Yep...ANOTHER mass shooting.

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apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 14, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
This time at an elementary school in Connecticut:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-connecticut-school-shooting-20121214,0,3154787.story

Just heard a news update...27 people dead, 18 of them children...story is just breaking, so facts are probably muddy right now...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
What the phuk is wrong with us?


there will be a special place in Hell for that shooter

I agree with Locker, he was already there.

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
WTF is wrong with people how can you be so broken?
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
i'm in tel aviv israel where i get a pre-recorded version of cnn. i don't speak hebrew, so that's about all i watch. well, cnn has cut in with live coverage of this event. i wish i was still watching Piers Morgan over and over and over again.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Wow, that's just so wrong. Wishing the best to the love ones and survivors. The Japanese media, when some tragedy is created by someone, will NOT post a picture of the criminal, but will put photos of the victims up. They say that putting up the criminals picture can (and does) cause marginally normal people to relate to the perpetrator and act out similar scenarios. It only takes a single person out of a million or 2 to make a big sh#t storm.

It is the opposite of what our media does. Since I can't control our media but just myself, when they start going on about the bitch who drove her car into a crowd etc etc, I turn it off or change the channel. The reason they drone on like that is purely for ratings, and if enough people changed their behavior it would change the medias response to these kinds of things.

Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
Good God! Why does this keep happening. We shouldn't give it so much attention.

My heart goes out to the families . . .
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
Sad. Unfortunately, the body count will need to be much higher to waken the American people up to the stranglehold the NRA has put them in.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Holy sh#t, this is tragic. 18 kids?

What kind of f*#king monster would even think of that?

What the eff are we coming to? The frequency of these events seems to be rising exponentially.

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
Sad. Unfortunately, the body count will need to be much higher to waken the American people up to the stranglehold the NRA has put them in.

The naked screaming 8,000 pound gorilla in the room.


GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM.

Part true, part PURE bullsh#t.

I'd rather be "injured" with a knife personally.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Please don't start the guns are not the problem argument.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
That only took a couple of days. Maybe if the children had been armed the toll wouldn't have been as high. When? When are we going to learn - guns ARE in fact the problem. NRA brainwashing, the insane commercial proliferation of small arms, and near total lack of control of weapons is making these incidents a weekly societal occurrence.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Guns are the problem when combined with movies and tv and other media that glorifies stupid american sh!t.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Maybe if the children had been armed the toll wouldn't have been as high.


Exactly.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
so a question for the gun nuts. why are you guys always cowards?

Sad. Unfortunately, the body count will need to be much higher to waken the American people up to the stranglehold the NRA has put them in.

exactly


NRA brainwashing, the insane commercial proliferation of small arms, and near total lack of control of weapons is making these incidents a weekly societal occurrence.

yup
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
Another senseless shooting. "Guns don't kill people..." right...

If you haven't seen it yet, you should: "Bowling for Columbine" by Michael Moore.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
the whole world's glued to the cable TV
It looks so real on the big LCD
murder and violence are rated PG, too bad for the children
they are what they see

Joe Walsh, Analog Man






so a question for the gun nuts. why are you guys always cowards?


Is that gonna be helpful?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
18 children plus eight

children were 5-10 years old

if only they had had weapons those kids could have defended themselves

wait for it
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
I'm always shocked at the level of violence in PG movies... and the lack hot nude female bodies.

locker, part of the problem could be 311 million people today compared to 179 million in 1960. Oh, and the proliferation of guns, violence, and ignorance.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
I'm always shocked at the level of violence in PG movies... and the lack hot nude female bodies.


Phukkin' AAAA brother.


Don't you know that a psycho's right to easy access to multi-round weapons is sacred and female bodies are BAAAAD? Where ya been dude?
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Is that gonna be helpful?

survival, you know what I am getting at
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
We had the same drugs, same mental illnesses, same weapons, etc...

Locker, we did not have the same access to PCP, Meth, etc back then

nor could anyone, anyone, be able to buy full military mega clip assault weapons when you and I were growing up
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
22 children injured in Chinese knife attack at elementary school.....


Injured is a lot different than dead.


Susan
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Guns are the problem when combined with movies and tv and other media that glorifies stupid american sh!t.


I also think that is more the problem. Hell, nearly half the country is a bunch of paranoiacs who think the world is about to end. The media instills such a high level of anxiety while all sorts of other media point to violence as an answer. What do you think is going to happen?

Guns make violence easy, I don't know that banning them is the answer though. Although, I don't see Americans embracing values that would change this trend either.

It looks like our country turns out its own share of psychopath terrorists.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Norton writes:

"nor could anyone, anyone, be able to buy full military mega clip assault weapons when you and I were growing up"

Until '68, you could buy guns through THE MAIL, Norton. No questions asked.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
way more kids coming from broken families...

Locker, I do not think the evidence shows that. Crime is at historic lows, due in large part to the easy availability of abortion. See Freakonomics, great book.

Many of these mass murders come from good solid families. The Batman guy, obviously mentally ill was successful in his own right, family was very successful. The Oregon shooter was on his way to Maui, WTF? Sadly some sick individuals have found a way to check out and exact some revenge on society for some perceived slight. What drives society crazy is the fact that we can not pass some law to stop it.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
meChrist, I am stealing that. It is a very Good Point.

I myself won't need a gun, I want to kill that bastard with my bare hands. My God I feel so bad for the families involved. All I need to do is look at my son, think of someone hurting him and I start shaking.


Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
Now the count is up to 27 dead

at least 100 rounds heard fired

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:37pm PT
Locker, in the 1950s?

well, that was when I was a kid

even in the 1960s, white kids smoking reefer was a big deal

but yeah, alcohol has always been available
moosedrool

Trad climber
lost, far away from Poland
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
There were so many shootings in the USA that there should be enough data to find the common factor. Does anybody know the outcome of such study?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
22 children injured in Chinese knife attack at elementary school.....

How many mass knife attacks have there been in China in the last twenty years? In a country with a BILLION more people than we have.

Don't give me this bullshit that guns don't have anything to do with it.

Why aren't these guys doing their deeds with paper airplanes 'n' sh#t?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Until '68, you could buy guns through THE MAIL, Norton. No questions asked.


really?

you could buy full military assault weapons 40 years ago

anyone? no background checks?

the military allowed that back then?

ok, if you say so
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1883519/The-Gun-debate-sandbox
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Heard on the early morning news about a mass knife attack, with twenty or so victims by a deranged guy at an elementary school in China that happened yesterday.

Wonder if one event inspired the other.
mitchy

Trad climber
new england
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Who gives sh#t what you could do 40 yrs. ago. 18 kids were killed TODAY.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
My theory? 24 hour news cycle, sensational coverage. The copycat theory is significant. These are people who might have just killed themselves, but now they get motivated to go out with a bang.

If there were more broken families crime would be up across the board. Like I said, crime is way down. These killers do not come from horrific family back grounds.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
It looks like our country turns out its own share of psychopath terrorists.


You mean worse than Benghazi? *gasp*

Better stay on top of this one Ron, lots of dead innocent Americans.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Tragic, no easy answers. Mexico has a very restrictive gun law yet it's no secret how that is working out. Something has to be done I the family front and the mental health care front. I am in agreement with some of the previous posts concerning broken families and the effect it has on our society. I wish people would put as much effort into their family relationships as they do arguing over petty $hit on the interweb.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
A culture of violence.
We train and desensitize our children from a very young age.

Horrible horrible, disgusting.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
All I can say is there is a difference on how we allow bad behavior in this generation than others. Before if a kid hurts your daughter, it was perfectly alright for the father and brothers to make amends. Now... Nothing is really done. If a kid attacks another kid, it isn't a real crime since heck... They are kids. Kids get bullied and grow up into broken individuals and bullies grow up into some real evil folks since no one ever checked their behavior.

I can be wrong about this but.... From my life experience this is what I saw. I grew up with a socialpath. He is now living in jail for the rape and murder of a young girl. Before that he terrorized and did really horrible things in school and since he was nice looking with good grades... No one ever stopped him until he got bigger. In my mind, he needed some big consequences. The bigger the better.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
You mean worse than Benghazi? *gasp*

Better stay on top of this one Ron, lots of dead innocent Americans.

That was too good to not repost. And predictably Ron, you say there's no connection to guns.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
WLM get real, guns are a part of the problem....notice the 23 in China were injured, not killed. The availability of so many guns of all types does not cause the strange twists in the brains of sick people but it certainly facilitates their murderous intent.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
Ron, you couldn't buy military weapons during the great depression.

Crime is at historic lows...
per capita.

God is very patient...

Some say patient, some say lazy, other say absurd. Either way, if it makes you feel better to involve your imaginary friend, so be it, as long as they don't tell you to start buying guns... but most "god fearing Uhmerikuhns" can't seem to live without a few.
NRA Spokesman

climber
Fairfax, VA
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
We have released a position summary in response to this incident.

I have provided it here, in entirety, for your convenience:

Although the incident in Connecticut is regrettable, in no way will will it change the NRA position on the rights of gun owners.

We will continue to care more about our toys than about your children.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
I'm so over the NRA controlling our country...F*#k them, their guns and their backwards way of thinking.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:52pm PT

(Locker... Fathers love their kids just as much. Just Mothers tend to self destruct immediately while Fathers take a little longer. Usually involving alcohol, etc.)
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
You're implying that Mothers love their children more than fathers

No Locker, I didn't take it that way at all. When children are lost we just revert to out gender role. I just saw a father speak about the sense of hopelessness he had knowing his son was at the school. It was heart breaking, luckily his son was safe. Healthy fathers and mothers both love their children to the end of the earth and then beyond. It might be helpful to check out someone's intent before inaccurate conclusions are jumped to. This is a time when we embrace ALL children...

Susan
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Longstick wrote: God is very patient...but when He decides the time has come...His justice and wrath will be unstoppable.


Well f*#k you, the NRA and YOUR god. F*#king retard.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:56pm PT
By the way... My cousin has a machine gun in his living room in Greece. We actually are not allowed to have any military installations close to Turkey as part of a treaty agreement. So... Our government issues weapons to the locals.

No one gets shot on the island. There have not been any mass shootings despite all the economic and political unrest in Greece. What does that say? It obviously points out that gun ownership is not equal to violence.

Something else is happening here and yes... It's extremely ugly.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
I'm so glad Ron doesn't have kids.

No one gets shot on the island.

From my limited time on islands, people seem to be pretty chill... maybe the sense of community that comes from being confined to a small chunk of land. But they drive like sh#t.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
Plus 1 Bobby D. Where was God during the Holocaust? Even bringing up the kind of crap is a gross injustice to the loved ones of the victims.
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
"try to remember news coverage isn't healthy for us or our children"

Yea, lets all keep our head in the sand and our children ignorant of whats going on in the world.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Okay, I promise not to talk like I know you... if you promise not to talk like you know about child psychology and how sensationalized news coverage is good for them.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Why is it we never hear about mass knifings? Or someone who stones a crowd of people?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
Ken, mass knifing in China mentioned up thread. Note the children were INJURED, not killed like those involved in the gun attack in the US.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Exactly Locker! The intent WAS there but knives aren't nearly as efficient as guns to actualize intent.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
Exactly, Jim.

I enjoy shooting now and again (read infrequently), but I'd give up the hobby if doing so helps to prevent this sort of sick and disgusting terrorism.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
Thank you for emphasizing the point. It can't be emphasized enough.

Rather, it will be interesting to see as time passes how many clues there were that this guy was nuts. Clues which went ignored.

Ignored because we blew $1.4 trillion on war while cutting nearly 10% of what we spend ($16 million) on mental health care. Ignored because people care more about their right to buy guns than their neighbor's right to proper medical treatment. Ignored because gun toting religitards are too busy fighting a woman's right to abort an unwanted child (a child that may very well develop mental health issues) than fighting for their ALREADY LIVING neighbor's right to proper mental health care.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
knives aren't nearly as efficient as guns to actualize intent.

Plus it's a lot more personal to go up and knife someone.

Latest report is one of his parents was found dead....ok ... Now it will be blame the parents.

Susan
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Mental illness and easy access to guns is a tragic combination. Both problems need alot more attention. attention usualy equals money and money needs the political will. So call your politicans ask for funding and legislation in both areas. Is there a republican group that is against assault weapons; maybe they could get somewhere against the NRA lobby. I hear most cops are against easily available assault weapons why isn't their voice being heard?
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Some of us gun owners don't belong to the NRA and personally I can't stand the NRA and view them as radical c*#ks@ckers. Guns are the easy scapegoat, but something way bigger is going on. I have no solutions, but feel terrible for all those involved.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
"How did god decide which children should live and which should die today?


Are you kidding? God's power is so humongous and terrible and unknowable he just does this sh#t while he's making his toast in the morning.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
Is God an NRA member?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
This is obviously the fault of the NRA, this country's first civil rights organization.

It could not possibly be the result of a culture that so loves violence that if you show a tit in a movie it will be rated X, but if you hack it off then it is only rated R.
It couldn't be a result of a culture that substitutes video games and tv for sound parenting and loving attention.

Must have been the presence of the tool, a complex device that nobody could manufacture for themselves in their garage,..
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
Must have been the presence of the tool, a complex device that nobody could manufacture for themselves in their garage,..


Well a nice big bomb can be made in your garage, but there aren't many of those going off in malls or schools yet.

Maybe it's easier to get the guns than to build a bomb in your garage?
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Latest report is one of his parents was found dead

yeah, I heard that is was the shooters' mother. also heard that the shooter was twenty years old.

as an aside, I think camo outfits should be outlawed.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
Ron, STFU.

Isolated incidents of violence are far different than what we are discussing right now.

Why do you always have to be an ass?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
You'd think that after events like this the gun nuts would even agree it may be time to try something drastic. Can you really love your "tools" that much?
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
Sheltering a child from violence... I am calling B.S. on that since my parents "GREW UP IN A WAR ZONE." They saw kids shot, people starved, horrible acts such as folks steeling for survival from their elders and... Seeing the victims of that theft die as a result. They were not homicidal maniacs because they saw such horrible stuff. They were the nicest, most moral, generous people I ever knew. Explain That!!!!

Now how can you shelter or not shelter a child? I sure as heck am not going to keep tragic news away from Aris. I think that is stupid since he will see it, he will be exposed to it "somewhere/somehow." What I am going to do is talk to him about it. Ask him what he thinks, have a discussion. Might as well teach him some coping skills and a few moral lessons while at it.

Just because life is harsh does not excuse bad behavior.

The whole gun debate isn't good either. We are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Violent video games.

24 hour media coverage.

Hands off parenting.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Locker were not talking about that tool, or are we?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
By isolated I mean individual rather than mass.

Big difference.

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:33pm PT
I am reposting this because I really think this is the real issue.


The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???

People are getting sick and no one is noticing or... Helping... That needs to change BIG TIME. We are social animals. We need each other.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/26/opinion/an-arms-race-we-cant-win.html?_r=1&

This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working.

Anastasia, I think that harkens back to the fact that everyone is trying to keep up with the Joneses(busting their asses to make money), instead of talking to the Joneses
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Anastasia, not saying shelter them from the facts... shelter them from the 24 hour sensationalized bullshit coverage. Seeing someone die is one thing. I've held 2 people as they took their last breath... it is a very real, very visceral experience. Seeing the sensationalized account played over and over and over and over with conjecture and speculation and drama and blah blah blah blah is an entirely different thing. I imagine your parent's attitude reflects the deep experience they had more than the fact that they witnessed people dying. You can't have that experience from sensationalized TV coverage, it only desensitizes.
QITNL

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
We have a COWARD problem. Whether we're talking mass-murder or street violence, these acts are committed by COWARDS. COWARDS with guns.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
Sheltering a child from violence... I am calling B.S. on that since my parents "GREW UP IN A WAR ZONE." They saw kids shot, people starved, horrible acts such as folks steeling for survival from their elders and... Seeing the victims of that theft die as a result. They were not homicidal maniacs because they saw such horrible stuff. They were the nicest, most moral, generous people I ever knew. Explain That!!!!


I think the difference is that they saw it FOR REAL. They had to witness what really happens to real people. There is a big difference between personal experience and impersonal. I'm not a zealot about video games but as my son was growing up I was rather stunned about the level of disgusting impersonal violence in games I thought were supposed to have minimal stuff in it. The ones with warnings must be horrific.

It's terribly complex with no easy answers....and lamenting about what once was is no answer.

Susan
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Guns aren't evil.. they just make it easier.
news in and of itself isn't evil.. but how its played over and over with the intent to create fear/anxiety is evil. Exposure isn't a simple thing. It isn't simply that if one sees violence, then one will become violent and if one doesn't see or experience violence then one doesn't become violent. There is much more to it.

I believe that one of the bigger drivers in our country of these events is our glorification of violence. You see it in video games, in tv shows, in movies,, in books, in magazines, even in commercials. Everywhere you turn, there is glorification of violence. I believe that this is different then respect for ones ability to defend oneself. Respect is different then glorification. Respect is tempered with humility.

The thing about this issue is that there isn't just one driver. There are many.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
Anastasia wrote: The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue.


You have a right to your opinion...There is a gun problem in this country. you don't need a AK to kill a deer.

I agree with your other points...this country is really messed up socially.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Violent video games.

24 hour media coverage.

Hands off parenting.

I'd reverse the order.

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Folks that need to do great violence to people they don't even know are incredible cowards. Mostly are afraid of life, blame the world for their troubles, their situation.

Brave men can face themselves and know... If there is a problem, it starts with them and they have no desire to blame someone else. They can handle life. Instead they don't look for the source of difficulties to find the blame, instead they simply conquer them.

I grew up with a brave man. My father was something else.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
"We have a COWARD problem. Whether we're talking mass-murder or street violence, these acts are committed by COWARDS. COWARDS with guns."...

I find that a ridiculous statement and one that is false...

why is that locker?
we don't know how the shooter died in this incident, but in most of these cases, these folks kill themselves because they don't want to face the consequences

Brandon, re your link. it seems in all those other countries, there is a war or threat of war scenario. in that situation, guns for self defense are probably a necessity
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
I'd reverse the order.

I'd agree with that.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Brandon, we need all those guns to keep us safe. Don't ya know
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
We have a COWARD problem. Whether we're talking mass-murder or street violence, these acts are committed by COWARDS. COWARDS with guns.

That's silly. The shooter undoubtedly had mental issues but why use the word "coward?" To go in and start killing until they stop you almost always ends with a dead shooter.

They kept calling the 9-11 highjackers "Cowards" as well, apparently just because "Coward" is an insulting word, as suicide missions are crazy in many more ways than cowardly

So see a movie these days. I doubted the number of depicted killings in any theater is less than a few dozen on any given day

Peace

Karl
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
First and foremost, my thoughts and prayers are with all those involved in such a senseless, horrific tragedy.

Secondly, I believe t*r is correct in what she has posted here....our children need to be spared this horror...I know if my eight-year old were to hear of the details of this event, it would severely traumatize her. We need to hug our kids, love on them, and if and when they do hear of this event, we need to carefully nurture them through it, ideally sparing them the details that could haunt them.

I believe our failing values is at the root of what causes people to go off like this shooter did today. That our society has embraced violence in SO many areas is appalling. It is the duty of a PARENT to do exactly that...PARENT their children. This means making good decisions in what one allows their children to participate in....from watching violent videos and movies, TV, and those awful video games that glorify violence as a means of solving one's problems.

Broken homes are a factor here as well.....we have SO many fathers not involved in their kid's lives....and the anger caused by divorce gets transferred to children who are not getting the help they need to deal with it. Their access to scenes of violence on a daily basis has become their "parent". With this breakdown of the family/parenting unit, how can we not expect to see things like this happen?

We are creatures of our surroundings.....surround a child with love and communication, you are likely to teach that child to do likewise. Soak that child in anger, pain and violence, and they will live it out.

Many here blame guns....clearly a knee-jerk reaction. When you look at how many guns are in private hands in this country, if it were a gun problem, we would have far more deaths than we do.

This is a SOCIETY problem....and ours is a society in freefall in terms of moral responsibility.

Training a child in the way they should go requires a deep committment on the parents. Allowing today's forms of media to raise our kids will only lead to more days like today.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
I don't see why those gun-toting psychos don't just go fukk off.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
we don't know how the shooter died in this incident...

OMG, I'm going to have to turn on the TV and stay glued until they find out. I can't wait to know... I need to know... OMG, how did it all end? I can go on until I find out... oh the suspense!

Anastasia, ^^^ THAT is what your parents were NOT exposed to.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
I'm going to give up here, because I can't even follow the twists in that logic.

Kos, go to Peshawar and watch them make a machine gun out of used truck parts in an outdoor stall.

The genie is out of the bottle and you can't legislate it back in.
Yes, we need more love. That will fix it. Let's pass some legislation mandating more love
although that is the liberal's answer to everything.
QITNL

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
Cowardice is a trait wherein fear and excess self-concern override what is socially deemed as right and courageous action.

Any man who shoots another un-armed man in cold blood is a COWARD.

Yeah, it's an insult.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
Dean, IMO, it's both parenting and accessibility to firearms.

Kind of a perfect storm of terrible.
QITNL

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
No problem, Locker, we can agree to disagree. Kumbaya.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
you don't need a AK to kill a deer.

I agree with your other points...this country is really messed up socially.

+1
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
This is a SOCIETY problem....and ours is a society in freefall in terms of moral responsibility.

If this is the root problem then please explain the record low rate of crime in America, including murder.
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
although that is the liberal's answer to everything.

you complain of over simplification, and yet resort to it. I know that one can't legislate this problem out of existence, but one can perhaps moderate it. Just because some people can build machine guns doesn't mean that every crazy person will. Most likely most won't, because they just won't have the mechanical ability to. So reducing access ( if that really is possible, and I don't' fully believe that it is ) could possibly reduce this problem. there is a difference between reducing and eliminating a problem.

Gun control is simply a method of reducing access. It will not eliminate the problem.
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Wow 28 dead- that's almost as bad as say A HALF MILLION dead civilians in Iraq.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
The main difference I see between my generation and this new one is that there are way more kids coming from broken families...

We had the same drugs, same mental illnesses, same weapons, etc...

Otherwise, what the hell is so different NOW, that has this kind of sh!t is happening so often and by so many???...

Haven't read the whole thread.

Probably multiple contributors.

Several generations of broken families and modern stresses probably has simply changed the "average" person's ability to deal, their sense of community & safety net, their morals and their aversion to resulting to violence.

I'm just taking a guess. There was no road rage 20 years ago, either. The world society in general feels a lot more angry / hot-tempered now.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Just to reiterate Brandon's point for those who didn't click the link:

The good, the bad, and the just plain ignorant...
The good, the bad, and the just plain ignorant...
Credit: healyje
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
probably a gun nut.....


Left says sensible gun laws
Right says those kids should have been armed....


Damn shame all the way around
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Seriously, the people that are harping about "accessibility" of guns, how would you address that without compromising the rights of responsible citizens?

And please don't start spewing folk tales about imaginary "gun show loopholes".




kennyt thinks he is being facetious but the truth is garage builds ARE possible.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
although that is the liberal's answer to everything

Yeah, and if the shooter didn't have easy access to guns he could have made a machine gun in his garage from chevy parts.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
Locker has posited that this shooter, along with so many others we have seen, are "mentally ill".

I do not believe that is likely the case all the time. In fact, more often than not, I do not believe these people are suffering any kind of mental illness.

What I believe they are suffering from is social irresponsibility. They are products of a society that sinking into the mire in SO many areas....and they are acting out the junk they watch on the screen.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
You DON'T think someone who kills children is mentally ill? You are a F------ MORON!

Charles
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
Ditto to Cragman.

This was a back edit to my earlier post:

There was no road rage 20 years ago, either. The world society in general feels a lot more angry / hot-tempered now.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
You DON'T think someone who kills children is mentally ill? You are a F------ MORON!

He's probably using a more classic definition of "mental illness".

"mentally disturbed" and "f*#ked in the head" don't mean "mentally ill" in the classic sense.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Actually Kos, I'm a libertarian who hates Fox News as much as CNBC.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
socialclimber, your reaction to my post is a PERFECT example of our society, and how SO MANY in our society solve their problems. You chose to call me an ugly name....this guy today chose to solve his problems with a gun.

People are products of the morals they were taught. You have proved my point.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
ok, if a "liberal" response is to "do something about the problem"


then guilty

but also true is a "conservative" response is to do "nothing" about the problem

and then bleat and moan about their "rights" being "threatened"

which is better, do something or do nothing?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
although that is the liberal's answer to everything.

Surely more hate and guns are a much better answer Toker?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Hooooo eeeee!

Looks like the L word has really got some people up in arms!



survival,
you read my original post?
I don't blame the tool but rather the lack of guidance, i.e. loving parenting.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
Ron: how would you address that without compromising the rights of responsible citizens?

I personally wouldn't worry about it - I'd savagely abridge and severely restrict any such 'rights'.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Looks like the L word has really got some people up in arms!


Well what the fuk do you expect man?

Like conservatives and regressives somehow have a deeper understanding of love and guns? WTF?
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Do you guys really think that if guns were banned, they'd disappear and no more shootings would happen? I'd gladly give up my arms if this were the case, but I don't think it would help. The War on Drugs and Prohibition are two examples of what I'm getting at. The Black Market would supply the psychos who would do these things and The War on Guns won't change anything.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
A couple of points from this middle-aged Canadian mother.

My heart & soul goes out to the families and friends of the victims.

I'm glad the shooter is dead.

Gun control is well-embraced in Canada and yet the wrong people still manage to get guns.

I don't agree that our society is reaching some high-water mark of violence in the world. This is not to negate the horror of this most recent event; but to say that ours is the most violent society is wrong. I believe humankind has always been horribly inclined to violence; witness the crucifixion of some 5,000 men along the road to Rome around 45 BC during the slave revolt led by Spartacus *I am only going on memory here.
The clashes that occurred between the tribespeople of Germania and the Roman legions were hideous.
Lest we forget the horrors of WW2 and the multi-millions of dead in the mid-20th c.

I think the media are really selling fear with their reporting of this event.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
A president and a nation weeps.


Susan
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
Locker has posited that this shooter, along with so many others we have seen, are "mentally ill".

I do not believe that is likely the case all the time. In fact, more often than not, I do not believe these people are suffering any kind of mental illness.

Cragman, you are correct
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Its now being reported that there was only one shooter, and he is dead.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
Liberal...Conservative...blah blah blah. We need a real solution to identify and help these folks that are clearly troubled. Seems like the legal system is not adequate to handle mentally troubled individuals. I wish banning guns was a real solution but as we have seen with ilegal drugs, they are real hard to get because they are illegal...right? Gun prohibition would only make the thugs rich and create a whole new level of violence. Extremo left will argue to ban it/more laws, Extremo righty will want fully auto weapons to be available at the local convenience store.
Sad day in America for sure.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
That sick fuk killed his mother who was a teacher at the school and somone in his parents house.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
What I see in this thread is the focus nearly consistently being framed at a fractious discussion our media has been seeding us with for several years - the right to bear arms vs the responsibility which comes with that right.

So very few focused on the horror the people went through, the overwhelming loss so many families and friends are going through. Instead we are intent on a verbal battle neither side can win.

How about a moment of thought for the pain so many have just had foisted upon them, that they find some small comfort in the kindness of a neighbor at this time. And that we take some moment out of our day today to be that type of kind neighbor to those around us.

"Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me." If we can all live by that mindset - we WILL see change.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
You get a person enraged enough for whatever reason, you can see them become violent. Look what happened in Michigan the other night with the Union crowds.

As times get more desperate, you will see more and MORE of this kind of event.

Sure, there are too many mentally ill people out there that do these kinds of acts.....but again, you push someone hard enough...someone raised on a good dose of violent media....they will respond in kind.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
What Tami says about guns being controlled in Canada but people getting guns is interesting. We have Switzerland, a land full of automatic rifles with nothing like this, contrasted with Mexico, a land of gun control yet paradoxically full of gun violence. I think Anastasia is onto something I've not considered before.

"The whole gun debate is distracting, we are avoiding the real issue. We as a nation are suffering because we lack a proper social structure. We don't have town squares, a place where people can connect to those living around them. This whole individual bubble isolation isn't working. We need to fix how we relate, be a real neighborhood instead of just people sharing a street and never talking to each other. Seriously folks, isn't it obvious???

People are getting sick and no one is noticing or... Helping... That needs to change BIG TIME. We are social animals. We need each other."
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
the mental illness issue is a real issue, but I believe some here are mincing words. There are clinical definitions for certain forms of mental illness. I don't know if every school shooter to date has been diagnosed with some form of mental illness, though I believe that many have. I believe what some are saying is that you would have to be crazy to want to do this kind of thing, even though that person may not fit into some clinical definition of insanity or mental illness.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
There is always a limit to the right to bear arms. You can't own chemical weapons, bombs or an rocket propelled grenade

I don't see much self-defense or hunting reason to allow 100 clip magazines. I doubt much of a black market would exist for such things (compared to drugs) but at least if they were illegal the police would have a law to attach to people found with illegal clips

Peace

Karl
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
Good on Mr. Obama for an hearfelt, appropriate response.
Enty

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
Do you guys really think that if guns were banned, they'd disappear and no more shootings would happen? I'd gladly give up my arms if this were the case, but I don't think it would help.

No they wouldn't disappear but the mass shootings might just happen like they do in the UK - once every 10 - 15 years and not every 6 months. The fact that our shooters don't have easy access to weapons that can fire a thousand rounds a minute probably helps too.


E
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
And yes.. its harder then one would think to get mental health help in this country. Easy in some ways, more difficult then one would realize in others.

For instance, in Mariposa county, if you are poor and are having problems with depression, you get sent to group counseling. Group counseling has been shown to be helpful to some degree, but there are loads of people that it doesn't help. The county has decided that it gives the most bang for the buck, and there is a lack of funds, so that is what is offered. You can get individual counseling, but that is harder to get. More hoops to jump through isn't something that someone who is dealing with depression can always deal with.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
Mexico also has a very corrupt government, brought to you in part by NAFTA and the destruction of the rural way of life in Mexico in favor of corporate profits from moving US companies down there for cheap labor. Uhmerikuh, fuk yeah!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Cragman wrote: Good on Mr. Obama for an hearfelt, appropriate response.


Isn't he President Obama!!
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
This world simply needs more love.
jstan

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Many potential "causes" have been discussed. Most worrisome of all is the observation that these events are happening with increasing regularity. It would seem we are increasingly unable to maintain civil order.

Our society will be changed.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
Bob, I called him Mr. Obama because I felt his response was one of a FATHER..which I VERY much appreciated.

Sorry if my remarks offended you.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
The political bickering is lost on me...especially in a time like this. Time to log out.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
I lived in CT most of my life. Two of my children live there, and 40 of my 45 first cousins live there. My sister works two miles from the Sandy Hook School. She is frantically trying to find her friends' kids. You can't imagine how difficult it is for the parents of 700 kids to get to a school in a quiet two lane road. The scene is overwhelming. She spoke to a cop that was quite shaken from seeing a pile of children's bodies.

This may be another mass shooting to many people. To me, this is a very personal tragedy. While part of me is relieved to see that probably my children, nieces, nephews, cousins are OK. How can you be truly happy when this has affected so many people we know directly? and to know that the victims are overwhelmingly kids? and these little kids rarely have a concept of death but now have been so brutually introduced?

I am so sorry for this tragedy. I hate to see their tragedy be used as political fodder in the never ending political tug of war. They have been victimized enough.

My Nutmeg State, My Constitution State - I love you. This is another big hurt so soon after Irene and Sandy. I can't wait to go home again next year.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
Cragman wrote: You get a person enraged enough for whatever reason, you can see them become violent. Look what happened in Michigan the other night with the Union crowds.

As times get more desperate, you will see more and MORE of this kind of event.


Yes..this was a daily event in the depression era.


Are you out of your mind??
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
Bob, our society did not have the influences during the depression that it does today.

Can you understand that?
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
The childishness here is not worth it.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
Ronald Reagan did indeed screw this country's mental health programs. But he had his rebuild the military motivation and costs had to be cut. That's why he had Catsup declared a vegetable for school lunch programs. Just imagine how many bullets you can buy from the savings you get depriving children of nourishment and nurturing.




photo not found
Missing photo ID#256792

When we as a Nation are more deeply concerned with securing any individual's right to own any weapon they want whenever and where-ever they want and less about the basic human condition we are condemning ourselves to the chaos of sociopaths.

QITNL

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Best wishes to your family, Seamstress, and anyone else here who may be directly affected by this tragedy.
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Enty, way to quote half of what I said and ignore the rest. Also, you assume that the culture in the UK is the exact same as it is in the US.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Cragman wrote: Bob, our society did not have the influences during the depression that it does today.

Can you understand that?


yes I can...I also understand that saying the world needs "more love" isn't going to change this situation. Start with good parenting, good education, good healthcare and sensible gun laws and we might see less of these crimes in the future.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
Locker writes:

"If the crazy dude accepted Jesus as his savior at the time of death...
he get's a free ride to HEAVEN...
Right???..."


Not with a Permanent Record like this guy has he doesn't.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
Easy, lets get this back on topic. I'm guilty of dragging it down too.

This is a very tragic event. Lets show some respect to those involved by having a civil discussion.

I, for one, was shocked to the core upon hearing this and was posting in real time, as I heard details on the radio. I had a minute to decompress and, well, feel a little more rational now.

I walked over to my grandmas house, gave her a hug, and told her I love her. Therapy.

Maybe I should turn the radio off.

Carry on.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
Sure, there are too many mentally ill people out there that do these kinds of acts.....but again, you push someone hard enough...someone raised on a good dose of violent media....they will respond in kind.

Cragman, Locker doesn't seem to get that.

The Aurora shooter quit school because he wasn't making the grades. It pissed him off
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:51pm PT


"The National Rifle Association goes to great lengths (and spends a huge sum of money) to defend the right to bear arms. It is opposed to virtually every form of gun control, including restrictions on owning assault weapons, background checks for gun owners, and registration of firearms.
NRA’s influence is felt not only through campaign contributions, but through millions of dollars in off-the-books spending on issue ads and the like. Following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the NRA supported proposals to arm airline pilots with guns. Between 2001 and 2010, the NRA spent between $1.5 million and $2.7 million on federal-level lobbying efforts. During the 2010 election cycle, the NRA spent more than $7.2 million on independent expenditures at the federal level -- messages that advocate for or against political candidates. These messages primarily supported Republican candidates or opposed Democratic candidates."
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
Really looking forward to explaining this to my children tonight. I find it really difficult to put any sort of perspective on crap like this. It does not help that I will be walking down
the halls of Columbine HS this and most weekends with my kids as they play games in the gym. I consider myself a good father but really have trouble talking to kids about this sort of insanity.

bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
Six months from now there will be another mass shooting, then another and everyone will say the same things they are saying now. These shootings have become so damn' commonplace we just accept them.
Watch, not a damn' thing will change except we'll start installing more metal detectors at schools. Brilliant.

This nation has a serious problem and we do nothing about it. Maybe because we don't really know the source or what to do?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:53pm PT
Again a time to consider the feelings of the people close to this event.


I'm glad I live in Canada where we have a VERY different attitude towards gun ownership.

Criminals in Canada still manage to get guns ( both hand & long guns ) and this country is NOT without mass shootings ( 6 Dec 1989 in Montreal ) so I'm not saying we're better then you.

I have no idea what America can do to reduce the fear her citizens experience and react to by buying guns.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
10b wrote: Cragman, Locker doesn't seem to get that.

The Aurora shooter quit school because he wasn't making the grades. It pissed him off


Yes and normal mentality stable students go out and kill when they get a failing grade.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 03:59pm PT

In 1991 there were 24,700 murders committed in the U.S.

Over the following 20 years the number of murders in the U.S. has steadily dropped by more than 10,000, to 14,612 in 2011.

At the same time, violent crime stats rose in 2011 for the first time in 20 years. This was driven by a 17% increase in simple and aggravated assaults, as the murder rate continued to drop.

(stats from Christian Science Monitor.)

So to be clear, the series of horrendous mass killings of recent is not part of an overall trend of increased violence in the U.S.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Time for me to get back to work. I can't fix what is wrong. The human impact can easily get lost in the cause celebre. Lots of little kids lost their innocence today. Many parents who toiled hard to move to the suburbs and provide a safe environment for their children found that violence knows no boudaries.

I still remember the impact of the home invasion of the Petit house in Cheshire, CT. All these acts of violence chip away at our souls, make it difficult to treat each other kindly, makes us defensive and change the basic way we treat each other. I remember going home that year for CHristmas to find more relatives actually locking their doors - something we never did before 2007.

We can't turn the clock back to the innocence of the American spirit pre-911. These children will remember this day very profoundly. It isn't one in a string of violent events for them. Their parents did all that they could to provide their kids with the best start in life. Now reality is distorted to the bad side.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
"The National Rifle Association goes to great lengths (and spends a huge sum of money) to defend the right to bear arms

I wonder what Wayne LaPierre would say if his children had been murdered?
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
Why would he answer you locker? What do you hope to accomplish by getting your answer? It seems clear that you think you know the answer, so what do you hope to gain?
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
Thanks for pointing out that the overall murders is lower. In this day of instant news and huge publicity, we can be overwhelmed by the negative.

WML - Home. 13 years away, it is still home. Hope all of your family is safe - but in a state with 169 towns, many of them small, we all feel so closely connected.
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
You are talking on an open forum..

I have a question for you. What do you hope to gain from Dean?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
This world simply needs more love.


+1 Dean.

The incredible gut wrenching deep loss bottomless pit grief happening in those families is beyond most of our comprehension.

Can we find a few things to agree on, please?
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
An answer...

It's WHY I asked a question...

Seems like a lame reason to me and unlikely your real reason.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
Thoughts written by a friend of my cousin. It was about the Colorado shooting but maybe worth sharing:

I know very little but suspect a lot about the universe and life. I do know that no where in the genetic code is a recipe for a man who has so abandoned his soul, that he kills strangers and children under the cloak of night and tear gas. No beautiful infant born is destined to become that man. Yet, such a man exists and such sorrow blankets these Rockies tonight. I know such a man is made, not created.

We could spend hours discussing why he should not have had access to guns, but rather, we should each look at our world and wonder how does a beautiful infantile mound of 6 pounds of flesh, bones, and blood become such a man. How does our world make such a weapon, as he? We can blame so much, but we can only change the parts we control. We can scream about parents, guns, and schools, perhaps rightly so, but if we want to extinguish such eves of loss like tonight, we must each examine ourself and what we add to this fire of rage that should not exist. We each must inspect where we direct the precious piece of the universe's energy we govern.

Each time we begin our day in anger rather than love, we add more to the critical mass that explodes in gunfire and sorrow. Each time we find our day, beliefs, and life more important than others, we add another round to the madman's belt. Each moment where we use the back of another man to raise ourselves, rather than help him stand, we etch another name on a tombstone. We create such violent beings with millions of insults to our collective humanity. We each pull the trigger by creating a world that celebrates violence, stands in awe massacres , and does not take care of those who are hungry, poor, suffering, and in despair.

I know that if we each allow our days to be ruled by love, let compassion be our compass, and connection be our destination then nights like tonight will only be populated by stars, rather than the mourning screams of those left behind.

My heart goes out to those who must make sense of such violence in order to understand the vacancy left in their world today. May we honor those, whose glorious potential will never be realized, by removing hate, anger, and disdain from our lives and thus shift the finite balance of our collective energy towards rapture rather than rage.
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
Can we find a few things to agree on, please?

Sometimes you have to clear the air first before agreements can be reached.
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
Thats cool Locker. I'm glad that you are sincere. I see too many people just wanting a certain answer so that they can attack and make themselves right. Not many just really want to understand.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

Eleven facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
Posted by Ezra Klein on December 14, 2012 at 2:07 pm

When we first collected much of this data, it was after the Aurora, Colo. shootings, and the air was thick with calls to avoid “politicizing” the tragedy. That is code, essentially, for “don’t talk about reforming our gun control laws.”
Let’s be clear: That is a form of politicization. When political actors construct a political argument that threatens political consequences if other political actors pursue a certain political outcome, that is, almost by definition, a politicization of the issue. It’s just a form of politicization favoring those who prefer the status quo to stricter gun control laws.
Since then, there have been more horrible, high-profile shootings. Jovan Belcher, a linebacker for the Kansas City Chiefs, took his girlfriend’s life and then his own. In Oregon, Jacob Tyler Roberts entered a mall holding a semi-automatic rifle and yelling “I am the shooter.” And, in Connecticut, at least 27 are dead — including 18 children — after a man opened fire at Sandy Hook Elementary School.
If roads were collapsing all across the United States, killing dozens of drivers, we would surely see that as a moment to talk about what we could do to keep roads from collapsing. If terrorists were detonating bombs in port after port, you can be sure Congress would be working to upgrade the nation’s security measures. If a plague was ripping through communities, public-health officials would be working feverishly to contain it.
Only with gun violence do we respond to repeated tragedies by saying that mourning is acceptable but discussing how to prevent more tragedies is not. But that’s unacceptable. As others have observed, talking about how to stop mass shootings in the aftermath of a string of mass shootings isn’t “too soon.” It’s much too late.
What follows here isn’t a policy agenda. It’s simply a set of facts — many of which complicate a search for easy answers — that should inform the discussion that we desperately need to have.

1. Shooting sprees are not rare in the United States.
Mother Jones has tracked and mapped every shooting spree in the last three decades. “Since 1982, there have been at least 61 mass murders carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii,” they found. And in most cases, the killers had obtained their weapons legally:

2. Eleven of the 20 worst mass shootings in the last 50 years took place in the United States.
Time has the full list here. In second place is Finland, with two entries.

3. Lots of guns don’t necessarily mean lots of shootings, as you can see in Israel and Switzerland.
As David Lamp writes at Cato, “In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel ‘have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States.’”

4. Of the 11 deadliest shootings in the US, five have happened from 2007 onward.
That doesn’t include Friday’s shooting in Sandy Hook, Connecticut. The AP put the early reported death toll at 27, which would make it the second-deadliest mass shooting in US history.
5. America is an unusually violent country. But we’re not as violent as we used to be.
Kieran Healy, a sociologist at Duke University, made this graph of “deaths due to assault” in the United States and other developed countries. We are a clear outlier.

As Healy writes, “The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.”

6. The South is the most violent region in the United States.
In a subsequent post, Healy drilled further into the numbers and looked at deaths due to assault in different regions of the country. Just as the United States is a clear outlier in the international context, the South is a clear outlier in the national context:

7. Gun ownership in the United States is declining overall.
“For all the attention given to America’s culture of guns, ownership of firearms is at or near all-time lows,” writes political scientist Patrick Egan. The decline is most evident on the General Social Survey, though it also shows up on polling from Gallup, as you can see on this graph:

The bottom line, Egan writes, is that “long-term trends suggest that we are in fact currently experiencing a waning culture of guns and violence in the United States. “

8. More guns tend to mean more homicide.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there’s substantial evidence that indicates more guns means more murders. This holds true whether you’re looking at different countries or different states. Citations here.

9. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

“The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state,” explains Florida. “It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place – assault weapons’ bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements. Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).”

10. Gun control, in general, has not been politically popular.
Since 1990, Gallup has been asking Americans whether they think gun control laws should be stricter. The answer, increasingly, is that they don’t. “The percentage in favor of making the laws governing the sale of firearms ‘more strict’ fell from 78% in 1990 to 62% in 1995, and 51% in 2007,” reports Gallup. “In the most recent reading, Gallup in 2010 found 44% in favor of stricter laws. In fact, in 2009 and again last year, the slight majority said gun laws should either remain the same or be made less strict.”

11. But particular policies to control guns often are.
An August CNN/ORC poll asked respondents whether they favor or oppose a number of specific policies to restrict gun ownership. And when you drill down to that level, many policies, including banning the manufacture and possession of semi-automatic rifles, are popular.

John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
No locker. I am not all knowing. And neither are you. I have seen you get on certain kicks, wanting your answer because you have had a come back ready and really wanted to use it. So I asked.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
Nobody here is suggesting that guns be banned.

I wouldn't have a problem with that

I have no problem with people being allowed to carry a revolver in public for personal protection.

I do

I have no problem with people being allowed to keep a shotgun or bolt-action rifle in their home for personal protection and sport.

I do

But people don't need automatic weapons of any sort, and we don't need huge magazines - those are just toys.

correct

Unfortunately, they are more than toys - they have an effect on people. They give the troubled and disturbed a sense of power. The bigger and badder the gun, the more power they think they have to make things right in a world where they have lost control.

it's called having a small dick

We have the right to protect ourselves, we don't have the right to access the power to kill on a large scale just because some folks favor a particular hobby.

correct

Stop glamorizing the gun, and fewer people will see them as the one power that can solve their problems.

correct
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
This has changed America more than anything since 9-11.
John M

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
To be TOTALLY honest...

It's a little of BOTH on my part...

Thanks for acknowledging that. this is the kind of thing that I meant about the need to clear the air before progress can be made. My best guess is that Dean knew he was being set up, and so what would be the point of walking into an ambush.

Cards on the table is one form of clearing the air.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
I dont cotton to the MENTALLY ILL defense in regards to these types tragedies.

Ron, and I agree on something
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Not my idea, but would keeping the names of the shooters anonymous be a deterrent?

I think it would.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
Mental illness or not...

IMHO if you MURDER, RAPE, MOLEST, HARM, etc...

FUK YOU!!!...

In case of MURDER???...

Mental illness or not???...

FRY!!!...

Locker, now you and I agree
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
Wait a second here... I lived an hour away from the closest Police Station in Michigan. I was a woman, living ALONE. I did not have a gun but the old farmer that was renting the place to me insisted I keep one of his old shotguns over my door. He supplied it, taught me how to use it, etc. He didn't want some stupid fool figuring I was easy pickings.

One night one of the local idiots did show up. When he broke in and found me waiting with the shotgun pointing right at him , he sure ran faster than I though possible. When the police did show up two hours later, they had fun picking his drunk ass up, told him that yes, that shotgun was loaded and... They told his wife about it too. After that people knew I wasn't such an easy target, and when I went into town, they congratulated me with a job well done.

Now I honestly don't need a gun right now in the town I am living in since the Police will show up super fast but in rural areas, or in cities that have a slow police response because of volume, it's dang useful to be armed and dangerous.

Or at least have a descent sized dog... :)

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
but in rural areas, or in cities that have a slow police response because of volume, it's dang useful to be armed and dangerous.

yep
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

Weapons: Of the 139 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and semiautomatic handguns. (See charts below.) Just as Jeffrey Weise used a .40-caliber Glock to massacre students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did James Holmes (along with an AR-15 assault rifle) when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater.



The "If guns are outlawed only Outlaws will have guns" Mantra is nothing but NRA propaganda and hyperbole. It does not need to be so easy to get assault weaponry and high capacity magazines. There is not a single logical reason to have those kinds of weapons in the hands of your average Joe the Plumber. If you choose to believe you need that kind of fire power to protect your life guess what you are all ready dead. Nothing but a souless husk of fear and defeat.

How about this as a compromise; Anyone can get a concealed weapon carry permit provided they are prohibited from wearing clothing.
Mark Sensenbach

climber
CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
guns are bullshit
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
Thank's Ron. That ones been eatin away at me
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
Riley, a culture where we call people names with vulgarity so easily is a big problem. Good job.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
This just in...Cause and Effect?


Supreme Court Justice Scalia said he believes the 2nd Amendment gives the right to own any kind of weapon they can physically carry "on their person", grenade launchers, etc

Oh I so gotta get me sum GrrrrNades I'd feel so safe. 'Cause nuttin says back off like a guy on a bad hair day with a GrrrrNade in one hand and the pin in the other.

GrrrrNades don't kill.
Pulling the pin does.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Until the media stops glorifying the shooter, it will continue to happen. These guys want to be immortalized by the media . Here in Colorado, I see a picture if the Aurora A**wipe just about everyday. They need to not mention their names and stop showing their photos on the news.
We need solutions....not arguments over religion and politics. Sure ban guns but how does the government recover the over 200 million currently owned in the US. Not going to happen.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
How about allowing bullying, allowing folks to mistreat others? Ignoring a person that is visibly mentally ill, just hoping they will go away? Knowing someone is messed up and not attempting to help? How about seeing someone doing a violent act and not intervening? Or seeing someone sick and not assisting? I see this all the time. Even witnessed a guy beating up his girlfriend and everyone just standing there watching. Now that is some weak sauce!

Grow some balls by helping this world get better. Do something that really is harder, takes your time, and makes a real difference. Gun control is only a "part" of the problem. We create more laws and despite them guns will still be easy to get, we just will do it illegally... Plus if that person doesn't have guns, pipe bombs are sure easy to make, there is always poison, etc. The tool is not the real issue, it's the desire to do such harm. I bet there were plenty of signs that this guy was up to this. Plenty and our culture of not interfering, not taking responsibility to reach out and figure they guy out lead to this.


AFS
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
Any change we could simply mourn the dead kindergarteners, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th graders for, oh, maybe 24 hours before resuming this inane bullshit topic that will change no minds and lead nowhere?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
An honest question: How restrictive are Connecticut's firearm laws?

I don't have any info on that, but I don't need any info to know that this is appalling. Sad to say, I doubt that new facts will change many minds on this issue.

John

Edit: Thanks, bvb, for saying what I should have said.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
Guess not.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
Riley,

I challenge you to point out exactly where Anderson was wrong when he wrote:

"an "ar-15" is only called an "assualt" rifle due to its shape and appearence. it is NO different that any semi auto deer rifle or skeewarell shooter out there."


If you can't, then I would suggest you take your own advice and "f*#k off with stupid..."
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
Doesn't the MURDERER get to go to heaven if he repents and accepts Jesus Christ as his savior???...


Pardon me, Locker, ...I know you didn't ask me...but one does not accept Christ with words. He is accepted by obedience to His gospel.

Can a soul that hastens to shed innocent blood be reconciled in obedience after the fact? I think not...the deed being done and irreversible, the slaying of innocents is unforgivable.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
He was only wrong in the appropriateness of the comment and his timing.
Factually correct doesn't equal tactfully appropriate.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
Can a soul that hastens to shed innocent blood be reconciled in obedience after the fact? I think not...the deed being done and irreversible, the slaying of innocents is unforgivable.


I guess the key here is "unforgivable" by whom?


Some folks would say the Jesus would/could forgive a true repentant.

micronut

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
Well said Bob. Sad day. We live in a broken world yall. Outlawing guns, making knives illegal, making dirty bombs against the law. None of it will change the selfish, angry, lonely human condition.


The problems of "life in the USA" isn't the problem, thinking so is a good way to spend your life unhappy. If you think Republicans are the problem....if you think Democrats are the problem......well, good luck with that.


There is an answer, and a solution to man's inate depravity. All men know what it is, if they are willing to admit how broken we all really are.

Sad day indeed. My deepest condolences for all and any involved.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
I challenge you to point out exactly where Anderson was wrong when he wrote:

"an "ar-15" is only called an "assualt" rifle due to its shape and appearence. it is NO different that any semi auto deer rifle or skeewarell shooter out there."


If you can't, then I would suggest you take your own advice and "f*#k off with stupid..."


The hunting rifles I grew up with required cycling the next round manually with a bolt.

They didn't "semi-automatically" cycle the next round themselves.

There's a difference.

Edit: Some of you seem to be confused between "hunting" and "semi-auto".

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
There is an answer, and a solution to man's inate depravity. All men know what it is, if they are willing to admit how broken we all really are.

suicide?
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
People who use semi-auto for deer and skewerrel can't phukking shoot straight.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
That's about the level of response I expected from you.

You probably should take that advice you were handing out.
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
Riley, I know you are never afraid to say freely what you believe and I'm fine with that. I just saw it funny that you were quick to say that blood is on those who support guns, while being so hostile in your post. It's a far bigger issue than gun control and blaming the opposite wing for these situations does nothing. I'm sure this is where you call me a pussy, and that's fine, not into long arguments on forums and don't hold a grudge. Cheers.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
well said micronut.....how do we stop this?reasonable solutions,theorys,etc.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
Pretty f*#king sad day when even the neanderthals in the House and Senate can shut the f*#k up for five minutes and leave the bullshit for another day, but the supertopo "community" is off to the races before the last dead kids body is cold. For today, anyway, this place has no class whatsof*#king ever. Why don't you all just step away from the f*#king keyboard for five minutes and look in the f*#king mirror.
Snowmassguy

Trad climber
Calirado
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
Why are these nut jobs doing this....we need to get to the root of the problem. Many argue guns but our world is full of guns that can never be recovered. My opinion is these guys do it to live in infamy. They need to go bigger every time to shock the world. Personally, I think we need to go Black Hawk Down on these shooters and string them up and let the victims take turns beating their corpse. Sounds sick but I honestly believe they do this because they will be the focus of media attention until the next whacko shoots up the crowd. Media needs to stop showing pic and using shooters name. I had to unfollow a local news station on FB because every time I open up FB, it seems the Aurora j***off is staring at me on my computer screen.
Cant wait to see my kids to hug them.
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/winkler-the-nra-used-to-support-gun-control-1.3865217

The founding fathers who wrote the Second Amendment didn't believe the right to keep and bear arms was a libertarian license for anyone to have any gun anywhere he wanted.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
BVB..take your own advice and stop posting.


A link to mass killings and weapons...most were gotten legally.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:31pm PT


This is from Wikipedia about 2010.

The key doesn't come over, but basically the darker the color blue, the more murders.

Murder rate per 100,000 inhabitants most recent year.
0-1
1-2
2-5
5-10
10-20
>20


Anyway, murder is not some phenomenon local to the U.S.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:33pm PT
Can a soul that hastens to shed innocent blood be reconciled in obedience after the fact? I think not...the deed being done and irreversible, the slaying of innocents is unforgivable.

I think you need to qualify that statement. Saul of Tarsus murdered lots of innocents by his own admission. Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to pardon him?

Frankly, right now I'd rather not talk gun policy or theology, but I know of no other cure for human frailty (and no, Norton, it's not suicide).

One thing I do know, however, is that a whole bunch of innocents are dead because of a very depraved act.

John
10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
People here are reacting...

It's "normal"...

+1

Locker, that's two times now
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
Credit: Bob D'A
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Am I supposed to be surprised?

This is America afterall.

The country that sucks at healthcare, sucks at education, sucks at basic human civility - but we can sure bomb the crap out out of your country.

Let's face facts - we LOVE violence like no other place on Earth.

Video games - shoot 'em ups.
Primetime TV shows - shoot 'em ups.
Movies - explosions and shoot 'em ups.
Wars - we can't go a decade without shooting someone up.

Our entire culture glorifies shooting people and then we are supposed to act shocked when someone does this?

Werner is right - we ARE stupid.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
We are a culture of hate and violence...maybe it is the time for some self reflection and getting to core of our social issues in this country instead of always claiming we are the "greatest".
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
Sorry to offend some- but I HATE video games!!!

I may sound simplistic, but before I retired from teaching, I saw in other classrooms--not mine, kids virtually addicted to violent video games.

The teacher next to my classroom, who eventually was fired, condoned the bright idea of allowing kids to goof off on the computer, every day.

His class became known as an area where kids could play video games all day.

Guess what--the most popular games were the gory violent type.

My observation indicates a much more serious problem, which I really don't have the answer for.

I personally love my single shot rifles, but I never had much use for semi-automatic guns.

The problem here is much more serious than guns and video games. I never heard of such tragedies when I was growing up.
I worry for my grandchildren--where are we headed?
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:48pm PT
Bob - I'd like to think that one day this country would reflect on a different state of being. But I fear that we still have too many citizens willing to raise their foam "We're Number 1" finger to the sky.

As long as we continue to raise kids saturated from birth with violence - be it real or imagined - we will never evolve beyond the bomb throwing, bullet shooting monkeys that we are.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
The conservatives want to ban "weed" "sex" "condoms"... but not assault weapons.


WTF is wrong with them???
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
It is oh so boringly predictable; the self-appointed expert on firearms;



You don't need a semi-auto to hunt deer. If you don't get it on the first shot, BFD. It's called sport.

No civilian needs a semi-automatic or automatic weapon for anything.


Self-defense wouldn't be "sporting" if you didn't give the robber/rapist a chance.
this just in

climber
north fork
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
The media acts like this is such a tragedy and horrible thing, yet they love the ratings and how many are glued to their networks. Yeah we live in a violent society.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#278346

"Tyranny of Dogma alive and well".
micronut

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Dave,

A little bit of both. I agree with you. Action matters. Action helps, but it does not cure the root of the problem. Would you agree?

Your cavity analogy. I fix it. But your analogy isn't sufficient for say, cancer. You can treat it, but there is time to get to know the human when all else fails and treat the soul. But this madness, this horror, is like cancer. Sometimes the "fix" goes deeper than a policy or a law.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:01pm PT
My response to that cartoon;


Stalin
Mao
Hitler
micronut

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Riley,

I hear ya. But being raised in a different country might not make this all better for you. Think of the mass shooting in scandanavia last year.

I'm sorry this is hittin' you so hard man, your anger is good if you channel it into something productive. Not so if it consumes you. There is a bigger picture here concerning the nature of humanity. That's all I'm saying.
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
I am not a gun owner. Nor do I believe in further gun control to solve an apparent problem with our society. I DO however think people need to discuss the power of video games. Here is a list of the top 10 that kids across the country are absorbing with fervor. These games have become IMO a big factor in desensitizing the moral value of human life. Even the military has both recognized and capitalized on this concept. Now days, we have many latchkey kids with a surrogate parent....the xbox.

http://www.cnet.com/1990-11136_1-6310088-1.html

The ONLY playstation of worth.
The ONLY playstation of worth.
Credit: Sparky
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
The largest school killing in US history was not committed with a gun.

Bath, Michigan
May 18, 1927

By far the worst school massacre in US history took place in the tiny town of Bath, Michigan in 1927. There, an angry school board member named Andrew Kehoe blew up the town’s school, killing 45 and wounding 58. Most of the victims were kindergarten through sixth grade students. A secondary explosion killed Kehoe and the school Superintendent.

Also we here in the US are not alone is these horrible incidents...

April 26, 2002
Erfurt Germany

A former student kills 18, including himself at a school in eastern Germany.

March 13, 1996
Dunblane, Scotland

And of course we cannot forget Norway.


Peace to the dead and the bereaved families and friends.


Edit: Phil you need to add a third panel to that cartoon, the # of Americans (myself included) who have protected themselves from a violent end with their legally owned firearm.
cmcc

Trad climber
Hood River, OR
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Excerpt from a book titled Hurt

"I'll tell you why I don't trust anyone at this school or my parents. Everybody is out for themselves. Teachers, coaches, parents, even my church group leaders - they are all out for themselves. Nobody gives a (expletive) about me! Nobody!"
- a sixteen year old girl following a presentation on trust

This statement is representative of hundreds of comments I heard from a wide variety of midadolescents. The issue of trust for this population is not whether they can be trusted but whether they feel safe enough to trust an adult. Many mid adolescents feel that adults are more concerned with their own agendas than with the needs of adolescents, and therefore, they cannot be trusted.

my own words now...
All this gun talk seems to be a lot of finger pointing.
Tragedies like this remind me about the cry that is inside our young people for authentic and meaningful relationships. It challenges me to be put down my agenda. When I do I am a better friend, capable of being a listener and encourager of someone else's dreams. Maybe in the midst of caring for our youth this rage and hurt can be diffused, maybe healed.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Anyway, murder is not some phenomenon local to the U.S.

No, but mass shootings of innocent people at schools, malls, etc seems to be pretty well concentrated here.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Ron, there is visible smoke coming out of NRA headquarters, there spin doctors are experiencing cerebral overload.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Philo writes:

"Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment."


That's one reason they were successful in killing so many of their own citizens. You can't do that to an armed populace.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
yeah

if those third graders would only have been allowed guns they would have stopped this
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
I've had 3... or were it 4... guns pointed at me. Every time I thought "what a fuking piece of sh#t, pointing a gun at a teenager for [skating near their house, mooning their car, swearing in a record store, fuking their granddaughter]..."

Couldn't even deal with the situation without pulling a gun... talk about pussies.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
[quote]Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.[/quote

That is what I like about you philo, your amazing ability at understatement.
(right down to your not thanking a guy for a quarter grand for your pain in the neck)
;-)
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Stalin, Mao and Hitler had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment.
The left side of the tally on Phile-ho's cartoon (his favored mode of "analysis") should read "Tyrant's Established" (although we could be flirting with that now).


HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Toker quipped
Self-defense wouldn't be "sporting" if you didn't give the robber/rapist a chance.

I, too, live in a Charles Bronson fantasy most of the time.


By gun-nut logic the perpetrator of this massacre was helping make America safer until he shot his roomie and hopped in the car to head to the school. Guns did not to decide to kill all those kids...


...but man did they make it a hell of a lot easier.

America needs to stop giving in to the paranoid anti-gov't idiots who live in trailers in the middle of the desert. People have a right to own firearms. They don't have a right to stockpile arsenals without someone taking notice. The "well gee we are helpless to track these people unless they have a record" excuse-makers are idiots. Let's stop acting helpless already. 3,000 people died on 9/11 and now I can't send a text message without the NSA reading it. 30,000 people die every year to firearms but I'm supposed to just shrug it off because the evil government would have to learn how many guns I owned to start doing something about it. If more guns really = less crime then how come so many motherf*#kers in this country keep getting killed?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:20pm PT
Ron: My response to that cartoon: Stalin, Mao, Hitler

Ron, get real, your guns are less than zero impediment to US government assuming broad powers if the wrong folks got in control.

It ain't rocket science, clear society of two thirds of the weapons currently in circulation, dramatically curb the right to posses weapons, and institute rigorous oversight of weapons which remain lawful.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
Just heard a piece on NPR about the profiling of mass shooters, and the perception of an increase in mass shootings over the years. The interviewee said that in spite of perception, the number of such shootings in the US hasn't changed much over the years. (Not sure exactly what his definition of 'mass shooting' is, but his numbers were in the range of ~20/year.)

I suppose that's tragically interesting and oddly comforting (poor word, I know) to know such shootings are not dramatically increasing, but I'd sure like to see public attitude become more invested in seeing those numbers go down as years go on, and not simply write them off as some kind of ghastly status quo.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
Here's a list of shootings from U.S. and around the world. Regrettable wherever it happens, but not confined to the U.S.

•July 20, 2012: At least 14 people are killed when a gunman enters an Aurora, Colo., movie theater, releases a canister of gas and then opens fire during opening night of the Batman movie “The Dark Knight Rises.”
•July 22, 2011: At least 80 people are killed at a summer camp on the Norwegian island of Utoya. A man arrested also is suspected in a blast earlier the same day in downtown Oslo that killed seven.
•April 30, 2009: Farda Gadyrov, 29, enters the prestigious Azerbaijan State Oil Academy in the capital, Baku, armed with an automatic pistol and clips. He kills 12 people before killing himself as police close in.
•March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people — including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff’s deputy — across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.
•Sept. 23, 2008: Matti Saari, 22, walks into a vocational college in Kauhajoki, Finland, and opens fire, killing 10 people and burning their bodies with firebombs before shooting himself fatally in the head.
•Nov. 7, 2007: After revealing plans for his attack in YouTube postings, 18-year-old Pekka-Eric Auvinen fires kills eight people at his high school in Tuusula, Finland.
•April 16, 2007: Seung-Hui Cho, 23, kills 32 people and himself on Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg, Va.
•April 26, 2002: Robert Steinhaeuser, 19, who had been expelled from school in Erfurt, Germany, kills 13 teachers, two former classmates and policeman, before committing suicide.
•April 20, 1999: Students Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, opened fire at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 classmates and a teacher and wounding 26 others before killing themselves in the school’s library.
•April 28, 1996: Martin Bryant, 29, bursts into cafeteria in seaside resort of Port Arthur in Tasmania, Australia, shooting 20 people to death. Driving away, he kills 15 others. He was captured and imprisoned.
•March 13, 1996: Thomas Hamilton, 43, kills 16 kindergarten children and their teacher in elementary school in Dunblane, Scotland, and then kills himself.
•Oct. 16, 1991: A deadly shooting rampage took place in Killeen, Texas, as George Hennard opened fire at a Luby’s Cafeteria, killing 23 people before taking his own life. 20 others were wounded in the attack.
•June 18, 1990: James Edward Pough shoots people at random in a General Motors Acceptance Corp. office in Jacksonville, Fla., killing 10 and wounding four, before killing himself.
•Dec. 6, 1989: Marc Lepine, 25, bursts into Montreal’s Ecole Polytechnique college, shooting at women he encounters, killing nine and then himself.
•Aug. 19, 1987: Michael Ryan, 27, kills 16 people in small market town of Hungerford, England, and then shoots himself dead after being cornered by police.
•July 12, 1976: Edward Charles Allaway, a custodian in the library of California State University, Fullerton, fatally shot seven fellow employees and wounded two others.
•Aug. 20, 1986: Pat Sherrill, 44, a postal worker who was about to be fired, shoots 14 people at a post office in Edmond, Okla. He then kills himself.
•July 18, 1984: James Oliver Huberty, an out-of-work security guard, kills 21 people in a McDonald’s restaurant in San Ysidro, Calif. A police sharpshooter kills Huberty.
•Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas at Austin, killing 16 people and wounding 31.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
RonA, wrong as usual. Mayors and the police actually agree, not disagree, though rightwing, activist supreme court judges agreed they were willing to do a party line, NRA interpretation of the second amendment, but that's about it. But of course, you can't carry in their courtroom.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
The issue is that there WILL always be crazy as#@&%e nutjobs and high capacity weapons and handguns are TOO f*#king easy to get in this country.

Yes drug dealers will get guns no matter what, but having sensible regulations on assault weapons and high capacity clips will help keep them away from the nut jobs. And yes there is a f*#kin difference between a semi-automatic deer rifle and an assault weapon with a 30 f*#kin round clip. If you don't agree explain why to the parents of the 20 children who died today.

The conversation will change at a national level due to this incident and the killing of children. Better stock up on your assault weapons living in fear boys because they are going to become harder to get.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
Hey Dave, let me guess; the following is a list of violent crimes that have left you a victim;





































































Is that about right?
Is a Republican merely a Democrat who has been mugged?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
Apogee as I posted earlier (maybe on the other thread) the number of murders in the US has dropped by 10K in the last 20 years. This is a remarkable statistic especially considering the population growth during the same time.

bergbryce

Mountain climber
California
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Roe v. Wade
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
yep, R v W
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
Mass Shootings in the United States Since 2005

http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/major-shootings.pdf
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Ron said
thats what you think H,, the govt disagrees completely however.


Yeah your guns really deterred the patriot act from assuming wide power. According to you, Obama even "outlawed dissent" (which is why you are in jail instead of sitting on your ass criticizing him in public). I'm not willing to risk my kids' lives to entertain your paranoia any longer.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
Is a Republican merely a Democrat who has been mugged?


um, no

FACT: A Republican President Reagan signed the most "restrictive" gun control laws

FACT: President Obama, a Democrat, has signed into law the most gun right "friendly" legislation in the past 30 years

You don't know your ass from second base


This Democrat carries all the time, it is naive and childish to stereotype people
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Toker quipped
Hey Dave, let me guess; the following is a list of violent crimes that have left you a victim;

I see. So you can only complain about firearm murders if you were killed by a firearm.


Here is a list of US government agencies that were stopped from carrying out their "power grabs" because of citizen owned firearms:


Here is a list of the incidents that Obama thought about doing something but then found it unworkable because he feared clashes with armed citizens:


Here is a total count of the tears shed by gun nuts today before thinking "oh man now this means were going to have to have a firearm argument:"


As far as I can tell the only "freedoms" the NRA has expanded in the last 30 years are the freedoms of firearm manufacturers to make larger profits and the freedom of mass murderers to quietly amass arsenals unnoticed.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
Of course the sheeple and media will focus on the tools at hand...

What we need to figure out is what may be a common root cause of this random homicidal rage. Something has changed, for the worse, in the past 20 years. That's not a long span on time. Meds, GMO foods, chemtrails(jk)...

My vote is on meds. I've personally been witness to psychotropic med induced insanity in otherwise perfectly normal people with normal histories. The recent push on television of these complex and horrifying drugs is sickening. If you think the NRA lobby is anything compared to big pharma companies.. you'd be wrong.

This isn't about guns. It's about where this human will to kill as many strangers as possible comes from often in young people without violent histories. For some reason the last mall shooter really bothered me. 22 and seemed so damn normal from his digital history....

So, we need to disect every killer's medical history. Were there any common meds perscribed? I can't even count how many people I know now on some med "for the winter blues"...

Every one of those medication comes with the "May cause suicide" warnings.

It's not a stretch at all if someone's brain is that fuc#ed by chemicals that suicide is pretty damn close to homicide.

But no... the media will focus on how many bullets he had.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
I am not going to pontificate, I just want to cry for those that lost loved ones. Little children, dead. They did no harm to anybody. My heart goes out to those families.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
Well, Dave, what can I say?

You da man!
(more precisely, you da revolver man. I bet Gerry M is preparing to hand you his crown as we speak.)
Does that mean that arthritic grandma better man up and learn to crank a .38 instead of that cute .25 in her purse?


HDDJ, you become a lawyer? Pretty good at twisting words around.
I guess now that we have the Patriot Act to defend us we might as well just turn in our guns.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
Which state has the least gun deaths?

Which state has the strongest gun control laws?


hint: it's the same state
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
So 28 people are dead, mostly small children, and apparently including the gunman. Plus the wounded. Let's spare a thought - preferably much more than a thought - for the families, friends, and community of the dead and injured. Enough of the usual monotonous yapping, from the pro-gun crowd especially. Have you no hearts?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
I think you need to qualify that statement. Saul of Tarsus murdered lots of innocents by his own admission.


Mr. Eleazarian,
I question whether Saul of Tarsus openly and straightforwardly shed innocent blood. Translations imply he "consented" to Stephen's death by watching over clothes of witnesses while Stephen was stoned. Hardly a valiant deed... but he seems to have been without authority at the time Stephen's martyrdom.

There is very little in Paul's epistles about his past. And his epistles contradict Acts. Some scholars believe his epistles are more reliable than the account in Acts.

The account in Acts says he bound and delivered individuals to prison. Certainly, he admits to willing persecution but I think the passage in Acts 22:4 requires a measure of boldness to imply he was favorably inclined to the shedding of their blood.



Are you saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient to pardon him?

I'm not proposing that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient...I'm suggesting Christ, Who's redeeming blood was shed...and Who accepts or rejects repentances... cannot look upon the willful shedding of innocent blood with the least measure of allowance.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mike-huckabee-school-shooting_n_2303792.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=888105,b=facebook

Mike Huckabee: Newtown Shooting No Surprise, We've 'Systematically Removed God' From Schools

Former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee (R) weighed in on the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn. on Friday, saying the crime was no surprise because we have "systematically removed God" from public schools.

"We ask why there is violence in our schools, but we have systematically removed God from our schools," Huckabee said on Fox News. "Should we be so surprised that schools would become a place of carnage?"

This line of reasoning isn't new for Huckabee.

Speaking about a mass shooting in Aurora, Colo. over the summer, the former GOP presidential candidate claimed that such violent episodes were a function of a nation suffering from the removal of religion from the public sphere.

"We don't have a crime problem, a gun problem or even a violence problem. What we have is a sin problem," Huckabee said on Fox News. "And since we've ordered god out of our schools, and communities, the military and public conversations, you know we really shouldn't act so surprised ... when all hell breaks loose."
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
Anders,
no fair.
When these horrible events occur the anti-gun people come out of the woodwork.
The problem is hate and insanity not guns.

Its like losing your keys in the garage but looking for them in the living room because the light is so much better.

Don't call me insensitive because I'm not wringing my hands to your satisfaction while I defend my freedoms held responsibly.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
Which state has the least gun deaths

I'm curious, which is it? Are you talking per capita?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
Beyond the firearms debate it is a very grief laden event that has happened, something I wouldn't mourn in so alien a sphere to me as a holy roller thread. I don't know what to say in the face of hurt that requires the satisfaction of pain and death from the truly defenseless.

I saw a coworker's children and complimented him on his two cute children today. It's hard for me then to believe children not much older than that are victims of meaningless rage today.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#278357
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
Don't try to argue with the gunnuts. They are insane. And they are mostly all members of the extremist group, the NRA. You can only defeat them at the ballot box.
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
I wonder if F*#kabee prays every night that little kids don't fall victim to such senseless violence. If he doesn't he is a hypocrite and there is blood on his hands. If he does, clearly god isn't listening. This is why I left the priesthood... it is way too easy to twist sh#t to fit whatever lie you want to promote. Religious "reasoning" is despicable.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
Kind of like a photo of Werner on a thread about the kids of firefighters killed on 9/11
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 07:53pm PT
Wow Phil, talk about injecting some serious insanity into the conversation as a way to try to brand your opponents here who share zero with that lunatic.

You guys feel pretty free to sling mud, don't you?

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
How about this from the right wing christian Mike Huckabee.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mike-huckabee-school-shooting_n_2303792.html
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
Right to the real point.



Killer Killed His Parents First

Parents first.

He then went to Connecticut to kill a woman he was involved with somehow -- whether wife or ex-girlfriend -- and also to kill all the children near her.

I think we were just talking a few weeks ago about a certain form of intensely narcissistic psychopathy that spurs people to kill everyone close to them rather than just taking the gentleman's way out of suicide. (I don't mean to give a nod towards suicide but if the difference is between killing yourself and murdering your whole family for your failures and inadequacies, let's put in a good word for suicide.)

I've said this before but I think the media can help reduce these things from occurring. These nutters see themselves heroically, sort of as bigger-than-life agents of mayhem and evil. Now that may sound like a bad thing to you, but it doesn't sound bad to them: They've embraced it.

And what Evil is usually described as, in popular mythology, which these guys are not, is potent and capable. Yes, Evil is horrible, but these guys are embracing it for the Power of it. Because they are failures and hopelessly inadequate in their own lives, they contrive a fantasy in which they become Dark Heroes -- larger than life and big as death -- by murdering a lot of people.

Obviously we have a debased value system here. But it does seem to me that that one thing they value and cherish is their self-conception of the Big Scary Man, who you should Take Serious Notice Of because he's Scary and Capable of Anything.

And a lot of media coverage tends to play this angle up. And I don't mean to knock the press too badly on this -- evil sells, and these people are evil.

However, I think it would do at least something to dissuade the next potential mass murderer to know, for example, that coverage on him will not focus on the Evil Menace part of him (which is a self-conception he finds flattering), but the Sad, Lonely Pathetic Guy Who Has a Small Dick and Couldn't Keep a Woman or a Job and Just Couldn't Hack It part of him. The part that's actually much more relevant to his crime -- masterful men do not have to kill people to let the world know "I exist" -- and the party that he's actually afraid of other people knowing about.

If I were the media, I'd allow myself to get very personal in publishing accounts of these guys. Personal, and nasty.

Rest of the article

http://minx.cc/?post=335690
Gene

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
How about this?

Before the extent of the carnage was known, we split ourselves into pro- and anti-gun and started screaming at each other. How about a moratorium on the politics of division and lets collectively and individually get off our soap boxes? Maybe a day or two of gun debate silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today? Maybe join together and reflect on the loss of so many innocents? We can get ugly with each other about guns later. Go light a candle and cherish its light.

g
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
Thanks' Gene
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
I pray for the children, the parents and all of US.

Pure evil takes a human form.

No words can express my feelings.
xtrmecat

Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
Well done Gene.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Thanks Gene. A voice of sanity.

I had a full on multi paragraph post ready but as I usually do I checked back in with the thread before posting. Saw you remark and, well, you're right.

It can wait.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
Gene wrote: Maybe a day or two of gun debate silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today?


That is said after every one of these sick and violent events.


And still not one change in gun laws.


I'm with Michael Bloomberg on this issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/michael-bloomberg-gun-control-school-shooting_n_2303499.html
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
In fact I would call it an insult to the victims past, present and future to simply sit back wringing hands while lamenting and mourning and crying out "why is this happening", but doing nothing about it. That is until the next horrid tragedy when the hand wringing can commence a new.


There are sites for mourning and condolences. I encourage everyone so moved to visit them and posit your deepest sympathies. However It is past time for a discussion on what can and should be done.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
Thoughtful words from Gene but....as one who has experienced the loss of a child i can tell you that the first few days you are encapsulated in a cocoon of numbness, it gets much worse several days aftter the event.
Bob D. has a good point about the fact that gun lobbyists will use any tactic to delay thoughtful debate on gun issues....hell, one poster on ST mentioned chemtrails as a possible culprit.
When to start discussion, when to have a time out to grieve....?
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
Before events like this we are already split, mainly because one side chooses to forget the tragedies that go hand in hand with their perceived right to quick and easy gun ownership.

D'A is right. I feel for the families, no doubt it is tragic. But silence on an internet forum does nothing for the victims or their families. If you feel like being silent and it makes you feel better... sign off and be silent. You know what might help comfort those affected... knowing that the root causes of sh#t like this is being addressed: a culture of violence, self-interest, and outrageous fixation on easy access to guns.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 14, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
A lot of factoids have been thrown around the thread along with way too much invective.
None of us can imagine the terror the living and dead children suffered. Nor how the survivors will suffer for the rest of their lives. How the HELL can anyone massacre children?
And how the HELL can this country continue to allow any citizen who chooses to buy a semiautomatic rifle? Without restrictions in many states.

Here is the raw data of rates of gun ownership and death by gun for major countries.
And the graph that correlates the two.
I researched and analyzed the data last year after the Cupertino mass murder.
Data: Wikipedia, Oct 2011. Chart by High Traverse
Data: Wikipedia, Oct 2011. Chart by High Traverse
Credit: HighTraverse

The top correlation graph includes Mexico and Argentina which have unusual ratios of gun ownership to gun deaths. The lower graph omits Mexico and Argentina.
The blue line is the ratio of guns to gun deaths. Gun deaths include homicide, suicide and accidental.
You cannot claim there is no correlation.
And yes We're #1----WAHOO!!!

There are always outliers. Brevik in Oslo. A guy in England last year. The big events get the press.
Day to day more people die by firearm per capita in the US than in any other modern industrialized nation.
So by all means, tell me that essentially unrestricted access to gun ownership is good for our society.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Nicely stated Bruce Kay!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
philo
I would call it an insult to the victims past, present and future to simply sit back wringing hands while lamenting and mourning and crying out "why is this happening", but doing nothing about it

donini
.as one who has experienced the loss of a child i can tell you that the first few days you are encapsulated in a cocoon of numbness, it gets much worse several days aftter the event

you both clearly speak my own thoughts.
SCseagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
Hey Jim and Fred....thinking of you two.

Susan
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
"Maybe a day or two of gun debate silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today?"

"That is said after every one of these sick and violent events."


Yep. Methinks some/most of the families of the kids & teachers would find more significance in seeing something....anything...positive that could come out of an event like this that could minimize similar events in the future.
Silver

Gym climber
Pumpkin Rock
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
I as a parent can not even comprehend violence against a child and my heart is broken for those families. If you have kids or can remember being a kid you might recall how incredibly powerful the moment you reunite with your kid or your parent is everyday. By far the best feeling in my heart everyday is that sight of her running to the gate to be picked up and whisked off to the truck with a hug n kiss for her dad.

:(

Mental illness is such a cruel disease.

Edit : consider how guns are only a tool the mentally ill use to do unthinkable things b
Consider the possibity it's time we stop ignoring mental health needs in this country.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:26pm PT
nobody will admit,"guns did not kill those kids,but it sure made it a lot easier"....as read earlier in this...
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Mental illness is such a cruel disease.

Edit : consider how guns are only a tool the mentally ill use to do unthinkable things b
Consider the possibity it's time we stop ignoring mental health needs in this country.


More I ponder this tragic event, that's what I come to. The guy shot his mom in the face so many times she was unrecogizable, then, took her registered guns to the school. No sane person does that.

Could have just as easily rammed his car into a classroom. Sorry for the bad analogy...

Ugh.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/wake-another-mass-shooting-lets-talk-about-americas-dangerously-gutted-mental

It's not so much the guns, the ammo, the NRA.

It's the country's stupid attitude about Kooks, Creeps, Dips, Freaks, Tards, Borderline half-wits, Jack-offs, Twerps, Midnight Ramblers, Goofballs, Tragically misunderstood Momma's Boys, and Wicked Witches.

Fatally-flawed geniuses not so much...

Never mind the fact street people never seem to be the perps. It's always some loser loner with a middle-class background. How you gonna spot these guys? It's futile, IMO.

And it sucks. It's homegrown terrorism. No fuching around, put them down. Sorry, Ash Hole. They were teeny little kids!

Maybe the next time it won't happen during the holidays...
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
Mother killed by her own gun. No surprise there. You're much more likely to be killed by your gun than using it to save your life.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
ultimately, you will have to outlaw all people who are willing to act on their evil thoughts

They are already outlawed.

It is illegal to perform acts such as this.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
toadgas
reductio ad absurdum
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
How long before the public wants their schools to be run more like prisons?

And yes, it was a nut with a gun that did this. Nothing would have changed this outcome and from what I've heard so far the teachers did all that they could to protect the innocent.

Yet another example of how much damage guns do to peoples lives.

I can hear the gun lobby already "The guns didn't walk onto that campus by themselves" and their stupid f*#king argument "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"…


The world would be safer without Bombs, Guns and Corporations that make money off both
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
no ,i am not sorry,its the guns,i live in wny,the largest bullet making state in the world.it is the guns.what do you do about it?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Jim...Montana was a great kid who loved life and his dad. So sorry for your loss. I was so impressed with him the few times I had the pleasure to talk with him one on one.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
I'll try this again to see if anyone actually notices the facts...

In 1991 about 24000 people were murdered in the US by various means, guns being the most common but strangling, clubs and body parts like fists were also used.

In 2011 slightly less than 14000 was the number. A steady decline of over 10000 over 20 years.

You say we are a violent society? I say that compared to for example the middle east or Africa we are amazingly peaceful here. And we are certainly a more civil society than we were 20 years ago.

It has been posted upthread that the number of these horrific mass killings has remained about flat.

The biggest school mass killing was in the 1920s in Michigan and was done not with a gun but a bomb.

The media whips these awful events into a frenzy, it is hard to keep one's perspective.



T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
Being a school teacher, I remember after the Columbine shootings the schools I taught at began intuder alert drills. We were told to have the kids duck and cover under desks (like an earthquake drill), remain silent,
teachers were to lock the doors and close windows and shades, and turn off lights and remain there until given the all clear. Also all visitors were to check in at the office and must display a visitor name tag.

Over the years since, these drills became less frequent. I bet we see
an increase in that type drills now, not sayin it will prevent future
massacres but may make them harder to execute by the perp. Public schools are not designed with intruder scenarios in mind, if they were they would look like a prison.

Condolences to those that lost loved ones to the actions of this sick
as#@&%e.

RIP Kids and Colleagues.

Tad





mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
Maybe a day or two of gun silence in memory of the kids and teachers lost today?
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
I agree. Kids died today. Little kids.
It's time to mourn.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
Kris wrote: The media whips these awful events into a frenzy, it is hard to keep one's perspective.



Are you really serious...20 kids dead, 7 adults and the shooter.


kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
The media whips these awful events into a frenzy

Oh yeah, it's not nearly as bad as as it seems.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
Riley you are completely out of control.

It saddens me - not the depth of sadness we all feel over today's news - but it saddens me anyway to see someone on this forum resort to vile insult and name calling. We are all among a group of people with a common interest and experience. We can agree on some things, disagree on others and all still be brothers and sisters in climbing. In this we are not like most other people.

To me your bullshit is like water off a duck. I try to present reasoned arguments and you spray profanity and insult. There is no engagement or exchange of ideas.

Too bad really.

EdiT: Jeez guys. Where did I say it wasn't bad??? The facts support the conclusion that our society is significantly less violent than 20 years ago. That was my point in case it wasn't obvious.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
Heidi and I discussed this tragedy over dinner and we both remembered stories from friends and family that work as judges, about how desperate the situation has become with people that are “mentally ill.”

With budget cutbacks in healthcare, the standard for “mentally ill” people in Idaho------and I think most other states, has become:

Incarcerate, medicate, and release.

The problem is: Idaho releases them, and when they quit taking the medication, that allowed them to be released, the judicial system doesn’t know until they commit another transgression that cops are called for.

It looks like the sick-man in Connecticut may have been one of those that was released for good-medical behavior. At least he was at home with his mother. A surprising number just get kicked out to become “street-people.”

I want to second the comments from a ST member from Connecticut with 500+ post on ST.


fear! I think you have a real point!



From fear:

What we need to figure out is what may be a common root cause of this random homicidal rage. Something has changed, for the worse, in the past 20 years. That's not a long span on time. Meds, GMO foods, chemtrails(jk)...

My vote is on meds. I've personally been witness to psychotropic med induced insanity in otherwise perfectly normal people with normal histories. The recent push on television of these complex and horrifying drugs is sickening. If you think the NRA lobby is anything compared to big pharma companies.. you'd be wrong.

This isn't about guns. It's about where this human will to kill as many strangers as possible comes from often in young people without violent histories. For some reason the last mall shooter really bothered me. 22 and seemed so damn normal from his digital history....

So, we need to disect every killer's medical history. Were there any common meds perscribed? I can't even count how many people I know now on some med "for the winter blues"...

Every one of those medication comes with the "May cause suicide" warnings.

It's not a stretch at all if someone's brain is that fuc#ed by chemicals that suicide is pretty damn close to homicide.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns.
TRo

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
I remember when we hid under desks as students (in the 50's) in "drills" called "Civil Defense" to protect us from nuclear attack from the Soviets. Then as a teacher doing the "Columbine" lock down drills to protect us from ourselves. Anybody know what's next?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
Public schools are not designed with intruder scenarios in mind, if they were they would look like a prison.

I think that with some imagination this scenario could be avoided. Of course making our schools like our airports is the worst outcome.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
Anybody know what's next?

Based on what I read on this thread, a further lack of civility when we should be sharing our grief.

John
T Hocking

Trad climber
Redding, Ca
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
I think that with some imagination this scenario could be avoided. Of course making our schools like our airports is the worst outcome.

Ya but at what cost?,
we cant afford to maintain the ones we have now!
Sad but true.
Tad
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
I look at my prized collection of digital photographs of my 4 year old Grandson and cannot for the life of me imagine any reason to shoot him.


Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:47pm PT
I keep thinking about the poor kid who saw someone come into his classroom and shoot the teacher without a word. He ran with friends out of the room and escaped. 20 other classmates did not escape. His world has changed.

I don't know why this happened. I do acknowledge that murders are less frequent. Somehow the incessant media coverage makes it feel so much more overwhelming. Does it encourage the unbalanced?

I do remember another mass casualty - the family massacred in my hometown. Until today, that was the largest mass murder in CT's history. The foster brother beat his brother's wife and children with a tire iron, then set the house on fire. 9 people died. I drove by as he walked away from the crime scene late at night. One of the children had been in my religious instruction course a couple years earlier. That certainly affects my opinion that insane people determined to kill will do so. That day my world changed. At least I was 18 years old before encountering such evil.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
Does it encourage the unbalanced?

yeah I think so


three days ago at the Oregon shopping mall mass killings, the killer said "I am the shooter", prior to opening fire

fame
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 14, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
Somehow the incessant media coverage makes it feel so much more overwhelming. Does it encourage the unbalanced?

Yes, publicity is a factor. These killers feel empowered by these acts and the resulting uproar. A good analogy would be the guys who run out on the field during sports events. The networks refuse to show them on camera, it reduced the occurrences of that nonsense. If they quit publishing the details of the killers, no pictures, no names, then I think we could reduce the copycat effect.

edit: girls also run out of the field, remember Morgana?
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
My heart goes out to all of the families affected in Newtown, CT, especially the little ones who survived. What will it be like to be 5 or 6 or 7 years old and to have to set foot inside that school again? And what will it be like for every parent that has to drop his child at school? I can't imagine what it must feel like to have the rug pulled right out from under you at such a young age.

It seems to me that this sort of violence is just bullying, albeit on a grander scale. I wonder whether the gunman was bullied? Or was he a bully?

There's all this talk about treating one another with respect and decency...special classes in school, national media attention, ad campaigns...can we agree to respectfully disagree, even here on this forum?

I recently stood up on behalf of a colleague who was being bullied by other people in the office. The bullying continued to gain momentum and draw other individuals into the mob until he was getting it from all sides.. Once they figured out that I wasn't on board, the retaliation/bullying grew to include me -- I was even warned not to get in the way (i.e., my job would be in jeopardy). Not for nothing, but I strongly believe that the fact that this sort of behavior is tolerated, and effectively encouraged when no one takes a stand and says, "Hey, this isn't right." - this is the heart of the issue.

If there weren't guns, another substitute would be readily available...IMHO.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
I look at my prized collection of digital photographs of my 4 year old Grandson and cannot for the life of me imagine any reason to shoot him.


Because you are sane.

These mass/random killers are clearly not. The media and most people are looking for reasons from a sane point of view. This will never work.

But, there have been troubled/insane people since time began.

There have been weapons since time began. Firearms are largely unchanged in the past 50 years. Firearm ownership in the % of US households is far less than it was 100 years ago.

What is different now? Something has changed... very recently.

That's what we need to find out and fix. What is driving the motivation to kill random people, and now babies, in previously otherwise nonviolent/young future killers?

So what's changed in the past 20-30 years?

Psychotropic Medications (my theory), something in the food, chemicals in the environment, etc... These 20-something random mass-killers were born unto the medicated generation. Perhaps those "harmless" ADHD meds crammed down their throats while their brains were still developing has had some other unpleasant side effects, like murder.

What's changed is where the answer lies. Not in bickering about who should be able to own high-capacity magazines or signs declaring areas "firearm free". That solves nothing and simply divides us.



jstan

climber
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
What the news seems to be saying.

1. The Lanzas were living in a very well to do neighborhood. Big houses with lots so big it was semi-rural.

2. At the time of the divorce the father signed over the property for $1.

3. There is an older brother.

4. The first person he killed may have been his mother, who was a teacher at the school.

5. Virtually no contact with the people in the neighborhood.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Dec 14, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
I can't read all the posts here tonight, but has anyone mentioned the person in China that today stabbed 20+ children in their school. Some reports say they were stabbed to death.

There are all types of things out there that can hurt people. But generally they are used by....people.

When horrendous things like this happen it seems we want to attach blame to something and think we can solve the problem by doing away with the thing we blame.

But passing more and more laws and restrictions doesn't seem to make the problems go away.

The answer perhaps lies in the core of humanity.



Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:27am PT
Instead of countless posts about guns and arguing here about them....even tho we are climbers and should be kindred spirits in some fashion....how about taking some time out and writing a letter of condolence to the families and sending it in care of the school to show we care.

It almost seems irreverent to argue when people are in such pain and suffering such loss. Lynne

WBraun

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:31am PT
LL LL -- "... how about taking some time out and writing a letter of condolence to the families and sending it in care of the school to show we care."


Best comment in the whole thread .......
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:32am PT
Lynne,

Closer to home, almost twice that many people have been murdered in San Bernardino just this year. Christmas is going to really suck for all those families this year too. Maybe think about helping some of those folks out too. Nobody remembers them. Obama has remained silent too.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:48am PT
How could we get their information, Chaz? Looks like there's plenty of folks that need support. A real field of opportunity to turn the world around. Cancel out the hate with care and compassion. This is a good time of the year to start.
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:53am PT
Gene had the best post.

Asking why is a process of disassociation

when all that is needed is sympathy and support.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:10am PT
Too bad mental health care isn't as easy to get in this country as guns are.
MisterE

Social climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:14am PT
Why is a presumption that

1. We can figure out the mind of these people, on-line, with limited knowledge - thus justifying our "I have it figured out, and if this were MY world"...


wait for it...




disassociation.

2. Tends to supersede the real issue: the victims, family friends, etc
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:15am PT
Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.

How much easier could it get?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:18am PT
At least three guns were found - a Glock and a Sig Sauer, both pistols, inside the school, and a .223-caliber rifle in the back of a car, authorities said. A law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity said some of the guns used in the attack may have belonged to Lanza's mother, who had legally bought five weapons.


So, again, we have the situation they always warn against: A gun owner killed with her own guns, which are stolen, and used in the performance of violent crimes.

Of course, if she hadn't bought the guns, he would have done the same thing with her kitchen knives.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:30am PT
I'm a stupid Canadian, so I'd like an American to set me straight that the 2nd amendment of your constitution includes the right and freedom to be able to gun down a bunch of 6 year olds, with the legislated punishments for such "Freedoms" an afterthought, legally.

Foolishly, I thought the intent was for a people's militia to be able to rise against a tyrannical government and only that.

crock

Trad climber
The Windiest Mountain, Wyoming
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:31am PT
Actually Jim, it is illegal in the US to gun down children in schools.
John M

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:46am PT
Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.

How much easier could it get?

Very very very short term help is available. Usually in groups. There are lots of people whom groups would not help.

Also, much of the "free" help are people who are new, or don't have particularly high levels of training.

It would be like going to the school nurse for brain surgery.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:01am PT
I purposely stayed away from the internet today after my mental illness comment... Crag jumped on that quickly... I said that earlier out of anger, sadness, emotion, and I figured that I knew where this would go though out the day (knew correctly)... I waited for my own daughter to get home from school, played with my three-year-old before work, and tried to enjoy my family, living breathing, the moon was beautiful tonight. When my daughter got through at school and dropped by the gym to see me, I looked at her, hugged her and felt the same way as I did earlier:

If you shoot or kill children you are mentally ill.

I just read this entire thread and no matter what someone posts, someone else attacks it. Lynne wanted to know about offering support for families and Chaz puts her down about crimes elsewhere...are you fvcking kidding me?

This is a time to mourn, a time to hug, love, breathe and be thankful for it, to pass that on to the next person, to your children... so many of these post simply perpetuate a set of characteristics far too prevalent in our society, anger, fear, hate...

In China a guy hacked a bunch of kids with a knife, in Syria a dictator plans to drop Sarin gas on his citizens, N. Korea is practicing launching missiles...

If you shoot or kill children you are mentally ill.

Night,
Charles
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:04am PT
PS...






Charles
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:20am PT
no exchange of ideas needed...

That about sums it up.
QITNL

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:37am PT
Wow, just came across something which is really, really sad.

Here is the late principal's twitter account:

http://twitter.com/DHochsprung

Not for the faint of heart. Wow, what a terrible loss.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:03am PT
KSolem, I used to like you (your posts), but...

... now I feel sorry for you.

In my eyes, you just do not get it. Perhaps I am wrong.

My heart goes out to those victims and their families. By your posts KSolem, you do not have the same feelings. Perhaps I am wrong, and if I am, I apologize. But as I can see (read) you come across as a bit callous on this tragedy.

Perhaps I am wrong.

I understand some of the right-twits on this forum, those who love guns and say "Guns kill, people don't". Try telling that to a parent who just lost a child to a nutter.

But KSolem, in the past you always seemed level-headed.

Earlier, in a post on this thread, I said that I do not want to pontificate. I guess I just have.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:24am PT
Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.

Well Chaz, here in Albuquerque a mentally ill man went to the hospital with a secure treatment facility (Anna Kaseman) literally begging for help. He was acting out, pissing on the walls, etc...

They were busy and the administrator sent him packing. The next day he shot and killed five people at various locations around town, finishing up with two uniformed officers.

I don't think their survivors would find your comment informed or humorous.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 08:13am PT
Chaz said
Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.


Maybe you should ask for some then snce you are clearly delusional. The underfunded and undersupported mental health system in this country was virtually GUTTED during state budget cuts by various tea party driven "thou shalt not raise taxes" sate legislatures. In Prescott, Arizona, the Yavapai Guidance Clinic, a major source of care for those in need in that area, went from something like a dozen therapists to 2 in one year because of state budget cuts. Elsewhere in the country, mental health care consists of putting people in prison or into a state run mental health facility (basically a prison) where people struggle to provide any real care to the patients.

Feel free to depart from your "America is a socialist paradise" dreamscape and join us in the real world anytime.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 08:24am PT
From the NY Times today.


The gunman was chillingly accurate. A spokesman for the State Police said he left only one wounded survivor at the school. All the others hit by the barrage of bullets from the guns Mr. Lanza carried — the rifle was similar to a weapon used widely by troops in Afghanistan and Iraq — died, suggesting that they were shot at point-blank range. One law enforcement official said the shootings occurred in two classrooms in a section of the single-story Sandy Hook Elementary School.


So who will be the first fool to regurgitate the NRA approved BS claim that if he didn't have guns he would have still done it but with a knife or a lead pipe or a tennis racket?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 15, 2012 - 08:30am PT
Mental healthcare is FREE, Philo. ( look around ) You just gotta ask for it.

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Agree, this is a delusional statement.

I work in the healthcare and mental healthcare field. In my state there is a 6-month waiting list for "free" mental healthcare.

Before I went into medicine I was told by a crusty old doctor that 99% of what you see in the emergency room is related to mental health problems. I laughed at his ridiculous statement.

But now 2 decades later I see that he was right. Almost everything that we treat in the ER is in some way or another caused by, or related to, mental health problems.

Almost everything that we see in the ER is caused by lifestyle choices - dysfunctional choices related to untreated mental health issues.

Ex:
childhood sexual abuse > depression > alcohol abuse > automobile crash > trauma

anxiety > over-eating > obesity > diabetes

The sooner that our society recognizes that mental health problems are at the root of our society's problems, the sooner we can move forward to deal effectively with the issues.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 08:38am PT
I can see the scenario...
Desperate man on the breaking edge of a violent rampage decides to seek help at local mental health facility and is told to come in for an evaluation in six months. Six months later the survivors of his rampage depressed to the breaking point of suicide seek help at the local mental health facility and are told...

But hey it's FREE right?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 08:45am PT
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1339761/hours-after-kindergarten-shooting-michigan-gop-calls-for-allowing-guns-in-schools/?mobile=nc

Hours After Connecticut Kindergarten Shooting, Michigan GOP Calls For Allowing Guns In Schools
By Zack Beauchamp on Dec 14, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Hours after the terrible shooting in a Newtown, Connecticut elementary school, the Michigan House Republicans issued demanded that Governor Rick Snyder (R) sign a bill that would make it easier for people to receive a gun permit and open up “gun free zones,” including schools. A statement attributed to Press Secretary Ari B. Adler shrugged off any link between guns in schools and school shootings:

Now that IS crazy!
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 10:39am PT
QINTL, thanks for sharing the link to the school principal's Twitter account. Her last tweet was of an article out of the Harvard Business Review..."Nine Ways Successful People Defeat Stress". The first is to have "self-compassion"; the second is to remember the "big picture". I'll have to read the rest of the article another time -- this is all just too sad.

Lynne, I really like your idea of sending a letter to the school. Together today the muppet will draw a picture and I will write a letter, and we'll send these off to the school. They will just be drops in a pond...but you need a lot of drops of water to make a pond.

Just a couple of general thoughts...everyone deals with the shock of an event like this differently, so judging how one person or the other responds emotionally...well, I'll just put this thought out there for consideration. Effective advocacy requires understanding where the person you are trying to persuade is coming from and what he values, and incorporating these considerations into your pitch; generally speaking, yelling, name-calling, door-slamming, lack of respect for differences of opinion, bullying and refusing to really listen and understand are all ways of ensuring that you, as an advocate, will not be heard.

And, yes, I do believe that if the gunman hadn't been able to access guns, he still would have found a way to exert his pathological aggression, but that's just my humble opinion. I'm respectfully open to hearing what anyone else has to say about my own thoughts and opinions.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 15, 2012 - 10:54am PT
^^^^^ (Dec 15 2012, 6:44am PT)

Silver I don't get your rant. What are you trying to say?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:01am PT
Silver I am sorry that you perceive me as ranting. I do not feel that I am. I believe I have made good valid and strong points without drama or histrionics. Expressing condolences and hugging our kids is great and should be a normal part of our humanity. But it wont get dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. To say that in his derangement he would have perpetrated this aggression any other way is a simplistic knee jerk reaction. If he had gone into that school with a baseball bat how many more children would be celebrating Christmas with their Parents this year?
There is a thread for mourning I encourage all to post there if so moved. But this thread has been from the OP about ANOTHER mass shooting. Not about how sorry we feel. Something must be done. Is it unreasonable to say that? This should be a dialogue about what can and should be done. It is sad to me that every time these horrid episodes occur gun advocates circle the wagon and reload rather than engage in reasoned and adult dialogue. If that is ranting in your mind I can't help that.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:06am PT
That being there is a BIG difference between "wounded" and "DEAD".
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:08am PT
I think sadly that the genie is out of the bottle when it comes to controlling guns. Too many rabid "patriots" would pull a Charleton Heston ("over my dead body!") and too many criminals armed to the teeth.

That said, I think owning a gun should be at least as difficult as getting a commercial rating for a pilot.

Guns, unlike bombs, don't take a lot of planning to use. Get pissed off, grab a gun, squeeze the trigger. So IF guns had been difficult to obtain/access for this kid, it's likely he would've been hard pressed to inflict the tragic horror that transpired yesterday and we'd have 26-odd people still alive and able to celebrate the holidays with their families.

People who don't live in the wild and think they need guns are a complete mystery to me.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:10am PT
Guns are a tool that have one purpose.

I have lots of tools. I can even use them for purposes they were not intended for.
I can probably trim my beard with my wire cutters or pop beer tops with my linesman.
But they were made for a purpose. Guns are designed to kill. You won't likely use your hand gun as a hammer or your rifle as a pry bar would you. Oh sure if I was mad enough I could kill someone with my hammer. But
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:11am PT
I didn't resort to vile name calling or insults, Dave.
Your credibility gap is showing there.

I'm trying to point out that the real problem is behavior rather than the availability of a tool that is basically the combination of a power drill and a TV remote control.


This was a horrible tragic event. I have no intention of minimizing that.

But one thing that I find heartening (and I currently have the History Channel playing a show called Engineering Evil, about the Holocaust) is that 70 years ago there was so much death and destruction that this event would not have even merited much attention, but today the lives of 20 children is so dear that a billion people are paying attention.

The world might actually be a better place if we are becoming more compassionate.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:16am PT
Yeah next time I see a bear in my kids school I will be sure to brandish my power drill and remote control.

So what do some of you suggest? Rounding up- all guns in this country?

See right there is part, a big part of the problem. Reasonable people start to discuss reasonable regulations and the die hards burp out the "round up all the guns" non sense.
No is remotely suggesting rounding up all the guns or having the UN troops do it or what ever am radio BS is spewed. We are talking about certain classes of weaponry and ammunition and magazines that have no valid purpose in the hands of your average citizen. Make them illegal then perps can be arrested for that and not murderous rampages.

Can any of you gun enthusiasts say unequivocally that your life and personal liberties would be egregiously harmed by not being able to legally own a machine gun? Or an UZI or a MAC10?
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:17am PT
Just a couple of general thoughts...everyone deals with the shock of an event like this differently, so judging how one person or the other responds emotionally...well, I'll just put this thought out there for consideration. Effective advocacy requires understanding where the person you are trying to persuade is coming from and what he values, and incorporating these considerations into your pitch; generally speaking, yelling, name-calling, door-slamming, lack of respect for differences of opinion, bullying and refusing to really listen and understand are all ways of ensuring that you, as an advocate, will not be heard.

And, yes, I do believe that if the gunman hadn't been able to access guns, he still would have found a way to exert his pathological aggression, but that's just my humble opinion. I'm respectfully open to hearing what anyone else has to say about my own thoughts and opinions.

I agree!

I respect those of you who cry out for "gun control". We have gun control here in Canada - at least a lot more then you do in America. But we don't have the "gun culture". I daresay the Americans could impose all manner of measure against guns but incidents like this would still happen.

What has to happen in America is for a total change towards humanity to occur. For individuals to STOP with the violent video games, STOP going to movies that glorify violence, and STOP their global hegemony.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:18am PT
Careful philo, you might get 1 in the head and 4 in the ass.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:21am PT
without glue
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:25am PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#252543




Careful philo, you might get 1 in the head and 4 in the ass.
No there is a classy retort. Should I feel threatened enough to go arsenal up?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:31am PT
Somebody said the same thing in Germany 80 years ago,..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:32am PT
That's been done in Europe,but these events happen with about the same regularity there.


just two examples.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/world/europe/12germany.html?_r=1&
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT
So if inanimate objects like guns don't kill people and thus everyone should be allowed to have any of them then by extension nuclear weapons also don't kill people. So why are so many of you gun guys bent out of shape about Iran's supposed quest for the bomb. Israel has them, Pakistan has them India has them, why not Iran. After all they don't kill people.

And to those who would assuage any sense of moral decency by saying well that gun man was crazy because you would have to be crazy to shoot children in an execution style I give you this Paradox;
photo not found
Missing photo ID#277789

By your own definition many of the soldiers in the IDF are crazy. Why should we give them more fire power?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:34am PT
Hitler became Chancellor 79 years and 11 months ago.

Gun control was on the initial agenda before the Nuremburg laws 2 years later.





But what do I know,...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:36am PT
Uh oh, looks like philo is on his "bloodthirsty jew" rant again.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:37am PT



mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven

Dec 14, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
... but I do have a big dick, so nothing to worry about.

My advice to you, if you really are hung? Go f*ck a donkey and don't let your penis get caught in your pant's zipper.

Like this post and your's, it does little to address the topic. So Mr Self-fellatio, go suck it and don't worry about the dead children.

And when somebody has the moniker/avatar of MeChrist, when are you going to go on a rampage, so we can warn everybody. Jesus was a pacifist, you come across as a nutter, IMO.

For heaven's sake, there are 20 innocent dead children, and you want to say that you have a big dick. YOU ARE a big dick.

There is only one word for your kind... jerk.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:37am PT
No ron just once again pointing out the glaring double standard here on ST.


I am crazy about my right to bear arms.
Only crazy people shoot children point blank.
If a teacher had a gun they coulda popped em with "one in the head four in the ass".

But those dirty Ayrabs are crazy so they can't have any.
They might hurt some kids after all.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:39am PT
And that would be, philo?
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:40am PT
Phil let's say you have three neighbors. Two are trusted friends, the third is a nutcase who stands on the corner and yells that he will kill your friends. Who will you prefer has the nukes?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:41am PT
Is that the kid was killed by shrapnel from a Kasam rocket short round recently?

That particular photo has been proven a fraud.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:44am PT
TGT, I think you might be right. If the child really was shot "point blank" as stated then there would be stippling of the wound.

Sad anyway.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:47am PT
"That particular photo has been proven a fraud."...


No tEEEEEgEEEEEtEEEEE it hasn't. It is real. I have seen the video of the attack and bringing this boy into the hospital. What has been proven false is your tenuous grasp of reality.
Ron you may be surprised to find out that Palestinian kids usually wear clothes even while being shot by crazy IDF kid killers. It is indefensible. Bringing up a few shrapnel wounds as a comparison is no different then arguing that a knife wounding of 20+ children is the equivalent of 20+ children dead from bullet wounds. Weak and morally indefensible arguments.

Hey if all those neighbors can have legal access to assault weapons then I want everyone to have a nuke, After all Nukes don't kill.
Double standard on parade.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:47am PT
Dave,
I learned my "folklore" from my father.

He was a jew.
He was a gun owner.
He was born in Berlin in 1926.
His family escaped Hitler in 1935.


I didn't resort to name calling before, but after that comment you really deserve it.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:51am PT
Now I am confused, which is easily done.

But Ron Anderson, are you not also Toker Viilain? I was under the impression that you are both. And if I am correct, why two avatars? And I if am wrong, I apologize.

May the 20 innocent children, and the slain adults, rest in peace.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:55am PT
Lest it be lost in the wilderness, the shooted accomplished with these guns EXACTLY what these guns were designed to efficiently do.

One could even think of the event as another marketing event for the manufacturers.

After all, it IS pretty impressive what one armed person was able to do in a couple of minutes....no doubt there are some proud gunmakers today.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Some people, on this thread, are showing their true colors.

SAD.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
An army of one.
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
Here's an interesting study, if no one has posted it before.

http://www.jhsph.edu/research/centers-and-institutes/johns-hopkins-center-for-gun-policy-and-research/publications/WhitePaper102512_PressRelease.pdf
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
Ken M
that is in poor taste.
We are talking about the slaughter of innocent children.

































(and now a word from the glue fumes,....)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
This thread has evolved to be MORE about ones right to own Military style weapons...

than the shooting itself...

Sadly they always do and there in lies a part of the problem.

We are talking about the slaughter of innocent children.

Yes Ron so was I.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
RON


DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Every time this happens I wonder what the outcome would be if it happened at a board meeting of NRA or gun manufacturing execs. Or to the schools their kids attend.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
I also truly beleive that no one outside of Law Enforcement/Military and the likes SHOULDN'T be allowed to own Assault style weapons...

Define your terms please.

Are spoons at the prison cafeteria "assault spoons"?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
Yes they did what they were designed and intended to do.
You know I am pretty sure I could kill with a vacuum cleaner but that isn't what it was designed and intended for. Don't drool crocodile tears of lament for the slaughtered children while simultaneously demanding your and by extension everyone's inalienable right to bear assault weapons.


Oh yes Ron by all means ban spoons.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
They are coming for your guns boys. Better find a new hobbie maybe darts would be good
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
Don't drool crocodile tears of lament for the slaughtered children while simultaneously demanding your and by extension everyone's inalienable right to bear assault weapons.


philo, you are showing a very ugly side of yourself.
What do you really know of my mind?




(and I've actually never sought to assault a bear)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
^^^ LOL ^^^

photo not found
Missing photo ID#278426


Well I am out for now time to go stock up on GRRRRnades.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
Well I think I know what you mean locker, but why are you against assault "style" weapons?

Are they too efficient, accurate, rugged and effective?

Do they take the "sport" out of self-defense?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
My pappy grew up on a farm and hunted all his life while owning several hunting rifles..He also served in the air force with exposure to deadly small arms and automatic weapons...He never owned a hand gun and always warmed us kids about the dangerous nature of them...Now handguns have become a phalic symbol for every physically and mentally challenged American male....pack one under the front seat of your monster truck and all those nagging self doubts will disappear.. .Handguns are now idolized along as is the violence that goes with them...They have become toys and status symbols for the macho and rarely used in self-defense...When George Deukmejian was governor , he advised Californians to arm themselves as the police could no longer protect them...It's really tragic that these innocent kids and their parents have to pay the price for the Ted Nugent mentality that has been given so much attention in this sick society...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
But riot guns are OK, locker?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
Should I do a Travis Bickle, "You talkin' ta me?"
What foolishness, Donald Thompson had it right.




locker,

10-20" barrels, 5 (or more) shots

legal in most states fer sure.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
Back in the mid-1970s California had about 15,000 assault rifles on the streets.

The government wanted to limit the number of assault rifles in California. So the state legislature passed a bill to ban the sale of all assault rifles, but any existing assault rifles could be kept.

During the short debate over the bill before it was passed, another 50,000 assault rifles were sold in California.

Glad to see that the measure worked so well.

There is no easy solution, is there?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
Well locker, I didn't specify pump or semi-auto.
Don't think it matters much, both have advantages and disadvantages.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
Ron, Locker, etc.

You talk about ideals like making guns harder to purchase, or ASSult weapons impossible to buy.


Great ideals, we have some of those rules in Canada.




HOWEVER,


this whole scenario could have played out in Canada with the same weapons stolen from the same homes where they were legally owned.






Everyone seems to ignore the facts of what happened - this COULD have happened in a number of other countries where gun violence is almost non-existant.




It truly isn't about the types of guns or your gun laws. This whole thing wouldn't have happened if there weren't guns, but it also wouldn't have happened if there weren't schools.





It is about your society as a whole, the types of guns or laws for guns will not change how your minds develop.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
This is boring and pointless.

The rain is letting off. Time to stop at the range with a box fed semi-auto high power rifle and practice lighting up ass-clowns.

Ben Franklin had wise words on security and freedom.
I intend to endeavor to be deserving.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
jghedge,


what you say may, in fact, be true. What would solve a lot of trouble in the US is removing every single gun from everone except for the 'prison guards' or TSA in your society.


From where you are in history, that would be the only choice. You would turn into a prision society and have to loose a lot of your freedoms. I'm sure, for a variety of reasons, that this will happen as your government gets more in line with the UN and continues to take power from the individual states, move it up to the federal level, and then up to the UN level.



And as this happens, you will notice that society continues to degrade, and problems like this will still happen, just not with the same methods. Then you will wonder why these things happened, once it is too late to do anything about it.



ramonjuan

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
Throw his body out with the trash. No decent burial for these selfish cowards. What a waste.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:45pm PT
Parents need to be more aware of what's going on in their kids lives.

Peers need to be less hesitant to talk about behavior that troubles them.

Guns need to be less accessible to said individuals.


The issues are BOTH mental health and gun control, as these events intrinsically tie them together.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
If the issue is gun control, Canada is wayyyy to lax. 9mm and .223? They don't make much smaller than that! Then only pellets and BB's should be legal?


Let's look at reality here folks!






If he had shown up with 50 cal or something, you would have more of a logical point.


These guns were one step up from a air gun though.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
Huckabee is a effing moron. God needs an invitation?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
Huckabee says the reason for this violence is because god has been removed from many aspects of life.

I thought god was always around, all knowing, all seeing.

What's up with that, Huck?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
Read a few more posts this morning and couldn't read anymore. Sitting at my desk with tears.

Do only a handful here get it? We don't need bitter words, accusations and name calling right now. We need to hurt with the people hurting. We need, as Lilabiene put it, to be drops that add up to a body of healing.

For God sakes do something positive......lynne
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
Locker, I've got these guns, I know the difference. And this kid had tried to purchase a .223 from a store, they wouldn't give it to him that day because of the waiting period, etc. The law worked there. Then he went and committed a crime by killing someone to get their guns in order to commit another crime. The laws were already in place to refuse him a gun, and it worked. How would you have changed that law which did what you say it should do? You wouldn't. Your post didn't apply to reality in this case. It applies to theory where you live maybe, but not in this state.



What Huckabee is saying is that they don't allow prayer in schools, removed 10 commandments and other things from other schools for whatever reasons, he is playing off that old controversy.


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
jghedge



Assult weapons by a liberal classification would mean that the Remingon 870 dressed in black or camo would be restricted vs. a Remington 870 with a wood stock.




I don't know why you can't see that is what Ron is getting at - maybe you don't know much about guns?




I'm neither, I live in a country that doesn't divide people by pro or anti into blue and red groups. But I lived in yours for 10 years and can see how both side close their eyes to problems to stay on their side's pre-determined agendas.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
Of course we know what Ron is trying to do, confuse.

Sometimes adults have to draw black lines in grey areas.

Assault weapons lists have been created, both state and federal. There will always be apparent contradictions around the edges. Should we throw them out because perfection is not possible?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
One look at Remington's website and you would no longer be confused.



http://www.remington.com

Should this be restricted?
Should this be restricted?
Credit: tooth


Or this???
Or this???
Credit: tooth


Liberals would say the first one is OK and would restrict the second. In Canada, they restricted the magazine for Reuger 10/22's because it looks like a banana. So we buy from Butler Creek because they weren't smart enough to realize there are knock offs.

If you have politicians and citizens as smart as that in your country too, you will not solve anything!
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
Bruce, our culture for the past 50 years has been so fundamentally different in hundreds of ways that even if we could carry the 2 classes of guns that the US can, we wouldn't have the problems they have today.
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Wow jghedge, I didn't think that there were actually Americans with that train of thought yet. OK then!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Hey both Rons, sorry to confuse you both. I wasn't sure. My sincere apologies. Sometimes, on the internet, when we are not communicating face to face, things get misconstrued.

Jennie is having a bad hair day, so to speak. Okay, she is really confabulating. The public health nurse and her doctors are not too worried. I am the one freaking out. But then, I am her carer, and partner. I do worry.

So when an issue like the shootings come up, I feel queasy, to the point where I called the Samaritans, just to talk with somebody about the issue. The woman I spoke with said that actually both in the UK and Ireland, people have called in about the Sandy Hook shootings. It is a disturbing event.

Unfortunately, I have no answers. People who want guns will get them. An armed teacher? To stop the head case? I doubt it.

We know that it is not just about the US, but it seems that most of the shooting incidents are in the US. And it is not the fact that God and religion are not taught in schools, like a couple of politicians say.

There is a break down some where. I don't know where. And those 20 dead children will never know.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
I might be simplistic to blame one thing here.

While the efficiency of the tools count, and the side effects of psych meds could be a factor, I still think the rampant gun violence depicted in Movies and TV condition us to view using guns as flexing our power.

and I see that motivating these mass killers. They are showing us how powerful they are.

Peace

Karl

from a few pages back

Now handguns have become a phalic symbol for every physically and mentally challenged American male....pack one under the front seat of your monster truck and all those nagging self doubts will disappear.. .Handguns are now idolized along as is the violence that goes with them...They have become toys and status symbols for the macho and rarely used in self-defense..
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:47pm PT
Would solve the problem. Talking about which of your penis-substitutes has a wood stock, or whatever, is idiotic.

A lot of folks where I live hunt. It's a part of our culture.

I'm all for tighter regulations, but an outright ban will never happen. How are we going to get our deer? Elk? Antelope? Fowl?
jstan

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
(Please let's not go into the "but we need it to take on the military" argument - what a joke.)

The data is pretty clear as regards opposing an organized military force. IED's and suicide bombs are much more effective.

I know the suicide bomb lacks the feeling of invulnerability making guns, at least superficially, attractive. A thoughtful person need only look at the trauma experienced by our returning veterans to disabuse one of that trivial belief.

Guns give one a sense of being able to project great power over a distance large enough to allow one to feel untouchable. Very seductive. But the reality is quite different. I understand the first rule for a sniper is always to change position. There's a reason.
Fletcher

Trad climber
The rock doesn't care what I think
Dec 15, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
Dirge without Music

Edna St. Vincent Millay

I am not resigned to the shutting away of loving hearts in the hard ground.
So it is, and so it will be, for so it has been, time out of mind:
Into the darkness they go, the wise and the lovely. Crowned
With lilies and with laurel they go; but I am not resigned.
Lovers and thinkers, into the earth with you.
Be one with the dull, the indiscriminate dust.
A fragment of what you felt, of what you knew,
A formula, a phrase remains, --- but the best is lost.

The answers quick & keen, the honest look, the laughter, the love,
They are gone. They have gone to feed the roses. Elegant and curled
Is the blossom. Fragrant is the blossom. I know. But I do not approve.
More precious was the light in your eyes than all the roses in the world.

Down, down, down into the darkness of the grave
Gently they go, the beautiful, the tender, the kind;
Quietly they go, the intelligent, the witty, the brave.
I know. But I do not approve. And I am not resigned.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.

I beg to disagree, this is us operating under the delusion of way too much god. And speaking of god - where was he? And THAT was his plan for those children? Please keep your god delusions to yourself.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
Cragman wrote: We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God,(bullshit) we can't pray in public, (Bullshit) we strip all evidence of God from our culture,(bullshit) and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God. (and Bullshit again)


Ok..Mike Huckabee!!


For christ sakes man...what type of perverted god do you believe in??


Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
We just don't get it. We've totally turned from God, we can't pray in public, we strip all evidence of God from our culture, and then we say, we can be better than this. No we can't, this is us without God.

This is why we shouldn't allow prayer in schools

who are WE?

YOU speak for yourself Crag. no one else.


Edit:Think we just got trolled from the SuperPulpit.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
Religion has a great history of dealing with mental illness. Oh, wait, I mean of empowering paranoid persecution complexes and burning the rest of the mentally ill at the stake. Good luck with that.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Well stated, Ron Anderson


Locker/Norton
2016
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
^^^^^^^
Well stated, Norton.


I wondered where I left that f*#kin rock.
I wondered where I left that f*#kin rock.
Credit: Wade Icey



QITNL

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
Oh, that's great. You can help all those guys apply for their Victim Card.

Then they can wave it around like you wave yours.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
I have three beautiful children, a beautiful wife that has share the last 38 years together with me, I have a beautiful dog and get to hike in the beautiful hills with her around my house.

I don't live in hell.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
An other interpretation of this would be that drugs were used as an alternative to commitment with tragic consequence.


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
For the first time: I find myself in agreement with Donald Thompson statements on ST.

On physicians advice last year, Heidi got off birth-control pills.

She then had accelerated Menopause and hourly "hot-flashes."

She then was prescribed Effexor at a low doseage for the "hot-flashes."

One tablet fuked her up for 24 hours, with symptoms including total insomnia, blackouts, and paranoid delusions.

One tablet was enough.

She has had problems this year with back and hip pain related to nerves damaged from a hard "butt-plant" on ice. Things are now getting better, but every physician along the way offered her prescriptions for antidepressants, not for depression, but for supposed arthritus and/or pain.

After a bunch of research, often at crazymeds.com, she is flat out scared to take any antidepressant. http://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage


The sh#t is way over-prescribed and can have horrible side-effects.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Kos is the man.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
And as usual Ron can't even get a quote right..."In short, the attribution of this quote to Plato remains most questionable, while its appearence in works by George Santayana is a fact, and the possibility that the source of its misattribution to Plato be General McArthur is quite real, though not proven."


Please show something linking that quote to Plato.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs. There have been 109 wounded and 58 killed.

Association does not equal causation. You learn that on the first day in Statistics 101.

Saying that the psychiatric drugs causes mass shootings is like saying that flies cause garbage.

Who are the people most likely to commit mass murder? Normal people or psycho nut cases?

Who are the people most likely to be taking psychiatric drugs? Normal people or psycho nut cases?

I think heaven and hell exist. I think hell is what we live physically- and how we handle that determines our heaven.


Profound statement, may I use that statement myself?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
Ron wrote: Well Bob,, you COULD just look at recorded history to know whomever made that statement thus far, in thousands of years have been quite correct.


In your world...not mine.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
Jhedge:

Hers's something I can point to that isn't speculative - the shootings wouldn't have occurred if the shooters hadn't had guns.

Joe, I have to point out that you are missing an "e" in the first word of your post

as you have always shown perfect editing skill, this is inexcusable

we expect more out of you
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Food for thought:

"The 2nd Amendment was written as a reaction to insure individual freedom against the potential of an oppressive government. It then was used to support the westward expansion of our nation, and continues to this day into what we think of as the frontier society, from whence so many of our beliefs and laws are derived. The idea of a frontier society, though dramatic and interesting as a formative story in the creation of our country, needs to be mourned and put in our past. Aside from hunting, let's advocate for the abolishment of all weapons by private citizens that could cause the death of another. We have enough checks and balances in our institutions to insure against the potential of undemocratic action by our government. I can see how this measure was important with a newly formed nation, but it no longer applies. The cost in human life to maintaining this right is unconscionable."


Really...why is there 300 million guns in the US?? Almost 200 handgun deaths a week. WTF!


Here is what we do know...the countries with the strictest gun laws have the least deaths by guns.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
further comment on posting while including quotes from others

first highlight and copy the quote

then paste the quote

then highlight the entire quote again

then click on the '' symbol, the fourth from the left under Please enter your reply below

this will then properly place the quote in a cool separate window

thank you for observing posting etiquette
photo not found
Missing photo ID#278452
QITNL

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
United Way of Western Connecticut - Sandy Hook School Support Fund:

http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Newtown-Sandy-Hook-Announcement.html?soid=1101979468367&aid=u022UJodt2o
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
God has not been allowed in schools since 1962.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
We have enough checks and balances in our institutions to insure against the potential of undemocratic action by our government.

Really? I think that the forefathers of this great nation thought differently. I think that they knew that all of the bad things that people do and become just don't go away and that we need protection until the end of time against the tyranny of an oppressive government.

Did the Patriot Act Give or take away peoples civil rights, even just a tiny bit? That didn't happen in the old west, it happened now.

Maybe we don't have an oppressive undemocratic government because civilians are armed. Who can know for sure?

Dave
dirtbag

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:41pm PT


God has not been allowed in schools since 1962.

Good.


You want your kid to read the bible, pray to allah, chant all day?


Send them to a private school--NOT a taxpayer-paid public school.


Quit shoving YOUR mythological, hocus pocus, Gawd babble down everyone else's throat.


Oh yeah, and read the damned First Amendment.






Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
So you can have people being raised by their video games, with images of death and destruction that they end up living out, or we can raise kids with the idea that loving their neighbor as they love themselves, is a good way to roll.

The consequences of each of these ideals is evident. Just look at the amount of hate-speak in this very thread.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
I came across this guy: Lt Col Dave Grossman, who specializes in the psychology of killing. Very fascinating and thought provoking.

His Bio: http://www.killology.com/bio.htm

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Dec 15, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
And now, a word from our sponsors.

Credit: bvb
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Bob, I wish you would post more often
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
So you can have people being raised by their video games, with images of death and destruction that they end up living out, or we can raise kids with the idea that loving their neighbor as they love themselves, is a good way to roll.

We should raise our kids that way, but god doesn't have to come into the picture.

You are free to raise your kids however you want, but not everyone accepts the same god as you. Does that make them damned?

All major religions teach the same moral code, so teach your kids with whatever name you put on that code, and leave your personal god at home. You are a great parent, rest easy in that your kids are growing up the way that you see fit.

But, god stays at home and in church in regards to discussion. It has no place in schools. Schools are for learning, not indoctrination.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
or we can raise kids with the idea that loving their neighbor as they love themselves, is a good way to roll.

thanks for pointing that out, Cragman

and parents can teach their children that without also making them believe they have an imaginary old bearded friend up in the sky somewhere

another imaginary friend is coming soon, Santa
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:05pm PT


an astonishingly easy way to stop massacres within 5 seconds.


Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
Cragman wrote: God has not been allowed in schools since 1962.


Really...so what were the nuns teaching me in third grade then?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
And now, a word from our sponsors.

Credit: bvb
Bob, isn't that very inappropriate? Jesus, have some humanity...

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
Why do you talk to Jesus with that tone, Blue?
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
Public schools, Bob.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Really...so what were the nuns teaching me in third grade then?

Bob, those nuns were not teaching in public schools but private Catholic ones

Like you, I wore my little uniform in a private Catholic grade school

and then spent all four years of high school in a private, all boys Christian Brothers institution
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Cragman wrote: Public schools, Bob.


Really...you are still wrong.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
Same with me Norton.....and look at where you, Bob and I are now- guess it didn't take.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
Dave Koss said:
Again, it is my belief that God hears all prayers

very comforting, assuming true

you are a very smart guy, Dave, can you go a little further and tell us how the god your believe in decides which prayers to answer and which ones to ignore?

or perhaps you mean god just "hears" prayers, but does not get involved in personal lives?
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Norton...I feel for you...I went to a Christian Brother college too.


Crag...please do a little research before posting your emotional spewing.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Norton wrote: Bob, those nuns were not teaching in public schools but private Catholic ones



And god wasn't banned in public schools either.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:42pm PT
How about they let God back in schools and you gun nuts give up the guns?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
How does one ban someone who is omnipresent?

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
How does one ban someone who is omnipresent?

through the power of prayer
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
Amen.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Dec 15, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
Today i forgive the shooter. . . . and Thank him.
Yesterday i mourned with anger and grief. My heart blead with sorrow for the parents and families of the lives that were so abruptly snatched away.
My conscience can relate, as i to have a 6 yro daughter. Upon hearing this
traject news i was thrusted down deep within myself for reflection."What
if my daughter was gone when i went to pick her up from school?" Well,
long story short. She was there. And for the rest of the day, i carried
the DEEPEST feeling of Appreciation to the moments that we share together.
Through this awareness my vision was striped down to focusing on her fears
and concerns. Then her hopes and dreams. All in all, it was one of the most
bonding days of our lives! For THIS i thank the shooter
I also thank him for the conscienceness he has brought around the world to familys of how SHORT and PRECIOUS our time is. And for setting
up a stage which has caused familys to openly reflect, and discuss the True meanings of Life and death, and Love and hate. i know it brought
a lot of parents around me to appreciate their children a little more
this day.
I only hope we can carry this intense appreciation through Chirstmas
and offer it up to the Lord. I can only imagine the pain of the parents
who lost a child. But remember God lost a child yesterday too. When the
shooter took his own life.
For this i hope the evil spirit that posessed him BURNSINHELL.

Jus Refect'in
BB
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
"How do you ban something that is non existant?"...

To believers, god exists, and we shouldn't disrespect that faith.





How did this turn into another cyclical god thread?

God had nothing to do with yesterday's tragedy, lets just leave that aspect out of this, please.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Dec 15, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
To believers, god exists, and we shouldn't disrespect that faith.

Yeah, right. Everything that happens, they teach, is God's will.

"Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white
They are precious in his sight.
Jesus loves the little children of the world."
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
Today i forgive the shooter. . . . and Thank him.

well Blu, I can never forgive or thank, the killer

so I guess you have more compassion than I

good on you, I guess
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
um, guys?

the killer is dead

he killed himself when his spree was over

he ain't thinking of anything now

and no money will be spent on him in a prison cell

fine by me
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Dec 15, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
Heaven and hell may or may not exist.
However, Adam Lanza proved yesterday that demons do in fact roam the earth.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
Well, back from shooting my evil black rifle in preparation for the armed insurrection. LOL

Some of you guys are really living the dream (or more like living in a dream).
But that is the beauty of it. YOU GET TO. When the criminal roams your neighborhood looking for prey he doesn't know who is ready to give him a reception that includes a muzzle inspection.


Unless of course you want to take TGT's advice.




When 33 states passed "shall issue" CCW license laws and criminals didn't know who was packing heat, then it must have been by sheer coincidence that armed crime happened to drop in all 33 states.

There couldn't even be a CASUAL link (even though criminals rarely dress up).
jstan

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
The multiple shots to each victim pretty clearly indicates a high death count among small children was desired and furthermore it was intended we all might be revolted by this to an extreme.

We should be.

Has there ever been a societal problem successfully resolved by taking one single action? Generally you have to take a number of actions in different areas so as to squeeze down the part of phase space giving rise to the problem.

Those opposing action of any kind to reduce the general availability of weapons ignore the nature of the problem we face and should lose fitness in determining the upcoming response.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
Anyone tell me why the US State with the most restrictive gun laws is also the state
with the least number of handgun deaths?

this does not seem to be just a coincidence

anyone?

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
Democracy is two rapists debating the definition of consent with a woman.


A republic provides her the protection of the law.

The second amendment, a gun to defend herself with if the law fails.

The second amendment exists to make the minority dangerous enough to the mob be respected.

Jhedges ilk finds that anathema.

Just like they did in the reconstruction south.


ALL inanimate objects are subject to evil use.


We have a nut, or as described in a preceding post, demon control problem.

How you make the determination that someone presents enough of a danger that separation from the rest of society is justified is possibly an insoluble problem when balanced with the protection of individual rights, but just about every incident like this there were plenty of signs that the individual presented a clear and present danger and was not dealt with in an effective manner.

Evil is as pervasive a force as gravity.

Hindsight is always clear.

So also is the desire for a trite solution by some.


Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
Norton, my weegee board is on the fritz. Maybe you could just fill in the blanks your "stats" used.





































and now, a few anti-semitic thoughts;....
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
BLUEBLOCR


^^^

A TRUE Christian with a HEART...

You and Cosmic dude...

Don't personally know many others...

Really, Locker??? You sh#t on God and Christianity in this thread and now you choose to suck up??

WTF, bro?>

God did allow this to happen. Know why? People like you. God is trying to show us what happens when we walk away from him, like the Israelites did so long ago.

God sees the truth and waits.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:32pm PT
no wingnut hysteria

It was the wingnuts that released the FBI stats, so I guess you must be right.
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
F*#ked -up.................













One way or another, one way or another, one way or another....this darkness got to give.
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
Democracy is two rapists debating the definition of consent with a woman.

Could you please explain your point here?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
Why is Bluering blaming Locker for yesterday's massacre?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
Locker, fair enough.

And God is NOT omnipresent. He is omnipowerful.

It's my belief that God had reign over us for a while and 'let us run'. He watches and will judge, but he doesn't interfere with his project.

Angels? That's different. They're out there and they do God's work. They are God's minions. As I said before;

God knows the truth, and waits....
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
Blu wrote: God did allow this to happen. Know why? People like you. God is trying to show us what happens when we walk away from him, like the Israelites did so long ago.


Another christian retard trying to make God as f*#k up as them.


You are one sick puppy.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
"God did allow this to happen. Know why? People like you."...

Are you idiots really going to go this route? Saying I personally blamed Locker for this? Really, leg-humpers???


EDIT:
"Locker, fair enough."...

Now who's...

"Sucking up"...

LOL!!!...

O.k., f*#k you, then!!! Does that make me more consistent!!!!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
A continuation of a previous quoted post.


If I were the media, I'd allow myself to get very personal in publishing accounts of these guys. Personal, and nasty.

And not only is this a bit of a public service, but, as I said, this is much more relevant to the actual reasons for his crime than this puffed-up faux-heroic claimed motivations. The maniac in Colorado did not shoot up a theater because of Batman, and to even say that credits his self-conception as true and puffs up his fantasy connection to Batman.

No, the maniac in Colorado shot up the theater because he was a pathetic weakling unloved by women and incapable of satisfying them and so retreated into a twisted babydick world of power fantasy.

Same thing with this guy.

I'm going to go against my political team, here-- although conservatives often say "Label evil as what it is, Evil, and leave therapy and psychology out of it," I'm going to say No, not in these instances. Because Evil (notice the capital letter E) is powerful in these sad losers' imaginations, and they want to be called the Big Scary Man, the Shadow That Menaces At Midnight.

For an impotent, weak, ineffectual man, that is an attractive fantasy.

What they do not want and could not abide is an accurate assessment of their psychology, their physical stature and shortcomings, their ability to succeed in work or school, their loser history with women, and so on.

To the average people, the idea of being called Evil is bracing and restraining. Not to these fellers. All of these bizarre murders are motivated, at root, by the psychology of utter failure. These are flop-sweat murders, sexual panic murders, too weak to carry on murders. Reporting them as such would not only provide at least as small disincentive to the Power Fantasy losers who commit them, but would actually be much, much closer to the truth than "Heavy Metal poisoned his mind."

No, being the runt who no one loved all his life poisoned his mind. Heavy Metal was just his escape from that. Or Batman, or video games, or Jared Laugher's Conspiracy By Manipulation of Grammar, etc. Promoting the Batman/Heavy Metal angle takes the lunatic's diagnosis of himself as credible.

It's not.

There's a Pink Floyd song that mentions a sentence of being exposed before your peers. Let's strip the Mystery away from these guys. The Mystery angle is both complimentary (in the only way it matters-- as they assess a compliment) and false. The thoughts of a loser gone lunatic are not particularly mysterious, and not very interesting; they're all basically the same, as FBI profilers can tell you.

So less of that.

These guys are Romanticizing murder and conceiving it as some sort of Blaze of Glory heroic Act III. Everything we do and say should refuse that romanticization. Where they seek to seem big, we should make them small (which, again, is actually on the mark as far as accurately). Where they wish to seem Potent -- capable of inflicting their will on the world -- we should strip them down to what they actually are, impotent in virtually all ways. A little finger pulling a gun they didn't build is the one sad skill they've had any success with.

Let them know that murder will not be an escape from that pitiful truth, but rather a life sentence of being confronted with it.

"Theater:" A commenter "beach" cites an expert diagnosing this sort of crime.

A key word is "theater" -- the psychopath chooses this sort of senseless, large-scale murder for the theatrical element. Obviously there is no "motive" as it is usually understood -- murdering a bunch of kids does not advance his cause (the way murdering a man for his car would get you, temporarily, a car).

He wants to be discussed; he's giving a performance; he wants to move the audience.

The audience shouldn't indulge him by considering him in the terms her prefers.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 15, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Sure, you wanted my source?




States with Strong Gun Laws and Low Rates of Gun Ownership Have Lowest Firearm Death Rates

Washington, DC—States with low gun ownership rates and strong gun laws have the lowest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of 2009 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

The analysis reveals that the five states with the lowest per capita gun death rates were Massachusetts, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut. Each of these states had a per capita gun death rate far below the national per capita gun death rate of 10.19 per 100,000 for 2009. Each state has strong gun laws and low gun ownership rates. By contrast, states with weak gun laws and higher rates of gun ownership had far higher rates of firearm-related death. Ranking first in the nation for gun death was Louisiana, followed by Wyoming, Alabama, Montana, and Mississippi. (See rankings below for bottom and top five states. See http://www.vpc.org/fadeathchart12.htm for a ranking of all 50 states.)

VPC Legislative Director Kristen Rand states, “Massachusetts’ low gun death rate stands as proof of how long-term, comprehensive firearms regulation can increase public safety and protect communities and families.”

States with the Five LOWEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates

Massachusetts--Rank: 50; Household Gun Ownership: 12.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.14 per 100,000.

Hawaii--Rank: 49; Household Gun Ownership: 9.7 percent; Gun Death Rate: 3.63 per 100,000.

New Jersey--Rank: 48; Household Gun Ownership: 11.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.72 per 100,000.

New York--Rank: 47; Household Gun Ownership: 18.1 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.90 per 100,000.

Connecticut--Rank: 46; Household Gun Ownership: 16.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 4.92 per 100,000.


States with the Five HIGHEST Per Capita Gun Death Rates

Louisiana--Rank: 1; Household Gun Ownership: 45.6 percent; Gun Death Rate: 18.03 per 100,000.

Wyoming--Rank: 2; Household Gun Ownership: 62.8 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.64 per 100,000.

Alabama--Rank: 3; Household Gun Ownership: 57.2 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.63 per 100,000.

Montana--Rank: 4; Household Gun Ownership: 61.4 percent; Gun Death Rate: 17.03 per 100,000.

Mississippi--Rank: 5; Household Gun Ownership: 54.3 percent; Gun Death Rate: 16.50 per 100,000.


The VPC defined states with "strong" gun laws as those that add significant state regulation in addition to federal law, such as restricting access to particularly hazardous types of firearms (for example, assault weapons), setting minimum safety standards for firearms and/or requiring a permit to purchase a firearm, and restrictive laws governing the open and concealed carrying of firearms in public. States with "weak" gun laws were defined as those that add little or nothing to federal restrictions and have permissive laws governing the open or concealed carrying of firearms in public. State gun ownership rates were obtained from the September 2005 Pediatrics article “Prevalence of Household Firearms and Firearm-Storage Practices in the 50 States and the District of Columbia: Findings From the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, 2002,” which is the most recent comprehensive data available on state gun ownership.http://www.vpc.org/press/1204death.htm
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
Please explain what, "People like you" means/implies...


I will. It's not you personally. It's people "like" you...

We, as a society or culture, have chosen to remove God from schools and other public events for fear fear of "offending" a small minority of very loud people.

We Christians are perceived as weak because we are peaceful and we have capitulated to these lesser, rather loud voices who constantly tear away at our Christian foundations.

They can try to do that. It's legal.

But you can f*#king mark my words. We will win this fight. You know why? We struggle for God and the truth.

Once we walked away from Christ and God, we walked towards evil, we allowed evil into our lives and classrooms.

Evil is here, but so is God.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
The "tyranny of the majority" was a major issue with the founders, the reason for a three way divided government and that discussion extended to the second amendment.

In fact it's the reason for the entire Bill of Rights.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
Bluering = scary christian man.

EDIT: angry christian man.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Cheers, Locker.

All I'm saying is that every bad thing that happens isn't because God wanted it to. It's because his children are DOING SH#T WRONG!!!

We suffer together. Or we can rejoice together. God left us to our own devices. Quite literally.

But I have been praying for those poor families in Newtown. Imagine, they have Xmas gifts under their trees for those dead children.

I pray....God comfort those families and bless the dead.

EDIT:

Bluering = scary christian man.


Thank you.

EDIT: angry christian man.


Yeah, and your point is what, as#@&%e????
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
Just did the math on the stats provided by Norton and found an amazing positive coorelation.
The five States with the worst records for gun related deaths had 4 plus times as many guns per capita and were an equal 4 plus times higher in per capita deaths than the five States with the best records.
Also note the correlation in the voting in the last election.
QITNL

climber
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
If this idiot kid's idiot mom took him to a climbing gym rather than a shooting range, taught him how to work her gri-gri rather than her AR-15:

 20 first graders would have been allowed to live their lives.

 6 teachers would have been allowed to teach.

 He could red-point some plastic 5.13, she could go on the web and spray about it.

Instead, they are all dead. Glory to the Gun God.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
So Donini thinks if we "take guns away from law-abiding citizens" we will have a safer society?

Take all the guns away is your serious solution?

EDIT:
If this idiot kid's idiot mom took him to a climbing gym rather than a shooting range, taught him how to work her gri-gri rather than her AR-15:

20 first graders would have been allowed to live their lives.

6 teachers have been allowed to teach.

He could red-point some plastic 5.13, she could go on the web and spray about it.

Instead, they are all dead. Glory to the Gun God.


You make a good point in a weird way. This young man needed more attention and social skills. He needed friends to guide him.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
How many in Mexico?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 15, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
Bluering, please work on your reading comprehension, I said nothing about taking guns away. I did provide some stats that would make most reasonable people think that some form of gun control was in order.