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WBraun
climber
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May 24, 2006 - 01:22am PT
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You should give the rope to Largo for testing.
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JAK
Sport climber
Central NC
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May 24, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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" . . . about their antiquated gear. it's a brave new world out there old man. we're not using goldline, tied hexes, tube chocks, swamis and early generation stopppers. gear manufacturing has come a long way.
it's still easy to remove yourself from the world if you're determined, but chance plays a much smaller role in the modern climbing world.
You don't fall, you don't die, regardless of what gear is or isn't attached.
I stand by the "old skool" notion that you don't come off the rock on purpose. You don't hangdog, you don't try and pull a full rating above your grade because you've got bolts and draws. You should only ever come off completely against your will and to your complete surprise. That simple.
Your gear is not your parachute - it's your backup chute. Staying pasted to the rock is your primary defense.
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BVoyles
climber
Davis, CA
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May 24, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
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The rope has been sent via overnight mail to BD.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 24, 2006 - 02:16pm PT
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By the looks of how uniformally that rope "ruptured," it looks cut, but I have no idea how a chemically damaged rope would come apart so I'm just guessing.
That's my guess too.
Chemical damage...probably depends on the type of damage, but, wouldn't be such a uniform cutting of both the sheath and innerds at one spot, methinks. And, really, a single strand of innerds would probably hold body weight.
Maybe I'll get to see it...(some ultra high res high mag photo's might be nice...I can offer that up...). SEM and contamination anal? Might could swing that too.
-Brian in SLC
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fallenclimber
Trad climber
Davis, California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2006 - 04:30am PT
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To BVoyles:
Thanks for the update on the status of the rope: that it has been sent to Black Diamond. I started this thread with the hope that you, or your partner, would see it and post regarding the status of the ruptured rope. Thank you so much for posting. There has been a lot of "white noise" on this thread, but several individuals, including yourself, have stepped up with substantive contributions.
Probably no one will be better positioned to post the final analysis and conclusions regarding the ruptured rope after the completion of its inspection than you.
Notwithstanding the fervent opinions of many on this thread regarding chemical damage, and prior "cutting", after inspecting the rope after your fall, and talking to your partner, it sure appeared to me that if ever there was a chance that a rope might be "defective", this might be such.
I am so glad you are okay. I appears that you have made history with respect to being on the wrong end of the first rope ever to break gym-climbing, if not the first rope to break under such a low-load, ever. Probably not the way you would have chosen to enter the history books.
Hope to see you climbing again at Pipeworks. Please accept my regards and best wishes, and please convey the same to your partner, and thank him for sending the rope back to Black Diamond. Both you and he are class acts: best of wishes and good luck, ... and may all of your ropes (and the ones you are tied into) hence forth never dividith.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 25, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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Will be waiting for the BD results as well....
I know the carabiner has been looked at for sharp edges but has the route been looked at for sharp holds? What I mean is when I route set, occasionally you'll get an older hold that has chipped creating an extremely sharp (blade like you may argue) edge. No biggie if the hold is flush to the wall but if it's placed near an angle change in the wall that edge may become exposed. It's also near these angle changes that ropes often catch on or rub against holds. How many of you have seen a hold get a groove from people lowering off and the rope catching on a hold? VERY UNLIKELY but worth a look at the route for sharp hold edges perhaps?
NOTE: THE ABOVE IS PURELY SPECULATION AND NOT BASED ON FACT AND/OR ANY EYEWITNESS REPORTS REGARDING THE INCIDENT. IT IS MEARLY A SUGGESTED MODE OF FAILURE THAT HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM (that should cover the internet rumor-mill a little)
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 25, 2006 - 01:27pm PT
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BD does not make ropes. I am told they will send it to Beal, who makes the ropes for BD.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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May 25, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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Having known several successive managers of the QA dept at BD, I'm sure they're pretty capable in this regard. They are experienced engineers with some pretty sophisticated equipment. I'd guess it wouldn't take much more than an examination through a good microscope to see if it was chemically damaged or cut. They look at alot of different failure methods when testing their gear.
Now if it was chemically damaged, determining exactly what chemical would probably take a spectrometer or chromatograph, but that's a different story.
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Tradboy
Social climber
Valley
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May 25, 2006 - 08:57pm PT
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Has anyone tried to recreate this fall using several different ropes? Any takers? How about trying it with a pig? oink. oink.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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May 25, 2006 - 10:14pm PT
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I know Mark Melvin, he is a class act, I am sure that he is as interested as any of us in getting to the truth. Thanks for that post, Mark.
We all stand by.....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 26, 2006 - 04:52pm PT
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Wow, this reminds me of a case a few years ago where a rope snapped when someone
was being lowered off of a top-rope climb outside. The guy was a few feet short of the ground when
the rope snapped. If I remember correctly, the rope was possibly contaminated by
being stored in a trunk which had or had had a battery in it, either at the same time or before.
Does anyone else remember this? Anyway, although my ropes are fairly old,
I have knott worried much about them末until now. Very scary stuff.
Here is the photo from above with a simple Levels adjustment and a wee bit of sharpening;
you can see how the core strands are yellow末contrasting to the (now correct) white paper:
As a Touchstone customer, I can attest that they take safety very seriously.
Also, an incident sticks out in my mind which left a really good impression:
One time me and a friend were about to walk into Ironworks in Berkeley when
we ran into another friend, and so we chatted for a minute or 2 before going in.
Had we not spent this time outside we would have witnessed what happened.
As we walked in the door I saw 2 employees take off from behind the counter
and run toward the back left side of the gym. A guy was lying flat on his back
and a Touchstone employee had just reached him. The guy had just decked
from the top of the 35 foot wall and landed flat on his back. He had not tied
his knot correctly末and importantly, didn't verify is tie-in before letting go of the wall.(?!?)
(which is something I've always done obsessively末each and every time, whether climbing or rappelling)
The guy was trying to get up and was saying "I'm alright", but the employee told
him not to move until the paramedics arrived末excellent advice.. Soon the paramedics arrived and
carefully checked the guy out, and finally let him get up and walk away. The guy was
in somewhat of a daze, but he was OK. You gotta love that 18" thick foam they use!
Every gym accident I've ever heard of or witnessed was caused by user error,
so this rope-break incident has been quite sobering to say the least.
I think I'll be getting a new rope! ;-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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any word on this?
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Hi folks,
Can anyone from the gym confirm that the biner in question was this one:
It's what DMM calls their "Gym Draw".
Thanks!
GO
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Colt45
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I'm looking forward to hearing what happens with the lab testing, but in the meantime here's an interesting website I found on rope failure:
http://www.uiaa.ch/article.aspx?c=231&a=147
In the photo of the rope, parts of the sheath and some of the broken core strands seem to have an extremely clean and well-defined break point. It looks more like figure 2 in the article (sharp edge cutting), rather than figure 1 (acid damage).
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rocketsocks
climber
Bellevue, WA
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I dunno, it looks a lot more like the acid damage example to me. The sharp edge cut rope has a huge section of sheath, exposing the core, ripped off and then the core is cut. Which lines up with every story of core shots I've read. The rope will continue to stretch and run even as it is being cut on the edge, so the cut will be "long". But it looks like with severely weakened, e.g. acid damaged, ropes it just snaps at the point of greatest force (i.e. biner at the highest piece of pro).
Anyway, I don't want to speculate too much, we should wait for BD's analysis.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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People who KNOW and have seen hte rope do not think it is acid damaged, they are fairly certain it is cut.
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Eddie
Trad climber
Boston
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any news?
I'm trying to decide whether to quit climbing or not.
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BVoyles
climber
Davis, CA
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As of Friday the owner of the rope had not heard anything back on it. I see him a couple times a week so I will share as soon as I get some info.
As for the draw, Pipeworks has a variety hanging on the walls. I never saw the draw afterword so I cannot say with 100% certainty what it was. Don't quit climbing over this.
Brian
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
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Waiting. Still climbing.
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