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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:49pm PT
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Anders,
we HAVE laws.
We just don't enforce them effectively.
I'd love to hang around and debate some more, but I have a life, you know!
I gotta get down to the bunker with another load of canned donkey meat and wag bags, and then mix up another batch of C4.
Then I have to mount reactive armor on my 4X4 before coming back to convert a black with devious perfidy.
Then I gotta load all the drum magazines. Sheesh, that's gonna take half the night!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
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One thing that doesn't often come up in the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument is that without a gun it's really hard to kill someone
The largest school killing a US history was in 1927 in Michigan. It was done with dynamite and pyrotol. 45 people including 38 children were killed.
Psychopaths are violent people who have no conscience, and if such a person is bent on mayhem they will do their best to find a way. Think Timothy McVeigh, Theodore Kaczynski, Ted Bundy... Remember the Church bombings in the 1960's in the deep south. Evil men with no sense of remorse, no conscience, these people are the problem.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
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Evil men with no sense of remorse, no conscience, these people are the problem.
Any thoughts on the solution?
Is there any hope that the actions of these people can be mitigated somehow?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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whether you agree or not, the specific argument here is whether strict GUN CONTROL may reduce massacres or random gun violence by, say, 15% to 35%
yes, that does seem to definitely be the case in other countries that try it
those grouping of humans made the choice to sacrifice some personal gun "liberties" so that their society as a whole would be made better, safer
America seems to be very different in that regard
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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I don't really agree with the logic of the article below; correlation isn't causation. But still correlation is interesting (I know, its not scientific. cherry picks example etc). Personally I come from a liberal anti-gun family, and my own political tendencies are somewhere in the liberal to radical left spectrum. And I have never owned or even shot a gun in my life (unless you include BB guns). But I have to admit, with recent changes in US laws I am less willing to support gun control. Posse Comitatus effectively repealed (US Military can be brought home and turned on US citizens.) Habeous Corpus reneged (no right trial nor to face one's accuser in court of law), US citizenship itself can be denied if you give donations to an organization deemed "terrorist" by the state department. on and on. School shootings are horrible, but the deaths aren't in the 10s of millions. Personally I'm more afraid of an out-of-control government then I am of angry disturbed kids getting guns. Its a question of the scale of the evil.
anyway, here is one (right-wing nut's) argument. take if for what you will
"Gun control. A Brief history!
by Odinsown Posted July 29, 2012
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ------------------------------Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. -----------------------------Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.. ------------------------------You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens. Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late! The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson. With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'. During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED! If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun -control message to all of your friends. The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental. SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE. SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!"
from http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/gun-control-a-brief-history/question-2835069/
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
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rockermike, every one of those examples in those countries involved the government killing its own people, not the people killing each other
thus, it is apples to oranges, if that is the supporting argument for "no gun control"
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
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Jim wrote: Bluering, please work on your reading comprehension
Pretty hard when you are a raging drunk when posting here.
Joe, Norton and other...please don't think you will get anywhere with these flat earthers by posting real data disproving their points...it didn't work during the election and it is not going to work now.
O.k., so I'm relegated to "drunk" status. Fine. Believe what you will. Guns are the problem, not people meaning to do harm to others....
Idiots.
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coppertone
Trad climber
CT
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
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I have not read the entire thread but as a Newtown resident and a climber I know the power of both our community here in Newtown as well as the climbing community. I have seen the climbing community pull together many times before to help those in need. I don't care to discuss or debate any of the politics right now, but what I can say is that we are all beyond sad and distraught right now, but we will band together as a community, help our neighbors try to cope with this and continue to be an amazing place live and raise a family. If anyone out there is looking to help some of the families you see some the links that I am posting below.
http://newtown.patch.com/articles/ways-to-help-sandy-hook
https://www.facebook.com/FriendsOfTheEngelFamilyFund
https://www.facebook.com/EmilieParkerFund
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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(re: norton's comment above)
no, that's not my point. The gun control argument is that if individuals don't have access to guns, we won't have as many mass killings (true enough, I agree). But the other side of the argument, and I find a valid one, is that "we the people" need guns to defend ourselves from an out of control government. Of course where you come down on this argument probably has to do with your judgment of how benign the government is. I personally am finding it less and less credible to pretend the government is basically good.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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I'm not in favor of any gun control.
All rope guns should have total unrestricted rein!
Ooops .... wrong thread .... ?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
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you folks all need to realize that you are being played as suckers by a power hungry cadre that will stop at nothing to create complete control of a slavemaster society
the primary barrier to their goal of complete domination of society is a well-armed private citizenry
they will stop at no level of atrocities and social manipulation to attain their goals of complete power over society
if you think all these atrocities are actions by independent psychos, you are just unaware of how hard this cadre has worked during and after WWII to develop mind control technologies
you had better stop being horrified only by these atrocities and start being horrified by the motives and sick morality of the cadre manipulating our society with a bottomless black budget of taxpayer funds
these actions will continue to escalate until they succeed, including major terrorists acts or even a phony space alien invasion
or until they are outed
please don't just accept or reject what i am saying
i will gain absolutely no pleasure from eventually being able to tell you that i told you so
we are in the middle of the moment of truth where the bull notices the difference between the red cape and the matador...just before the matador kills him
please just do your homework before it is too late
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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Someone explain to me why 100 million guns would not be enough? That's my target number to reduce non-military, private possession to.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
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Tom, with that single post, I have quite unfortunately just lost all respect for you. You reveal yourself to be just another self-deluded Alex Jones whack job - really astounding to the point of being unbelievable. Just so incredibly sad. Please resume your meds before it's too late.
P. S. Even sadder still to hear you believe that yet all your income comes from the "cadre" and has all along. Next you'll be telling us the moon landings were all a hoax. Again, sad beyond all measure.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Connecticut is not a hotbed of NRA members. There was a gun club down the street from me, and gunfire from target shooting is a sound I am familiar with. Our neighbor hunted, and we would be beneficiaries of venison.
I don't equate gun ownership with violence in all settings. In the city, they scare me. In a house with small children, they scare me. I refused to allow my husband to have a gun in the house while the children were living with us. Given where we live now, I would not object today. Most people in my area have guns. Hunting is a huge part of the culture here. Most people are very careful and take handling of weapons very seriously. I don't feel unsafe - except at dawn or dusk when not wearing blaze orange and in the forest from labor Day through Christmas.
My hometown was the site of the largest mass murder in the history of the state of CT prior to yesterday. No gun was involved. The weapon was a tire iron. The victims were a woman and 8 children. The murderer was a foster brother to the woman's husband. He set fire to the house after he was done killing the family. I will never forget that - or seeing him walking down the road in the early morning hours, near that house burning. I will never forget the media sticking their cameras into the church windows to get the video of those small caskets in our church.
I hate to see the victims of crimes being used as posters for the all gun or no gun lobbies. We can all agree that this was a tragedy.
Do we eliminate liquor which reduces inhibitions and seems to be related to stupid activity? We tried that, and it failed. In 2010, 10,228 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (31%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States.
Is there room for a ban on certain types of weapons? Probably. Would that prevent any fatalities? I don't think so. Insane people determined to hurt others will find a way to do so. But I am willing to compromise.
On Wednesday a distinguished Senator from CT retired, virtually alone on the Senate floor. Why? He had become a pariah to his party because of his willingness to work across party lines. Compromise for the common good has become nearly extinct. People fear giving an inch and losing a mile. So our society has become so polarized and stuck in self defeating gridlock.
None of this discussion changes the carnage in Sandy Hook Elementary School. I hope President Obama learns that he is in Newtown and not Newton when he arrives on Sunday. I am completely pessimistic about the nature of political discourse going forward. Remember all those cries for toning done the harshness after Gabbi Gifford was shot. I still don't see any leadership towards a positive, cooperative approach to solving our problems. It is still threats, ultimatums, posturing and name calling.
Time keeps ticking away. Time to hug the kids again and try to set an example of how to conduct oneself in a world where bad behavior owns the news.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:03am PT
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i am not posting here to gain or lose anyone's respect
i am no great fan of lethal weaponry and sincerely believe that the greatest warrior is the last person to pick up a weapon
i am more than willing to be proven wrong or to lose someone's respect or much worse
but i am afraid to remain silent in the face of what i see happening
please do your own homework
please prove me right or prove me wrong
i would honestly like nothing better in life than to be proven wrong about this
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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I am what I am and totally consistent and transparent in my posts. Let the chips fall where they will, I have no dependency on ST.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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There's this infamous Karl Rove quote.
“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:11am PT
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Tom, sadly, proving you wrong is no different than proving belief in the tooth fairy is wrong. I know just as much about the government as you and more about the military and intelligence services. You are ranting. No further "homework" is necessary. Glad to see you finally all the way out of the closet after several years of beating around the paranormal bush.
I'm sure Alex Jones could use a 'science' advisor - a better candidate I couldn't imagine. Tragic still on top of the tragedy at hand.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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AND THE BLACK MARKET WILL STILL SUPPLY CRIMINALS WITH PLENTY OF GUNS
It isn't the "criminals" you're talking about that massacre twenty children.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 16, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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Alex Jones is a nut case and Tom C is not affilaited in any way to that screwball Joe.
You're projecting bullsh!t again.
It's all so subtle it's going right over the top of your so called know it all head ......
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