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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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we should make Americans pass a test before they earn the right to propogate Unbelievably simplistic. Haven't you ever seen families where there are productive kids and then one that seems to be the "bad seed"? It's way complex....like you could take an SAT to become a parent? Blame the parents, blame he grandparents, keep on going back...if only it were so simple..
Susan
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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Idiocracy is a great movie and a true story.
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
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We have drivers test but we never weed out the dumb asses that bare children and wreak havoc on society...
You would be the first one weeded out for poor grammar, rotten punctuation, misspelling, and inappropriate word usage -- you be a dumb ass, babe.
Do you carry a gun?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
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So you can have people being raised by their video games, with images of death and destruction that they end up living out
You know, I was raised on video games, and violence, and Tarantino movies. All of it. Since I was a kid.
I played Doom when I was in Grade school, Duke Nukem in Middle school, Unreal Tournament and Quake in High school. I like to climb, and am outdoors a lot now, but then it was only rarely in passing - every kid I grew up with, and played with, were hard core gamers. Six of those kids have children of their own and are active in their own church ministry.
I had guns, too - I had BB and Pellet guns and toy samurai swords, and anything else a geeky kid would think is cool. I liked Maralyn Manson, Tool... and so did most of my school.
I was in 10th grade when Columbine happened. It seemed crazy at the time, but after Helix I kind of thought it was a 'thing'. I remember doing drills in case of it happening. I remember DARE class, and having grown-ups tell me that random people offer me heroin on the street and this is how drugs get introduced to people. I remember saluting a flag every morning when I really wanted to do pretty much anything else. A lot of this stuff seemed like stupid grown-up stuff that I'll understand later.
What I'm getting at is this - it isn't video games, it isn't music, I know you're all scared to lose your kids (I was one of them) - it isn't anything you can say or do to these kids that do this. You just have to listen to them. For once.
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TFSTFU
Trad climber
Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
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.We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.
If I was religious I'd pray for you. How many people put god before reason during the crusades? The middle east today is a holy war, still. Wise up.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:24pm PT
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"What changed in the past 20-30 years that is causing young men to kill large numbers of RANDOM people? "
The refusal to take action against it, and the lack of gun laws that enable it.
You're thinking too simplistically although I understand why. The frustration after such a horrendous event will do that to anyone. We are all frustrated and upset.
You cannot legislate away the end result of apparent psychotic rage by young men with above-average intelligence and means. There were 700 little kids in that school on Friday. We're lucky he "only" chose a firearm. As horrible as that is, 300 caskets would be even worse. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with 5 or more more effective methods to kill groups of unarmed civilians packed into small enclosed areas.
Without addressing and fixing what is recently triggering these men, laws are of zero consequence.
HIPAA and privacy laws be damned for these killers. We need to understand the medical and mental condition of these killers from cradle to grave. Every drug, every diagnoses, every juvenile offense, etc... We need to find if there is a common thread. I've got my money on the recent crop of head meds.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
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The bottom line may just be this:
The sum total of our culture adds up to this sort of thing happening once in awhile and there's nothing we can really do about it that our culture would actually have the will to do (outlaw guns, way less violence in movies and games, develop a whole better culture of relating to kids, particularly in single parent families) Even those intense solutions might only slow things down.
We're just going to have to live with a tragedy now and then. Terrorists will strike now and then, even (or especially) if we dominate the whole world militarily. Some whacko is going to go ballistic now and then, and they'll find a way to take a bunch of people with them
Just life sadly
Peace
Karl
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
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I'd usually agree with you Karl... But something feels different. That kid who charged into that Oregon mall in a hockey mask seemed so Goddamn "normal" and happy a few weeks before. It really bugged me.
I hope we're not on the cusp of something much worse.
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LilaBiene
Trad climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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Norton: I don't believe that making changes to the gun laws on the Federal or even State level will make any difference. This is not a belief derived from fear of infringement of my Constitutional rights or that guns will become less available.
People that are unstable and intent on inflicting pain on others will do so regardless of any laws in effect.
I view what happened as a problem that needs to be addressed by every one of us, beginning with being compassionate and having the courage to speak up when something is wrong.
Personal integrity and responsibility aren't things that can or should be legislated.
I respect our difference of opinion, and objected simply to your approach.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
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It seems critical thinking skills have taken a hiatus... to be expected in a time like this.
Inanimate objects do not and cannot induce suicidal/homicidal rage. They also have not changed. You could walk into a gun store 50 some years ago and buy a machine gun off the shelf. Did multiple 20-somethings go execute strangers in public with such tools?
We also need to separate "Gun violence" (i.e. robberies/gang wars/etc) with the recent crop of "Random Mass Killings". I believe they are seperate issues.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
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I wonder if any of these shooters could tell you what the second ammendment is, and if they can't, would the above arguments hold water?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Inanimate objects do not and cannot induce suicidal/homicidal rage
I know you are referring to guns
but those little inanimate pills can sure induce suicide or murderous rage
as can PCP, Meth, Heroin, etc
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:11pm PT
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So far, the reasons given in this thread for the massacre are:
Lax gun laws
Video games
Lack of faith in a higher power
The 'Media'
'Lack of proper social structure'
The shooter was American
Lack of proper mental health services
'Lack of moral responsibility etc...etc...etc...
The list goes on and on.
This need to 'blame' something or someone for such an act seems futile to me.
I don't want to rationalize this monstrous act. There is no 'reason' for this behavior.
These crimes will continue whether or not we outlaw guns, remove violence in cinema, TV and video games or everyone believes in the same 'god'.
It would not change a thing. People will slaughter others at will.
Be prepared to take care of yourself and others you care for, that's the best you can do.
We are a species riddled with faults and anomalies. The monsters that carry out these crimes will always be among us. Fear them or be prepared to challenge them.
When Gilles de Rais slaughtered hundreds of children, there were no video games, semi-automatic weapons or 'media'. Child/serial killers have always been here and are among us now. It is a fact of life.
These killers are here. They need to be identified and dealt with.
We should be on alert and on the hunt for them.
Unfortunately, we won't find them all and some will continue on their path of destruction.
These killers do not deserve our mercy or forgiveness. They truly are the enemy.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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Did the guy know what the second amendment was?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
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So Karl,
Would the "that's just life" argument have the same result in logic in this situation if the bonehead shooting wasn't able to shoot ?
America is intellectually dysfunctional about guns and their consequences based on an emotional attachment to an ideal that concerned political tyranny originally. It has transformed into a right to kill your neighbor if they make you feel awkward.
Yip, the logic is that Americans don't have the will to do any changes extreme enough to change the situation. (not saying that's good or bad) so like "this modern life" suggests above, it's a done deal.
The emotions over this incident dissipate long before significant changes can be put into law.
The right to own guns pretty freely is as entrenched in this country just as unquestioning acceptance of a vast unneeded military budget. Right not we're talking about screwing with seniors rather than raise taxes on the rich or cutting military spending. Gun control is like that too, like questioning an argument that's already settled, like it or not
peace
karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
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Just poked back in for shlts and giggles.
Norton, you've been around here longer, but Lilabiene is ST royalty and your rudeness a couple pages back was a poor show for us indeed.
You can do better.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
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I do agree that the media should self-police by NOT showing the killer's photo and repeating his name.
The "making it about the victims" idea is a proactive and wise.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:38pm PT
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Yeah, I guess shlts and giggles was a poor choice of words.
Emilie was a cute kid, should've lived much longer.
The giggles part is over the idealists who seem to really believe that if they pass a law then somehow they can get the genie back into the bottle.
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