Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 29, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
So, as you all have no doubt read, an 11 year old girl from New York is crushing 14c. This is hugely thought provoking. One side of me is incredibly impressed and entirely inspired that one so young could be so persistent and motivated. All advantages of small stature notwithstanding, she must have an incredibly cool head and wonderful technique. But another side says it points out the invalidity of climbing ratings, the transiency of the strength to weight ratio of pre-adolescents (Cicada where are you?) and the wonder of if an 11 year old truly understands the consequences of a life threatening sport. The sending spree at least deserves a thread in contemplation. Help me solidify my thoughts. I realize that this will remain a remarkable feat regardless of my/our opinions-- it just crys out for deeper contemplation.
Having climbed with and around her, I can vouch for her psych and drive. She crushes in the boulders and now apparently on the ropes as well. She pushes herself very hard and it shows. On the same trip she did two 14a's and I think one was a flash.
I hope she does not burn out like so many kids before her.
Her abilities do call into question the nature of ratings, but so do the abilities of really tall climbers and super strong climbers and all other anomalies in the climbing world. We all have styles of climbing we are better at, those abilities do not change the ratings, why should hers?
She hadn't even climbed a 5.14a before and she sent her first in two tries, and then flashed her next. Then she redpointed 5.14c in 4 tries and climbed another 14c by the end of the week.
Fabulous accomplishments, but the ratings were developed for adult males with adult male strength-to-weight ratios, not ratios which likely run quite significantly higher than that.
You may have made the same observations about Beth Rodden and Katie Brown when they were sub-100lb teenagers onsighting 5.13 and 5.14 respectively.
Both grew up, put on weight and continued to set the bar: Beth with an ascent of yosemite's hardest crack (still unrepeated) and Katie with a rare (is hers the only one?) onsight of RNWF of Half Dome (5.12).
Chris Sharma was also pulling off amazing feats as a 110lb 13-year old. He continues to break barriers as a burly grown-up.
I'll bet Ashima is a special climber of the same ilk as the aforementioned, and if she stays psyched will be pushing the standards in a few years as a bigger girl.
If you disagree, name a top climber who wasn't a talented (and light statured) youngster.
No, no, I hope she goes on to greatness. But it is she a "better climber" than, say, Ueli Steck, because she climbs a higher rating? Some would say yes.
Edit: I remember my satisfaction and sense of self esteem as I climbed my "first 5.10 ..11..12etc" and how I felt at one point that it was a measurement of my self-worth. I don't mean to imply that I'm above the ratings game. Is there a better way of rating that encompasses size advantages/disadvantages, commitment, length , dangerousness, deviousness versus straightforwardness, or ambient conditions ? Does it matter because its all contrived bullshit in our heads and the rocks are the rocks? What is the yardstick by which we measure success? I guess, as I get older, it's the friends I make through climbing and the feeling of power and beauty. Maybe Ashima feels that way already, and is 3 decades ahead of me in that regard also.
Yea, I wanna see her climb supercrack & see how that goes.
Many don't even bother with 5.10 & 5.11 anymore it seems. 5.12 is the new 5.8 for kids these days. Virtually none of these little phenoms seem to give two turds about pluggin gear, baggin peaks, or suffering either, WTF?!
Difficulty &/or grades is the endgame for the next generation it would appear.
Amazing stuff they are doing, I'd love to see these little kids crushing in person.
edit: good point below Jim, the kids are unstoppable!
Love to see her get on and flash Raliegh Collins's A-Hills .12a blank clean face testpiece or Henny's new totally blank clean face .13+ project next to my line in Pine Creek.
Well, when it comes to women's gymnastics, perhaps the nearest analogy, most of the best competitors are younger than or just at puberty. Why should it be much different for types of climbing where gymnastic/athletic ability is the key?
Climbing is not gymnastics or acrobatics - although it is being reduced to that..
In all honesty the athetic feats and training in both of these endeavors far surpass anything in climbing.
This is why bolts suck and it brings the life style choice, that is climbing, and encompasses adventure, travel, instincts, exploration, skill and judgement down to the level of any other stupid goal oriented human endeavor. Follow the f*#king leader...yawn
I only speak for myself..
I am sure it means many things to many people...
But it all seems like a bore as of late..
Hikers and explorers have far more soul....it seems..
So Mirko, what are you climbing tomorrow?
Me: My first multi-pitch and my first crack climb
Dan & Luke: Which one?
Me: The Rostrum!
Dan & Luke: Really?? Dude! Good luck....
No one claims that 16 year old gymnasts aren't really at their peak on account of their size. No one asks to watch the upsized weight class instead for more valid tricks.
Yea, I wanna see her climb supercrack & see how that goes.
I wanna see you send 2 5.14C's. What makes you think she can't accomplish that if she put her efforts and mind into it?
This number sh#t is so f*#king boring..
Makes me want to quit the sport and be a hiker....
Others interpretations and goals in climbing should never, ever influence you. Why should you give a f*#k what other people are inspired by, if it doesn't affect you? What are you, Republican?
. Others interpretations and goals in climbing should never, ever influence you. Why should you give a f*#k what other people are inspired by, if it doesn't affect you?
No affection - just an opinion
It is a subtle thing..
But alas, it is important....
I think...
The cult of it all....
And Apine Cult seems even more stupid...
Not what I am taking about....
A friend of mine who climbs with her and some of her family members says she is already starting to burn out, with all the pressure put on her.
Every year you hear stories about those kids who go to college at the age of 12 or whatever. But you never hear stories about amazing discoveries, or Nobel Prizes (or other prizes) won by these wunderkinds. Something at somepoint goes wrong.
Hopefully, she finds something to keep herself going with the sport. Simply being good is not enough motivation in the long run.
Hey Gdavis not saying she couldn't, just saying I'd like to see it. I think it's interesting how so many of the kids that are blowing up the climbing world are so focused on this one aspect of what climbing has to offer generally, difficulty. When/if they do learn about and endeavor to trad/alpine/wall climb its always interesting to see how it goes. A lot of kid rock stars go on to forge their own path.
Actually you know what, I'd rather see her coach Obe on supercrack.
> Every year you hear stories about those kids who go to college at the age of 12 or whatever. But you never hear stories about amazing discoveries, or Nobel Prizes (or other prizes) won by these wunderkinds. Something at somepoint goes wrong.
This is a pretty different subject - going to college at age 12.
There are child prodigy scholars who don't burn out, though.
An example is John von Neumann.
He went to school at regular grade level (at the insistence of his father) but had private tutors so he could learn independently.
"As a 6 year old, he could divide two 8-digit numbers in his head.
By the age of 8, he was familiar with differential and integral calculus."
He made a lot of discoveries in so many fields, and didn't burn out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann
He didn't win a Nobel Prize, but there's no Nobel Prize in Math, and there wasn't one in Econ when he was alive.
When the kid solos the north twin, comes back to civilization with a 1,000 yard stare and says nothing,(no photos, no vimeo videos, nothing more than a one line blurb)-then gets bitten by the bug and climbs through into their 80's.-then and only then will I accept sport climbing as a valid training venue.
(see Fred Beckey and second ascent of Waddington as a teenager.)
otherwise flash in pan. Rodden and Brown are really not cutting edge anymore-sorta like Nadia Comăneci. Sharma still has not gone alpine climbing.
-starting my 32 year, still doing FA's that no one will hear about for at least a decade ha ha ha.
My basic deep and considered reflection, after reflecting on my 30+ years climbing, across the spectrum from peak bagging to bouldering, trad 'n sport, wooden blocks to glued in rebars, goldline to 9.8 singles, burned crotch from dulfersitz to popped ring finger tendon from cranking, pemmican to goo, is that it's pretty damn amazing.
The fact that a little girl did something amazing and people are grasping at negativities speaks volumes about the inner monologue that must play inside your head.
opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has them and they all stink.
Ashima is a bad mother f*#ker. You don't have to like sport climbing, you don't have to like the mentality that high-end athletics brings, hell you don't even have to like the f*#king Red.
Whether it is rock climbing or tennis, this little girl did something amazing. Just appreciate it. Doesn't cost you anything to be decent.
Rodden and Brown are really not cutting edge anymore
Brown has freed several valley big walls (WFLT, NWFHD, gave an attempt on Zodiac with Honnold) and Rodden has had to deal with a career ending injury - AFTER a divorce. She's also freed more el cap routes than any other woman, and almost any man, all in her 20's.
Yeah... they just never really performed to their potential : /
The fact that a little girl did something amazing and people are grasping at negativities speaks volumes about the inner monologue that must play inside your head.
opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has them and they all stink.
Ashima is a bad mother f*#ker. You don't have to like sport climbing, you don't have to like the mentality that high-end athletics brings, hell you don't even have to like the f*#king Red.
Whether it is rock climbing or tennis, this little girl did something amazing. Just appreciate it. Doesn't cost you anything to be decent.
Hmm I'm not sure this requires much deep thought really.
She is impressively good. Very Cool
From a pure technical point of view it is not surprising to see young gals excelling. It is a gymnastic sport. People have seen this coming for decades.
What does it mean to my climbing? Not much other than it's cool to hear about.
I sure don't see why it's bothering anyone. Hmmm I guess I can imagine why it might for some people. Your identity would have to be waaaay too caught up in competitive numbers if it does.
GDavis agreed. grasping at negatives... or just grasping.
"Yeah but ...can she...?"
Seriously???
Wow.
Supertopo amazes me....again.
She's an amazing little girl. To whatever degree there's any similarity between her "sport" and my "sport" I can at least identify with the drive that motivates her to push her own limits. It's fantastic. I wish her the best.
Every single one of the young climbers who looked to me to do all the onsight leading surpassed me in every aspect of climbing and IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD!
The next generation should surpass us that is the way of the world. She will mentor someone in the future who will surpass her!!
Good for her!
I'm climbing better than I ever have and still am probably the worst climber at the crag. Just started sport climbing because it's what overhanging limestone has and I love it! Not turning my back on my roots in trad but I have new friends who sport climb. Watched a guy make a stick clip out of bamboo and clip a bolt 9 feet off the deck---I kept my mouth shut---he was leading I was belaying it's his ass, motherf#%@r red pointed sustained 5.12b. I led it ground up or shut up to the third bolt and was scared of decking at the 2nd clip and couldn't pull the 3rd 5.12 move (1 finger pocket). I was happy for my buddy who fired it and happy for me also now I have a new goal= get stronger, use better footwork. I can't be 12 again but I can be 40 going on 12.
Whether it is rock climbing or tennis, this little girl did something amazing. Just appreciate it.
Yes sir.
on the other hand, where do you draw the line?
seriously, you could get a two-year-old child, get him into a serious muscle conditioning program, 20 warm bottles of Muscle Milk per day, hourly applications of oily Pec Nectar to his entire body, really get him buffed up for a world-shattering strength to weight ratio, then set him loose on Action Directe, free solo, tiny chalk bag. Nothing more stubborn and determined than a two-year-old child, right?
that would be some friggin AWESOME shitt...onsight flash!
ratings are a necessary part of the sport in the sense that they provide the knowledge that, in former times, would come from a knowledgeable local, a guide, who would lead climbers on the climb.
we use the word "guide" to mean the written description of the routes, and a part of that description is the answer to the question: how hard is it?
it isn't so surprising that the degree of difficulty be turned around to indicate the accomplishment of the climber, and it is a short hand way of determining a hierarchy of sorts in a group of climbers. In the sense that climbing is a sport, the ratings may mean something.
In the other sense of climbing the ratings mean very little, climbing is not a sport, but often a means to adventure where what is at risk is the life of its participants. That sense of climbing does not fit into our perception of it as sport, though the risk is a big part of climbing, and the consequences of a fall the frontier between sport and adventure. It is a frontier that we all ask ourselves about crossing, every time we go out, what are we willing to ante up?
So I'd say as a sport, it is very interesting to watch the progression of difficulty among the youth. Whether or not someone stays in climbing seems a strange metric, an elite athlete has only so many years at the peak of their sport. Once that peak has been reached the motivation to continue can be elusive to find, especially to maintain a level near that peak. It's not impossible, but it is rare.
From my observation that period for climbing seems to be around 10 years, and happens in the late teens to late twenties. At that time, it seems, the climbing life starts to dim and other interests start to become more important. It struck me looking at the audience at the Face Lift this year, how many old climbers were there and how many young... and not only that, but the unawareness of each of those audiences of the other. But of the old, there were few compared to the numbers of their youth.
In terms of risk, it is a part of any adventure, and certainly one wouldn't expect an athlete to undertake some of the adventures even a weekender alpinist might decide to take, no level of accomplishment protects the participants who venture into the realm where many random occurrences could threaten life.
It is also natural to take what we learn from the sport of climbing into the domain of the climbing adventure, those athletes who get interested in the sport and go on to a lifelong participation in climbing would naturally push up the level of all of climbing, and in so doing up the adventure ante. But we don't even know why we do it ourselves, how could we decide what a teenager might do with their amazing skills.
So we can all appreciate athletic accomplishment, and even try to learn something from those accomplishment from the people who perform them. Bottom line is we all like the movement over stone, we like doing it in the flow, in the moment when we do not have to be conscious of it, where there seems to be little effort, and we are transported into a place few people venture.
Whether that is high on a granite cliff or overcoming a 15 foot boulder, we recognize that state and we seek it out.
We like it, we have fun with it, and at some point, we can leave the guide at home and go out and enjoy climbing without the artificialities.
Why is it that folks feel threatened if somebody, even if it's a young girl, can pull harder than they can?
I think the grading system is OK. Think about it--surely Ashima can tell the difference between grades. Put her on a .12a, a .12c, a .13b, she can probably tell you which one is harder than the next.
Certainly, she might have a hard time on overhanging fist cracks, but if she desired to send those, she probably could train to do so.
Relax, it's just us folks out having a time of it all. I applaud the focus and strength that it requires to send at such a high level.
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.
Adam Ondra has climbed multi-pitch 5.14s in the Ratikon that were hand-bolted on lead with huge runouts, so I doubt he'd have a huge problem with some of the stuff you are describing. It's like some people here think these climbers are just campusing every move and that footwork and technique means absolutely nothing.
Not to mention that the climbers currently operating at the highest level in trad - Dave MacLeod, James McHaffie, Alex Honnold, etc. - all pull 5.14+ on bolts. The translation of sport climbing power and technique to physically easier but mentally tougher trad or trad-ish routes is not as alien as many would like to believe.
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.
Again, I'd love to see some of these kids get on a Henny, Rollins, Carson, Clevenger, Higgins etal clean face runout test piece where strength (Pulling?) and gymnastic abilities mean absolutely nothing.
IMO it is much easier to gain the mental game to climb runnout faces a couple of number grades below your max than it is to get your max up into the 14's. I have no doubt that you could teach a young 5.14 sport climber to climb Bacher-Yerian faster than you could teach the average 5.11 trad climber to climb 5.14
Reality is, however, that most young 5.14 sport climbers have no interest whatsoever in runnout trad climbs two numbers below their max.
I think the grading system is OK. Think about it--surely Ashima can tell the difference between grades. Put her on a .12a, a .12c, a .13b, she can probably tell you which one is harder than the next.
I've thought about it and disagree, at least in some cases (although in most cases, you're probably right).
I imagine that Ashima could get shut down on certain boulder problems that are V2 or V3, if they are entirely dependent on reach and have no intermediate holds (obviously she's not going to need much of an intermediate hold, but she's going to need something). When you hear about the super hard problems that short, light children (or very small adults) do, you don't necessarily hear about the "relatively easy" (for an average size man) things that they can't do.
When you reduce the difficulty of a climb/boulder problem to a single number, that number's not going to be the same for climbers of vastly different dimensions. This is most obvious for things like pure cracks and very reach dependent moves.
That's not to say that she isn't a "better" or "stronger" climber than 99.whatever % of climbers--I'm sure she is.
Man I hope she doesn't read some of the sh#t people are writing here.
Seems with the wealth of knowledge and experience here she should be getting some great advice on how to become a well rounded climber enjoying all aspects of the sport, and in all venues if desired.
I hope this little gal gets a good mentor to teach here the ropes of trad because if you can climb 14c and you cant get up classics like Astroman or the Rostrum that to me would be sad.
I would also inject anyone who has been around and was already a climber when the climbing gym came to be knew this day would come, and perhaps not as soon but once I started seeing the kids in the gym I knew that all the hard routes fully grown men had done that were on the hardest scale would fall to these kids in their teen years versus their late twenties or thirties... That would a grade of 13a being the top of the grade then.
It will not be long before some young girl or boy sends a route a guy like Sharma has worked his whole life to do. I personally hope it happens for the simple reason its called Progression. Amen because stagnation is well not interesting to us its seems in the climbing world.
I hope this little gal gets a good mentor to teach here the ropes of trad because if you can climb 14c and you cant get up classics like Astroman or the Rostrum that to me would be sad.
Yeah I'd be sad too if I were 11 years old and couldn't get up Astro-man or Hall of Mirrors. Especially when 10 year old just did the rostrum as his first multi-pitch First crack climb.. No falls
Im not saying she has to do it now at any age in particular but i am saying if your as young as she is and you climb that hard on sport routes it would be sad if in your life you were not able to climb such classics because you were not mentored in a particular style of climbing.
Well I will agree that I get more of a kick out of seeing that Kid who did the Rostrum at age 10 than I get out of hearing another 5.14. Or the girl who climbed RNWF with her dad. (interesting same mentor involved)
Probably because 5.14 is something I can't relate to really. That's my own failure of vision not theirs for sure.
It's all good and I hope as these kids go on they get to enjoy all that climbing can be with such incredible talent and early dedication.
What gets lost in all this a bit is just how hard thses routes really are. Like always the best climbers make the impossible look easy. To me grades get exponetially harder. It's not linear. I mean there's such a huge difference between say 13a and 13c. Even more so between a 14a and a 14d for crying out loud.
Kids that crush threads always draw the "she can't climb cracks" or "let's see her on some 70s runout slab" comments. What BS. Crack climbing is just climbing not some mysterious art--put your hand or finger in the crack and pull. 99% of the climbing population does not climb dangerous run out climbs so I've never understood why they are always upheld as some general measurement of ability.
My only concern if it was my kid would be muscle and tendon development.
I recall watching Chris Lindner lead Robbins Crack (10a) for his first time. He was 4 y.o. (87-88?). And soloed it shortly therafter. And a month or two after that, he sends Starving In Stereo (12a/crack). Lead his first 13a sport at the age of 9! And his first 14c at 16. So, he continued on to climb harder and harder stuff. And is still stoked about climbing.
"Climbing, in my opinion, is the coolest sport in the world, and I enjoy helping people realize that." Chris Lindner (2010)
So, it seems as though CL was & is having a lot of fun climbing. That is what it is all about, having fun. Hopefully, so is Ashira. And, imo, that is all we should be concerned about (in regards to her) that she is having a lot of fun, ... eh? So, what's with all the drama?
First of - amazing stuff. These japanese (little) women seem to be leading the world, and I am thrilled at the prospect of seeing the sport develop with their efforts.
I dont understand this comment:
Fabulous accomplishments, but the ratings were developed for adult males with adult male strength-to-weight ratios, not ratios which likely run quite significantly higher than that.
Ummm. There's nothing wrong with the ratings. Turns out, being small and thin is the most ideal body shape for climbing very very hard routes and boulders.
Ratings are body shape (hand size) dependent for crack climbs of course, but thats not relevant to Ashimas climbing (yet).
I understand that old school tradsters cant understand what 5.14+ means. I certainly cant. But its fair to say that most of these cutting edge sport climbers could probably make el cap look like a walk in the park, if sufficiently motivated.
No, it makes you an out of shape, no technique slob. (unless it's OW, then suffering may occur.)
I don't get why so many sh*theads on this forum bag on people who climb 5.15 / vHARD. "No skill" "no suffering" "plug gear" for f*cks sake. Everyone has different interests.
Fabulous accomplishments, but the ratings were developed for adult males with adult male strength-to-weight ratios, not ratios which likely run quite significantly higher than that.
Response:
This is a typical response...blah blah blah she has an advantage blah blah blah...
I could point out that her technique is FLAWLESS compared to 99% of adults, including YOU(Drew has spent a fair bit of time climbing with her and is no slouch in that department. I could also point out that she's about 4'-8" tall. I might also point out that she's been training HARD for more than half a decade with high level coaches...
I think that "we" the older generation are being faced with a revolution in the sport and that is that.
Although very impressive, achievements in a gym or on bolted sport routs are just circus tricks. Alpine/trad climbing is something very, very different. Just because Ashima is using rock for her gymnastics, doesn't mean she is a climber, yet. IMHO.
"Yea, I wanna see her climb supercrack & see how that goes.
Many don't even bother with 5.10 & 5.11 anymore it seems. 5.12 is the new 5.8 for kids these days. Virtually none of these little phenoms seem to give two turds about pluggin gear, baggin peaks, or suffering either, WTF?!
Difficulty &/or grades is the endgame for the next generation it would appear.
Amazing stuff they are doing, I'd love to see these little kids crushing in person.
edit: good point below Jim, the kids are unstoppable"
Uhhh you might not be that informed as to what these kids can do with cracks and they can plug gear as well as or better than 90% of adults.
Alpine/trad climbing is something very, very different.
What does that have to do with anything? Seriously. Who is saying otherwise?
You bro's need to get your Test levels checked. Little girl has you all clawing at myths like an old Sensei teaching his dragon nonsense bullshit to wide eyed kids...
The fact that a little girl did something amazing and people are grasping at negativities speaks volumes about the inner monologue that must play inside your head.
opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has them and they all stink.
Ashima is a bad mother f*#ker. You don't have to like sport climbing, you don't have to like the mentality that high-end athletics brings, hell you don't even have to like the f*#king Red.
Whether it is rock climbing or tennis, this little girl did something amazing. Just appreciate it. Doesn't cost you anything to be decent.
Ummm. There's nothing wrong with the ratings. Turns out, being small and thin is the most ideal body shape for climbing very very hard routes and boulders.
Ratings are body shape (hand size) dependent for crack climbs of course, but thats not relevant to Ashimas climbing (yet).
I'll try one more time.
I am sure there are boulder problems and routes where a say, 6' guy has to do a good lunge to get from hold to hold, and it's about V2 or V3 for that guy. If the little girl can't do that route, can the 6' guy say it's V12 or whatever, since it shut down a V-double-digit climber?
(To make this concrete, consider the route "Take That, Katie Brown," although that's apparently a very hard route by any standard. No crack involved.)
It's not just cracks that are size dependent. And I agree (and it's obvious) that "being small and thin is the most ideal body shape for climbing very very hard routes," but only most of the time.
So when does she dress up for a beauty pageant? I don't know, on one hand fair play to her, but on the other hand, why can't we let kids be kids instead of pushing them. I am not saying this young lady was being pushed, but it happens a lot by parents.
Yeah, I don't get it...the TR's here get nothing but positive comments for another average ascent of Dana or some routine aid ascent of another grade V trade route (don't get me wrong, I think those things are awesome too)...but climbing that actually takes more than average talent and dedication gets bashed. Strong work.
No, it makes you an out of shape, no technique slob. (unless it's OW, then suffering may occur.)
I don't get why so many sh*theads on this forum bag on people who climb 5.15 / vHARD. "No skill" "no suffering" "plug gear" for f*cks sake. Everyone has different interests.
Bouldering."
^^^^ AWESOME
Folks...you should maybe attend a youth comp one of these days and get a look at what's happening...its sick in an awesome way...
"Although very impressive, achievements in a gym or on bolted sport routs are just circus tricks. Alpine/trad climbing is something very, very different. Just because Ashima is using rock for her gymnastics, doesn't mean she is a climber, yet. IMHO. "
and i suppose a high level FIS J1 or J2 slalom, GS, or downhiller is really not that great of a skier cuz he ain't shreddin' the backcountry, eh? More just circus tricks
I hope this little gal gets a good mentor to teach here the ropes of trad because if you can climb 14c and you cant get up classics like Astroman or the Rostrum that to me would be sad.
+ 1
but, as someone already posted. there are signs of burnout.
she may never have the chance to climb the said classics
She's probably still not comfortable with getting up high.
She's 11. Bolts are plenty safe for her.
SIGNS OF BURNOUT??
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? What is wrong with you people?
She sends two 14c's in 7 days, and you guys say there are "signs of burning out" ? ? ? ? WHAT THE Hell.
I am sure there are boulder problems and routes where a say, 6' guy has to do a good lunge to get from hold to hold, and it's about V2 or V3 for that guy. If the little girl can't do that route, can the 6' guy say it's V12 or whatever, since it shut down a V-double-digit climber?
Agreed. Thats a microcosm, important for the difficulty a boulder problem, and sometimes for particular routes with acute cruxes. The beauty of rock of course is that it allows many differently shaped people to climb, sometimes using totally different sequences with different holds.
But in general, being small and thin doesnt alter the difficulty of a route. On average. Climbing has a great inbuilt counterbalance effect that generally keeps things even - e.g. small reach corresponds with small hands to make small intermediate dimples into usable holds. It doesnt create an unfair advantage, unless you think that being the most ideal shape to climb is somehow unfair and the ratings shouldnt apply to these people in the same way.
Im sorry to have got involved in a grade debate.. the bottom line is take grades with a pinch of salt - but not a spoonful!!
Also, Adam Ondra just flashed Southern Smoke Direct. That's the hardest flash EVER. And he rated it easier than it's graded. (graded 9a+/15a, he thinks 9a/14d)
But it wasn't struggling up a 5.10 so it's not cool. Or takes and skill. And it's not climbing.
I think it's great she's out climbin' hard boulders and sport climbs.
I hope her folks stay on top of any injuries she may get or develop. I really hope to see her talent in climbing - in whatever form that takes her to - for the long run.
As Dr. Ed pointed out - I think it was him - but I've also heard Chic Scott say it that most of us have a window in our late teens/early 20's for our Great Big Hard Routes.
But there are plenty of examples of folks climbing hard into their fifies ( in many cases having taken time out to raise family......... ) and sixties. Donini still gets at it. Mark Hudon. Croft. Plenty of others.
All depends on what ya want. When I was 11 I wanted to be world gymnastics champion. I had to settle for Western Canadian champion :-) . Then I got into climbing.........and then I had kids and then blahblahblah.
I actually hope Ashima does read these comments and learns to have a thick skin. All women need that most because there are always guys out there ready to knock us down for our achievements. Or worse........other women to do it too.
Jeepers guys...
Wtf is it with offering opinions these day and having some A-hole go off on ya..
Bunch of Nazis..
The OP asked for opinions...
Nobody is saying anything bad against this girl..
Nobody is hating - just the opposite.
She can do what ever she wants..
Personally I havn't watched Reel Rock for 3 years now cause I just don't care.
I just hope she is being allowed to do it for herself.
And not being lead by programmed lunatics like ya have in any sport.
Football coaches making little kids smash their delicate brains together over and over.
Or gymnastic coaches destroying the connective tissue of girls before they even reach puberty.
Climbing to me is about views, and exploring, and birds, and thinking....
As well as all the rest of it....the gymnastics, etc..
Why can't some of ya all not understand that some of us don't give a sh#t about a number?
The whole idea of pushing a sport or all this stuff as it relates to climbing now...
Perhaps it is the Buddhist in me - the imperminance of it all.
Or perhaps it is the nurse in me - talking with 100 year old people on their death bed on many days ..
My best days are with no guide books and just picking a line..
It is a subtle thing - because obviously we all use numbers if we climb and love doing certain incredible routes.
So you can't not be a hypocrite and talk about this..
But there is a line that gets crossed - where the constant obsession with numbers is incredibly boring.
Where does it end?
It makes me yawn...
You are missing a lot if you are being taught to focus on numbers...in my opinion...and that is where is seems it is all going ...more and more...
Just an opinion...
I think it goes to freedom maybe...
I have always enjoyed running wild, being creative, or even an anarchist...
Running free..
Bolts tell you where to go...
They tell you what to do...
Lol - I have never liked being told what to do..
Numbers turn it into an open ended goal oriented game
And than the whole thing gets carried away and f*#ked up- just like humans do with everything they touch..
You like Football, but not being tackled, or scoring, or playing with anyone... Just running around the field with a ball. That's cool. You came off harsh and biased and a total prick.
Did you picture a little kid running around the backyard with a nerf football while his parents are bull sh*tting around the bbq?
Or what you think Reily looks like running around a big open field with scattered trees and a football, just running anywhere, birds singing, happy as hell?
Chris Sharma onsighting "Excellent Adventure" (5.13, age 16) on The Rostrum, after a two-day crash course in placing gear (The Rostrum was his third ever gear lead).
Credit: all in jim
Tommy Caldwell sport climbing 5.14, age 14.
Credit: all in jim
Caldwell freeclimbing 5.14 on El Cap.
Credit: all in jim
Katie Brown enjoying a 5.12 sport climb, age 13.
Credit: all in jim
Katie Brown onsighting (she led all the hard pitches) RNWF of Half Dome (5.12).
Ya but those guys are tossers. They got strong before learning how to do trad. That's unfair! God forbid someone learns a little technique and get's strong before learning how to place gear.
. PT You like Football, but not being tackled, or scoring, or playing with anyone... Just running around the field with a ball. That's cool. You came off harsh and biased and a total prick.
Lol - you take it to far..
I liked football when I played everyday with my friends at lunch hour - snow, rain, sleet, spring run off, sunshine - we didn't miss a day in Grade 9
I was never interested in being yelled at and yammered at by a coach - even if I was the fastest on the feild - and I was!
To take your analogy further ...
I am much more interested in running through the mountains, valleys, and forests forever..like a mad man - than ever seeing a bolt again....
Perhaps I am crazy...
I don't see why you need to call names.
I never called you any names...
I'm sorry if I gave off the impression I am really *that* upset about it, I am not... just the way I like to communicate on forums. like a PMS'ing chick.
Why don't you people let ASHIMA do her thing and care about yourself? If to her climbing is about acrobatics, strength, training, and difficulty, than let her do what she enjoys. All you Croft and Bachar-worshiping groupies think those guys didn't train HARD for their feats? Or you don't think U. Steck trains? Those guys were not perfect, and trained hard for what they did. What they did of course is different from what she does, but who knows what she will do when she is their age??? That will remain a mystery for now. Let the young crush, maybe one day they will end up doing impressive stuff in the mountains as well.
TheChief! Come on man! "Put her on this run out blah blah blah..." omfg, it's a kid!... for some reason I am not surprised...
I've also heard Chic Scott say it that most of us have a window in our late teens/early 20's for our Great Big Hard Routes.
He is ABSOLUTELY correct. However, we don't know who is able, and who is unable, to do great difficult things into their later years. The only way to find out is to commit to climbing wholly, mind body and spirit, and give it 100% of your focus and attention. If you fall short, you did so with discipline.
Climbing is a complex endevour.. while pure athletic ability is a component it is not the most important perhaps.
There is much left to accomplish in climbing.
Opportunities for those who dare at any age.
Meru Sharks Fin? Not the realm of pre-teens for sure.
How many really care to challenge the state of the art? Some for sure and that is a rewarding possibility for some. A place where pure athletic ability is a huge advantage
Great thing about climbing is that the same amount of individual challenge and reward is available to each participant at every level.
Unless one cares too much what others think of them.
I have honestly been as excited for a newbie doing Grack as I was watching Hans and Alex break the nose speed record.
I think the idea that "talent" has much, if anything, to do with steep enduro pulling (e.g. The Red, where everyone goes to tick their big numbers), is misguided.
I also think that climbs are generally rated for the average sized person. It's the reason that number ratings on crack climbs can be ridiculous if you have exceptionally large or small hands. 5.13 fingerstacks...for a guy with 5" fists and sausage fingers who is getting bomb fingerlocks instead of stacks...c'mon it's at least a number easier for him. Same deal for the small hands woman who is getting baggy/off fists in "5.10" blue camalots cracks...she can hike "5.12" rings (getting hands, at 5.10) but shutdown on "5.10" cups...because it's not 5.10 for her, it's 5.11ow.
So the concept than a tiny young child, who is getting two-pad deep jugs, where the rating is for an avg person who would be getting half-pad deep crimps, is climbing as "hard" just doesn't ring true.
It's great to see young kids who give it everything, try hard, get tenacious, etc. And many of them go on to climb bigger numbers even after they've grown to adult body size. Many don't. Clearly this young lady is at the top of heap among her peers.
But to pretend they are having the same experience on a route as someone of the avg body size, and comparing their accomplishments under that assumption, is silly...just like pretending that a route with spaced out holds that an adult can easily reach between is just as easy for the kid when they have to dyno between them.
yeah...and Hussein Bolt really isn't that fast compared to the rest of us...he just has a body built for that, i'd like to see his time w/ my beer gut...he prolly doesn't train that much either...
"Love to see her get on and flash Raliegh Collins's A-Hills .12a blank clean face testpiece or Henny's new totally blank clean face .13+ project next to my line in Pine Creek"
The oblivious self-caricature in this statement is priceless. no wonder people dismiss this forum as a bunch of irrelevant , has-been blowhards.
I hope the kid enjoys herself and does things for her own reasons, out of love and joy. just like all of us.
. Why don't you people let ASHIMA do her thing and care about yourself?
Well, I don't think anybody lives in a vacume.
She as well as all us are influenced by our surroundings, her coach, her everything..
I'm not sure why I have dedicated my life to climbing and love it so much.
Yet all this focus on numbers makes me so bored...LOL
Guess it seems cliche to me....I dunno...
My oldest daughter seems to have the same affliction...she hates being told what do and hates organization....I have tried...LOL
Btw, I should correct myself. It is good to discuss, and brainstorm about here (is it ok to load kids with HARD TRAINING at such young age etc), but I do not think it was ok to tell her to do things, such as "Love to see her get on and flash Raliegh Collins's A-Hills .12a blank clean face testpiece or Henny's new totally blank clean face .13+ project next to my line in Pine Creek"
NO DUDE, YOU GET ON IT! Especially knowing that your line is no harder than 5.10.
If anyone in this thread can comment on high-end sport climbing, El Cap can pull some rank...
I think its impossible to quantify how much easier it must be for her because of the style of climbing. There is an advantage on small holds, but there are disadvantages in sections where you move past 5.11 jugs that are spaced.
I have no f*#king clue, maybe the route is 5.12 for her. Maybe its 5.15b. No point in arguing either way because doesn't really matter....
The standard of measurement is all wonky because of this, and it confuses many - like trying to divide by zero.
Want to really know? Empirically? Ask her when she is older what she thinks of those routes. I'll bet she will still be able to do them...
F*#K IT LET'S PUT HER ON PERILOUS JOURNEY HAHAHAHAHA LITTLE GIRL WHAT NOW???
Jeez, fellas. God forbid some 11 year old starts crushing sport climbs. Sounds like some crusty old skool trad jimmies got stuck in a fistjam and needed to be rustled out.
that little girl can crush harder than probably all the negative wankers on this thread and most importanatly has a smile on her face. go have another beer or whiskey that should make you insecure wankers feel better about yourself.
That was my entire point. Nothing to do with the particular young lady in question. And no, I can't pull rank on anyone. You don't have to climb any particular rating to know that bigger holds on the same terrain = less difficult, and tiny hands means bigger holds. Why this blindly obvious concept riles people up is beyond me.
People point to Sharma, Caldwell, etc as young guns who didn't burn out and continued to climb harder as they grew into adult sized frames. But if you really tease that out a bit, they didn't progress as much as we might have expected...and I put a lot of that down to growing into an adult body. Think about it, both those guys ticked Necessary Evil, which at 14c was supposed to be the hardest route in the US at the time, when they were 15/16 (IIRC, they were actually road tripping together that summer). And about 5 years later they'd done what? 14d. Sharma did the first 15a at 20. One to two letter grades, while being essentially full time professional climbers?
The fact that a little girl did something amazing and people are grasping at negativities speaks volumes about the inner monologue that must play inside your head.
opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has them and they all stink.
Ashima is a bad mother f*#ker. You don't have to like sport climbing, you don't have to like the mentality that high-end athletics brings, hell you don't even have to like the f*#king Red.
Whether it is rock climbing or tennis, this little girl did something amazing. Just appreciate it. Doesn't cost you anything to be decent.
this is my take too. I appreciate trad and alpine and all the mental aspects of both; it doesn't diminish how other worldly this accomplishment is.
My biggest problem with Ashima's latest outing at the Red is those were the same routes I wanted to be ticking when I was there. If she had just sucked it up and tried some harder routes I wouldn't have had to stand around wasting my precious time waiting for my turn to work those climbs:-)
Sport climbing is by far the hardest genre of climbing to get "good" at. This is proven by the sport climbers who go on to dominate in alpine climbing (Steck, Destiville, JC Lafaille, etc etc) vs. the alpinists who get any good at sport climbing (none). Edlinger did Sphinx crack either onsight or very quickly, same with Yuji Hirayama... The sportsters have always dominated any genre they get into, not so of the others genres getting into sport climbing. Too much commitment required for sport climbing, while staggering uphill requires very little in comparison.
I've done a lot of sport climbing, alpine climbing and ice climbing. Holding up alpine climbing as being somehow the pinnacle of climbing is like holding up Everest as being the most difficult climb because it's the highest. Please.
As for Ashira, if she burns out tomorrow and is done with climbing she will have done something beautiful and cool. Unlike all the people saying the routes are easy for her because of her size; I recall some losers saying the same thing about Lynn HIll's fingers and her ascent of the nose (Oh, and Lynn wasn't a half bad sport climber in her day either)... Get your egos in check and stand in awe of something really amazing. There are probably problems for Ashira in life, but I bet she sorts 'em out better than the average kid.
Funny how some psuedo-hardmen's identities can't handle the thought of a 12 yo girl climbing harder than them.
…but she isn't a real "climber" cause blah blah blah.
Good luck dealing with your midlife crisis.
Saying she's only crushing because her hands are small is stupid as sh*t and you should stick to gym climbing
Elcapinyoazz:
How sweet. Angry little man is angry. And doesn't have well developed reading comprehension.
Hmmm...
Elcapinyoazz:
So the concept than a tiny young child, who is getting two-pad deep jugs, where the rating is for an avg person who would be getting half-pad deep crimps, is climbing as "hard" just doesn't ring true.
Okay, my bad reading comprehension is still bad. Enlighten me. What did I miss?
It is OK to have the discussion about how a persons body may affect their climbing and how certain climbing areas lend themselves to certain body types... I talk about this all the time. It's a natural thought to have.
What ISN'T natural is trying to reason why it is that she must be great, and why that reason really isn't all that impressive. That thought comes from an entirely different place.
that little girl can crush harder than probably all the negative wankers on this thread and most importanatly has a smile on her face. go have another beer or whiskey that should make you insecure wankers feel better about yourself.
She is completely rad, congrats… I think like women’s gymnastics, there may come a time in sport climbing when you are over the hill by the time you hit 21. Then you can legally hit the beer and whiskey and rest on your laurels while you talk trash about the next crew that is ripping it up. But I doubt a 11 y/o can truely appreciate a good single malt!
Too much commitment required for sport climbing, while staggering uphill requires very little in comparison
In alpine climbing, sometimes it takes a ton of commitment just to find a safe place to sleep. It is all climbing and all good, but until an 11 y/o fires off the Rupal face don’t put down the commitment required for high end alpine climbing.
Being one-time gymnasts, Pat Ament and I used to joke about rock climbing turning into girls gymnastics (why use the word "womens" when they are barely 16, if that). When I started climbing in 1953, I did so because it was largely a "mans" sport and I could use it to develop a manly physique. Leather knickers, stocking caps and sweating,bulging muscles, that sort of thing. Isn't that hilarious in this day and age!
If I valued my climbing so much I should have stayed at 145 pounds, and 6'2", not gain the 40 pounds of muscle I did doing gymnastics and bodyweight exercises. But, know what? I can still do some of that stuff and I get a more enjoyable workout than toiling on some boulder problem put up by a skinny, little kid.
Recently, I've speculated that women (girls) could successfully compete with men on the horizontal bar - they do the same moves on the uneven bars.
Men, return to weight lifting, where you will always succeed! Or bodybuilding, where your manly form will be appreciated. Leave climbing to thin little waifs, and let them reconfigure the ratings systems. Be a man! Wear lederhosen, mountain boots, and smoke you masculine pipe.
It looks like we all have different definitions for "climbing"
If climbing were like running and she were a great 100m runner but couldn't run a marathon, nobody would argue she still is great runner, right?
If climbing were like a decathlon, her 100m feat wouldn't make her a great decathlonist. For me climbing is closer to the decathlon, that's all.
I don't judge, what she does is very impressive, and it is up to her (I hope) what she does next, but IMO she is not a better climber than, lets say GDavis.
I spent a LOT of time, a TON of training, working on HER discipline. She f*#ks me up on rock.
I have some old-guy tricks that might stave off the younger generation... for a little while... but they be comin', baby.
GilWad (Will Gadd, one of the greatest ice climbers to ever live) echos sentiments I think, too - all that gear-placing, thoughtful protection, belay building sh#t comes fast. I became about as 'smart' as a trad climber while being 50lbs overweight and never training. Once I took bouldering seriously as an art I started to onsight 5.10 instead of fall on 5.7's.... it all helps, but the physicality of HARD climbing is harder for some than all that other stuff.
Having long been out of the climbing ring, my hopes are that this little girl looks at a completely blank wall with no routes on it and decides to put an incredible climb on it!!!
If this is what she can do at this age, with a little maturity she will surpass most if not all going forward.
Props to the young ones as they continue to stomp what many think impossible.
P.S. Age should not be your gauge on anyone's stature. The mind will get you anywhere
In watching the video of the contest, it is certainly amazing what those tho little girls have accomplished, but my impression of the routes is that there is a sameness to all of them; very steep, lunges, sloping holds.
It would be more interesting to see longer roped climbs; even if bolted, so that they could show their skill on off widths, flared chimneys, stemming, etc.
Not to mention a trad climbing contest, where they have to carry a rack.
Maybe someday someone will gut out a huge 1,200 foot high rise and make a large scale climbing gym.
I understand this was a bouldering contest, so there are more limitations.
these kids can and do crush cracks, all kinds. my boy, at age 12 could crush 5.11 offwidths, 5.12 fingers, all types of hands, etc.
Face it guys, these kids are highly trained, only worry about school, have no kids themselves to worry about, coaches that no how to climb and "soccer" parents willing to get them everything they need. You can't compete with this...don't feel bad, you can't compete in girls gymnastics, but you still appreciate it, right?
So what if she climbs for another five years and then finds it boring, unrewarding and a self centered headtrip, or whatever. Or quits tomorrow cuz she decided she wanted to commit her life to serving other people, instead of pleasing a bunch of over the hill wannbee flakes. Or she has already quit and its nobodies business why and what she is gonna do with the rest of her life!
What a lame thread. Ain't you people got anything better to do?????!!
Oh yeah, this is SuperDopo!!!
edit: I mean really, is success or failure in climbing a f*#kin rock the be all and endall in life on this planet? How you judge your fellow human beings? Put them on pedestal's and then knock them down when they nolonger meet YOUR standards/criteria, or whatever?
She is 11 y.o., for goodness sakes, give her a f'n break. No wonder kid's "burnout" and whatever they were enjoying is no longer "fun" because they're being scrutinized night and day over every iota of their frickin lives!! Sheeeeesh!!!!
And people wonder why young girls become so weight conscious and bulemic or whatever and end up like Karen Carpenter, thin as a rail and ... F'n, DEAD!!!
edit/edit: BUT, personally, I hope she goes on to crush the hell out of every F'n Stone on the planet (if that's HER desire) ... (and is having the MOST fun = the winner, ala Alex Lowe "Whoever is having the most fun wins!")!
in the latest Real Rock Film Tour there was a video of Sharma and Ondra working a Sharma project in Spain... I thought for sure I wouldn't like it at all, not that I have anything against endless scenes of repeated grunting-while-hucking-for-holds-on-overhanging-faces activities that I couldn't ever touch...
the main point of the video, besides showing the protagonists in a golden light (Chris was the "old man" in this one!) was that they didn't succeed, it was a whole video in which they failed.
that is so much more genuine that I actually fell for it...
We all try to do things that are too hard for us to do, at least in climbing. It is a great activity that way, it is unique. There is no way I can participate in the World Series or the Super Bowl or the World Cup, but I can attempt Midnight Lightning and even get cheered on by our "sport's" superstars (as had been reported in a TR elsewhere on this site by someone).
Yosemite is open, it is the Super Bowl and we can go there and play the game at any level... or challenge ourselves to. And at every level there is accomplishment and satisfaction and achievement.
While we complain as a group about the popularity of climbing (at least us old crustys) we somehow loss sight of the fact that we have an intensely personal affinity to going out and climbing. Who cares who else is doing it... I'm doing it
Hudon and Croft and Donini and many others (Freddy, you're up there too!) are inspirational to me, hopefully to others much younger than me, because they get out there and climb at a high level, still, and they still have an ocean of enthusiasm for it... they're obviously having fun, and perhaps getting something more meaningful out of it too.
And the young climbers are also inspirational, and amazing, because they represent climbing and are actually taking it somewhere, and they do it as a part of the historical progression, giving their own twist on it, bringing their innovations and their fresh look.
I remember the first time I saw Yosemite Valley, the March morning I woke up after the late night drive in. I don't see the Valley like that, exactly, anymore, but I know there are those who do, and I'm excited for them.
Ashira is legitimately doing hard routes and deserves the recognition. Who knows or even who cares what she'll do with it, I hope she's having at least as much fun as I am.
yikes, I was the only one who mentioned "alpine" and got slapped down by Gadd for it...
hopefully I wasn't so incoherent to have been interpreted as opining alpine is the epitome of climbing!
rather it is demonstrably different than sport climbing, I believe Alex Lowe was also accomplished in that, but the indifference of objective hazards to one's hardest red-point ability was tragic.
Certainly on the other side of the frontier I was talking about...
The only thing that creeps me out about this is the "already trained under several talented coaches" bit. Like in gymnastics where they make the kids starve themselves to put off the onset of puberty so they can stay competetive?
Or doing hormones or other drugs for the same purpose? Adults should not be channeling their goals into little kids, just let them do what they want, what is fun for them. Think about all those creepy gymnastics coaches you see at the bigtime meets. Do you want your kid mentally dominated by people like that?
Like in gymnastics where they make the kids starve themselves to put off the onset of puberty so they can stay competetive?
Or doing hormones or other drugs for the same purpose? Adults should not be channeling their goals into little kids, just let them do what they want, what is fun for them. Think about all those creepy gymnastics coaches you see at the bigtime meets. Do you want your kid mentally dominated by people like that?
Wow, nick, go big or go home, eh?
Women's gymnastics has a bad rap for the coach-parent-athlete triad gone wrong. Yes there are obvious and ghastly incidents of child abuse in the sport - whether it's parents living vicariously through their daughter or coaches allowing their ego to push the child.
I have witnessed both behaviors in gymnastics but I've also seen it in other competitive kids sports as well. Hockey comes to mind right away ( my son played for 7 years; my daughter for 4 )
I've also witnessed strong, flexible girls who are self-motivated and who work hard (I teach several who fit this description ) and are between the ages of 8 and 11. These girls LOVE their sport, LOVE to train and get really good really fast.
I don't know Ashima but I would most certainly NOT immediately cast her situation into one of pushing parents and coaches.
Indeed I am inclined to think she is one of those really motivated and physically capable girls who LOVES her sport and does REALLY well at it.
She challenges our impressions of what we know as "climbing" in a powerfully positive manner.
Here's wishing Ashima the very best in her endeavours.
Routes just are. Difficulty is an individual issue, stemming from the confluence of the climber's characteristics with those of the route. Our numbers are imperfect assemblages of individually assessed difficulties from each climber's internally relative scale, which of course is tempered to some degree by interactions with the 'consensus'. How can we truly know what the difficulties are for any given individual, short of intensively scrutinizing their morphometrics, psychological state, etc. and considering these factors in terms of each section of each route they attempt? And even then...
Every meeting of route and climber is so complex, but the outcome is pretty binary - climbed or not. Ashima has climbed some amazing routes, and that is amazing!
The only thing that creeps me out about this is the "already trained under several talented coaches" bit. Like in gymnastics where they make the kids starve themselves to put off the onset of puberty so they can stay competetive?
Or doing hormones or other drugs for the same purpose? Adults should not be channeling their goals into little kids, just let them do what they want, what is fun for them. Think about all those creepy gymnastics coaches you see at the bigtime meets. Do you want your kid mentally dominated by people like that?
One can definitely discuss the merits of young children doing rigorous training programs. As a physical therapist, I unfortunately see kids all the time with overuse injuries or traumatic injuries for sports, where I live the big sports for kids seem to be skiing, hockey and soccer. I am so out of it I didn’t even know kids now need personal climbing coaches, but I guess like tennis, gymnastics, skiing, etc., you have to start young if you want to make a splash. I know for running it is very controversial in how much young kids should train. Runner’s peak later in life and over training can lead to injuries that just won’t go away. Most parents want their kids to be active, childhood obesity is a growing problem, but no parent wants their kids to get injured. Participation in sports provides a great opportunity for young people. But, if the demands and expectations exceed the maturation and readiness of the child, the positive aspects of participation can be negated.
The whole issue of parents and other adult involvement is another story altogether.
Climbing has evolved, when I was young no coaches or parent, climbing had a little antisocial tint to the game.
Every meeting of route and climber is so complex, but the outcome is pretty binary - climbed or not. Ashima has climbed some amazing routes, and that is amazing!
Not putting Honnold down one bit, he's one of my favorite climbers to be in awe of, but Ashima boulders harder than him. Lol.
Ashima does have some really good coaching.... But she's genetically gifted.
Do any of you tossers judging her by her "coaching, probably on hormone enhancer" know who her parents are?
They make way more money than you guys.
They're way more acrobatic than you guys.
They're way more positive than you guys.
They support her daughter %100 in what she wants to do.
Holy crap, an 11 year old who WANTS to CLIMB hard?
I think it is great that she is 11 yrs old and is climbing hard stuff. But it is only sport climbing with a bolt like every 5 feet . It is not very risky at all. And comparing it to gymnastics and coaching is not appropriate gymnastics is way more difficult than sport climbing; And unfortunately requires alot of coaching. Now if she is high balling she is moving into a whole different mental/physical environment with real life consequences.
"I think it is great that she is 11 yrs old and is climbing hard stuff. But it is only sport climbing with a bolt like every 5 feet . It is not very risky at all. And comparing it to gymnastics and coaching is not appropriate gymnastics is way more difficult than sport climbing; And unfortunately requires alot of coaching. Now if she is high balling she is moving into a whole different mental/physical environment with real life consequences. "
you are clearly not in touch...14c is kind of hard...sort of almost world class...
PSP, why the f*ck would you want an 11yo to risk her life?
All you guys have ego problems. Seriously. It's an 11 year old, little girl. She's making v12 cruxes and linking them with easier v9+ cruxes. And you're degrading her accomplishments because they aren't risky?
Okay, go do Southern Belle. It's kind of like a sport climb. Go be risky. Tosser.
These "climbers" trying to discredit an 11 year old of her V13 / 5.14c accomplishments have no idea. They probably think they're cool when projecting v4's or v5's in the gym.
To me, climbing is firstly about movement. Of course there are other things, like camaraderie, commitment, love of the outdoors, etc. Some people have a special gift for movement. Michael Jordan could seemingly change direction in mid air. The best climbers, at least in terms of the grading system, are those with the greatest kinesthetic intelligence. With climbing's ever increasing popularity, we're certainly going to tap deeper into the gene pool.
To suggest that someone who is so gifted to be able to do high-end sport climbing couldn't learn to do repetitive movement in cracks or slabs or ice is ridiculous. It's all ego. Everyone's project is someone's warmup. Climbing is a lot more fun when you can let go of that and just enjoy the climbing -- and the camaraderie.
"the first poster says he wonders if she understands the life threatening consequences of the sport" she doesn't she is only 11 yrs old and it is sport climbing where you can take fall after fall with little or no consequences. It is the nature of sport climbing, climbing with very little risk; if you love it great have fun, personnally I find it a bit boring. BTW my first sentence was " I think it is great that she is 11 yrs old and she is sending hard stuff" . and if Ondra is running out sport climbing I say good for him it's about time someone did.
It's pretty obvious who is just reading the first few sentances from the OP and replying.
The threads got enough pages now that people aren't browsing counter arguments, kind of funny. Like, right after refuting a point it will get brought up by someone who felt the need to vomit their thoughts out to the world.
and if Ondra is running out sport climbing I say good for him it's about time someone did.
Just my .02, he isn't doing it to be bold, he's probably doing it because he can't stop.
Actually GD, you may not be quite right about that, Ondra has a history of running it out to be bold, or at least to comply with his notion of ethics.
Take a look at http://www.climbing.com/news/groundbreaking-515-gets-second-ascent/
describing his repeat of a hard sport route (Open Air):
"According to photographer Vojtech Vrzba, Ondra skipped an easily clipped bolt before the crux because, he said, “If I clip it, the friction on the rope takes about 10 kilos of weight down and it won’t be fair.” The result was sporting 50-foot falls from the crux moves."
I'm much more interested in the climber who keeps his own life full with family, career, spirit, contribution to others and still pulls hard trad or mountain in between it all. That climber has my admiration. That's who I want to hear about.
Shreiking stickboy skips clip, claiming that clipping it will make the route not fair.
Now my czechglish isn't exactly dialed, but when someone claims it wouldn't be "fair" to clip that bolt, I assume he means it would make the route easier, which implies it is taking weight off. There are really only two ways that making a clip instead of skipping it will physically make the climbing easier...either by adding drag that helps to counter a swing, or by taking weight off.
If you clip above your waist, you're essentially getting a winch-up by the weight of the rope (after accounting for the reduction in rope weight by the drag through the pro), thereby taking weight off. This is what I assume our 116lb wailing like a harpooned racoon protagonist Ondra is talking about whe he says "fair". Now I could be wrong, as again, I don't have my czechglish dictionary handy, he could mean it wouldn't be fair to have more rope drag by clipping that bolt because it would be harder, but that's not how I read it.
But please, Mikey, elighten us all on the concept of rope drag. I don't think I've ever heard of or experienced that.
What this girl needs is a month with Lynn Hill on the road and exploring what' s possible.
She has been on the road for a pretty long time.
To be honest watching kids climb etc makes me a bit jealous. I wish I started climbing at a younger age so that my technique now was much better. Although climbing for me DOES come down to having fun, I do also consider it a true art. Like dancers, the climbers with good technique are awesome to watch. It feels great when you figure out a move and make something very strenuous into a natural body movement- just by changing position of your body. At times I feel like a terrible dancer, and it sucks. So watching these kids (or other climbers with better technique) is quite motivational. Have no idea why some people have the need to put them down for the type of climbing they enjoy.
I started climbing much younger, in a gym, and I don't think it would be 'better' - just different. Probably you wouldn't have become as rad an alpinist if you devoted more days to bouldering, sport climbing, campus board workouts, sh#t you have to do if you want to climb hard plastic (which, if you're a kid in a gym, seems like a really, really cool idea).
Truth is that I am not an alpinist, and for sure far from rad. Mountaineer- more like it. Pulling hard and having better climbing technique would help me a lot though. But again this thread is about these amazing kids- my hat is off. Hope they enjoy it as much as they say they do!
To be honest watching kids climb etc makes me a bit jealous. I wish I started climbing at a younger age so that my technique now was much better. Although climbing for me DOES come down to having fun, I do also consider it a true art. Like dancers, the climbers with good technique are awesome to watch. It feels great when you figure out a move and make something very strenuous into a natural body movement- just by changing position of your body. At times I feel like a terrible dancer, and it sucks. So watching these kids (or other climbers with better technique) is quite motivational. Have no idea why some people have the need to put them down for the type of climbing they enjoy.
Why the little girl can climb much harder than you (and me) has little if anything to do with technique. Just strength-to-weight ratio, and tiny fingers for what to you are tiny holds (to her, they're jugs). The ability to hang on to small holds requires no special "technique."
I guess her technique is good, just like I imagine that Usain Bolt has at least pretty good sprinting technique. But if you think that's why he's faster than you are . . .
Help me solidify my thoughts. I realize that this will remain a remarkable feat regardless of my/our opinions-- it just crys out for deeper contemplation
Adult climbers have pondered this issue since the beginnings of rock climbing as a recreational sport (1880s):
"Let anyone of ordinary height take a friendly small boy of an active nature for practice on such a place [high stone wall at home . . .] and he will have the pleasure of seeing him easily climb up vertical places that are much more difficult, or probably impossible, for the taller man, even though he may be an expert mountaineer." - George Abraham in The Complete Mountaineer (1907)
Question for all those who think Ashima has an advantage because of her strength to weight ratio, what do you have to say about her much shorter reach? Is that some sort of advantage, too:-)
People point to Sharma, Caldwell, etc as young guns who didn't burn out and continued to climb harder as they grew into adult sized frames. But if you really tease that out a bit, they didn't progress as much as we might have expected...and I put a lot of that down to growing into an adult body.
Huh? What kind of "Expectations" did you have...? Flying through the air by flapping their wings? Sharma and Caldwell have done some of the hardest things EVER done, and Caldwell has probably freed more El Cap routes than anybody. Sharma has climbed 5.15+, there is not 5.16..sheesh
and there's folks saying "but she's not doing bold routes" Huh? She's 11. People would call the police if her folks were putting her on bold routes. Besides, that bouldering she's doing is off the ground and hard as crap, you hit the ground every time.
You know who one of the first kid phenomenas was? They used to call him "boy wonder." Ron Kauk, still throwing it down in middle age.
Watch her climb, it's not just strength to weight ratio, she's got skills.
It's threatening to us that an 11 year old can crank this hard, because we like to take some validation for our specialness from being a climber, and that seems silly when an 11 year old can crank the hardest routes (or that a monkey can climb 5.17 without a rope)
We should get over that because few can be #1 and even they are not #1 at everything.
Its wasn't long ago that nobody had flashed a 5.14. Things are changing quickly all the time.
She doesn't have to stick with the sport to have made her mark. We all have different paths. She's bad ass now, and I'll bet if she wants to be bad ass later, she will be
Question for all those who think Ashima has an advantage because of her strength to weight ratio, what do you have to say about her much shorter reach? Is that some sort of advantage, too:-)
Why equate one physical requirement with another, or make them interdependent?
Obviously, if she can't reach a hold, she's at as much disadvantage as a pudgy person with a long reach.
Do you disagree that if she can reach the holds the higher strength:weight ratio would help a lot?
I've seen lizards climb stuff I can't. They have short arms, too.
If you watch the top men in the Olympics doing the Roman Rings, their strength to weight ratio is amazing. My guess is that with a few months training and practice, they could do some very hard climbing moves. The skill set is not entirely the same, but a lot would carry over.
She doesn't have to stick with the sport to have made her mark. We all have different paths. She's bad ass now, and I'll bet if she wants to be bad ass later, she will be
As a point of language, "bad ass" doesn't mean merely being good at something, except perhaps by slipshod extension.
Can we just agree that she's very good at holding onto small holds? And that at least part of that is because she's small and smaller people are better at holding onto small holds than larger people? This isn't that complicated.
Can we just agree that she's very good at holding onto small holds? And that at least part of that is because she's small and smaller people are better at holding onto small holds than larger people? This isn't that complicated.
Because it's demeaning. People used to say stuff like that about Beth before she freed the Nose and climbed 5.13 cracks. Placing gear is not rocket science. It takes a LOT more than crimping to climb 5.14+.
Yes she has an advantage. Everybody who climbs 5.14+ has an advantage. Everybody who wins an olympic gymnastic gold medal has an advantage as well but you still have to perfect the double twisting flips and such
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The oblivious self-caricature in this statement is priceless. no wonder people dismiss this forum as a bunch of irrelevant , has-been blowhards. "
IMO, calling someone a "has been" implies that at one point, they were actually someone. There's less than 20 people in total on this forum who were ever actually someone who at some point accomplished anything anyone would care about.
The rest are what is known as a "never was", and the only ones with anything negative to say are in that group.
Anyone see Ament, Gill, Coz, Long, RickA (or imagine bachar were he still here) making such comments?
Of course not, and here is why:
In any sport, there is an inverse relationship between skill and ego. We are seeing the output of that formula right here, in real time.
Anyone see Ament, Gill, Coz, Long, RickA (or imagine bachar were he still here) making such comments?
Of course not, and here is why:
In any sport, there is an inverse relationship between skill and ego. We are seeing the output of that formula right here, in real time.
Folks like Bachar and others had plenty of ego. That doesn't mean they had to put down the accomplishments of others.
I'd bet anything the lady would still be able to pull 5.14 when she is 20 if she sticks with it, the rest of the kids wonders who stuck with it seem to be able to
I'd bet anything the lady would still be able to pull 5.14 when she is 20 if she sticks with it, the rest of the kids wonders who stuck with it seem to be able to
How would you have any idea? Maybe the ones who "stuck with it" were the ones who could adapt well to adult climbing, and the "wonder kids" who couldn't tended to quit?
Lots of funny conjecture and projecting on this thread, that's for sure, no matter which side of the "debate" you're on.
Well, i'm not a genius here, but judging by how small her parents are, she won't grow THAT MUCH. She'll still be strong. It's not like a 2 1/2 foot tall 7 year old pulling on 5.12d who hasn't hit the grow spurt to be 6'2 yet.
How would you have any idea? Maybe the ones who "stuck with it" were the ones who could adapt well to adult climbing, and the "wonder kids" who couldn't tended to quit?
Lots of funny conjecture and projecting on this thread, that's for sure, no matter which side of the "debate" you're on.
Because I've been climbing for over 30 years and seen sh#t. It's not like we see kids climb 5.14 and then get weaker as they reach puberty and quit because of that. It's more like they either find other things to do in life or keep shredding it.
Kauk quit for years and years but came back stronger.
Of course the same goes of all of us. Some of us get fat or weak and some don't. The unusual thing is that we're ragging on this 11 year old kid who has done things (like onsight 5.14) that a few years ago hadn't been done in the history of climbing by ANYONE of any age or size
Do you actually know any of these kids that can climb 5.13 or 5.14? I'm thinking you don't. They are very very skilled at much more than crimping small holds. Many of them have phenomenal slab climbing (true friction). A lot of them are excellent crack climbers (yes, offwidth as well).
Their dynoing capability is off the chart. They are highly versed in gymnastic climbing.
In short, they will pretty much crush you in any type of climbing.
They don't have the limitations of needing to work, they have summers off, most of them have parents that fund trips. They have coaches that know what they are doing and they have PASSION for climbing. You simply can not compete, not that you are. I only state this because your posts seem to have an underlying current of "Well, its really not that hard FOR HER".
edit: good point below Jim, the kids are unstoppable!
Let us know!