Ashira and 14c- Thoughts?

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toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:31am PT
Whether it is rock climbing or tennis, this little girl did something amazing. Just appreciate it.


Yes sir.


on the other hand, where do you draw the line?


seriously, you could get a two-year-old child, get him into a serious muscle conditioning program, 20 warm bottles of Muscle Milk per day, hourly applications of oily Pec Nectar to his entire body, really get him buffed up for a world-shattering strength to weight ratio, then set him loose on Action Directe, free solo, tiny chalk bag. Nothing more stubborn and determined than a two-year-old child, right?


that would be some friggin AWESOME shitt...onsight flash!


Respect THAT

-
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:35am PT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:36am PT
ratings are a necessary part of the sport in the sense that they provide the knowledge that, in former times, would come from a knowledgeable local, a guide, who would lead climbers on the climb.

we use the word "guide" to mean the written description of the routes, and a part of that description is the answer to the question: how hard is it?

it isn't so surprising that the degree of difficulty be turned around to indicate the accomplishment of the climber, and it is a short hand way of determining a hierarchy of sorts in a group of climbers. In the sense that climbing is a sport, the ratings may mean something.

In the other sense of climbing the ratings mean very little, climbing is not a sport, but often a means to adventure where what is at risk is the life of its participants. That sense of climbing does not fit into our perception of it as sport, though the risk is a big part of climbing, and the consequences of a fall the frontier between sport and adventure. It is a frontier that we all ask ourselves about crossing, every time we go out, what are we willing to ante up?

So I'd say as a sport, it is very interesting to watch the progression of difficulty among the youth. Whether or not someone stays in climbing seems a strange metric, an elite athlete has only so many years at the peak of their sport. Once that peak has been reached the motivation to continue can be elusive to find, especially to maintain a level near that peak. It's not impossible, but it is rare.

From my observation that period for climbing seems to be around 10 years, and happens in the late teens to late twenties. At that time, it seems, the climbing life starts to dim and other interests start to become more important. It struck me looking at the audience at the Face Lift this year, how many old climbers were there and how many young... and not only that, but the unawareness of each of those audiences of the other. But of the old, there were few compared to the numbers of their youth.

In terms of risk, it is a part of any adventure, and certainly one wouldn't expect an athlete to undertake some of the adventures even a weekender alpinist might decide to take, no level of accomplishment protects the participants who venture into the realm where many random occurrences could threaten life.

It is also natural to take what we learn from the sport of climbing into the domain of the climbing adventure, those athletes who get interested in the sport and go on to a lifelong participation in climbing would naturally push up the level of all of climbing, and in so doing up the adventure ante. But we don't even know why we do it ourselves, how could we decide what a teenager might do with their amazing skills.

So we can all appreciate athletic accomplishment, and even try to learn something from those accomplishment from the people who perform them. Bottom line is we all like the movement over stone, we like doing it in the flow, in the moment when we do not have to be conscious of it, where there seems to be little effort, and we are transported into a place few people venture.

Whether that is high on a granite cliff or overcoming a 15 foot boulder, we recognize that state and we seek it out.

We like it, we have fun with it, and at some point, we can leave the guide at home and go out and enjoy climbing without the artificialities.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:45am PT
Why is it that folks feel threatened if somebody, even if it's a young girl, can pull harder than they can?

I think the grading system is OK. Think about it--surely Ashima can tell the difference between grades. Put her on a .12a, a .12c, a .13b, she can probably tell you which one is harder than the next.

Certainly, she might have a hard time on overhanging fist cracks, but if she desired to send those, she probably could train to do so.

Relax, it's just us folks out having a time of it all. I applaud the focus and strength that it requires to send at such a high level.

And yeah, I'm jealous.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:48am PT

Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.

.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:05am PT
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.

Adam Ondra has climbed multi-pitch 5.14s in the Ratikon that were hand-bolted on lead with huge runouts, so I doubt he'd have a huge problem with some of the stuff you are describing. It's like some people here think these climbers are just campusing every move and that footwork and technique means absolutely nothing.

Not to mention that the climbers currently operating at the highest level in trad - Dave MacLeod, James McHaffie, Alex Honnold, etc. - all pull 5.14+ on bolts. The translation of sport climbing power and technique to physically easier but mentally tougher trad or trad-ish routes is not as alien as many would like to believe.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:09am PT
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.

I bet your dad can beat up her dad too.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:10am PT
Adam Ondra started out on hard Czech Rock Classics prior to even seeing a gym.

I bet your dad can beat up her dad too.

Negative!

My Pop's ashes are scattered behind my home up in Piute Canyon below White Mtn.
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Chapel Hill, NC
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:18am PT
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.

IMO it is much easier to gain the mental game to climb runnout faces a couple of number grades below your max than it is to get your max up into the 14's. I have no doubt that you could teach a young 5.14 sport climber to climb Bacher-Yerian faster than you could teach the average 5.11 trad climber to climb 5.14

Reality is, however, that most young 5.14 sport climbers have no interest whatsoever in runnout trad climbs two numbers below their max.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:19am PT
I think the grading system is OK. Think about it--surely Ashima can tell the difference between grades. Put her on a .12a, a .12c, a .13b, she can probably tell you which one is harder than the next.

I've thought about it and disagree, at least in some cases (although in most cases, you're probably right).
I imagine that Ashima could get shut down on certain boulder problems that are V2 or V3, if they are entirely dependent on reach and have no intermediate holds (obviously she's not going to need much of an intermediate hold, but she's going to need something). When you hear about the super hard problems that short, light children (or very small adults) do, you don't necessarily hear about the "relatively easy" (for an average size man) things that they can't do.

When you reduce the difficulty of a climb/boulder problem to a single number, that number's not going to be the same for climbers of vastly different dimensions. This is most obvious for things like pure cracks and very reach dependent moves.

That's not to say that she isn't a "better" or "stronger" climber than 99.whatever % of climbers--I'm sure she is.
Silver

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:22am PT
Man I hope she doesn't read some of the sh#t people are writing here.

Seems with the wealth of knowledge and experience here she should be getting some great advice on how to become a well rounded climber enjoying all aspects of the sport, and in all venues if desired.

I hope this little gal gets a good mentor to teach here the ropes of trad because if you can climb 14c and you cant get up classics like Astroman or the Rostrum that to me would be sad.

I would also inject anyone who has been around and was already a climber when the climbing gym came to be knew this day would come, and perhaps not as soon but once I started seeing the kids in the gym I knew that all the hard routes fully grown men had done that were on the hardest scale would fall to these kids in their teen years versus their late twenties or thirties... That would a grade of 13a being the top of the grade then.

It will not be long before some young girl or boy sends a route a guy like Sharma has worked his whole life to do. I personally hope it happens for the simple reason its called Progression. Amen because stagnation is well not interesting to us its seems in the climbing world.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:26am PT
I hope this little gal gets a good mentor to teach here the ropes of trad because if you can climb 14c and you cant get up classics like Astroman or the Rostrum that to me would be sad.

Or "Hall of Mirrors" maybe.....
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:38am PT
Yeah I'd be sad too if I were 11 years old and couldn't get up Astro-man or Hall of Mirrors. Especially when 10 year old just did the rostrum as his first multi-pitch First crack climb.. No falls

ROTFLMAO
Silver

Ice climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:46am PT
Im not saying she has to do it now at any age in particular but i am saying if your as young as she is and you climb that hard on sport routes it would be sad if in your life you were not able to climb such classics because you were not mentored in a particular style of climbing.

Chief the list is long you get that.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Oct 30, 2012 - 09:53am PT
Well I will agree that I get more of a kick out of seeing that Kid who did the Rostrum at age 10 than I get out of hearing another 5.14. Or the girl who climbed RNWF with her dad. (interesting same mentor involved)

Probably because 5.14 is something I can't relate to really. That's my own failure of vision not theirs for sure.

It's all good and I hope as these kids go on they get to enjoy all that climbing can be with such incredible talent and early dedication.

Mind blowing possibilities it seems.
BruceAnderson

Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:01am PT
What gets lost in all this a bit is just how hard thses routes really are. Like always the best climbers make the impossible look easy. To me grades get exponetially harder. It's not linear. I mean there's such a huge difference between say 13a and 13c. Even more so between a 14a and a 14d for crying out loud.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
SLO, Ca
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:01am PT
Good for her.

Kids that crush threads always draw the "she can't climb cracks" or "let's see her on some 70s runout slab" comments. What BS. Crack climbing is just climbing not some mysterious art--put your hand or finger in the crack and pull. 99% of the climbing population does not climb dangerous run out climbs so I've never understood why they are always upheld as some general measurement of ability.

My only concern if it was my kid would be muscle and tendon development.
splitter

Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:02am PT
I recall watching Chris Lindner lead Robbins Crack (10a) for his first time. He was 4 y.o. (87-88?). And soloed it shortly therafter. And a month or two after that, he sends Starving In Stereo (12a/crack). Lead his first 13a sport at the age of 9! And his first 14c at 16. So, he continued on to climb harder and harder stuff. And is still stoked about climbing.

"Climbing, in my opinion, is the coolest sport in the world, and I enjoy helping people realize that." Chris Lindner (2010)

So, it seems as though CL was & is having a lot of fun climbing. That is what it is all about, having fun. Hopefully, so is Ashira. And, imo, that is all we should be concerned about (in regards to her) that she is having a lot of fun, ... eh? So, what's with all the drama?
Baggins

Boulder climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:10am PT
First of - amazing stuff. These japanese (little) women seem to be leading the world, and I am thrilled at the prospect of seeing the sport develop with their efforts.

I dont understand this comment:

Fabulous accomplishments, but the ratings were developed for adult males with adult male strength-to-weight ratios, not ratios which likely run quite significantly higher than that.

Ummm. There's nothing wrong with the ratings. Turns out, being small and thin is the most ideal body shape for climbing very very hard routes and boulders.

Ratings are body shape (hand size) dependent for crack climbs of course, but thats not relevant to Ashimas climbing (yet).

I understand that old school tradsters cant understand what 5.14+ means. I certainly cant. But its fair to say that most of these cutting edge sport climbers could probably make el cap look like a walk in the park, if sufficiently motivated.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:23am PT
Jesus Christ this thread is full of sh*t bags.

There's a girl. She's 11. She's strong.

Not suffering through 10a doesn't make her cool?

No, it makes you an out of shape, no technique slob. (unless it's OW, then suffering may occur.)

I don't get why so many sh*theads on this forum bag on people who climb 5.15 / vHARD. "No skill" "no suffering" "plug gear" for f*cks sake. Everyone has different interests.

Bouldering.
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