John Long decks at gym?

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BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:12am PT
For the record I have no problem with the bowline (when it's finished and backed up) and I sure as hell never told John what he should or should not tie in with. Obviously if you were distracted (by a pretty girl or a moment of deep insight for instance) you could forget to finish any knot....but....is it easier to unfinish a bowline?
Regardless- John I hope you get the best care possilble and heal back stronger than ever,
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Dec 11, 2012 - 10:17am PT
I guess "unfinished" could mean 2 things:

1) The knot was not fully tied. It was an incomplete knot.

2) The last few inches of the rope were not terminated to a fisherman's knot or similar. This is probably more important for a bowline than a figure 8.

I was assuming 1) was the case here, though I could see a "loose" bowline that was "unfinished" causing a problem as well.

I use bowline for single pitch sport, basically so I can untie after repeated falls. I use a figure 8 for multipitch climbing, where I don't want the knot coming loose over time. Most of my partners do the same.

Manjusri

climber
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
I prefer the bowline tie-in to the eight for most climbing, but I've noticed a tendency for bowline users (myself included) to pull the line through the harness while chatting pre-climb and not tie the knot immediately. I don't see this as often with figure eights, perhaps because the pass through the harness occurs in between the tying of the two eights and stopping feels like more of an interruption. Once through the harness it's easy to think you are tied in.
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
-

ppl always talk about "chatting" or bullshiting and losing focus while they are tying in

i started leading as a skinny 15-year-old and remember being too spooked to talk while racking up or tying in & just trying to concentrate on leading some scary steep 5.8 crack with wobbly hexes and slung stoppers...spooooky!


and to this day i still have the habit of never talking or making eye contact with others while I am preparing to climb


 


Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 11, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
probably worth while to take the "unfinished knot" topic to another thread... eh?

Good luck with that one...
H

Mountain climber
there and back again
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Sorry, to hear about your predicament, Largo. I try never to interrupt someone who is tying in. And typically check the climber I am belaying before they leave the ground.

Once you get the bill from the hospital, even with insurance, its going to be pricey.

I think this is a good reason for the annual bash at Todd Gordons; Todd willing. If not for a fundraiser but a celebration of us all making it this far.

I too have found myself at the top of a climb, leaning back to be lowered only to find my knot was only stuffed though my harness not even tied. Some lessons are cheaper than others!
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Dec 12, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
My first partner used to do dumb sh#t that could get him killed on 2 out of 3 climbs....he used to put the rope through and then start talking and finish the knot later....shit happens and we all f*#k up...but he used to make it a regular part of tieing in ...I finally yelled at him......that he was going to f*#k up and forget and not finish his tie in. And asked him why he would introduce uncertainty into our climbing like that...finish tieing the f*#king knot, I said.....he argued with me and didn't see the big deal....about a month after this he did some f*#ked up thing where his brother was half way up a pitch following us and he had completly forgot to tie in or put him on belay...he was literally just pulling the rope up through his hands..wtf?..a grabbed the rope and threw his brother on belay and clipped my friend into my harness
Luckily he didn't climb with anyone but me ...so I looked out for him...and he quit climbing after we stopped being regular partners happy with the many excellent adventures we had had together..

knudeNoggin

climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 12, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
I guess "unfinished" could mean 2 things:


But, for crying out loud, WHY ARE WE GUESSING?!

The conveyance of "information" via the Net is so
damn fast when unweighted by care in checking facts ... .

Already, there is another "bowline came untied" article fueling
lines of R&I, no doubt building some preponderance of evidence
after the fatal UK case, about which RGold & I tried to point
out that certain key bits of information --i.p., whether in fact
any actual >>knot<< was tied-- were unknown.

HERE, we have connection to the (thankfully, surviving) user;
how about actual-factual details,
vs. the usual this-appears-to-support-my-agenda spewing?

*kN*
shipoopoi

Big Wall climber
oakland
Dec 12, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
so John pulled a "lynn hill" accident. lynn hill famously wrote about her accicent on buffet froid at buoux, another unfinished knot. i've seen the results in a gym first hand, women lowering from forty five feet up, and at 30 feet the knot pulls through and she decks on the peat gravel. nothing broken, but bruised along the entire side on her body.

I teach, practice, and preach that knot tying should be a ritual where we disregard distractions and tie our knot from start to finish. get out the candles and incense here. do it from start to finish, every time, or untie your knot completely and deal with the distractions before tying the knot. ss

10b4me

Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
Dec 12, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
i've been ready to rap, only to notice that I only have one strand of cord through the atc. have been fortunate to correct that
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 12, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
If climbers had any brains they would adopt aviation protocols -
maintain a sterile cockpit during critical flight phases and
USE THE f-ING CHECKLIST!
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
Dec 12, 2012 - 10:50pm PT
If climbers had any brains they would adopt aviation protocols -
maintain a sterile cockpit during critical flight phases and
USE THE f-ING CHECKLIST

Some climbers do.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Dec 12, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
so John pulled a "lynn hill" accident.


I don't think that was lost on many of us, but it bears note. That is an amazing account on her part too.
knudeNoggin

climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:05am PT
so John pulled a "lynn hill" accident.
I don't think that was lost on many of us, but it bears note.

Rather, THAT detail remains unstated by either Largo or his agents.
"unfinished knot" is an awkward (or "political'? :-) way to say "untied".
A fig.8 eyeknot with the tail only taken the first step into re-weaving
is unfinished (and might hold some forces); a bowline doesn't offer
such a half-way stage, really.
And, as noted, the Rock&Ice statement has it that a bowline came untied
--which requires starting out *tied*.

Why are the facts so hard to get,
and so easily lived without?

*kN*
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:08am PT
Long says that he ties in with a double bowline, but this time, distracted and tired after a long day of work, he didn't finish the knot. "I made the two bowline loops," he says, "and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."

Adds Long: "A lot of people are down on the bowline, but the same thing would have happened with a trace-8. I just wasn't paying attention."
WBraun

climber
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:17am PT
John long is the consummate teacher who shows us the actual real world example of what happens when we do it not the way we're supposed to.

Not some sterile book writing, but the real thing, live and in person.

Ho man ....... :-)
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Dec 13, 2012 - 10:30am PT
probably worth while to take the "unfinished knot" topic to another thread... eh?

Why?
knudeNoggin

climber
Falls Church, VA
Dec 13, 2012 - 09:02pm PT
Long says that he ties in with a double bowline,
but this time, distracted and tired after a long day of work,
he didn't finish the knot. "I made the two bowline loops,"
he says, "and threaded the rope through my harness,
but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."

Adds Long: "A lot of people are down on the bowline,
but the same thing would have happened with a trace-8.
I just wasn't paying attention."

I'm quoting a quote above; and that quote comes from ... ?

Well, this seems to shoot a hole in the already-multiply-cited
R&Ice assertions about the cause,
but it's an odd-sounding story, IMO : making the double turns
and THEN reeving the line
--presumably one's holding these
don't-stay-formed-by-themselves-turns in one hand and,
so, having to reeve single-handedly (a plus to the bowline is,
after all, that one can form the entire knot AFTER making its eye)--

and then somehow letting loose of the first-formed part,
which is a sort of positive act, rather than the omission of one!?

Or did the *rabbit* make it around to poke its head out
of the double hole, AND THEN ... <distraction>?! At this
point, the corresponding fig.8 has just hope of an advantage,
as would a "water bowline" (that clove-hitch-based variant),
given enough tail pulled through.


*kN*
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Dec 13, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
I teach, practice, and preach that knot tying should be a ritual where we disregard distractions and tie our knot from start to finish. get out the candles and incense here. do it from start to finish, every time, or untie your knot completely and deal with the distractions before tying the knot. ss

How many times do ppl have to deck before people learn that they will potentially die, that this becomes a 'religious ceremony' before they climb.

Check your knot before you launch!!!! And yer f*#king harness straps! F*#k!
coz

Mountain climber
Northern surly
Dec 13, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
I was climbing a lot of plastic BITD, at City Rock in Berkley.

We all were gunning to red point this one climb we created. I was having a good day and sent it first, then decided to have a go avoiding one key crimp.

While tying in with a figure eight I started the follow through and a very lovely lady interrupted me with a flirtatious question. I stopped tying my knot said something clever and started up the wall, avoided the crimp and dynoed for the top, thinking in my head, I had little chance of sticking it.

By some miracle I stuck it, looked down to see if the young lady was watching and noticed my knot was almost completely untied. Shocked I mantled and finished the knot and lowered.

Since then I do three checks for my tie in knot, one at the base of the route, the second right before starting and the third after the first few moves. This is what I taught my students as well.

My thought was if you missed one or two of the checks you still have a chance.

For the record I used the bowline for years, had it come undone twice and know three people personally who have suffered the fate of Largo.

Use a figure eight, it's completely bomber.

The bottom line is the more you climb the better your chances of screwing up no matter how good you my think you are.
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