Immunizations....what has happened

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Messages 121 - 140 of total 149 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jun 4, 2015 - 10:45am PT
I thought you might be tied to medical or pharma Ken. I work for myself. and I make my own decisions. I advocate a vegetarian diet and healthy lifestyle, rather then what our medical society today advocates which is not prevention but trying to get people hooked on prescription drugs and other medical services. I am neither pro nor against all vaccinations. Some have done much good. But anything from Big Pharma nowadays I will look at with great skepticism.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:10am PT
Exactly ^^

Big Pharma is here to make money. Period. If they can make more money than they'll lose hurting people, they will. There is no moral component to their MO... They are not here to help anything but their bottom line.

I was one of the unfortunate folks to be injected with the Lymerix vaccine years ago which turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. It ended up costing the company more money in lawsuits than it made them so they pulled it.

The only real way to know if a vaccine is "safe" is a decade or so of guinea pigs before you. Some are good, some are certainly not.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:24am PT
How would you feel about the total disappearance of vaccines? Or if none of the community around you was vaccinated for anything?

The truth is that much more massive numbers of people have died from giant outbreaks of disease than have been injured by vaccines.

This isn't an all or nothing question are far as I'm concerned. As I posted:
Without thorough and accurate knowledge of the risks involved.

My point was this isn't just about "beliefs", it's about being able to make an informed decision and not blindly trusting a multi-billion dollar industry and the government to make decisions for my family.

Of course I feel the total disappearance of vaccines would be terrible and if the community wasn't vaccinated it would be terrible. And yes vaccines for the most part have helped tremendously. And my kids have gotten most or all of their vaccines (my wife keeps track of medical stuff), but we delayed some of them.

To me it's about being able to make an informed decision as a parent about the actual risks and benefits for EACH vaccine. What I'm not going to do is blindly give my kids all the vaccines because the government, heavily influenced by the vaccine manufacturers, is telling me to. Those are decisions that I and my wife are going to make based on the best available information.

There are some vaccines available in Europe that appear safer than those used in the US (different preservatives, etc). But if you want them in the US you have to pay out the ass to get them and get them shipped to the US. Why, because the vaccine industry has already decided that for us.

Like I said it has gotten much better. When my son was born in 2001 the pamphlets they gave out said things like "slight risk of serious complications like seizure, deafness, death". And I asked the Doctor what does "slight risk" mean statistically? Like 1 in a million, 1 in 10,000? And they said, "we don't know". Really? This industry makes billions of dollars and they can't fund studies and communicate the actual risks and produce literature to compare that to the risk of getting the disease or what would happen to the chance of getting the disease over time if people don't vaccinate?

About 700 people have died since 2000 from vaccines. Of course MANY more would have died from disease. But anything I'm going to do to my children with the risk of death must be well explained.

Maybe they heard enough feedback over the years because the information was much better in 2009 when my younger son was born. The pamphlets gave actual statistics.

So long winded, but I guess my point is that if you want people to vaccinate with things that do present some risk you need to clearly communicate the risks and benefits, at least for people like me that want to make an informed decision and are not going to just trust the govt. and industry on what's best for their kids.

It bugs me that now they want to pass a bill to force ALL vaccines on all kids in California. If a kid misses 1 shot they are considered "unvaccinated". Like I said my kids are vaccinated, but we waited and spaced them out compared to the recommended schedules. They want us to give up that kind of choice and freedom.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:28am PT
Certain types of viruses lend themselves to well proven practices for very safe vaccination. For example the new papiloma vaccinations are excellent.

In clinical trials of 30,000 people, potential side effects ranging from fever to death occurred at the same rate whether patients were given a saline solution placebo or Gardasil. Deaths occurred in 0.1% of people in either group.

This is just a tiny sample of the information available and it is all easy to look up.

This type of information is very useful if you have concerns and wish to educate yourself. This should make it clear that the benefits FAR exceed any perceived but unmeasured risk.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Studly and fear had some good posts above as I wrote mine.

The only real way to know if a vaccine is "safe" is a decade or so of guinea pigs before you. Some are good, some are certainly not.

One of the vaccines they wanted to give to my son was only a couple years old. Finally after grilling the doctor about it for a while she admitted they don't know much about the long term risk, and the risk of the disease for that vaccine was very low. We decided to wait on that one.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:52am PT
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

There are risks with some. By far most side effects are merely discomforting in nature.

There are some severe risks. But the risk of severe reaction clearly associated with some vaccinations while real are in all cases far far (orders of magnitude) rarer than the risks associated with non vaccination.

Which makes sense when one thinks about it...if this were not true there would not be such vaccines. For various reasons not requiring good faith.

It does not take 10 years of non trial data to determine these things. in fact non trial data is a much less efficient way of detecting possible problems. Lack of controls make it extremely difficult or impossible to use reliably. At best it may suggest an issue that then must be followed up with a strict regimen of research.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Jun 4, 2015 - 11:59am PT
Vaccines certainly can pose risks to one's health. As most of you pointed out, the benefits outweigh the risks, but some of the vaccinations seem to be unnecessary given a small chance of catching that particular disease.

Should we, then, use statistics to make an informed decision?

Would you vaccinate your child if the chance of dying from the side effects of the vaccine was 1 in 10,000, vs 0.01% from contracting the disease?

Lets's say, everybody decided to not vaccinate. Then, of curse, some children WILL catch the disease. Since nobody is vaccinated, you get an epidemic (or pandemic).

Are you sure you want to leave the decision whether to vaccinate or not in the hands of mostly ignorant parents?

Moose

P.S. And don't give me any sh!t. It's my birthday.

-Drool
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
I'm anti-vax. only 97.2% of all scientific studies on the subject show them to work, well, that just isn't good enough for me.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
No that is not the only way to know. Certain types of viruses lend themselves to well proven practices for very safe vaccination. For example the new papiloma vaccinations are excellent.

In clinical trials of 30,000 people, potential side effects ranging from fever to death occurred at the same rate whether patients were given a saline solution placebo or Gardasil. Deaths occurred in 0.1% of people in either group.

This type of information is very useful and should make it clear that the benefits FAR exceed any percieved but unmeasured risk.

You can't possibly know all the potential effects of any NEW vaccine on a massive population over decades without actually releasing it into that population. It MIGHT be fine, but the first wave of brave people are glorified guinea pigs. A 30,000 person trial over a couple of years paid for by the corporation (no conflicts there I'm sure) means little.

Again, I'm not "anti-vaccine" either, just realize these companies are by and large couldn't care less about your health as long as their ROI comes back as fast as possible so they can get their bonuses before the lawsuits bankrupt the firm.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
Happy birthday moose.

I would make my decision this way. Anytime the risk of difference is 100x or better in favor of vaccine then vaccinate.

I'm guessing that covers nearly all of them but I suppose there may be some rare regionally dangerous diseases not worth any risk of vaccination.

For example if they came up with an ebola vaccine I wouldn't take it here in Nevada.

regarding possible subtle side effects that wont show up for decades? The components of vaccines simply don't lend themselves to those types of side effects. Nothing carcinogenic or hormonal in their makeup. Possibly thimerisol (heavymetal) but that HAS been studied for decades and not found to be a problem. One can if worried about it pay extra for non thimerisol versions.

By far the biggest risks are high fevers and allergic reactions. Fairly immediate onset issues.

There is no way uncontrolled sampling can compete with controlled study. You may or may not catch something in an uncontrolled study.. but then you will need a controlled study to verify it anyway. More likely you will find coincidental problems not associated. Yet people will jump to conclusions based on coincidence.

moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
Thanks, Climbski2.

Anytime the risk of difference is 100x or better in favor of vaccine then vaccinate.

You are a smart guy and would most likely make a right decision, if you knew ALL important variables.. But, like I said, most people have no idea how to make those decisions.

It is much safer for everybody to make vaccinations mandatory.

Moose
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
What bugs me is that people somehow think that a few minutes of reading a layman article can compete with a decade or more of intense study multiplied over thousands of individuals most of whom are dedicated to getting this right for all of us.

I don't trust corporations in some ways but I do trust what I said above. Also killing lots of innocent people with your product tends not to be profitable. Yes there are short term rare exceptions.


It's like a newbie 1 day gym climber telling Mark Hudon and the whole climbing community how to wall climb and that goldline is the right way to do it.. Worse actually.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jun 4, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
Climbski, what's the root motivation of any large public corporation?

To do good works?

To make the world a better place?

And killing your customers isn't a problem with the right lawyers and marketing in place. Phillip and Morris turn a profit every year and kill plenty producing products of zero societal value.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jun 4, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
Why do all you card-carrying Robespierre Chowder and Marching Society members
think that everybody that works for a corporation is the devil incarnate?
I know a couple of high ranking execs in a major pharma company and, trust
me, they're humans. They aren't against making their company some money but
they're certainly not gonna do it while marching over dead bodies, like you
lot would to prove your inanely over-simplified points.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
I did say there were exceptions.. and i did say innocent consumers not ones who knowingly make a poor choice.

I also said there were thousands of very dedicated expert people involved in the development of vaccines that do so to save lives. The chance to save lives one of the main very real allures of the medical research field.

I worked in medical research briefly. Quickly realizing that labwork drives me crazy. I'm not built for it unfortunately. Endless meticulousness...pipetting, note taking , databasing and calculating...in noisy humming rooms..aaaahhg..

Liquid nitrogen is fun though.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jun 4, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
The major reason birthrates are coming down all over the developing world is that infant death rates have fallen so people no longer feel the need to have 3-5 of each gender in order to have a couple alive in their old age. The reason they've fallen is vaccinations, rehydration therapy and in some cases clean drinking water. Primarily however, it has been vaccinations which have given parents the confidence to have fewer children.

Most people on the Taco are too young to remember having all the diseases that we now vaccinate for. I'm old enough however, to remember children in iron lungs and the day all the church bells in America rang out to celebrate that a polio vaccine had finally been invented. For people who lived through those times, it's beyond ironic that parents are now refusing the same vaccines.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2015 - 01:50pm PT
Like I said it has gotten much better. When my son was born in 2001 the pamphlets they gave out said things like "slight risk of serious complications like seizure, deafness, death". And I asked the Doctor what does "slight risk" mean statistically? Like 1 in a million, 1 in 10,000? And they said, "we don't know". Really? This industry makes billions of dollars and they can't fund studies and communicate the actual risks and produce literature to compare that to the risk of getting the disease or what would happen to the chance of getting the disease over time if people don't vaccinate?

About 700 people have died since 2000 from vaccines. Of course MANY more would have died from disease. But anything I'm going to do to my children with the risk of death must be well explained.

Ok you keep demanding high-quality research. What is your source for the 700, because I can't find that.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 4, 2015 - 02:25pm PT
Why is that when you question blindly following the whole program people assume you are rejecting all vaccines and demand you provide evidence to support your position. I'm not the govt. in not the industry. It's not my job to figure this stuff out and communicate it. I can't remember where I heard 700 people died from vaccines but I did a quick web search and the CDC shows a "less than 1 in a million" chance of death from allergic reactions to common vaccines.

So we are asking parents to take that very small but real chance of giving their kids something that could kill them. If you are asking me to do that I need the information to make an informed decision. And that's my point. Don't just tell me to do it, tell me why it's a good idea.

Yes there are quacks out there and bad information rejecting vaccines but they need to counter that with reasonable fact based arguments. Not just "do it or you are stupid". That sh#t don't fly with me.

And again my kids did get their vaccines after we spent a lot of time doing research and using the best information available. It shouldn't be like that the pamphlets they give everyone should be complete or at least have a link to a website which really explains the risks and benefits.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Jun 4, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
I can understand having concerns especially with the amount of misinformation that has been passed around for the last 10 years. But you kinda make my point.. once even moderately informed it becomes clear that the recommended vaccines should be taken. Perhaps you decide to pay extra for a certain type or change the schedule slightly but those are fairly minor adjustments to the general medical advice.

Sadly some people have a hard time comprehending the weighing of risk..and cannot come to term with the fact that there are no guarantees. Thus their bad decisions can put a lot of people at much higher and unnecessary risk. In these cases it is right to have laws requiring the good decisions.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2015 - 06:39pm PT
It's not my job to figure this stuff out and communicate it.

I agree....and yet, here you are quoting numbers that you can't back up.

Whose job is it? Generally, it is the Pediatrician and Family Practice doctors, who train for many years to be able to interpret the information.

Those doctors are NOT on the payroll of Pharma, nor in most cases, the gov't (I guess unless they are military docs), so there is no conflict of interest.
For most docs in private practice, vaccines are a break-even or even money losing proposition. No financial incentive to give them, and a pain in the ass to deal with.

The question of the actual risk, and the difficulty in assessing this: The system of drug safety in the country requires that in testing, if anyone has a "reaction" or a death---from any cause---it MUST be listed in the packaging of the drug. Even if it had nothing to do with administration of the drug/vaccine. This is why there can never be a risk-free vaccine.

When you get down to these very tiny, basically immeasurable rates, you see them described as "less than 1 in a million", which really means it is so low that it can't be measured relative to the normal risks of living.
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