all the time and drill wells for exploration and production.
This incident is just like the media glomming onto some spectacular search and rescue mission on Mt. Hood or Ranier while every other day where climbing as usual takes place, they don't give a $hit.
400 miles of new pipeline? I'm moving to Fairbanks.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Berg with construction of a new 400 mile pipeline you would see much more exploration in NPRA because production would be economic due to proximity of the new pipeline.Success brings more success.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Tobias. Don't bitch about drilling for oil. Bitch about how much we waste as a country. Trust me, there is a lot of room for bitching there.
Go to the EIA homepage and read up.
Funny. The offshore Chukchi and offshore Beaufort leases and permits sailed right through the Obama administration and you didn't hear a peep.
There was some drilling in the offshore Beaufort in the seventies. There were some discoveries, but too small to hook up. Beyond 3 miles offshore it is federal waters. This includes drilling three miles offshore ANWR, which I am fanatically opposed to...because I have spent three summers in ANWR hiking around in alone.
So there are some permits just offshore of ANWR that are going to see rigs next year or the year after.
Most of you probably don't even know where the Chukchi Sea is, but it is north of the Seward Peninsula on the NW coast of Alaska, and the drilling is way north of the Bering Sea. We haven't even tried to produce anything offshore in the arctic.
That said, when the offshore Chukchi went up for leasing auction during the Bush administration, Shell paid hundreds of billions of dollars for some tracts. They already had a good idea of where the prospects were from 3D seismic data. They must look damn good, because they are going to drill.
You haven't heard a peep. Obama and Salazar let those permits sail right through and made it past the usual greenpeace lawsuits and hassles.
The USGS estimate for the offshore Chukchi is much larger than ANWR reserves. ANWR was just a wild swing by the state of Alaska to keep the oil flowing through the pipeline, because Alaska has no other means of support other than taxing the living sh#t out of the industry up there. I'm not sure if they managed to nab some of the royalties from the offshore. It rightfully goes into the treasury.
If they make a discovery, they will have to install production platforms and some sort of transport terminal. The area is ice covered most of the year, with a short drilling season late in the summer. They started last summer but where held up with technical problems.
Me? I make no judgements.
You don't like it? Look in the mirror. It ain't oil companies, it is the gullet of the American consumer. We are 5% of the world's population and consume 25% of the world's production. That is enough to make me sick.
Almost everyone is a total dipshit with this problem. You know why they are drilling up there? Because oil prices have now gone through the roof and it looks like they may stay there forever. The only question is if China or the U.S. goes into another recession, which will temporarily decrease consumption, decreasing demand, and decreasing oil prices.
Who is the villain here? Shell?
Who is the villain here? You and me?
I say it is the latter. Oil prices are set on an open world market. I get world market prices in Kansas, or Texas, or Oklahoma, or anywhere. It isn't some gang of oil companies controlling the price of oil. The only ones who control enough supply to come close to controlling price anymore is the Saudi's, and that is debateable.
We gotta stop burning stuff for fuel. We have already trashed the atmosphere, and it won't recover for a million years. I'm getting on a plane in the morning to D.C., and flight is the least efficient form of travel period.
At least I find enough oil and gas to keep all of you driving and warm at night.
Seriously. THINK ABOUT THIS PROBLEM AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
Don't be another idiot who just bitches and moans. Look at alternatives and find ways to make them economically competitive. If the U.S. switches entirely to alternative non-carbon fuels, then we won't be economically competitive against countries who do burn fossil fuels.
So we keep doing it. When crap goes wrong we bitch at the oil companies.
It is like a heroin addict bitching at his dope dealer because his dope dealer likes to run over dogs. You don't like him running over dogs, but you can look the other way when you visit him to buy dope.
These are very serious questions. It is THE question we face today. Getting your panties in a wad because a rig runs aground and calling it an oil spill, when in reality it is the same as a container ship running aground and losing its fuel (neither are TANKERS, ya know).
So we shouldn't be knee jerk idiots. We need to understand what is going on here, all the way from the coal mine to the electricity running your computer.
Sorry. It just makes me ill when I see how ignorant people are, and how stupidly they point fingers at the oil companies.
Next time you fill up your car, squirt a cup onto your head. Hell, do it every time you fill up. Then you might start thinking about how huge and complicated this very simple problem actually is.
Sorry. I'm sure you are nice and all. I've just grown very jaded over the hydrocarbon man problem. I know a lot more about it just because this is what I do for a living.
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WBraun
climber
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Bitch about how much we waste as a country.
Yes
We are number one wasters of America ......
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
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there have been successful wells drilled without trouble, no argument there.
i know the oil industry too, i worked in it for a while. boatin' and flyin' around rigs in the gulf witnessing the ugly side of drill ships, platforms, pipelines, leaking well heads and seismic vessels. the non-accidental or intentional spills (dumping) were enough for me to know there is a general lack of regard for the environment by the oil companies and their extended family.
and that was in the relatively calm waters of the gulf of mexico, where who knows what damage has been done; both long and short-term.
i can see derricks popping up in tuolumne now; 'cause you can trust the man who wears the star or chevron or shell...
and yes, i put fuel in my truck; but i don't get in it unless i have to. i avoid driving.
and if you look at what i wrote earlier i said money should be invested in alternatives for all oil usage; but i am not an engineer or an inventor. as energy goes i'm strictly a consumer. i do as much as i can to be energy efficient.
so base, are you getting angry because you work for an oil company or oil related business?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sorry. It just makes me ill when I see how ignorant people are, and how stupidly they point fingers at the oil companies.
Who else you gonna point fingers at?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Quickly,
The Chukchi is way offshore but the waters are shallow.
This is a huge technical nightmare because of the ice. The ice in that ocean is the thin water ice, and has none of the big bergs that shed off of Greenland and NE Canada.
This is all new technology. Even if Shell can drill without a problem, which I think they can (no huge problems), they will have to produce for 20 or 30 years.
To give you an idea of the transportation problem, it is hundreds of miles west of the Alaska Pipeline. So that is probably not an option.
Ice covers all the way south of the Chukchi, over the Bering Sea, and up close to the aleutians in the winter. In the summer there will still be broken ice where they are drilling. I've seen those little bergs and they are small and they have engineered around that problem.
So. How to get it out? Run a pipeline to the coast and then pick it up at a shipping terminal?
There is a monster lead Zinc mine up there called Red Dog. They produce 365 days a year under a gigantic cover, truck it about fifty or 75 miles to the coast on the only road in the NW Arctic, and during the summer furiously ship it out when the ice finally opens up.
One problem with a pipeline is ice scour. During the winter, the icepack moves around and bulldozes the sh#t out of the seabed in shallow water. I dunno how they are gonna do it.
We could get on Google for a couple of hours and find out the plan.
I've been watching this unfold for ten years. Decades, really. That basin has always looked good, but not much was known.
People need to also understand that oil isn't everywhere like in the Beverly hillbillies.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Z-Brown, point the finger at yourself.
Tobias, I don't trust anyone. Trust is like faith. You just go along with no evidence. Can you tell me why there will not be oil wells in Yosemite? From a geology perspective?
You and Z-Brown are two good examples of what I see and hear every day. It makes me want to bitch slap the whole country. I pull my hair out over this.
For goodness sake, use less. You won't make much of a difference, so I assign 10 people for you to convince, and they each take ten, and so on. When people understand the problem, insane consumption, then people won't blame somebody else for their own behaviour.
We need to use less. In a perfect world, use zero.
Get it?
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WBraun
climber
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One should always point finger at the original problem.
Ones self.
We've created the world.
We reincarnated life after life to suffer our previous stupid mistakes .....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Base, thanks for your comments. I always read them. I worked at Prudhoe
and Kuparuk for Arco. Companies do tend to acquire a 'personality' which
may be more a matter of perception than reality. Shell wasn't even up there
when I worked there so I don't know 'them'. But I can tell you that most of
the people I worked with up there, even the Texans, did give more than a hoot
about the environment. Most guys took a lot of pride in their work and
it showed. Those places were pristine. Hell, in the summer they even hired
college kids to drive around and pick up the few bits of paper or whatever
that accumulated over the winter.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Base being in the industry you are obviously very well informed.I liked the "reality of your diatribe. However there are a few points i feel i must correct. There has been sporadic ongoing drilling in the near offshore Beaufort since the 70's and in fact production off of manmade gravel islands today.Shell paid 2.1 billion for its leases in the Chukchi and Conoco Phillips, Statoil and others paid another .5 billion.There were wells drilled by Shell (without incident) in the Chukchi in the late 80's to early 90's albeit without the benefit of the modern seismics they now have.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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tobia,i will totally agree ,its about not drilling.subsidize,promote,and just get behind alternatives. no matter how much we use. to hammer on this premise,and fully completely get off burning any petrol. base,with total respect,you sound like big oil.i know its your gig,but this is what happens to any one in my neck for saying simular .we have become quite the exporter of fossil fuels,and yet prices have never gone down. its time,to change,buffalo biodiesel,is what i am running.ithaca has a biodiesel co-op.ny is the #3 aggracultural producing state,these fuels are gaining traction and they dont get a penny from the gov for any production.so come on ,tell me ,as most did ,it will never work,it cant keep with demand,i dont want to pay for any of this. sounds just like big oil,drill baby drill
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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base, you must think i am an idiot; maybe that is my fault. however you must learn to read, interpret (and recognize sarcasm when you see it).
i am not a geologist; so forgive my lack of proper nomenclature. on the other hand i did do work in seismic research in the gulf, so i have a general understanding of oil exploration and i can read (and have done so).
just to humor you, wells won't be drilled in places where time and circumstance hasn't allowed for organic matter to percolate and become trapped in folds or traps beneath the surface. why drill if it isn't there?
sorry if zb and i make you pull your hair out, please don't let us bring you down.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Your OP makes this sound like it is some sort of exploration and production spill. That is not the case. The rig won't get within 500 miles of its location until next summer.
I'm in a hurry, so I will have to be brief:
ANWR: Way overhyped. Trust me. BS from the state of Alaska. The geology looks like crap.
Chukchi: Looks like it could be huge, but the first well will provide a ton of info regarding thermal maturity, etc. There are some huge subsurface structures, If they are loaded with oil, it will be much larger than ANWR.
OK Tobias, solve this:
Burning anything produces carbon. This is going to cause climate change which will alter the demographics of the globe. We have a good example during the Jurassic/Cretaceous hothouse caused by a huge period of vulcanism, and our CO2 increase is already halfway to the point it was then. And we are still going.
So burning any type of burnable fuel, be it coal, wood, biofuels, ethanol, cow pies, oil, is going to trash the planet. The science is pretty good on that and we have two very good examples of CO2 caused climate events in the geologic past.
So if you burn a drop you are hurting the planet. You may pat yourself on the head for using a hybrid or whatever, but everything around you was built with, transported by, and maintained with fossil fuels.
Alternative energy sources are there, but very difficult to achieve for a world approaching a population of 10 billion people.
If a country uses more expensive fuels, it will get economically crushed by another country who does.
OK. You figure it out. I'm too busy to go into it more, and I'm sure I left out a few other tough hurdles.
Basically I am saying that when you fill up your tank you are directly participating in the Hydrocarbon Man society. A person in Bangledesh uses something like 1/2 bbl/year. An American uses something like 60 bbl/year.
So whose fault is it? Is it the society which is utterly dependent on this nasty stuff but yet won't kick the habit at fault? Is it the oil companies, who explore for and produce this stuff at fault? Damn. Whose fault is it?
I say it is our entire species, and since we are so tribal with many different nations, we are incapable of making an altruistic decision.
What? Get the population down to 2 billion or so? We can't even agree on providing the opportunity of birth control pills..in one country.
What? Do away with CARS?
It goes on and on, but it is actually pretty simple. We are wastefully burning through the last of our natural resources (we still have a lot of coal, though). We have occupied nearly every arable acre on the planet. We are on a path to suicide, basically.
So the house is burning down and you are blaming it on wood.
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