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BVoyles
climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 10, 2006 - 02:23am PT
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I talked with the manager of the gym tonight. I guess the rope really has not been looked at yet because the person at BD has been sick. However, someone from BD is coming out to the gym to see the route and caribiner early next week. Hopefully it will not be too much longer...
B
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 12, 2006 - 07:54pm PT
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Update?
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sean stitt
Sport climber
sacramento
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Jun 12, 2006 - 08:15pm PT
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I am not sure who these people are who "inspected" the rope and determined that it looked cut. I was there the day the rope was brought back into Pipeworks. Other than Touchstone officials, the rope owner and myself, nobody else examined the rope. This rope was NOT cut in the Touchstone gym and I doubt ever. There are no sharp edges on any holds or terrain anywhere near where the rope could have been. And, as I said, the wall is steadily overhanging with all of the draws longer than the highest profile hold on the wall. This is not a complicated issue. The rope was mishandled/misstored and it was faulty because of it. I have held thousands of ropes and have participated in rope testing for a rope manufacturer and this was by far the stiffest, most degraded rope I have ever seen someone tie in to lead on. This rope probably broke because of the fact that it was less supple than most steel cables.
I suggest rather than speculating about all the possible permutations here, we all just wait to hear from Beal/BD. What they discover will undoubtedly put this thread to rest.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 12, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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Someone wrote: "I suggest rather than speculating about all the possible permutations here, we all just wait to hear from Beal/BD. What they discover will undoubtedly put this thread to rest."
Are you kidding me--no one has looked into this thing yet???
That's gonna put their business to rest if they don't get on this. At the very least they could have had an outfit test for chemical contamination while their in-house boy was out sick or whatever. I'm totally amazed that this was not given some priority and addressed in a timely manner.
JL
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 12, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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LOL, chill, you made you point, one post will do.
Other people have indeed inspected the rope, you are certainly wrong about that.
Your claim that it was never cut is not so clear, but the fact that you notice that the rope was not in, shall we say good condition, should alert you to the idea that cutting or something very similar could occur over edges that normally would not cut a rope in good shape.
That the rope was not cut before the fall seems to be understood by everyone.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 12, 2006 - 10:10pm PT
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Dude, would you believe that the rope HAS been seen, and that just maybe the dry rope theory might be the whole enchilada?
IT's not nearly as sexy as acid or defects, but most likely, that rope was ready to go at any time.
IF you want to look on rc.com, a noted rope expert did some tests that recreate the separation in the questionable rope fairly accurately.
There must be a good reason for the delay, but speculating about people being sick or lazy or playing tiddly winks does not really help.
My guess is that a few other bases are being covered, but that part of the issue is that, as this recent poster says, the rope was not in very good condition.
Possibly the delay has to do with figuring out HOW a rope can get so dry, so that there will be a good explanation of what to avoid when we store our ropes.
One more time, think about how a brittle dry rope might act over a biner. That's probably what happened.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 12, 2006 - 11:06pm PT
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"There must be a good reason for the delay, but speculating about people being sick or lazy or playing tiddly winks does not really help."
I say baloney to that. It's called "response time," and it's the professional and ethical thing to do when an accident of this gravity happens to investigate, update and inform folks in a timely manner. And I wouldn't call chemical damage sexy, nor is an exceedingly dry rope a very convincing answer. Nylon doesn't turn to dust. Kolin P. at BD did a bunch of tests on very old and very dry rope and cordage -- often left fixed on routes for years --and they didn't simply come apart without significant forces added.
Perhaps Dirtineye is right--my curiosity has gotten the better of me, but I'd like to get some kind of official test results, or at any trate an update on progress, sooner than later.
JL
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 12, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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Are people blaming the gym for this incident? If so that really concerns me, being a fellow gym owner.
we also allow/enforce that our customers use their own ropes when leading. My take is that if something bad should happen (i.e. the rope breaking), I'd rather it happen on their gear then mine...from a liability standpoint anyway.
pretty scary accident, that just shows that gym climbing is "real climbing" where you can deck out and the consequences for failure can be just as high. glad no one was seriously injured.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jun 12, 2006 - 11:51pm PT
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What the hell is wrong with a "dry" rope anyways?
They should be dry.
Do you mean "sunbaked" or "just really old" or what?
please advise.
and Lambone...this incident in no way legitimizes gym climbing as "real" climbing..
not with 2 feet of foam at the base.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 13, 2006 - 01:00am PT
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"And I wouldn't call chemical damage sexy, nor is an exceedingly dry rope a very convincing answer. Nylon doesn't turn to dust. Kolin P. at BD did a bunch of tests on very old and very dry rope and cordage -- often left fixed on routes for years --and they didn't simply come apart without significant forces added."
Nylon and other polymers will do something similar to turning to dust (crumble or get brittle and break in fact) with enough UV exposure. IT can take a long time though.
"Dried out", is not exactly a technical term, but ropes do lose their flex over time, and common dirt is one of the things that helps "dry out" rope. That's straight from an expert.
This is not hard to accept, since you know very well what happens to the nice, soft, sticky rubber on your climbing shoes when it gets dirty-- the outer layer dries out, and won't stick or flex as well.
Funny you mention a person doing tests, on ropes, and from what you say I think you will have to assume that this particular rope is also being tested, and the results will be forthcoming.
Clearly, if the old fixed ropes did not come apart under certain tests, and this one does, then something is to blame.
That the rope in question was NOT in good condition is a fact.
That whatever made this rope prone to failure is important to understand is meaningful and deserving of a full investigation which might take a while should be obvious, even if uncomfortable.
Nobody is blaming gyms in general or that gym for the rope failure, but apparently something did weaken the rope, and apparently something cut it during the fall.
The professionals will figure it out, and tell us all, you can bet on that. IF they want to keep on making ropes, and having climbers trust them, they will have to, LOL.
Plus, I think they are enjoying the task.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 13, 2006 - 01:09am PT
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sometimes gym biners can get worn and become sort of sharp after lots of repeated lowering off the biner. the rope groves out the biner so-to-speak. I have seen it pretty bad in some gyms. I am sure Touchstone does regular checks on their gear though.
we use steel biners on our draws which goove out less then aluminum...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 13, 2006 - 09:58am PT
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Lambykins,
In this case, it would seem that the biner is not out of the ordinary.
That is my GUESS, based on what people who saw the biner have reported in the threads here and on RC.com.
In truth, most worn biners I have seen, if not all in fact, have a rounded surface. But cold shuts, as in sport anchors, sometimes get a little edge, when they are quite worn, asn in, half in two.
BTW, nylon WILL cut or wear into nickel silver, believe it or not! Just look at a classical guitar fingerboard (in particular the frets) that has been played a lot. Kinda bizarre in a way.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:18am PT
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It's a cover up. Way too long for an answer.rg
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Jun 13, 2006 - 10:40am PT
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Radical, I don't think B.D. makes ropes. I'm sure they just put their name on them & call it good. They are sitting in Saltlake right now trying to figure out who has the liability. If were a chemical problem it would have been announced ASAP.You hit on the head "they are lazy".rg
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:08pm PT
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It is hard to believe that rope manufacturers don't have some type of process/product integrity certifications, something like ISO 9002? Certification doesn't exclude the lone maniac doing something homicidal, but those processes should be airtight (at least I hope so!)
Lack of response if they didn't find anything obviously wrong is expected. imagine if word gets out that a good rope failed without reason. yikes. BD just had some scrapes with bad publicity, so their reticence is kind of justified if this is the case.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:44pm PT
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You idiots should be ASHAMED.
So, it is lazy to take your time and cover every base, and work to find the real mechanism of failure?
I suppose many of you would be in a lynch mob, never mind of the lynchee were guilty or not, if you could find one.
So many scenarios are being explored, you have no idea, you are clueless for the most part, and yet you feel justified to vilify people and companies that are doing a good and thourough job to find the truth.
Wnat a bunch of WANKERS.
I wish rope companies would refuse to sell you guys climbing rope, and let you make your own.
The company that makes rope for BD is one of the TOP in research and publications about rope, and they make some of the most innovative ropes on the market.
I'll be buying a set of their doubles as soon as I need another, and I will gladly climb on thier products.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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Beal makes ropes for BD.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 13, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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i'm pretty certain they could give a rat's ass if one guy who can't just sit tight and wait for the testing results ever buys one of their ropes again.
oh, and by the way, sh#t happens.
if you tell yourself, and your family, that you always climb safely and nothing will ever happen to you, you are not telling the whole truth. once in a while something fails when you least expect it. it may not be likely, but it does happen. so one kid's rope broke, big deal! sure i'd like to know why, but if that happened more often i'd pay more attention. experience tells me that in general, unexplainable spontaneous rope failure is not one of my primary safety concerns.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Jun 13, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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"Beal makes ropes for BD."
Currently. But not when that one was made. There haven't been any BD-labelled ropes sold for a couple years now.
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Nor. CA
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Jun 13, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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"It is hard to believe that rope manufacturers don't have some type of process/product integrity certifications, something like ISO 9002? Certification doesn't exclude the lone maniac doing something homicidal, but those processes should be airtight (at least I hope so!)"
I'm in aerospace/defense. We build parts for some pretty serious weapon systems, sh#t you don't breaking. We are ISO9000 certified and all that jazz. We pass our audits with flying colors twice every year. I shake my head often at the things we ship. Our design guides are out of date and often innaccurate, not that anyone follows them anyway. Many procedures meant to assure quality are followed loosely.
ISO 9000 and it's kin are little more than lipstick on a pig. You need a culture of quality and accountability, not some fancy sounding program to assure quality.
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