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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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i second your e-notion, tobia.
i vote with the party who insists upon fuel alternatives;
i exercise my monetary clout by purchasing hybrid rigs;
i parent my children with an emphasis upon environmental appreciation and preservation.
...despite, we're so f*#ked as a species.
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Grampa
climber
from SoCal
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Everyone wants cheap gas but nobody wants to drill or mine for oil.
Instead of bitching about it, why don't you genetically engineer a tree that grows oil, and plant it next to your tree that grows money.
Opps, my bad, genetic engineering is wrong also.
Sell your vehicle and buy a horse.
Opps, my bad again. Horses produce methane and spoil the roads.
How about walking? Helps your health and keeps those Chinese child laborers employed for slave wages making your walking shoes.
*()#k13c!!!!
Sorry, first day back to work after the Holidays.....
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Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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What about high mileage plug-in hybrids, hybrids, electric cars,
vehicles that run off biofuels etc.
Cars in Europe pollute less and get much better mileage than
those in America. Why don't we have access to those vehicles?????
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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cuz the gubbment just bailed out OUR auto makers..
And rightly so.
Now OUR auto makers need to get their sh#t together and create more futuristic/ economical vehicles.
My wife is very happy with her Ford Fusion Hybrid. Electric/gas
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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So good to hear that your employed productively(?) Grampa!
Why not take a second job and send me back to grad school for another degree in genetic engineering. I accept paypal in large amounts.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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I like Grampa haha.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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What a lie.
This rig isn't drilling. It is being moved. Rigs get moved all over the world. It doesn't have any crude oil on it, just fuel like any other ship.
If it sinks, it will be like a sinking ship, although it is an extremely expensive bit of machinery.
Dude. You are totally full of sh#t. Drilling rigs drill the hole and then move to the next well. That is what a drilling rig does. It drills the well and then moves on to the next one. Over and over and over.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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stop with the facts base104!
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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i second your e-notion, tobia.
i vote with the party who insists upon fuel alternatives;
i exercise my monetary clout by purchasing hybrid rigs;
i parent my children with an emphasis upon environmental appreciation and preservation.
...despite, we're so f*#ked as a species.
does your family follow a vegan diet?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I can't win.
I'm a liberal.
I'm a raging environmentalist.
I know the oil industry from A to Z.
I try to tell the truth rather than cut and paste stuff out of context.
Seriously. There are a couple of posts above that I could take and stuff it up their asses with endless amounts of real world plain old data.
So I hate it. You get nowhere by lying. From here on out, the OP is suspect to me.
The risk from this thing is the same as a sinking ship. Even the Steve Irwin will leave a nice oil slick if those ass-boil Japanese Whalers ever sink it.
My advice? Before starting a new thread, take a breath, either know or learn just a little about what you are talking about, and then post.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sounds like those dRigs are stuck in a rut. Did Sisyphus ever stop? I can't remember.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Unfortunate accidents or gross negligence have dogged the expansion of the oil industry in Alaska for decades with the result being more dependency on foreign oil and easy ammunition to arm the radical enviromentalist cause.Consider; 1) In 1989 just before the best ever chance of opening ANWR to oil development (which would have provided many billions of barrels of crude which might well have lessened the rational for later war in the middle east) the Exxon Valdez runs aground on Bligh Reef releasing the largest spill in american history to this point. ANWR off the table. 2)In 2010, Shell oil with all permits in hand and its fleet mobilizing to tap into a probable 20 billion barrel field in the Chukchi Sea off the NW Alaskan coast, BP's Deep Water Horizon Blows up killing many workers and releasing a new american record oil spill. The result being a moratorium on all american offshore drilling. 3)On the last day of 2012 Shells Kullik oil drilling platform runs aground off Kodiak Island in an Alaskan typhoon while being moved to winter harbor.The result being-they had better prey that none of the 120,000 gallons of diesel fuel or tens of thousands of gallons of lubricants and othe fluids are released or they will likely see a five billion dollar investment go down the drain along with the wreckage of the platform.
It seems with the singular exception of Prudhoe Bay the only luck big oil development in Alaska has had is bad luck.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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B104 pretty much nails it. If the thing had been in the process of drilling a well, and got detached without the various emergency systems kicking in to minimize leakage, that's one thing. Not what happened, at all. Even if it sinks, the spillage would be small potatoes relative to other spills - although those responsible will still get flogged for it by some, and it'll be cited as 'proof' of things that it isn't proof of at all.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
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base,
the 146,000 gallons of fuel and lubricants on the drill ship aren't the big picture . It's the fact that accidents happen and drilling in this volatile and fragile climate zone isn't worth the risk.
the Kulluk is just a finger pointing to the picture of what can and more than likely will happen if they drill in the Arctic Sea.
it can't sink; as it is already aground.
and what's more it isn't being moved now, it was and into an environment it doesn't belong.
and where is the lie? i see a rub; but no lie.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"... teeters precariously close to becoming another environmental disaster...": Let's not jump to conclusions, either as to how close it is to sinking/capsizing, or if so whether that would cause an environmental disaster. It seems just as possible that it will be secured and towed to port, so proving the technology and skills for doing such things.
"...opportunistic oil industry...": On which we're all utterly dependent. There's no particular reason to trust that industry, but we all have dirty hands in relying on it.
"Arctic drilling is not a viable proposition.": Whatever happens won't prove or disprove that. If there is oil and gas exploration and expoitation in offshore environments, there is significant risk. The question is, what is acceptable risk? Also, would we rather that it be by companies that seem most competent and best equipped to do it, with reasonably effective regulation, or by others?
What's happening is certainly no advertisement for safe oil exploration and development in the Arctic, but neither is it the opposite, at least not yet.
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prickle
Gym climber
globe,az
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i'm liberal on some thing but conservative on others,, heck i'm vegan and i carry a gun more times than not...but spinning things for ones agenda just destroys credibility.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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How is the crude getting from near Barrow to market?
Barrow is not close to TAPS.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Tobia i would agree with you but for the fact that hundreds of offshore Alaskan wells have been drilled over the previous 45 years without major incident. These wells stretch from the Cook Inlet in the south to the northermost coast in the Beaufort Sea also including the Chukchi Sea that all the contention is about. The rig itself, if it cant be freed, will be cut up and hauled off for scrap without any significant enviromental damage as long as the fuels are not released.
edit, Berg a new 400 mile pipeline would be constructed across the National Petroleum Preseve to the TAPS.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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cuz the gubbment just bailed out OUR auto makers..
And rightly so.
Now OUR auto makers need to get their sh#t together and create more futuristic/ economical vehicles.
My wife is very happy with her Ford Fusion Hybrid. Electric/gas
So you bought one from the one company that refused to participate in the looting of the bond holders and still makes decent vehicles.
good on ya.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
California
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Is NPRA useless? Must not hold as much promise as Shell and others would rather drill offshore than in a large region of onshore land that is actually reserved for petroleum production.
I'm with the guys in the oil biz. This is a drill rig that got caught in some nasty weather, not a whole lot more. Drill rigs get moved around all the time and drill wells for exploration and production.
This incident is just like the media glomming onto some spectacular search and rescue mission on Mt. Hood or Ranier while every other day where climbing as usual takes place, they don't give a $hit.
400 miles of new pipeline? I'm moving to Fairbanks.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Berg with construction of a new 400 mile pipeline you would see much more exploration in NPRA because production would be economic due to proximity of the new pipeline.Success brings more success.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Tobias. Don't bitch about drilling for oil. Bitch about how much we waste as a country. Trust me, there is a lot of room for bitching there.
Go to the EIA homepage and read up.
Funny. The offshore Chukchi and offshore Beaufort leases and permits sailed right through the Obama administration and you didn't hear a peep.
There was some drilling in the offshore Beaufort in the seventies. There were some discoveries, but too small to hook up. Beyond 3 miles offshore it is federal waters. This includes drilling three miles offshore ANWR, which I am fanatically opposed to...because I have spent three summers in ANWR hiking around in alone.
So there are some permits just offshore of ANWR that are going to see rigs next year or the year after.
Most of you probably don't even know where the Chukchi Sea is, but it is north of the Seward Peninsula on the NW coast of Alaska, and the drilling is way north of the Bering Sea. We haven't even tried to produce anything offshore in the arctic.
That said, when the offshore Chukchi went up for leasing auction during the Bush administration, Shell paid hundreds of billions of dollars for some tracts. They already had a good idea of where the prospects were from 3D seismic data. They must look damn good, because they are going to drill.
You haven't heard a peep. Obama and Salazar let those permits sail right through and made it past the usual greenpeace lawsuits and hassles.
The USGS estimate for the offshore Chukchi is much larger than ANWR reserves. ANWR was just a wild swing by the state of Alaska to keep the oil flowing through the pipeline, because Alaska has no other means of support other than taxing the living sh#t out of the industry up there. I'm not sure if they managed to nab some of the royalties from the offshore. It rightfully goes into the treasury.
If they make a discovery, they will have to install production platforms and some sort of transport terminal. The area is ice covered most of the year, with a short drilling season late in the summer. They started last summer but where held up with technical problems.
Me? I make no judgements.
You don't like it? Look in the mirror. It ain't oil companies, it is the gullet of the American consumer. We are 5% of the world's population and consume 25% of the world's production. That is enough to make me sick.
Almost everyone is a total dipshit with this problem. You know why they are drilling up there? Because oil prices have now gone through the roof and it looks like they may stay there forever. The only question is if China or the U.S. goes into another recession, which will temporarily decrease consumption, decreasing demand, and decreasing oil prices.
Who is the villain here? Shell?
Who is the villain here? You and me?
I say it is the latter. Oil prices are set on an open world market. I get world market prices in Kansas, or Texas, or Oklahoma, or anywhere. It isn't some gang of oil companies controlling the price of oil. The only ones who control enough supply to come close to controlling price anymore is the Saudi's, and that is debateable.
We gotta stop burning stuff for fuel. We have already trashed the atmosphere, and it won't recover for a million years. I'm getting on a plane in the morning to D.C., and flight is the least efficient form of travel period.
At least I find enough oil and gas to keep all of you driving and warm at night.
Seriously. THINK ABOUT THIS PROBLEM AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.
Don't be another idiot who just bitches and moans. Look at alternatives and find ways to make them economically competitive. If the U.S. switches entirely to alternative non-carbon fuels, then we won't be economically competitive against countries who do burn fossil fuels.
So we keep doing it. When crap goes wrong we bitch at the oil companies.
It is like a heroin addict bitching at his dope dealer because his dope dealer likes to run over dogs. You don't like him running over dogs, but you can look the other way when you visit him to buy dope.
These are very serious questions. It is THE question we face today. Getting your panties in a wad because a rig runs aground and calling it an oil spill, when in reality it is the same as a container ship running aground and losing its fuel (neither are TANKERS, ya know).
So we shouldn't be knee jerk idiots. We need to understand what is going on here, all the way from the coal mine to the electricity running your computer.
Sorry. It just makes me ill when I see how ignorant people are, and how stupidly they point fingers at the oil companies.
Next time you fill up your car, squirt a cup onto your head. Hell, do it every time you fill up. Then you might start thinking about how huge and complicated this very simple problem actually is.
Sorry. I'm sure you are nice and all. I've just grown very jaded over the hydrocarbon man problem. I know a lot more about it just because this is what I do for a living.
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WBraun
climber
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Bitch about how much we waste as a country.
Yes
We are number one wasters of America ......
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
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there have been successful wells drilled without trouble, no argument there.
i know the oil industry too, i worked in it for a while. boatin' and flyin' around rigs in the gulf witnessing the ugly side of drill ships, platforms, pipelines, leaking well heads and seismic vessels. the non-accidental or intentional spills (dumping) were enough for me to know there is a general lack of regard for the environment by the oil companies and their extended family.
and that was in the relatively calm waters of the gulf of mexico, where who knows what damage has been done; both long and short-term.
i can see derricks popping up in tuolumne now; 'cause you can trust the man who wears the star or chevron or shell...
and yes, i put fuel in my truck; but i don't get in it unless i have to. i avoid driving.
and if you look at what i wrote earlier i said money should be invested in alternatives for all oil usage; but i am not an engineer or an inventor. as energy goes i'm strictly a consumer. i do as much as i can to be energy efficient.
so base, are you getting angry because you work for an oil company or oil related business?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Sorry. It just makes me ill when I see how ignorant people are, and how stupidly they point fingers at the oil companies.
Who else you gonna point fingers at?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Quickly,
The Chukchi is way offshore but the waters are shallow.
This is a huge technical nightmare because of the ice. The ice in that ocean is the thin water ice, and has none of the big bergs that shed off of Greenland and NE Canada.
This is all new technology. Even if Shell can drill without a problem, which I think they can (no huge problems), they will have to produce for 20 or 30 years.
To give you an idea of the transportation problem, it is hundreds of miles west of the Alaska Pipeline. So that is probably not an option.
Ice covers all the way south of the Chukchi, over the Bering Sea, and up close to the aleutians in the winter. In the summer there will still be broken ice where they are drilling. I've seen those little bergs and they are small and they have engineered around that problem.
So. How to get it out? Run a pipeline to the coast and then pick it up at a shipping terminal?
There is a monster lead Zinc mine up there called Red Dog. They produce 365 days a year under a gigantic cover, truck it about fifty or 75 miles to the coast on the only road in the NW Arctic, and during the summer furiously ship it out when the ice finally opens up.
One problem with a pipeline is ice scour. During the winter, the icepack moves around and bulldozes the sh#t out of the seabed in shallow water. I dunno how they are gonna do it.
We could get on Google for a couple of hours and find out the plan.
I've been watching this unfold for ten years. Decades, really. That basin has always looked good, but not much was known.
People need to also understand that oil isn't everywhere like in the Beverly hillbillies.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Z-Brown, point the finger at yourself.
Tobias, I don't trust anyone. Trust is like faith. You just go along with no evidence. Can you tell me why there will not be oil wells in Yosemite? From a geology perspective?
You and Z-Brown are two good examples of what I see and hear every day. It makes me want to bitch slap the whole country. I pull my hair out over this.
For goodness sake, use less. You won't make much of a difference, so I assign 10 people for you to convince, and they each take ten, and so on. When people understand the problem, insane consumption, then people won't blame somebody else for their own behaviour.
We need to use less. In a perfect world, use zero.
Get it?
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WBraun
climber
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One should always point finger at the original problem.
Ones self.
We've created the world.
We reincarnated life after life to suffer our previous stupid mistakes .....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Base, thanks for your comments. I always read them. I worked at Prudhoe
and Kuparuk for Arco. Companies do tend to acquire a 'personality' which
may be more a matter of perception than reality. Shell wasn't even up there
when I worked there so I don't know 'them'. But I can tell you that most of
the people I worked with up there, even the Texans, did give more than a hoot
about the environment. Most guys took a lot of pride in their work and
it showed. Those places were pristine. Hell, in the summer they even hired
college kids to drive around and pick up the few bits of paper or whatever
that accumulated over the winter.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Base being in the industry you are obviously very well informed.I liked the "reality of your diatribe. However there are a few points i feel i must correct. There has been sporadic ongoing drilling in the near offshore Beaufort since the 70's and in fact production off of manmade gravel islands today.Shell paid 2.1 billion for its leases in the Chukchi and Conoco Phillips, Statoil and others paid another .5 billion.There were wells drilled by Shell (without incident) in the Chukchi in the late 80's to early 90's albeit without the benefit of the modern seismics they now have.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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tobia,i will totally agree ,its about not drilling.subsidize,promote,and just get behind alternatives. no matter how much we use. to hammer on this premise,and fully completely get off burning any petrol. base,with total respect,you sound like big oil.i know its your gig,but this is what happens to any one in my neck for saying simular .we have become quite the exporter of fossil fuels,and yet prices have never gone down. its time,to change,buffalo biodiesel,is what i am running.ithaca has a biodiesel co-op.ny is the #3 aggracultural producing state,these fuels are gaining traction and they dont get a penny from the gov for any production.so come on ,tell me ,as most did ,it will never work,it cant keep with demand,i dont want to pay for any of this. sounds just like big oil,drill baby drill
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
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base, you must think i am an idiot; maybe that is my fault. however you must learn to read, interpret (and recognize sarcasm when you see it).
i am not a geologist; so forgive my lack of proper nomenclature. on the other hand i did do work in seismic research in the gulf, so i have a general understanding of oil exploration and i can read (and have done so).
just to humor you, wells won't be drilled in places where time and circumstance hasn't allowed for organic matter to percolate and become trapped in folds or traps beneath the surface. why drill if it isn't there?
sorry if zb and i make you pull your hair out, please don't let us bring you down.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Your OP makes this sound like it is some sort of exploration and production spill. That is not the case. The rig won't get within 500 miles of its location until next summer.
I'm in a hurry, so I will have to be brief:
ANWR: Way overhyped. Trust me. BS from the state of Alaska. The geology looks like crap.
Chukchi: Looks like it could be huge, but the first well will provide a ton of info regarding thermal maturity, etc. There are some huge subsurface structures, If they are loaded with oil, it will be much larger than ANWR.
OK Tobias, solve this:
Burning anything produces carbon. This is going to cause climate change which will alter the demographics of the globe. We have a good example during the Jurassic/Cretaceous hothouse caused by a huge period of vulcanism, and our CO2 increase is already halfway to the point it was then. And we are still going.
So burning any type of burnable fuel, be it coal, wood, biofuels, ethanol, cow pies, oil, is going to trash the planet. The science is pretty good on that and we have two very good examples of CO2 caused climate events in the geologic past.
So if you burn a drop you are hurting the planet. You may pat yourself on the head for using a hybrid or whatever, but everything around you was built with, transported by, and maintained with fossil fuels.
Alternative energy sources are there, but very difficult to achieve for a world approaching a population of 10 billion people.
If a country uses more expensive fuels, it will get economically crushed by another country who does.
OK. You figure it out. I'm too busy to go into it more, and I'm sure I left out a few other tough hurdles.
Basically I am saying that when you fill up your tank you are directly participating in the Hydrocarbon Man society. A person in Bangledesh uses something like 1/2 bbl/year. An American uses something like 60 bbl/year.
So whose fault is it? Is it the society which is utterly dependent on this nasty stuff but yet won't kick the habit at fault? Is it the oil companies, who explore for and produce this stuff at fault? Damn. Whose fault is it?
I say it is our entire species, and since we are so tribal with many different nations, we are incapable of making an altruistic decision.
What? Get the population down to 2 billion or so? We can't even agree on providing the opportunity of birth control pills..in one country.
What? Do away with CARS?
It goes on and on, but it is actually pretty simple. We are wastefully burning through the last of our natural resources (we still have a lot of coal, though). We have occupied nearly every arable acre on the planet. We are on a path to suicide, basically.
So the house is burning down and you are blaming it on wood.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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i just dont know,you talk of who to trust,i asked base on the gw thread on his views of fracking,the chemicals?.....4 long posts later ,i was retaught some geology,and was told i should have been billed for it.nice laugh aye?....still no truth of chems....so tobia,good luck.no apologies,total greeneck.....and see there you go burning biofuels IS CARBON NEUTRAL!.would any oil guy let you in on that.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Above: Computing power wasn't around thirty years ago to provide the info from 3D seismic that we get today. What they do know is the quality of the source rocks and their thermal maturity. Only a few wells is a very small sample for such a huge area.
Tobias, I don't mean to single you out, and I'm sure you aren't stupid. That is not my point.
I posted some stuff on the other thread about the Bakken, and the hype over that. Yes, it is good, but we use so much oil that it is a small percentage of our consumption.
The Gulf of Mexico, if you have ever visited a beach that doesn't get picked up...like Padre Island, is covered with crap from production platforms. They treat is like a garbage can.
The real point that I want to make is what is stated above. I've been watching this go on for thirty years.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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b-104
Well just for starters, let's point some fingers at BP. Let us hear your rationalization of BP's behaviour in just one example, the Gulf.
Last time I checked I didn't pour oil all over Gulf of Mexico, so for the time being I'll not point any fingers at myself.
BP Plc (BP/) and the lead lawyers representing victims of the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill won approval of the economic and environmental loss portion of a proposed $7.8 billion partial settlement of claims.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-22/bp-gulf-oil-spill-judge-approves-7-8-billion-settlement.html
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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And no. I am not in favor of drilling in the arctic. If the world was my domain, and I were king of the planet, I would use hydrocarbons for materials only. I would close every mine on the planet and recycle. Our landfills probably have an economic amount of metals to turn them into mines.
I would also put the world on birth control pills for a couple of generations to get our population down to a reasonable carrying capacity.
It is just like a cattle rancher grazing his cattle. Too many cows on such and such pasture causes overgrazing, loss of topsoil, and you ruin your land. Now picture us as cows. Economics is the ranchers.
We are not an us vs. them world. It is just us, and we are trampling our home.
BP? They were so stupid on that blowout. It should have never happened. The well was drilled and they were temporarily plugging the well. Instead of keeping the wellbore full of heavy drilling mud, they displaced it with much lighter saltwater and blew out. I have never seen a well get plugged with anything but heavy drilling mud and multiple cement plugs.
BP was utterly negligent, but that is part of business if you put a spigot into your car.
Seriously. I want to frame this discussion so broadly that there is no place to point other than at ourselves as a species.
All most people do is bitch about three dollar gas. The problems are so enourmous and systemic that very few people even consider these problems as a whole.
Basically, I think that we are screwed. If you want to do something good for the environment, commit suicide.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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or maybe promote alternative energy ,your kids, kids will be glad you didnt off yourself.just maybe.
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dipper
climber
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May I enjoy a few more breasts before I off myself base104?
btw, thanks for sharing your insights into the oil industry.
You could host a killer podcast and share your views to a wider audience and open a few more eyes.
Though your industry may not like that a whole lot.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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And no. I am not in favor of drilling in the arctic. If the world was my domain, and I were king of the planet, I would use hydrocarbons for materials only. !!!
I would close every mine on the planet and recycle. Our landfills probably have an economic amount of metals to turn them into mines.
!!!!!!
I would also put the world on birth control pills for a couple of generations to get our population down to a reasonable carrying capacity.
!!!!!!!!!!!!
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Look Base, obviously you are a geologist or petroleum engineer etc., so you are well aware that if we managed to exterminate ourselves through overgrazing of this little planet there would be no more trace of us, in a small amount of time relative to geological ages, than all the other dominant species that preceded us.I think your idea of more use of contraceptives has considerable merit. Hell why stop there, why dont we just move right onto post partum abortions beginning with the most vocal advocates of birth control and rabid enviromentalists -its the least they could do for the planet by putting there lives where there mouths seem to lead.Getting back to 2 billion people on this planet would not be a manageable feat without returning to a new dark age.
Alternative energy- what a load of crap. The primary thing that elevates us above third world status to the very top of the economic heap is the technological solutions we have pioneered to more efficiently extract and use more hydrocarbons than any other nation.If we dont do this, the Chinese and others will and without anywhere near the enviromental safeguards we employ.Someday other sources of energy,to rival or exceed the economics of fossil fuels, will be developed-just not in the very near future.
People, apparently we are the first species to develop on this planet with the ability to step ouside of ourselves and examine our place in the universe and then reorder the natural world around us on a global scale. It would be shame if we turned inwards in fear and self destructed before we used these abilities and propogated our species to other worlds.We have a clear choice;realize our destiny and expand outwards with neccessary conservation or retreat inwards like 7 billion chicken littles forever expecting the skies to fall.
Let's not make to big a deal out of this ship wreckage. The oil companies are good enough at shooting themselves in the foot without our help.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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It seems with the singular exception of Prudhoe Bay the only luck big oil development in Alaska has had is bad luck.
F*&^% big oil development. Time to move to the next level.
F*&^% TGT too.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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All which requires a wholesale rejection of any EIn Rantian laissez faire capitalism nonsense perpetuated by those whose altruism gene stopped evolving back in the stone age.
Jan figures this has to happen within fifty years so better get started!
The discussion on the other thread as to whether humans are evolving toward being more co-operative seems relevant.
It's doubtful that we have anything like as much as 50 years. The fact that few leaders of developing countries around the world pay more than lip service to their countries' problems being at least part rooted in overpopulation, high birth rates, etc etc speaks for itself.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yep, Yep, and OMG! A Republican from an alternate universe!
Rick, your poor understanding of logic lead you to make a monstrous non sequitur where you leaped from our fecundity all the way to abortions. That is why I don't like talking to Republicans. They will either go all More Souls For Jesus on ya, or find some other way of hijacking a simple idea: Our population growth is going to be impossible to support pretty soon.
With a liberal, I have a better chance of finding one who studied in biology class. Hell, plenty of Republicans took science classes. They just found it convenient to disregard science entirely as adults.
So I will hang with my bros. They understand basic math.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Alternative energy - what a load of crap.
Sigh...
That must be why the Chinese are trying to buy U.S. wind farms and are all over alternative energy in China - nothing to it.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2013 - 08:29am PT
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And no. I am not in favor of drilling in the arctic.
Base, we've been dancing around the campfire to the same tune; but with no rhythm.
That was the entire point of my OP. Drilling in the Arctic is not a good idea; it is too risky from an ecological point of view.
I used the Kulluk as an example; that no matter what the engineers state about contingency plans there is no guarantee that an ecological disaster won't happen. The Arctic Sea is in enough trouble as it is.
The Kulluk grounding was only one of recent problems Shell encountered in its attempts to drill in this area. Mishaps occurred because of equipment failure, the unpredictability of mother nature.
If towing a drill ship can't be done safely in these seas, what does that say about the more difficult tasks of the drilling process?
Hopefully my efforts to clarify my reasoning and premise are obvious now.
Yet I will say 160,000 gallons or 3800 barrels of fuel and lubricants would be a horrible occurrence and a disaster to the coast of Sitkalidak Island and one that would not happen if drilling weren't allowed in this area.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Tobia,i am w/you on this. That fuel spill would be bad,but its the cost of dba.Theres the rub,we subsidize this,all the money we have given big oil over the years ,we should own every company by now. I know ,tell me about national security,energy independece,yada, yada ,yada.drill baby drill.And don't forget to throw every progressive idea of alternative energy under the bus.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dude, could you do us all a favor and figure out how punctuation, capitalization, and your keyboard works as otherwise that's the last post of yours I'm ever going to read.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sorry man.I was in a huff.I made it to calc 3 in college ,but failed basic college writing. By the way,healyje,that is a great link about china.thank you.
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xkyczar
Trad climber
denver
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I worked offshore ANWAR in the late 80s on an exploratory well. I know we didn't see much. Beautiful place though. A couple of times we had a big ice pressure ridge move in. We would leave the drill pipe hanging in the hole while work boats towed the rig around the ridge creating a couple of days of nice down time on the rig.
Also got caught in a storm on another rig being towed from the Bearing Sea to Everett, Washington. For a bit it looked like we were headed for Hawaii (though I sure the beaches in Hawaii are no match for the docks of Everett).
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Base, I'm beginning to think you are a USGS scientist, obviously with a liberal bent. You have your predetermined model results and your logic will always be circular in reinforcing your beliefs. I may be wrong in my characterization of you, but no more wrong than your characterization of me as a religious nut republican. I'm neither.As far as my logic or lack thereof; i merely used your own words but brought your stated enviromental positions/remedies to there real desired conclusion without your sugar coated b.s By all means hang with your bros and dazzle yourselves with the breadth and depth of your understanding of natural world , humanity and our unsustainable course, but please spare the rest of us your presentation of "absolutes" because your presentation of "the facts" is rife with little errors.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Tell me specifically the subsidies given to oil and gas exploration and production companies. Then list the amounts.
Seriously. This is so overblown.
Farmers get paid to NOT grow crops. Actual checks from the dept. of the Treasury.
Oil companies pay a gross production rate that varies from 7% to 12.5% of the GROSS. This is a unique tax for oil production, and is taken straight out of the checks from the purchasers who buy the oil that a well makes. You don't even see that.
So tell me. Name the subsidies for oil companies.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Rick. Wrong. I work in the E & P industry.
Go ahead and point out the errors. I make them sometimes. Sometimes I haven't looked up the most current information and it doesn't bug me a bit to straighten me out.
This is nothing. Go argue with Largo over the nature of reality for two years and it gets pretty intense.
Tell me how oil and gas traps. This simplest type of trap. Go ahead and hit wiki, I don't mind.
I consider myself a liberal right now, although I am so fiscally conservative that Reagan and W made me furious with their tax cuts and spending binges. Some of the hard liberals are brain dead, but the Republican Party has become a race to be the least informed. It is all slogans, weazle words, yada yada. They break every logical test in the book. I'm talking Fox News and the radioheads. I have a terrific Republican Senator and an old crooked Republican Senator.
My friends call me a liberal leaning libertarian. What I am not is a Republican drone, in the modern sense of the word.
I've been doing this since 1987. I just finished up a horizontal well, and am working with the engineers on the frac design. It will be a small frack compared to the shales.
Before that, I finished up a year working over in the New Ventures Division of Chesapeake Energy as a contract consultant. I know a lot about an area that was new to them. I'd worked it for years.
Right now I am sitting in a hotel in Laurel, Maryland, right next to Ft. Meade and the NSA. I tell ya, the area around here is full of contractors. Northrop had a huge facility with a bunch of big satellite dishes up the road. They had their own exit on the interstate for authorized vehicles only. It is safe to say that the surveillance arm of government is now in bed with all of these contractors. I've been reading a great book called, "The Shadow Factory" by James Banford. This is his third book on the NSA and he is the most knowledgeable. So being here is pretty cool. I just flew in and am headed to Virginia to buy my ship (a sailboat) on Chesapeake Bay.
It isn't a big amount of money. Used sailboats can be really cheap.
Sorry to digress, but it is pretty cool.
Back to the point. I discuss population control and you jump to abortion. I never said a word about abortion. The only people I know who go nuts on abortion are the religious and the right wing.
If you want my reputation as a straight shooter, go ask some people on the other threads. I'm not the smartest person in the world, so I stay within my boundaries. I don't think I am stupid, though.
I've never run into you here. Have fun. Bitch about me all you want, but point out the errors, please. That way we can both learn.
I could have some fun typing in key words to bug them.
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geo_nutt
Trad climber
the big bang
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So while I can't speak for nobody but myself all I can say is that I am and have strongly been in the oil biz for a while, because of it I am a "1%'er". That said I consider myself strongly left leaning, I don't own a car, I take public transport, I ride my bike, I walk and most importantly I give back to my community by donating my time and money to causes that have meaning to me.
Yes I am analogist to a dealer but I exist only because you the greedy US consumer exist and my bank account thanks you!
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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More drilling in the artic and new pipelines. Not one good thing in there that is good for that pristine environment. Better solution would be to double or triple the insulation in every house and smaller cars and send the oil subsidies to companies working on sustainable energy sources. Conservation is the answer with no to very little risk. The artic drilling is a gold rush and gold rushes are always environmental disasters.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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double the price of gas, and spend all the extra revenue giving everyone in the US a free new bicycle. Oh, and make the streets bike friendly. Now pass me that pipe....
(by the way, is that youtube scene from Goodwill Hunting (way up-thread) really from the movie? I don't remember it. But fun....)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"centralized economy" would simply make private cars illegal. This is using good old conservative market forces to change behavior. I hate bike haters and naysayers. lol
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Base,I can only be as specific as this http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/
Now if we added up even the low end ,minus say 25%,over say 30 years,with inflation, devaluation, figured.
So,overblown,aye? Obama gets slammed for his commitment to green subsides which add up to what? Hardly anything comparatively.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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You are right farmers get paid not to grow crops,but around here they are growing a certain corn,and property values are exploding because of it.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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doesn't seem to be leaking oil, so probably still has water tight integrity
standard salvage practice is to inspect the hull interior, let the storm swell subside, pump out the fuel either to shore or a barge, tow it off at the next high tide
if USCG is convinced of the tanks integrity and on-board emergency pump capacity, they may not require pumping out the fuel first
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If you say "Sitkalidak" quickly five times, it starts to sound like "psychedelic".
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Well Base, i stand corrected as apparently you are a highly educated working man rather than the government welfare program scientist i was beginning to imagine.I've been on a plane all day so was unable to answer till i got to my second home thirty miles out of Reno.
I admire hard working self made people whether they identify themselves as liberal, conservative, libertarian or whatever.The point is they are actually building, producing, or helping to create the new technologies that will make for a better future for all.These type of people are getting to be more of a minority in this day and age. There are way too many others just taking up space, consuming, and bitching about the inequities of the system that they have attached themselves to for a free ride.
I wasn't going on a religious right rant about abortion. Rather, i was agreeing with you (cynically of course) about the best thing the complainers could due for the planet is commit suicide. A self inflicted post-partum (meaning anytime after birth) abortion =suicide.
Good luck to you on your sailboat search and may the wind always fill your sails.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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The supposed problem with comparing European Rail travel with U.S. is the difference in land mass to cross and population distribution.
In GA they have a proposed high speed rail system from various regions centering on Atlanta. There is a lot of resistance; in the meantime proposals for more road widening projects and new roads keeps being approved.
I wonder why that is?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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http://news.yahoo.com/shell-oil-drilling-under-tow-again-running-aground-142211561.html
A Shell oil-drilling ship that ran aground near a remote Alaska island is under tow again.
The Unified Command for the operation in Anchorage says the Kulluk is being towed at about 5 mph to shelter in Kodiak Island's Kiliuda Bay. Officials won't estimate its arrival because of weather conditions early Monday — winds of about 18 mph and 15-foot ocean swells.
There's a salvage crew of 10 people on board and one Royal Dutch Shell representative.
The Kulluk was refloated late Sunday from rocks. There's no sign of any oil discharge from the vessel. It was being towed to Seattle for maintenance when it ran aground in a powerful storm on New Year's Eve.
That's making really good speed for those sea conditions.
ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — A Shell oil-drilling ship that ran aground near a remote Alaska island was under tow again early Monday, officials said.
The Kulluk was being towed at about 5 mph to shelter in Kodiak Island's Kiliuda Bay, but officials wouldn't estimate its arrival because of weather conditions — winds of about 18 mph and 15-foot ocean swells.
There's a salvage crew of 10 people on board and one Royal Dutch Shell representative.
The Kulluk was refloated late Sunday from rocks. There's no sign of any oil discharge from the vessel.
It is carrying more than 140,000 gallons of diesel and about 12,000 gallons of lube oil and hydraulic fluid.
The drilling vessel, which has no engines of its own, was being towed to Seattle for maintenance when it ran aground in a powerful storm on New Year's Eve.
More than 730 people are involved in the response and recovery operation, according to the Unified Command, which includes the Coast Guard, Shell and contractors involved in the tow and salvage operation.
The Kulluk is a circular barge 266 feet in diameter with a funnel-shaped, reinforced steel hull that allows it to operate in ice. One of two Shell ships that drilled last year in the Arctic Ocean, it has a 160-foot derrick rising from its center and no propulsion system of its own.
The Kulluk is being towed by the Aiviq, the same vessel that lost the Kulluk Dec. 27 when a line broke. Four re-attached lines between the Aiviq or other vessels also broke in stormy weather and went aground.
Shell reported superficial damage above the deck and seawater within that entered through open hatches. Water has knocked out regular and emergency generators, but portable generators were put on board late last week.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2016 - 07:04am PT
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ƒ
Drilling in Parts of the Atlantic and the Arctic
Thanks to the wording of the law that Obama is using to create ban, it may never be lifted.“The president of the United States may, from time to time, withdraw from disposition any of the un-leased lands of the Outer Continental Shelf.”
From reading this thread this morning, I see I that I broke my self-imposed rule of not to debate with those who disagree with my ideas. However, when my point is not clear or being misinterpreted, I think I have to clarify.
One person in particular, whose occupation cannot help to create bias, makes statements that are unfounded since he he knows nothing of me, i.e., my absolute disdain for drilling or exploration in this pristine and delicate ecosysytem. I use as little fossil fuel as our society allows. If possible I would make changes to my lifestyle to reduce my present consumption.
Pictures below, although other than the first were taken in Western Vancouver, show what can happen, despite every effort to prevent accidents.
Accidents will happen, at least Elvis Costello says so, but these kind are not worth the risk.
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