Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 30, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
I just saw a post over on r/climbing that John Long decked and shattered his ankle at a gym last night. Anyone have anymore detail? The guy is a damn legend. I hope everything turns out ok.
If John got hurt, doing it at the gym would be about right.
I just got off the DL after nine months. I fell off the top of the boulder at our climbing gym, When I think of some of the highball falls I took while bouldering in the ancient days before pads, I'm still amazed that the only time I hurt myself bouldering was falling less than eight feet, feet-first, onto pads.
If you really are hurt, Largo, best wishes for a speedy and complete recovery.
Jack severed his achilles tendon at the gym once years ago when a foothold spun....was up just one bolt, so fell hard and slammed his leg into the wall, and his achilles just rolled on up his leg! :-( Brutal and long recovery (I think it was 3 months non-weightbearing), but he recovered 100% in time.........
John, if this rumor is true, I hope you heal quickly!!
cheers,
Pam
There sure have been more accidents and bone-brakes at my local climbing gym than I've heard about at the Reed's Pinnacle Area. Just from watching the flashing lights in front of the place, I'd say there's been a broken femur, three fractured vertebrae, a broken ankle, and who knows what else due to either being dropped by a belayer or falling off a bouldering wall. Heck, I tore my rotator cuff and dislocated my arm there too.
Much safer outdoors than in the 'controlled' indoor environment.
When I think of some of the highball falls I took while bouldering in the ancient days before pads, I'm still amazed that the only time I hurt myself bouldering was falling less than eight feet
amen to that
15 years ago I came flying off a 5.12+ and fell 18ft onto the boulder pad, bounced off that thing like it was a trampoline, then somersaulted another 20feet downhill into the pine forest...without a scratch!
the older you get the less you bounce
largo needs the best ortho surgeon out there if it's a compound fx
He's bound to wax philosophically about it once he's back on-line. The mind usually imposes on the body, sometimes it's the other way around. Gotta suck as subjective experiences goes.
John, it was great meeting you at the crag a few months ago, and it would be a pleasure to rope up again sometime, so heal up quick, and well! I'm glad his spirits are intact, even if his leg isn't.
I gave up bouldering when I turned 50. The elderly human body just ain't made for that kind of abuse. ha If it wasn't a twisted ankle it was a pulled finger-tendon, then a tweaked knee. And each one would put me out for 6 months or so.
So was this a bouldering accident or roped gym climbing? Seems like it could be either, considering Marty Karabin broke his femur bouldering a while back.
He said he was pinching a puny wafer with maximum might when his foot, which was splayed out on a slanting rugosity, slipped.
Sounds like he was unroped, or he would have mentioned the part about the belayer failure. Hopefully it will heal completely - the older you get, the longer these injuries never go away ...
Also hope he got detailed pictures of the accident scene, as he taught us all to do. Especially the bone sticking out. At a minimum, we should get to see the stitches.
Yikes. I hate reading the "accident analysis" so close to the incident like that which is illustrated in those linked comments.
I also hate seeing confirmation that accidents can (and do) happen to the best of us.
Like all here, I wish our verbose metaphysical pioneer and cuddliest stone master the speediest of recoveries. I was reading some Largo lore recently and I only wonder if he felt the fear running up and down his spine like jackals when this happened?
I'm sure there will also be a cute nurse or two around Largo can regale with larger than life tales ;).
I'm sure there will also be a cute nurse or two around Largo can regale with larger than life tales ;).
It'll be like the last pitch of Astroman, sans cord. He pops on the final move, but then does some Warner Brothers cartoon stuff on the way down, steps off the falling elevator at the last second, and only bungs an ankle!
I had surgery today, still a bit foggy. No bones sticking out (i am such a noob, couln't even brake my leg the way John did. But he didn't give any instructions in his books!)
I was in a gym climbing on one of those self-belay machines. Up down-up down, over and over until one time, I had a "senior moment" and forgot to clip in.
I was 2/3 the way up and came off. Fortunately, I landed on a matt; and proceeded to limp out, kind of embarrassed. I finally got a cat/scan a week later, since it was still hurting. The result-a fracture thru my tibia.
SteveA,
Once, I forgot to clip the autobelay as well! But as I grabbed a hold, I just remembered that I forgot my chalk! Turned around and ... wtf??? I forgot to clip! LOL. sucs to be old
I severely sprained my ankle at a gym last year. I was down climbing a boulder move and decided to hop down the last bit or two when my left foot encountered a seam in the gyms very old and unsafe floor mats. Ironically some new mats were stacked nearby ready to be soon installed.
Watch out for these nefarious seams and obviously old and should-have-been-tossed-out-long-ago mats and pads. Now I always look for seams ,tears, and bumps.
Mr. Largo, heal faster by using the power of the mind, which is distinct from the meat brain. I heard that somewhere.
SteveA,
Once, I forgot to clip the autobelay as well! But as I grabbed a hold, I just remembered that I forgot my chalk! Turned around and ... wtf??? I forgot to clip! LOL. sucs to be old
gyms don't hurt people, people hurt themselves
I didn't engage the mini trax once on a solo tr. I was in a nice handjam, fortunately, engaged that sucker and then hung on it to recover from the shock. I also forgot my backup device, so it was a complete mini stroke moment ;).
I love those auto belays and the solo set ups, but you gotta pick up the slack we can usually expect from a partner. Things like, hey, you don't even have a rope on you (another story for me).
PHILO: if, as it seems, that is your original work/drawing, you are incredibly, unbelievably skilled. Both the thought behind it and the actually pencil-to-paper work are just amazing.
You've posted it before and I've always assumed that it is your original work, but never taken the time to comment.
LARGO: Damn, the last thing a guy needs.... I hope you heal well and that you keep your normal great attitude and sense of humor.
Is it too early to start blaming a Kryptonite infused Grigri? The top climbing writer of the age augered in at a gym? WTF? That's like saying things went bad after Ron Jeremy slept with Lorena Bobbitt and she cut his slong off. Just...not....right.
Add me to the long list of well wishers John. Heal up.
Cosmic: LOL. Thanks for the entertaining comments all the way down the thread too.
I destroyed an ACL tendon and tore some of the meniscus jumping down a few feet in the gym. I've jumped off boulders without pads from way higher hundreds of times. It is now ten months after the reconstruction operation and I'm climbing ok but can't really run or jump rope without pain.
I'm convinced that landing on a pad was actually the cause; my ankle rolled into the squishiness, allowing my knee to displace inward. But I should also admit that because of the pads and the disco atmosphere of the gym, I may not have been paying as much attention as I should have to how I landed.
Unfortunately, (a) gravity never sleeps and (b) it is just as strong indoors as out.
John, Sometimes indelicate things must be said: get a stool softener to take with the pain killers. Best wishes and hope to hear some more stories from you. Bill
John, Sometimes indelicate things must be said: get a stool softener to take with the pain killers. Best wishes and hope to hear some more stories from you. Bill
No joke, man. Warm milk with prune juice may loosen those piles up too.
Also, @ Bluering: If you don't know anybody who has broken themselves outdoors, you don't know many people who climb at all. Additionally, the dangerous gym argument is plain hooey, but I expect little more from you on any subject.
Hello All,
Before the rumor mill gets to vicious... John did sustain a lower leg injury from a fall at Rockreation West LA. As far as the details that will be his story to tell...
I have been with him all day and through the night tonight and he is doing well. He will pick up the white courtesy phone when the meds have worn off enough and he can find it.
All your love, healing energy and wishes for a speedy recovery are much appreciated.
Hot Mama Erin
We've never met but I think you look good in a red pasely dress. Who's that crazy kid behind you in the pic and that old man on your arm dood looks like Shatner.
If your daughter can waive a chicken over my busted ankle and it will feel better let me know I'm willing to try anything now to make it feel better after 13 years of pain and swelling.
in our gym there are pads that you move under a boulder. When I fell I missed the pad. The flor I lended on is quite soft. In my life I had many falls, sometimes from much higher with landings on uneven and hard ground. I was much younger back then. Off balance landing is a big factor too.
The doc told me I will probably be not able to climb again. But, not being able to climb is not an option for me. I red many posts from people returning to climbing after really bad injures. People like Disaster Master are my inspiration.
John!
Climbing wasn't suppose to get more dangerous as we got older.
From what I can tell from your hospital room picture, that looks like a nasty break. Can't see the PCA pump in the photo. Hopefully your nurses are keeping your pain well under control.
Lordy, man: I wish there was something I could do to help.
I know you're into subjective experience, but isn't this carrying it a little too far?
Screw the insights, just go for the good drugs and get better soon!
Bummer John,
I was hoping this was posted by a troll at his/her worst.
It sounds like you have good folks around you and an obvious strong support system (if needed) in 'the community'.
Get well soon!
Well, it does look like he's had a few too many Oreo shakes.
I went through my 60th birthday this year with a blown Achilles - that sure made me feel old but all is well now and I'm ready to kick ass again - I wish the same comeback to you Largo!
Oh bummer. One of my heros. Largo will heal up quick i'm sure. I gotta be honest though...I hold that guy fully responsible for 25+++ years of climbing addiction. It was his early vids I watched that put me onto the whole climbing thing and soon had me living under a dirty rock in some place called Camp 4 for a couple of seasons. Heal up Sir.
John, gonna bury the hatchet with Go-Bee and Blueblocker and hold some prayer sessions for ya.
Modern medicine is great. They charge you fifty bucks for every one of those paper pillow covers. A dude comes for your sponge bath. You get so constipated from the opiates that they time your bowel movements. When the threat of the enema grows strong, go sit on that toilet or bed pan for an hour to sh#t out a series of peas. Like Milk Duds.
No way am I ever gonna deface my pride by getting a f*#king enema.
Morpheine is about the cheapest drug on the planet. A big vial costs 10 bucks or something. Use it liberally, and if you can steal some, send it to me. For proper and legal disposal, of course.
John,
I figure you'll have time to follow this thread...
I did a couple of laps on Hummingbird in the rain today and was thinking about your knarly Mono exploits on the steepest sections.
I think unless you've seen it with your own eyes, it's hard to comprehend the level of talent it takes to manage off-road on one wheel. I work my ass off trying to stay vertical on two !
I know it is especially hard on athletes to be side-lined by such injuries and I hope you have a speedy, full recovery.
Dave,
Hummingbird is an incredible wicked downhill. Technical switchbacks and faaaaast and long sweepers. Lot's of steep, technical sandstone too.
It's located in the foothills of Simi Valley/North San Fernando Valley.
118N Exit/park at Rocky Peak Road. Ride up the steep dirt road about a mile. You'll see the sign/bench at the trailhead.
Next time you're out this way give me a call and I'll join you on it.
Thanks Pud I will, and thanks every one, Cosmic...dude, you rule! and Bob Bolton...you started it! Cragman, yur' pretty interesting for a Christian! I take back some of my stereotypes.
Wulp, since I first met John Long out at Stoney circa 1980, I have read about him doing the impossible time and time again... and I guess he did it again. ;) Get well, soon John! :)
Lesson: don't fall, especialy if you are old!
You got that right! They don't even repair us at our age! Ain't got that much longer, not worth it! They just give us more advil and tell us to deal! lol My doc says don't worry about all that pain and stiffness, you just have an ibuprofen deficiency. haha
I remember struggling with the impossibility of tying my shoes with a broken right arm in a cast and a broken left hand in a splint at JT in 1980.The remedy came in the form of Mr. Long from a neighboring campsite;a random act of kindness i have not forgotten.Heal well old man.Perhaps you can make the best of it and exercise your considerable talent to get your literary projects done while the honing of the body is postponed.
Mr Long, i hope you are resting easy tonight and pain free.. I accidentally looked at your picture again....double ouch.
Rich S.... You were pretty banged-up from your Joshua Tree fall.... and
You may have been able to tie your own shoes, if not for the fact.. that you
snuck out of the hospital early... I was so shocked to see you back in camp with a messed up face and body....hairball.
Hey Miss Jennie, if you Married -John Long, you would be ...
Jennie Long Long. or..Jennie Two Long...
Well Nita, it really wasn't a matter of sneaking out, rather it was because i was a broke dirtbag climber unable to afford the care. I remember hitchhiking into Yucca Valley for groceries with you, i remember you as a compassionate young woman with a genuinely good heart. You have not changed in that regard.
Probably not the drugs of first choice, but enjoy them if you can! Another example to add to the growing body of knowledge that gyms are the places where old people go to die. Zone or break bone.
largo is one of our most astute investigators of climbing accidents, and i'm eagerly awaiting his analysis of what happened. i know he's kinda encumbered by that body cast, but i'm sure he can type with his nose. meanwhile i'm rifling through JL climbing books, looking for the chapter on rugosities.
rockreation is one dangerous place. my worse climbing injury occured there while putting on my moccasims. i'm not joking about that. those shoes have a "slingshot" heel, i was eager to get started climbing that day, and as i carelessly pulled on the heel, the elastic somehow snapped the index and middle fingers of my right hand sideways. i didn't think much of it until i got on a climb which involved underclinging, and the knuckle joints of those fingers bent over the wrong way. whooooa! the (kaiser) doc said that reattachment surgery was not recommended for such "minor" injuries, so now i get to look at two bent fingers for the rest of my life.
largo has been telling people he stopped climbing three years ago. he'll never stop, and neither will i. looking forward to seeing him out there again sometime soon, as i did at rockreation just a couple weeks ago. he's always an inspiration.
John, just saw this. Heal fast. At the age of 65, I trenched while exceeding the given velocity at my local ski area, JH. The skis stopped immediately and I kept going at about 30 deg off center. Alpine bindings do not release well in that attitude but bones do. I broke the tibia in three places and the fibula in two. Sort of lower leg puree. Pretty messy. One surgery and six months non weight bearing with a year of rehab did the trick. Other than looking at my leg, I would not know it happened. I'd say 95% healed. I went into the long, bad bivy mode. You will crush it. All the best, SS
I'm loopy but one thing is clear - there's a lot of love in the climbingg world, and I must be getting the bulk of it over the last few days. I am embarrassed to have raised others on this site only to have them wish me good cheer. Thanks to all, from the bottom of my heart. You are my heros.
When I was 14, I was bouldering Pratt's Overhang on Flagstaff, and
it was dark. My spotter Larry Dalke saw me stand up onto that
highest hold and give a sigh where I knew I had made it. He
walked away, and the next thing I knew the moon was spinning around,
and I was lying flat on my back and gazing up at the stars.
That's a horrid feeling. I couldn't breathe. I wanted to
say, "Nice catch," but could only make some sort of gasping grunt.
He pushed on my chest, some totally untrained instinctual attempt
at artificial respiration, and then I got my air back, stood up,
and we started laughing. The next day, I woke up and couldn't move
my right wrist. I cracked a bone in it. They put it in a cast and
said not to climb for four weeks or more. The next day I was
in Eldorado hammering pitons with my left hand. We're pretty
resilient when we're young. An ankle is another matter, if you can't
walk. But I can imagine an overhang John could play on, with only
a wild swing in his harness, out in space... Not to climb for a few
weeks is no big deal, though, when you've done as much as John
has. People sometimes ask me why I'm not always out there on the
rock, or some such. They don't realize that decades ago I did
every climb I ever wanted to twice over. Just to walk below
the walls now is a great pleasure, to look up and remember.
We have our nostalgia. It's almost silly, though, to
say "Heal up fast, John," when we know his spirit. That's just a
given. Not much is going to slow the man down for very long. I will say,
though, that climbers have more accidents in "safe" places than in
situations of real seriousness. Huntley Ingalls stepped out the
door of the Sink one night and broke his ankle. Jim Erickson
recently broke his ankle doing something silly. Was it John Glenn
who was first to orbit the earth and then seriously hurt his
back in a fall in the bathtub?
This thread is useless without photos. Some portraits of the climber as a young man.
Credit: Rick A
Credit: Rick A
Credit: Rick A
The "slanting rugosity" reference above is from John's classic story about soloing with Bachar, "The Only Blasphemy." John has published a number of versions over the years and my paraphrase of it above was from the first version in Ken Wilson's anthology, Mirrors in the Cliffs. Got this quote from a later version on the web.
He wastes no time, and scores of milling climbers freeze when he starts. He moves precisely, plugging his fingertips into shallow pockets on the 105-degree wall. I scrutinize his moves, taking mental notes on the sequence. He pauses at 50 feet, directly beneath the crux bulge. Splaying his left foot onto a slanting rugosity, he pinches a tiny rock wafer and pulls through to a gigantic bucket hold. He walks up the last 100 feet, which is only dead vertical. From the summit, Bacher flashes down a smile, awaiting my reply.
... Fifty feet passes quickly. Then, as I splay my left foot up onto the slanting rugosity, the chilling realization comes that, in my haste, I have bungled the sequence, that my hands are too low on that puny wafer that I'm pinching with waning power. My foot is vibrating and I'm desperate, wondering if and when my body will seize and plummet. A montage of black images floods my brain.
Whenever anyone tells me about wanting to solo a climb, I tell them to read this story first. It should be mandatory for any soloist or would be soloist.
Jesus you Stonemasters were something else. Thanks for showing those of us who showed up a couple years later the method and the madness.
Oh yeah, heal up John. Speaking as one who has been busted to pieces numerous times over the last 40 years, modern medicine is the ticket! You'll be crushing in no time.
PS: If you decide you don't want your pain meds, PM me. Just sayin'.
EDIT: That Roubidoux shot is the sh#t. Great man airing it out on a great problem.
Good to hear from you John.Best wishes for a quick and proper healing.Positivity is about the most important part of healing so I'm sure you'll be up and at again soon enough.Positive vibes comin' from this direction.
Glad you liked the Rubidoux shot, Riley and BVB. Can you imagine doing that thing in red PAs?
Someone in a different thread was talking about how precise you had to be to edge with them; if you didn't place them exactly, the hard rubber would skate off in a nanosecond. Even thinking about rocking onto that big hold at the top with those red skates on your feet gives me the willies.
John, it is clear that MANY folks car for you and wishing you will. This bumps in the road of our lives, let us know just how many people admire you.
All the best to you and family as you mend.
I'd like to welcome Largo to the gimp-honored tradition of posting too much on Supertopo while injured.
I know you can't start quite yet but the curve of your posting frequency could be the trajectory of your recovery, increasing as you get out of trauma mode and decreasing as you get back on your feet again. Perhaps a perfect opportunity for a writing a work of literature.
My suggestion:
Larger than life tales from back in the Day
You know, stuff like that guy dating a curry chick whose mom was a curry executive but was forced to take a dump on her carpet on a newspaper just as her mom got home. Climbing stories too, as only you can tell them
Folks would love it, and it'd be more fun to write than a gear book. You can collect some whoppers from your friends and on supertopo as well so only the cream of the sh#t gets published
Do we all want the best for ourselves? If we do we might consider the possibility older bone breaks easily. And once broken they heal less and less perfectly. Listen to Darwin.
Being, as some of us are, past the age of reproduction (which is to say, given recent research, that reproduction may be possible but not advisable), we are also out of the range of natural selection. Those of us who have been fertile have already set our progeny in motion, hence our contribution to the survival or elimination of the species has already been made.
Our communal propensity to shred tendons, bones, and soft tissue, presently so ably represented by our friend Largo (may he recover fully and quickly), suggests we may have done the species little good, although we can always hope the genes that continually land us in the operating room have either not been passed on or else have mutated into something more socially and societally beneficial and less suited to depleting the remaining tatters of the medicaid budget.
All this means that we and our brittling bones are free from future Darwinian constraints, and can replace the potentially consequential reckless abandon of our youthful adventures with the inconsequential reckless abandon of old age, realizing, of course, that diminished capacities will challenge us to extract catastrophes from ever more mundane circumstances.
And so I say, pay Darwin no heed. Ex (cough, cough) celsior!
Hey John, hang in there. You've got a long road ahead. I've been on it over nine months now. It's not all bad and it gets better.
Thank you so much for all the inspired writing you have done. Even as you lie there doped up in bed you are inspiring people. Here's a paragraph of yours I love.
I first went to Yosemite Valley when I was seventeen years old, and continued to spend every summer there until I was twenty-five. The first thing I remember of the place was the Camp 4 parking lot, an oily acre crammed with the proudest medley of rust buckets imaginable. Among the really prime rigs was an ancient British step van that must have been parked on the street during the blitzkrieg; an old, dented, salt-pocked Cadillac, now a convertible thanks to a cutting torch; and a red VW van, broadsided, t-boned, rear- ended, and rolled, not a window in it, vice grips where the steering wheel should have been. Few of these ran without priming and a push start. There wasn't a treaded tire in the whole lot, and a live battery got passed back and forth like a gold brick. The license plates were from Canada, Colorado, California, New York -- most of these junkers having been babied down the road with little chance of ever reaching Yosemite, and no chance of ever leaving it.
John, Ouch sympathies go to you reluctantly as it seems unbelievable what happened. Did the spotters fan out as usual? Pathetic! Nevertheless, this convalescence period will be a good time to practice your knots.
What is with all the demands for new copy but no mention of bucks? Don't waste your time writing. Your fans are never satisfied. And what would you write, "Diary of a mad Unicyclist?" "Will loan you a metolius hangboard that could mount over your bed. ooops you already have one! December=training! Speaking of training, I'd like to invite all the staff nurses to room Largo for a pajama party. Turn up the music and Heal Well, Friend! - Bruce
Hey Largo I know I don't need to tell you but PT is everything when it comes to recovery. It took me many years to get my ankle strong again after a triple-break back in the mid-2000s. I did not rigorously follow my PT and I paid for it... in time shares.
Oh, this is a tib-fib break? I did that when I was a kid jumping off a fence. They even gave me a walking cast without crutches. I'll bet you didn't scream out like a nancy when you put weight on it and you buckled to the ground like I did! I think I was 11.
Cosmic, that first How To Climb cover was the best. It still makes me laugh until my stomach hurts, and lately I've been needing some of that!
Heal up of course and keep from being bored during that time!
What's unique to this thread, unlike a million other accident threads of ST, is that we have no real information on what happened so we can't go on saying what should have happened in hindsight, and blame various acts or people for the incident, only to be found wrong when the actual details some out.
Very sly, having this all so secret. I mean gyms are supposed to be idiot proof, but since we're confident Largo is not an Idiot, apparently the safety measure weren't designed to protect him
What's unique to this thread, unlike a million other accident threads of ST, is that we have no real information on what happened so we can't go on saying what should have happened in hindsight, and blame various acts or people for the incident, only to be found wrong when the actual details some out.
Very sly, having this all so secret. I mean gyms are supposed to be idiot proof, but since we're confident Largo is not an Idiot, apparently the safety measure weren't designed to protect him
;-)
karl
I actually like it that way ;). The upshot is he got hurt. I don't really care about the accident report unless it's some kind of novel way to go about hurting yourself. I know we always need to know to protect others, yadda yadda yadda, but sometimes that info is just used to decide whether or not we should feel sorry and learn, or call somebody a gumbie.
The old honed Stonemaster John Largo
Slipped on plastic but didn’t very far go
Whilst pulling a wafer so mightily
with foot splayed wide on a rugosity
Ho Man! Does that ever hurt so.
I get the feeling this is a much worse than average open tib-fib injury.
I'm suspecting JL is still in some trouble and a lot of pain..
Details probably not important right now..
I'm loopy but one thing is clear - there's a lot of love in the climbingg world, and I must be getting the bulk of it over the last few days. I am embarrassed to have raised others on this site only to have them wish me good cheer. Thanks to all, from the bottom of my heart. You are my heros.
Hey Largo,
When I broke my ankle up at Suicide in 1985, I'm sure glad you were there to help me out. If there's anything I can do to reciprocate, please let me know. At least that explains why I didn't see you out at Josh this weekend... Hope you heal up fast.
“Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.”
Dare I say that we all pine for you, no we long for you. We need to hear the your dear sweet voice. You are our master of the stone, our Sage, our guide to all the thrilling adventures of a misspent youth.
Hearing of your mighty fall, we can only say NO, say it ain't so. Not our pillar of stone, you who are one of the gods, the leader cannot fall, no never.
We mere mortals may fall, but not our dear John, we are so sad to know that you to may be only flesh and blood and not made of mighty granite.
We long to know that you will soon rise again, you are our master of stone, the keeper of our words, the hero of our youth, long may you reign.
Dude, wait till you get some of those pity sticks under your arms. They're better than a half dozen puppys when women are around. Big, handsome and vulnerable goes a long way.
Milk it for all it's worth.
Jl I just spoke to Louie at the gym. He said you and I now
share a common injury though to different parts. Mine opened
hours after and prior to surgery he said he thinks yours opened
at the time of injury? I'm curious about the pain compared to
mine if it did open at the time of injury.
Mine was a 10 day stay within the hospital, however just a few years
after a family member of mine became an amputee with a 3-4 day stay.
Apparently in just a few years they improved upon the marrow infection
risk though I think he had a high chance of dying from infection with
other causes if he chose to risk re-attachment.
One of my docs said it's good to have calcium and vitamin d... before you break your bones. He said it's what you have in reserve that counts, taking it while healing really doesn't come into play. He also cautioned against NSAIDS like ibuprofen, etc., they supposedly impact bone healing negatively.
Bullwinkle,
my injury above was a broken wrist though doctors refer to it
as a open distal radius fracture. I was able to read the xrays
myself. When I broke my ankle I was not able to read the xrays
nor understand the crack until the doctor showed me.
I added my 2 cents to it and then re-posted this post that "Blueblocr" posted a couple weeks ago on the "religion" thread, but I thought it would also be relevant here. Probably what everyone already knows, but worth repeating...
Largo,
Your grace with the use of words is inspiring! I think it is great how you can elaborate so much on just one term. I can definitely read in your pens soul as being thoughtful, humble, patient, positive, provoking, mature and loving! Thank You! I can't wait for you to come over to the Lords side, You are surely to become a 21st-Century David!
Jus Thank'in!
BB
Very well said, and so true!
JL has always been that way. I haven't crossed paths with him since around '89/'90, but ever since I first met him at JT in the early 70's, he has always been the same.
This one afternoon I was having a difficult time on this popular boulder problem which was located near the entrance to Hidden Valley campground. It was the first time I had tried it, and after a half hour or so of flailing on it, I was about to give up. Suddenly Largo arrives with a couple of friends and he jumps out of the car and runs over and sends it in his tennis. Frustrated at how easy he made it look and by what little progress I had made on it, I give it one last all out effort. But I decide to try and mantle the crux crimp move, since I had zero success the obvious way. Somehow I pulled off the mantle, but that was as far as I got. I fell back to the ground, feeling pretty discouraged with myself.
But Largo changed all that in one sentence, "Wow, you just mantled that crimp, I've never seen anyone do that before, I know I couldn't!" And then off he went to rejoin his friends. I don't recall if I ever did get that boulder problem, but I never forgot those words of inspiration. They lifted me up and made me feel like I had just won the lottery or something. Like I was actually someone, not just a flailing n00b!
That was my first encounter with him, and it is just one example of what I came to recognize over the next few years as his everyday, honest and good natured self. Not so preoccupied with his own ego or reputation that he wasn't willing to lift someone else up at his own expense. I never forgot that first encounter, because it meant a way to much for me at the time to ever forget.
Thanks John, and please get well soon! Because there are a whole lot of noobs out here, young and old, that appreciate your presence a lot more than you will probably ever know!
The one time I was at that gym I climbed with Largo...a few topropes...
It was the day I turned 30....I was strong...it was a great day
I guess I am the same age now as Largo's was then...about 13 years ago now.....damn where does time go.....crazy
.
I remember thinking damn Largo is in shape for an ol guy.....LOL...now I know he wasn't old at all...lol
As I was an old bodybuilder type it was easy to see Largo had about the perfect build for any man - big wrists, narrow hips, V -shape, perfect height, solid, etc..
He was in shape...
I'm late to the game, but of course do want to wish you the best in as easy and smooth a rehab as possible. Very glad that the injury, bad as it is, is not as bad as it could have been.
These surgeries are common and not expensive, you people flip out
I have no idea except what i saw in the pic and a few tidbits..But he does have a severe open tib fib injury and is still in the hospital after about a week. He had emergency surgery and has at least two more surgeries in the future - maybe a fasciotomy, nerve damage, compromised circulation, infection, arterial vascular damage,severe bone damage,tendon rupture or laceration, severe muscle damage, osteomylitis, sepsis,severe swelling, pain....a week in the hosp in LA with multilpe surgeries...easy over 100 000 thousand etc
Tibfib fractures can be more complex than just placing a screw
Klaus you are pitiably misinformed about the cost of US health care. I had my right knee replaced and in so doing was in hospital for two nights (2.5 days). Nothing special happened other than the installation of a titanium-and-nylon prosthetic and the immediate activities in recovery. The total bill was $168,000. Johno's bill will be spectacular. It will be higher than mine by quite a bit and will come in, measurable in pounds of paper.
Klaus works in the health care industry right? Those guys can never tell you what anything costs. You don't even know the ace bandage you're applying cost $40 right?
but then again, he's not known for his bedside manner unless he's getting in the bed too
First time I met John was one night around 73 in camp 4. A group of us were messing around on some problems and John came up and challenged us to a tennis shoe bouldering contest, which he promptly won. Heal quick Largo.
Would not downplay this injury. Based the pattern of the fixator in the photo and what appears to be a Wound VAC hose coming from the medial side of the distal third of the tibia I would suspect this is an open (IIIB) pilon fracture of the tibia. Don't believe Kelly Cordes had an open component but you may want to look at his blog for the long rode to recovery from this type of injury even when it was closed.
As a long time weekender who has read many of his books and stores I am wishing John the best in his recovery.
Steve
My roommate had a rather unique set of personality traits: near-deaf, extroverted, and incontinent. I was annoyed rather than amused, and I requested being moved to a more peaceful location.
Didn't Kauk bust his tibia in a MC crash a while back and he's ok?
This summer, Ron told me his leg has never been the same since the crash. There's no such thing as an okay broken bone that you come back from 100%. Always something a little funky afterwards.
Could happen to anyone. Heal quick Largo!
Most health insurance policies have an "out of pocket" cap on payments. Somewhere in the $5000-10,000 range. This type of event, even to a master, is exactly why we need universal coverage. I almost started a health care rant, but this is not the time or place. Feel better John.
The early to mid 50s seems to be a perilous time for some climbers. I ripped my right biceps off the forearm at age 50 and was out for a year (gave up bouldering); Bachar, Whillans, Edlinger and others came to tragic ends, and D'Antonio suffered a heart attack. I'm sure there are other such stories. And now JL has come to grief. I hope his pain (physical and financial) is not too great. And, yes, someone please verify the validity of the fund raising site - I recently encountered the FBI-Moneypak virus, and, boy, did that announcement look official.
Thanks for all the support. I'l make it through this.
Any "fund" was done without my knowledge and while no doubt well-intended is not the way to go. Nobody just gives money to a slush pot for people to spend on hot rods and lap dances or whatever.
Such a plan if needed will be way later. But I appreciate the thought.
Thanks for all the support. I'l make it through this.
Any "fund" was done without my knowledge and while no doubt well-intended is not the way to go. Nobody just gives money to a slush pot for people to spend on hot rods and lap dances or whatever.
Such a plan if needed will be way later. But I appreciate the thought.
We can't figure out how you decked in the gym, and we're tired of all of Riley's inferences. [well meaning though you are, Riley, it would be nice to know the facts]
How 'bout we hear it from the horse's mouth? How bout it, John?
Cheers,
Pete
Big Wall Parvenu
Bimollalular tib-fib fracture survivor with tons of screws and plates and shit
When JB and JL came down to southern Colorado to visit me in the late 1970s and sat around the kitchen table, my wife later remarked "They were like young Greek Gods!"
Nobody just gives money to a slush pot for people to spend on hot rods and lap dances or whatever.
So maybe that is still the meds talking but it seems that JL is saying something like "If I won the Lottery, the first things I'd spend it on..." hahahah
So maybe that is still the meds talking but it seems that JL is saying something like "If I won the Lottery, the first things I'd spend it on..." hahahah
Besides, what's wrong with hot rods or lap dances?
I've been getting updates through Erin and others. Hope things continues to improve as fast as possible and as well as possible given the circumstances. Be sure to reach out if there is anything folks can do. Not sure if I should text you or email or what, as I'm not sure what you've got access to. Let me know if I can bring anything over (books, company, whatever).
Hope Dean's "Largofest" fundraiser happens anyway. Great excuse for a party. If you need the funds for bills, I'm sure legions would be willing to chip in; and if you don't, well, it's a good reason for a party when you are out of the hospital and on the mend.
Dear fellow climbers. John Long requested that we make a brief statement regarding his accident that occurred on 11/29/12 at approximately 8:30pm. John wanted us to confirm that he fell due to an unfinished knot, and suffered a compound fracture to the lower left leg. The rest of the details of the accident are John’s to tell.
Here is a direct quote from John, “Thank you to the Rockreation staff and members for keeping it together and not panicking in the face of a very scary situation. I consider it my best moment when I saw the gravity of the situation and was somehow able to keep it together and receive the support of the Rockreation Staff.”
On behalf of the Rockreation community, we want to wish our friend a speedy recovery, and let him know that we love him and are sending him good energy.
i once clipped an anchor set back and felt my harness part as is was just the velcro holding it.. I was lucky and snatched the anchors. Odds are tough to beat after so LONG..Wishing a rapid and stellar recovery!.
Heal up bro, it happens, or almost happens to everybody
I led the crux pitch on the Good Book once, and the pitch afterwards without my harness doubled back. It started getting loose when I was underclinging that big flake and looked down to see .....
Dear fellow climbers. John Long requested that we make a brief statement regarding his accident that occurred on 11/29/12 at approximately 8:30pm. John wanted us to confirm that he fell due to an unfinished knot, and suffered a compound fracture to the lower left leg. The rest of the details of the accident are John’s to tell.
Here is a direct quote from John, “Thank you to the Rockreation staff
and members for keeping it together and not panicking in the face of a very scary situation. I consider it my best moment when I saw the gravity of the situation and was somehow able to keep it together and receive the support of the Rockreation Staff.”
I did that once at Josh.
I led "Sandbag" 10c (Real Hidden Valley)and got on top, sat down to belay Margy and noticed my knot in an unfinished state.
I was glad I made it!
My close calls, bonehead manuevers, n00b-worthy clusterf*#ks, and profound errors in judgement are far too numerous to list. I've been fortunate to rack up no more than five or six months in the hospital over last 40 years due to climbing-related accidents. This does not include the four months I spent in a cast (1975) due to an ankle smasher I scored at Tahquitz in January.
Another reminder that even the best of us can make mistakes.
Those who believe otherwise should look up "hubris". The fact of recovery remains and I wish him best of luck. Strange how long the events of one second can effect you.
I figured it was a fall from the top.
The mechanism required to produce this type of injury is very high energy.
Plane crashes, high falls and automobile accidents where airbags deploy and save your life but not your lower legs
John obviously stuck the landing with his incredible balance and the lower tibia took all the energy of the fall.
These high energy pilon fractures are crazy injures. I have reduced a fracture at a plane crash site in which the talus was hanging out of the back of the ankle but the distal tibia was still intact
The tibia really has to take a direct axial load that literally hammers the tibia down onto the talus and basically crumples the bone.
The main problems with this injury are that the roof of the ankle joint ( the distal end of the tibia) is fractured as well as there being significant communited fracturing of the shin- bone - which you can imagine causes problems.
But even worse than this is the gross damage to the tissue involved in high energy pilon fractures. The tissue is so damaged that circulation and severe swelling needs to be dealt with and allowed to heal before fixing the fractures. Finally the bone of the lower tibia can be so obliterated that it is difficult to find enough of it to get it all back together in one functioning long bone.
The leg is left open to accomodate all the swelling - much like a fasciotomy and a wound vacume is put in place to suck of the extra fluid and swelling. To close the wound you need a skin graft from another area of the body, usually the hip, to be placed over the top of the open hole or slit in the side of the lower calf.
Of course the skin graft sucks almost as much as the initial wound.
This can be a leg threatening injury folks...it's why I say this is bad and very serious on a lot or levels - not just financialy, but emotionally and physically.
I've done it too, not finishing the knot that is. Luckily I got away with it. Noticed it when I was clipping the first bolt on London Calling in Josh. By then you have a piece or two of gear in and you're setting up for the crux. As I pulled rope to clip the bolt I happened to look down and saw the unfinished knot. I held the crimp with one hand, finished the knot with the other, pulled the crux without thinking and then bailed and went hiking for the rest of the day. The fall would only have been fatal in a fluke, but serious injury on that rocky landing was assured. Lucky me.
Largo, Hoh Man!! Heal up well. How is the food there? You need good food. Reach out if it sucks, maybe we can put together something...
I decked from the last clip up under the roof at Solid Rock San Marcos. Went for the full on rope-in-mouth-double-grab-lunge-oh-shit and landed flat ass on my back.
Luckily I was 19 at the time, and bouncy. Those annoying as f*#k pebbles they have there really do disperse energy.
Forget about unfinished knot, I left the ground without any knot, the rope just draped through my swami belt. Fortunately, the rope slipped away before I had any occasion to weight it. Unfortunately, I had to solo the rest of the route. Fortunately, I was able to do that.
I started leaning back on an anchor and realized, in the nick of time, that I wasn't clipped to it.
I once slipped on a pebble near the edge of No Escape Buttress on Mt. Moran and ended up on the edge with one leg hanging over.
On an extremely run-out climb, I arrived at easier ground although with a groundfall prospect. There was protection available, but the terrain was easy and I so no reason to bother, considering what I had just managed. But then at the last minute I decided to place a piece anyway. I took a step up from there, a foothold broke, and I fell two feet onto the piece I almost hadn't placed.
That's four death/dismemberment/paraplegia episodes avoided by dumb luck in going on 56 years, or an average of one every fourteen years. I've never repeated any of those dumb mistakes, which qualifies me for the title of "very experienced." Ha! I prefer that honorific to the rather less dignified "very lucky."
Climbing can be reasonably safe as long as you manage to pay attention to all the details. However, gravity never sleeps, and most of us do nod off from time to time.
Be careful, don't ever get into the superior frame of mind that it can't happen to you, and help out if you can when a comrade falls, remembering that it might well have been you.
Hey Miss Jennie, if you Married -John Long, you would be ...
Jennie Long Long. or..Jennie Two Long...
Jennie Two Long might have more euphony with my wee bit of Indian Ancestry, Nita… ha-ha-ha.
Sorry I didn’t see your post until now. I don’t think Largo and I are related…I think all Longs descendent via Great Britain are posterity of a Norman knight named John DeLong who came with William the Conqueror in the eleventh century.
I read somewhere than John’s ancestry was primarily from Ireland, though.
For the record I have no problem with the bowline (when it's finished and backed up) and I sure as hell never told John what he should or should not tie in with. Obviously if you were distracted (by a pretty girl or a moment of deep insight for instance) you could forget to finish any knot....but....is it easier to unfinish a bowline?
Regardless- John I hope you get the best care possilble and heal back stronger than ever,
1) The knot was not fully tied. It was an incomplete knot.
2) The last few inches of the rope were not terminated to a fisherman's knot or similar. This is probably more important for a bowline than a figure 8.
I was assuming 1) was the case here, though I could see a "loose" bowline that was "unfinished" causing a problem as well.
I use bowline for single pitch sport, basically so I can untie after repeated falls. I use a figure 8 for multipitch climbing, where I don't want the knot coming loose over time. Most of my partners do the same.
I prefer the bowline tie-in to the eight for most climbing, but I've noticed a tendency for bowline users (myself included) to pull the line through the harness while chatting pre-climb and not tie the knot immediately. I don't see this as often with figure eights, perhaps because the pass through the harness occurs in between the tying of the two eights and stopping feels like more of an interruption. Once through the harness it's easy to think you are tied in.
ppl always talk about "chatting" or bullshiting and losing focus while they are tying in
i started leading as a skinny 15-year-old and remember being too spooked to talk while racking up or tying in & just trying to concentrate on leading some scary steep 5.8 crack with wobbly hexes and slung stoppers...spooooky!
and to this day i still have the habit of never talking or making eye contact with others while I am preparing to climb
Sorry, to hear about your predicament, Largo. I try never to interrupt someone who is tying in. And typically check the climber I am belaying before they leave the ground.
Once you get the bill from the hospital, even with insurance, its going to be pricey.
I think this is a good reason for the annual bash at Todd Gordons; Todd willing. If not for a fundraiser but a celebration of us all making it this far.
I too have found myself at the top of a climb, leaning back to be lowered only to find my knot was only stuffed though my harness not even tied. Some lessons are cheaper than others!
My first partner used to do dumb sh#t that could get him killed on 2 out of 3 climbs....he used to put the rope through and then start talking and finish the knot later....shit happens and we all f*#k up...but he used to make it a regular part of tieing in ...I finally yelled at him......that he was going to f*#k up and forget and not finish his tie in. And asked him why he would introduce uncertainty into our climbing like that...finish tieing the f*#king knot, I said.....he argued with me and didn't see the big deal....about a month after this he did some f*#ked up thing where his brother was half way up a pitch following us and he had completly forgot to tie in or put him on belay...he was literally just pulling the rope up through his hands..wtf?..a grabbed the rope and threw his brother on belay and clipped my friend into my harness
Luckily he didn't climb with anyone but me ...so I looked out for him...and he quit climbing after we stopped being regular partners happy with the many excellent adventures we had had together..
The conveyance of "information" via the Net is so
damn fast when unweighted by care in checking facts ... .
Already, there is another "bowline came untied" article fueling
lines of R&I, no doubt building some preponderance of evidence
after the fatal UK case, about which RGold & I tried to point
out that certain key bits of information --i.p., whether in fact
any actual >>knot<< was tied-- were unknown.
HERE, we have connection to the (thankfully, surviving) user;
how about actual-factual details,
vs. the usual this-appears-to-support-my-agenda spewing?
so John pulled a "lynn hill" accident. lynn hill famously wrote about her accicent on buffet froid at buoux, another unfinished knot. i've seen the results in a gym first hand, women lowering from forty five feet up, and at 30 feet the knot pulls through and she decks on the peat gravel. nothing broken, but bruised along the entire side on her body.
I teach, practice, and preach that knot tying should be a ritual where we disregard distractions and tie our knot from start to finish. get out the candles and incense here. do it from start to finish, every time, or untie your knot completely and deal with the distractions before tying the knot. ss
I don't think that was lost on many of us, but it bears note.
Rather, THAT detail remains unstated by either Largo or his agents.
"unfinished knot" is an awkward (or "political'? :-) way to say "untied".
A fig.8 eyeknot with the tail only taken the first step into re-weaving
is unfinished (and might hold some forces); a bowline doesn't offer
such a half-way stage, really.
And, as noted, the Rock&Ice statement has it that a bowline came untied
--which requires starting out *tied*.
Why are the facts so hard to get,
and so easily lived without?
Long says that he ties in with a double bowline, but this time, distracted and tired after a long day of work, he didn't finish the knot. "I made the two bowline loops," he says, "and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."
Adds Long: "A lot of people are down on the bowline, but the same thing would have happened with a trace-8. I just wasn't paying attention."
Long says that he ties in with a double bowline,
but this time, distracted and tired after a long day of work,
he didn't finish the knot. "I made the two bowline loops,"
he says, "and threaded the rope through my harness,
but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."
Adds Long: "A lot of people are down on the bowline,
but the same thing would have happened with a trace-8.
I just wasn't paying attention."
I'm quoting a quote above; and that quote comes from ... ?
Well, this seems to shoot a hole in the already-multiply-cited
R&Ice assertions about the cause,
but it's an odd-sounding story, IMO : making the double turns
and THEN reeving the line
--presumably one's holding these
don't-stay-formed-by-themselves-turns in one hand and,
so, having to reeve single-handedly (a plus to the bowline is,
after all, that one can form the entire knot AFTER making its eye)--
and then somehow letting loose of the first-formed part,
which is a sort of positive act, rather than the omission of one!?
Or did the *rabbit* make it around to poke its head out
of the double hole, AND THEN ... <distraction>?! At this
point, the corresponding fig.8 has just hope of an advantage,
as would a "water bowline" (that clove-hitch-based variant),
given enough tail pulled through.
I teach, practice, and preach that knot tying should be a ritual where we disregard distractions and tie our knot from start to finish. get out the candles and incense here. do it from start to finish, every time, or untie your knot completely and deal with the distractions before tying the knot. ss
How many times do ppl have to deck before people learn that they will potentially die, that this becomes a 'religious ceremony' before they climb.
Check your knot before you launch!!!! And yer f*#king harness straps! F*#k!
I was climbing a lot of plastic BITD, at City Rock in Berkley.
We all were gunning to red point this one climb we created. I was having a good day and sent it first, then decided to have a go avoiding one key crimp.
While tying in with a figure eight I started the follow through and a very lovely lady interrupted me with a flirtatious question. I stopped tying my knot said something clever and started up the wall, avoided the crimp and dynoed for the top, thinking in my head, I had little chance of sticking it.
By some miracle I stuck it, looked down to see if the young lady was watching and noticed my knot was almost completely untied. Shocked I mantled and finished the knot and lowered.
Since then I do three checks for my tie in knot, one at the base of the route, the second right before starting and the third after the first few moves. This is what I taught my students as well.
My thought was if you missed one or two of the checks you still have a chance.
For the record I used the bowline for years, had it come undone twice and know three people personally who have suffered the fate of Largo.
Use a figure eight, it's completely bomber.
The bottom line is the more you climb the better your chances of screwing up no matter how good you my think you are.
Yes, well-known climbers sometimes make elementary mistakes, such as not tieing properly, or getting lowered off the end of the rope. Such as Scottish climber Dave MacLeod.
It turned out, the 6b+ slab was quite long and the rope I was using which wasn’t mine was a little short. As I got lowered off, the rope ran out about 6-8 feet above the small ledge at the start of the route proper. Neither of us noticed in time and so I plummeted, clipping the ledge with my foot and somersaulting down the turfy scrambling ground below, eventually coming to a violent stop wrapped around a birch tree on the slope below.
As I was flying head over heels I was wondering what the hell was going on! Normally I always take a long rope to the crag so rope length issues don’t arise and it hit me that the borrowed rope I was using must’ve been too short and the end had gone through the belay device. For a minute or two I thought I might have got away with it but very quickly my right foot started to get bigger and severely object to being weighted.
(A) For the record I used the bowline for years,
(B) had it come undone twice and
(C) know three people personally who have suffered the fate of Largo.
By A, do you mean the simple/basic/"common" bowline,
without any extension for security? --so, not a double bowline, water bowline, b. _+ half-hitches or strangle knot ("half a grapevine/DFish"), or "Yosemite finish"
And re B, this was something you noticed --ACK!-- while on the sharp end, climbing? Did you then re-tie the same knot, or do something further/different?
For C, this point has been what was so unclear (and even the latest explanation sounds a little peculiar) : at this point, the general claim is that >>no knot was tied<<, and not that condition "A" obtained for Largo. So, are you saying that intended bowlines were somehow left undone (how?) or that maybe there was a case of a fig.8 eyeknot left undone (as with you)?
- - - - - - - -
For the gym climbing, I can see that adopting a procedure --i.e., actual physical movements-- of always beginning by the climber sitting back into the line so to both check that her knot is tied (and inspect on doing) AND that the belayer is set would be good to establish, though with so much line out, it might take some walking back away from the wall.
For the record way back when JL and I use to guide together. We would debate about the bowline versus the figure 8 even back then.
The Bowline I used was a double with a follow through back up and then a finishing knot. With all that in still came untied twice. Mind you I climbed 200-300 days a year from age 14 to 38, so that's a lot of knot tying.
Now I rig for a living working close to the same amount of days. So, basically I've tied and used knots more than most people as I'm now 49.
Basically a bowline is a knot that never gets tight, and I use it almost exclusively rigging, especially when dealing with high loads, or wet ropes. Because if you're a half way good rigger your knots are not dragging on rock, truss or anything else.
The figure 8, just gets tighter and tighter when wighted, making it impossible to untie after a big load.
Seems to me the figure 8 is the best knot to tie in with period, that is just plan fact. But if you're hanging on your rope and working sport climbs it becomes a big pain to untie. I can see why people use the bowline and it is why I used it, but having it untie, especially with new ropes made me quit.
I will not allow my students, guides or people I advice in the military to use the bowline for tying in under any circumstance.
JL accident doesn't have anything to do with bowline and/or the figure 8, he just plan forgot to finish his knot. Something I've done and many others also have.
I feel that using the wrong knot for the wrong job is a quick way to have a problem.
Now this is my opinion, based on a lifetime in dangerous climbing and work environments, and I really will not debate it anymore, suffice to say, bowlines are not the safest knot to tie in with, period. That's just a simple fact.
I was at city rock just about to start the crux of a 5.12 that I was probably going to fall on but the rope was dragging on a hold; so I start flipping the rope to get it away from the hold and the rope flys off my harness because I didn't finish the knot. Now I always pull on the knot before I start and pull on the knot before I lean back to be lowered.
Adam, that was a complete botch job. The accident had nothing whatsoever to do with the type of knot and you as the author take away all the wrong lessons. Further, you arrive at the same wrong conclusions from the fatal accident in England. Duane then pipes in with uninformed personal bias and all to what end? Not Outside's best effort.
Elsewhere, I also noted that, in the zeal to blame the knot, those authors skipped the chance to make the important lesson about taking precautions.
I also wish that someone in the UK would make a complaint about the coroner who came to the unfounded conclusion about the Rothman death. As an official report, that should be circumspect, not speculative.
On a certain level, the "8" versus bowline knot is a metaphor for a fundamental aspect of climbing.
If you choose to use a bowline to tie in, you are putting yourself in a slightly riskier position in that failure to tie it correctly could be fatal. Failure to tie an 8 correctly could be fatal also, it's just less likely.
Kinda like leading a route rated R vs one rated PG.
The R rated route has its advantages and aesthetic appeal, but demands more focus, with a possibly a high price to be paid for the lack thereof.
Climbing in gyms promotes a different mindset - one more suited to leads rated PG. Music blasting, bathrooms nearby, snacks and chilled beverages, hot chicks lingering in skin tight clothing, padded floors, yoga classes, fitness machines and weights, holds everywhere, topropes galore, rock jocks strutting their stuff - in short, a perfect place for tying a figure 8, and having a girlie or three take a good long look at it to make sure it's done right before casting off.
The Bowline I used was a double with a follow through back up and then a finishing knot.
Let me understand this : by "double", is that the "2 rabbit holes" version often given the name and featured in the Outside article? (as opposed to two eyes, sometimes getting the name)
And the "follow through back up", hmmm, something akin the the "Yosemite finish"? (as opposed to what Healyje has advocated, making a 2nd eye through the harness from a dbl.bowline base, reeving the tail through the knot and tying off with a strangle knot to the main line)
And the finishing knot? --the simple overhand is often shown in instructions, but that doesn't garner much faith at security IMO!
With all that in still came untied twice. Mind you I climbed 200-300 days a year from age 14 to 38, so that's a lot of knot tying.
Thanks for the history.
But twice out of all this time is --yes, twice too much had you fallen-- enough to make one wonder Why...? And to think that over two dozen years of continual climbing it would seem one heckuva *test* of the tie-in, between those failures : who'd think "nah, still not sure about dis knot!" with all that?! (unless one had seen it loosening, more often, though staying tied)
That IS a lot of knot tying; and a lot of knot not-untying.
What sort of duration was on the untyings? --in a single pitch?
Now I rig for a living working close to the same amount of days. So, basically I've tied and used knots more than most people as I'm now 49.
And have no doubt seen difference >>per material<<.
The figure 8, just gets tighter and tighter when weighted, making it impossible to untie after a big load.
There might be ways to redress the over-tightening of a fig.8 --i.e., to use the fig.8 base and then finish it differently. (And, for that matter, there is a symmetric version of the "fig.9" which should give similar security without the over-tightening (though I've seen it jam in HMPE, but that material is of another world!). This an unfamiliar knot and a little more complicated; it has the shared benefit to the fig.8, though, of also being tiable in the bight (i.e., no ends).)
Seems to me the figure 8 is the best knot to tie in with period, that is just plan fact.
There's more than has met the eye re contenders, as just noted.
I feel that using the wrong knot for the wrong job is a quick way to have a problem.
Not to come off too argumentative, but your long history at least didn't come to a "quick" problem, as noted above! (And there will be those others who claim "never failed". But even infrequent untyings are rightly disturbing. Hmmmm ... .)
What I'm reading here is if JL had a partner that day willing to stop him and check his harness and tie in he would be just fine given his partner knew what a bowline looks like finished or he asks JL to make sure his rope and harness were right?
Safety check your partner ever time no matter who they are or aren't.
The figure 8, just gets tighter and tighter when weighted, making it impossible to untie after a big load.
there's a secret to loosening up a weighted figure-8. slip one of the outer loops. it's easy to do, no matter how tight the knot has gotten--just bend the loop, slip it by pivoting it, and then you'll be able to force the tail back out quite easily--and the knot is untied.
the best reason for tying a figure 8, i think, is that it has a built-in mental insurance you don't get with the bowline. the knot is easy to master, and there's a pleasing, familiar "balance" to it when it's done properly. this becomes a real safety habit over time, especially when you're tying in hundreds of times a year.
i knew this thread would devolve into a technical discussion like this.
Well, said and correct, maybe we should write a book together, LOL.
Both times the my bowline came untied was on the North Overhang on Intersection. Go figure.
Basically, if you're using a bowline it better not be rubbing against the rock face.
Tony, wrong my man, I could write the Kama Sutra of knot tricks, believe me. When my friend fell a 100 feet off the Shield they had to cut the knot out.
Any trick to keep the figure from getting tight is really taking away from the advantage of a figure 8.
Silver, I always teach my students to check both their figure 8 and their partners, because your partners harness and knot are as important as your own. But at the end of the day you're ultimately responsible for your own knot.
I have become a big believer in having my partner check my harness and knots every single time. It takes only a moment and shows that we are paying attention to each other. Before I lower off, I glance at my knot to double check it.
Generally I prefer the figure 8 for tying in because it is easier to quickly see whether it is tied correctly or not. A bowline requires closer inspection to see whether it is correct and it is much easier to tie incorrectly. A bowline tied incorrectly can fail completely, while a figure 8 tied incorrectly just tends to be somewhat less secure.
That said, I use bowlines a lot and really like them. If I really need a secure knot, I use a bowline follow through. It cannot come undone and is still easy to untie after many falls. There are probably a number of variations of bowlines that are very secure, but they require a bit more experience to tie and people have enough trouble tying figure 8s.
Coz states that bowlines have failed on him a few times in his long career. I wonder if the knot itself was to blame, then the failure rate would be higher, but...from a practical view, I don't think it matters. If Coz with his experience, miss tied the knot a few times in 40 years, then that is just as big a problem as if the knot failed when correctly tied.
To be fair, we should try to compare real world failure rates across different tie in methods.
As climbers we usually have another person nearby who can double check our knots. We should appreciate that and take advantage of it.
edit: bowlines rubbing, catching against the rock?... yeah, I can see how that might create more problems for a normal bowline than for a figure 8.
@Coz: So,just to be clear, you had a fisherman's finish/backup AND the bowline itself come untied? You have huge experience, and I have no reason to doubt you, but is that the combo you're talking about? When I used to use a (double) bowline, I always finished with the fisherman's. I can't imagine any scenario in which everything comes untied.
professional riggers always have something extra to say about this stuff.
when i was on the SCMA board, a fellow board member, jim matthews, whom you might know, coz, since he worked for years rigging in hollywood and teaching stage management, got on our case about the clove hitch. the dear clove hitch, the quick, handy, fail-safe tie-in knot, no? not for jim's money. he'd seen it fail, he said, and we argued endlessly whether to be teaching this in our safety course.
ironically, i cornered largo about the matter one day at rockreation. he tied a couple of quick clove hitches to demonstrate how handy and fail-safe it was for a belay tie-in. "what's wrong with that?" he asked. i couldn't have agreed more.
but in guide training they fussed about dressing it properly. i also heard pro guides differ over whether the bowline ought to be backed up. i also discovered that my midwestern sailor way of tying a bowline--two opposing loops for a non-slip bow line for a boat--wasn't acceptable for a climber's loaded bowline. you live and learn.
I love the clove hitch ( can you tie it one handed? ), but in my guides training I was taught always load bearing strand against the spine and back it up wth an overhand on a bight.
Donni, yes all knots work if properly tied, but not if improperly applied.
One thing pro climbers, guides and riggers love to do is debate knots and when to use them.
Largo was always a big bowline fan.
My friend had a bowline back up come undone on a new rope and crushed both heals.
The bowline knot I had come undone twice, was on the North Overhang, it was properly tied, as I had a ritual when guiding to do a big dog and pony show about the tie in. I only failed to tie in properly once, at a gym, because I was talking to and trying to impress a very lovely lady.
I tire easy of these debates, so to each his own, be safe.
"Indulge in the kindness of others for a while and be good to yourself while you heal. :-)"
Thanks for that line. I'm learning that such indulging is the highest form of humanity - so long as it runs both ways. Life makes little sense without compassion to sustain it. When one of us goes down - it matters little who - we somehow revert to being divine supports for each other. That's been my experience in this hospital bed, and it has transformed my spirit.
As mentioned, all the orthopedic stuff is done. Now (tomorrow) they transplant a thin slice of muscle over the hole in my shin from where the bone came through. A tricky operation, but with a high success rate here at UCLA.
Hope to have good news soon about this whole fandango.
Love each other. There isn't anything else worthwhile.
I went thru a very serious tib fib break in 2007, and I was not smiling like that within the first week, so I can safely say you will be fine. I did make a full recovery though, and became a real climber again this year.
Not sure if I've missed it, as I don't follow all the threads on the Taco, but has anything come out on the cause more than "unfinished knot"? I had a friend tell me that he'd read that the knot *was* finished, but there was no backup tied. I do not want to spread rumors, and if nothing has been said, that's fine. I would just like to know if what i was told is true.
Well John now that you have joined the middle aged gimp club (I am a member)
you can help petition for a handicap system like in golf. A 10a could become 10c if you have arthritis or 11b if missing a limb. Cosmic Cragsman might rate an 11a once his shoulder heals a bit.
Todd Gordon will get nothing for his hair-challenged situation but taking care of 3 young kids would rate a 1 letter boost.
I made the two bowline loops, and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree.
So "unfinished" in the sense that he began climbing before finishing tying the knot, which means there was no knot at all.
NOT "unfinished" in the sense that the bowline was tied but none of the possible bowline back-ups were applied.
The Bowline-Instrument-of-Death crowd leaped on this as an example of the danger of bowlines, but exactly the same type of accident might have (and has) occurred with a figure-eight.
Sorry R-Gold... and you can back off the bold buttons there. I actually backtracked looking for John's (personal) explanation before posting. I was trying to avoid the mistake I just made, and evidently didn't go back far enough and scrutinizing your re-post was off the radar. It didn't register that it was a direct quote from John for some reason.
Hope John has a good recovery BTW.
Edit @ rGOLD: Viva la Chopolette! If John had been using like.. 12 knots to tie into that gym anchor, this tragic accident never would have happened. ;)
JTM, I got the quote from a Rock and Ice update, http://tinyurl.com/RandI-Largo-Update. At this point I don't recall whether it or a link was ever posted to one of the two threads here.
Sorry about the bold-faced shouting; at the moment it seemed to be called for, given that accurate information was available and had just been provided.
I can't fathom why you bring up the Chopolette. Ha---I had to search to discover it is something I posted. It has absolutely nothing to do with tying in and hasn't the faintest connection to John's accident.
For anyone whose interest is now unfortunately piqued, the Chopolette was part of a now seven year-old discussion initiated by Largo on rc.com on self-equalizing anchors. Even at the moment of proposal, it was clear that there would be too much friction in the "equalizing module" for it to perform effectively. It was a concept proposal. I went so far as to convince Mal Daly to make up a version for me modeled on the Trango Alpine Equalizer, but that prototype too seemed to have too much friction to be effective, and in any case none of my friends would use it.
We now know, because of further testing, that three-anchor self-equalizing systems in general perform no better than fixed-arm systems, which themselves equalize quite poorly. The Chopolette and all the other delightful inventions in that extensive thread were doomed to a fully-deserved irrelevancy.
As for the crack about "like...12 knots," the sad fact is that John's accident would have been prevented by one knot, the one he never finished tying.
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