Immunizations....what has happened

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Messages 121 - 140 of total 168 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 2, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Mar 2, 2015 - 06:30pm PT
That's goddam funny, JB. And spot-on.

I take exception, though, to the choice of words used by those docs at the start of their rant:
"I'm xxx, and I believe in vaccinations."

This ain't no goddam religion...this is science, and medicine. Facts stand by themselves...you can either choose to acknowledge them, or stick your head in the sand (which is up your arse) and ignore them.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:07am PT
For a lot of educated parents videos like the above are counter productive. I'm not going to give my children something for herd immunity that can cause:

Deafness.
Long-term seizures, coma, lowered consciousness.
Permanent brain damage.

Without thorough and accurate knowledge of the risks involved. When my son was born in 2001 we couldn't find actual statistics and we delayed some of his shots. It's gotten much better lately. Not all parents don't immunize because of beliefs, some don't immunize because of lack of scientific understanding of the risks. Or some kids have bad reactions to one shot and the parents don't want to risk more shots.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 3, 2015 - 10:23am PT
My wife has had patients who wanted the Ebola vaccine but refused the flu vaccine.

What is really needed in this country is a brain vaccine.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Canada
Mar 14, 2015 - 10:45am PT


Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2015 - 09:57pm PT
Ok, since I started this post, we've come aways.

http://www.polioeradication.org/Dataandmonitoring/Poliothisweek.aspx

There was a setback in 2014, with 359 cases worldwide.

Through last week, there have been 25 in the world, and now it seem confined to 2 countries, down from 11 last year.

All due to vaccines.

Another emerging success, although not vaccine controlled, is Guinea Worm:

http://www.cartercenter.org/health/guinea_worm/case-totals.html

When The Carter Center began leading the international campaign to eradicate Guinea worm disease in 1986, there were an estimated 3.5 million cases in 21 countries in Africa and Asia. Today, that number has been reduced by more than 99.99 percent, with the vast majority of cases remaining in South Sudan.

In 2014, 126 cases of Guinea worm disease were reported worldwide.

Through April, in 2015, the number is THREE, worldwide.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:52am PT
I guess as long as you implicitly trust big pharmaceutical companies then its no problem. Who do you work for Ken?
dirtbag

climber
Jun 4, 2015 - 05:16am PT
Yes studly, efforts to eradicate guinea worn (not through vaccines, btw) and polio haven't greatly improved the human condition.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jun 4, 2015 - 09:15am PT
I'm not going to give my children something for herd immunity that can cause:



The Fet, I know you're a smart guy, and I see your point, but I would guess you'd have to admit that the big picture goals and missions of vaccines have been an overwhelming success, I mean in terms of global suffering, which there is still plenty of.

For a lot of educated parents videos like the above are counter productive.
That's a first world problem I'd say.


How would you feel about the total disappearance of vaccines? Or if none of the community around you was vaccinated for anything?

The truth is that much more massive numbers of people have died from giant outbreaks of disease than have been injured by vaccines.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 4, 2015 - 09:19am PT
This is so tiresome.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 4, 2015 - 09:29am PT
It is, Reilly.



Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jun 4, 2015 - 09:35am PT
I'm looking forward to seeing third world comedians spoof first world ignorance about vaccines.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 4, 2015 - 09:47am PT
Only in America can one be considered a caring parent if you don't spank yer kid yet you
refuse them a smallpox or polio vaccine. Do we have lead water pipes?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Jun 4, 2015 - 09:49am PT
We're going to kick the children of these morons OUT OF CALIFORNIA PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

We'll keep our herd safe. Yall can go f*#k over your kids on your own dime.

DMT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2015 - 10:31am PT
Only in America can one be considered a caring parent if you don't spank yer kid yet you
refuse them a smallpox or polio vaccine. Do we have lead water pipes?

Thankfully, smallpox was eradicated from the world in 1980. We no longer vaccinate children for it. So it is easy to forget what it was like. I've never seen a case.

The disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans annually during the closing years of the 18th century (including five reigning monarchs),[10] and was responsible for a third of all blindness.[6][11] Of all those infected, 2060 percent and over 80 percent of infected children died from the disease.[12] Smallpox was responsible for an estimated 300500 million deaths during the 20th century.[13][14][15] As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization (WHO) estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year.[5]
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2015 - 10:32am PT
Studly, I am retired. However, I was independently in practice virtually my whole career, and did not collect a paycheck from anyone.

Who do YOU work for?
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jun 4, 2015 - 10:45am PT
I thought you might be tied to medical or pharma Ken. I work for myself. and I make my own decisions. I advocate a vegetarian diet and healthy lifestyle, rather then what our medical society today advocates which is not prevention but trying to get people hooked on prescription drugs and other medical services. I am neither pro nor against all vaccinations. Some have done much good. But anything from Big Pharma nowadays I will look at with great skepticism.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:10am PT
Exactly ^^

Big Pharma is here to make money. Period. If they can make more money than they'll lose hurting people, they will. There is no moral component to their MO... They are not here to help anything but their bottom line.

I was one of the unfortunate folks to be injected with the Lymerix vaccine years ago which turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. It ended up costing the company more money in lawsuits than it made them so they pulled it.

The only real way to know if a vaccine is "safe" is a decade or so of guinea pigs before you. Some are good, some are certainly not.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:24am PT
How would you feel about the total disappearance of vaccines? Or if none of the community around you was vaccinated for anything?

The truth is that much more massive numbers of people have died from giant outbreaks of disease than have been injured by vaccines.

This isn't an all or nothing question are far as I'm concerned. As I posted:
Without thorough and accurate knowledge of the risks involved.

My point was this isn't just about "beliefs", it's about being able to make an informed decision and not blindly trusting a multi-billion dollar industry and the government to make decisions for my family.

Of course I feel the total disappearance of vaccines would be terrible and if the community wasn't vaccinated it would be terrible. And yes vaccines for the most part have helped tremendously. And my kids have gotten most or all of their vaccines (my wife keeps track of medical stuff), but we delayed some of them.

To me it's about being able to make an informed decision as a parent about the actual risks and benefits for EACH vaccine. What I'm not going to do is blindly give my kids all the vaccines because the government, heavily influenced by the vaccine manufacturers, is telling me to. Those are decisions that I and my wife are going to make based on the best available information.

There are some vaccines available in Europe that appear safer than those used in the US (different preservatives, etc). But if you want them in the US you have to pay out the ass to get them and get them shipped to the US. Why, because the vaccine industry has already decided that for us.

Like I said it has gotten much better. When my son was born in 2001 the pamphlets they gave out said things like "slight risk of serious complications like seizure, deafness, death". And I asked the Doctor what does "slight risk" mean statistically? Like 1 in a million, 1 in 10,000? And they said, "we don't know". Really? This industry makes billions of dollars and they can't fund studies and communicate the actual risks and produce literature to compare that to the risk of getting the disease or what would happen to the chance of getting the disease over time if people don't vaccinate?

About 700 people have died since 2000 from vaccines. Of course MANY more would have died from disease. But anything I'm going to do to my children with the risk of death must be well explained.

Maybe they heard enough feedback over the years because the information was much better in 2009 when my younger son was born. The pamphlets gave actual statistics.

So long winded, but I guess my point is that if you want people to vaccinate with things that do present some risk you need to clearly communicate the risks and benefits, at least for people like me that want to make an informed decision and are not going to just trust the govt. and industry on what's best for their kids.

It bugs me that now they want to pass a bill to force ALL vaccines on all kids in California. If a kid misses 1 shot they are considered "unvaccinated". Like I said my kids are vaccinated, but we waited and spaced them out compared to the recommended schedules. They want us to give up that kind of choice and freedom.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:28am PT
Certain types of viruses lend themselves to well proven practices for very safe vaccination. For example the new papiloma vaccinations are excellent.

In clinical trials of 30,000 people, potential side effects ranging from fever to death occurred at the same rate whether patients were given a saline solution placebo or Gardasil. Deaths occurred in 0.1% of people in either group.

This is just a tiny sample of the information available and it is all easy to look up.

This type of information is very useful if you have concerns and wish to educate yourself. This should make it clear that the benefits FAR exceed any perceived but unmeasured risk.
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